Should I Delete That? - “When I lost my hair, I lost my identity” - England Rugby player Heather Fisher on overcoming alopecia and a life changing injury

Episode Date: September 14, 2025

Today’s episode is all about finding your purpose and redefining your identity. Heather Fisher - aka Fish - is a retired England rugby player. She was part of two Women’s Rugby World Cup teams, she represented Team GB at the 2016 Rio Olympics and if that’s not enough she also represented Team GB in bobsleigh! This woman has had an incredible sporting career - but she has also faced and overcome numerous challenges which made her question her identity and purpose. After overcoming an eating disorder at a young age, Fish broke her back and subsequently lost her hair due to alopecia. We spoke about what drives her to overcome life’s challenges, how she has found her feet after retiring and how she finds the balance of being a strong role model, but also accepting her vulnerability. Follow @heatherfish29 on InstagramRead more about Fish's work at https://www.heatherfisher.co.uk/If you'd like to get in touch, email us on [e-mail] us on Instagram:@shouldideletethat@em_clarkson@alexlight_ldnShould I Delete That is produced by Faye LawrenceStudio Manager: Dex RoyVideo Editor: Celia GomezSocial Media Manager: Sarah EnglishMusic: Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I thought I was going to retire at 30. Yeah. I finished the World Cup, one more World Cup, Olympics, and then I'll be done. 30 came and I broke my back, lost my hair. Well, I've got to keep going because I'm just getting started again. Hello, and welcome back. Should I delete that? I'm Alex Light. I'm M. Clarkson. And what a guest we've got for you today. We have Heather Fisher, aka Fish, a rugby player, a retired English.

rugby player. A very timely episode, as you may or may not know already, both Alex and I are ambassadors for the Rugby World Cup this year, which we are hugely privileged to do and absolutely loving. We have to say this is a pre-record. At the time of listening, we don't know how England did yesterday in yesterday's game. Yeah, I'm okay, but we have everything cross. Hopefully well. We know we did an episode with Gwen Crabb, which we loved so much about rugby, but we didn't feel like we had finished having this conversation yet. And I'm so pleased we scratched this itch further. Totally.

The chapter was not closed. So we got Heather in. Heather retired two years ago. So she has a different stance on rugby and playing for England. And it was just really fascinating to talk to her about her time as a player, as an athlete. And after, what comes after? I think that was the profound thing for me, having had this conversation in a really empowering and exciting way

in the context of younger players thinking about the landscape afterwards for women and how that differs for the landscape for men was huge. I think, you know, I vaguely had in my mind that it was a very difficult thing to navigate, for example, wanting to have a family or a child if you were a professional sports person.

But trying to work out what to do with your career when there aren't the same opportunities that there are for men after you finished living your dream. It was just a really interesting perspective. I hadn't given enough consideration to. Totally. We hadn't considered it.

It was fascinating to talk to her. Without further ado, here's fish. Hello. Thank you very much for coming in. Nice. You've had a really bad week. And it's only Wednesday. It's only Wednesday.

So it just happened. So we really appreciate you making the effort and coming all this way to talk to us. Our enthusiasm for women's rugby is growing week on week. We couldn't, when we got the opportunity to talk, to you, we couldn't let you go, which we really appreciate that you went with that. Thank you. Thank you.

Well, I appreciate the chiefs, not, you know, not being on strike today. I appreciate, you know, the bad toilets downstairs. I appreciate all of that. Behind the fourth wall, guys, the studio lose. Through no fault, they're not, they weren't our poos, but there are big poos. Quite the welcome for you, Heather. Well, yeah, and you got knocked off your bike this week as well. So it's been a rough week, but you're here.

Yeah, I've got told to be here. Thank you. we have a lot. We have a lot to talk to you about. I was researching you and I was like there are a lot of different stories to your life so far right? Yeah there are people say fish most people have like a high and a low and then a high and then we're okay but not me I've had like high low high low high low how's you know of a system with that? Well this week's been a low but not a real like we're on the, I think we're on that high, but now we're plattering a little bit. Yeah, okay.

But I don't know what's around the corner. We never know what's around the corner, do we? That's the amazing thing about life, but the hardest thing. Yeah, I think that's the hardest thing. It's not, I, I think that in that sentence, you differentiate between Alex and I completely. Like, I, that fills me with so much excitement and hope, and I think that's probably fills you with dread. I think it's both, though, isn't it? It's like, people say, oh, like, new is exciting.

new is exciting when it comes with so much anxiety and also just not knowing you just don't know when you don't know that's a real tough place to be do you not like not knowing do you need to know things I need to know do yeah you need certainty I didn't know I needed to know until I need to know okay yeah no it does so when I was playing for England I've been retired like two and a half years when I was playing for England I knew what I was doing every day every week every month every year and over over two three, four years. And I knew that I wasn't going to retire until a certain age. But then when you come out, you're like, oh gosh, like, I have to plan my outfits.

It's all right, isn't it? It's a very good outfit. Very cool outfit. It's literally the coolest. I said that was the first thing I said when you came in. And then you have to plan like, I've realized I don't eat the same because I sometimes can't bother to cook. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm lazy.

