Shutdown Fullcast - SPECIAL PRESENTATION: The History of Fun on the origins of Madden

Episode Date: June 15, 2018

You've played the popular NCAA video game series - but did you know there's an obscure, little-played NFL version of the same game? Madden is arguably more of a fantasy RPG, since it allows you to explore impossibilities like "Florida produces a viable pro quarterback" or "the Chiefs win a Super Bowl." The History of Fun, made by our friends at Polygon, explores the weird and wild origins of the video game series. We hope you like it, if only because it's not another round of Fullcast horseshit! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, Fullcast, friends. It's your Blumen Boy, Ryan Nanny here, bringing you a very special episode of the History of Fun, a podcast from our buddies over at Polygon. Why are we bringing you this? Well, you may remember that there used to be a video game simulator of college football called NCAA, insert year here. Now, a lot of people don't know this, but there's actually a pro football version of this game as well called, let me see, John Madden football. Did I get, you? Yes, that's correct. History of Fun is going to tell you all about the origins of the Madden series, including the fact that John Madden himself could have made a shitload of money off of this game and just didn't because he didn't feel like it. We hope you like the episode, and if you do, subscribe to the History of Fun for even more explorations of the things you love. Hello and welcome to the history of fun

where we explore the hidden back stories behind the things you love to do My name is Russ Frustick And today I'm joined by Allegra Frank, hey Allegra Hello Russ How you doing? I am very awake as always

As always, very awake If it seems like Allegra is sleepy for three consecutive episodes There's no reason that's the case We are also joined by Chris Plant Hey Chris. Oh, hello, how are you? You know, I'm doing well.

Chris, whenever it's your episode, I feel like I have to walk on eggshells to make sure that I don't accidentally reveal the subject that you're talking about. And this episode is no different. Let me tell you the subject. So an elevator pitch, there is a curse on millionaires, a Super Bowl winning football coach. Whose biggest regret is not buying stock options. And, um, a man named Tripp. Is that short for anything? Triptolomew.

Triptholome, yeah. Yeah. I see. I think that's it. Anyway, so this is the story of Madden, NFL football. You're in the game. E.A. Sports. It's in the.

Madden. Yeah, sure. So, we're going to start this by talking about Trip Hawkins. And just so everybody's on the same page, this is not a full history of, like, everything, Madden. Because that would be a book. We're going to just talk about kind of the origins story here. This is Chapter 1. This is Chapter 1 of the Madden book.

Welcome to episode one of our new Madden podcast, one of 32, a limited series. Right to you by Activision Twist. We're going to dunk on it. It makes no sense Agrient has nothing to gain Trip Hawkins He's born in 1953 And they're like

What will we name this child And they're like Trip Hawkins And they're like perfect That is a great name His last name The parents' last name wasn't even Hawkins They just thought it was like a perfect kid

They were Bart and Bartha Brown He was born to them Um, he's all, fun fact, not everything in this episode's true. Um, he is, uh,

technology savant, uh, an aspiring business person at a very young age. As a baby. As a, as a wee babe. Um, he's also a football obsessive,

but he's a nerd. And I say that like, I'm a nerd. Like, it's 2018. Nerds are cool. Have you seen Big Bang? Um,

BVT. BBT? Do you watch BBT? Do you even watch BVT? He loves the 1967 game Stratomatic which is kind of

like D&D kind, okay, it's just like a tabletop game, but for football. I've played stratomatic. Really? I thought it was from baseball. Maybe both? I think there's a football version. There's definitely a baseball one as well. It's actually pretty

interesting the best way I can describe it is like yeah as you said it's like dn d so you have like actual players based on real players and you would like roll dice to like see if they got a hit or something it was like and they had advantages like in buffs right yeah like one would be good at stealing bases or one based on their like real world stats it was pretty interesting there you go dorky dorky as hell but it might have been the baseball thing but anyway he loves football so this is from a very good feature on ESPN titled by the franchise and we'll be citing that

or sourcing it throughout this episode. He's a bright and precocious teenager. Hawkins created stratomatic knockoff and attempted to start a business around it. His nextra neighbor in California was former AFL President Milt Woodard

who gave Hawkins this opportunity to send a proposal to the game to none other than Kansas City Chief's owner Lamar Hunt who wrote back beat it kid

and Hawkins did not he collected five grand an investment and it totally flopped so he released it as like a board game he created it and tried to release it and it wasn't a hit a failure

