Should I Delete That? - When IVF doesn’t work out... with Anna Hart

Episode Date: April 20, 2025

When it comes to IVF - the narrative can often be to keep going and going, and going until you have a baby. Sometimes, however, the more sensible decision is to stop - and that is what was right for Anna Hart and her husband. Anna is content creator, interiors planner and digital strategist. After starting her IVF journey during lockdown, and after three unsuccessful rounds - they made the decision to stop. This is a side of the IVF conversation we don’t often hear about - Anna tells us about what she went through and how she has found happiness after coming out the other side of IVF without a baby. Follow @annaelerihart on Instagram Read Anna's piece "things i wish i knew about ivf" on her Substack. She is donating all paid subscriber revenue to Tommy's during April 2025.Find out more about all of Anna’s work hereIf you'd like to get in touch, you can email us on [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram:@shouldideletethat@em_clarkson@alexlight_ldnShould I Delete That is produced by Faye LawrenceStudio Manager: Dex RoyVideo Editor: Celia GomezSocial Media Manager: Emma-Kirsty FraserMusic: Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I turned 40 last year, and I never expected to see out my 30s without children. I was completely destroyed, like emotionally, physically. Hello, and welcome back to Should I Delete That? I'm Em Clarkson. I'm Alex Light. Today, we're continuing our discussion about IVF. So at the end of last year, I shared my IVF story here on the podcast, and you can go back and listen to that episode if you haven't already, if you want to.

And after the episode went live, Today's guest, Anna Hart, got in touch about sharing her own story of IVF, which is different to mine. Anna is a content creator, interior planner and digital strategist. She and her husband started their IVF journey during lockdown and after three unsuccessful rounds, they made the decision to stop. Now, this is the side of the IVF conversation that we don't often hear about. Anna talks us through what she went through and how she's found happiness and peace after coming out of the other side of IVF without a baby. We really hope you enjoy this episode. Is it Anna?

Hi, Anna. Welcome to the podcast. Hi. We're really happy to have you here. I'm thrilled to be here. Oh, you're in today to talk about something very specific. Yes. After my episode about IVF went live, we started chatting about IVF.

And I asked you if you'd be comfortable to come on the podcast and talk to us because you have a story that's different to mine with IVF. And it's a story where IVF didn't work out. Yes. And I think it's really important that we like acknowledge that this is, this is very often what happens and that we explore this conversation as well because I think a lot of the time, the story, the narrative revolves around like IVF, like success, the success stories. Like that's what we hear.

It's kind of just keep going, isn't it? Like you're kind of told to keep going. Yeah. And actually, certainly in my case, sometimes the most sensible decision is to not. And that's what I did. And that's really interesting. Yeah. That's really interesting. And I, sorry to like bring it back to me for a second, but like I always wonder what I would have done if it had kept not working. We're like,

I feel like I'm the kind of person that would just go and go and go and go. Yeah. But that's why I'm like in awe that you made the, and we're jumping forward and we want to hear like your whole story. But it's, I think it's incredible that you made that decision for you, for your mental health and for your relationship. But yeah. Anyway, let's go back to the beginning. Yes. And if you could just tell us your story. story in as you know as much detail as you're comfortable to sure um obviously acknowledging that your husband is not here and can't like um told from his side but yeah so my husband and i are both quite a type personalities and we are people that if we've really put our mind to something and wanted something we've got it like that's not to say that there haven't been challenges

along the way but this having not worked is the first time i think in either of our lives where we haven't necessarily had what we've got, what wanted, that's been quite weird just as a thing. Like, it doesn't, irrespective of whether that's children or whatever topic, that mentally has probably been the most challenging thing. I didn't expect it to be difficult to have kids. I don't think my husband did either. I actually, in a previous relationship, defied the myths of contraception and, you know, got pregnant and made the decision to terminate, which I don't regret at all. It was the right

decision. And I think my partner at the time would say the same thing. But we started trying. And my problem was never getting pregnant. It was staying pregnant. And we got to the point where it was kind of like I had essentially recurrent miscarriages. And we thought that we needed some help. We got some help. We had an amazing doctor and actually, for me to say that my doctor was amazing after what became three failed rounds, I think is testament to him. But he was incredible and he actually very much supported our decision at the end. But we went through, we did it in COVID and beyond. So we started, I think, in, I always lose track over that period of time of like 2020 to 20th, 22 and what was that? I think we started towards.

