Should I Delete That? - Why is the World so Tough on Mothers?

Episode Date: August 18, 2024

This week, Em and Alex are joined by founder of Motherkind, Zoe Blaskey! After a rollercoaster of an email from a listener last week, the girls were feeling a bit deflated. It was beginning to feel like there wasn't enough space to be open about the realities of motherhood, and that it wasn't clear to listeners how happy they were despite finding things hard. This is where Zoe came in to clear things up. Zoe is on a mission to help mothers shift from guilt, exhaustion and comparison to confidence and empowerment. She explains why a mother's instinct isn't innate, what matrescence is and why you shouldn't tell mothers that they will get back to their "old self". This enlightening conversation is for mothers, future mothers, those questioning whether they want to be mothers and those who have decided against parenthood all together!Follow Zoe @zoeblaskey on InstagramBuy Zoe's new book Motherkind here: https://beacons.ai/zoeblaskeyVote for us in the British Podcast Awards Listener's Choice category here: https://www.britishpodcastawards.com/votingFollow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

If a young adult came to us for some advice, we would never say, like, don't worry, you'll get your teenage self back. We wouldn't say that. But that's what we say to mums. We're like, don't worry, you'll get yourself back. And I think that's why so many moms struggle. Hello, and welcome back to Should I Delete That. I'm Alex Light. And I'm in Clarkson. How are you, Alex? I am good. I am good. I say I'm good. And then the three things that I've got to talk to you about are none of them are good.

But I am good. I just don't have anything specifically good. How are you? Better. Get into it. Get into it. Let's get through the list. Okay.

My first thing, and my first thing, this isn't me moaning about the heat, okay? But the heat does play a part in this story. But I'm not specifically moaning about the heat. Indirectly, I kind of am. Okay. Last year, we bought an aircon. machine for a bedroom because I can't survive I can't function in this heat as you know and sleeping is just horrendous um so bought an aircon machine last year and on it was heaven

like I just felt like I'd I just felt like I'd landed like it was just the best thing ever and then like a few days a few nights in the tube fell out of the window and it shut Betty up and since then like she just they're clever she just remember she knows now and she has this like fear like total total fear of the aircon machine of that big tube and it's her arch nemesis and so when it was like it was like 30 something degrees and bloody nearly 30 degrees in the bedroom and I was like for the sake of everyone you know Tommy and but mostly me for the sake of everyone we need the aircon machine on but when it gets when it goes on she just shakes like a leaf she shakes like a sad little leaf and the whole bed

vibrates and she just sits up, sits up looking at it. She won't calm down. She won't go into the cover. She won't cuddle. She just sits shaking and looking at it. She won't go downstairs either. No, no, no. She's still got to be in the bed.

Just staring at it. Like a hot, hot vibrator. Like a hot little vibrator, I know. And it's sad, but ultimately I chose myself and I kept the icon on. Well, you kept it on. You kept it on and just chose vibration. Mm-hmm. Fine.

Fine. You've made the right choice. it's like I just it's Sophie's choice I can't I don't know what I'm looking I've been thinking seriously about getting you hypnotised to enjoy the sunny months I just I don't think it's good for once mental health

to despise the sun so much it's here for too long I said on Instagram in the day like I want to punch the sun like that and people like that's very aggressive and it is aggressive but that's how I feel I want to punch the sun I want to punch the hot air around me and like punch it away from me like punch. I want to be coddled by it.

I love it. I love it. I'm sad for you that you don't love it like I love it. See, but I will thrive in winter. That's when I really get my mojo. See, I'm, no, I don't notice it, but I become, I only realize how depressed I've been when the sun comes back out the following spring. Really? I think I'm all right. I'm like, oh, I can get through this.

I don't mind Christmas. Woohoo. And then the sun comes out in April. I'm like, oh. Do you think you have, I was depressed? SAD or like... I 100% have SAD. I need the sun.

I love the sun. I love the sun. People keep saying it's me at the moment. Like, oh, I don't know how you coping with the sun while you're pregnant and you must be said? No, I am delighted. I am loving it. Even with like HD and stuff, everyone's like, oh, the sun must make it so much worse. It doesn't.

It just boosts morale. I feel so happy in the sun. I just balsking the glow. Oh, I just love it. I just love it. No, we're so different. We're so different. Gross.

Have you got anything for me? I do. I have a bad for you and it's a cultural badge and it's something that we're going to need to talk about at length on Thursday and that is the cancelization of Blake Lively. Oh my God. The internet's reaction to this, to Blake Lively. I cannot, I cannot cope with it.

Oh my God, there is so much to talk about. I spent about an hour on TikTok last night because a video came up first and it was an old clip people digging out old clips of Blake Lively where they like don't paint her in the best light or like America Ferreira like rolling her eyes at her in a joint interview and stuff like this

people are like going for blood they really are they are like absolutely gunning for her and it's like sorry what is she done? Well that was it right like I was looking at this and I was thinking what's happened here like I don't understand like she's being accused of like pink washing a domestic violence film about profiting on on the story of abuse she's been like and all this stuff

and I was like this feels like a stretch this feels like a stretch this feels this feels kind of wild so I did the research and it is a stretch and it is kind of wild and I know we talk about them all the time but the shameless podcast that both at both Alex and I love have done an episode about this and I was so grateful for it because I genuinely felt like I was going mad like the internet is like canceling her and like you say pulling out a million old clips and going at every single thing that she's done and they're like finally finally she's getting her come up it's finally they can see who she really is and it's i was looking at i thinking this is absolutely disgusting i need i need to know that i'm not on my own with this and then they've done this podcast and

they've explained the whole situation so homework for everybody is to go and listen to that episode and we're going to talk about it on thursday but i genuinely the media at the moment i mean the media's always done this but it's literally what we've talked about a million times this over exposure of a woman like because she was in the deadpool film she so now she's in this film it's like up up up up and we've had too much let's pull her down yeah yeah yeah and it's fascinating and terrifying so much joy in it yeah it's sick i can't wait to talk about this okay okay okay homework for everyone listen and then we'll come back on thursday anything good for me no that's part part part part bads my second another piece of current affair news that molly may and

Tommy Fury have broken up. Oh my God, oh my God, because I'm not, I'm not, this is big for you. You have such affinity, like, such affinity with her. My best friend going through this time. My best friend who doesn't know what I exist. Yeah, I'm genuinely, I am gutted for it. Like, and I, I, I was driving yesterday and it was like breaking news. Alex was like, we were driving and he was like, oh my God, what he made him, Tommy

through, broken up. I was like, tell me everything. I'm driving. Read me everything, you know. I'm an absolute shock and I'm so upset for her. And the worst thing is, is she says at the end of her statement, please respect my privacy out this time.

