Should I Delete That? - Women gamble too — and we need to talk about it

Episode Date: October 23, 2022

This week, the girls sat down with GambleAware CEO Zoë Osmond, psychologist Dr Linda Papadopoulos and two women with lived experience of gambling harms, Jo and Lisa, to learn more about women and gambling. They spoke about the unique challenges women who experience gambling harms may face, and what could we all do to have better conversations about this topic.If you are worried about your gambling or that of a loved one, or are starting to lose track of time, spending more than you can afford, or hiding your gambling from others, please don’t hesitate to visit BeGambleAware.org for free confidential support, or call the National Gambling Helpline on 0808 8020 133Follow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] & edited by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

That night, I won £127,000. No one ever sat me down and said, you've won life-changing money. My mortgage was £65,000. And I didn't pay my mortgage off. And for the next 16 years, till I was 45, I gambled every day. I ended up homeless and lost about half a million pound. Hello, welcome to the podcast. Oh, Christ, okay, sorry.

We are changing things up. We have to be more efficient. We talked for too long. No, we're not chatting out. We're recording. We're busy. We're busy fucking people, all right. Okay.

Time is money. Bam, bam, bam. Hello everyone. Welcome to the podcast. Yeah, we talk too much. Yeah, we're cutting it down. We're cutting it down. This is good, bad and awkward.

Bing, bang, bosh. This is, this is you're wasting time. Sorry. Tell me something good. Okay. My good is, um, I finally found a heatless curl method. that actually works for me. When I tell you, I saw on Instagram, I woke up the next morning

and I was like, that was the first thing I did. I was like, how did it go? How did it go? How did it go? You weren't up yet? I was like, fuck. Honestly, I've never had so much joy in my inbox than this, like ever. People were genuinely so happy for me. I think because the situation has just been quite desperate. It's been a bit sad, yeah. It's been sad, it's been desperate. I've had literally thousands of people tell.

me you've got really thin hair and I'm like okay I know thank you fuck off it's actually yeah no I do have thin hair whatever anyway and it actually finally worked I mean the bar is low when I looked like when I was doing it at the time I was like fuck this is amazing and then when I looked back at the video I was like it's actually not that good I think the bar is just so low the bar was very low bar was so low that it was it was like it was passable curls and I was very happy I'm proud of you I'm happy for you too I don't really have so much of a good

other than that this isn't our reality right now so like the good thing is that I woke up this morning because last night I had a dream that I gave birth to my baby and we had agreed to go on a press trip to Dubai and obviously I had not I didn't want to go to Dubai because there's a lot of reasons I don't want to go to Dubai

I don't like Dubai but I didn't want to go and then I gave birth to the baby and I had the baby and I was like, fuck, I'm supposed to be at the airport now. And you were being such a knob. You were like, where are you? And I've just had the baby. And you were like, you were going to miss the flight.

Literally. So I was like, right. So I left the baby. I mean, literally called cut, see ya, with my mom, came to the airport. And we got there and I checked in with you. And then I was like, oh, I just really don't feel right about this. Like, I just don't think I can go to see by right now. And you were like, for fuck's sake.

And then you went off and made like two friends. And you went and sat in a lounge. somewhere and I was just sitting by myself and I was like I'm just such a bad mom. So bleeding. Like I still got the morphine like running through you. Like milk coming out of me. And I was on FaceTime to my mom and she's like, yeah

yeah, the baby's fine. And I was like I should be with the baby and you were just being such a like, I see you next Tuesday. And I was like, you know what? I'm going to go home. And then I couldn't find anyone to take me home in the car. I was like, I'd seem to get back to my baby. And then I just was like, I'm never going to forgive Alex for taking this, this away from me.

And then I just remember being like have a nice time in Dubai you dick and then I woke up this morning and I was like well thank God for that I'm still pregnant and now's not in Dubai I promise not to do that to you I promise to never try and make you go to Dubai because I don't want to go either thank you and I also promise

not to rip you away from your baby as soon as it's born off the day it's born to go on a press trip to Dubai you were literally in W8 Smith at the airport just like really like kicking off at me and I was like for fuck sake I've just had a kid it reminds me my dream last night I've really gotten into the US office

and I was watching on TikTok videos of Steve Carell and there was one of like fans trying to get his autograph and stuff and then I dreamt that I was a celebrity and I was trying to get a flight but I couldn't because people kept stopping me for pictures and autographs and I was like guys I just want to get my flight

I woke up like I'm so glad I'm not a celebrity it would be tiring it would be sourceding all the time you just get stuck you get stuck So, yeah, okay, I promise not to take you away from your baby. Thanks, that's nice. Anything bad, my bad.

Is it really bad? No, no, because I've turned a corner with it. My bad has turned into my good, but it was my bad. Anyway, my vegetarianism. Oh, no. Has been tested. What kind of a pig have you slaughtered? Has been tested, okay?

And it's always bacon. And this summer I've had quite a few. falls off the wagon. Yeah. And it's been bad and I'm really not happy with myself. And on holiday, it was bad because, I mean, in Cyprus, vegetarian options are, as you can imagine, are very limited, not great. And yeah, I wasn't, I don't know, and I feel, but I've been home for a week and a bit

now and I am so back on the veggie train. When you say you went off the wagon, did you just like slip and it's like, oh, there's like a rasha in my Caesar in my Caesar salad or was it like face first into like 14 Big Macs and a hot dog? No like I wouldn't I wouldn't eat like that kind of stuff but like

bacon I just has like I've got a fucking soft it's got hold over me and when I get that smell I kind of turn feral so yeah no when I slip I tend to slip big and have like rather than like oh we're a rasha and I'll have like

17 rashes It doesn't even need to be cooked and just like What's I going to call it a hog on the hob But it's not called that is it A hog on the cob? No that's a corn on the cob What's they called a hog roast? Yeah Hog on the cob

Um Yeah Okay my bad Less bad probably not great But such as my life now The bar's just so low that I'm not even expecting this to be that bad But my sickness has come back in a big way this week Just out of fucking nowhere

was mind of my business yeah so annoying but apparently that happens I just think I just think sickness is part of the pregnancy experience I don't think it's going away I think I was an idiot to think otherwise I'm still on the medication I'm fine anyway I think it's worse when I'm tired and stressed and I've been very tired and stressed because

I'm just such a boss bitch I'm not just because I can't handle fucking anything so I've just been tired and anyway I was sick and this has happened twice this week out and I can't believe this has happened twice this week and bear in mind I've been sick I mean I must have been sick a thousand times in this pregnancy but this for some reason

this week has just been we've gone up a notch it's like we've gone up a level I've graduated so my dad's house of the day and I was sick as I was sick no it landed with such a plop yeah no no no no no no no you just came back oh my gosh and hit the face that that that I walked out of the room and I was like, I'm, I've just sick on my own, I was just sick on my own face. And then, as if that wasn't bad enough, when I got back to London on Monday, or Tuesday, Monday, I got back to London on Monday, it happened again, it splashed back again. And I was so aggressively sick that as I was sick, I peed myself a tiny bit. And as I started peeing myself, the splashback hit me again.

the eye and I just thought this isn't good quite a low point yep it felt bad that is quite bad yeah it's not good it's not good and I don't know why it's just happened twice this week where it's never happened before but twice in three days

twice than two days have hope that it will go away though the sickness no no no or if I just give you false hope yeah it's the John Cleese quote despair you can handle it's the hope that kills you oh yeah I like that yeah you can't have hope you can't I'm very happy to despair And I can just sit there and go, fuck, say,

but you know what, I'm well over halfway, it's fine. It's fine. It's better than it was. It won't last forever. And it's like the ultimate kinder egg surprise at the end because I get a baby, so it'll be worth there. And it's going to be like double whammy. It'd be triple, it would be the hat trick.