the end of 2020, early 2021, and it essentially consumed our lives for two years, like just constant, the conveyor belt. And my husband and I made the decision that we would do three rounds. We said that at the beginning. Can I ask, do you mean three retrievals and transfers? Three retrievals and transfers. So we did more transfers than that. Okay. We did, we got quite far with each time we did actually get closer and the last time was felt weirdly felt heavier because we did get quite far we'd lost the baby but I think it was almost the right time to stop because it was like I was completely destroyed like emotionally physically I don't even and that was what I could recognise in the moment kind of in the moment kind of in the

moment, I was like, I don't feel that great. I look back and I was a mess. Like, and where I'd got to is if I could get as far as 14, 15 weeks, I'm like, if I'd got to 40 weeks, I don't know what would be left of me as a person because the neurosis around pregnancy was real. And pregnancy was not fun for me. Pregnancy was worry. I was really ill. Like, I don't think my husband would have mind saying our relationship really struggled. I don't know what world I'd be bringing a child into because I don't know what of me would have been left to be honest. And that sounds and actually, no, I mean that as literally as I say it. Like it was pretty bad. The decision to do three rounds was that something that you did together sort of like, did you communicate well

to make that decision? It was quite funny actually because I don't know why we picked three. We just kind of said that's what we're doing. And that was at the very beginning before any treatment. I don't actually know, if I'm honest. But like, I think there was it, we did it privately and there was a financial part to it as well, I think. Although, to be honest, that wasn't the main motivation. But that said, having done three rounds and all that goes with it, because it's not just the cost of IVF, it's the

acupuncture it's the supplements it's the very weird lotions and potions that you think you have to do like all of this stuff I mean I think we worked out we got close to a hundred grand like and and we had various bodily fluids shipped off to various countries and continents like to get I mean we went we went for it yeah and the the thing was I think the reason that it was so easy to make the decision is that no one could give us a reason like there wasn't anything wrong and within those three rounds we did actually find a few things that we could fix so to speak so we did and it was still no outcome i think if we'd got to the end of three rounds and it had been like right from looking at everything we've worked out

where you're going wrong like if we do it next time we can do things differently but the reality is i'd just be doing the same again but and it was the same odds and the same chances and And there's all sorts of, I mean, I'm sure you guys have kind of covered this kind of thing before, but statistics for anything to do with fertility are just so rogue because the reality is, as my doctor always said, we will never know what average looks like because at the end of the day, there are millions of women who have successful pregnancies who never enter a hospital. So it's for us to even know, even when you're trying to do it by age or whatever, how can you possibly know what average looks like?

Because it's average of people that walk into a hospital. It's not the average of the general population. So, yeah, for us, we just kind of went, this isn't, it's just isn't for us. Like, isn't for us. And it was weird how easy that was, actually. Like, I actually felt relieved. I was going to ask, did you feel a sense of relief? Yeah, I did.

I really did. and for a while I couldn't talk about it but now I actually find it hence being here very easy to talk about because yeah like don't get me wrong it is really upsetting and it is really sad but I just don't think that's how we're supposed to have a family like I really don't I want a family and I hope I get one but it's not going to be that way like the idea of being pregnant terrifies me like yeah do you think a part of that fed into the relief then yeah i do i don't have to yeah and it's also just my body went through it because i think it's something that only people who have struggled to have kids would understand when

people say to you it's life consuming i couldn't do anything that i normally did i couldn't eat what i'd normally eat. I couldn't drink what I'd normally drink. Every inch of my life was completely absorbed with this. And it's, in a way, doing it during lockdown was easier because I didn't have FOMO because no one was doing anything. But actually the pressure it put on the relationship was so much bigger because it really was just the two of us. So yeah. It's so much pressure on you do you take so much of the responsibility with that in mind and obviously your husband's not here so if you're not comfortable please don't answer it but I imagine the relief that you feel is obviously so tied to the physicality of what you've been through do you think that he

felt similarly without that I do I look back at that period of time and I actually almost find it funny that we thought we were fine because you look back and you're And I say that we, you know, we really struggled. And I would say we actually were a really good team during IVF. It was more after IVF that I think because my symptoms, if you like, were so different to his. Like I obviously had the initial physical stuff. He kind of really held himself together and was an amazing partner through that. So I'd kind of recovered.