So from there He goes to Harvard And he has this idea And he's like you know what The reason it didn't work Math is not fun It's hard We'll get computers to do

All the heavy lifting And he programs a football sim For like one of the giant computers And remember this is the I guess it's late 70s So computers are like They fill rooms You know pretty big

I don't I mean in 60s, they filled rooms. They're probably... So the one he programmed this for used tape data storage. Oh, wow. So, like, the storage alone,

it took up a lot of space. Yeah. He graduates from Harvard. He makes up his own degree in strategy and applied game theory. Wow. No one's hiring that guy.

Funny you should say that. In 1978, right after college, he becomes one of the first hundred people to work at Apple. Hey. Where he makes millions in stock. Where's that company going?

And he uses about $200,000 of his vested stock to invest in electronic arts. So this is 1982, four years later, time it takes to best. So EA existed already at that point. No, no. He's creating it, 1982. Oh, I understand. With the money that he earned from Apple. With some of that money.

I mean, you know, he's not going to put all this money into it. But he is like, he's giving up a pretty good opportunity. he is the director of product marketing at Apple when he leaves and this is like the cusp of the personal computing boom so it's surprising that doesn't seem like like a good fit

like he seems like like a programmer like a game design like doesn't marketing seems like a weird fit for him not really I mean he's always I think that's like kind of why he excelled which we'll get into but he's somebody who like gets how things are made

but largely is a business mind um anyway by the end of nineteen eighty two he secures two million dollars of venture capital um and this is when i mean i say he's a business mind during the funding period he staffs up experts outside of games um so he has like some people from itchari but it's also apple and xerox um he gets steve wosniak to join the board of directors uh so it has a very adult approach, even though he's pretty young in an industry that wasn't really known for

that sort of methodology. Sure. Trivia. What name did Hawkins originally plan to use for the company? Ooh. Softo games.

I'll give you a clue. It's two words, and the second word is software. So I was close Softo games I'm going to go with Tripped Thank you

That doesn't have software in it TRIPS software Okay there we go The name is Hawksoft Nope The name is Amazing software

There's no G in that amazing Oh like the Mets Hmm Interesting The Mets are also amazing The yes I guess that's why he couldn't use it So is there an apostrophe or no?

Electronic Arts The games are pretty astounding In 1983 So this is like right after they've been founded They released pinball construction set And Mule In 85

Or M-U-L-E In 85 they released Bards Tail 87 Skater Die So they're doing really well They're doing especially well when you consider that the games industry essentially collapsed right

when EA was founded. So that is pretty impressive. So they have all these games but really what Hawkins wants is that football game. That's what he's liked from the beginning. And I saw this quote sourced in Sports Illustrated and Wired.

The real reason that I founded EA was because I wanted to make computerized versions of games like Stratomatic. So he left Apple put 200 grand into his own company so he could make this thing

which is just wild he does realize because the industry is a mess which you know maybe we'll get into that if we do a Nintendo seal of approval episode some point down the line he does realize you have to have more than the game you have to kind of develop trust with a consumer so he's like

I gotta get a celebrity to Make this a must-have purchase. So, sorry, can I ask, like, at this point, obviously there have been a number of football games in the past. There have, but we'll get into why those games stink. Oh, come on, Tecmo Super Bowl. Techno Super Bowl has not... I don't think Tecmo Super Bowl has come out yet.

In 87? Let's keep going. Okay. We'll get to it. Here we are. You're going to set the stage again. Lights down. Spotlight.

