Should I Delete That? - When Grief Equals Love

Episode Date: February 21, 2022

In this episode, the girls talk to grief guidance counsellor Lizzie Pickering, who Em has a special personal connection with. Lizzie shares her heart-rending experience of losing her son Harry to a rare form of muscular dystrophy, and explains how her grief taught her to live more in the moment and love even deeper. If you want to support the publication of Lizzie’s book When Grief Equals Love, you can donate at https://unbound.com/books/when-grief-equals-love/. Follow Lizzie @lizzie.pickering on Instagram, and you can find out more about Helen & Douglas House on their website: https://www.helenanddouglas.org.uk/Show timestamps:Good, Bad & Awkward - 00:02:38Interview with Lizzie Pickering - 00:15:57Is It Just Me? - 01:23:00Follow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] by Butternut Box - visit www.butternutbox.com/alexandem for 50% off your first two boxesProduced & edited by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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You can get 50% off your first two boxes with code Alex and M. That's code Alex and M. Enjoy. Oh my God, why did I post that? Ah, I don't know what to do. Should I delete that? Yeah, you should definitely delete that. Hello everybody and welcome back to the podcast. Happy Monday. Hope you're good. Alex and I are both sitting here with tears. We've got makeup all around our eyes because our guest today broke our goddamn heart.

Literally. Put them back together again. We're a mess. It was very emotional. But in a really, really nice way. I think it's one of our best interviews yet. It was emotional I have taken a lot from it and I do I feel very emotional You'll hear from Lizzie in a little bit But when I was little

My friend Harry died And today we talked to his mum About grief And she's a grief She's a grief guidance counsellor And we talk about her life Subsequently and what she teaches people And how she's coped with her grief

And what she's learned from her grief And we asked her your questions And it was amazing but when I, and I knew it would be amazing because I know that Lizzie is the most amazing woman I've ever had the privilege of knowing but when I said it to Alex I was like so I want to do an episode

on like, death but I promise it'll be good I was like I'm kind of suspicious but it paid off. It paid off it worked out and it was bloody brilliant I really genuinely can't wait for people's listen to this yeah me too but before

we get into the Very depressing, but oddly enlightening and beautiful interview. Let's kick ourselves off with the good, the bad and the awkward. The good, the bad and the awkward. My good. Go on. Ladies and gentlemen, I am out of COVID isolation. I have four negative COVID tests because I got an intense paranoia that I kept thinking

that second lines were appearing. And so I just, I kept taking more. And now I'm out. now my first walk was so weird and now I feel like nothing changed and really like yeah just like you know like a horrendous stretch of 10 days it's just over so that's nice I

cannot believe you were just holding your bedroom all that time yeah me like I'm the most arms in your pants type of gal can't sit still no but I wasn't genuinely I'm a real advocate for lateral flows now because the whole time I felt terrible they were testing you know really dark

second line. Then when I started to feel a bit better, you know, when I spoke to you last week for last week's podcast on Thursday, I still was testing positive because I still felt a bit shit. Saturday morning I woke up and I thought, I'm better. And I took a, I took the test. And you were? And it's gone. Like just no line. I was like, God, that's amazing. Because it was like, it was lingering, lingering. And then Saturday morning, I was like, nope, good. Get me out of this fucking room. Anyway, I'm out. Somehow I didn't catch it from you. That should be my good. Yeah. We sat in that room, eight hours. But my actual good involves you as well. have what I have discovered a new game.

Oh, my God, why didn't I think this is my good? Shit, yeah. Since you told me about it, it's all I've thought about. So it's called Geo Gessor. Yeah. And so basically this game just drops you somewhere in the world on Street View. And you have to then work out where you are. Like, you have to find signs or just kind of like...

Look for flags. What side of the road are they driving on? What are the cars? Are we talking like Toyotas or are we talking Mercedes? You're not speaking a language, I understand here. Well, this is why when we played two player, we weren't in competition. We worked together as a team.

Yeah. So Alex and I paid £23 each. That's the premium. You know, my favourite thing about this, we played for five hours on Friday night. And my favourite thing is that I was in isolation with COVID. So obviously I was in on Friday night playing games. You were doing it out of choice.

Literally, I couldn't buy, I couldn't think of a better. a way to spend five hours on a Friday night. It's so good. And teamwork makes the dream work. Doesn't it? Where are we? Bulgaria, obviously.

It's so good. God, yeah, that's my good. That is definitely, like, hands down my good. That has been the best new edition. It could even take over Candy Crush. Really? Maybe not. Or Everest.

Yeah. I did, I did think they were dropping as one of those countries looked like Nepal. I was like, oh my God, we finally got to go. I know, I know. To be honest, I did go to, like, actual Google. and go on street maps in the pool because it's like, oh, I didn't realize

I could actually do this. It's so exciting. I've just discovered street view. Do you want to play tonight? Shall we? Yeah. Happy Valentine's Day. Happy Valentine's Day, yeah.

That actually leads us onto my bad. We're pre-recording this very early. Very early. We're recording this on a Monday. Because? Because tomorrow I'm having my face smashed in again. That's my bad. Tomorrow I've got my operation.

Yeah. I taking my face off. And they're going to, put a new one on yeah exactly this one is not working yeah they're going to unscrew my two screws and the plate that connects them and they're going to take it out

and then they're going to do some stuff to my sinus fall which is damaged and it's been Jesus I've been in so much pain with COVID I literally can feel the screw I think it's this I can feel the screw pushing against my sinus wall I'm so uncomfortable and then it moves and then it's fine again

but like for a few seconds I'm like oh my God and then I can wiggle my head and it goes again so weird Anyway, bring on this operation. Yeah. So that's happening tomorrow. I guess it's the unknown as well, isn't it? Because you're not actually sure how quickly you're going to recover. Good news for you.

I'll be in a lot for Gio, guess. Oh my God. I will not be going out. Naturally, I'm just in all the time anyway. So perfect. This is going to work well. My bad. I mean, just for lack of like much time passing between last week's bad and this week's bad,

it's a bit of a boring one. But Dave is going to Mexico tomorrow on a stag do, and I'm scared for his life. I'm scared we're never going to see him again. Or he'll come back with a tattoo on his face. Of his face. I've been smiling. Now that would be ironic. He's going, yeah, on a stag do with about 30 other men.

What 21 of them aren't his friends? And do they know? Because as Dave says, you've to have between six and ten friends. he has 11 which is lovely but he is going away with 30 people which means how many is that's 19 of them not non friends yeah it's going to be awkward isn't it it is i wonder if they know and if they don't i think they should find out they don't know him um so that's tricky as well because obviously it takes it takes a while they're not going to like him it takes a while um ninth impression is about kind of when you like he starts to warm up um last night he was like

I mean he was looking at Instagrams like he doesn't have Instagram so I gave him my phone he was looking at Instagrams of this beach party that he's going to that I'm terrified for because it just looks wild he's going to be so sunburn it just looks like spring break and he was like I need to I need to change some money don't I so I can get a taxi home by myself if I need to I was like oh god it's so sad I was like look I'll have my phone on loud at all time you can ring me any time you like we can talk it through I'll help you get back to the hotel room I think he might come back

I feel like he's going to come back with like one of those like UV necklaces or like wall stripes on his cheek those like panier glasses from 2008 you're going to strides on him yeah I feel like it's going to be a big this is going to be a new era for Dave do you think it's a little bit late he's 37 he'll come back with like the green tailor snake

tattooed on his left nipple oh wow yeah new era so yeah big vibes Um, hopefully, one way to hear how that goes. Yeah, hopefully next week, um, he's alive. Dave will still be with us. Um, but yeah. Awkward.

What's your awkward? Oh God. My awkward actually happened today. Um, it's Valentine's Day. We went for lunch, got to lunch, sat down at lunch. My phone rang. My mom. She's FaceTime me.

She didn't mean to FaceTime me. Classic. But we're here now. So I can't just talk to on the phone and I can't talk to her on FaceTime in a restaurant. So I'm like, right, out we go. So I walked into the restaurant and I walked back out of the restaurant on FaceTime to my mom. who's in a bike helmet. Fun detail.

Anyway, when I get out of the restaurant and I realise that my flies are undone, can you please look at these trousers and see how long the fly is? Oh my God. It's a big fly. And you've got a cropped up on. Yes, I do, yes.

So it goes basically from crotch to belly button, higher than belly button, way higher. I'm wearing like tailor trousers. For the first time, when I just say, because I wanted to be trendy, I ordered them from Zara. I will talk another time about the terrible sizing. They are really cool, though.