But no, I'm not lazy. And then it's like I have to like plan and juggle so much. I'm just not used to jogging so much. And there's so much unknown because you're almost on work experience every week because you don't know what's going to come up. Because you don't know really what you don't know. And I don't know what I love. And I don't know where my next purpose is.

So I'm figuring out. I'm in that figuring out stage. Yeah. So you retired two years ago. Okay. Yeah. So it is still fresh. It's a kind of wild thing for sports people to retire as you do at such a young age.

Because most people, when you retire, it's kind of the end. Yeah. But I mean, yeah, it's not like, you know, it's wild. being like, oh, well, I'm just going to finish the thing I've always done now. And so I'll just sit like and relax. It's like, well, you've got your whole life ahead of you. You don't want to sit and relax, presumably. I like to think of it, first of all, as the rebirth instead of like retirement.

Because it's like you're having to re, like, rebuild yourself. You're having to understand yourself in a different level. And the resilience that I think you need in sport, the bounceability that you need to be able to take the hits, take selection, understand where you sit in the team, injury, setbacks. all those is different type of resilience because you know you're in control of a lot of it. Whereas in this world, you're not in control of anything. It feels like you've got to try and gain control. So how do you do that in a world where your face might fit?

You might not fit. People want different but not too different. People want raw but not too raw. And you're like, people are trying to tick boxes as opposed to being the very best that you can be. That's very different. Yeah, I understand that. And like you said, you mentioned purpose, like trying to find your purpose. That's massive.

That always strikes me about athletes who retire or have their rebirth. It always strikes because you have this goal and everything you do goes into it, right? What you're eating, what you're training, what you're, even how you spend your free time. Like all of it goes into this. And then suddenly when that's gone, that must leave you feeling like you don't have a purpose because that's always been your purpose, right? It's so, if I'm honest, I think it's a subject that isn't really spoken about. But as women come to the surface, especially in sport,

I think that's going to get harder and harder because it's getting more professional and you're put even more into a system and you support it even more and then money's coming, not there yet. But that's going to get harder and harder. But yeah, it's a really tough transition because you go from, like you said,

I've had a dream of being the Olympics since I was 30 years old. You know, that's my whole entire life. And then suddenly you're like, hmm, now what? Like what happens? Like that was my dream, that was what I wanted to be. There was no plan B.

That was it. And I knew I could do it. I knew I could do it. Is there a temptation when you're coming to the end of your career to just be like, well, I'll just keep going? Like, because I'm scared of, scared of this bit. Or were you quite like with yourself? No, I, that will be that. Like, I will get to here and I'll be done.

So I thought I was going to retire at 30. Yeah? I had this thing of, right, I'm going to do bobslay, then I crossed back over to rugby sevens and 15s, then back to sevens. finished the World Cup, one more World Cup, Olympics, and then I'll be done. And then I'll start. Our 20s were very different. Yeah, that was my dream. That was it.

But then 30 came and I broke my back, lost my hair. Oh, well, I've got to keep going because I've been out for a couple of years and I'm just getting started again. So now what's next? So then you start planning the next few years. and then I got to 36 and I thought oh a bit of stress now female no money no family no mortgage hmm well what's going to go on because as a guy coming at sport you've got money got your family very different set up it can't really compare so I got really stressed yeah I came out of system um but had a bit of breakdown really because I was like

Oh my gosh, I'm 36 as a female. I don't know. I've got all these England shirts and got a great name in rugby. But what else have I got? Nothing. Not even got the hair on my head. Like, you've got to laugh, right? But it's true.

Like, I'm so stressed right now. My body's under pressure. Like a great name of rugby, but I have nothing else. And so that is really scary. Because you suddenly realize, yikes, I am just in my 30s and I have nothing else. I've got to start. Oh, gosh, where'd I'll start? And when I'm on a mission, I'm on a mission.

So suddenly it was like, okay, where do I start? I didn't know where to start. Yeah. That is such a good point and distinction between men and women coming out of sport. It's really tough. Guys can afford to like, well, I have a year off. They've had the income. They've had the savings.

If you have money, you can then invest. Women, you don't have that. Women in the game, they won't have that. So it's like you have to plan your retirement. But then if you plan your retirement, I feel and believe, and a lot of athletes feel this, is if you're planning it, you're mentally already there if you're mentally already there

you're losing so you need to pull yourself back and go whoa well well that's not yet I need to be back in here because this is the present and I've got a job to do and the family thing is such a good point as well that's it's never occurred to me

but men it's like they play and it's just set up for when they walk out totally yeah and also they have their paid I mean a crazy amount more right so that they can't even compare yeah so that child care is not an issue for them you can't even compare well yeah you can take the time out to have a that's there's that's that side of it I hadn't

even considered saying that for me is a really big side because that is part of the issue with transition and coming out into from professional sport into life is you suddenly get habitations and you suddenly like I don't know where to start I need to grab every opportunity I can oh no but that's not right I'll grab that one that that's right oh no it's not right oh no it's not right And you're grabbing everything because you haven't got time. You've not got the saving. You've not got the support. When I sent the email, I go, no, I think I'm 99.99% that I'm done.

Thank you very much. I appreciate it. I am going to be done. That's it. You're done. Oh, God. And then you're like, my initial reaction is like, yes, I got freedom. I'm free.