And then I think he probably at that point went, oh my God. And then I was like, well, I don't understand why you're not okay. I'm fine. Like, it was just an imbalance for ages. But we did also have some real, you know, the Friends episode where Rachel's in Labor and Ross is like, oh, I've banged my head. You have no idea how much that hurts. Like, we had a few of those moments, like, for sure.

And I think there's such a weird emphasis on doing the process together where the reality is your experiences are so different. Like, I would say to anyone going through IVF. yes obviously do it with a supportive partner of course but it takes a village both of you need separate people to vent to because there are points for both of you where you just don't want to hear the other ones problems because it's too much or too insignificant I remember my husband had to go on supplements for a couple of weeks and they made him feel really sick and I'm sure he felt really sick I'm sure he did but this was when I was probably a year and a half into everything

and I just didn't want to hear, like, at all. I was like, oh, you've had to take some tablets, poor you. Sort of really, like, as I'm just coming around from general. You're like a pincushion. Yeah, no, totally. Like, I'm surprised I haven't deflated between like all of the hospital procedures and acupuncture. I'm like, how is there anything in me? But it's, yeah, like it was a relief.

And I think to, and I can't, and this is. is kind of why I messaged you, where I was like, the weird thing is, is as awful as it was, if I had a baby out of it, I'd be PRing IVF till the cows come home. I'd be like, oh my God, you have to do it. Like, it's great. Like, you know, it's amazing. Look what it gave me. It's great. My experience is, you know what, it is amazing. It taught me a huge amount about myself and it's great, but it can also be horrendous. And you can come out of that without your happily ever after that must be hard to make peace with i mean i guess it kind of it felt like it came to a natural end for you guys but it must be hard to be like that's it

that's our line in the sand and to say like that money is gone yeah that time is gone all that you know that effort and all of that that's just that's in the in the past now and i guess it It is a bit weird because I turned 40 last year and I never expected to see out my 30s without children. Like we bought the family home four years ago. Most of the time it's just me in it because my husband works away a lot. That's quite strange. Like you get the utility bills and you're like, why have I paying to heat this house? Like it doesn't make any sense.

But then I also, I see the glimmers in it all of kind of. I saw Chapel Roan get interviewed a few weeks ago and I think she went too far with it where she was kind of like oh you know I'm not having kids because all my friends who have kids don't want them like it's not that but I also recognise that I don't think you guys have had a lion for a while

and I have you say that I have and I love it like you know and I am trying to really relish the time like that because and enjoy the fact that I'm not a parent in a positive way and I'm not going to like like that that's quite easy at times like it is I think that's a really nice thing for people to hear as well because I think like the on the chapel thing every time I try and say a name I want to say Chappelle and I hate my chappelle on the chapel thing it's We talked about it a bit because it does feel really divisive because there are people online

who are very vocal about being child free by choice. And then there are people who are mothers. And obviously there's a huge chasm between those two things, people who might want children one day, people who can't have children, people who, whatever it is. And it's such a shame that on the two, we've got such two opposing sides that feels like a fight, which doesn't make any sense. But I also think it's just really sad that we've, we live in a world where we have to pick a team.

I know. Exactly. And it's sort of, because I don't, I've never worn one hat on any subject ever. And I found that really difficult, almost from a mental health perspective as well. Where, you know, especially in the world we live in now, where they're at such extremities, it's, it's really hard to kind of, I have views, but I don't have opinions. And I feel the same way about parenting. Like, I really want to be a parent. You know, so does my husband.