And the Daily Mail's head story is the news. And then the very first line is, do you know why Tommy Fury and Molly May broke up? Email tips at dailymail.com.com. And it's like... You're joking. No, very first line. Do you know what? I was thinking about this

because like on my... I follow loads of magazines. and publications and on my feed it's just like tons of pictures of them like lovy-dovey kissing pictures and then like Tommy May you know they've they've broken up and I'm like it's difficult because it's like how do publication like that's the way a publication covers it like it makes no sense but for her it must be horrendous just like all these pictures of you and the guy that you have just like the father of your child that you have just split up with and these pictures are everywhere like that's so painful it's so painful i really feel that and you know like reading between

the lines of that statement it is not like she's not it's fresh like it's raw it's yeah it doesn't it sounds like he's he's done something yeah bad and it's like this just must be so horrific and then the the jokes that people make already and like a lot of the jokes are quite sort of sweet because people do love tommy they're too do love molly may so much and i have seen a lot of guys being like oh yay like it's transfer season you know she's she's available like and there's a lot obviously like, you know, people like me being like, we're going to ride at dawn, you know, G.K. Barry has done this big thing about, you know, like, you'll fight for Molly forever. So, like, I hope she's seeing that. But what I was, like, instantly disheartened by is the comments being like, oh, yeah,

really sick of her new body. Like, like, obviously he didn't like this. And like, she's, you know, let herself go since mother or whatever. And it's like, oh, that's just got a fucking sting. Yeah. That's gross. People just, people just, people are just wild, aren't they? People just, yeah, people just horrible. Oh. But I know I feel really sad for her. God, of course that's your bad. Of course that's your bad. Of course.

My two favorite people, genuinely are Blake lively and Molly May. It's been a bad week for my fan girl wing. I'm like, wait, what? I've got girls, are we okay? My anchors. You're right. Literally my two favorite, my two favorite, like, celebs. I'm absolutely got it.

Oh, sad times. I know. It'll be Piers Brosden's turn next. isn't he your like other... Don't even stop. I will defend that man. I'm going to get till the end of time. As long as you don't get him killed, he'll be fine because men can handle cancellation, you know, like they just, they skim along the water. That's true. That's true. Okay, I have another bad, another awkward, I don't know, a bit of both. Um, very quick one, don't worry. Um, I was driving on a road that was a 50 my per hour road.

it's that how you say it? 50 mile per hour? I don't know how you say it. A 50 limit road. 50 miles an hour. Yeah. Yeah, 50. Okay, fine. And, um, however, it like, it wasn't a dual carriageway. It was like a single, you know, a single lane thing. And I didn't feel like 50 felt right. In fact, I just didn't feel right at all. And my max felt like 38. But there were a build of cars like behind me. And I could sense the frustration. So I, It was going somewhere. I was actually like, I didn't have time. I was late.

But I was like, I, sorry, like, I need to stick to 38. So I pulled off, I pulled off the road that I was supposed to be going down. And I did this huge detour to, like, join the, so I could let everyone go. And then I joined the road back again. And I was like, this is sad, but also, like, good on me for knowing my limits. It's very conscientious. I like to hear that you've got. because I will have been the very first person up your ass going speed the fuck up.

I thought that. I thought like Emma would be furious if she was behind me. I would be right behind you being like, what is this? Joker. And I did try and go faster, but I was like, I just, I just can't. It's too much. I just, I don't feel comfortable. It's too much.

I understand. I try. Yeah, I try. I try so hard. There's a learner. I got stuck behind you than it. And I felt so. bad for her because she stole we were on like coming down because I'm driving to the studio at the

moment because I'm too sick to get the train and if I'm sick on my lap in the car then that's my problem and no one else is and so I was driving home and it was like you know like past Waterloo Station and she and I just I all I thought was what kind of driving instructor bring someone to Waterloo Station like that roundabout and she stalled like three times I was like of course you have this is the worst environment in the world that's her brandis that's horrendous. I felt so sorry for her and I was like I was like no I'm for I weak I can sit here all day and I was trying to communicate that with my eyes in case she was looking at the me in the rearview mirror panicking and I was trying to look at I mean I've got nowhere to be I did I had I was like my childcare runs out in 15 minutes I've got to go but I didn't say that my eyes didn't say that my eyes said all the time in the world princess I felt so bad for her my own awkward I'm sure worse things have happened but I had to go to have my I had a scan, I had a pregnancy scan

recently. Everything's really good which I'm so relieved because I've been so sick and like to see she's growing normally and like everything is such a relief and anyway I had the scan, she was in the worst position the whole time. She was like totally upside down no one could see her face, no one could see any of her neither to check, you know, they need to check

all her bits and her bobs and she was just having absolutely none of it. So the lady doing the ultrasound said a few times she was like okay and can you just if you could just you know like do some jumping jacks I was like, oky-dokey. So off the bed, do some jumping jacks. And then she was like, no, that hasn't worked.

Can you try some water? I was like, honestly, no. Because if I drink water, I'll just throw up. And she's like, okay, fair enough. Let's try eating something. So I had like a couple of jelly beans. Didn't work. And she's like, okay, maybe some more jumping jacks.

I was like, okay. So more jumping jacks. And then I lay back down. And then she was like, really prodding my stomach. And then I was like, I have to be sick. So then she had to get me a little sick bowl. Oh, no. There's no dignity here.

And she's like, okay, we're going to have to go in. We're going to have to, do you mind if I go in and try and do it from down there? I was like, brilliant. It was like my little sick bucket. And she got the big wand that she waxed the condom on and then covers it with Lou. And I just looked at that and I thought, if men have babies, there's not a chance in hell. They would look at that device and go, yeah, sure, you can put that up my bum. Go for it.

I know. I know. I know. I'm fine. I'm free to do that. That was exactly the same as my 20 week, or my 12 week scan. and I was doing jumping jacks but I already had the transvaginal and ultrasound and she's like still nothing can you do some jumping jacks so I was doing the jumping jacks without my pants on and I was like this is so bad this is bad that's exactly the same it was so Alex has a video of me I was like this is so tragic um so that was nice that was good and that was it a final bad then before we go yes it's this episode I'm so anxious about it I am so anxious about this episode fuck I'm so anxious But can we stress not because of Zoe Zoe's absolutely brilliant and this was a really brilliant interview like she's great, absolutely great

but yeah I'm super anxious about it I don't know I feel like I sounded super negative in this and like in some way that I like No no no I have to stress out there was one point when you said something and you said I feel really negative for saying this and I looked at you and I thought

no this is really important and we don't allow ourselves to talk about this and I thought anybody that is going to judge us or judge you, because you said at that point, you're like, oh, I feel that really negative. And I distinctly remember looking at you and thinking, no, you have every right to say this. And I don't think anybody who is worth knowing and loving is going to judge us for anything we've said, because we were just trying to be honest and, and have a conversation we've been really scared to have. And I'm really happy that we've had it in a way. I'm also

terrified, obviously. Yeah, yeah. Okay. It also comes off the back of last week's, is it just me? Where we got that email. Brutal. Which was soul crushing. Um, so, but do you know what? Fuck it. This is, this is an important episode for us, for all mothers and potential mothers. And also people who, I really think for people who don't plan on becoming mothers either or who can't be mothers for some reason. I think it's like, it's important for everyone. I do too. I think like we've talked about it. We've talked around it a lot about how the polarization between people with children and child free and this kind of like us versus them stuff, this kind of archetypal view that we have. of mothers, this really negative, like, energy that surrounds the whole conversation. It's something that we feel. It's something that we see. And we really wanted a conversation with Zoe because, I mean, because it is, it's part of how we are living at the moment. And it's a huge part of our story. And it was kind of really made evident to us with the email that we got last week. So obviously, this isn't a motherhood podcast. This isn't what we do. We can, week out.

