Should I Delete That? - “You’re not even allowed to think for yourself” - surviving a ‘cult’… with Rachael Reign

Episode Date: November 3, 2025

Rachael Reign was 13 years old when she joined what she thought was a youth group… the next eight years of her life were dedicated to an organisation that she describes as a 'cult'. We spoke to Rachael about her experience in the UCKG - a church with over 30 locations in the UK that has been accused by Rachael and other ex-members of dangerous, cult-like behaviour. The UCKG states that they are not a cult - and it is a registered charity in the UK. Rachael told us about her years within the church - the effect it has had on her life, the fear she felt around leaving and why she has created the UK’s only black-led specialist support group for fellow survivors. Follow @msrachaelreign on InstagramFollow @survivinguniversaluk on Instagram If you want to get in touch you can email us on [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram:@shouldideletethat@em_clarkson@alexlight_ldnShould I Delete That is produced by Faye LawrenceStudio Manager: Elliott MckayVideo Editor: Celia GomezSocial Media Manager: Sarah EnglishMusic: Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

If it was so bad, why didn't you just leave? You don't leave because you are literally being psychologically tortured. You know, it's coercion. I wouldn't leave. That's terrifying. Hello, and welcome back to Should I Delete That? We have a fascinating episode for you today. We spoke to Rachel Raine, who spent eight years as part of the UCKG, the Universal Church of the Kingdom of God.

The UCKG describes itself as an evangelical church, which has over 30 brandy in the UK, but it has been accused by Rachel and other ex-members of dangerous cult-like behaviour. The UCKG strongly denies claims that it is a cult and it is a registered charity in the UK. We spoke to Rachel about her years within the church, why she believes it's a cult, and how she eventually made the decision to leave. We had a million questions for Rachel. We could have kept her for hours longer than we did. it was absolutely fascinating what a conversation and what a woman absolutely brilliant here's rachel

hope you enjoyed the episode hi rachel oh god we have so much to talk about i feel like i'd like i'd talk really fast so that i don't waste any time and get straight into it thank you so much for joining my i'm sorry it feels like you're on times too i feel like i've put the podcast all right so don't really fast you know me i love a love a times two moment um okay so i don't know how i came across you're Instagram account. I can't remember how I came across it. But when I did, I was hooked and fascinated by what you talk about, about your experience. Can you tell your story? Is that okay? You tell us your story? Absolutely. So when I was first seen, I was born and bred in West Croydon. I was on

my way into the town centre and then I got invited to come in and, you know, get involved in this youth group. The young person said, hey, we're doing singing, acting, dancing, coming up. It's just up here. And because the building was so inconspicuous, I had no idea it was a church or anything like that. Like, it was something that was part of my every day. I literally walked by how many times a day had no idea it was a church or there was any kind of life back there. So it was weird. So when I first went in, sure enough, it was a church. And that was really weird to me because it's like, I lived it all my life. I had no idea a church existed. But yeah, it was a youth group. So they were singing, dancing. There was other kids there. And it seemed great.

especially since it was so local, it was like, okay, so I didn't know this was a thing, but yeah, I can get used to this. I can come. So I went back. And that's kind of how they get you in my experiences. And we're all quotes pretty much. At first, it's very natural. You know, it's very, oh, you know, we're here. We do these amazing things. You should come next time and they kind of rope you in to coming back. And from that Sunday, I was invited to go to a Thursday. and from that Thursday I was invited to go to a Monday and from Monday it was Friday and then Saturday and then Sunday and before you knew it every single day I was in the church after school

every day. Sorry, two questions. Sure. Had you had any church in your life prior to that? And what did your parents or guardians think of your situation? So if he was to ask me, I would have said I was a Christian. Right. I never went church every single Sunday.

Like maybe with my grandma now and again. But it wasn't like a devout thing where, you know, I went to any other church. And when my mom found out I was going, because I grew up in a, you know, difficult area, it was like, well, okay, great. You know, she's going church. It's a youth group. It's right around the corner. I know where she is.

Brilliant. At least she's not, you know, out on the streets. I know where she is. Wonderful. And that's the really insidious thing because looking back, it wasn't just me that was groomed. It was my family that was groomed into thinking that I was attending. somewhere safe and secure and good, when we know now it really wasn't. So yeah, that's the nature of culture.

You know, they put their best foot forward. You know, it seems like the most rational, amazing place in the world at first, but then things started to change. So when did things start to change? How long had you been in the church? Well, I was in the church between 13 and 21, and the changes happened so kind of subtly, so subtly, but at the same time, so rapid.

within a few months I was like every day in the church and I completely changed dramatically in terms of me becoming like this hyper-conservative young person you know I stopped wearing the clothes I used to wear you know just like a typical teenager in school you know the little skirt the crown jeans back in the days do you remember the crown jeans the black jeans with the crown on the back you guys don't remember it was a bit maybe it was a South London thing

you remember though so my mum would they on the bum yeah my mum didn't let me it was like a rule nothing on the bar. I had juicy on my bar. That's exactly. I think that was what stirred it for her. She was like, you're not having juicy right down your ass.

I was like, back then it was like so normal, right? But I stopped aware of them and I just became super, super conservative, you know, in church every day. One of the most kind of subtle but insidious ways that cult start to brainwash people is by isolating them.

So in the context I was in, it was a church, right? So they sat me down early on and they were like, now that you're coming to the church, you know, the devil's going to use people to say bad things about the church. You know, you're going to hear lots of things. But when it happens,

just know that it's the devil trying to steal your salvation. You know, the devil's not happy about this. You know, now you're discovering good and you're, you know, starting this new life. The devil's going to use people, even your mom. You know, watch out, pray. So that when people did start to have questions about the church or whenever I would hear something, it's like, oh, you see pastors said this will happen.

You know, he literally said the devil will use people and it's happening. So it validated him and it made me put even more trust into the group. And that's how cults work. They get into your head early on and enforce this kind of us versus them narrative so that when you naturally do start to get backlash or people start to question it, it's like, well, you know, I was told this will happen. You know, they're my leader is. They were absolutely right.