I want to have a family and I believe that that comes from having children in some way. But I also know that I'm pretty sure we could have a great life without them. So it's so that don't get me wrong, it's I have all the hopes and dreams of anyone else who wants to have kids. But I also recognize that if it doesn't happen for us, we'll be all right. Yeah.

That's so nice that you still feel like that with your, can I ask about like that that decision in the relationship to I guess like I don't know to prioritize each other and stuff has that been yeah I think it was we both actually said very early on in the process that the main thing is that we wanted to be with each other like that was and I do feel that way like I love my husband like he is my best friend he I mean he's a royal pain but I'm sure I am and we give I give as good as I get like that way and I married him I didn't marry him and the opportunity to have children like it's sort of my decision to walk down the aisle was because I he's my life partner and that's all it's just that's just the way it's always been

like as always been plus we both love dogs so I think we like there was one moment actually but we had a particularly tough meeting and we were driving. back and we went past a dog shelter and my husband was like, should I just reverse in and open the boot? And there was a part of me that was like, that wouldn't be so bad actually. That would be quite good. So yeah, I'm not, I don't mourn over what could have been. And I don't think I ever have. And it's weird because I normally am that type of person, but I just haven't with this. I have had a lot of therapy though. Yeah. Yeah, that's my next question. I turned down therapy during IVF, which is actually something I would change because I wish I'd done it.

But actually, I did think I was okay. And that's one thing I would say to anyone going through IVF now is it's not just about how you feel in the moment. It's about that story and how it continues and you having the right cushioning for your landing. if you like, with whatever scenario comes out. I started seeing a therapist a year afterwards because my husband was actually like, you need help. And I've had therapy before and stuff. And I was like, okay, all right, fine.

And at first I didn't think I did necessarily. I just thought I was kind of grieving. But I actually saw a psychiatrist who diagnosed me with PTSD. Really? Yeah. So, and that was a real wake-up call for me because I was like, oh, I'm actually not very well. Like, whereas I thought I was functioning pretty well. I don't know why I sound a surprise there because, of course, you ended up PTSD.

Like, it was so traumatic what you went through. Yeah. You did three around retrievals, more transfers. So many transfers. But also, you all know this from your process. You go through such extreme highs and lows. quick succession and you don't have time to breathe or grieve in that process like you do the egg retrieval those scans are horrible because you go into a scan and one day it's great and then three

days later they're awful because you go in and you're told oh it looks good oh it doesn't look so good oh we think you have this many actually you have this many and if I remember rightly you've got low MH2 right yes but I did actually everyone tells you you can't raise it I did raise mine like quite significantly that's for people listening sorry sorry I don't actually know what AMH stands for. It's the anti-malarian hormone, so that's given off by, like, how many, it's basically an indicator of how many eggs you had, like, your ovarian reserve. Because mine was hovering around one, and I got it up to about four.

Wow. Which everybody tells you you can't, but I did, so. Wow. But then you go and you have the egg retrieval. There's no, like, you don't have time to kind of go, yay, or have a shock. Because you have egg retrieval, then there's sort of, then there's the sperm, and the joining bit, and then it's one day, two, day, three days. And it's so weird because you will have so many embryos.

And all they focus on are how many successful. They don't talk about the fact that you've just lost essentially loads, because the numbers only go down. And it's really weird because each one of those losses is like another month of natural trying or whatever. So you have to go through, say you get 10, and then you end up with one embryo, you have to basically absorb 10 months of natural trying in one go and all the loss of, say, nine months of trying.

God, I never, I never looked at it like that. See, I see IVF as time travel, like I really do, because you just speed up what would happen naturally. Wow. Yeah. That's a really kind of beautiful perspective on it, I suppose. Yeah, I don't know. It's just how.