I'm free. I can be myself because I didn't always feel like I could be myself in the system. And I am a bit of personality, but I felt like I had to just be less in. sport, I felt like I had to do that in the system to fit in, to do what I was doing. And it's only since coming out, I've kind of been able to own it a bit more. So first of all, I was like, I'm free. But then it was like, hmm, know what happens? You know, no routine.

And so the first six months when I hung my boots up was like, it would be a win. It sounds so silly, but just raking the leaves in the back garden. Just seeing a pile of leaves, seeing all the leaves everywhere and then seeing a pile of I thought, okay, I've done something, I can see a result. Because you don't see results when you come out of sport. You don't have the feedback. You don't have the, I've done something, and I've done well today. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so just raking the leaves and just setting that discipline, the mentality of just getting up, getting myself out, fresh air, doing something with purpose. Okay, now we're set. What's next? I guess you have to find purpose in the ordinary. Which you never had to

Yeah Like raking the leaves You know Like things like that Your life up until then Had been so extraordinary You can't really compare Can you?

I have been really Really fortunate That I've played for England I've been part of England Since I was 16 I retired at 38 Like that's pretty That's pretty freaking cool

What would you like to do Like if you If the opportunities I mean You know A whole different world and we've got the women's game has got as much funding as the men's game

and maybe there's that maybe that's a barrier that makes this question impossible to answer but if you didn't have to seize the opportunities what would the opportunities that you would walk towards be what would you like that? I would like to create documentaries

on inspiring amazing people younger old around the world I'd like to tell people stories that side of it I think is really interesting and different and it gets I like traveling I like people to certain extent

I like people I get bored of them after a while but I like people but I like ambition I like people who have purpose I like people who are going somewhere they're not just existing

they're like thriving and they understand themselves so documentaries I would love to do I'd like to tell stories of women in prisons yeah about I think there's a real fine line

between look I always think we're one step away from being homeless one decision one action puts us in prison or puts us to be homeless, I think there's always a fine line between everything in life. And I think sports people are always on the edge

because they want more and more and more. The more you want, the high you go, the more we can sometimes fall. Whereas if you never know, you never push, you never know. So it's that mentality. So I'd like to do more in that space, which then lends me into psychology, business psychology, social psychology,

the mindset. Like, I think it's fascinating how we wire ourselves as humans. I think it's fascinating. It sounds like you've got loads you're going to. I know, the world's your oyster. But it's understanding where to start. Yeah, I'm fascinated, like, shiny thing.

I'm like, oh, shiny thing, where is it? You know, and I don't really know what my statement of success is just yet. Like, it was to be Olympian. Yeah. And it was to be the very best I could be. And it wasn't about the number of caps. It wasn't about the number of tournaments. It was about being the very.

best I could be in reaching my potential every time. I put my English shirt on, being a strong, bold woman and being proud of being owning, being bold, because it's not easy being bold as a female. Not many women do it. Not many women don't wear wigs. No one would question a bold guy. Everybody questions a bold female. And that comes with a vulnerability, but also a responsibility and a power. So it's understanding the dynamics between those three layers, I think. So that's been pretty challenging and then now that in the real world in the ordinary world whatever we're going to call it is now a different challenge so for me seeing more bald women and being i suppose being an advocate for change because what is what is feminine these days and we put all we put people

into male and masculine and feminine traits and if you're strong you're male we can't have strong females as well and and i know that language has been used quite a lot but i don't really believe that it has, we're trying to convince everyone still. It doesn't have the depth yet to go, yeah, it's male and femur done. We're still questioning it, we're still talking about it, which means it's still a problem. Do you think rugby's changing that? Kind of. I think the girls do a great job in representing who they are.

You're part of the system. When you're part of the England way, the England culture, it's the England way. It's the way you want to show up every day as a player. So that's created by the players and the management, right? I feel like there's still pressure and players still feel it on being a bigger female, being a strong female, having muscles. It's still, rugby's helping, but you only know if you watch rugby. So I think it's, and I think brands still wants us only work of people who look a certain way.

I think that is why I say kind of. Because it's like they're playing the game, so you showcase everyone, right? But then actually, who do brands want to work with? And how do you showcase that brands can work with everybody? Yeah. Not just for the colour or because of their size. Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I guess that's always something that will have to be pushed back against, isn't it? But why? Yeah. I mean, it's something that we've talked about a lot about rugby and the diversity, the body diversity on the pitch, is so refreshing to see. It's cool, isn't it? It's amazing. There's a position for everyone.