So that was one of the things that really started to get me. because then, you know, I started to isolate from the outside world. I wasn't allowed to be friends of anyone who didn't attend the church. So at school now, where I would normally have a healthy friendship group, you know, just be with each other and break and do makeup and, you know, just silly teenage things. I was now like isolating myself in a classroom, Bible, or I would actually bring leaflets in and like go around the classroom, not classroom, in class, yes, but like break time handing out leaflets and inviting people to come to the church and that was my life like no friends outside of

it how did that go like no well no no no people came but i tried did they give you was it a bit it's like oh i'm not coming to that or was it was the devil in them telling you that you were crazy or wrong or doing whatever like were you getting pushback or was it not a lot of people came looking back thank goodness but it was a thing where they put in my mind that i was now responsible for everyone's soul. And because all of these people do not attend the church, they're going to go to hell. And it was very big on apocalyptic kind of ideology.

So any minute now, Jesus can come back. And when he comes back, you're responsible. You're the angel in your school. You're responsible for saving their souls. So in my mind, it's like, oh my God, I'm saved. That's heavy. But like everyone in this school is like not saved, even teachers. I literally tried to evangelize teachers.

Oh, my God bless you. You know, completely radicalized, completely. That is so stressful. Yeah. It was. It was. I suffered from a lot of anxiety. I wonder why I have anxiety now.

Literally, that was my life every single day. And what about your parents? What about your mom? That's the thing. Again, it's this idea of when you're inside of a cult, you don't know you're in a cult. You don't know anything that you're doing is wrong or anything that's happening to you is wrong. To you, it's your normal. So because I was always portraying the church to be this incredible.

place, you know, that changed my life and helped me and that's what my friends are. Naturally, my mom wouldn't have been suspicious because to her is like, well, she spends all her time there. She talks highly of it. You know, I've never heard her complain. You know, and back then there was no press, not like what it is now where there's lots of awareness, thank goodness. But back then, if you were to even Google it, you wouldn't see anything. You wouldn't hear anything about other survivors. So, of course, naturally you would think it's a great place. No issues there. Did you try and get her to join? Oh, yeah. Oh, I tried hard. I tried to bribe my brothers.

I bet you did because you were worried about what would happen if they didn't. Exactly, exactly. And that was the everyday kind of preaching, you know. Jesus is coming back at any moment. So you have to save souls. You have to do it. And because it was very big on, you know, child labour, we would be in the church every day cleaning, evangelizing. Now, I say evangelizing with the quotation marks because evangelism will mean that, you know, you're talking to people about Jesus, you're preaching the gospel. We didn't evangelize, we recruited, you know, it was very much, come to this event we're having, come to this youth group, you know, the church can change your life, this meeting can change

your life, that's what we used to do. But because we were brainwashed into thinking that it was evangelism, I thought I was saving souls, you know, so when I'm handing out a leaflet or I'm fundraising, like they're big on fundraising. So I spent a lot of, pretty much all of my Christmas times in the church on the street fundraising. Christmas hat. Hivis, literally bucket in hand. We had to sing and dance for like seven hours plus. But to me, it was saving souls because I was told that the money was going to be, you know, spent on the church, you know, to open new buildings, do stuff for the youth group. We never seen a penny of it. Really? You know, we didn't see a penny of it. We were suffering. We were poor. You know, we were in the church all weekend long, starving. We literally

had to like survive on a pack of biscuits between us because we couldn't go home because we had to be in the church doing something the church never used to feed us or anything like it was completely unheard of when you went home after that did would you say to you a moment oh i've not eaten today or i've not what did you do today i was cleaning like was there were there question marks about like your sort of welfare when you were within it there wasn't you know because i don't even remember like eating or having an appetite back then it was weird it was like my whole life was fixated on the church. It was really weird. And I never had those conversations with my mom like, oh, I'm really hungry. I didn't eat today. Nothing because my mind was probably

focused on something else, you know, the next event that's coming up. Well, I suppose it's probably quite easy as well to tell you not to be greedy and that's the sin and whatever. So. Yeah. And they're really what they didn't address it. You know, it was literally to the point where we never even expected anything from the church. Like we didn't think to ever ask or anything like that that would have been out the question you know the church don't do that and what were you expected to give the church apart from all of the recruiting and the fundraising was that the main pretty much everything we had to give financially from the age of 13 i was a tiver so you know typh is not exclusive to the ucg it's not exclusive to any church but it's widely debated among

Christians, if you should even give Typh because it was preached about in the Old Testament, right? It's an Old Testament law. So, you know, a lot of churches do do it, some don't, but the UKKG is big on Typh. And they preach that you have to give 10% of your income off the top. So if you get paid before you pay your bills, before you do anything, you have to separate that first 10% because that's your Typh because it says so in the book of Malakai. So from age 13, whenever I get my pocket money, you know, five or a day to buy food, I would go. go to the corner shop, break that 5R, take 50p, in the type envelope, and can spend the 90. But then when I go to service later on, I'm going to have to also give an offering.

So it's like the money was constantly going into the church, you know, through different streams. So that was the financial aspect. And, you know, the physical kind of labour was a lot, like, every weekend long. Like, we had to attend these meetings, like 7 a.m. Saturday. and you're not leaving until maybe like 9 p.m. until the church is cleaned. And then again, Sunday, you have to attend the 7.30 service, 10 a.m. service. Youth group, 130. Sometimes they do a service 4 p.m. and then you're leaving again around 8, 9 o'clock after the church is cleaned. That's the whole weekend gone.

Was there a point where you were like, this doesn't feel quite right? Or did something happen? or were you asked to do something that you were like, hang on. Maybe you didn't leave at that point, but did it something that felt strange? Yeah, there were little things that felt strange. Colts are really good at getting into your head. You know, you're not even allowed to think for yourself. So they used to preach the thing called having bad eyes. So whenever you question the church or, you know, you question the authority of the church,

you're accused of having bad eyes. And that basically makes you self-please so that you're not even allowed to think doubts. You're not even allowed to think about challenging people. So even when these weird things would happen, I weren't even really allowed to unpack it. Like, for example, they have this event twice a year where you have to give like a large financial offering in order to receive some kind of miracle.