Bo Jackson. Hawkins knows he's a celebrity to get consumers to make this purchase. That's why for his dream project he wants none other

than Joe Montana. Boom. Twist. Thank you. Smart choice. But Montana has a deal with Atari, so no luck. So he goes to his second choice.

Joe Cap who can forget Cal coach Joe Cap But Joe Cap Smart was like Yeah, I want like a cut Of what you make And they're like, cool, no

So they go with their third choice John Madden That ESPN feature I mentioned Paints Madden is something like a cigar chomping goof He Basically sees The opportunity is like

Oh, you'll make a video game and it'll be a coaching tool and we can use it to simulate plays. Which is smart. Sure. I mean, so you need to know a little bit about John Madden. At this point, he is retired from the NFL, but he had a 20-year career from basically the early 60s

to the late 70s on coaching staffs in college football and the NFL, including a nine-year stint with the Oakland Raiders where he won a Super Bowl. yeah um this is from wikipedia madden's overall winning percentage including playoff games ranks second in league history he won a super bowl and never had a losing season as head coach um which to put it another way he got out while he was on top like he left really he is young he also i feel like and you might get into this had the whole like all madden thing yeah he like was known for like making his own like greatest hits team yeah i i do not get into that

okay yeah i think that was sort of perception of him after you're retired is like he was a commentator right but obviously he also like had this level of expertise to the point where like people trusted him when he said oh this player is really good yeah um which i guess gives him more value which is interesting because in 79 right after he leaves NFL he goes into color commentary which not a bad job obviously he did excellent with it but you know he his skills could have gone in a number of directions that I think would probably have at that time taken advantage of his brain better um but I don't know maybe at the same time because he uh applied his knowledge there, it, I think, helped expand

color commentary in sports. And he does that all the way until 2008, so he does it for a very long time. But weirdly, at the time of Madden's development, he's pretty well known for being the spokesperson for... It's probably some cereal.

It's always a cereal. Nope. Fresh? Wait. Lowe's. Close. Ace Hardware. Ah, see, I had a feeling it was one of those, like, Home Depot. Yeah, right before, what's his name?

I don't think so, Tim. I don't know. Tim. Al Borland. Oh, the other guy. Yeah, he becomes, like, the face of Ace Hardler for a while. All that plaid. All that plaid.

Anyway, back to development. Madden signs a contract. N.A. gets an old Oakland Raiders playbook. I'm like, I believe the early 80s. It's missing all the passing plays. Oh, no. Plenty of other stuff. And EA producer, Joe Ybarra, and developer Robin Antonic, had to find a game, essentially, in this.

And here's the tricky part. Like, oh, whatever. We got Madden. He, like, gave us a little information. We got the name. Cool. We'll just make a football game like everybody else does. It'll have, I don't know, like six or seven people on each side.

It'll auto-run plays. and Madden's like, no, if you're going to have my name on it, it has to be 11 on 11. It has to be a real version of football. And that is what differentiated it from the football games at the time. From Tecmo. I believe. I'm not an expert on Tecmo Bowl, so I don't want to commit to that. But I will say at this time, that is a huge obstacle.

Also, this is not even 88. This is, I believe, 85 is when they start. So, yeah, Tecmo Bowl couldn't have been out because. The N-E-S is just coming out in America. Mm-hmm. I don't know. No, I mean, that's definitely the way that history works. It's pretty much knowable.

I don't know when Teckmo came out. Anyway, so this is a huge, like, obstacle for computing power at the time. Oh, there's 11 characters. Well, I guess, 22 characters. Plus the coach on the sideline. Yeah. It's 24. The mascot and the, like, dogs in the stands.

Mm-hmm. It's a lot. the game is being designed for apple two there are four colors no sound um development is a total slog um i mean this is like the period of time where games were made by you know a couple of people in a few months maybe a little over a year um madden is starting to take years plural uh to the point where they're like not really sure how to just get it finished uh so this is from igin The company hired Bethesda Softworks. Yes.