it's like all bodies are allowed on the pitch have a place on the pitch and that's really exciting and it's it's so cool to watch a game because of that but then because of that we should be using it as an anchor to them for brands to use to showcase that you can be any size it doesn't matter we all have we're all good at something yeah and why but why is there so much emphasis on size I don't want to um over you had two fairly traumatic things things happen at once with your injury, with your back. And I would love to talk to you about the mindset and how you handled that because it sounds, well, I'm going to ask about that a second, but just while we're talking about sort of beauty ideals, I guess, and their place

in a sport that they really shouldn't be in, but we live in a weird world. How was it for you coming back, having lost your hair and doing that publicly? Was there an element of like, of feeling really accepted by your team and by the sport or was it still, did it still feel like it was something that you had to really push through? I had to push through. It was accepted fully by my team and fully by England. Like the staff were brilliant, players are brilliant. But when one minute you have hair and the next meet you don't, that's really tough. Like I think women get, I was getting questioned and women get questioned for being muscular, but when you add muscles with hair, that's a very different narrative. So I found that I lost my whole

identity. And so I found my identity in my England shirt. And I knew who I was on the pitch. I knew my role, I knew my responsibility. I knew what I was about. I knew I had 14 or six of the white shirts alongside me, depending if I was playing 15s or sevens. So I knew where I stood. I knew they had my back, right? But as I've gone through England and as I've, I don't feel like I've been accepted always by coaches and they've always questioned, I'm quite laddish, but that shouldn't really matter. And I think when I lost my hair, because I didn't know my true identity of who I really was, I felt, first of all, you feel disgusting. Like, you can't help it. You feel so ugly and disgusting for not having a hair. And you feel, I feel like as a little bit of an alien

like plonked on earth and you're not really sure and people don't know if you're a male or female, so you answer to both and you answer to being a guy, you answer to being a girl and it's confusing for you, but it's also confusing for them and it creates this, I don't know, that that's how it sits. That's how it is, if you know what to mean. It's very hard to explain. And then you start to understand and accept But that took me five, six years Didn't look in the mirror Didn't understand or see the reflection looking back at me

I would catch my reflection in a shot window No joke and I would be like, who's staring at me? And it would be me. I didn't register me looking back But then you're supposed to be this strong person on the pitch And this strong player And running people over for fun and folding people like a piece of paper,

which is what I love to do. It's wicked. You know, you can just do it as many times as you want. It's wicked. And then strip it off, off the pitch, away from the scenes, really vulnerable, really tearful, really depressed. And I felt like I had to put this OK suit on,

this clown suit. That was okay. And I probably wore that a lot at England, more than my teammates probably noticed. My real mates knew that I always, always really struggled. But the others who were just part of the team, because you don't know everybody in that team. You know how to make each of a tick and you know how to get the best out of each other and how to bring each other up. You've all got this common goal. But you don't

really know, no other people because you don't, you haven't got time for the detail. We've got to go and perform. We haven't got time for the detail. So people didn't really know that I was probably really struggling. And then it would be perceived as a personality and bigger and large than life. but actually I was making up for what I felt like I didn't have, which was my hair and therefore my identity. So I was really lost. Did any of that make you want to, you know, sort of lean into like wigs and trying to hide it, I guess, hide the hair.

I tried it. Oh, you did. Yeah, I tried it. And I did a piece of Channel 4, which was really nice. But if I'm honest, it felt like a rat on my head. also can you play rugby with that no and it's really weird because every day we were full time with england so every day

I'll train I wouldn't wear a wig it gets way too hot you know you've got no air conditioning underneath there so it's way too hot and then so I wouldn't wear it England so why would I then finish training at 3.30 and put it on put it on for evening

to spend time on my own eating my hummus and cracker bread and my protein shake like I just wouldn't do that So then I'll get excited and go, right, I'm going to go out, out, you know, and wear it on a Friday or a Saturday. You know, I wouldn't really drink, but I'd go out out. And that's exciting because I get to wear hair and people will know that I'm female. But then you feel like you put it on and, yeah, you feel larger than life and confident.

And I think a lot of women probably do with wigs. But then I felt like I was taking it off and this was the real me. So if this was the real me, what am I hiding from? What am I hiding? and we're not hiding, am I making it up? Am I a different person? Does that make sense? It's really quite confusing.

This is me, this is, I've got no hair, so I've got to accept it. And the quicker I accept it, the quicker I can help other people accept it. Yeah. It was sudden for you, right? Your hair loss? Yeah, yeah, within like a week.

Oh, wow. Because of your accident? Yeah, they don't really, I had anorexia as a young girl. They're not sure if anorexia, is now related to alopecia. I obviously broke my back and was in a plaster cast and that took me out for a good couple of years

and that was stressful and started having more ball patches than obviously lost it all. But they all coincided together. My parents went through a really bad divorce, going through a second divorce. There were at the time. So there was a lot going on in my life.

You wouldn't know about it. I just went to go and perform on the pitch. I suppose if we had audiences like we did now, you probably know about it a bit more but our lives in a way were kept aside you're thinking aren't and you look at you both thinking

like I'm annoyed with myself for focusing on your hair loss when you're also talking about the fact you broke your back because as a sports person that's how it was everything that was my identity as well yeah you know my nickname became jellybelly and bear in mind had anorexia

as a young girl really badly was trying to go into hospitals to be put on the mental ward yeah so to be nicknamed jellybelly to be to have put a weight on who nicknamed do that just people in the squad like it was just and it was a joke but it's not a joke when you know my history yeah yeah strapped up and passed cash from my neck to my waist that was me done that that was done that was life that was really really tough because where'd you go next like and any athlete to compete at the highest level you think you honestly believe