Twice a year. Always around Christmas and always around the summertime. And the premise is that, you know, they will take like a Bible verse of like Abraham or something and they'll say, well, Abraham sacrificed his son, the thing he loved the most, in order to get a blessing. you must also sacrifice what you love the most. You know, maybe you're attached to your phone.

Maybe you're attached to your laptop. Maybe you have savings that you're attached to. This is what God wants from you. Literally, and they'll have these little promo videos or people like selling their house, giving their mortgage payments, like literally like giving everything in order to receive something looking back. That's quite mundane, you know,

just to like get a promotion or something. Like, how could you justify like selling your house to get a promotion? It's not making sense. So that never set well with me. I didn't want to, like, throw myself into voluntary poverty twice a year. But you kind of had to because they had ways to basically make you feel so guilty and, like, gaslighting you if you didn't attend. Because to even take part in this event, you had to get up and go on the stage and take

the envelope. And you don't want to be the person, you know, sitting in your seat. So you get up and you go and you grab an envelope. And then you don't want to be the person not going to present that sacrifice on the final day. So they have their ways of really controlling you. So those events, I hated. You know, it put a, like, I felt a pit in my stomach whenever it was announced because it's like for months and months,

you're being shown these crappy videos about these people doing crazy things and you know you have to take part. And I didn't want to. I really didn't want to, but I kind of had to put something in the envelope. What kind of things were you at that age? Good. I mean, like little money's here and there, maybe saving up dinner money. There was one time, and this was late.

down the line and this is kind of where it got to break in point this was a stage where I started to quiet quit that was after I got married in the church I got married age 19 and looking back that is crazy because my sister's 18 and I'm looking at it and I'm thinking my god like you're a child like you're literally a kid like you know you're so young and so innocent I was young and so innocent like how could I've got married but it was so normal back then it made sense it made perfect sense at the time but around that time I took part in one of the these campaigns because my husband was dirt poor, I was dirt poor, so I needed a financial breakthrough. So I told my husband to sell all my clothes and all my shoes and I am still mad

as hell about it because I had some nice things back then because at the time I tried uni and because I qualified for the higher amount with student finance, I kind of blew it on new clothes and stuff as you know students do sometimes. So for the first time I had like lots of nice trainers and lots of nice clothes sold it all sold it all for change and put the money in the envelope and that really made me mad i was like you know this can't be right like i know i'm not going to become a millionaire like i know nothing's going to happen i know that i'm not going to get this bakery why am i doing this to myself so there was a lot of self-loving at that point and around that time yeah i definitely started to quiet quit because it was the psychological torment you know

it's not just the physical things. It was the psychological kind of heavy, low burden of always having to be perfect, always having to say the right thing, do the right thing, not being allowed to go to family get-togethers, for example. And if I did want to go, I had to ask her permission. You know? I had to ask her permission, absolutely. Especially if there was an event the next Sunday,

I couldn't just go to a family barbecue. No. Things were needed to be done in the church, you know, financially and mentally and So I just physically, I felt so drained, so constrained. We weren't allowed to listen to wealthy music. You know, that was annoying. We only can listen to songs that they deemed reasonable. You know, even some Christian songs you weren't allowed to listen to you.

It's like, I want to listen to Rihanna, damn it. I want to listen to, you know, some of these songs, but I can't, you know, because I feel like it's illegal. So psychologically as well, it was super, super scary. Did you feel when it was a question of like the songs and that sort of thing, where it was God was going to be angry with you? Or was it more that the church was going to be angry? Did you feel like you were sinning or did you feel like you were in trouble? That's a good question. That's a really good question. I think a little of both, you know,

I would feel it was definitely illegal. It literally felt like contraband. Like, literally so illegal. But looking back, I think, I don't think it was, I don't know, it's weird because in cults, especially religious cults, the lines between God and group is blurred. So God was very much church and church was very much good. So I suppose it was definitely a bit of both, but it just felt so illegal. Sorry, just to push on this because I'm so interested in the like what it does because you were so young. Yeah. If you were to do it, was it a question?

And I don't, I don't know a lot about faith and Christianity beyond sort of what I've like observed. Yeah. So I don't know, was it a question of like the, because you're talking about like self-loathing and stuff and all of those feelings. is coming and I know that there is a lot of guilt and guilt is something that's used a lot by the church and probably exploited it as an emotion. When you were doing the thing, the bad thing, if you did the bad thing by accident or on purpose, was it a thing of like an internal shame where it was like I have failed and I'm a bad person or was it, I hope no one finds out that I've done this bad thing. Was it this idea that like God's omnipresence

of he's going to know that I've done it or was it more external? It was both. It was both and it was everything. I literally felt like if I was to listen to a Beyonce song, I forfeit my salvation. Jesus might come back five minutes after

and in which case I've lost my salvation. I maybe don't have the Holy Spirit. So that's another thing. It just meant so much negativity not just like on a physical level but on a spiritual level

like I felt because in the UCKG they treat salvation very much like Mario coins. You know when you're going through and you have to collect all the coins. Like you have to collect your deliverance, you have to collect the Holy Spirit, you have to collect your uniform,

you know, it's literally like all of these things. When you listen to worldly music or you do anything else, they're deemed worldly. It's like you're forfeiting those coins and you have to start back at level one. You've hit the banana and spun out. Literally. That's literally what it felt like horribly stressful. Can I ask one more thing on that? Sorry, is there an opportunity for redemption for you, right there? Or is it a case? Is there something that you can do immediately where it's like, I've sinned, I've done the bad thing. I'm going to say sorry and it's going to be okay. Or I'm going to punish myself, do something where I can redeem myself.