They're very cool. But also, they're very cool. but also they're ridiculously sized anyway i'm in them now but they are gaping a bit on my tummy because you know i have one and sarah tend to design for those without so my gut brushed the shoulder of like every single person on the way out of the busy restaurant valentine's day and it's just embarrassing i was like just get a grip of yourself you know what i mean you're in your nice stale of trousers with your fucking pants out it's embarrassing like get a grip i know and you're only just out of isolate you know i know it should i don't know

I just feel like it should have gone better than that. I know, I agree. I feel I just let myself down. It's just mortifying really, so. I'm going back into my house again tomorrow and I'm staying there. I'm not going to wear trousers. It's just stupid. I was a lot happier when I wasn't wearing trousers.

This sort of thing just didn't happen. It's a sign. Yeah, exactly. I'm going to take my trousers. Take what trousers are. My awkward is about Betty. I was walking Betty to the park. And I don't know about you, but I don't, like, I look absolutely vile when I first take

girl out in the park i keep my pajamas on i just put my puffer coat over the top because she likes to go out straight away okay you know she's a diva um i take her out straight away i don't touch my hair and you know you know when you're bump into someone and every time i do it i'm like why i'll you know like why get a grip you don't need to be like this um but then i was crossing we have to like cross this main road and i teach betty to like sit before we cross the road and da da and there was this woman in the car and we were in the island in the middle of this main road and she was just waving at me and I saw her from a mile off waving at me it was just like I didn't need to see her that early but I did do you know what I mean you know

when you're like the universe is just like ha ha you're an idiot watch this and she was just waving at me so I just watched her wave at me and I was like don't know who that woman is but she's definitely waving at me so I just started waving as well and we waved for a while and she passed and as she passed she was like

this is not a good medium to do facial expressions but you know when someone can't hear you and they're just like mouthing like I'll ring you or like whatever and I absolutely no idea who this woman was

and I was like yeah ring me yeah ring me bye bye bye not a fucking clue not a clue Did your phone ring? My phone didn't ring no one's text me I have absolutely no idea

Oh my God Do you think she's... Oh my God I've just got the best prank idea of my life I'm going to start doing this I'm just going to start waving at people On the side of the road and going I'll call you

Oh my god I haven't been fucking with you Look at that tired looking woman I'm just going to get in their head Maybe but what an idiot Because I was like Yeah call me yeah Are you sure there was no one behind you

What if there's someone behind you No so I checked afterwards I was like is there someone behind me Because this makes absolutely no sense What about the car behind you Like on the other side of the traffic, if you're in an island, could it be someone in the next door car? Oh, I didn't think about that.

Did you just intercept someone's wave? I didn't think about that. I just checked as if anyone else was standing on the island with him. I didn't think about the cars behind me. I mean, you know, when sometimes I'm like, yeah, she's familiar. Like, there's something there. Not a fucking thing. I was like, I've never, ever come across this woman in my life.

Yeah, she was waving an air friend in the car behind you. Well, anyway, they go, made a friend. So that's that. Okay, now we're just going to do the steepest gear change in human history and we're going to take you into the interview. I want to introduce Lizzie before she speaks to us. So I mentioned at the beginning that Lizzie's son, Harry, died when he was six and a half. He was diagnosed with a rare and extreme form of muscular dystrophy when he was 17.

months old and he lived his life with a terminal illness and a big part of his life was spent at a children's hospice called Helen and Douglas House, or Helen House specifically is the children's one, which is a hospice in a charity that Lizzie later became very, very involved with. So too did my parents through Lizzie. Lizzie and Lizzie's family have been great family friends of mine for as long as I can remember, Harry and I shared a lot of our childhood together. And I've never really spoken to Lizzie about Harry's death. I'm very aware of the incredible things she's done with her life subsequently, one of them being writing this amazing book that she has interviewed my mum for along with 22 other people. She shares

diary entries of her own from the time when Harry died. And she, has created an incredible resource of people and a way of opening up the conversation around grief. She really, really is one of the most extraordinary people I've ever had the privilege of knowing. And this conversation was so valuable and so special to me and I'm so grateful that she's here. I did definitely hijack this interview a bit,

definitely at the beginning and I need to apologise to Alex. No. I wanted you to. You know how you have got a really special connection and it was really nice to witness that. And we did just sit and cry her eyes up. literally. We are going to warn you that this is a, it is a sad episode, but it's done on the understanding that everybody faces grief and everybody will face grief and we do have to

find a way to live with grief. And I really hope that this episode will help you in whatever capacity you face grief to be able to deal with it and to support those that you love as they deal with it too. And actually to feel less fear around it, like we were just saying how much lighter we both feel since doing this interview and we're really excited so it is it is emotional but it's also absolutely beautiful and I'm so honoured and proud that lizzie came and spoke to us and yeah buckle up because it's going to get you I'm so excited that you're here and we have a personal relationship so this is a personal podcast for me I'm so excited that you get to meet other Alex now and talk to us about grief when I said on my Instagram that we were going to do a

grief episode, I don't think I've ever had so many entries for anything I've ever done. Like, so many people want to have this conversation and to have it in an easier way. Like, grief is not an easy thing to talk about. It's not a very mainstream conversation. And so many people were just so excited that we'd be able to open it up and make it, I suppose, less scary and just more normal because, unfortunately, it is something that all of us will have to deal with and basically none of us know how to. so you are a grief guidance counselor can you tell me a bit about how you got into grief guidance and

what led you to that well i suppose originally it was harry who was your great friend wasn't he so my son harry was diagnosed with a form of muscular dystrophy called spinal muscular atrophy when he was 17 months old and um i suppose that That's when I first learned about grief, because it was anticipatory grief, I now realize. It was grief over a diagnosis. And it was that grief that happens when your life changes, the life you had expected for your family, for your child, whoever it is through a diagnosis, that your life changes. And whatever the outcome is going to be, you have a certain knowledge at that point that life is going to be different. So there was that initial grief.

And I think even at that sort of devastating news and that terrible, terrible rug being pulled from under our feet as a family, I was interested in it. I was really interested and curious even at that point as to how you survive catastrophic change. And that's when it started really my interest in it. And I suppose as a child and as a teenager, I was also interested in it. I think there was a, you know, there was a curiosity there. I'd always read quite a lot of war prose and just being curious about how people survive change. So it's been a bit of a lifelong journey as well as that being a big, big moment. Because as well as your anticipatory grief that came with Harry getting poorly,

Harry did later die when him and I were six and that's just an unthinkable thing for you as a parent and what you've done with your grief I will literally cry, think about it because what you've done with your grief is so brave.

Sorry, I've actually, this is going to be a lot of this episode because I've never really spoken to you about Harry but what you've done because after Harry died, dedicated basically your whole life to the hospice that Harry died in and spent his last few years in it's such a painful thing what you've been through but you've made it your whole life and you've made it so beautiful and you've changed so many other lives with it and I just think that's very admirable and you now have your book which you're crowdfunding which is called

when grief equals love which is beautiful and my mom's actually been part of that book and you've just done some really cool shit and we're so excited that you're here um But, like, Lizzie, how do you do that? How do you take the most painful thing that's ever happened and could ever happen and make it what you have and done what you've done? I don't know. I think my parents brought me up to know that it's not what happens to you. It's how you deal with it.

I mean, a lot of the interviews you do and a lot of the work you both do is about that, isn't it? That there's a lot we can't change in the world. But it's really interesting, actually, with my grief guidance, I find myself repeating my mum's favorite sort of quote. I say quote. It's actually a prayer, but I'm not religious. And it's the serenity prayer that's used by AA. And it's grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,

the courage to change those things I can and the wisdom to know the difference. And so for me personally, I take the word God out of it, but that's everybody's individual, you know, choice. But when you say those words in any given situation, it gives you a choice. It's, can I change this? Yes or no. If I can change it, then do something about it. If I can't stop worrying about it and try and push it away and find out what you can do and move forward.

And I can see why it's used universally, especially for, addiction because we do have a choice. I didn't have a choice about Harry dying. I couldn't do any more than we did as a family for him. We looked after him to the best of our ability. And he was 17 months when he was diagnosed and six and a half when he died. And in that time even, we wanted to give him the best life we possibly could. And you did. It was full of joy, wasn't it? You know, you were part of it and we just had fun and yes as a mother i would put the children to bed at night i had three under four with one in a wheelchair and a toddler and a baby and a house full of equipment suddenly you know a disability equipment but we laughed a lot and then i would put them

to bed at night and i would go and howl because i'd often held in all the tears during the day because everything we did was a double-edged sword it was happy and sad But life's like that, isn't it? And that's why I've called the book When Grief Equals Love Because when I started it 21 years ago Just about a month before Harry died And I knew who was getting worse

And I started writing Because I wanted Cam and Emily To my children to know what they went through And because they were two and five I knew they might not remember a lot of it And I wanted to sort of honour them in a way and give them that connection with what they'd been through if they couldn't remember it.