That's crazy. Yeah. But it kind of is because if you were left to your own devices, that's how long it would have taken you. Like, it's sort of, or one, not saying you specifically, but like, yeah. But you don't have any time to absorb it. So it was only really when my therapist sat down with me and basically number crunched with me, that when you see it, like literally on a piece of paper in front of you, I was like, oh my God, I have lost so much. and then gained and then lost and then gained and then lost and then sort of like and your body is in suspense the whole time like I felt like I probably was tense the whole

time because I had it a couple of times where we had to call off the transfer because I had a cyst and like all the things that are very normal and happen all the time so where either then it's like okay you have to wait another month I'm pretty sure I was probably like this for a month your body can't sustain that. Like, you just can't. Like, you've got to let it out. So, yeah, and I've still have my therapist now. We don't talk about anything fertility related. I actually just chat to her. I'm convinced she's my friend. She might feel differently. But, um, do you pay her? So she's not your brother? She's a therapist. I'm like, oh, she's just got a new dog and I love

talking to her about her dog. Like, um, I always think that's here. And then I'm like, no, she's, she's not my friend. Get the invoice. You're like, this is weird. Yeah. What? That's just a catch up. Okay. I know that is how I feel. She's actually going on holiday next week and I was like, oh, really?

Am I not coming? Like, where are we going? Grease sounds lovely. Like, yeah. Take the therapy is what I would say. Like, take it. Like, roll around in it, bathe in it. Because you may not feel that it's important in that moment, but I am telling you it is.

And it is probably my only regret. in the whole thing is that I didn't take the therapy because I think I would have got to how I feel now a lot sooner, a lot sooner, so yeah. Can I ask about grief? Yeah. Did you, you said you didn't have a second in between cycles to sort of like breathe or grief.

Knowing that you'd put a time on it and being quite a type A person, which I am not, by the way, so I can only, I only know Al. it's interesting to watch someone else's brain operate in a way that I don't that I can't relate to I guess but did you know did you have that anticipation if you know you're only going to do one round was it like you were aware of that grief being suspended and waiting for you do you know what I mean it if you if you couldn't feel it in the minute could was it like a sort of

sense of foreboding that you would have to sit and feel your feelings at some point and you were delaying them or no i don't know actually um honestly you're just so go go go autopilot you don't really like it's sitting in a box over there and you just don't go with it like it's yeah no i didn't and that doesn't feel like did it feel like something that you were able to control or like to have a grasp on your feeling and have like a, because it is so regimented, I guess, in a way that it kind of maybe does lend itself to certain personalities where you can be like, okay, this is how I'm going to deal with this bit and this bit.

Well, I think also there was so much learning from each loss and each retrieval on each IVF round that whenever we lost, it was more of a concentration of what can we learn from this and the next one. and it you know and also i had the very stereotypical thing of kind of accidentally assuming i as the woman was the problem and it wasn't really on until the second round that both of us were properly looked at and to be honest there were no real problems but there were things for both of us that we both needed to improve and it was and then that again was like another learning It's just, but I also find it incredible that in the UK loads of areas from an NHS perspective,

I only do one round because my experience of my first round was, and this was private, but like when my experience of first round was that it was like a test. Like my first round was basically like, oh, how does your body respond to IVF? Like it wasn't because, like I said, because all the data is just so skewed, because the reality is there is no average statistic that can. really be truly it's not it's not like it's law it's guess everything in female health is guesswork sadly at this point that it was almost like oh yeah we're doing IVF like I remember actually having to write to send an email to someone to say I wasn't going to be able to make a meeting

because I was having a retrieval or something and the lady emailed me back saying oh my god congratulations and I was like what? Like, I hadn't even occurred to me that doing IVF was like celebratory. I was like, well, not really, actually, hon. That's really sweet, but no. But my experience, my first round of IVF was very much me and my husband and my medical team, realizing what drugs worked, like how I responded to it. So almost so I could think do the next one, if that makes sense.

And it was kind of the same going from two to three. as well like it was every step it was more learning so you just didn't think about the grief it was almost like you know this is quite timely for you out but like the the box you never unpack and like when you move house it's it's like that it's sitting there and it's on your conscience and you very much know it's there but at the same time you can kind of live without dealing with it like it you know once you open it you can't close it again exactly and then you're like where do I bought all this stuff kind of thing it is that like my therapist sort of like drug it dragged it out the loft kind of thing and I was just like cool this is a lot but I

probably cried I don't even remember crying that much during the process either and I am a cryer so again that's quite weird I imagine you were on autopilot I think I was yeah I think I was and all I could kind of think about when we went through our last loss all I could think about was that I had a holiday with a friend in a month and I was like oh I just need to get there like just need to get there I feel like when you're going through the process there isn't that much space like neither time

there's time nor mental capacity to actually feel anything because you are literally not feeling I don't know how to describe it but you're in an appointment then another appointment another appointment and like you say you're also trying to have a life around it like I was like you know