you don't just think you believe you're invincible like no one's going to crush you like I'll be doing the crushing thank you very much no one's crushing me like you do honestly believe that I truly believe that I was invincible I remember saying to my coach I thought I was invincible I thought I was invincible and I'd been taken out like I'm broken can you tell us what happened yeah really simple and really boring went up for a ball yeah um someone took me out in the air in midair it wasn't in England it was a warm up before we went to play for England. So it was a Walmart game. Random tournament, random location. I don't even know who she was, but literally went up for a ball, high ball, caught it, got, took me out in the air and I just laid

the ball back on my knees, but obviously arched from my back. And I just come back from Great Bit and Bobsleigh. So the G forces and what in my back, the stress my back had on it from Great Bit and Bobsley was quite a lot. And I was pretty stacked in my back. So I didn't really move very well. I was, you know, didn't rotate. I was just strong and robust. and stuck. So obviously when my back went backwards, took the load. But the hardest thing was

is that I had one fracture. And then I played on. I didn't realize I had a fracture. Oh my God. That day. The same day. I was in the world of pain. So played on the next day.

Then we had poor recovery and we were trying to throw a ball in the pool and I could not rotate. Like my body was like, you're not rotating, couldn't rotate. I rested up and then we had the Europeans the next week and I got taken to the Europeans and, well, I refused to warm up.

I remember my captain at the time and she'll probably remember it. She was like, fish, like, what the hell are you doing? Like, you warm up the squad. I went, mate, if you wanted to play in that game, I can't warm up. So I had to almost hit people enough that I could bounce back up to my feet.

Oh my God. Because I couldn't move. because I was still playing people just go what's wrong with you, you're fine then I was on the physio bed like literally night and day to the point again when my teammate said fish it's like you bought your own physio out here

because I was on not like I couldn't get off the physio bed and they had like obviously pins and needles down my legs and then I could rotate that I couldn't then it was getting worse then it wasn't then I had Saitica it was just really really really painful

then the next day I went on a water slide and I was like oh okay I could feel that And then I said to my physio, another physio that was looking after me at tournament, I said, and I'm not okay. It's just like, no, we're going to get you scanned when you get back. I think there's a break, but we don't know just yet. So I got back and then found out I had a break, then I rested, I got two breaks, then I rested 40 years later and I had two more breaks.

So I was breaking as I was resting. Oh, my God. That's crackers. Yeah. That's crackers. That you can survive a water slide and then... But I was breaking as I was over six weeks than 12 weeks, I was getting worse and worse.

Why was that? They don't really know. I think I was still moving. I wasn't... I was still moving. I was still... I wasn't doing sport. But after the initial couple of weeks,

the first initial couple of weeks, I was in the world of pain. Like, excruciating pain. After that, I wasn't in pain. And paid your friend. as an athlete, right? So I wasn't in pain, so I was like starting to move, hence why they then put me in the plastic casks, so I couldn't move because I was getting worse.

So then had four fractures in my lower back. I strapped up from my necktorn waist for a year and a half. And that was really, really, really traumatic. So that combined with, obviously, putting on weight, combined with your whole purpose, just been taken away, done. There's nothing I could do. and then my identity and my hair loss was like

I don't know which way to turn right now That's brutal Yeah I think I've been through it You have I think it's really hard because Because the media wasn't there And because

the brands aren't on board No one really knows where you've just gone You've just disappeared Then you don't have the support You don't have you don't tell your story. So it's almost like you feel quite alone. Then you're not part of a squad,

which makes you feel even more alone. You're not doing life. You're not fulfilling your purpose. So I hit, yeah, I hit a massive all-time depression. But then I remember turning up to rehab. They pulled me out. They were going to operate. They pulled me out the night before.

And then I turned up to rehab. And I just remember this woman who was an amazing physiophore me called Julia, Julia Church and I literally walked into the gym at Bisham Abbey with my plaster cast on cried because I didn't want to look in the mirror I saw a bald head

I didn't understand the sort big and fat and plaster cast looked at the mirror I burst into tears and she didn't right get your plastic cast off I took it off cried a bit more I really cried and she didn't fish

I went yes she went stop crying go upstairs go and get good night's sleep we start work tomorrow got it wow got it so I started work the next day and then about year later I was back I can't believe you went back to that was scary going back I was like am I so alive am I okay because when I went another part of the story when when I went back so weird we had like trained and I had been in really robust conditions for a long time, like a year, just over a year, I think it was in total. But I hadn't been in a chaotic situation where someone maybe took me out by surprise or

I wasn't mentally switched on or I was fatigued enough to then take a hit. I then got selected for Hong Kong Sevens for England and Julie just sat me down with the doctor and said, look, fish, we've made you as strong as we can make you. If you get hit in a certain direction, we don't know what the outcome will be. like worst cases we could be paralyzed that's that's what you're risking and that was a real life conversation I went back to my stepdad at the time and my mom I pulled up a chair in the garden I just said look I've been selective for England of Hong Kong being told that I'm risking maybe being paralyzed if I get hit from a direction that is a bit chaotic and I've not we've not

we've missed a bit you know because they make you as strong as they can make you right but they can't guarantee, India isn't guaranteed, like, excellent, let's sign here, you're done, you don't know what can happen. And I told them that the risk is to be paralysed if I got a hit from direction. And I said, so what do you think? But before I let them answer, I just said, what you think? But before you answer, I'm going to play. I'm doing it. Yeah, I knew you're going to say, oh my God. I need to know what I can be. And I need to need to know what I can be. And I I can't live knowing what I could have been. I don't want I could have.