The people now best known for Elder Scrolls and the modern Fallout games to finish the game. But this only got them partway to their goal. While EA used many of its designs, including contributions to their physics engine, within a year, Bethesda stopped working on Madden and, stopped when this gets familiar, sued EA. Uh-oh. Oh. Over EA's failure to publish new versions of Bethesda's. Great Iron, exclamation point football game.

Oh. And they ended up settling out of court. So even 30 years ago, Bethesda Softwarex was still very litigious. Sue and everyone. Madden puts, at this point, they're like, oh, my gosh, what are we going to do to actually get this game out the door? It is good years. I also, one second, want to just mention, like, you talked about game physics for example, like. back then it's like well did this dot touch this other dot so then the other dot stopped that

was physics so yeah way to really short sell come on the incredible hard work of the people at Bethesda software um so okay so they're like how are we going to get this game up madden puts the EA squad in contact with a football beat rider for the san francisco examiner Frank Cooney and Cooney had more nerds made a football board game called Grid Grid which is great branding Cooney numeric skill ratings um and he ends up being super helpful because they didn't have licenses they just had the Madden name so they're like oh we don't really have like football names like team names or player names so Cooney did research to assign plays and stats to teams and players

and gave them fake names where they were like clearly inspired by their real world counterparts and that's kind of the finishing touch that's the thing that's like okay now it feels like a real footballer game did they just like put like rhyming versions

of their names in there? I think it's something like Joe Montana is like right in Joe Joe Texas I'm thinking yeah like Jack Michigan or something It took me way too long to catch up to the goof

Jonathan Iowa See, I too can goof Okay, so the first game finally hits And it's 1988 And that's it And we never hear from him again The end of Madden Really good episode

That's not the end The game actually doesn't even look like Madden as we know it. It's way more sim heavy. But, you know, it's doing well. EA is doing well. So Hawkins goes to Madden and he's like, hey, you stuck

with us through thick and thin. As a solid, I will let you buy literally as much EA stock as you want when we IPO. And this is from the ESPN piece.

Madden said, hell, I'm just a football coach. I pointed with my finger all knowing and said, I give you my time. I'm not giving you my money. I showed him. From that piece, 1989 to 1999, EA's share price went from $750 to $70. Madden cites that as the dumbest thing I ever did in my life. I mean, it was a risky, as you said, this is right after the games crash. Like, it's not like it would have been a lock for him. At this point, it's 1988, though, right?

Yeah. I mean, it's still, like, games hadn't... They are not like a lock, solid investment choice. Yeah. But the game doesn't even really click. I mean, Madden is not Madden when this happens. That happens two years later with the release of the Sega Genesis port, which I'll tell you a little bit about.

It is made by a different team, Park Place Productions. it is significantly more arcady. At the exact same time, as they're producing this for the Genesis, Hawkins is like, I know what I'll do. I'll get a team to reverse engineer the Sega Genesis so we cannot pay the licensing fee.

Not great, Bob. No, that's not good. This is, basically, yeah, he tries to pull this off. and they're obviously afraid that they will get sued everybody's like hey this is not a great idea and like what are you going to save Sega normally charges 8 to 10 bucks

per game cartridge as their fee Hawkins wanted $2 per game and a cap of $2 million It's like $2 dollars and then at a certain point you just don't get more yeah uh negotiations do they're like no no that that does not work until sega suddenly realizes oh wait they figured out how to reverse engineer the genesis they could go tell other publishers yeah

so they come back and they agree and basically for the next three years of madden uh cited on that ESPNP's that deal saved EA $35 million. Wow. Yeah, which at the time is staggering. Sega at this point

has Joe Montana football ironically as its big football game for the Genesis. It's delayed for Christmas of 1990. So they're like, hey, you know what? What if we just put Joe Montana football

on Madden? Which should be, you know, like, that's what Hawkins wanted from the beginning, right? What does that even mean? Like, we would put, you have a Madden game ready. We'll put the Joe Montana football brand on Madden. Since our Joe Montana football game isn't ready. Oh, and no one cares about Madden. Yeah, we'll just call it that.