We, we are, we are, you know, you know, you know, if you've been here for a while, you know who we are at this point. But we do feel like this was a conversation that was really worth having and it was perfect. And Zoe's got her book coming out this week so it felt like all the stars aligned and I'm really happy that we did it. Yes. Can I just stress something pretty quickly? Big disclaimer because I feel like it didn't come across in the episode. But I love Tommy with all my heart and soul and I do not regret having him for one second. Of course you do. Of course you do. Okay good. Okay good. It's two things can be true. No, Al. You're a brilliant mom and you adore your baby. I love him so much. She's the best in the world.

it's mad I've net like okay good no one who hated someone would worry that much about whether or not they were still breathing exactly

we know that Al we got you I giggled about that in the middle of the night the other night you know I giggled about that

that woman me saying is he breathing that woman's face and she's absolutely brilliant okay guys we give you the excellent Zoe Blaskey

and we really hope you enjoy this episode. Thank you so much. Hi, Zoe. Hello. Thank you so much for coming in today. Talk to us all about parenthood. Yeah. About being a mother and to talk about your new book, Motherkind, which is coming out really soon, right? Yeah, Thursday. I don't know when we're releasing it. It's out on the 15th of August. Wow. I think it'll be out when we release this episode. Okay. That's exciting. Be in the world. I think we need to, before we start this interview, I think we need to, like, be honest about the reservations that Alex and I always

have about talking about motherhood. And I think it's really relevant to you being here and this conversation. Because since we've had our babies, all those, my daughter's 18 months, Tommy's seven months now, we've been really nervous to talk too much about having kids because we're very scared of, it's a really sexist and unfortunate situation that a woman, once she becomes a mother, is seen in such a single singular dimension. But it's when your work is your brand and your life is your brand and what we do is our brand,

when we have children, we know that our brands change because we're mothers now. And I think it's something that we've been so nervous about since our kids are born not to talk too much. We've had quite a lot of feedback from people who've listened to the podcast saying they want us to talk about our children less.

And it's something that we talk about together a lot. It's something we talk about and hear a lot about this the reservations we have about sharing this part of our lives but i think all of that is really relevant to what you talk about and to the kind of societal view that we have of mothers and what we're expecting of them we're expecting them to work like they don't have children and to to mother like they don't have jobs and it feels really impossible so off the back listeners please know we're nervous about this and we know that some of you don't want to hear it but i think it's actually important for those of you who don't want to hear it to hear it because it's

not it's not a part of the conversation i think we can avoid yeah i think you're right because you know and i totally get it and there's lots of data actually that that's in the book that backs up exactly what you're saying that mothers feel reduced to that one label but i think i just think that the more that we talk about these things the more it brings compassion and understanding whether you are a mother want to be one aren't one one never want to be you know whatever wherever you sit on that i think the more that we can bring honesty to the conversations then it does help with understanding and I think with understanding comes that compassion. So I think even though sometimes it is hard to talk about and sometimes

I wonder, oh my gosh, I've chosen. I had no idea motherhood was controversial when I started motherkind. Really? I was like, I just want to talk about my experience of motherhood and then I started getting all these like, you know, sort of questions and comments and but what about this? I was like, oh my God, okay, this is actually like in this day and age, controversial thing to talk about which I had I had no idea about but I think it's super important to talk about it because we know from you know all the data and the studies that I endlessly read how misunderstood motherhood is what the actual experience of it is like and I think the more we talk about it informs our conversations with our friends it informs you know workplace policy it can

inform so much yeah and I think that's how we change things isn't it by what you girls do so amazingly is have those brave conversations so thanks Thank you for leaning into it. Isn't it wild with like this really controversial guest on today to talk about motherhood? I don't feel very controversial, but I guess, yeah, in some ways it is. Why do you think it is a controversial subject? I think because it's so personal.

No one person's experience of motherhood will be the same. I think how we were mothered and how we view our own mothers apt to. colours how we view motherhood and I think it's the one thing that intersects you know across so many intersections and I think it really depends on where you sit in society and what your experiences are what your races what your sexuality is that has a huge impact on how you experience this one thing and I think because typically motherhood's been talking spoken about like a monolith like everyone has the same experience and there hasn't been enough nuance in the conversation i think that's why it can be people get so activated around it and in some way rightly

so because some people are like but what about this but what about my experience and i think that's why i think it's so important to have these conversations because we can bring more more understanding why do you think what do you guys think yes like you say it's deeply personal i'm wondering i'm thinking like there feels like there's a growing divide between people with children and child free people and I think that's being stoked by social media and I'm seeing a lot of that sort of us versus them content and I think that might play into it yeah as well as that we have the fact that it's pretty unsustainable now to have a family in the traditional sense that we expect of the father at work and the mother staying at home to raise the children in part because

many women want to pursue their careers and don't want to give it up to raise their kids but also because economically we just can't afford to do that and realistically women are waking up to the really frustrating realization that if we want to have children we are going to have to do so much more in the way of emotional and physical labour to make that happen we're going to have to work harder have a bigger mental load whatever it is and I think there's that sort of I don't know whether it's fear or anger or resentment And I, but I suspect that plays into it when people are having the conversation of whether they want children or when we view other mothers.

I think we're very aware that, like, it's a very big responsibility. It's a very big load. It's a very big choice. And I don't know if maybe we're not very good at watching other people. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know why we projected onto other women, but we definitely do. I think all the feelings of fear that we have, we project onto other women.

I think so too. Yeah, the terror that we're not doing it, right. That's right. And I think, you know, I think about this load. It's like, why is judgment so high in motherhood? And I see it, you know, I post about motherhood every day on my, on my Instagram. And so I really see, like, the beautiful, supportive side. And I see the really ugly side.

Like, I see women tearing each other apart for their choices. And I think what I've come to realize is that when we feel secure about our choices and what we're doing, and we don't tend to judge as much. No. What I've noticed is that I think because we're so, if I then talk to my experience, I'm so desperate to be like a good mom and to have my kids look back and say,

my mom was great and to have a really positive relationship with them when they're older. Like I want that so much. It also brings some insecurity. Like, am I doing it right? Particularly, and you know, we have more parenting information at our fingertips than at any other point in history.

And that is really intense. That's new. for our generation, I think that's one reason that we feel so insecure. And so then it's very easy if you chose to do one thing to then project that insecurity about whether you did it right onto judging another. Because when I feel secure about something like, I just made that choice and it was the right choice, I would never judge someone else. I'm able to be like, you do what's right for you.