And then I carried on writing for seven years. So part of the book is my diary entries observing them, and they've obviously given full permission for this to happen. And then I edited it in 2015, so a long time later, because I didn't ever expect to publish it, I wanted it to be a personal thing for them to read, if they wanted to. But now that I'm doing grief guidance and helping people back to work after bereavement,

I hear so many people saying the same sort of themes of grief, of loneliness, confusion, all these symptoms of grief, the physical effects, the lungs, the throat, the gut, all the things that relate to stress. And I just thought actually is a lot in those diary entries that will resonate for people. and I then didn't want it to be just our story. So I've interviewed 23 other people about their different forms of grief. And I hope the thing that sets it apart is that a lot of grief books are in the early throws of grief.

And this is for me a 21-year perspective looking back and for the other interviewees. So for your mum, it was her father dying when she was 13 and then her sister, Heli, dying. And, you know, she has a long time. term perspective of what has helped her cope. So a lot of those interviews, it's about what has helped and equally importantly what hasn't helped because I want people to learn from this book so that anyone supporting a friend or a family member through grief will have a better insight into what can help, what they can do. With that, like I want to talk more about your experiences, but this was something that came up in my DMs so much when I said that you were coming on

was supporting somebody going through grief because it's something that my mum talks about in that chapter as well because so many people just can't deal with grief with other people's grief with what other people's grief makes them feel and the fear and there's so many reasons why it's so hard to support somebody else going through grief is there a way do you have advice for somebody if you know someone they love if their partner or their friend or whatever is going through grief. Do you have advice for them? Oh, it is hard.

I still find it hard. I still struggle when it's friends going through grief because I still panic. And I think the main thing for everyone to remember is you can't make it better. And as human beings who care about other human beings, all we want is to make our friends better. And I often think of Jacinda Arden,

the New Zealand Prime Minister, who, you know when there was the math, in New Zealand. She really said it perfectly. She said, we cannot know your pain, but we will walk beside you every step of the way. That's it. That's the answer. And if we could all hold that in our minds when somebody's gone through a diagnosis or a terrible divorce, which is another form of grief. You say there's so much in the book, that there's so much more to grief than death. It's circumstance. It's everything. It's an illness. it's preemptive it's like the grief has no uh i don't know limitations i suppose absolutely and

it's loss isn't it it's it's the loss grief is the loss of something or someone we've loved so it could be the loss of a job that you've absolutely loved and you're made redundant and that's catastrophic for a lot of people because it it you know i don't know it it it sort of undermines everything you believe in. Same with divorce. It's the loss. I mean, I end up doing grief guidance for people who are divorced

in the workplace and are really struggling with feeling lonely and they have physical symptoms. They have all the symptoms of deep grief, deep traumatic grief over divorce. And I understand that because, and it's not just for the people going through it.

It's for their whole families. You've been through it. With that, do you think some people and perhaps in, light of what you've been through you have been through what anybody I'm not a parent and I can see that you've been through the worst grief that's imaginable nothing you know it goes against everything in nature that a parent loses their child but you recognize that grief that other people still have grief I think you know like you hear it online quite a lot people talk about like the misery Olympics and it's like

well I'm more unhappy than you and I suffered worse than you and a lot of people even if they don't feel like somebody's going to say that to them but a lot of people will preemptively think oh I'm not going to talk about my granny dying to this friend because their mom died and that's so much harder for them so I'm not going to bring it up or like I'm not going to talk about like the grief of you know like people with chronic illnesses and well you know I don't want to talk about this in the wake of somebody else who's done this and and I think that people set their own limitations and they don't want to be a burden to somebody who they perceive to be having a worse time but there is no scale for grief right there isn't and it shouldn't be a competition ever I don't think you know so my worst grief

is Harry's death. And then there's cumulative grief where one thing piles on top of another and there may be a big trigger point where, you know, you've been through a very bad traumatic grief and then maybe a relationship breakup and then your cat might die. And it's a cat dying that sets off the tsunami of grief that, you know, could be your tipping point at that stage. But I think grief is whatever the worst grief is any individual has been through. You know, And for all of us, it could be different. So when I do the workplace grief work, I try and get teams who are supporting someone through grief

to stop judging. And I mean, you know, it's important in all of life, isn't it? That we don't judge other people. And I never judge other people for their grief because you see the terrible effects of it. And, you know, somebody, I've got a client whose grandfather died. and it was so traumatic for them because that grandfather had been

they'd come from a quite dysfunctional family and the grandfather had been the mainstay of their lives and so you know that was their worst grief but in the workplace that wasn't really recognised because the minute you say grandfather they think oh that's the right order of things and that a child isn't but it's their worst grief and that's what matters

so we have to learn to not judge and support each just be kind and support. support each other and be there. I always remember a phrase someone said to me, I think when I was going through eating disorder stuff and I was consumed with the fact that people had it worse than me so I didn't deserve help. And she said that you can drown in five meters of water

or 500 meters of water, you still drown. And it's true, isn't it? That's amazing. It's such a good metaphor. It puts everything into perspective because yes, some people do have it worse but your situation isn't totally relative. Everyone's situation is so relative.

But I'm wondering in your case, like for you to get that perspective after something so, you've been through something so heartbreaking, did that take you a while to get to a place where you can even sort of start to imagine someone else's grief or, you know, I can imagine for a long time you were so consumed with your overwhelming grief that it wasn't able to see that it might be, you know,

someone else might have grief, I don't know. Yeah, that's such a good thing, Alex, to bring up. And I don't believe that time heals. I think that's a lie that we've, bed from, you know, throughout our lives. I think it helps with perspective. But it was time in a way because for the first three years after Harry died, I just, you know, I had panic attacks. I, I couldn't, it was always in supermarkets. I couldn't, I worried because I was crying so much that all the time, apart from when I was around my young children, but in between I would just

cry and cry and cry and I in a supermarket you're sort of trapped aren't you because you've got to get to the till and I I you know fill up the trolley and then be waiting and I'd be scared that I would start sobbing and snort and spill my guts everywhere and and that was the panic and the number of times I didn't get there but I you know again I could do something about it so I recognized it and thought, don't be so ridiculous. Just do not go to supermarkets on your own at this early stage of grief. Go with somebody else and then it's okay. You have to find ways around it. So yes, it took a long time to build the resilience and the strength. And it was about right from the start investigating and staying curious. And so sometimes now, because I'm not actually a

trained counsellor or therapist. And I don't want to be because I think there are amazing therapists and counsellors out there. And what I've developed is just something a bit different that is grief guidance through lived experience. And, you know, thankfully due to the children's hospice, as M mentioned earlier, we had incredible grief guidance and support from them and they knew Harry. And so I learned an awful lot there when I had grief guidance. but also I then worked there for 12 years. And so I learned from other parents. And that is the most powerful, powerful thing.

But we have to stay open to that learning, don't we? We have to stay curious. And if we're not, it's too easy to shut down and to stay silent. And I think silence can be deadly. Silence can be beautiful as well. But in the wrong way, it can be deadly. and that's really why I wanted to develop this work and write the book with the stories of others as well

is that we can help educate each other and make it easier for other people, hopefully. You don't know anybody else's pain, you know, the pain that I feel that the loss of somebody that I love would be different to somebody else who maybe has lost the same person, right? Like pain does not, it's not one-size-fits-all at all. And we are going to have different coping techniques

because we're humans and we all cope and function differently. But it is like a pooled knowledge, right? Like, this might not work for you, but it really worked for me. And even being able to, like, have that conversation like you say, but it's removing the initial judgment of thinking either, they're not going to care because my grief isn't as bad as theirs, or the fear that they're going to be a burden or whatever it is. It's like, it's removing the judgment and being able to have the conversation together.

And trusting yourself and each other to help. each other. Exactly. It's having a safe space, isn't it? And in answer to your earlier question about what can we do to sport each other and what do we say, it is providing, if we can provide a safe space in a friendship or with a work colleague for them to talk without fear, and if the person listening is not going to be fearful of that person crying, you know, that's something that comes up a lot is people will say I feel terrible I made them cry

you didn't make them cry you gave them the privilege of being able to cry and releasing some stress from their bodies I mean what a gift enabling somebody to cry is that's so true

and I think a lot of the work I do is trying to change people's perspective so even in a one-to-one session it's looking at things in a different way you know so tears how amazing to release tears from your body. But if you put that in the workplace where, you know,

a lot of people want to go back to work or back to school, depending on their age, as soon as, you know, and in the case of work, having to go back to work because you've got to pay bills, especially if someone's been ill and you haven't been able to work for a while. And families have to carry on with normal life. Siblings of a child who's died have to go back to school.