And the EA is like, nope, we're committed to this, which is the right choice because the first version of Madden on the Sega Genesis sells 400,000 units. Wow. Which is staggering at that time. It honestly ends up being a pretty big win for Sega. Even though they don't get all that money, it establishes the Genesis as the plays for a football game, which is huge at the time and helps them bite into Nintendo's share of the market.

Ironically, EA did not put Madden on the Sega Dreamcast, which would ultimately contribute to the death of Sega as a. console maker. Got them. So there's some weird symmetry there. Hey guys, pardon the interruption. Just want to say, you might have heard that our sister site Vox just launched the show on Netflix.

It's called Explained, and every episode is a 15-minute deep dive into one important topic. Okay, this week's episode is about K-pop, and I'm really upset that they did it because it means maybe we won't be able to do an episode of it. But if you're interested in K-pop or you don't know anything about K-pop, this is a very good episode for you to check out. Very easy watch. As I said, it's only 15 minutes of pop and they're produced with the high-end work that Vox puts into all their videos. But it's on Netflix, so you can just watch it from your couch. You don't have to, like, boot up anything or do anything fancy. Highly recommend it. You can check it out. Pretty much all you have to do

is search Netflix for Vox, or you can go straight to netflix.com slash explained. I got trivia for you. It's EA trivia. What other EA franchise began? on a different council before finding it success on another council. I'm sorry, say that again? What E, I can see why this might be confusing. What EIA franchise started on one console, but didn't find success until appearing on a different council?

John Madden, football. That's what we just talked about. I know. What other friends? Oh, what other? You think I'm Is I quizzing you? No, it was a trick question

I thought you were testing What I was paying attention Oh boy Eleanor did you have an answer I was going to say Oh no that's Activision Uh EA

What else does EA do Like NBA NBA jam Is that them? No That's Midway Then

Well I guess actually It does do I was wrong I was rude They have done versions of NBA jam In recent years. Have they? Thank you. Yeah, they did. They did the remake with the Monty Python heads.

It's not that though. It's need for speed. It appeared on the 3DO. And then came to the PC and was a big hit on PC. A very different game. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's the origin story of Madden. From there, it grows and grows. It goes annual in 1990 with the Genesis release. In 1993, EA acquires the rights to NFL teams and players. Wait, so before

1993, none of them had the real names? I believe that's correct, yeah. Wow. Except for John Madden. Who is not on the field. The playable John Madden. He's just commentary.

But his creepy digital visage was in the game. Yeah, yeah, yeah. His plain hating visage. Do you want to explain that to people? Because it's not in my notes, but it is funny. So he's afraid of flying

and if you're a sports commentator travel is a pretty big part of the gig so instead of flying to all the games he just took a bus everywhere. It was the John Madden bus and that thing must have been ripe is all I'm saying. The same year

Oh wait I have a quick question. Yep. Is John Madden ever playable in a Madden game? Did he ever play football? Did he play when he was younger? I could have sworn he did, but that's not a huge part of his career. That would have been the only venue in which he was playable as if it was like a retro team thing.

I mean, he's large enough to play. I just don't know if he actually did. Come on now. He's a big guy. Come on now. He's huge. He's like 6'5 and like big. Come on.

I couldn't knock him over if I tried. Come on now. Come on now. In 1993, they acquired the NFL teams and players. Come on now. And change the name from John Madden football to Madden NFL. And during this period, a variety of outside studios handle Madden. Until 1997, when EA contracts, name that studio Frush.

I know you know this one. Come on. In 1997? 1999, they contract. is it too good no it's on too okay is it the studio that's now based in tibberon yes tibberon entertainment i love that you know where they're at and you didn't know their name i don't know what the original name was i know they're i tiburon entertainment is that what they're called yeah oh they had they had like a hammerhead shark for a logo i didn't know that that's with

leather football skin okay again i don't know what the order of the episodes are so that might not make any sense. 2001 is the first year Madden doesn't appear on the cover. Up until that point it was either him or he shared it with an athlete. Yeah, the cover photographer was actually they were taking the photos on a plane

so there was really no way to do it. Madden 2009 is the last year that Madden contributes commentary to the game. Oh, man. And I'll end it on this mystery. but it's like a thing that I saw popping up in a few different pieces that I cited above and some other ones too.