Or is it a case of like, I'm going to be repenting this for the next 10 years? Well, you can definitely repent by speaking to the pastoral. And that's another way they enforce control because they keep you in a state of vulnerability. And they actively promote that when you do fall sure or fall into sin, you can be redeemed. But you have to confess your sins. You have to tell the pastor's wife. If you keep it to yourself, then yeah, you're definitely going to hell. But if you confess your sin and receive a prayer of deliverance,

which is basically a nexusism, then you're good. And that was a big part of my life. Demons were vivid. It weren't just like a concept or like a spiritual thing. It was literally like demons all around us in people's life. They cause me to do stuff. They cause people to do stuff. And they could be delivered via Friday services in the UCK.

you. It was crazy. I'm really surprised having heard everything that you've told us and I'm sure we're not even like scratching the surface here of what you experienced and like all of that manipulation. I'm surprised that you even managed to come out of it. I don't think I would. That's the thing. Some people never will. That's the scary thing about it. It's scary because it's not just your physical kind of comfort zone that will be completely out of whack because your whole life revolves around the group. It's the psychological fear. It's just like leaving an abusive relationship. You know, I was coerced. I was threatened. I was told that if I left the church, I'm leaving the covering of good. Bad things can happen to me. Bad things can happen to my family. We were shown

graphic images of ex-members who supposedly had passed away in some terrible circumstances as a warning. You know, this person was sitting where you are and they left. And now look, that's powerful imagery to be shown when you're a minor, right? Had they died? Well, allegedly, I still don't even know how they found those pictures, but they were pretty graphic. I've seen at least three graphic images. One of a ex-bishop, supposedly, who was involved in a motorbike accident, and he was basically like decapitated. It was super gross. And the other one was an ex-assistant. Actually, they hung themselves. And that image was shown to us. Just willy-nilly, just shown. And The UCKG admitted to showing graphic images a few months ago in a never article.

You know, they admitted to it for the first time. Did you know that person? I knew the bishop who apparently died in the motorbike accident. That's what made it super creepy. And that's what enforces the narrative. Because a lot of people think, well, if it was so bad, why didn't you just leave? You don't leave because you are literally being psychologically tortured. You know, it's coercion.

I wouldn't live. That's terrifying. It's terrifying. So scary. because they also say things like, you know, you're the only reason that your family's still walking. You're the only reason because you're in the church, because you're giving your type, is the only reason your parents don't lose their jobs.

So for me to leave, I'm not just like putting myself on the line. My family may suffer too. You know, it's a lot of psychological warfare going on. When you talk about like us, You were, obviously, there were other members. That first day when you went in, did you go in by yourself? Yes. And did you make friends, did you find your sense beyond the community that the church was?

Did you find your community with other people within that you met? You mean after leaving? No, no, no, while you were there. No. They were everything. That was it. That was my social circle. That was my friends.

That was everything. Those were my peers. if you weren't a member of the church, you was not a friend of mine. But did you like the members of the church? You do grow to like them. You grow to like some more than others, you know, and it's funny because looking back, all of the pastors I really liked and all of the friends I really liked have all left and the people that I didn't get on with still in there because I have a theory, you know, good, genuine people don't last in these kind of environments. They may stay for a little while, but eventually they leave.

And that's the reality of it, you know. So your husband was a member of the cult. He was, I weren't allowed to marry anyone outside of the group. You had to marry inside the group and get permission from the pastoral before you can date. So did you quiet quit together? No. Okay, tell us, tell us. This feels like a big thing.

So when I got married age of 19, we were both assistants, right? So that was kind of, so when we got married, basically, that's the big thing that kind of like broke the camel's back. So in the UCKG, they don't have a marriage license. So you have to get married in the registry office and then do, you know, big church ceremony. So that's what we did, right? So when I got married in the registry office, that night we consummated our vows for the first time because, of course, we couldn't do it beforehand because Jesus can come back.

You know, you don't want to like lose your salvation over lust, right? So that night, yeah, you know, we were married. It's like, okay, cool. So the next day, and of course, no honeymoon, we were broke. Like, do, poor, like, so the next day I went into church and I was actually questioned by the pastor's wife and she was like that anything happened. And I'm like, yeah, thinking nothing of it because in my mind it's like, we're married now. I'm like, what's the big deal? Apparently it was a big deal. Her husband called me later on that day, asked me again what

happened and I told him because there's no boundaries and cults, no such thing. Like, you're not allowed to keep anything sacred. You have to tell them everything. So he called back and said that, something's wrong and I've been summoned to Finsbury Park to speak to the pastor in charge of the assistants because I was an assistant. I was senior in the church at that point because I started really young. By age 15 I was recruited into a role called an assistant which is basically like just under the youth pastor. So I had to perform exorcisms. I had to basically be responsible for a subgroup in the church. I had to be a mentor. I had to basically do everything for the church. You were performing exorcisms at 15. Yes. After going through them when I was 30, it's crazy. Holy shit.

Can you explain what I look like? Sure. So exorcisms, they don't call it that. They call it prayers of deliverance or strong prayers. So essentially, because they're so, like, fixated on demons, they believe everyone has a demon. So age 13, they were like, you should come on Fridays to fight against, you know, darkness. And I was like, okay, sure.

So before the service, they were like, what problem are you going through? Like, what do you want God to deliver you from? and because I didn't have any like major issues I was like I don't know and then they kind of like started to cherry pick things so boys do you have family problems and I'm like okay maybe I argue with my mom I like boys okay good we'll deliver you tonight so kind of armed with this information during the prayer they tell you to close your eyes and put your hands on your heart and keep still and then they make the room dead silent and then the pastors and the assistants go around and they lay hands on the member's heads.

And they laid a hand on my head, one hand behind my back, and they whisper into your ear, and they're like, the demon that's causing this young girl to sleep around, come out. Show yourself. I know you're in there. And they literally like, it's like they're calling for some kind of demon to come forward. Now, because we had to go every single Friday, it was learnt behavior, I think for me.