I've got a baby. I haven't got to go to Dubai with you. And for Satan has stopped. So it's going to be a good day. Anything awkward. That goes to Dubai. what about like South Africa like you could do that

if the kid can come yeah but I just I think it was just like leaving like genuinely I was like out the hospital like there's a car waiting outside for me because we're going to Dubai oh that makes me feel really queasy but just leaving my kid just like you're just like freshly given birth

yeah all my insides are still like hanging on the outside like you haven't even given your percentage it was literally that like it was an obscene situation when I woke up this morning and I just like felt like the bump was still there and like I didn't have like an umbilical cord like hanging from a vaj. I was like, oh, praise me.

Thank God. It was going to be a good day. The umbilical cord doesn't hang from the badge. Of course it does. Oh yeah, no wait. Yeah. And then it just back up again. Fuck off.

That's what happens. No, it doesn't. Yes, it does. I'm going to Google it. Because you cut it and then. No, but each baby produces their own individual. Yeah, so you cut it and then, okay. Well, do you just imagine you just like pull it out like a magic?

I just went on to my Google and what was waiting for me was a ton of strapless dildos, don't ask, we've been recording. What happens to the umbilical oh yeah oh Daisy said it's attached to the placenta

oh cord when so yeah it probably does hang down a bit and then when you Daisy said don't quote me cried too late the floor when you give birth

I think that does make sense Daisy in the womb the umbilical cord delivers oxygen and nutrients needed to allow your baby to grow after birth the cord is clamped and cut leaving a stump this eventually falls off yeah but what happens to the other end of it

yeah what happens to the other end yeah the umbilical cord and attached to the placenta so if you didn't cut it it would take 10 days for it to detach from the baby on its own imagine like sweet little newborn and

oh what's that like a big like sack of juices just attached to it all the time oh right yeah that wouldn't look so good in the newborn pictures that people hire photographers

for yeah so okay so that makes it the baby's born then you cut it then you have to give birth to the placenta that's an absolute

whiz can I just say I have to give birth to two things and I'm only getting one baby and I know that it's a miracle and the precentor is amazing I'm not eating it but I've just read something

that's really knocked to me Like the placenta is a pancake-shaped mass of blood vessels. Yeah. Oh, she just goes through. I know. I've got one in my tummy now. When things that are not supposed to be eaten are attached are like described in food terms. Why do I want to eat it?

Someone said this to me and this, no, it was a sonographer doing the scan and she was obviously being very diplomatic, like in case I did say I wanted to eat it. But I saw the placenta and I was like, ugh. And she was like, yeah. And then obviously I was just like, and people eat it. And she was trying to be diplomatic in case I did want to eat it and I'm not going to fucking eat that. She was like, oh good.

Can you see it on the scan? Yeah. Because we're not supposed to get distracted. Daisy, we're not getting distracted. We're not going to so quick. But the placenta can be in different places, right? So they have to check

because you don't want it to be at the bottom because then it blocks the cervix. So then having a baby is going to be a nightmare because the placent is in the way. So you might have to have a C-section if it doesn't move. If it's at the front of your womb, an anterior. I can't remember what it's called.

If it's at the front, then you can't feel the baby moving so much. So mine's right at the back, which is a perfect place, which is why, it's like top right, basically, mine. Which is why I've been able to feel, our little baby kick today, guys. But that's why I can feel the baby kicking. And I have been able to since like 17 weeks, 16 weeks. Maybe, no, maybe later than that. Because I didn't know that, that it can be in like different places.

Yeah, so that's a big thing they do at the 20 week scan. It's they like check where the placenta is to check that it's in like the right position. Because I think one of my friends had it really low down, but then it moved last. minute you want it to move last minute basically or you want it to move at some point because otherwise it's going to be in the way that makes sense I know because you don't want to give birth the placenta first you can't no no no you can't because the because the thing drains the womb drains that's when your water's break or the amniotic fluid goes yeah so then your baby's only got like a finite amount of time we need to get out because obviously they need liquid so you haven't got time to

be fucking about with the placenta you've got to get human out there yeah yeah yeah I am learning like a nice little like like pre like a little pre like a starter yeah that would be nice the actual baby but okay um awkward what's your awkward oh um i lent down in the park the other day to put the lead on booer and i didn't close my mouth properly and i dribbled on her head on boo's head and she just shook and then we just carried on um my awkward happened today i've been i've been keeping this in all day I got off the train at Charing Cross and was obviously like furiously on my phone like I don't know what I was doing

like trying to sort something out whatever and I was paying absolutely no attention and I went smack bang into I actually don't know what it is because I ran away so fast and I didn't turn around to see what it was because I just wanted to get away from everything I walked smack bang into this very hard metal structure pillar

and I said sorry to it and then I ran away fucking mortified a train full of people all getting off together everyone saw it. You've done loads of embarrassing shit today. Oh God, well, what was we're doing? You came in my segment of the Spinney Doors and you stopped the thing. I hate people getting in my segment. Daisy Grant, I see you looking at me, you got in my segment too, and you've also got it stopped.

I did it because you hate it. So twice people have got in my segments today and twice you stopped it, emergency stopped it. So stay out my fucking segment. But then also, we were in Leon for lunch and someone said, Alex, here's your order. And you went to go and get the order and it wasn't for you. I literally picked up the order It was clearly not my own It was definitely not what

It was like a rap and something But I was like a burger Alex Yes it's like there's no other possibility So I was just like grabbing it And this girl like tap me on the child And she was like sorry My name's Alex too

And I think that's mine I was like fuck that's definitely yours That's not mine Also I ordered mine like two seconds ago It'd have to be extremely quick So you were just You're a celebrity like in your dream I'm a celebrity what can I say

I'm a star Rushing you through Leon Don't make Alex lightweight for a wrap. Alex Lightweight for no one, actually. Alex Lightwick for no rap. It's just too important. Wow, well, we've actually...

So barreled through that as per the instructions. Thank you. Thank you. Everybody's very happy. Daisy looks chuff. I was about to take us on a tangent, but I'm not going to do it. Fine, I will. I went to veggie prep today, and I didn't know veggie prep was the thing,

and all the pastries are vegan. And if I haven't mentioned it yet, since being pregnant, I can eat gluten. I've had a gluten intolerance for eight years. Weirdest fucking thing. Out of nowhere. Boom. Gone.

Just gone. It's so weird. And I'm making the most of it because I don't know how long it's going to last. And sometimes it lasts after pregnancy. Sometimes it doesn't. Oh my God. Fingers crossed. I know.

I'm going to force it to fucking last. I think you should. Yeah. But just in case it doesn't, my Alex has been taking me to Italian restaurants all over London to make the most. And I try every single pasta dish we can. We're running out of time. We've got to go, go, go. Yeah.

And, yeah. And veggie prep. Holy shit. I've had a pan of chocolate, I've had a chocolate brownie. In my bag, I've got another fruit croissant to try. And yeah, we went to Leon burger. Yeah, last night I went to an Italian restaurant. I had a pasta dish.

I'm a whole, it's a whole new world. I think it's going to last after pregnancy. Yeah. And I, yeah. As you would say, I'm manifesting it. A manifest, 100%. 100%. We have a really important episode today.

We do. Let's get into it. We're really excited about today's episode. which we've done in partnership with gamble aware. The charity has launched a prevention campaign targeting women to raise awareness of vital support available for those who may be struggling. And at a time where the rising cost of living could lead to an increase in gambling harms against women,

we thought this was a really good time to do an episode like this. Concerning statistics show that one in ten women are already using gambling to try and supplement household income. And one in five women who gamble already are experiencing mental health challenges such as stress and anxiety due to gambling. For this reason, Gamble Aware, the charity has launched a campaign for women who gamble. And they're trying to raise awareness of the critical warning signs of gambling and how to seek support. So if you are worried about you or your loved ones gambling or you're starting to lose track of time, spending more than you can afford or hiding your gambling from others,

please don't hesitate to visit begamblerware.org for free confidential support. support. Or call the National Gambling Helpline on 0808-808-80233. In this episode, we speak to two gambling addicts Lisa and Joe, who are now in recovery and they very bravely shared their stories with us and shared advice for anyone who might be in a similar position. We really love the interview and cannot wait for you to hear it. It's a perspective that we just haven't heard before because as we talk about a lot in this episode, when a lot of us think about gambling, it's men that are doing it. So it was a really valuable perspective and we can't wait for you to hear from them. But first we spoke to the charity CEO, Zoe Osmond and psychologist Dr Linda Papadopoulos.