It's brilliant. So I think because there's so much insecurity and questioning ourselves and lack of confidence, which I think absolutely society and social media, play into not just in motherhood in womanhood yeah i think that's why there's so much judgment i think you're right the insecurity yeah i think that's huge isn't it yeah which actually comes from a good place really which is i want to do the best i'm not sure what the best is so i'm going to do this and then actually there's there's not always that confidence in that choice so then we can it can be easy to trip into you know judgment i think we do judge i mean we judge and i'd love to

I'm sure you did a lot of research around this about like sort of the way that modern dads are now so much more present. I think there was this crazy statistics about millennial dads versus sort of their boomer dads. Yeah. And how boomer dads would always be really proud that they'd never changed snappy

whereas millennial dads are just, you know, cracking on. But the difference in how the expectation still sits on women versus men. Yep. And the judgment that we therefore are, to do you have any like I guess statistics or is that something that you are seeing getting worse do you think with social media or better with this sort of level of expectation that we're putting on women even though the dads are stepping up the pressure that we're putting on moms I think

what is so interesting about this is that so much of what we think motherhood is and fatherhood is or good motherhood and good father is sits outside of our awareness it sits in our subconscious and we know that about 90% of our kind of thoughts and behaviours are driven by that subconscious part of our brain and I think a lot of that gets formed when we're young so what I did when I first became my mother is I wrote on a top of a piece of paper like a good mother dot dot dot and what was coming out was like a 1950s housewife I was like this is wild she makes jam she makes jam and she's never angry and she does every school pick up and she wears a pinny and she cooks and she bakes and she I was like who what is but that's what was sitting outside of my awareness and I think we often have that subconsciously good dad dot dot dot you know earns the money walks in has dinner on the tape you know I think because generationally we're not that far away from that model like one or two generations and that's actually what I witnessed in my home and a lot of our beliefs get formed before with the age of seven if we don't then update them so I think that really plays into it on an individual level and when I did

the exercise, I was like, oh my God, I had to update it really quickly about how do I want to define myself as a mother in this context that I'm operating in? And there's an amazing study about guilt, which shows that, you know, why is it that typically a father won't experience as much guilt when they go off to work as a mother will? What is underneath that? And there is an amazing study, quite an in-depth, good sample-sized study done in the Netherlands that essentially show that it's how you view your role. So because fathers traditionally have viewed their role as going out and earning the money,

they don't feel guilt about going off to work. They feel like that's their role. Whereas as mothers, what sits often in our subconscious is my role is the nurture, I have to be present all times. That's where the guilt came from. And that's what that study proved. It's in the book. It was a great kind of robust study.

So that tells me that so much of it is about what we believe, our role is. Do you think some of it's innate as well? I don't know. No, I don't think so. I don't think so. The woman, I mean, it feels, it feels an eight. I don't know, but like, with me and Dave, like, I have this intense guilt that I can't shift doing anything, like, even going to the shops for myself. And he just doesn't have it. It just doesn't exist for him. Do you think that's completely constructed by our societal conditioning rather than a, than a, an innate, like a nurture. It's really interesting because what the kind of data and the research shows us

is that it's not innate and that actually is about time with your child. So I don't know what you guys think about this, but before I became a mum I heard about this thing called Mother's Instinct. And I thought that would mean that I would just know what to do, that I would find like breastfeeding really easy and the latch would just happen. And I would know what the cry meant, that there was this part of my brain that I thought was dormant. And then it would get turned on when I had a baby and I would have this instinct.

That's actually a complete myth. Instinct does develop over time through contact hours. Wow. Yeah. So it looks like instinct. It looks like, oh my God, you just know the cry. No, it's because I spent 27 hours over the last two days trying everything to fix this cry. And I worked out that it's nappy or hunger or contact, whatever it might be.

That's incredible. So it's actually about contact time and I had an amazing guest on the podcast, whose name I've forgotten, but he wrote a book called The Equal Parent and it was two gay dads who showed that actually they had exactly the same level of instinct. Really? Because it's just contact time. It's just contact time. So whoever spends the most amount of time looks like they have that innate attunement, but it's not gendered. It's actually so good to hear that because I think I've beat myself up so much over the past seven months for not having this instinct that everyone talks about, you know? And that's why I had this guest on the podcast

because I had exactly the same. Everyone always said to me, so you're going to be such a good mum, like you're so nurturing, you're so thoughtful. And I was like, genuinely thought that I would be like that as a mother and I seriously struggled,

I think because I thought that I would find it easy and natural and that's what we tell mothers. And so when we don't have that experience, instead of thinking, well, hang on, maybe I should question the conditioning that I've been told here that's going to be easy and natural. We question ourselves.

That's what we tend to do. It's great pressure, isn't it? to believe that you're going to just be gifted with this instinct the moment the baby pops out, you know? Exactly. Well, who does it benefit, right, to tell us that? Right. Who does it benefit?

So, yeah. Yeah, I think it's really important. Like, I'm super passionate about telling women about that. Yeah. Because it's one way that we can really beat ourselves up. Yeah. I think it also gives a lot of hope to the idea that if you don't bond with the baby immediately, for example, you still have, if you struggle at the beginning, it doesn't mean that you don't have it in you. It doesn't mean that it's not going to come. It means that you've got

because I yeah, I think it's such an interesting thing what you were saying about how we expect everyone to find it really easy. And I and I agree we do and we do talk about things like instinct and maternal instincts and this sort of thing. But I think the other thing that's really interesting at the moment is we don't love it when we hear from women that it's really easy. I think there's I kind of feel that we're in a bit of a paradox where we are struggling because everything within our society makes it really hard to be a mom within the current climate. But for those who don't find it that difficult or who say it's easy

or who say I enjoy this or whatever, there's quite a lot of criticism leveled at them that maybe they're to put like their privilege. So that's why they find it easy or they, I don't know, they're setting feminism back by. There's the criticism's level that people who find it easy. And they say, well, maybe you shouldn't talk about finding it easy because it's not fair on people that find it hard.

And I think this goes back to what we were saying, doesn't it, about just how triggering the whole experience can be. You know, and I think I had two really amazing home births. They were unbelievable, yeah. But for a long time, I didn't want to talk about it because I'd be so worried. I know all the stats on birth trauma. Like I know the normal experiences.

And so I wouldn't say because I'd be so protective. and then, you know, I realise actually that's doing people a disservice because I think people do need to know that you can have this unbelievable experience, but I think it talks to exactly what you're talking to, M, there is, is what we were saying at the start is how triggering this experience can be all round. I think if you say it's really hard, people say, well, don't you love your children? And if you say you find it really easy, people say, well, that's because you've got privilege and what about the people who, in many ways, you can't win?

and I think that's why the book's important because I think we do need more understanding and compassion at a societal level, not just within mums but within, you know, everyone. 100%. It's amazing that you had two positive home verses. I'm so happy for you. But I had an emergency caesarian

and I would still say it's so positive. Yeah. Loved it. And I'm going to say with people, they're like, what? And it's like, no, like it was still really, really positive. But then I feel really weird saying that. Yeah.