I knew that when the pastor or an assistant laid a hand on my head, if I was guilty of anything they've accused, you know, If I did fall short or fall into sin, that was the only way to be delivered from this demon. So because everyone else was screaming and shouting and reacting to the prayer, I kind of thought, okay, this is what I have to do. They push your head back as well. So they kind of like coax you into a reaction. So it's mass hysteria in a lot of ways.

You know, you feel that that's what you have to do to be delivered. But then it gets really violent and they end up putting you in a headlock, like literally in a headlock, like locking your neck and holding you close and a part of you is like struggling to get out of the headlock because you're literally in pain and then the other side is like but this is the demon that has to come out of me

you know so you feel like you have to purge this evil spirit very physical I often left you know bruised stiff neck cut clothes it was just very violent in nature but because everyone else was doing it and it happened every single Friday I thought it was completely normal

and you got to desensitized That's a good word. I think I was definitely desensitized. Definitely. And to your point earlier about having to confess your sins to the pastor, if you're having to scream your so-called sins into a room, it's like a humiliation element to that as well. Big deal.

And it gets so much more worse. They actually interview demons. So when someone reacts to this kind of prayer, they drag you up to the stage, you know, they would pull hair, you know. It's not uncommon for the pastor to literally pull hair. and pull the girl onto the stage and they put the microphone to your mouth

and they're like, speak demon, tell the church what you're doing to this young person and if you know that you've, I don't know if you have sex with your boyfriend or something yesterday, you know it's go time, you have to confess. So you're like, I cause her to have sex, literally in front of the whole church.

Oh, man. In front of the whole church. And what happens then? Then they interviewed a demon a little more because of course you would interview a demon. Why not give a demon a microphone, right? It was crazy looking back. But once they interviewed the demon and basically got that scare factor and, like, terrified the whole church, they cast the demon out. So they lay hands, in the name of Jesus, get out. And then you supposedly come to. And after being wrestled for half an hour, of course you feel lighter. Of course you feel better. Then they're like, stand up. Of course. They're like, stand up. How do you feel now? It's like, I feel good. Yeah, because you feel relieved. You got off of me, literally half an hour having me in a headlock. Of course I feel good.

And that feeds into the psychology of it. Because you feel relieved, you're like, this does work because I do feel better. I came in feeling guilty because I had sex with my boyfriend, which I didn't. I was actually a good kid. But now I feel lighter. It's like, yeah, because you were carrying around all of this guilt because of purity culture and you've been wrestled for half an hour and they got off of you. Of course, you feel better.

But to them, it's like, you see, the prayers work. This is why you have to come back next Friday. And that was my life for two years until I became. an assistant age 15. And now I had to go and perform these prayers on others who also needed deliverance. Were you still being delivered at that age? At that age, I was deemed to be delivered. So when you attend enough Friday services and you basically conform,

when you dress the way they want you to dress or when you speak the way they want you to speak when you attend certain services, you are deemed to be someone that is delivered. And now when you're delivered, onto the next Mario coin, Holy Spirit. You have to come on Wednesdays to receive the Holy Spirit. because you don't just get it freely, you have to fight for it. What is the Holy Spirit give you? The Holy Spirit apparently makes you qualify to be an assistant. And how do you get the Holy Spirit?

Good question. You have to attend certain services in the church. So you can't miss a Wednesday service because that is seeking of the Holy Spirit. You can't miss Friday services because even though now you're delivered, you still have to come to fight against the devil. You have to come on Saturdays to do the work of good, which is that service. I told you about 7 a.m. and 10 a.m. You have to come to the church and evangelize because that shows that you have the Holy Spirit or that you really want it. And of course, you have to

attend Sunday. So basically, once you jump through all of their hoops, they deem you to be qualified and have the Holy Spirit. And then you can move on to the next round, which is to become an assistant. And that's where I was age 15 in my little uniform. I had to pay over 400 pounds for this really elaborate uniform they wear. Oh my gosh. 400 pounds. And looking back, it was so gross, because I was a little kid. I was a baby. Red lipstick. Basically dressed like a British Airway's stewardess. And they probably ripped off the uniform. It's exactly the same. And what? Did you, is that pocket money that you saved? Did you have to ask your mom for it? You know, that's the random thing. That was a lot of money. But I begged my mom. And I think at that

point, because I was so weird and I weren't a regular kid, that was all I wanted. Like, I didn't need money for trainers or concerts or anything like that. Just give me the money to buy this uniform so that I can become an assistant. And I don't know how my mom got the money, but she did. And I went to Finnsbury Park, 400 pounds in my pocket, got measured up and paid for my uniform. And that was it. I was no longer just Rachel. I now was assistant Rachel, Miss Rachel, whenever anyone would address me, they would have to address me by the correct title, which was assistant. So imagine how weird, 15 years old, hills, little skirt, you know, the little blazer assistant rachel it was just so creepy now you know how could they have

begin to have given me safeguarding training when i needed safeguarding because i had to cancel people we had to literally speak to people who were going through crisis i spoke to married people going through domestic abuse people being abused peers being abused 15 years old it was just so so it's never not going to be crazy you know they're still doing it they're still doing it through my work with Surviving Universal UK now you have to be over 18 so silver lining but even still 18 years old doing those kind of things

it should be completely illegal it shouldn't be allowed but that was my reality back then I really want to go back to where you were when you had to go to Finnsbury Park to see the pastor but just on those counselling things was it a case that people had to come to you if for example they were being domestically abused was it a case that they had to come to you

because they had to come to somebody. Were you having these meetings anyway or were you being sought out to help them? And if so, what kind of advice? Do you just tell them God's love? What do you do? What do you tell them? It's a weird one.