I want A. If this is meant to be, it will be. If it's not, it's not. I've got to be strong and I've got to be brave and I've got to go again and I've got to know what I could be. Because if I don't go, I will never know. What did they say?

I remember them just supporting me. My stepdad was just supportive. My mom didn't really say a lot. And he said, okay, we'll support you. it was literally simple as that nothing was made of it but when I lost my hair nothing was made of it like it was just

this is just what it is we're dealing with it in a way that's great but in a way it leaves you going why didn't you say something why don't you deal with it why don't I see a doctor with my hair why didn't we don't about it

but in a way it was normalized so in a way it made me normalize it but the difference was it was my normal but I didn't have acceptance I think the biggest thing you can have in life is acceptance of yourself. I don't think we have it. There's always something we're trying to hide,

whether it's our skin. I get really bad eczema, whether it's skin, whether it's that bald head. I can't, but the thing is you can't hide some things. And they're the people. It's almost like a silent, on the outside, like sitting here,

I look fine. But I know inside I'm struggling. And we all fight these silent battles with our skin or a hair loss or how we feel about something. Because in a world where, People are trying to find connection, especially with gender at the moment,

people are trying to find a connection. If they don't understand what they see, I don't think people can connect. If they can't connect and they don't understand, they question. And when they question, they judge. And they haven't asked the question, they haven't listened. They've just judged.

And it's the one thing. If we could just lead of kindness, be a different world. I think you're right. I think we're not good at understand. We're not good at processing things when we don't understand them. But we have to understand that we can't understand everything. I don't understand everything.

I don't understand why I've got no hair. I don't understand. I look after myself. I eat well. I get really bad eczema. I get, we get really sad when I've got bad skin. I'm a bald head.

I can't have both. And then I can't go to the gym because then I can't be overweight either. I have to feel good about myself. I have to find the good. I have to find the opportunity myself. But we aren't very good at that. I think as a female, it's even harder because we do put on weight. We do hold weight.

We are a different body shape. It doesn't mean it's not good or bad. It's just what people are. And there needs to be an acceptance piece. I just don't know how we get there. Hearing your story, it sounds like the part that so many people will be able to relate to is the insecurity and the confusion about who you're meant to be and how you're meant to feel amazing within that.

And obviously the unrelatable part is the fact that you've like been in the Olympics and played for England rugby and been an incredible athlete there. But it really shows that when you found your purpose and when you were sure of your purpose, everything else was kind of secondary. Definitely. And you could live through your... And it's a heartbreak, but it's probably in the long run, hope it will be healing for you as you find another one. But I think for people listening,

you know, saying how this conversation will help, the fact that you found your purpose and found peace within your purpose for all those years is quite, it was incredibly profound. I think you put it quite nicely. Well done. Thank you so much. I think, yeah, I live through my purpose. You're right. But everything was second. England was fast. It was always England fast. It was always reached my potential, being the very best I could be. And then it was on my hair. or my anorexia, and we're broken back. And they're just some of the things, you know. But I think, yeah, like you said, when you find your purpose,

you're so driven to that one thing that it wasn't, it just couldn't stop me. I believe that things affect us, but we can't allow things to stop us. We just can't. We've still got to put two feet forward. Not the same time because we'll fall over. We've still got to put our feet forward. And if it's not for yourself, I think it's got to be for everybody else around you,

for every other female. Like I represent England, not just for myself, but for everybody else who's come before us, if the girls win the World Cup this year, they should do, then brilliant. But they wouldn't be where they were without all these pioneers right behind them who played rugby and won the World Cup

and didn't even get recognised for it. If our girls win this World Cup, okay, and they get MBEs, then the squad that won in 94 should also get MVEs. because they wouldn't be where they were never recognized and they should be we should be celebrating the roads and the paths

that we've been on because women are carving the way men have done their bit and we need that that should continue that needs continue but women come on we need to support women and carve the way and be the way if you can't carve the way then be the way which is what we're being at the same time

it's like you're carving and you're being all at once right but we're used to juggling so it's okay but it's recognition and it's doing it for the doing it for everybody else empowering people around you and that's a choice that's a conscious choice not a 5% of what we do is is unconscious so how how present how conscious can we be in that 5% so it becomes a 20 30% conscious to empower everybody else around us you you touched on something there that I wanted to ask you about which is the fact that now you know the women's rugby team is really, it's hit the mainstream in a way that it just never has before. And in a way that

didn't happen when you were playing, does that feel hard? Yeah, of course. There was much less recognition, right? I don't know, it's different. So I've been out two and a half. I'm onto my third year, I think nearly, right? Not counting, but I think it's about three years. But I was sevens and 15s. So sevens on the main stage, hundreds, thousands of people in Hong Kong, Dubai. So you're used to those stadiums being full And you play alongside the men That's in sevens But in 15s

The recognition wasn't there at all I swam between sevens and 15s Got to a final in 2010 But I broke my thumb in the semi-final So I pulled this thumb So I was pulled out the final And then we won the 2014 World Cup In Paris

In France But again We had a good audience But wasn't really backed by the media I think it's one of these things that people didn't really, women weren't, women weren't where, it wasn't about rugby, women just weren't where they were five years ago. We've moved forward as women in five years, haven't we?