Which is weird. I shouldn't. My C-Section felt really positive. It's so good, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, I feel like to say I loved it, but I kind of loved it. What made it positive? I mean, and I, it was an elective C-section because I didn't want to feel out of control.

I wanted more. I would have just, I couldn't have taken the anxiety of a vaginal birth. So for me it was a choice because I was like, I need to keep that control and at least have something that's, you know, within my control. And it was just, it was a very calm and like very, very, structured and I'm so so fucking sad it was structured and I had a rootie so type A isn't she

pathetic couldn't be more highly strong but that's why I asked because that's what a lot of the studies on birth trauma show that it's not actually what happens during your birth it's how empowered and in control you feel of those decisions so when things are taken out of your hands very quickly and it feels that's when that's when birth trauma can really be difficult to process I can't even imagine and it's your body and it's something's going on and you don't have control over it.

And I think I just wanted to pick up and when you were saying about people not bonding with the baby straight away, if you have had birth trauma or a long birth like I did, I had amazing but very long birth. So there's a lot of cortisol in my body, a lot of the stress hormone. It's actually really difficult if you've had birth trauma or if you've got stressed or if you're exhausted, which who isn't. It's actually really difficult to create that oxytocin, which is the bonding hormone. So with my little girl, you know, I didn't feel that rush of absolute, like, pure love for a while. But I think because my body was just like, what just happened? Processing it.

So I really, I think it's important to normalize that as well because so many women think, oh, my God, am I not cut out for this? You know, what? It's easy to panic. I'm going to tell my sister that. That's super interesting because I don't think she knows that. And she's really struggled with not, not necessarily not. bonding with her baby, but just feeling touched out and numb for a while after her birth, because it was a traumatic birth.

Yeah. And I think that, that scientific explanation behind it is so, that's just really lovely. Yeah. And if you're someone who gets overstimulated, as in you're a highly sensitive person, then it's really common to be touched out. Or the crying can feel like, you know, nails down a shortboard. Yeah. And everyone has a different nervous system.

And this is why we can never like compare ourselves to other mothers because all each of our nervous systems will be different. Each of us will be able to handle a different amount of stress, of cry of exhaustion. And so I think that's why compassion. Like we have to be more compassionate with ourselves and understand that. I think that's the compassion with ourselves is so important. When Arlo was born, I had, I felt, I did feel that rush and I was so lucky,

but I'd had a really horrible pregnancy. And I was so, and I was so, and I, felt better like that. You needed that. And I met her and I felt better and it was like I met her but I also met myself again because it was like I came back to life and it was it was amazing but wow that's beautiful. It really was like and I know and that's what's getting me through this pregnancy is knowing that that's coming for me again and I'm really lucky and I hope it's the same and I may may not be I'm having an elective C section this time because of what happened last time and I felt really positive about it and I look forward to that but the thing that I found really hard

last time wasn't the beginning the beginning was amazing because i'd like come back to life i had this amazing baby you weren't really sick anymore i was myself again and i had like met the coolest person ever and it was so great and i loved the first like six months so much and then i said this to you all the time alex and i got to the point where al is now that's when i found it so hard because i was trying to people the leniency wears off people you know you're not new mum anymore and you're still like dealing with a kid that changes all the time and you have to go back to work and you get so touched out and you just and you're trying to joggle everything and that's where I started to really struggle but I didn't feel like I could I didn't feel like I could I don't know like

it it's really common and that's because we don't understand this word called metressants which I'm just like obsessed about sharing have you heard of it yeah this is the flingos right no so no not the phlingos I'm glad you said that before I said that out loud no one knows how to say it I actually went out onto the streets of London and held up a sign saying can you say this word no one could say it. And then I said, do you know what it is? And everyone was saying, is it a mattress company? Is it a lingerie company? That's just like, it was so funny. But yeah, so metrescence is just like adolescence. You know when you go from a teenager to an adult and it's like a bumpy time. It's a good few years. You kind of question a lot. Your hormones change.

Your body changes. Your friendship changes. What you do. Metrescence is exactly the same for motherhood. And why I love it is because it pushes those timelines out. I think because we have six week check fourth trimester and then kind of like that six month cut off yeah lots of people think i shouldn't be struggling after six months or metrescence is so amazing because it's actually like years that it takes to really settle back into yourself yeah and i think just pushing those timelines out gives us so much more compassion for ourselves and for other people around us yeah like just give us a little bit more time your hormones actually don't go back until two years after i'm a lunatic i'm an absolute lunatic i'm a whole time postpartum

now i'm pregnant again i'm just mad and i'm like okay it's all good you're in your metressants and it's meant to be like a wild time so you're kind of doing it right my husband's so patient but even he's like oh fuck fake two years it takes yeah shit shit oh my god That's amazing, but the thing is, right, is that if a young adult came to us for some advice, which, you know, why wouldn't they? And they sat down. I'd send them away. Yeah, exactly.

We'd be like, nothing. No, we can't help you, sorry. But if they were struggling and saying, I'm just really, I'm a young adult, like, I'm really struggling, like, I don't know what I want to do. And we would never say, like, don't worry, you'll get your, you'll get your teenage self back. That's so true. We wouldn't say that. Oh, I love that.

But that's what we. we say to mums we're like don't worry you get yourself back and i think that's why so many moms struggle because they feel like i have to get back to who i was i have to get back to how my relationship was how my social life was how i dressed how i looked how i thought and this process is becoming your mother like you can't of course the core of you still there but as we know like everything changes what you think about day to day changes your time changes your relationships your body changed everything changes and it's i think if we helped more women understand that you don't bounce back you you grow forwards yeah into a person with just

amazing qualities that come from surviving things and going through really hard things i think it would help so many women i love that do you think it's possible to like make peace with the process of much much as a much as then don't help her don't help her matcha sense i really want to help you Mattressants. Yeah, that's it. Mattress. Mattress. Let's just call it mattress.

Let's just call it mattress. It would be better. Do you think it's possible to make peace with the process rather than being like, but I want to skip to you, or however long it is ahead? That's the key to it. It's to make peace with the process. It's to be like, I am in this wild time of my life when everything feels like sort of upside down and my hormones are all over the show and everything's changing and my body's changing and my children are. changing in front of my eyes and yeah the more that we can just allow ourselves like give ourselves that grace just like we do with teenagers we're like oh they're going through their teenage

phase we give them a lot of space I think that's interesting I think that's what we give I think that's definitely what I felt like I had at the first six months of parenthood and I think that's where I started to struggle was when I felt like those allowances were running out yeah yeah I'd used all my chips and then it was like now I'm supposed to be back to normal no one asks you how you are anymore it's yeah yeah yeah and I think support dies down it's similar to it's grief isn't it similar you know when someone dies and often the support comes right at the start and then it's when that falls away that often that's when people can really unravel okay i have to say something on the back of that the what the criticism that's leveled at mums a lot is that

we always make it sound really negative and i think the fact that we compare it to a grief we somehow have to explain to child free people listening that actually it's still really great and it's not like a grief it's so interesting that like when we talk about it is oh thank god oh two years oh grief oh and then it's like I love it. That's the duality of it. And I think that's why the like emotional experience of motherhood is so complex because it is like the best thing that I've ever done hands down like without doubt and it's the hardest thing I've done hands down without doubt. And I think as a society we're quite emotionally immature. So what we like to do is have things black or white good or bad.