Because they rely on you being vulnerable, they always encourage that you have to speak to someone. You know, we're here if you need to talk. You know, we're here before services. We would have to set up a chair. Like, I sit here and set up a chair here before the service and people would have to come and like sit and talk to you before the service. So you'd have to sit there with your Bible and just wait for someone to come and

talk. So because I was wearing that uniform, they saw it as like, I'm a woman of good. You know, I'm anointed. I can help them with their problem. And back then, I was probably the second youngest assistant in the UK at that time. So I was super, super young and really exploited in terms of the youth group. Because there was no other young person in the youth group, I became like the poster girl of the youth group. So people saw me as anointed, you know, she's in the face. And she can help me so when people would come and talk to me you know looking back as like what who would have really went to a 15 year old kid for advice but because in that kind of environment you don't see it as strange you see it as you know she's not a 15 year old child

she's a woman of good she's an she's an assistant she's wearing this uniform so when people would come it would literally be a thing where I would tell them what service to come to so if they're going through immigration problems which many people did come on Monday service you know, come for seven Monday services and pray at this time and, you know, God will deliver you, you know. If you're going through insomnia or depression, come on Fridays, you know, just that kind of thing. It's like regurgitation a lot of the time. But yeah, that's what I used to do. So back to that moment where the pastor rang you and said you have to come to Finsbury Park because I've been a naughty gal. Yeah, talk to us. So I wasn't summoned with my husband.

It takes two to tango, right? So, like, why was I even, that was the first thing that got me? It's like, okay, why am I in this by myself? It weren't just me. So I went to Finsbury Park. I was taken upstairs into this little room. It was just me. And coincidentally, that's the bishop in charge of the UK now,

because you have to work your way up. So at the time, he was just in charge of the assistance, but now he's in charge of the whole of the UK. So it went up into a room, and he was literally like, okay, so tell me what happened. And I had to tell him everything, you know, what happened, why it happened, why I didn't wait for my wedding, which was taking place around maybe a week or two

after the legal wedding. And I was basically told that what I did was very sinful, even though I was married under the eyes of man. I wasn't married under the eyes of good and that I committed a grave sin and that I could no longer wear my uniform. I need to seek deliverance and I need to think about what I've done. So basically I got fired from my voluntary role as an assistant. And when you're in a cult, title and hierarchies everything, you know, because I weren't pursuing

anything outside of the church. Outside of the church, I was in no one. I literally, like, had no kind of, like, sense of self, nothing. My whole sense of self and kind of worth was in the church. It was wrapped up in this title because that's the kind of space they want you in. So when I was demoted because of something that I knew wasn't a sin, it was like, okay, the same, right? You know, immediately disenfranchised. I was. was like, this ain't right. You know, I felt so ashamed. He made me feel dirty. But it's like that dissonance started to slip because it's like, I didn't commit sin. He's my husband. We're literally married. So why am I being punished? Like, why am I being made to feel like this dirty kind of like

Jazzabel, Jezabel, when I literally just did what married people do? So that really started the process of quiet quitting. You know, I just felt like something wasn't right. You know, know, and then it made me question, if they're wrong about this, what else are they wrong about? What happened with your husband then? If he didn't, was it odd to him that he wasn't being told off? Did you, he had no consequences for what he'd done? So he actually lost his uniform a few weeks prior. So at that point, he was an in insistent evil. So at the time, I suppose it's like, well, you can't judge me. I can't judge you because now we're both basically like deemed not good enough. So after we got married now, it was like, now I'm not. Now, I'm

not in this uniform. I'm no longer assistant Rachel. I can kind of like take a back seat. I can, you know, kind of draw away a little bit. And during that time, it's like, I started to question things. I started to side eye things. And in cults, generally, and it doesn't matter what cult you go to, you have to basically snitch on each other. That's a big thing. If you come to me with a doubt or you're like, I don't agree with what pastor said. I have to go and snitch to the pastor about your behavior in love, because I love your soul, so I have to care for you by snitching on you. So it's like I had all of these doubts in my mind, but I couldn't even like talk to anyone about it. So I couldn't validate the way I was feeling. And I could not talk to my husband

about it because he was like a little less forward thinking than I was. But it got to a point where age 21, I was super depressed. You know, by the end, I was so depressed because it's like I can't leave, but I can't stay. I cannot keep on attending these services. I feel like I want to scream. I don't believe in it anymore. I hate this place. I don't want to be here anymore. I don't want to be in this church.

But I can't leave because then all of those demons that I cast it out will be waiting for me as per their threats. So it's like, I can't leave. I can't stay. So I was super, super depressed. But I got to a point where I was literally back at my mom's house because we got evicted because, of course, my husband gave our rent to the church for this campaign,

for this event that I told you about. So back in my childhood room, literally depressed as hell and I'm like, I'm not going back. I'm not going. And it was random. It was like a Tuesday or a Wednesday or something like that. And I'm like, I'm not going back. Then I grabbed my phone.

I written a message and I'm like, look, I no longer agree with what the UKG does. I know that you're going to be told that you're not allowed to speak to me anymore, but I still want to maintain contact. Bye. I'm not coming back. Send. I sent it to all my friends at the time and I didn't go back. And it was like, gosh, what do I?

do you know. It's like, suddenly I have all of this free time. Suddenly, like, who am I? What am I? But I felt good. I felt free for the first time. So a lot of things are going through my mind. It's like, it's my husband going to leave me because that's one of the things, that's only, like, that's one of the most, well, the only reasons you can divorce in the UCKG. Like, if there's any other issue, domestic violence, you don't like your husband anymore, you're not allowed to get divorced. But if one of you leave the church, that's grounds for divorce. So if In my mind, it's like, is my husband going to leave me? But because we were so poor and miserable and I really didn't like him like that, to be

honest, it was like, I don't mind. Like, at this point, I don't mind, okay? Like, he can go, but I'm out. I'm not going back. So, of course, he freaked out at first. And he was told by people, I saw a message on Facebook. Someone was like, you know, I heard Rachel left the church, you know, don't listen to her. Don't let her contaminate your faith.