So I think every female is probably getting more and more because it's all moving forward, it's all progressing. It frustrates me because it's like, man, to have, you know, to be an alopecia, strong female are now on the world stage, people would start to normalize alopecia because they would just see it on the pitch. so it would make almost my life a lot easier I'd probably get chucked out of a lot less toilets

and it'd feel more accepting but apart from that I know I've been a I know I've been a pretty good big dog in my game and I'm well respected for what I did and what I do and that has to become that that is bigger than an audience watching you

you don't have to be the biggest to the best to be on the spotlight right you can be you can still be in the spotlight in your own spotlight And I think sometimes about understanding the game's moving forward and that's brilliant for the girls, the girls deserve it, the sport deserves it, the future deserves it,

future girls, future guys. And I think in a way, success will be when a young boy or a young girl can grow up and just be whatever they want to be and they don't question the gender. That would be when we made it and when guys are watching footage of girls and girls are watching footage of guys. We've only ever had footage of guys to watch. But now if you can grow up and be a young boy or girl

and you're watching footage of girls to get better, that's wicked, right? So it's really good for the sport. Of course it's hard because it's like, oh man, I could be in the spotlight again. And I miss the spotlight, of course. You miss, put my English shirt on. I miss smashing people.

You miss running out for your country and absolutely like giving everything you've got and going, oh, okay, thank God that's over. You know, it's a bit of a relief. So you miss that side of it. But every athlete, every player, has to come to where I am now and we all end up in the same place

what's next what's my other purpose going to be where am I going to drive this platform that I've had for years which has been sport how am I going to drive that platform but somewhere else how am I going to create my own spot

like for other people to follow and I'm not a big hey look at me hey look at me so I don't like that I wouldn't I'm not someone who would just do videos and of myself all the time I find that pretty difficult and I think that comes down to the fact that I haven't really accepted myself.

I'm getting there. Okay. But I am not there yet. That's fair enough. You've got a huge recalibration. Hair loss aside, your career, you know, to where we were at the beginning of the episode, like your identity is your career and your career's changed. That's huge.

Yeah, it's pretty big. I think there's huge power in knowing that you're not there yet and admitting it. Yeah. I think I'm fortunate enough to know that I've come out and all my work. workers away from rugby, which is brilliant because it's normalising and I'm just being pulled up for being good, which is what I love. So it's finding my right people. It's understanding that I haven't got to train every day, although I feel weird not train in. It's understanding that my life is shifted and that's okay. It's all okay, right? Can I ask about your body

image? Yeah, I struggle with that. Yeah. Did you feel that rugby was a big part of the healing for you from your eating disorder. Yeah, of course, because I got to work on my body every day. I had time to work on it. Now, I've gone from a six-pack to a four-pack. Sometimes a six-pack comes out, not very often. I've discovered I love chips. I love chips.

Chips are so good. Chips are great. Oh, my God, I've been having, like, I had chips every day in Greece. Oh, my God. They're like, I hate herbs. and they had herbs in them with feta oh my gosh so good

have you ever put soy sauce on chips oh that sounds gorgeous guys it's so fucking good I'm not sure and a bit of mayo really I never done it with the mayo but to try it if you're on this journey

you might as well like what have you got to lose I can't believe how much chips chips are sensational so good the other day I had a battered chip do you want them fat or thin well I like

I've discovered I like all chips okay and you don't discriminate the battered ones were insane They were so good as like having a mini like a mini moment

but chips but yeah I do sugar with body image of course like I don't think anorexia I don't think an in a need disorder

ever leaves you ever the difference is it doesn't own me and when I threatened to put into a mental ward and to be fed off a drip I managed to escape that

somehow and direct it all into being an England player I don't know and now Now I'm here and I do, I do struggle to eat. I do struggle to put freedom on mouth, especially when I'm upset or I feel sad. I feel lost or I've noticed that I just don't eat.

I'll go a whole day and I'll be like, I've got a headache and I struggle like ADHD and I'm like, I can't collaborate my emotions. And then my girlfriend will go, you haven't eaten any of you? Is that a conscious choice? No. I just don't think about it. Oh, right, yeah. I don't know.

I just don't think about it. If someone cooked for me, I'll eat it. I don't eat. And I'm like, what we're doing? Am I overstepping to say that maybe when you had the team, you were cared for in that sense and you were looked after? Yeah, he got it. Yeah.