And so it's quite that's why like not on an individual level with our friends. Absolutely. We can hold lots of duality and lots of multiple ideas at the same time but I think you know when you open social media or the press coverage or it's it likes to be kind of polarised and I think that's why you find the need to be like and it's good because what people want to do is go it's terrible it's bad and we're putting women off no we're just talking about the realities and actually if we prepared women more like if we talk about metrescence more there's actually research that shows that could have a hugely positive impact on even rates of postnatal depression so this kind of really matters. Yeah. It does really matter, but I think because we love to make things binary,

we really do. We really do. Like, I remember speaking to my sister, like, just asking, just desperately questioning her before I was pregnant, like, way before, but she'd had a baby. I was like, but can you just, like, explain to me why everyone says it's so hard and it's so bad? And yet at the same time, it's the best thing everyone. I'm like, I can't understand that. There is nothing there is no other like nothing in my life that i can relate that to there's like there's nothing like i have a dog but it's not but okay some like logistical things are annoying or whatever but it's not and it's so i think it's so hard to understand that i think as well because loving my kids is the easiest thing i've ever done yeah like i woke up this morning my little four year old

and i was i just like whispered an area like i love you and i was like in that moment it was like pure just joy and love but it's not that bit that's hard it's all the other bits it's having to earn a living on top it's the mental load it's the changes in friendships and relationships and you know what happens to my nervous system when the kids kick off and being exhausted and not being able to care for myself in the way that I probably need to because of time and money and so it's not that bit that's hard it's not loving them that's hard it's everything that goes around it but that's hard to explain it is i couldn't understand it i couldn't i couldn't wrap my head around it i still sort of can't though like i still can't explain yeah yeah yeah because i'd still say that ollo's with like

without a shadow of doubt the best thing in my life best thing i've ever done yeah she's the coolest person like i love being her mom more than anything but i will still tell anyone who listens that i'm so fucking tired because a kid does not sleep and like that whatever the things are hard pregnancy is hard blah you know whatever but it's like i don't know this is no one else in the world that can like fuck you over so much and you just instantly forget like there's just there's no because we love so much it's that it's it heightens every emotion but i think it's also really important to remember like the way that we do it in the past couple of generations is like completely unnatural it's meant we're meant to be raising our children in communities so our

Our babies and our bodies are designed to raise children and communities of 50. And when it would get bigger, break off and there'd be another community. And there's this term called alloparent, which I love. And there's this amazing anthropologist who studied tribes in the Congo. And actually, the average parent would have eight aloe parents, which are like really involved other caregivers. And the kind of theory goes that that's how it's supposed to be. We're meant to have.

It's kind of that village. but it's been proven. I think for the first time that's actually how biologically we're supposed to be raising our children. Like, it's too much for our nervous system one-on-one. How many people do you have in your family? Because I think you've got the alley parents with all your siblings.

Well, no, I mean, they're kind of bored of their nieces and nephews are looking after them now. So unfortunately, I kind of miss out on that. Because most people move away. Like, I'm nowhere near my family. But it is weird because I, my sister and I, we had a baby six weeks apart. and we live very close to each other and we hang out a lot with our babies and it's interesting because

we still have to do the same amount of individual parenting when we are together than when we're separate but for some reason it feels so much easier when someone else is there and I can't really put my finger up I can't really tell you why it's just easiest, manageable

it's because we're social beings and we're meant to be around others that's why the pandemic was just so devastating for everyone so yeah I think that's why And whenever we go away in like a big group that is, does feel more like how it would have been back in the day. I'm like, oh, my God, this feels so unbelievably different to my day to day experience. You know, and there's another mum going, oh, your little one, need of the little, I took her.

Or I've put the kid's tea on for everyone. It's like, oh, my God. There's a rise in these mum communes now where moms, single moms are kind of getting together in shared housing. And, yeah, raising their children together. Yeah. Because it is so much easier. it's too much for one person to work and manage the whole mental load and do all the emotional coaching that we have to do and all the parenting is actually too much it was never designed

but that is the expectation and you did a post that went like pretty pretty viral about it that you've got pinned to your profile that I was looking at and it's like the expectations of motherhood of motherhood in 24 yeah and it was incredible when you lay it all out and and it's well it's so true that it is too much to do on your own. And when I look at my friends who have stopped work or on maternity leave or have quit their jobs to raise their kids, I genuinely take my hat off to them in ways that I would, I don't, I don't respect anybody like I respect them. Yeah. Because it's so hard to do that all the time. Yeah. But it feels so bad to say that out loud that just that, that, that, that, because nobody's recognizing what they're doing as

work, as difficult, as harder than anything else. But if you gave any, I think, I think, If you gave any dad the choice, or maybe if dad's gone by, like, do you want to spend all day doing what she does or do you want to spend all day in the office and then come home to the good bits? They'd choose the office every time. I had this amazing psychologist on the podcast who 20 years ago, maybe 30 years ago,

had written a book called Mother Care. And he's just this amazing esteemed Dr. Rick Hansenies called. He's a really esteemed psychologist, and he saw how his wife changed to go through this metressant. So he wrote a book about it. And he subsequently has done lots of research and studying on stress and looking after children because he comes at it from quite a nervous system perspective. He said, and this went viral because people were just in the comments,

like saying that's ridiculous. And then a lot of people saying, that's absolutely how I feel. But if you look at the nature of stressful activities, you really care about them, really high cortisol, like there's a lot of stress involved. You get interrupted a lot. You can't complete a task. That's what makes a stressful activity. and he said that 98% of jobs, paid jobs are less stressful

than being at home with young children. Oh my gosh. Yeah, 98. Wow. Yeah, the 2% of course being like inner city police one, A&E doctor. You know the jobs where it's a similar sort of lots of fragmented thinking. You can't get it down. You're about to pour a glass water and someone screams.

You have to put it down. Then someone's hurt themselves and your body slutted with court. Is that, it's that stressful on. our system and that's why I think you know mothers who do it or any parent that does it full time it's not gendered really are invisible how hard it is and we have that don't you when you come back from having your maternity time off if you get any people you go people go back to see how is your break it's like there's no break about it no no like I've not slept this is the break exactly I got to sit on a train and have a hot drink yeah

like with my own thoughts, that is, that is a break. Riddled with guilt, this, obviously. And riddles would guilt, not terrific about it. Yeah. No, it's fascinating. I want to ask you about, and I actually, I want to ask you about this because I feel like it's hit the mainstream more. So there's like a growing raft of parents.

And I think it's, I think it's predominantly women who are being honest about regretting the choice to have children. And I know that this originated on red, it and I think it was I haven't seen any of this oh have you not no so it so it kind of it grew on reddit a thread about people talking about like regretting becoming a parent and it's hit the mainstream because my mom rang me and was like I've just read an article in the times I think so I just read an article in the times that I wrote yeah yeah I'm sorry love but I had to contribute

she's like can you believe it all these all these people who regret having having children I can't believe you haven't seen it. No. Okay. But it's a fucker of a thing. I mean, that must be a horrible place to be. To regret having your kids. Yeah.