I run a business I was keeping that afloat like I was you know we moved house during it like it was sort of we got married during it like mad actually when I think about it like actually plot out my therapist sort of did a month by month of 20 I don't know how long I've been married 2021 and month by month what we went through you're like how are we still here like it's just like no one how are we together because we actually had and I honestly now I laugh but at the time I was like oh my god I want to kill you is there was one family member who meant it from a really encouraging like oh my god it's great that you're doing so well but basically every time we saw them would say oh 50% of couples who go through IVF split up

what are fucking stupid I know so 50% of couples split up anyway I know I think what they were trying to say is you're you're you're together so you're doing really really well but I was literally sitting there like I should not have been near sharp objects at this point I'm holding a knife trying to have dinner being like oh my god can I ask I think I'm asking this because I'm thinking I'm putting myself in your position and I am like especially with not like boundaries and I mean like self-imposed boundaries I'm not very good with them like I think if it was me I'd be like that's it I'm done like I've yeah I'm in that moment I've hit I'm I've hit capacity.

None of us can take, we can't take this anymore. And then I think a year done a lot and I'd be like, oh, I feel a bit better. Like the PTSD is kind of, it's, you know, I'm getting help. Like, it's easing up a bit. We have attempted to like, oh, I'll just give it another go. Not really. No. Like, I've had a lot of friends go through it and one friend in particular who had a really

difficult journey, finally had her baby, which is wonderful. And I remember when I first saw her, I was in the car on the way back and I was like, we could have kept going. Like we could have done. No, it's just not worth it. Just not worth it. Like I value my life, my mental health and my marriage too much to do it. And I prioritise those things ahead of it. And it's, and I think that's okay. That's amazing. It's so important. People hear you say that.

It's so important. And it's, I think this is the thing as well is that maybe this has made it slightly easy for me. I wasn't someone who played with dollies. I wasn't someone who, which is actually mad when you think about it, how much you get young children to play with dollies, to play being a mum, like before they can even talk. So like, I was thinking about this the other day. I was like, that's crazy. But it's, I was never.

someone who I always kind of assumed I'd have children but I wasn't someone who necessarily fantasized about that which maybe has made this a little bit easier I don't feel that becoming a parent will complete me I think it will add to my great life okay we just completed IVF like if that makes any sense that we just did it like you know it and actually when we sat down with our doctor after our last loss and we said okay I think we're done he was He was like, I get it. He's like, I totally get it. He's like, I don't doubt that I could give you a baby, but I totally get why I'm not able to show you anything that tells you how you're going to get there. That's enough. And it did kind of get to a point that we were going

to have to start really compromising our lives. Like we got, you know, financially was quite a big thing. It became, you know, oh, do we want to have a nice time? Or do we, do we want to go pummel all our money into IVF. We both worked for ourselves. Neither of us were in positions where we were getting any kind of like sick leave, anything like that. Like I said, my husband works away quite a lot. He wasn't one of the main reasons we picked to do it during COVID was because he was at home. So it was an opportunity for us both to be in the same place at the same time. The world was opening up again with COVID. I was beginning to see what FOMO would look like during IVF and whatever.

And I just thought, no, I pick having some fun, to be honest. Can I ask about that friend who was successful? How has that been for you throughout this, seeing the people around you have children? I'm not jealous of pregnancy. I envy people who have the families they want because that's what I want. One of my closest friends had three children during the time that I went through this. But, and I think this is actually something you and I have spoken about before. I don't think yes, okay, there's the ill time pregnancy announcements and that kind of thing. I've never been