Hi everyone. So today we are joined by Zoe Osmond, who is a CEO of charity gamble aware and chartered counselling and health psychologist Dr Linda Papadopoulos. And we are so happy that you're here to discuss and raise awareness around gambling in women, which is something that you're that is becoming increasingly more common and yet there's still a huge stigma around it. So we're really happy that we're doing this episode to kind of raise some awareness and just talk about it

and have an open conversation about it. So Zoe, we'd love to start with you and find out, in your words, what gamble aware is, what it does and what you do specifically. Absolutely. So we are a charity and we commission prevention and treatment services

which basically at one end make people aware of the risks of gambling. I mean, gambling as of itself are sort of a huge leisure activity in this country, but it comes with risks. So at one level, making people aware of those risks. And at the other, basically educating people about the risks and providing people with support, advice, and where to go for treatment. So we commissioned treatment services, which can vary right through from sort of counselling through to residential services

where you actually have to go and receive treatment for three months. so right from every level of extremity to do with gambling unfortunately you make a really interesting point about it being a leisure activity in the UK and I don't know this is inappropriate to say about my own nation

but I do feel like we normalise a lot of behaviours that other cultures perhaps don't think are so standard and I reference drinking or bin's drinking as one of those as well but when I think of gambling as a leisure activity I sort of think of it more as like lads betting on the football more so

I don't really imagine it as something that women do for leisure, but it is common, Linda, right, among women? It is, and I think the worry is that it is becoming more common. It's fast increasing. And here's the rub. I think when I looked at the data from Gamble aware, it's not just that it's increasing, it's that because it's more stigmatizing for women,

because we don't know about it as much. You're absolutely right. You kind of think of the guy at the races. And that is often a barrier to a way. woman either acknowledging that she has this issue or seeking support for it. And therein lies the problem, right? Because when we're talking about gambling or any other kind of behavior that eventually involves harm if it becomes a compulsion, if you don't acknowledge it as such, or if you feel that this is so stigmatizing, I shouldn't have this, other women don't have this,

then that becomes a problem. And I kind of liken this to, you know, back even a few years ago, you'd say heart disease and you'd just think of the guy, right? The guy eating a bunch of steak and it was like women weren't and of course women have heart disease and it's to me, right, it's something really similar. Actually, I mean you're right and a lot of women don't even see what they're doing is gambling really

because basically a lot of the advertisers is portrayed as quite sort of innocent and fun and playful and social and they don't recognise it to be gambling and therefore as a result if they do begin to suffer from an experience some harm from gambling they are unaware of what they should do

and where to go to for support. So So getting people to open up and have the conversation is a big step in the right direction. Kind of slightly off script, but I'm wondering if we can have, if there's any way of defining where it tips from being a leisure activity into being a problem, what are the, like for someone with their own gambling, say they don't know if it's a problem or not, what would be the defining traits, would you say, the characteristics? Well, there's a few things you can look at. So I think one of them is if you're losing track of time, right? So that sense of kind of becoming so into it that, you know, you thought you'd play, you know, whatever online for half an hour and then three hours later you're doing it. The second is if it's costing you money you don't have, right? So that's harmful.

So I thought I'd go on and I'd, you know, I'd spend 10 pounds and then 100, 200 pounds later, I'm still there. And the third one, and this is really interesting, is that I'm beginning to hide and lie, right? because that kind of speaks to this idea that I know what I'm doing is wrong, that there's a problem, but also I feel that stigma and I can't get help. So I think those are the three main things to look at. Absolutely. So, I mean, the hiding is the real signal. I mean, there are sort of a what's called the PGSI sort of severity index.

So you can basically go away and do a quick, in fact, on our website is a sort of a questionnaire, so you can start to work out whether you're beginning to sort of show some of the signs of harm. So one of them, the most obvious one is, you know, have you ever bet more than you can afford? So that is a really big red flag. But in doing so, you know, one shouldn't feel ashamed or embarrassed. One should feel, okay, well, I now need to fix this issue and know where to go for help or at least just go to the Be Gamble Aware website and look for what the tips and advice and support is available.

I think that's a really interesting point. I think psychologically, and I find that this is an issue with behavioral change anywhere. You know, it's sort of when I speak to women about kind of, I'm afraid to get. get on the scale. It's not a report card. It's a data point. I'm afraid to see if there's a problem. It's not a report card. It's not saying you're a good person or a bad person. It is a data point. And with that data point, you're then able to think, okay, what do I need to do? I didn't realize this was a problem or maybe I was lying to myself. And the way of getting over that stigma is to kind of reframe what you see that information as. So there's no power

without responsibility, right? And you need to see that as something that empowers you to take responsibility to make that behavioral change. If I could go back to your point about the leisure industry and a leisure activity, I mean, you're right it's sort of part of the culture of Britain, if you think about it, the national lottery, which is

a form of gambling. It's a more benign form of gambling, but it is essentially gambling, and I know it raises an enormous amount of money for good causes, right through to the fact that you're going down to the old-fashioned view of going down to the bookies with your dad or whatever to make a bet, through the Grand National. So it's sort of in the psyche, and people grow

up in households where there are people are making bets or gambling or whatever terminology they choose to use. So it's really important that as children ended into adult hod, they are aware of the fact that this is a risky activity. It's a leisure activity maybe, but it's a risky activity. And it's important that people are educated. You're right. I do think you realise because I remember even like my grand would take us to Doncaster races, which is where she's from. And it would be like, but she'd give us a pound to put on a horse and it's like you don't equate that as being real money because it's not your money so if you do grow up with that every year and that carried on with the ground

national and everything and yeah it's so true but um i wonder if you have any statistics on how many women are gambling in the UK and like what it was that caused you or caused gambler to launch a campaign that was specifically focused at women so they're around um six million women who gamble in Great Britain. And the areas of concern for us is this sort of perfect storm brewing. So what we've seen is an increase in number of women gambling, particularly online. I mean, you'd expect some increase because we all walk around with our phones, so people are moving towards online gambling more and more.

And it's about 28% for men, but it's about 54% for women over the last five years. And that particularly ticked up during the pandemic, you know, people at home, bored, trying to anxious escape, et cetera. So you've got that on one hand. Then you've also got huge numbers of women who actually are what we call affected others. So they may be affected by the man or somebody else in their household that is gambling.

So we also need to send the same message to them. And then on top of that, we've obviously dealing with an unprecedented cost of living crisis. And we are deeply concerned that with this cost of living crisis and we've done some research that shows that a number of women are turning to gambling to sort of help to alleviate. the household bills is a massive issue for concern. And then the final thing is we've seen a doubling of the number of women presenting for treatment,

which I suppose is good because they're coming forward for treatment, but it's the trends data around it that is giving us cause for concern. So all of these are pointing to this sort of sign of a perfect storm and therefore as a result this sort of campaign that we've just launched is critical so that we can prevent. It's a prevention campaign rather than trying to get people directly into treatment. It's great if we can, but it's essentially making people just aware of the risks. Such a good point about the cost of living.

Was it this morning that did, like, you can win your bills being paid for a year? And I guess it's like a couple of companies, a couple of medias have done that. And it's like... Terrifying. Absolutely terrifying. Yeah. And then I guess like combined with the prevalence of gambling adverts, they are everywhere, aren't they? They're everywhere.

And once you start to notice them, then you see them everywhere. because we're kind of used to them but once you point them out it becomes it's I just think fascinating to see how out in the open it is and that's the thing I think in the same way

we've kind of demedicalized plastic surgery and it's just like oh get this time we've kind of taken away the harm element of gambling so it's all the colors

I think they're very much directed towards them it's all these sort of pretty colors and the social media I mean I think you know I think that's something we've got to remember as well so this is no longer a seedy bar with smoke in the air.