The parents have to go back to work. And then you go back to work and you're met with this silence and this awkwardness. And that's where I try and go into work spaces to help translate grief, I suppose. And to just help people to see that if somebody cries, that is such a great gift. And not to be scared of it. And not to think, not to think, not to have the ego that you made them cry. So what's that about? that's so important though isn't it like removing the awkwardness and the silence around it because

that only that only allows things to just fester and probably even sort of cultivates shame I imagine around it or feeling like you're burdening people so that's really important I actually wanted to ask you about supporting other people going through grieving but how do you go about supporting people who are grieving in the same capacity as you for example in your situation you and your partner both lost a child I can't imagine how difficult that is because you're not only going through this horrendous loss but your partner is too

and somehow you have to both manage not only your grief but someone else's grief as well and I think I'm right in saying that it's it's an end to a lot of relationships just because it's just too much to take on so I wonder how you help people who are going through this and trying to navigate this simultaneously

it's really hard And I think it's about just acknowledging that. And it's not even partners, it is partners, but it's also whole families. So, you know, a lot of people I speak to, they're confused because they're in a family. And obviously, everyone's grieving the same person, but everyone's grieving differently. Because of many factors, the fact, everybody in a family will have a different relationship with the person who's died. they've got, you know, similar but different genetic makeup. You know, they might be neurodiverse in a family.

There are so many different reasons that you grieve differently. And really it's about acknowledging that. And if that can be, again, it's education. If you can be super aware of that, that you're grieving for the same person, but you will grieve differently. That's a great start. Just knowing that. And again, not judging each.

other and thinking well that relationship was different you know and again not having a hierarchy not who was closer um you know even in the workplace i hear that a little bit you know i'm doing a lot of work on zoom at the moment may and if somebody's died at work maybe through covid um and i bring the team together around them to help them to sport each other and to help support their families and you know i'll hear people saying well i don't know why they came on the call they weren't that close to them but I really encourage everybody to come on it because it could be that somebody had a parent die when they were young and no one in their team knows that but they've been very triggered by that death at work so again you know we just need to remain open to everyone

being affected and be kind to them and walk alongside them see what they need you know you can't you can't say it don't say how are you And that's a really difficult question in so many situations, isn't it? Because I've had people saying that to me after Harry died. And I just wanted to say, how the hell do you think I am? My son has just died. But you can't do that. So, you know, what do I, how do you answer that?

Like, that's the thing that really stresses me out. Like, my mom, best person in the world, as you know, but still grew up, she told us always a bore is someone who, when asked how they are, tells you. Like, we were brought up so. This is my mom who's had so much pain in her life, who is so empathetic, who was so warm and so lovely, but still is so intrinsically British that when I asked how she is, will always say, oh, I'm great. Thanks so much. And on that point, you know, other cultures do it so much better. We are, in fact, you know, in Ireland, it's not just, it's not the UK. Ireland do grief brilliantly because in Ireland, nearly every child will have seen a dead body. because of the Irish wake. And actually Helen House, the Children's Hospice, where I worked and where Harry died,

when a child dies, they stay in what's called the Little Room and all the children's hospices are based on this blueprint for a week after their death and parents and children and families can visit the body whenever they want to and it's based on an Irish wake

because in Ireland, when somebody dies, the body stays there for as long as the family want it And friends and family come in and drink tea and Guinness around the body and chat and remember. And it's so healthy. And so everybody's seen a dead body where, as here in England, so many people have never seen a dead body. And we're terrified. Yeah. Everybody's terrified of death, of talking about it, of their own death.

I know so many people, and I'm sure they wouldn't be proud of this, whose inability to deal with the death of the people that they love is because of their own fear of death. and that so many people are like, I can't deal with your illness and your death and your grief because I'm scared of my own. I don't think you need to be ashamed of that feeling, right? Because I think it's very, of course, we're scared of death. We're taught to be scared of death.

But it doesn't need to be scary because have you learned to not be scared of death now? Yeah. Can you teach me how not to be scared? Me too. I'm terrified. Do you know, I'm sure people say to me all the time how is the work you do not depressing and to me it's not depressing because when you're around bereaved people

it's so inspiring to witness such courage and so everybody that I speak to on a one-to-one basis who is you know they're often in the quite deep throes of grief it might even be before the funeral and or in the months afterwards and I never ever witnessed such courage in any other aspect of life. When Harry died, I realized very early on

and I wrote about it that I was reduced to just my breath. I was struggling to breathe. I couldn't eat. I couldn't drink. And gradually, you reset and you almost start your life again and your breath is so important.

But in a way, when you're reduced to nothing through deep grief and through trauma, that rebuilding is really miraculous in a way. So the fact that days later you find that you might smile or laugh or, you know, and cry a lot, obviously. But those moments of happiness or just being okay for 10 minutes are so joyful that you're almost living life as we should all live life, which is in the moment, very present,

not projecting into the future because I think for a lot of people who go through grief you stop being able to project into the future too much I still find six months too much I cannot guarantee that I or my children

will be alive in six months just because when that rugs pulled you can't trust but as long as that doesn't destroy you that's a good way to live in a way you know we should live like that I realise that, looking at your life, the way that you live is very cool. Like, and the kids, you know, your kids are so cool.

You have the best relationship with them and you have so much fun with them. And I actually hadn't clocked it until you just said it. But looking at your life, it makes sense that you don't live for the future. You don't live with the worries. You just really enjoy what you have. We all learn so much from all of you, though, as parents. We really do. And I would say, I've learned more from my children and all of you.

than anybody else because we have to look to other generations I think generations before and generations in front in a way and I've learned so much from them from them as small children and how they dealt with grief before they could even remember

and then how they've lived their lives since so again that's being curious and being open to what they can teach and I remember in lockdown And I don't think Cam will mind me saying this, but we were walking along. And I was, you know, I was feeling, again, quite sort of triggered by so many things, as we all were through COVID. And again, you know, it didn't help uncertainty and not trusting the future, did it for anyone. And it probably triggered me quite a lot.

And I was walking with Cam and lockdown. And I said, Cam, you know, he's a music producer and he's freelance and he does all sorts of wonderful things, but lives very much. sort of moment to moment with what comes up he doesn't plan too much and he's always in work and he said I said what would you love to be doing in five years time and he looked a bit taken aback and he said living and I just thought yeah God you're so right that's all I want to be doing in five years time who cares about the work that you know we all worry too much there's there's an amazing book It's by Professor Josh Cohen, and he's a writer and psychotherapist, and he's at Goldsmiths, and he writes a lot of journalistic articles and books, and there's a book called Why We Work and Why We Need to Stop.

And in it, he says, when did we start being defined by work? Why did we meet somebody and say, what do you do? What is that question? Because it's everything we've just been talking about, isn't it? It's like what about who are you, what are your interests, what do you love, what are your passions, what's going on with you maybe, but not what do you do work-wise. Why are we defined by work, you know, and again, that goes back to this. Should we just breathe and live and be really thankful to be here?

Not live to work, yeah. I think that's really beautiful. I think in Greek. One of the really challenging thing is this idea of closure because in a lot of therapy you're looking for closure and in grief that's a very alien concept because actually what can induce panic when you're grieving someone or something

is the memory's going. It's not the memories staying that panic you it's the memories going in the sound of someone's voice and the thoughts of a relationship for instance whether they've died or it's divorce It's the memories of that thing you loved going. And so in grief work, the happier thing is to think of continuing bonds. And it's how do you bring the beautiful memories of whatever it was through into your present life without that person or that thing?