someone who's needed to stay away from pregnant people, all of this kind of stuff, because I just think you just need to feel like the person respects your situation and that that is demonstrated towards you and then you can be friends as normal like it's kind of fine like to be honest as my friends have more and more kids I'm like oh my god my kids are going to have so many friends or as time goes on I'm like oh my god my kids are going to have so many babysitters like it's kind of like and I think that's really cool like I really do and I don't you know my friendships have definitely been tested around that point around all of this but not from an envy perspective or from anything of that. It's been more, I think we as women, fertility is often

the first really hard thing that we face that makes you really vulnerable. And it's the first time I think a friendship is ever tested in that way. But I also don't really have time for the idea that it's an exclusive situation. I wouldn't sit here and tell you. you how much I love my job and all of this kind of stuff if you were unemployed. I wouldn't sit and tell you and sort of complain about my mortgage if you guys were people who were really upset about not being able to get on the property ladder. I don't think it's any different. I really don't. I just think it's something that just needs to be considered and navigated and respected. And I'd actually, I think it'd be good to get onto some like practical stuff for

people listening. Can I ask quickly, like, just as a follow-up to that question that Em asked about, you know, your friend finally, because you make a lot of friends when, and I think you did, right? When you were going through IVF, you made friends who were also going through IVF. It's kind of weird because when someone gets pregnant, it's almost like you've made friends with someone over your summer holidays and then you go back to school and they're in the year above. Like, you're not, you're not with me anymore. And that does happen. It is a thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That must be really hard because you're like, you've got this common, this like shared thing that's, that like not really anyone else understands.

Well, also I think, and I think it's okay to say this, if you are someone that has suffered fertility and then had a child, you don't understand the situation of someone who doesn't have a child yet. And I don't mean that with any slight, but that person is still sitting in a pool of what if, and your what if moment has happened. And I do sometimes have to sort of grit my teeth when someone has said to me, I understand how you feel. I'm like, you don't because you're going home for bath time. Like you don't have that. I get that you were in that situation before and you can reflect on that time. But saying you understand is important. possible. Like it's just not, you know, it's apples and oranges. Like it's not the same thing. Did you have to distance yourself from friends you made during that time who were then successful with IVF? No, because only actually one person who actually, I think if you go through infertility for as long as I have, like you do have to have quite a dark twisted sense of humour. But there was one person who I was very much her person that she came to when she was hurt by someone's pregnancy announcements or not being considered and all this

kind of thing. And then the way she told me she was pregnant was so wild that actually it wasn't that she told me she was pregnant. It was that I was like, oh my God, have you just had a lobotomy? Really? And I sort of went. Are you allowed to say how she told you? She, I remember She sent me screenshots of someone telling her, I think, a head of a hendoo or something. I can't remember the exact situation. And she hated that this person had just dropped into her inbox and like a Wednesday morning. Right. And she literally did the same thing to me.

Really? And I just sort of went, do you know what? I'm good actually. And it wasn't that she was pregnant. I was happy for her. I really was. It was more the consideration. especially something that she had experienced longer than I had at that point and it was I can only

imagine that happiness had taken over like do you know what kind of thing I don't know but then a really good thing to do in it is we're talking about practical points is I think if you know someone who is if there's two of you going through it or a group of you going through it ask each other when I and if I do get pregnant how do you want me to tell you and stick to that and I had one friend who asked me that didn't stick to it told everyone but me so I knew months before and then when she did sit down and tell me she said to me dead in the eye but I'm not as far along as you so I do need quite a lot of support because you know it might not work out and I was like right you're not my friend anymore.

No. Like done. And I, but again, that isn't an exclusive to a pregnancy situation. That's just people. So for someone listening who has a friend who is going through infertility, say, is not able to have a child and they fall pregnant themselves, how do you, how do you advise that they tell their friend? What's the best way to go about it, the most sensitive way?

it's very difficult because it's interesting actually i know from having this conversation people like it to receive information in different ways like for me i didn't want to just get a random text i know one of my friends who went through this actually quite like that because she'd be like right i've just got a text i can reply when i want to i don't have to do it you know it's not in person which is why i think it's a good idea to almost preemptively be like if like this ever happened? Yeah. Like, how do you want to know?