And it sounds like impossible. Like, how can you regret that? And actually, I, so I looked into it. And when you dig into it, it's like these people, they regret having children, but they don't regret their, it's very complicated to explain. Yeah, and this is what we were talking about before. to split out, loving your child versus the challenges that come around it. Particularly if you had like a neurodiverse child or a disabled child or you yourself

had huge mental health problems or you yourself had an accident became disabled or any number of things that can just add on a whole extra pile of complexity and challenge, I think I can understand how someone would say this has made my life really difficult, but it doesn't mean that I don't love the person the child and I think it's complex because it requires quite a lot of you know pulling those threads almost like a knotted up ball of wool isn't it and you have to kind of pull the threads and think okay what what what's going on here but I can see why if if some people love their child but the experience of parenthood has deeply challenged them on a physical level on emotional level why people could think would my life have been easier

Yeah, well, I think most people can probably, which kids probably can say that their life would be easier if they hadn't had kids, right? I don't know. I don't know. I think most of the worthwhile things in life, I think whatever it is come with challenge because if things easy, I don't know.

I don't know if that's necessarily true. Really? Yeah, I think if you are someone now, like if you are someone in the throes of it, like we're in the position that you or I or Zosin, that, like, in the first few years when you're still within the, I'm not even going to try and say that word, but within the first two years, yes, you may be able to look back and say, and actually, I'm sure there are lots of people

who make huge financial sacrifices, like you say, have like a plethora of reasons why. But I don't know, there's, I guess, the thing we don't talk about is the regret of not having them when you could have had them. Yeah. There's that other side of it as well. But just for ease, I think all of our parents would say, yes. our lives would have been easier. I don't know because I don't know

because let's say maybe it's not maybe your children have brought you a purpose your life wouldn't necessarily have been so easy if you hadn't if you never found your purpose I imagine that's quite a difficult way to live or if your children have brought you the happiness that you couldn't find anything else your life wouldn't necessarily be easier

without that happiness like yeah I don't know because I do think that kids because we talk about this in the context of babies all the time they're not going to be babies forever they become people and then those people are kind of like those people still depend like to a lesser degree sure but they still I mean I'm 35 and my youngest sisters are 28 and we all I mean they're all five of us there's a lot but my poor mom's still fucking frazzled she's just like guys leave me the fuck alone my mom's doing the child care right now so I'm on this thing and I never end my mom's become grandpa in Iceland she's fine

she's living her best life yeah she's living her best life I think The likes are a breed on to their own. We are, we are. Yeah, ridiculously. Yeah. But I think any big experience in life brings emotional complexity, doesn't it? And I think, I'm not sure that word regret is like that feels like a kind of click-baity word, doesn't it? Exactly.

If you scratch under the surface of that, what you would probably find is just a plethora of experiences and emotions. Yeah, right. And I think we do this with guilt. Like, when something is so complicated, it's quite easy to like stamp a word on it. guilt or regret or whatever it is and i and i think probably like if you read i haven't read it i'm going to after this but i think if you scratch under the surface what you would find would be a far richer nuanced conversation totally yeah yeah thinking about our listeners yes i think a lot of them will be child free a lot of it probably circumstantially they're just not there

yeah they're not at that point in their life yet but probably thinking about it or it's kind of on the horizon. And I think there's a general feeling that a lot of what, okay, I've got to be careful how I say this because I don't want this to sound like I'm blaming or shaming mothers at all. I'm not. But I think the one of the inadvertent impacts of mothers sharing so much and being so honest about motherhood and sharing the difficulties is that it's for people who don't have children yet and are still deciding it's kind of it's it's terrifying basically it's really like freaking them out and i think that's i think that's becoming clearer as we are opening up on social media and it's and it's strange because we need we need that side of it for the mothers who are struggling like

obviously that's incredibly important to have to feel heard and to have people be open about that and to know that your experience isn't individual but it's also i think at the same time having this impact of just really terrifying people who are yet to be parents and it's difficult right because it's like where I don't think there's an answer actually I don't think there's like my perspective and I thought about that a lot when I was writing the book I was like if someone happens to pick this up who isn't I mean predominantly it's aimed at like people who are pregnant or know they want to get pregnant but if someone picked it up who had who didn't know what what would they think and I think when we say that something's

hard, but then we give some tools to help with the hard. I think that's what's really important because just saying something is really hard is useful to some extent, right? Because it normalises lots of people who are on the other side of that. I think, okay, there's nothing wrong with me. You know, I am finding it hard. Okay, it doesn't mean that I'm broken or I'm not cut out for this. Other people are experiencing that. That's amazing. But I think we also have forgotten, and that's what I'm trying to do with this book, is we've forgotten to the other side of that, which is it's hard and there's absolutely tons that we can do to make it easier, more joyful, more positive.

Like there's absolutely tons that we can do. It's not that we just say it's hard and then we put like a full stop next to it. That's a really good point. And I think that's where we've kind of missed out on the conversations because when I start, when I became mother and I looked for something like Motherkind, what I created, there was nothing. there was tons of like positive psychology podcasts about money about work about relationships like

tons of it tons of coaching about how to do this how to do nothing about motherhood and I thought that I'm finding this hard but my natural kind of way of being is like so what do I do like give me something and I think that's where we're moving that's what I'm trying to move the conversation on a bit which is because when I first became a mum the best selling book was hurrah for gin do you know You guys know that way. It's really funny, but it's basically like it's fucking hard. Let's drink through it. And I've been sober for well over a decade.

So I was like, okay, I'm screwed. Yeah. I can't even. I can't. If that is the answer that we've got, I am fucked. Yeah. So I think that's partly what kind of pushed me into learning, like, everything that I have. Because I couldn't rely on like a glass of wine or two at the end of the day.

I had to do other stuff. And I think, I think when we do the two, when we say it's hard, it normalizes. it and you just haven't got the it's like that word matressants like if we got that word out I think it would radically change if we if I taught people what I teach about guilt like what it really is and how to shift it you wouldn't have all these mums you know saying I'm so guilty going to work because they would be able to reframe it for themselves it's just that you know in many ways like in the medical system we just haven't given the information that women need no I haven't given it I think the other thing is that we put so much blame on the woman

for saying that it's hard. And we get angry with her for saying that it's hard. And I think a big part of that is coming from the fact that for a long time women weren't really allowed to say that it was hard. Yeah, we've definitely had a bit of a pendulum. Yeah, and it's like... They all come into the middle.

Yeah. But it's the fact that it's hard, it's not the woman's fault. It's society's fault. You know, look at the work that the Flex Appeal campaign has done. And that's going to completely change the game for so many people. But if we can't stand up and say, literally is too hard. We need concessions.