How do you bring the memories through to make your life more palatable? It's not about closure. because actually, you know, for me, thinking of having closure over Harry, how could I shut the door on my child? It's still my child. Is it ever possible to do that, to bring those happy memories forward with you of that person without the person being there? Is it ever possible to get to a place where you are doing that

without it being tinged with deep sadness and sorrow? Is that possible? I think that's a really big question. Sorry. No, no, it's a great. one. It's why I called my book When Grief Equals Love. There's an amazing Gilbran quote, which is the depth of your sorrow is the height of your joy. For me, when I heard that quote, it really resonated for that exact reason, that I couldn't see a day when I could even really

speak about Harry. I couldn't see that. I couldn't look forward and see that. I was just trying to breathe each day and maybe eat something at the beginning, you know, that reset. And then you carry on and you gradually realize that you are doing the things you do and then maybe you're loving them and maybe you're even laughing again and and you could feel very guilty about that and I have done but that sort of eases as time goes on and with a 21 year perspective I don't see them as polar opposites now I don't see the grief in the depths and the and the joy as the high I think they balance each other, they equal. And so when I first wrote the book,

I called it a grief endured. And now I've called it when grief equals love. And so that's the answer to the question in a way is that I think time hasn't healed. If I look at a photo for a second too long and look too deeply and think too much about the memory, I literally can just be in floods in a second. But I live with that.

happily and I live a really happy life but with the sadness and then maybe that helps you be more present because if you're living with a knowledge of death and you're living knowing that you must make the most of every second of your life even if it's very challenging which of course it is for a lot of people for whatever reason but you can still find those moments of joy I think and hopefully they get more. This is going to sound daft because I've had a lot of human grief in my life. But truthfully, the biggest grief I ever felt was my dog dying, Dodger dying last year, which is ridiculous because I've lost all my grandparents and my aunts and my aunts and my

uncles, all of my godparents, I lost Harry, I've, you know, I've lost friends. I've lost a lot of people, but for some reason, and the fucking dog died, that was me gone. I was really bad. I honestly, I was very surprised by how upset I was. and now this is nuts this is what we're talking about before when you say it's not a competition or whatever and we all grieve differently

my anticipatory grief for boo are dying my dog is extraordinary I can't every day every time I think about it I burst into tears it's probably the cumulative was it the cumulative grief

you were thinking of yeah I'm anticipatory is the grief which you would have had had for dodge in the run up possibly but it's the accumulation I was so upset.

I mean, I suspect Dodger dying was... Your tipping point. What's my tipping point? But you loved him. He was also a major force in your life. Yeah, 100%. Oh my God, I'll cry about it.

But I put everything on him. It's my dog. But with Bua, I have it now where I literally, I think about her die. She's six. She's going to be here for fucking ages. But I think about her dying and I'm like, oh my God,

and I can't function. And to make it less about me, but the DMs that we had, I had yesterday, was so many from people saying, I can't enjoy my life because I'm so scared of somebody I love dying. And it's for a lot of people like, I guess we're getting to an age where our parents are getting older or people are getting sick. COVID's been terrifying.

And perhaps, you know, you lose maybe, I mean, again, using my ridiculous example, but Dodge are dying. So now I'm like, I'm scared that all dogs are going to die. But if you lose a grandparent and that pain was so bad, you think, oh, fuck, how am I going to cope with losing a mother if this was how painful it was losing my grandmother? for people who feel like that what advice do you have like knowing that death because death is coming like for us all and chances are it will come for our parents first and that's going to be fucking terrible how do you live now knowing that that pain is going to be horrific I think firstly um I think your grief for dodger is completely valid and it's not ridiculous I couldn't believe how upset I was honestly I still cry when it's been here

it's horrendous and but we have to animals are a huge part in our lives and he was there through thick and thin you know when your parents were divorcing when when all of all sorts of things have happened in your life and he has been there and so when I knew that harry was going to die and I knew I'd got to live we had to live our lives on that precipice knowing that any cold really could lead to it you know really was like walking on a precipice. We had to reset, and it's about resetting your expectations, I think. And personally, the way I got around it was reading quite a lot. I wanted, and I know everybody's different, but I found staying open and curious the way to stop the panic. So I started, I mean, the sad

thing was in those days, it's 21, no, well, probably 25, 26 years ago. There weren't very many books on grief particularly. But there was an amazing author Elizabeth Kubler-Ross who was a doctor in America and she wrote she kind of came up with the five stages of grief which is slightly

dismissed now and it's known that they're in any order and there are so many different stages of grief and everyone's different but in those days she was sort of the Bible on grief and she wrote a lot of case studies. She used case studies of people she'd spoken to

And so even then I was listening to reading about other people's stories and how they coped. And I found that took the fear away for me. And there's an amazing author at the moment, Dr. Edith Egger. And I would really, really say to anybody, read her book, The Gift and The Choice. She has two books, but she has written those two books in her 90s. I still want to be doing this grief work for as long as I live. don't see an end to it or retirement or anything because it's so interesting. And so she writes about being a Holocaust survivor.

She's 94 or 95 now. In her 90s, she's written two books and there's a Netflix documentary being made about her. She's an influencer. She has an Instagram account. You should all check it out. She did a TED talk. She's the coolest being on the planet. For me, the big one with her is that she validates.

the fact that we have to work at our grief. And so that grief could be anticipatory, and so we're worrying about what happens when our parents die, what happens if we face traumatic loss, how will we ever cope with it? And then that induces anxiety. If we read the gift, she acknowledges that to this day, at her age,

she's still working on the effects of the Holocaust. So she saved her marriage a long, long, many years after the Holocaust, by going back to visit Auschwitz because she realized she had not dealt with all her demons. And she went back and she saved her marriage and is still married to this day because she went and faced her darkest fears. And that's what we need to do.

So I would say to anybody that is really terrified about death, try and look into it a bit more. And it becomes less frightening because you realize how many people cope with it well. so you know as you said before you're not religious I'm not religious either so I don't necessarily believe in heaven or the afterlife and I do believe that that is a huge part of the reason why I and a lot of other people are terrified of death you know and I can really see the pull of religion when it comes to death and grief because it gives you hope and something I guess to sort of pin your grief on in a way if you don't if you're not religious and you don't necessarily have those beliefs how can you look at death and view death in a more positive light I'm guessing than just you die and that's it

I'm wondering how you've come to terms of that as a non-religious person I think a lot of us love parts of a lot of different religions don't we I like a bit of Buddhism I like a bit of everything but it's like having a recipe and taking bits, isn't it, that kind of suit your way of thinking. And, yes, I too envy people who have a deep faith. I think it's a wonderful thing to have. I think it's a comfort, but it's not a cure. It can be very, very difficult.

I remember I was walking along the road, and this was in the book, one day with Cam. And Harry died on November the 17th, so it was very close to Christmas, and Cam was five years old. And after Christmas, Cam had been given this beautiful monkey with arms that went around his neck. And he was walking everywhere with this monkey. And he and Harry were 17 months apart. And Cam went everywhere on the back of Harry's wheelchair.

He didn't really walk very much. He just sort of loafed around behind. And we're walking along and Cam said to me, Mommy, I wish I could show Harry my monkey. And for some unknown reason, I said to Cam, maybe he can see it cam he looked up at me absolutely horrified he was so scared and i'd gone down this track of suddenly try as a mom trying to protect my son from the reality well what i see is the reality you know and i i dug myself into a hole and so i said well maybe cam he's on a cloud

what uh and looking at you maybe he can see you maybe he can see you monkey and these eyes got bigger and bigger and bigger and the fear and i've gone away from everything the hospice had taught us which was you know when a child died don't say they're sleeping don't you know just do reality and answer questions when they're asked and and i talked to my wonderful bereavement guidance person marie who was at helen house and she's given an interview for the book with amazing insights but i said to her after i told her this instant and she said what did you wish you'd said? What did you want to say?

And I said, yes, I do too, Cam. I wish you could show him. It's all I needed to say. I was trying to fix him. And that's what I mean. Yeah, you want to make your children better. And I couldn't. When Harry died, I was six.

And I didn't, my family are not religious at all. And I realized, because my Alex is religious. And it was, it's been a massive conversation for us. But I realised literally at lunchtime today how much of my own anger with God came from Harry dying because I just, at primary school age, you go into school, you have R.S and R.S. and R.S. and R.E. at school, and they talk about God being so kind, so kind, so kind,

so kind. And I, aged six, could not equate kindness to what had happened to your family. I've softened a lot as I've got older and understood that life is painful and that's okay. But I couldn't be okay with a child dying. and as a child I couldn't be okay with that and I just there's no point to this other than to say I think as well as being a great comfort religion can be can make you really fucking angry yeah because it's like this is this sucks you're supposed to be the nice guy yeah and look at this terrible thing that's happened and it can be challenging for people who are religious obviously too can't it because there aren't all the answers there in anything I push Alex I'm mean to him because I'm like well how can you justify it how can you justify children dying and God's supposed to be so kind why is your God doing these dicky things and then Alex's like if you accept that there is good you have to accept that there's equal there's always yang and yang there's always balance but then I wondered did you feel anger because you're not I didn't really I didn't strike me as angry I felt confused

bewildered I wasn't educated about all the symptoms of grief I've learned them by discovering them you know so I felt um I felt curious um but I didn't feel angry. I think though that's partly situational because we had a diagnosis and we did have time to adjust and adapt to it which didn't take the pain away in any way but there's a sort of gradual adaptation maybe

and I didn't have regrets because we knew that if we could make Harry's life as happy as possible and I firmly I I this is a really weird thing to say but I found divorce and what it does to a family harder than anything I've ever been through because I didn't have regrets over Harry we did everything we could in our power but when you go through a relationship breakup you will always wonder whether you could have done more I have to ask about regret because this came

up so much again in my DMs. In all sorts of situations, because there are so many circumstances where this applies, there's the regret of a sudden death, and I don't know, maybe you didn't tell them that you loved them that morning, and then they went out to work, and then they didn't come home again, or there's regret like people who are estranged from family members, or who, a lot of people say that they feel that maybe they've given up on family members, you know, if people have a toxic for them or the relationship doesn't work or if maybe the person is a drinker

or whatever, when the person's gone, the person's gone and what you're left with often is regret, right? So for a million different reasons, you know, whether it be because of a conscious choice you made or because of something that you just didn't do that you didn't think about,

do you have advice for people who are living with regret because of somebody dying? I think, yeah, it's really tough isn't it? And suicide and somebody taking their own life is one of the toughest, isn't it? Because that causes obviously

huge challenges on the regret front of feeling you should have been able to do more even though that's not the case because Samaritans say that if somebody really does want to take their own life, they will and nobody could change that. And so we all have to hold that in mind.