And that made me mad. I was like, come on, this ain't right. Like, number one, why are you messaging my husband? like I literally just left and then it's like you know we were all cool a week ago a week ago we were all brothers and sisters in faith now I'm the enemy like what is this

so it was crazy my husband didn't leave me and it was like I'm free what now there was just silence because before you know like I knew what I was doing every Friday for the next 10 years

you know you live on their schedule you do what they say dress how they dress you live according to what they want suddenly it's like I am free like I am so free so at first it was super lonely of course because overnight I got cut off you know they teach like many courts do when someone leaves the fold they're not to be trusted you know they are an enemy of the group they left because they wanted the world you know they forfeited good so they made up so many things about me so overnight I left my whole kind of community and support system but it was like in that size

I found something quite beautiful about it because it's like now who's Rachel? What does Rachel like? Where does Rachel want to go? What does Rachel want to do this Friday? You know, so it took a while. It took a lot and a lot of it was just wandering through, you know, just kind of like stumbling upon things. Learning to trust yourself again was one of the hardest things because in quotes, they teach you not to trust yourself, not to trust your judgment, not to trust your instincts, you know? So learning to trust myself again was really one of the hardest things. things. But, you know, with trust, you know, it's earned. You know, I earned myself that trust. It's like, okay, so you listen to that song and a piano didn't drop out of the sky and kill you. What next? You know? And I just learned to trust myself and I learned to trust my own judgment and what I wanted. So my husband left around three years after I did. So he was very much still attending, but he also started to quiet quit. At first, I was very much like, I need to rescue him. Like, do you know, it's a bad place? At that time, I didn't have the language to call it a cult. But I was like, you know, it's not a good place. They don't teach the word of God properly.

And then it was like, okay, let me just leave him. You know, he'll come to his own conclusion. He did. Were you living together? We were living together. Yeah. So he moved into your mom's house with you. Yeah. So at that point, we were literally all in my mom's house, in my single bedroom, trying to figure this out. So he left three years after I did. We had a son. And in the church, they taught that you're not allowed to have kids. Literally. No. It was a big non. When we got mad, they would no intention of having kids. Like, absolutely not. Kids take money.

Exactly. And they don't want that. Energy. They need all of that. Yeah. And plus users is coming back. So it'll be selfish to have a kid. Yeah.

But you were supposed to use contraception, presumably, or abstain for sex. You know, that's the weird thing. They never even spoke to us about that. The premise was, don't get pregnant. Oh. Full stop. Just don't get pregnant. So was your husband in the church when you had your son?

No, he left at that point. Yeah. So we didn't have my son until maybe like, I don't know, maybe a year or two after he left. So we got pregnant and then during lockdown, that is when kind of Rachel was stepping into her, this is my life era. It was like we had no business of getting married, right? The only reason we got married was because we both attended the same church, similar age, and it seemed like a good idea at the time, right?

There was very little else to kind of like keep us in there. So during lockdown, it was like, yeah, we're going on separate ways. When you leave coach, you either sink or swim, you either kind of go down a path of self-destruction, regression, mental health declines, you can really go through it, or you can kind of swim, swim your ass off because you don't want to prove them right, because they say that when you leave, you know, your life goes downhill, you know, everything goes wrong and I was determined to prove them wrong. So I swam my ass off and my ex-husband unfortunately didn't. He started to regress back into the age he was when he first came. He wanted to be a rapper. You know, he started

drinking, smoking. And, you know, that wasn't something I wanted. So during lockdown, it was like, yeah, bye. So we separated. And when we separated, it was like, for the first time, there's nothing holding me back. Because even though he left, he was still very afraid of the church. We weren't ever allowed to talk about it. If I did try to bring it up, it would cause huge arguments, like big, big blowout. So it was like the elephant in the room. So now that he weren't in the picture during lockdown, I was talking to a friend. And over the years, I spoke to other people who left and we would always like compare notes and like, oh my God, like you went through the same thing. It was like, there was no kind of platform. There was

nothing. So during lockdown, I spoke to a friend and I'm like, I'm going to go live on on Instagram. I'm going to talk about it. Can you join me? And then my friend came on with me. And for the first time, we spoke about all of these things. And I remember feeling so scared because they teach that speaking badly about the church is like one of the worst sins. Like, worse. Like, I felt like I was going to die. Literally, it felt so illegal, but so good. After we went live that time, people started reaching out and they were like, I went through

the exact same thing. Like, can I come on next week and speak? And it's like, yeah. So people started messaging, literally messaging every single day, different messages. I had on different people come on and share their stories. And I had no intention on like starting a movement or a group. anything like that. You know, my intention was to just finally speak out about my experiences. But I saw quickly that this needed to happen. Like, there was a need not only to like have a safe

space to talk, but for accountability. It's like, no, they're not going to get away of it. They did me so dirty. You know, they, I lost my whole teenage years. I age 21, I was basically 15 years old. You know, I didn't understand dating. I didn't understand like alcohol drinking. I didn't understand anything about the real world because I spent it in that place and it was like they're still doing it to people like they've done it to like no we need to hold them account here and that's how surviving universal UK was born it literally came from me going live on Instagram and sharing my experiences it turned into this this thing this force and I'm just so proud because it's needed there was nothing like it before it's incredible it's I imagine it's

something that the church very unhappy about. Yeah, they're not happy. Have you had any communication with them? No, I haven't actually. And that's the interesting thing. They cults rely on fear. They rely on members being too scared to speak out about them, right? And for a long time, you know, when I was married, I was.

But speaking out gave me a lot of empowerment. And it kind of forced them to basically like recalibrate because they weren't used to someone talking out. So of course, they do what all cults do. Defame, deflect. Oh, she left because of sin. She's saying bad things about the church. But I just kind of used it to kind of push the monument forward to get greater awareness. They've never retaliated, you know, a lot of people are scared to go after the cult that was involved in because they're scared of getting sued. You know, they're scared of the cult going after them, physical threat. I didn't know what I was up again because there was nothing to compare it to you. So I didn't know if I was going to get assassinated.

I didn't know what was going to happen, but it got to your apartment and was like, we're just going to have to see this through because I'm not going to let them get away with it. Like, they took my teenagers. They're not about to take other people's lives and destroy it the way they tried with me. So, no, there's been no contact, no apology, you know, no kind of accountability. You know, one of the first things I knew I had to do in Surviving Universal UK was to get press on this because I knew if there isn't anything in the media. then whenever you Google the UCKD,

you're just going to see the fluffy stuff. You're going to see the glossy stuff. You're going to see how amazing they are and all of the amazing things they do. It's like, we need to change the narrative. Our voices need to be represented in the media. So I literally like, maybe two, three a.m., I literally like Googled a bunch of journalists.