So even though, so 15s is hit a milestone, right, in terms of what you're seeing. But I was 15s and 7s, and before that was Bob Slay. So I came out of uni I went straight into bobsleigh full time Bob'saying's so dangerous It's crackers It's insane Have you ever seen it

No don't think I have It's crackers I know a guy who lost his leg Head It's crackers Oh like Hey fish You're gonna put yourself

And you're gonna get down there Ice at 90 miles an hour I'll see at the bottom We're gonna Google it And you're gonna fucking hate it It's ridiculous I was sequencing my own helmet Oh my God

I passed out And I went around the carousel Flew my head back And I was like passed out sit and I could hear fish put you put the brakes on

fish the brakes and I'm like oh that's horrible sick of my own hair I thought those toilet sounds stairs were bad but being sick of your own helmet it's pretty that's a low point it's pretty high

but yeah that was like so I was full time in bobsleigh so that was all managed my food was all managed and then crossed over to England Sevens for a year because leading to a World Cup that was all managed

it crossed back over to 15s for a World Cup that was all managed and sevens went part-time that was managed and went back to 15s then under the World Cup managed again so I've actually, because I've did both I ended up being managed quite a lot

I probably needed managing some would argue quite rogue but a nice rogue just have high energy you know I've got that that's fine sometimes I have to like release it they had to get it out and I go I just have you got an ice bath off yeah that's how I get mine out

when I'm like it's getting ice bath off I just I play for it or like sometimes I just like sick my head and someone's like stomach go ugh I should like bounce off someone's shoulder this is very relatable to me I like that do you know where it comes from I just can't like I suppose now I can't run over people or I was going to say sure people like the way I'm yeah you know they need to have something they need to create a nice sort of like commune where like ex-rugby players can go to get out with your anger and be cooked for in a way that makes you feel supported it's hard because you leave a system everything's done for you you know where you want to be at what time and if you don't know you follow your mate

and that was me I didn't know where I was going didn't know we had training so come on for sure you get oh you know because that's the doms by the way that sound is doms so if you're aching that much you get up go to training and then you're training then you know you're going to go straight from there, change the room, straight back home, go again the next day. And so I haven't got to think about food. You haven't got to think about what I'm going to wear. I don't have got to think about anything. Now I'm like, oh, spussy.

Chit, better chips, yeah. Holidays chips. Do what I want. But then that comes of responsibility of, oh, my gosh, the body image, oh, my gosh, losing six-pack. Oh, my gosh, like clothes are changing. Size is changing. I'm still pretty strong so I'm happy with that

I'd say four packs pretty cool I can dream I quite like having a six pack it's quite nice it's so badass when a woman has a six pack I just can't go

it's so cool it's so cool and so impressive well I'm really excited to see what happens next for you what do you think what happened next where do you think I'm going to go

do you hear that yeah I'll be right to even think What was that a shoulder? Not the one that got hit by a car the other day. That was the one. As long as it's not your back as well. Where do you reckon I'll end up?

What do you reckon? I would love to see you commentating the sport, to be honest. Yeah, I was going to... Sports punditry would be so good. Ask, have you ever been approached for that? I don't do much commentary. It's not been my dream job. Do you have to have training for commentary?

Babe, you can't train personality. I would be at such a shit commentator I get so distracted I'd say focus would be the issue there right So that's my issue Yeah I'm like sometimes I think I'm about to say something

I don't think for I speak I just speak I don't plan what I just You look so different And your hair's like that Do I? You just yeah take a look Hello

Than what Than back Do you don't think If I got massive ears And no one's told me about It's like We're okay about everything You know what I mean

Oh, yeah. Aria has never stopped growing as well, so you're in trouble. Are they? And they didn't even know they were that big, now I've got a complex. They do, don't they? They keep growing creme. Is it an un-known as well? Yeah, I don't know it's weird, isn't it?

And testicles. Not I haven't got any, but I believe they just keep going down, yeah. Gravity is a cruel mistress. Donker. I like to have them just for a day. Wouldn't we all. What a play. So much fun.

It would be, wouldn't it? You'd do anything with it. I don't think you can actually do that much with it, though. Like I think, no, I think you wave it around a couple of times and you'd be like, do a few helicopters. And then be like,

oh, it's actually quite comfortable probably. It's this thing dang like that. And I didn't know that guys could buy trousers that hang to the left or the right. Yeah, do you dress on the left or the right? That's what they ask. No way. You didn't know that?

If they tailor a suit, they say, do you, my friend was a tailor. So she always had to diplomatically ask and they say, do you dress on the left or the right? And it means where do you put you in it? No way. And what if you're ambidextrous? I think you,

would get that answer from time to time. Maybe we should interview her. It's quite interesting job. Maybe it's quite a short conversation. Oh my God. I actually never thought about where it, like, yeah. I didn't realize it had to sit to one side. You can't tell it with hanging down the middle.

What about the scene? Yeah. See, I always thought it hung down the middle until. Well, maybe some people don't even hang, do they? Well, it depends. Yeah, I might sit. Perch. Plurge.

I think I'd put some face painting on it. But if you had it for a day? oh my god like um you could put like elephant in it and make it look like a big trunk you're very complimentary of yourself in this in this imagination my big trunk most of it's been a stupid place to end I know I can't believe that this is how after such a brilliant interview from you this is how we're ending but thank you so much

there was it's been great start to it's been nice I was about saying hanging out of you but I was thinking about it. Hanging around. We're going to put the link to your Instagram in the show notes so people can come and follow along to see whatever it is that you do do next. What's this space? Thank you so much.

Thank you very much. Should I delete that as part of the ACAS creator network?