But again, I think it's Once you get strong enough to face those regrets, it's about unpicking them. It's about being brave and courageous enough to unpick your regrets and look at each one. And again, maybe apply those words of the serenity phrase or prayer, which is, you know, what could I have done? Often the answer will be nothing. There isn't anything you could have done. and then it's finding a way of connecting to the feelings and letting them go.

What if you could have done something just because if someone might ask and how do you, and I don't know what anybody can do. It goes back to not being able to change it. If somebody or something, a relationship has died, let's do it on death.

You know, that's the ultimate not being able to do anything once it's happened. It's finding your, peace with what has happened in that relationship and unpicking it, you know, maybe through therapy or counselling, and unpicking it and looking at it and staring it in the face and trying to find a way of coming to terms and peace of mind over it because you can't do anything about it. So it's looking at it very deeply and unpicking it, I think. And that's where our silence in England particularly is so challenging because it doesn't do that.

It's exactly what silence doesn't do is enable you to unpick with other people possibly. That actually ties into something that I wanted to ask you, you know, the old adage of you can't go around it, you can't go over it, you can't go under it, you've got to go through it. Referring to, I mean, in terms of grief, treating it head on rather than just trying to dismiss it and carry on with your life and and I was talking to someone they said that for them one of the ways that they actually just tried to dismiss it and just get around it was by not having a funeral for their loved one who died and they said that actually it was a huge regret afterwards because you end up not facing these these feelings that end up coming out in another way but I wanted

to get your take on that on that phrase is that something that you you talk about a lot with your clients? Yeah, with your clients. Totally. I think it is all about facing it head on. And I remember a really dear friend, her son had died of leukemia, and she's interviewed in the book

with a 40-year perspective on her grief. And when Harry died, she said to me, Lizzie, if they offer you sedatives, you know, in the coming weeks because your grief will be unbearable. Please don't take them. If you can bear it, don't take them. because she said you need to feel those feelings

and sort of ride these waves of grief and you know there's a lot of sort of wave sort of connection I think with grief of you know as grief goes on the waves get further apart and you know there's a sort of tsunami and then there are the big waves and they come in any order and but eventually those waves get further apart the really big ones

and you know you've more sort of got the ripples I suppose, of grief. And she was so right. And I did really try and just live through it, you know. And I think you get better at trusting that it will pass, that the really deep pain will gradually... It doesn't go away, but you adapt. It's about adapting around the pain.

It's still there. And you don't want it to go in a way. You want to be connected to it because it represents love and this is the deep challenge is that the pain is love the grief equals love somebody said that to me uh i can't remember when but that grief is love with nowhere to go and i think that feels so right for when i think about like the physical feeling of when i feel intense grief and it's like it's like it's like it can't leave your your body it's like it's like it's all stuck and then it's so much there's so much of it but i liked it because it made me feel like the sadness

that i felt was still good like it was like to call it lava and i suppose that's the title of your book again but to to recognize it as love rather than pain then it's beautiful then it's beautiful it's like how much did i love this traumatic yeah because you're just i was talking to someone and a client recently who was he was going skiing for the first time and his daughter had loved skiing and it was something they shared and he said I don't know whether I'm going to be able to actually get through the pain of being on the mountain and the mountains where I've always felt solace and found solace for any problems in the world. I look at the perspective from a big view high up and you feel smaller and you can see the beauty and I don't think I'm going to

see the beauty anymore. How am I going to stand on that mountain without her? And again, you know, I said to him, if you can feel the love that you had for each other and the love you've had for that view and the shared love of everything in those surroundings, it's going to be incredibly painful. But the more you can shift it into love, the better. I mean, there's complicated grief as well. And, you know, I've had clients who had very, very difficult relationships. You know, maybe with a parent and the parents died. And so you're not only missing the parent in grieving them, you're missing the parent they weren't to you in a way as well,

and the parent you wished you'd had. But it's the same set of rules, really. It's finding the memories you want to come through. And there are always some. There are always some, even, you know, just in between difficult times. Because some people said that in the DMs that we got, was, you know, grieving the childhood that they didn't have, you know, and I do think that must be hard. And I wanted to ask, this is from a friend who asked me to ask you, about how

you grieve, and obviously this isn't happened to you, but I'm sure it's come, I'm sorry, I assume it hasn't happened to you, but I assume it's come up in your work. How do you deal with the grief of something that illness takes from you? And I think infertility is a really big part of that, and I think that was the context that my friend was asking in and I wonder if you feel like that's similar and how you make your piece,

how one would make their piece or heal from being robbed of something? It's massive, isn't it? I think, you know, yes, grief over infertility, grief over a relationship that hasn't worked out. There are so many forms of sort of what ifs

and empty spaces ahead. aren't there which is that sort of grief and again I think you have to really dig deep and acknowledge it and mourn it and find I think rituals are really important and honouring grief you know often charity fundraising as I know you are so involved with and your mum is

and it can be such an incredible sort of solace for grief and I would say the thing it does is it enables people to communicate about their loss. And sometimes when you get involved with a charity or a support group, it enables you to translate your grief and your discomfort to your friends and family by using the language maybe used by that platform, used by that charity, used by that support group.

And it can be a really good bridge almost between what you're feeling about that loss of a future. and or it could be a book or a podcast it could be something you've read that describes beautifully what you're feeling about not being able to have children for instance and sometimes being brave enough to share that with your friends and family and just say you know I've been really struggling recently over this this describes how I'm feeling a lot it resonated for me

I'd love it if you'd all have listened is finding way to translate your grief even if it's over something that can't happen in the future it can help you shift perspective and move forward with it so you're not alone right it's just all of it is like finding a way to be supported because you can't just assume that everybody's going to be there for you

and I think that's something that it's just it's a really shit part of being an adult where you just have to realize that you might need so much from some people and they just can't give it to you or maybe they can't because they don't know how to and so often we we need to help people help us we need to find language yeah yeah and like ask them to help you and show them how they can help you and it might not always be our language and i think that's where things like podcasts or a book or an article even that can describe a little bit of how you're feeling you can use it to translate and to build that

bridge over the silence you okay yeah it's so emotional it is incredibly emotional but that you know but thank heaven you've both had tears you know i just see that as the greatest gift because you're releasing it you're not we're talking i just want to sit and solve the conversation like i just feel like i just need to sit here for like an hour and cry but that's okay we're demonstrating it Jane from the Good Grief Project and I do these sort of in-conversation pieces together for companies, you know, and we're basically demonstrating

having the difficult conversation and that's what we're doing and having a cry and talking and that's it. It's not rocket science actually how to deal with grief, it's just let's bloody talk about it and cry and laugh.

Yeah. You know? We're just so conditioned to be uncomfortable Yeah. And actually it's not uncomfortable, is it? Do you feel uncomfortable? No, it's actually released. Yeah, it is a release. Thank you for doing this with us. And like they couldn't have been, but I'm going to cry when I said it, but like they couldn't have been a better person to talk to you about this with because I've actually, I've learned even so much about my mom reading the chapter that she did in your book about, you know, her life makes so much more sense to me now. Even just reading that about the charity work my mom does. My mom does a lot for help for heroes. She was one of the founder patrons.

She says it so simply to you. She's like, I want to help other people. Like, I want to use my pain to help other people. And it's like that really is. When you strip back, like all the things that you said, you know, when you take everything back, that's all we as humans really should and could do for each other. And I do, and I have looked throughout my whole life at you and your family

and just thought, I mean, you've gone through fucking hell. But you and your kids are just joy. you know i i never spend time with you without feeling like my heart so full when i tell alex i'm seeing lizzie he's like yeah love lizzie like everyone loves lizzie and it's i think it is because like you just have this extraordinary love for life which is so remarkable it's all we have yeah you know it's very basic i'm just a basic person but you're going to say i'm a basic bitch i'm saying yes lizzie i'm a basic i'm going to call it that basic bit i'm going to call it that basic grief.