And I'm like, yeah, I was a member of this church. I think it's a cult. Can you look into this? And only one got back to me. And that was made from the Guardian. and that was the very first expose into the UCKG in the English-speaking world. It was huge. It meant so much to be validated and to actually have the press acknowledge the problem.

And even then, you know, and up until now, they've never admitted to it. They never apologised, you know, they haven't been held account. They are a registered charity. They continue to be legitimized platform. But the difference now is survivors have a voice and they can't escape the fact that Survivor's voices are being heard. You know, when you Google the UCKG now, you're not seeing the glitter and the fluff. You're seeing the ex pose.

You're hearing the survivors' experiences, which for me just means that it's only a matter of time. You know, their time's up. You know, the day of reckonings coming and I'm just so thrilled to have been a part of it, you know? because if people don't kind of take that first step, then places like this continue to grow and recruit other people and get bigger and get emboldened. And if I make an example of the UCKG, it sets a powerful precedent because, of course,

they're not the only people doing this. You know, there's many cults these days, many cults, different shapes, different sizes, different names, but all the same kind of thing. You know, me holding the UCKG account will inspire other survivors as it has done to also speak out. So it means the world to, to me, you know?

On a personal level now that you're out the other side, it sounds like you've operated within a lot of sort of like trepidation in that like, I'm going to do the thing and then just like keep my fingers crossed that they weren't right. How have you leveled and have you been able to maintain any faith throughout this personally? I definitely went through a stage, but I weren't trying to hear none of it because I was triggered, you know, because of course it's triggering.

Like even now, I have complex post-traumatic stress disorder. You know, when I go to a church, like I went to a conference and they had a pulpit with a cross on it. And that triggered me because immediately I was back in a service in front of the pastor with the pulpit. So like certain crosses trigger me, certain words, certain areas trigger me. So for a long time, I just avoided religion altogether. I kind of avoided good. I avoided all of it. But over the years, because I gave myself the freedom to kind of see what works for me, what resonates for me,

I got to a place now where I have a sense of spirituality and it just feels so tranquil because there's no one like breathing over my shoulder there's no one telling me what to do, what to believe. I believe in what I want and it makes sense to me. So it's so empowering, you know. I feel my own kind of direct personal relationship with God and it makes sense to me.

You know, I'm not having anyone tell me what to do, when to do it. It's beautiful and that's something that comes of kind of, you know, advocating for yourself and going against the grain and doing what you want to do, which is something I take seriously now, having been someone that wasn't a coal. Can I just ask you, because it's bothering me and I really want to know, within the hierarchy of it, which tiers benefit financially? Good question. So with all codes, and when I say you've been in one cult, you've been in them all, I mean it. All coats operate exactly. the same. All exactly the same. Different playbook, but the same kind of model. So the foot soldiers,

or shall I say like the show is like the people at the bottom. So they're the new recruits. They're the ones who are coming consistently. Then you have the kind of like ringleaders, the people who are charged with like enforcing the ideology. Then you might have the more senior kind of like bishops in my case. And then I think the people that benefit financially in the UCKG is definitely like the 1% who rallies around the cult leader in Brazil. Because at the top of the pyramid, you have a billionaire cult leader who has a net worth higher than Kim Kardashian. No way.

Yes. Edia Meseido is one of the wealthiest and most powerful men in Latin America. He's a billionaire. We're not talking millions. We're talking billions. Yeah. Wow. And he benefits.

He benefits. So he is the founder and leader of the UCKJ. Yes. Wow. So he's at the very top And everyone he keeps close So he's daughters, he's son-in-laws A few people that's kind of in on the secret

They stay at the very top The regular pastors live in poverty You know, they recruit a lot of young black pastors Here in the UK Absolute poverty, you know They are hungry a lot of the time The assistants literally have to feed them You know, they are living literally like

They're on scraps I think of something like 50 pounds a week or something from the church And that's if they choose to get that, they can either get like a small amount every week or basically be fed by the pastor's wife and eat whatever the pastor's wife wants to provide and live in the pastor's house. And they have to live on UCKG premises. So the UCKG basically to become a pastor of the UCKG, your whole life is in the church. You're not allowed to like have your life outside, work and then come and

hold a service. No, you literally have to live in UCKG accommodation and you're not allowed to do anything else outside of the church. So it's just, it's really sad. You know, I had messages from parents saying that when their child turned 18, they literally vanished and moved into the headquarters in Finsbury Park to train to become a pastor. It's like a pastor factory over there, you know, appalling conditions, sleep deprivation, they have to give in their phones, they have limited contact with their family, with the outside world, and they just live in complete servitude to the church under the premise of, this is the work of good, I'm helping people I'm saving souls.

We're going to let you go. But before we do, just on the parent thing, what's your relationship with your family been like since you left? Was it, did everyone start telling you the truth of what they thought once you left? Yeah, there were a few of those moments. Like, yeah, I thought it was a bit weird. But when I left, it was about reconnecting with my family

because for so long, you know, I weren't Rachel anymore. I was someone else. So it was about reconnecting. and reestablishing relationships and reconnecting with people before the cold, you know, my best friends pre-UCCG connecting for them and building up my self-worth and kind of like building up my community again. So yeah, it took time to recover and, you know, get my mental health right and kind of be where I am today. But thank goodness. And work continues, you know. Yeah. I mean, you've been through so much, so much. But the work that you're doing now is

incredibly valuable and you should be so proud of yourself for that. Thank you so much. And we are going to leave the link to Surviving Universal UK in the show notes so people can go check it out and the link to your Instagram account as well. Rachel's a great follow. Thank you so much for joining us today, Rachel. Thank you, I appreciate it. Should I delete that as part of the ACAST creator network?