This is you speaking with your friends. It feels like, you know, there's something in the world of social media called entanglement. It's one of the reasons that kids stay online so much, right? Because the place, the platform that I'm on is also the platform that I connect with my best friends. Well, this kind of entanglement happens with a lot of these gambling sites, right? So I get to know people. So I get that kind of positive reinforcement for something else. And that, you know, and I think therein lies what makes it all the more problematic because we know that many social media.

sites, they, you know, their experts are kind of making you lose track of time. So if we were able to kind of combine that with the reinforcement, the intermittent reinforcement of gambling, which we know is what is the most problematic thing, that every time I pull the lever, sometimes I win, sometimes I don't, well, we're programmed to kind of pull that lever longer. Yeah, and unfortunately a lot of the gambling operators will try and make sure that the games are as attractive and, I use the word loosely, but addictive in terms of the nature. The number of ads actually is higher for those targeted women than men. There was a study done and there was basically the sort of average woman could be exposed to 18 and a half.

I didn't know how the half worked, but 18 and a half ads a week, whereas men was about 15.9. So, you know, and a lot of that is daytime because, you know, women are still, even if they're working, they're many times at home looking after the kids and the family. So there's a high level of exposure to the advertising. I actually didn't realize that some were focused around, like, creating a sense of community and feeling like you're part of something, which makes it even more sinister because it locks you in further, right? It's like compounds the addiction, I guess. Well, it compounds. Also, it allows you to do those mental gymnastics of like, oh, I'm just going on to connect rather than to that.

And then also, it means that when I let go, I'm not just letting go of, you know, of the gambling. I'm letting go of these relationships that I'm formed as well, that I've formed as well. And as such, it becomes another barrier to letting go. So, you know, there's a lot of sort of psychological layers to what happens to kind of keep someone doing something that's perhaps not good for them. At a level, like at a sort of surface level, can you explain the difference in the harms and the different behaviours between men and women that you traditionally see the way that they gamble and the harm that it has on them? I would say the critical difference is that women experience stigma a lot more. So the problem is that because I feel different doing this, I feel particularly pathological doing this. And don't forget, we still have women making the vast majority of the buying decisions in the family household.

They're the ones that are responsible for kind of saving the money, for deciding where it goes. They're also the ones that are primarily the sort of the caretakers of the household. That kind of amplifies the harm. So you feel more pathologized or pathological, and that becomes a big barrier to getting help. And I think that is one of the most critical differences. Whereas for men, because we've had this discussion for a long time, you know, again, what did we start off by saying? Yeah, we kind of imagine the guy down at the betting arena doing this.

We don't imagine the woman. Well, we have to. And women themselves have to begin imagining that this is an issue for them and have a sense of entitlement to ask for help. If you don't feel to, you know, you're entitled to say, hey, this is an issue. You feel so pathologized. That is the biggest issue. We've seen in our research that actually women suffer in terms of the harms, particularly around stress and anxiety. So that is one big issue. I mean, you know, the harms themselves are obviously financial, but not just financial. They're

relationship-based. They lead to a sort of a huge concern around sort of how they're going to manage the household, how they're going to manage their lives, etc. So, and as a reason, ironically, whilst they might have engaged with this, with gambling as a means to have a sort of social activity, they become increasingly isolated and they end up doing it on their own and as Linda said, hiding it away and it becomes something that is essentially quite isolationist in its own approach. So whereas, you know, men obviously, as you talked about sports betting, it's sort of start sort of a social platform. Unfortunately, it does still end up being in a place where people are hiding it if it's taken to extremity. But it's, it's for

Women, it's particularly the sort of the health harms around stress and anxiety and mental health, unfortunately. Yeah, and I guess it does feel even doing anything on social media, I guess the fact that they're doing, am I right to sort of assume that women are doing it more online than men are doing it more in real life? Both are doing online. I mean, you know, we've basically got a 24-hour casino in our pockets, haven't we? So, you know, you can go at any stage and you can spend a huge amount of money. So it's both. And in fact, the National Gambling Helpline, it basically is 84% of its calls are from people gambling online. So it's a huge number.

Wow. Can I ask, Zoe, if you could lay out exactly how someone can get help for gambling? And I suppose I'm thinking on one hand on an individual level, but then for potentially someone listening. But then also someone listening who might have someone that they're close to. that they're concerned about and they're gambling. How can they get help? So a number of ways. First of all, I mean, the start of a 10 would be

to obviously have a conversation with somebody. I mean, just even just as Linda was saying, just by talking about it, is a real step in the right direction and to remove that stigma. The second thing is really to go to the BeGamblerware website, have a look through, because that literally lists all the different types of treatment

and support and advice and available. And, you know, lists out for those, you know, reach in their own community because you might want to work with people in your own community. There's also the National Gambling Helpline and we would encourage people to call that and then there are

obviously other treatment services available. The NHS are running a number of specialist clinics. There's Gordon Moody residential treatment but the best way is probably to start by calling the National Gambling Helpline. There's obviously Gamblers Anonymous as well. Isn't there?

Yes, no. Absolutely. Absolutely. And they're listed on the site. There are many there are many. I mean, it's actually there's no shortage of places to go which is why we sort of encourage people to have the conversation in the first place because back to that sort of full circle, people don't realise that they are,

that what they're doing is risky and indeed for some of them they're beginning to experience harm. And what happens, Linda, if you, if for anybody listening, they're concerned about somebody that they love, how is it best for them to approach this person? What can

they say that is going to get to them and genuinely help them. Yeah, I think, I think the first thing to be aware is that you're probably going to be met with some defensiveness. So to expect that. And as such, you need to go into it as in a non-judgmental way as possible. So the idea of like, hey, you know, isn't anything going on. I notice that you're spending a lot of time alone. I notice you're on your phone a lot. Or to kind of open up the conversation and say, listen, you know, I think we're all struggling with different things at the moment. I just want you to know, no judgment. but there's a solution to every problem.

So kind of to be solution-focused rather than problem-focused. I think many times what makes people defensive is kind of this idea of like, I think this is the issue. Instead saying, hey, you know what, there may be an issue, there may not. I'm here to help, you know, no judgment. And if I don't know what to do, I'll work with you to figure it out. I think also sometimes what we call in psychology is a broken record technique. I may push you away once.

I may push you away twice. Keep coming back. You know, I'm noticing this. I'm here. and I think eventually this idea that I see something that maybe you don't want to acknowledge and I'm not going to stop saying it might lead to that opening. Yeah. So it's not being scared of the rejection because I think a lot of people would be disheartened if they went to a loved one and tried to help them and then they just got the rebuttal.

I think you have to expect the rejection. I think you're probably going to get that. You're going to get a rationalization. And I think it's about, we often say this with couples therapy. I think sometimes it's about moving the problem between us and putting it in front of us and saying we're going to look at this together, right? So, you know, I'm beside you. That's great. That's a really nice way of looking at it actually, yeah. It's the thing with gambling as well is we call it a hidden addiction.

Because, you know, if people drink too much or they take drugs, you know, there's an ingestion and you can start to see the sort of the physical effect of it as much as the mental effect. Whereas this is something which you have no, there's no discerning way to tell beyond exactly, as Linda said, people spending too much time, hiding it and spending too much money. so it's somehow getting through that and that's why it's really hard for those that I touched on earlier called affected others because they have no idea often

until it's way too late I met a lady the other week who I couldn't believe it the first time she knew that her husband was somebody experiencing a huge amount of gambling harm was when the doorbell went and the police were arriving to arrest him and it was like because she had not a clue until then that's how hidden it can get

if somebody's listening and they're like I'm not sure if I've got a problem I'm not sure if this counts. Where is the point where you as a charity or as a human who knows a lot about gambling either of you would be like, no, come in here now? And I know you say like it's causing harm, but I mean sort of like... How you define the harm. Yeah, how you define the harm. Well, from my perspective, it goes back to if you notice you're spending too much time, you're spending too much money and you're beginning to hide it.