We need affordable child care. We need flexible working hours. We need to be allowed to leave to do pick up and drop off. We need to be allowed to tell you during the summer holidays that this isn't feasible. We need to be allowed to acknowledge that our children exist. And I don't think, I think this is where we're getting really frustrated. It's like women are vocalising the issues that historically they've just been asked to be quiet. And we're really uncomfortable with that.

It's like, it's not really what the women are saying that's the problem. It's the fact that they're saying anything at all. I think you're right. And you see that, you know, you guys see that on your platforms. You know, whenever you say anything, when you make an invisible experience visible, which is what is happening, I think, and then like the macro motherhood landscape in the moment,

people don't like it. No. And then there's a lot of, well, if you don't like it, why did you choose to have children? But I think, like, you can't, it's such a ignorant way to have this conversation. Like the cost of childcare is, so astronomical paternity leave is the or the lack of taking paternity leave the the lack of access to paternity leave is one of the biggest contributing factors to the gender pay gap but this is not talked about and I think people don't realize that like within the conversation of motherhood and within the conversation of these difficulties we have so many of the systemic issues that affect all of us so hugely yeah and it's so annoying that because women are saying it we're moaning yeah we just should be putting up with

it and cracking on and we've made the choice so we should just go with it i really feel like i've touched a nerve on myself i've got really annoyed it's true though and that's and that's what i'm talking about like we need to separate out the the systemic experience of motherhood as an institution where we bat up against all these like like you were saying the conditioning that we give to ourselves and so that you know the child care costs the lack of paternity leave and then when we do have share leave the take up is two percent because it's such a complex system that most HR departments can't even begin to navigate that they just sort of try and put people off it. So, yeah, I think when we can separate out that with our, you know, wanting to

have children, that's where our real power lies. Because then it frees us up and to have way more confidence to talk like you just did so kind of powerfully about the structural challenges. Because I think we're having, just thinking about a conversation I've been having my best friend recently. And she's like, I'm totally, like, I'm totally, I want, I think I want kids, but this is the issue and it's like and it feels like it's like when you choose to have a baby you're signing the dotted line saying like okay well that's my lot now like life's going to be hard now work will suffer my career will and that's just that and it's like no it doesn't have to just be that but we have to let it not just be that we have to let everybody talk about it and I don't know I just I still think like

all the like even just the words we use around the work that like you're doing for example like mummy bloggers or whatever it's just like it kind of it just de and It's like, no, it's so much more than that. It's like mental health campaigners, like equality activists. Yeah. It's like, it's so much more than just like. It's really interesting because when I first started, no one really got what I was doing. And they would just be like, oh, so you're starting a parenting podcast.

No, it's nothing to do with parenting. Like I'm not going to talk about how to potty train or how to wean or how to feed. Like there's some other amazing people that do. I want to talk about the mother's experience in her individual experience from a kind of, you know, psychological perspective and the systemic experience of motherhood and honestly it's different now but when I started it eight years ago I just got a lot of blank faces and then go okay so it's parenting no it's not parenting I had to keep even now even today like I'll get booked onto something like a radio shot something they'll be like can you give us tips for how to keep kids off the screens I'm like no

because I don't know God help me too but you know and I think we hopefully are at the start of that changing, but it's been like eight years of sort of pushing a lot of water up the hill, with it? Disorientating for the focus to be on the, on the mother. People didn't get it. They really didn't get it. Well, we're coming off the back of this kind of era of like real childism where we're just completely focused on, you know, the child and ignoring the parent. And that when I first started reading the parenting books, to me they were wild.

They would talk about all this parenting tools and techniques. but not reference how your nervous system was or what was going on for you or the pressures that you were under because, you know, I studied and I knew enough that about mirror neurons that the number one way to calm another human down is to calm yourself first, just mirror neurons. It's just like, you're calm. We all know that. When someone frantic walks in to a room, you all get frantic. Everyone knows that. Like in a meeting, when someone walks in in a bad mood, it changes the whole mood of the meeting. It's exactly the same with our kids, but none of the parenting books this was eight years ago that I were reading we're referencing anything to do

of the state of the parent and it was meant I was like how I was like what am I missing and so that's when I thought you know what we have to create something that focuses on you know the parent and I wanted to focus on the mother because that was my experience and now you have and it's here yeah this has been great have you got more I've got so I've got so much more um we do have to wrap up which is really annoying because I've just got so, I can't, I can't wait to read a book. I think you're going to read, I hope, well, I hope you're going to like it. I definitely want you to give me a few, but I think you're going to love the bit on guilt. I'm definitely going to love the bit on guilt.

Because I've like, what I've tried to do is really scratch, like, quite deep under the surface. Okay. What is going on here? Using, like, my own life and using loads of studies and loads of amazing people. I've just opened one page and it's examples of boundaries of grandparents. I'm the agony out of the metro and I get, that's probably the thing I get, I get weddings and how do I put a boundary

in with my mother-in-law? It's really, it's really tricky. Yeah, there's a whole section on boundaries. It's so good for us out. How to stay calm in almost any situation? Oh, I just need to, like, print that out and literally stick it to day's forehead. You need this book, I need this book.

I need this book, Jesus. Wow, okay, it's so great. Amazing. That permission to disappoint is massive because if you are not willing to disappoint your partner, your family or friends, sometimes your kid, you are never going to get your needs met as a mum. And the moment I figured that out, I was like, oh, so I just have to go out to the thing even though my kids are going, don't go, okay.

Or even though my husband's like grumpy because I'm asking him to do another bit of childcare or something, I just have to be okay with other people not be okay with me. And as a good girl, that is really, really hard to do. And the moment I got that, My motherhood completely changed. Wow. Completely changed. Congratulations.

This is really exciting. This is probably a redundant question because this is obviously such a, mottress. Oh, fuck, I can't say it. Matressens. Matrescence. Yeah. It's such a huge topic and we could probably talk about it for hours.

So this question is probably quite redundant. But do you think there's anything, is there anything that you want to finish with that you feel has been left out of this conversation so far that you're like, I really want to. oh god there is there's so much you know and i think you know we sort of scratch the surface a little bit on some of it but the second chapter in the book is called get on your own side and a few people like why is that the second chapter like why is it not about gill and the reason it is is because i think that if we can support ourselves and actually stop that part of us that's being like

you're not good enough and you're failing and you're doing it wrong if we can actually become a bit of a to ourselves we can get through so much like we're really resilient but what most mothers do is that it's hard it's hard individually it's hard society and then we decide that we're doing it wrong we're not good enough and that makes it like triple hard so i'd say that's really important how to do that and i give like super quick everything in that book is like you can do it in two minutes because that's all i had to that's all i've got time for so in two minutes i give like little ideas for how to quickly stop that like spiral of guilt spiral of shame spiral of being yourself up how to quickly change it and then there's a whole bit on your emotions and how to deal with like anger sadness

grief like all of it but all with the lens of motherhood and what can happen and also so great amazing thank you so much so we'll leave the link to it in our show notes and to your instagrams people can come and find you but this has been absolutely amazing amazing Yeah, I've so much. Loved it. Should I delete that is part of the ACAS creator network.