Yeah, do, do. I think that's great. But it's funny because I was kind of born into grief. So I'm an only child and my mom had seven miscarriages and two stillbirths, which is why I always acknowledge

that and what you were saying earlier is infertility because my mum face not being able to have children. And I was like the last ditch attempt. And she had to stay in bed for the full, from conception and all the way through,

stayed in hospital for nine months. And, you know, she just took that on board and she did it and she faced it. And I think I've had this zest for life because they, my parents were so unmaterialistic. You know, they just loved people and they felt health, education and people were just the most important things in life.

And it's true, isn't it? without those things the whole of society falls apart good health you know i think teachers and the medical profession are the most important people in society aren't they because without that we don't have anything really and and there are many places in the world that don't have the privilege of education and health care and so we're so lucky so whatever our sort of baseline is just to be alive and that's where if you can unpick your grief, unpick your regrets and stare at them in the face and move forward with them. Because they don't necessarily go away. We're creatures that can adapt to actually

anything. And I think that's why I love my work because I am so inspired by everyone I talk to. I learn from them. I see things with new eyes and ears all the time because I learn so much. I also, you know, I've known your mum for years and years and years and I, we have talked about different elements of her story over the years but we sat opposite each other to do that interview and we just talked about that thing about grief and again it was an amazing conversation that we'd never really focus fully on that bits of it yeah

and it's a privilege to sit and do that and even, I mean to see your parents as people you know and to think of the pain my mom went through as a child and I'm just like oh my God I mean she makes I what she's done with her life is just you know the pain that she came from and the and the pain that she's carried and has continues to carry and carries every day it's become love yeah for you three yeah oh god I'm going to cry again but it had my mom's the most loving person ever and it makes a lot of sense now you know it makes a lot of sense and I Jesus I sometimes look at her like because you know you'd think my mom was cursed like the amount

she's lost and I and I look at her and I say how the fuck do you keep going and do so much for everybody else like she get everything she's got she gives and gives and gives and gives and gives but it makes a lot of sense now and actually she always said that if her sister heli who died um who was her best friend who died of the brain tumour and she always says of helly that heli gave you know if herly had a fiver left like we're spending the five one she'd never spend it on herself like she'd spend it on you know everybody and my mom always talks about heli and like this amazing trait in helly and I'm like that's you and I do think that's lovely because at the god this is so fucking deep but at the end of it what have you got you know you take through

the love that you have and the love of other and the people that you're lucky enough to be around and some of them aren't there for long enough but you take so much from them right and then you just live with that and that's all you can do and I guess it oh my god it's the title of your book again but it's like the harder you love the greater the pain but but on the back of that the deeper the pain the more the love so it's worth it right we have to find that balance don't we and we can only find that balance by investigating it and opening it up and not you know i think when you when you have regrets they eat away at you when when you live in silence it can eat away at you and you can have the very physical effects of grief

in the you know we have expressions don't we a gut reaction a lump in the throat we have breathing issues, a broken heart. Broken hearts do not show up on heart scans. And I spoke to a cardiologist recently and she said when she does heart scans and people hold their breath. There's such an irony that when someone dies, we often hold our breath. We, the bereaved, stop breathing properly. How ironic is that? And we have to learn to breathe again. We have to, you know, I did meditation and I still do yoga every morning to keep kick-starting my breathing. Because otherwise I tense up and I stop breathing properly. I'm reminding myself all the time that I need to combat this grief and, you know, live well with it.

It never stops. And so, you know, that's the absolute joy, isn't it? We can learn to adapt around it and we have to. And I think that's so wonderful, the fact that it doesn't, like you said, it doesn't need closure. You don't need to have closure. It doesn't need to go anywhere. It can exist along with you. And, but you can, as, you know, I mean, your evidence of that, you can live a happy,

a really happy life, but still hold that with you and that's okay. I think that's just lovely. Like, we don't have to get rid of it. No, I mean, to me, that my, you know, I love going to Glastonbury. I love music festivals because to me, that's everything. It's being with friends in a field at a music festival, We're having lots of time to hang out and chat, away from jobs, away from pressure of anything at all, listening to amazing music, which is such a strong emotional thing, isn't it?

And often at a music festival, I will be just standing there with tears streaming down my face from emotion and joy all at the same time. And that's why I love doing that, because I leave at the end of, you know, a few days. And I just feel like I've let it all go. And that's the best feeling. That's amazing. We will finally get you to a music festival now. It gives me anxiety. But when you describe it like that, I'm like, wow.

If anyone needs Alex next summer, she's just going to be standing in the middle of Somerset crying. Well, wow. I mean, we need a bottle of wine. I literally was like, I want a cigarette. I don't even smoke. I want a cigarette. I feel so many things.

Lucy, I can't thank you enough for doing this. Thank you so much. Honestly, this has been absolutely amazing. And I feel really emotional, but in a really nice way. I don't know if you feel the same. Yeah, I do. And I want you to leave us by telling us, you are crowdfunding for your book.

And can you please tell our listeners how they can support you and how they can find and help and get their hands on your book eventually, please. Oh, thank you. Well, probably the best way is my Instagram account is Lizzie dot Pickering. You find me that way, my public one. And I've got a link to the book in my bio on that.

And the crowdfunding bit is it's an amazing publisher called Unbound Publishing, and they've crowdfund the cost of the book before you work with their editors. So you get acquired in the normal way. and submit the book but once that happens they crowd fund the costs and it means that the book can then get to publication quicker and it creates a beautiful community around the book which shows interest they were shortlisted for independent publisher of the year last year because they're shaking up publishing a little bit so that so that everybody gets a chance so you know I'm sort of quite unknown now to the grief world but I get the chance to get this book out because

it creates this community and makes a book with hopefully an important message, get into the world quicker. So, yes, it's when grief equals love. It's unbound publishing. And my Instagram is lizzie. Pickering. I think we've just about stop crying. Intense, but brilliant.

And now time for another gear change. We're all over the place. It's exhausted. We're like, what the fuck is happening. We're laughing. We're crying. We don't know what to do. Welcome to inside my brain.

Yeah, exactly. Is it just me? Okay, I've got one for you. Yeah, let's go. Ooh, okay. Is it just me who, as a special treat, will get the pocket mirror and iPhone torch out and spend a relaxing half hour squeezing my paws for dear life,

followed by instant regret? Oh, God, that's so much better than the question I thought it was going to be. You're going to say, look at your vagina. Yeah, I was like, what is she looking for up there? My iPhone torch. and a pocket mirror. Yeah, that's where I thought we were going with that. I fucking loved spots to squeeze.

You know, one of the saddest things in my life. This on the back of that grief episode. This is a terrible thing to say. I'm going to say it anyway. One of the saddest things in my life was about, I don't know, six years ago I was on the beach with my sister. And she was like, oh, you've got something on the back of your leg. She's such a dick.

Like, you know, she's such a Sagittarius. There's some people in this life that would be so. So, oh my God, hunt, there's something on your leg, let me just grab it for you. And we're being no big deal. It would just be an utter legend about it, not Katia. She's like, oh, what's that on your leg? And I was like, what? She was like, yeah, it's really rank.

What is that? I don't know, I can't see it. It's the back of my leg. She's like, oh my God, I think it's a spot. This is really gross. I was like, okay, like, loads of people here. And she's like, let me get it. And she squeezed it.

Turns out it wasn't a spot. There's been growing hair. And still, she tells us, she regales the story. but at the time she squeezed it and she said it came out like shot out and it was like curly and black and like oh I love that but she didn't just do it and was like oh my god she did she's like that's so that is such a little sister thing to do she was like she was such a dick about it I was I want to see it I want to see it and she's like what got oh she was such a dick about it honestly I've never forgiven it but for two reasons once you never let me see it i wish i've seen it i wish i've pictured it so much i want to see it she's also prone to hyperbole so you know it might have been absolutely fine but

christ you made a deal out of it so she's not one of those people i love stuff like i know me too and i've always hoping whenever i find like a little lump or a little like a little like i'm always like oh yeah oh yeah hopefully hopefully hopefully it'll be as good as that one time that i missed never never been never nothing close but i love an ingrowing hair i i i'm a bit sick like that as well do you love it I love it like I watch well I used to watch Dr Pimpopopopper but same I don't really love cysts and stuff like that it's too much for me and it makes me just it makes me feel a bit like a bit icky

but I do like a black hand do you do them to your stuff do you do you get to yeah because when Al swims he gets them on his back and I'm always like fuck yeah oh yeah as much as he'll let me because sometimes he's a bit like can you just get off me because I do it every night

but I'm just kidding you just get off me just kidding I love it though love it there and I do the same as how I go up to my mirror and yeah

with the iPhone towards yeah I use my ring light do you it's a real influencer love it it's not just you hon

yeah definitely not just you I've got a really contentious is it just more contentious than what I just read out oh fuck yeah is it just me

or should there be separate areas in places like restaurants and flights for people with children. I'm getting pretty sick of people's kids running around while I'm trying to eat my meal. And the parents look at me as if I'm supposed to think it's cute. It's not. I'm all for taking them out to busy places.