But I think the real thing is that level of anxiety that you will start to feel, you know, And there's, you know, a lot of people can turn to this more for men, but also for women around chasing losses and going, going back and back. And it's interesting, I think you're talking to Joe earlier. It was sort of, you know, when she was sort of told that, you know, girls don't gamble. And it's sort of, that's ridiculous. That goes back to the stigma thing. So, yeah, it's basically about that sort of how you feel and the anxiety and the stress and that you feel within yourself. Yeah, I'm sure that's.

I think that's what when we look at. And look, there's kind of the extreme. which is the addiction but on the way to that you have the harms and and it begins when you feel that it controls you more than you control it right so it goes from being something that you enjoy to this almost this compulsion that you have to do and this chasing of it um and also if it gets in the way of normal daily activities i think that would be the thing with any sort of thing that's kind of beginning to control you so i have to pause my day i'm late to pick up my kids or you know i've i've lost track of time and you know i've you know i've you know i've you know i've you know

I'm missing sort of the bus for my job or whatever it is, you know, that those have to be red flags, not yellow flags, red flags, and look like anything in this area because lots of things can cause harm and compulsion, right? And gambling is, you know, a really sort of important one to speak about because we haven't really spoken about it as women before. The sooner you catch it, the sooner you identify it as an issue and seek help. We know, psychologically speaking, the easier it is to get the help. So don't allow it to escalate. even if you're kind of on the fence of like, is it a problem, isn't it? You know, gamble aware, amazing resources.

Like, it's genuinely, go on the website, take a look, take the test, see where you're at. And then, you know, even if it is having a one or two discussions with someone, nip it in the bud. Yeah. Can I ask again a bit of script, but physiologically, what is happening in the brain when someone gambles? And what, I don't know if this is the right terminology, but causes the addiction or what fuels the addiction? or what exactly is going on in the brain? Because I think it's important to understand for someone listening who is experiencing this,

like why it's happening. I think it's really helpful to understand what's happening in the body as well. Sure. So we have several sort of neurotransmitters that make us feel good. Now, the one that's really critical here is dopamine. Now, dopamine is sort of a happy hormone

gives us that spike. But critically, dopamine is also involved in habit formation, right? Dopamine is actually one of those neurotransmitters that allows us to learn. So if I'm throwing a ball in a, a hoop every time I get closer throwing that ball, I get that spike. Well, the issue is because that spike is also involved in habit formation, every memory I have of that spike is that this

is really good. So if you speak to a gambler, they're going to name off every time they won like this big number. They're not going to name off every time they lost. That's, that doesn't come in to, because what our brain is allowing us to do, and this is kind of allowed us to evolve our ability to get good at things, is to remember the stuff that gives us this high. And that's the problem. So what's happening is you're associating this behavior with the spike. And actually, the more you chase it, the more you need to kind of get that spike. We've seen like a lot in the news about gambling. And a lot of people are calling for reform to the laws around gambling. And we were wondering what Gambler-Ware's view of that is. Do you think the law needs to change? And if so, how?

So we are all within this sector waiting on a white paper and this white paper that government was going to be in issues is now being delayed four times and with the new government and with what's going on we're sort of all sitting there thinking how long can this take before it's finally published and the reason we're all yearning for this paper to be published is that it's going to have much more stringent regulation

I say stringent because nobody knows quite what's in it but we're hoping for much stronger regulation that's going to take place around the way that operators can sort of encourage people to gamble. So, for example, there's the VIP clubs, the free bets. I don't know what's in the white paper, but these are the sort of territories that could be explored. Affordability checks, you know, can somebody really afford to make this bet? Now, managing that is obviously a bit of a challenge because you don't want to be infringing into people's personal lives, but, you know, providing some sort of framework.

and making sure that there's a little bit more, well, that we're also calling for a little bit more control, particularly around advertising specifically towards young people and making sure that sports sponsorship is managed in a way. So there's a whole array around regulation that we hope will come forward in this white paper and make sure that the industry is sort of behaving in accordance with what is essentially the gambling act was done before the digital age.

since 2005 and things have come in leaps and bound since then. So it's critical that the new legislation reflects the environment that we're all gambling in, which is essentially online. Yeah, it's interesting. And the work that we do, like Al and I talk a lot about regulations on Instagram, particularly, for like diet ads or weight loss ads, surgery ads, that sort of thing. But it's crazy that there isn't that legislation particularly to stop. And I guess I haven't seen it because it's not in my algorithm.

But the way that the algorithm works is if you, You see one thing, it just keeps feeding it to you, and there's just no. And you mention young people, and I don't know if you can comment on this, but do you find that with social media, it's easier for much younger people to bypass? Well, I mean, in theory, of course, you know, you can't gamble until you're 18 years old. But we did some research a couple of years ago, which basically showed that actually there were 41,000 children who were sort of Twitter followers of gambling operators, etc. and that 96% of, I think it was 11 to 24-year-olds

had seen some marketing activity from gambling operators. So we know that obviously there's exposure out there and it's how we can constrain and limit that exposure. So that research actually led to some regulation around actually just being launched actually this month, October, which is that operators can't use celebrities that appeal to children in their advertising. Now that's a big step because of course they're so used to seeing

their football hero featuring in an ad promoting gambling. And even if it's run after the watershed of 9pm, the reality is that they can see that. And the bit that we'd like the next step to be is the fact that actually they should be banning then being able to wear the gambling operator's logo on the football pitch. That's something we have to wait for for the moment

and wait for this white paper. So yeah, a whole suite of sort of new, slightly more tighter rules around regulation. As we're talking about this, I'm just thinking you'll have had this too. We're thinking of all the, as influencers, of all the campaigns that are offered to us for gambling. Yeah, so many. And huge amounts of money as well. Obviously, we turn them down instantly.

Good for you. Of course, they never explored, but there are a lot. Absolutely. We do some campaigns. We're doing one actually for the World Cup. And actually, it's incredibly difficult to try and find a football celebrity who is not working with a gambling officer. I mean, there are a few out there, but my God. sad. It is, you know, and we're quite stringent. They can't be working with a gambling

operator for the last year, et cetera, because it's so critically important to have that sort of clear water and distance. And it's surprising, right? Because we, we understand now the human psyche and how it can be hacked in a way that we didn't. You know, with the online world, we've got all this other information. And I think this is the problem, the same way, to your point about the whole, you know, body image and girls thing and how it affects us, our technological advancements and evolution is outpacing our social advancement evolution, but we need to step it up. And I think, you know, this kind of, it just, the wheels of the bureaucracy turn a lot slower. So, you know, even though now we know it, we know we're hackable,

we really do, right? Which is why, and again, maybe this is coming slightly outside of this conversation, but, you know, you look at how different countries regulate things like TikTok, right? So you look at places like China, and I'm not holding China up as a beacon in some ways, but in some ways, You know, they're on it. They're much more. If you're on a website, they know how old you are in a way that we don't. You can get on porn sites, on gambling sites, on any kind of site regardless. But also, they switch things off and on depending on your age.

We're still now, like you're saying, you're having trouble even kind of finding, you know, someone who's not, you know, willing to advertise with them. So we are kind of, you know, pretending that we don't see what there's a lot of evidence of these days. Yeah. Our culture is actually gross. Yeah. So much. Just to finish us off, I wonder if there's one thing from each of you that you would say to anybody that was listening that was struggling or that maybe didn't realize it before they listened to this or has kind of known for a while.

If there was just one thing you'd say to them to let them feel. I guess on an emotional level, because we've outlined the practical side of which is brilliant, but on a really, like, an emotional level. For me, I use the word empowerment. I really want to empower women to have the conversation. and not, back to Linda's point, not feel stigmatized about it, not feel ashamed, but just to be able to recognize, and actually to recognize, to have greater awareness of what they're doing, but also greater awareness of that there is help. There is people out there to support them,

whether it happens to be family or the experts. Just talk about it. Yeah, no, and just to echo that, you know, I think we speak a lot about, you know, this idea of entitlement right? And I think any of the social changes we've seen, we've seen it with that entitlement. You know, I'm allowed to, you know, to live in the body that I was warned. I'm allowed to kind of celebrate these imperfections. And actually, we're all imperfect. You know, that's fine. It doesn't make you a bad person. It doesn't make you less than that. And actually, there is no power without

responsibility. So, you know, that idea of taking responsibility to kind of say, this is an issue. There are people out there to help and feeling entitled to that and not feeling this sense of, of, you know, I shouldn't, I couldn't, because the issue with gambling is the solution becomes part of the problem. What is the solution? I'll hide. The more I hide, the more problematic it becomes. So to slash that through, I need to feel empowered and titled to take care of myself. We're going to leave all of Gamblerware's information in the show notes. But before we let these two go, we would just really like Zoe to share with us the National Gamble Aware helpline. Yeah, it's actually the National Gambling Helpline.