And, like, can we just log this? Because that's how I'll do it kind of thing. I had this for Georgie. My best friend can't have children. And we had this with my first. And then I learned from that how to tell her the second time. Yeah. And I just learned that you, we had this conversation.

And for her, she said, it's just different for everyone, as you say. Yeah. But for her, she said, I just, I want to know. I want you to tell me as you'd tell anyone else and then I need you to know that I'm just going to be really sad for myself for a bit Yeah and that was so it was like You tell me exactly as you would

And let me have that fun bit with you And then let me go and sit in my car She will be really happy for you And it's impossible like almost to the same thing Of what we were talking about earlier Where it's like picking a team You don't have to pick a team You can be really ecstatic for your best friend

But really sad for you And that's okay And I think you've also got to allow the person you're telling that as well and just show compassion I think with any situation just you know I would agree as well to your friend's point I wouldn't want to be told like I know this is going to be really hard for you that's horrible because you don't want to feel like singled out you want to hear the happy news and then you probably do want to go and scream in your car for a minute and that's okay but you know I love kids I wouldn't be going through all of this if I didn't

love kids. The idea of some of the best people in the world I know making small versions of themselves is amazing. Like, that's brilliant. And my friend's kids are hilarious. Like, I love them. Like, we shouldn't have favorites. I do. But it's, I think it's the best thing ever. Does that mean I've been pitifully sad for me? Yeah. Like, yeah. But it's just how it goes. They coexist. Yeah. Yeah. Can I ask about sharing it online and what you've been through?

Well. I think as I found with my entire online journey, I've found boundaries as I've gone forward. I am a sharer and I found it very weird not to share. But unfortunately, I have found the boundaries as I've been burnt by situations. I had a one instant where there was a trolling website that was saying that I didn't have a right to be sad about being infertile because I haven't been trying for long enough. And actually I then saw that and called it out and said, and I was like, I was actually having a miscarriage at that point when I read that. And then on the trolling site, they said, I can't believe she was having a miscarriage reading stuff about herself.

she's incredibly self-absorbed so that was interesting um i also did once have my picture taken in an ivf clinic you when you told this made me so upset that like angry for you you know i i mean yeah that was interesting and they put it on the yeah website yeah yeah that is horrendous oh i'm so sorry um but to be honest that was the last of my problems at that point like I had so much else going on. It's such an invasion of privacy and it's so personal. Yeah. And like I just.

Yeah. That's really great. Calmer for that person, whoever it was. But in terms of sharing online, I shared at the very end. And it's really difficult because I don't want to be a poster child for it, like at all. I did actually do a post on my substack, which was things I wish I knew about IV. and we'll put a link to that on the show notes oh do like and anyone who pays for myself stack out of it I donate to Thomas so um and they are the uh child loss yeah how do you say

um pregnancy loss pregnancy loss yeah it's a slippery slope because I never want to be that person who anyone thinks they can slide in my DMs for help because but I also understand that helplessness and it's very difficult so whenever I do get those messages I have to really selfishly go, can I deal with this? And to be honest, most women who do approach me are aware of that because they say, look, like, I know this is impossible, but, you know, did you have this test or did you do this or whatever and blah, blah, blah. Sometimes I can deal with it. Sometimes I can't. Like, it's just kind of the way it goes.

Fair enough. Like, but I, I would, if I was going to be a reference point for anything, it would be that you can come out of this, not holding a baby and be fine. Yeah. Because that's how I feel. So, yeah. You're amazing. Oh, thanks.

Thank you so much. And thank you for so generously sharing with us. And I have no doubt that that conversation is going to help so many people. I hope so because I don't have the answer and I know that that's all that women. in want at that point in their lives, but I can tell you you can find contentment over not having that answer. And you can also have lions. So what can possibly be better? Who's really? Yeah, no, I am one of my best friends. It was quite funny. I got up early the other day and was taking the dog out and I bumped into her in the park at like quarter to eight and

her son was already in a Spider-Man outfit like half Spider-Man outfit half-2-2 and I was like morning I'm going home to sit down cup of tea can't wait for that but yay life's good like genuinely everything's all right so yeah really beautiful thanks thank you so much Anna should I delete that as part of the Acast creator network Thanks.