Get them used to being around loud, busy surroundings that maybe there should be an area to sit if you don't particularly like children. Same with flights. I feel like people can't just assume that everyone likes their children. And I can say that with some confidence. I don't. Anyway, that turned into a rant. Apologies. I love the podcast.

See, initially when I read it, I was like, that's going to piss the parents off. And then actually, when I saw in the bit that she said, she wants an area to sit in if you don't like children. Yeah. I like that bit. Yeah. It's like smoking or non-smoking. I mean, it's not the most social thing in the world, you know? Bringing your kids out.

No, asking for a separate area without kids. Yeah, because when I listen to it, when I read out to Alex at dinner at lunch, sorry, and I was like, this person's a real dick. And then I was like, actually. It might make the parents' life easier as well. Yeah. If they then don't have to worry about annoying the assholes because the assholes aren't there. Everybody in your space then is one of you.

And you can relax. Yeah, that's a good point actually. Yeah. I don't just say, yeah, I mean, why not? I mean, I can't say it happening, but... No. I don't think there's enough of a need for it. No.

Okay, so is it just me or are all of these red flag posts that circulate social media, really problematic. Nobody's perfect and the fact that these posts pick out everyone's issues big or small and label them as red flags is terrifying to me. It circles right back around to council culture. We're all on edge that one tiny mistake will be the breaking of us. I say let's embrace our red flags. Let's be aware of them and let us learn from them. I think no shade, but I think this person might be slightly misunderstanding what a red flag is. Because when we talk about red flags in the context of last week's episode with la la la let me explain for me

some of my friends have been with some terrible people and when they tell me about things they've done and I hear I'm like that is a red flag to me because a red flag across the board means what get out the sea like there are sharks in here do not swim whatever I I don't see a problem with red flags for a few reasons first of all I think a lot of a lot of behaviour a lot of taught behavior, a lot of behavior is toxic and there is a lot of abuse that happens and you cannot ignore that. We cannot ignore that. Within relationships, abuse happens at a terrifying rate. We have to be able to recognize the red flags. We have to be able to call them what they are and we have to be able to acknowledge them. So I think that is incredibly important. I think there

is a distinction between what this person is saying embracing their flaws and a red flag. I think of course we're deeply flawed I am a horribly messy person that could be a red flag for somebody who is incredibly tidy thankfully for me

Alex is very tidy and it isn't red flags are all personal there are some like across the board this is the dicky thing to say I'm just going to say it this is classic centering ourselves where we needn't centre ourselves when somebody on Instagram

does a post about red flags if you centre yourself when you're looking at that and you look at it and you think okay so this person let's give an example being late for everything is such a red flag if you're leading with your ego you look at that pose and you think fuck i'm always late oh my god why is everyone coming for me i'm not that bad i'm not that bad and now everyone's trying to cancel me because because i'm always late this is absolutely bullshit if you send to yourself then fine you're going to feel very targeted by all of this and you're going to feel like it's not safe for you to exist but if you can look at it and go this person doesn't operate

with this is not a behavior that they're okay with and this is a red flag for them and it's nothing to do with me yeah then it's fine i often moan to my my my friends when people complain to me about something i've said i'm like they are going to pull a muscle they're stretching so far and like it's literally like you're like i'm stretching to make this about me and i kind of feel like that's about this it's like you don't need to do this this doesn't need to be about you you are going to hurt yourself have you warmed up before you attend this ridiculous maneuver because this is you are stretching so far Elastical to make this relevant to you

when you need and do it. But I think there is a distinction between floors and flags. Floors and flags. Definitely. Floors and flags. Yeah. And I thought it would be... No, no, I like it. That's exactly what I was going to say there's a distinction between having flaws and red flags.

I think red flags as well are... Well, like you say, in context dependent. Like, something that might be a red flag to you is not a red flag to me, for example. Yeah. And they're not necessarily meant to be all prescripted. like some are dead certs like some red flags are and it's important that we do recognize those and we and it's important that we recognize those yeah but then I think yeah and and actually that's why the term red flags exist to help people who are faced with that like more dangerous level of toxicity

yeah 100% and you know some things do get overused like toxic relationships or gas lighting or whatever you know a lot of these turns have become buzzwords exactly but I think um to completely dismiss them or to say well we can't have any of them because they're being overused I don't think that actually helps I think it all comes from a good place I still would stand by even though people use the word gaslighting a lot I'm like it's still important that

it's recognised yeah and even if it is overused and misused at least it's being used and I feel like the sort of good outweighs the bad if it means that it's going to protect people from getting into situations that are dangerous I have one tiny was it just me just to end

it's a quick one and I think I know the answer I hope I know the answer. Is it just me? But has anyone else unknowingly had a condom lost up there for a week? After a few too many drinks at home with a guy who I work with, one thing led to another. At one point he said, where's the condom? And a minute later goes, oh, there it is.

And points to something on the ground. At this point, very drunk and very dark. A whole week goes by, looking back, I realized things didn't feel 100%, but I put it down to ovulating. I'm cleaning out my garage, moving around long. getting up and down and moving forwards when I felt this gosh and I thought gee

that's an early unexpected period nope that was the surprise I found when I went to the bathroom to this day I still feel like I could die at the thought of it and I never told him funnily enough things did not work out I just don't understand why he left what he thought was the condom on my bedroom floor

and he would think that I removed it I mean what's a shit show Oh, what an absolute shit show. Do you know what that did happen to my friend? Oh, no. Yeah, no, it did happen to my friend. She obviously didn't know it was up there. She thought he had dealt with it.

And basically, she just started, like, she just started smelling really, really bad. And she was like, I was literally what, like, in the shower three times a day. But no matter what I was doing, like, the stench was just so bad. She was like, it was, she said it was literally, like, coming through her jeans.

Like, it was just horrific. And, yeah, it turns out that. The condom was left up there. Fuck. I know. Sorry. How does he not notice? It went in with a jacket on and it came out naked.

If I went in with a jacket. That took me a second. You're back of back. Like a poncho that you get in Niagara Falls. Yeah. Because obviously she just thought, oh, he dealt with it. Yeah. But I don't know how he, yeah, I don't know.

She thinks one of those awkward things where he's like, well, it'll be somewhere. She'll just find it some other time. Probably. Not me. I know. Okay, I've got something to tell you. Okay.

Here's this. This is something someone shared me on Instagram. I had to call one-one-one because I got a small bullet vibrator wedged inside me. My boyfriend was present too. It had sort of turned, so it was in a plus shape with the opening of my Vajj very painful. So I think what she's saying is it's like, it was like... It was horizontal in that. Yeah.

Asking 1-1-1 for advice while my boyfriend was rooting around me and he was like looking for a quid at the bottom of a handbag. Just as I was coming to the realisation. that I was going to have to go to hospital and see someone in person. My boyfriend yells, I've got it. And the woman on the other end of the phone went, yay. God bless the NHS. This provoked another one, sorry, and then I will let you all go. So replied anonymously, but this occurred with me too,

but with a small vibrator that connected in the middle. You twisted it one way to turn it on and twist it one way to open it and change the battery. Yeah. I was in the middle of the fun time. then boyfriend now husband and he loses his grip of it and my ass swallows this stupid mini vibrator his olive skin turns a shade of white paler than mine and he is like it's gone and i had to go to the hospital they did scans and found it had separated and i just had the vibrator sides and a battery just chilling in my colon looking like the titanic in the bottom of the atlantic a lovely doctor had to be

and called in the middle of the night to perform robot surgery to fish it all out. I then had to explain why I was at the hospital to my father because he wouldn't give me the insurance information without it was fucking awful. I'm sorry. Split like the Titanic at the bottom of

the Atlantic. I just sat in my battery just chilling in my colon. My husband he loses his grip of it in my ass. What is it? It's so good. We'll see you next week when I'll probably Maybe we talked on like, no, because my stupid phrase will be all fucked up again. Yes.

I hope you enjoyed listening to me open my mouth while it lasted. But we will be back in some capacity, me dribbling probably, next Monday. We'll see you next Monday. See you ready. Bye. Thank you.