And it's on 0808-80-80-10-133. And it's available 24-7 and it's free and clearly all the advice given is entirely confidential. Thank you so much. Brilliant. Thank you. Now we are joined by Joe Mustafa and Lisa Walker who are both going to share with us their personal experiences with gambling and gambling addiction.

We've already heard from Zoe, who is the CEO, of gamble aware. And we've heard from Linda, who is a psychologist. So now we would like to get an oversight of a more like lived experience of gambling and the impact that it really has on an individual. So Joe, I was wondering if you could kick us off by telling us how you started getting into gambling, how this all came about for you. Yeah, of course. For me, it was about seven years ago. I randomly just put a bet on the football. I've never gambled before. but my stepdad he was putting a bet on because he likes watching the football and so I thought yeah I'll do that as well just have a little go

and this bet won so that made me think oh well I'm quite good at that you know it made me feel good and so I had a bit of money to play with so I had a look around the website and found the slots and it was the slots that really you know it took you know it took me in I started winning and then I started losing a hell of a lot

and I couldn't accept the fact that I was losing so I was constantly chasing that money back and getting myself into so much debt so depressed and

well yeah just went down downhill from there spiraled out of control and yeah when you imagine the slots I imagine them to be physical slot machines, not slots online, but it's just websites, right, that you found it.

And it was so easy to do. You just press the button and away you go, you know? And I would spend literally days, nights, literally, I wouldn't sleep. Sometimes I'd call in sick for work. I didn't want to see any of my friends. I didn't want to talk to anyone. I was in this kind of zone of gambling. How long was that going on for?

It was going on for about three years. Yeah, so quite a while got myself into quite a bit of debt, so, which is, you know. Yeah, Lisa, is your story kind of similar to that? So my story, I was introduced to gambling at eight years old. My dad and my granddad used to play cards, and it wasn't until my property teens that I realised that my dad had a problem with gambling. When I was 18, I was taken to my first casino on my 18th birthday, just me and my dad. and I remember walking into the casino and just seeing all the flashing lights

and the roulette tables and the poker tables and I put 50p on number 27 on the roulette and it came in and I won 18 pounds and I thought like well you know like 30 seconds later I've won 18 quid

in my sort of 20s I would say that I never crossed the line of addiction to gambling it was always under control I had my two children when I was 23 and 24. Unfortunately, my daughter Georgia was starved of oxygen at birth, which resulted in me giving up my career to become Georgia's full-time carer. So when I did go to the casino, it was like an escape from me,

from what was going on in my own personal life. And it was when I was 29, I went to the casino with my sister and four other people. and there was a progressive jackpot on the poker which was linked up to all the casinos around the country and that night I won £127,000 off a pound and that was the night that changed my life forever so the casino sort of like it was Chinese New Year

it was meant to up the casino I had people coming up to me and touching me because they thought I was this lucky sort of spirit and the casino just basically sat me down and said, look, you've $127,000. What do you do? I said, I'm a full-time carer. They was like, oh my God, this is fantastic. This is going to make great news, you know, winning all this money.

They enticed me back. No one ever sat me down and said, you've won life-changing money. My mortgage was $65,000. And I didn't pay my mortgage off. And for the next 16 years until I was 45. I gambled every day to the, it's very sad to say, but I ended up homeless on the streets with my children through my gambling and lost about half a million pound over that time.

So it's, you know, it's sad. And as a woman, it's, you know, even sad because I didn't have anyone to talk to. That's the really, like, strikes me like the cruel nature of gambling. On one hand, it can give you this huge high, probably high, that you've never experienced before. And then on the other side of it is this, like, devastating, like debilitating impact of all the loss. I think, you know, like, what I do want to say is that I'm not addicted to anything else.

I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't take drugs. It was the gambling. And obviously that day, when I won that 120s, I should imagine it was like someone doing a line of cocaine, someone getting drunk, the high, the buzz that it left me on, I've got all this money now, but the reality of it was that the gambling just led me into a complete despair in my life, you know, where every day I needed to gamble and I just couldn't ever see a way out of it, you know. I'm so sorry for you. That's like, that's been horrible.

when you that night you won that money what was your home situation you had your two kids and you were caring for your daughter yeah so I had

yeah I had my two children I owned my own house and I was in a relationship I gave my sister 20,000 pounds and we went to America me and the kids I then found Vegas

you know compulsive gambling The gambler's dream, you know, going to Vegas. And it was when I was 35 that I ended up homeless and losing everything through gambling. And when I went up to the council and said, you know, this is, you know, I'm homeless. And they said, why? And I said, because I'm addicted to gambling. And she said, we wish you'd have been a drug addict or an alcoholic because what do we do with a compulsive gambler?

And that day, and that was 15, like I'm 50 now, but that day, it was the worst day of my life because I just felt so ashamed. And as a woman with a gambling addiction, why doesn't anyone understand me? Why isn't there any help for me? If I was a drug addict or an alcoholic, people would signpost me somewhere and I could go into rehab. But why isn't anyone coming out and saying, Lisa, this is what you could do? So I've carried a lot of guilt and shame around with me for a long time. But since being in recovery, I know now that I was ill and I needed to get that help and that's what I did.

Jo, was there a sort of rock bottom point for you where you realise like this has gone too far and I really need to get some help and I actually cannot carry on like this? Yeah, I think I kind of, I saw the person who I turned into and I didn't like it because that wasn't me I was a liar you know I'd sneak around and I didn't want to know anybody

I did sink into a very dark place you know depression and I didn't well I didn't want to be alive anymore and I think you know I had two options you know and one of them was reaching out for help and yeah so that's what I had to do

I knew I had to because otherwise it was not going to be a nice, you know, outcome. What was your home life like at that time? Were you living alone or were you with your family? I had moved back home because I had a house previously but I had to sell that so I was living back at home again. So, yeah, there was no like particular stress or anything like that for me at the time. It was just, I don't know.

I just put this one bet on, and it went from there, really. And in the end, it was more about, like, at first I thought it was the money side of things. I was doing it for money, but it wasn't actually for money. I liked the fact that I was, when I was gambling, I was in this place of my own, that, you know, nobody, I was protected from any thoughts or feelings that, you know, I couldn't deal with happiness. I couldn't deal with being depressed. I couldn't deal with being sad. So while I was gambling, I didn't have any of that apart from a good feeling if I was winning, you know?

Yeah. So I think once I'd stopped, like if I'd run out of money, that would be the only point that I would stop gambling is when I literally had nothing left. Then obviously I would start getting all those feelings or hit me at once, you know, and then that would trigger me to want to gamble again. So, yeah.

A horrible, vicious cycle. Yeah, yeah. really was. I mean, the stress and the anxiety and, you know, depression, in the end, it caused my hair to start falling out. Did it? Yeah, yeah. And the doctor said it was due to the stress, the alopecia. So, yeah, and then I had to shave my hair. And then, which made me want to gamble even more because I got even more depressed because, you know, I thought that was the worst thing that could happen to me, losing my hair, you know. How was, for both of you, how was your, did you have a good support system?

Or like, how did the people around you react to what was going on if they knew at all? So for me, my gambling was mostly done in secret. I would go off, drive off to casinos on my own, bookmakers, dog tracks, horse racing, wherever. It was only when I ended up homeless that the question started to be asked. you know, what the hell is going on. And I did reach out. I went to Gamblers Anonymous. But unfortunately, I wasn't rock bottom then.

Even though I was homeless, I still wasn't rock bottom. And I still hadn't had enough of gambling. So I continued to gamble. I got placed in a hostel with my two children. And because of my daughter, I ended up, they put me in a flat, which was purposely built for my daughter. And, you know, and I used to gamble while they were at school, you know, weekends if my ex-husband had the kids. Just like Joe said, you know, it was almost like I was in a bubble and no one could get to me.

And I could go into this casino and just not think about any of my problems and just, you know, everything that was going on around me. You know, I was losing track of time. You know, I wasn't present. When people were talking to me, look like today, you know, I'm engaging, it wasn't like that. I couldn't care. All I wanted to do was gamble. And that's the thing. As a woman, you know, you go to casinos, you go to bookmakers, you go to dog races, horse racing meetings, and 90% of it is men.

And I was a woman walking in with all these men. And, you know, and I used to think, like, where's all the women, you know, why am I the, and also, and it. gamblers anonymous it was all men it was all men and you know and i didn't listen i didn't listen in my 30s to any advice i was given um thought i knew it all but i didn't know nothing um but obviously we'll talk about we'll go on to that you know um but it said it is said you know what about you joes are people around you um well mine was the same as lisa like i would gamble by myself i never used to go to you know the casinos or anything like that mine was online so I would go off into a separate room by myself and I didn't want to be disturbed like

somebody text me or rang me while I was gambling I would actually be really annoyed like you know and I would ignore everyone but I think I realized I got to a point where like I'd run out of money and then I'd have this awful sick feeling and I'd say to my mum and I'd say to my mum Can you just like take my laptop away from me, just, you know, to stop me? But then I'd always say to a, oh, I'm just going to have one more go, you know. But, you know, I was quite lucky in the sense that my family once I told them everything. They're very supportive, you know. So, yeah.

It's really interesting listening, the difference, how you have such similar experiences, but the way that your addictions, like, manifested themselves were so different in that you were physically there and you were doing it more online. Do you feel, and I don't know, and I don't know if you guys can comment on this, but do you feel like you were saying, at least that it's a lot more men in the casinos, in the bookies, and at the races, do you feel like more women traditionally gamble online, maybe,

or would you not comment to that? I don't know. I think now, I mean, I never found online gambling, thank goodness, because I got into so much trouble anyway. But for me, the work I do now, we are seeing more and more women coming in saying that they're gambling online. I think the pandemic with the COVID had a lot to play with it. You know, women at home, you know, a lot of, you know, with the children, you know, a lot of stress, worry, anxiety. of an evening

the women are getting on online, playing online slots bingo especially with the advertising the adverts that are coming on every day it's in your face you know sign up sign up you know

listen to the radio it's on every sports channel you know free bets free this free that and the women we're seeing are gambling

and it is most of the time it's for an escape they're trying to escape what is going on you know, in their lives, with their relationships, you know, something might have happened with their children, you know, some, the health, anything, but it just seems like it's growing and growing and online, you know, we've all got mobile phones, we've all got 24-hour casinos

on our mobile phones, which is the sad thing. I mean, before, I didn't even know, like, gambling could be a problem. Like, I didn't. I didn't know you could be addicted to gambling. I really didn't. And I think perhaps maybe if I'd have known that, you know, known some of the warning signs or whatever, then I could have been a bit more aware, I think.

And that's why, you know, doing this campaign is like brilliant to raise the awareness, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, well, we've learnt so much even just from having these conversations because like you say, you just, our vision, or my vision particularly, was always of men gambling and of men down the football. men down the races. So we talked before to the others about how

this culture is crazy for just like promoting these behaviours that are addictions and then they're really unhealthy and no other country does it like we do it with drinking and gambling and it's so commonplace that you take your kids to the pub you take your kids to the races and it's just like

I feel like other nations would look at us and be like don't do that. What is you doing? Leave them at home. Definitely. So we know that stigma can be something that impacts women in particular. Was there something that you experienced? So no one ever confronted me about my money problems while I was gambling.

Problem gambling is a very easily hidden habit unlike drink or drugs. Obviously with both of them you have signs to look out for. I definitely experienced stigma around my gambling which meant I felt scared and embarrassed to reach out. I just wish that, I just wish, wish that I could have reached out and I wish I would have been signposted, you know, if someone could have said to me, like Lisa, this is where you can go for, you know, to get help

because all I ever knew about was Gamblers Anonymous and which we'll talk about in a minute because it was Gamblers Anonymous that saved me without a shadow of a doubt. But other than that, and I'm going back, you know, 15, 20 years ago, where a woman gambling was like, What, you know, what the hell? It is men, you know. And that's why I felt so, I don't know, just so alone, you know. Is that how you felt, Joe? Yeah, I felt totally alone.

I didn't know who I could turn to, who I could tell, you know. I didn't know where to get support in my mind. If I thought about getting help, all I could picture was, you know, these plastic chairs in a hall with blokes in a circle chatting, you know. And that really put me off. I was just like, you know, I made me feel uncomfortable. But, yeah, I did definitely experience the same. Lisa, you said the first time you went to Gamblers Anonymous, it wasn't, you hadn't hit rock bottom.

And then, but you then said they saved your life. So you did go back to them. Yeah. Can I ask, I think for a lot of people who don't understand addiction or who aren't aware of addiction, listening to you saying you've lost your house and your homeless with your two kids people would think that's rock bottom but it doesn't work like that

and from the outside somebody can look at your situation and say well that's probably as bad as it's going to get but unless you're there you have to be ready and that's something that is across the board for anyone who's seeking help for addiction and going to these anonymous groups

so what was it if you don't mind saying that took you Yeah. So what happened was I got married in Vegas. My third wedding. My two failed marriages before was because of my gambling. So 45 years old, five years ago I got married in Vegas. I flew 15 of us out there to Vegas. My son gave me away on my wedding day. And we spent the evening in a casino where the drink was flowing. I don't drink. So I knew every. was going to get drunk and which I was quite pleased about because I knew that I could go back to my hotel and gamble. So I got in a cab in my wedding dress and went off for the whole night on my own, didn't go to my wedding party. And I got a payday loan out in England wired to my bank account in America and I gamble till 6am in the morning. When I finally got into bed at 6am when my husband woke up he said what time did you get in and I said two

and straight away I'm married and I'm starting my marriage on a lie. Got back from Vegas and my rock bottom was the first of April 2018 so I borrowed I asked my son if I could borrow £2,000 to pay off this payday loan and my son is a carpet fitter and he works really hard for his money and he lent it to me. He put it in my bank and I was at Tesco's at the time and it hit my bank account and I knew that the bookies was a minute away and within 35 minutes I'd spent the £2,000 on the fobty machines which are the fixed odds betting terminals and they were £100 to spin at the time and I remember losing that £2,000 and walking back to my car and just thinking like Lisa you need help you you you know this is it now I think the

next thing's deaf because I felt so not because I felt suicidal but my body couldn't take it physically my heart felt like it was going to pound out my chest you know I wasn't looking after myself you know now I've borrowed this money off my son you know what am I doing so yeah so I reached out to Gamblers Anonymous again. I was told, get back in the rooms. And I went back. And what was different this time was I listened, started to listen. I dropped this big ego personality that I've got.

I gave everything to Gamblers Anonymous. I told everybody I know, friends, family, got them all around, told them everything. People cried that knew me for years, that didn't realize what I was going through. my mum and my husband went to Gammonon which is the biggest room in Essex for families with addiction because they wanted to learn more about it I handed over my finances

I've done everything that was told to do and that's when my recovery started taking off yeah thank God Joe was it the same you said you would give when you knew things were getting bad you'd give your mum your laptop but then you'd say to it actually I need to have another go, so was she aware, whether you were parents aware of what you were doing as you were living with them?

I think, well, they knew that I was gambling, but I don't think they actually realized that it had actually become quite a big problem. Because obviously I'd play it down because I wanted that laptop bag, so I wanted to gamble. But I think I did tell them in the end because I had no way out. And I think I literally explored every avenue that I could to get more money, you know. And I was constantly lying and I was just a horrible person. I didn't like myself whatsoever. So I started to look online because I was so desperate because, you know, I didn't want to be alive anymore. I had no way out.

I didn't know how this was ever going to resolve. Like I could not imagine getting up in the light of a day. just not gamble. It was, you know, I couldn't imagine my life without it, to be honest. So I did some research online and I came across Gordon Moody and I went on their program which was for women and it was just a retreat. It wasn't like residential as such.

And so they put me on the path to recovery. But then obviously I got alopecia and my hair fell out and I had to shave. it off so that made me you know I had a major relapse and I was back where I was you know from the beginning getting myself in more debt you know but I reached back out to them and they had me back on the program and yeah and then I'm here now really I'm going strong and yeah hoping to help other people other ladies you definitely will be by sharing it and we say there's so much but shame can't exist in the light so like just even by having this conversation it's so powerful show that other women

that they're not on their own i i bet lisa like telling your i was thinking as you're saying it you telling everyone telling everyone about it must have been a really good positive step because yeah you take your shame out of the shadows and you and it and also you add a level of accountability, I guess, to your recovery? Yeah, 100%. Do you consider yourselves as recovered or do you think of yourselves as in recovery? Is it a continuous battle whereby you have to continue to fight against addiction and or do you feel like you're in a place where it just, it kind of no longer exists for you? So for me, I'm in recovery. I've got to be in recovery for the rest of my life.

Okay. I have to attend GA every Monday afternoon because I am a compulsive gambler. Although I haven't had a bet for four and a half years, it's a one-day-time program and, you know, something could trigger me where I, you know, but with the right tools and the right people around me now and the work that I'm doing, it does keep me off a because I know where to reach out now for help when I'm struggling. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I totally would agree with that.

I'm in recovery and I will be for, well, forever really. I mean, I think now I'm more aware of my triggers and how I've got better ways of coping with things rather than, you know, turn to gambling. Yeah. And I think, you know, that awareness is very important. When you stopped gambling, because I imagine that gambling was a great way to avoid any feelings and emotions, and it's just a great, you know, for most people that have addictions, it's a form of escapism and a way to take you out of your own head. You don't have to deal with uncomfortable feelings and painful feelings. When you stopped gambling, was it difficult then to have to face all of these feelings and have nowhere really to escape from them? So for me, well, for a lot of people, it's called filling the void.

So when you give up gambling, I suppose, or any addiction, you know, it is all about filling that void and making sure that, you know, when you're gambling, you're took into this different, it's not a real world you're in, it's a completely in this escape from reality. And then all of a sudden, you're not, I gambled for 16 years every day, for 20, up to 29 till 49 till 45 so all of a sudden i'm now being told lisa you can't ever gamble again and i'm like what the hell am i going to do you know what all i've done is gamble i don't i've never had a proper job because i'm a full-time care i am a full-time carer and that is a proper job by the way but i always thought that i you know i wasn't educated so i began and people that

know me i began walking which i never used to do um i bought a dog and I take him out every day. My life, you know, I started eating healthier. I started listening to podcasts. You know, walking around the house doing me over and listening to a podcast. Just anything, I could do anything I wanted to do, but just not gamble. That was the thing, you know. And that is what, you know, I say to people now that come into my groups,

filling that void is the hardest thing to do. But once you do it, it just becomes a little bit easier every day that has gone, as life got, you know, every day gets a bit easier. My problem was I would never accept any feeling or emotion like I would just pretend I'm okay all the time. I'd always be smiling and even if I'm sad, I'm smiling, you know. So I think for me was talking to people and, you know, letting it out because there's only so much you can hold in, isn't there? And so once I realize that it's okay to feel sad, it's okay to, you know, be happy. It's perfectly fine to have a day of, for myself, you know, that's fine.

I think that was, that really, you know, helped me. And then I started, you know, looking for different hobbies, you know, just like cross stitch I did for a little while, just to keep me, you know, active in my brain, you know, and then going for walks. I mean I've got a dog and I love her so much so I take her out and I see my family more. I spend a lot more time with them and just doing things that, you know, nice. You don't have to spend money. It's just go out in the garden and just take five minutes and be present. Did you put any physical blocks on yourself?

Because I imagine gambling online is a difficult thing in that maybe you have more time if you're going to a casino or driving somewhere to be like, no, I'm going to. stop myself but if it's online you know it's so quick did you implement anything to stop you from accessing the sites or have you just gone like will power up to like a million um no i had to what i did was i handed all my finances over to my mum and that thing that was everything my bank card i couldn't log online to it um i gave up my mobile phone my laptop um i just bought a phone that had no internet on it. So it was difficult, you know,

because, you know, everyone's used to have in their phone. You can just go online. But this was something that I really had to do because, you know, as horrible as it was, it was definitely worth it, you know? And I, you know, I joined up to GAM stop. And I had GAMBAN, but GAMBAN didn't work for me personally.

That's why I had to get rid of my phone. But, yeah, it was tough. but so worth it in the end. Yeah. And I think my, because I didn't gamble online and I gambled in casinos, it was actually the casino manager

who I'm friends with now said to me, you've got a gambling problem. He sat me down and he said, I want you to self-exclude from the casino. So I self-excluded from the casinos all around where I lived and I also self-excluded myself

from the bingo halls, the bookmakers. It's called Moses. M-O-S-E-S it's a self-exclusion scheme for anybody if any women are struggling out there you know going into these places you can and Gam Stop and Gambana apps that you can download on your mobile phones which blocks websites for you accessing websites and there's quite a lot now that you know you can do to try and you know help help people Lisa now you've have you've actually set up your own support group and it's a women only group can you tell us about it and why you came to set this up and how it's going so yeah so i

said it up because when i walked into ga there was 35 men and me one one other woman and i just thought to myself where are all the women um you know there's got to be women out there so i was lucky enough during covid to get a break um i done a podcast and a women's podcast about gambling and um one of the ladies on there just phoned me up and said would you like to become a peer support worker? We will train you up so I train to become a peer support worker with Bet No More

and then 18 months ago I went to my boss and said look I've got an idea about setting up a group called New Beginnings. I said I want it to be a women's only group I said I want it to be 10 weeks structured programme where women from all over England

and Ireland can join on Zoom and feel like that they can be in a safe space. We have topics every week we talk about. So I had my first cohort in April, first two cohorts in April, which was a daytime and a nighttime group. I'm now on my third and fourth cohort and I've got women in and I've also got a waiting list now for January. People are waiting to come in. But what I did realise very, very quickly in April was the women said to me on the first cohort what are we going to do after the 10 weeks

you know what are we going to do Lisa we don't want to go so I went back to my boss and said I need some more money can you get some more money for the like you know through the charity because I need to run more support groups so now we offer alongside new beginnings health and wellbeing groups for women 50 weeks of the year so women that come through new beginnings

every week they can log on and come on to the health and well-being groups and just chat and just speak you know talk about it doesn't have to always be about gambling it can be about something that's on their mind you know but it's just a safe space for women to come and talk to and I just think any woman that's out there listening to this who thinks that they may have got a problem with gambling or a partner thinks they may have don't suffer in silence don't suffer you know reach out get the help you need listen i ended up losing everything and i've turned my life around now you know i i'm not rich i don't live in a big ass but i'm the happiest i've ever been there because i'm not gambling

and i'm i'm you know and i'm helping people and i love it that's amazing and joe what was you say to anyone who might be in a similar position to where you were i would say don't suffer in silence there's plenty of support out there you can have a look on be good gambleaware.org where you can get like free confidential advice and you know um but you're not on your own you know we're living proof that you know you can get the help you need and live a happy happy life you don't need gambling to make you make you happy anyone concerned about their gambling or that of a help or of a loved one should contact the national gambling helpline for free confidential support, which is available on 0808, 802013, 24 hours a day, seven days a week,

or visit Begamblerware.org for free confidential advice and support. Wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing your stories with us. And it's incredible to hear what you've been through and see where you are now. And just, yeah, we wish you like all the best in your continued journeys. And thank you so much for sharing with us. Should I delete that is part of the ACAS creator network.