Apparently, after Madden retired from doing commentary, he's become increasingly involved in the development of the game, which is the best. It's really funny. I couldn't find a ton of details about it, but I just choose to believe that every year, he just shows up more and more at the office, It's like eating just like whatever's in the snack room, like looking over people's shoulder and be like, oh, really?

That's, uh... I'm just picturing like programmers at their computers and behind them you just see like the giant Madden bus roll in. They're all like, oh, we were almost done. Not again. He's like ones and zeros. I mean, I know X's and O's. So that is my stuff. Olegia, do you want to cue the theme song for our next segment?

Oh, for a reader. memories? Yeah. Yeah, no, the other segment. Cue it up. Sorry, I wasn't sure which segment we were doing. Allegra, do you have the file? The file for the theme song? I mean, you're going to put the beat under it. Yeah, I'm going to put the beat on it. I'll send you

the file now. Okay. Okay, you're loading it up, right? I'm loading. Okay. Play the file now. Okay, this one's kind of a weird one that you sent me. Reader. Only Rader on the memories

Saturday night Adam Sandboro Musical guests This one is from At Infinity Agent I should have saved this one for last You know I'm going to come back to it Come back to it

This will get people something to look forward to This is from water At Water Bananas I don't play Madden a lot but when I do I always run the ball on the first play and score a touchdown, which my brothers are always shocked about and then proceed to be off sides the rest of the game, especially when they're kicking the extra point. I love stuff like dumb Madden strategy. I am the person who always throws the Hail Mary on the first play and usually gets intercepted in modern Madden because it doesn't work as well. This is from at the Alucinot.

Madden 94 is the first and most enduring memory I have of gaming with my father I was eight and he was able to beat me pretty easily that didn't last long and I didn't stick with the series much longer but I'll always be special for that little bubble of time I feel like and I don't know if

this is going to come up later but I feel like the there were very few Madden games where you can mess with the ref like tackle the ref yeah was it 94 or 95 where when a player got injured, an ambulance drove out onto the field. And it would like roll over other people.

Yeah, it was great. This is from at Wienerberg underscore. Good name. Wienerberg was taken. I like that Wienerberg was taken and they went with underscore. Madden was huge in my school. In seventh grade, my friend beat me like 45 to 7. He was Packers.

I was the Vikings. They live in Wisconsin, naturally. So I practiced all summer in the first week of the new year. I beat him 56 to 0, and it felt great. What are my great Madden stories I've got. Yeah, if you know Madden, I don't know again how true this is still. But like, in that early era or even into the 2000s, like if you knew the three plays that worked, there was nothing that could be done. Like, you just had no recourse.

Okay, are you ready for my favorite? Yeah. From at Infinity Agent. Once a second, I'm going to take a sip of water. So much buildup. John Madden lives in my hometown. And the only thing I knew about him as a kid was that his house was the house to go trick or treating.

Hell yes, full bars. When I played a Madden game, when I played a Madden game for the, first time it blew my young mind that the content wasn't Halloween related that's very funny man yeah that that candy stitch must be primo I mean I would hope I'm amazed that he made it there because you figure you know scheduling that bus fire October it's October you're right in the middle of the football season and here you are having to drive from one game

to your house to give out the real good candy and then back to another game. Yeah. But at least he always had uniforms for costumes to wear. He could just steal the uniforms from the games

and then wear that as a costume. I'm a football player now. I'm not a coach. Okay, let's end this. Thank you, Chris Plant. That was lovely. as usual. Thank you to everyone at home for listening to the History of Fun where we explore the hidden back stories

behind the things you love to do. As always, review us and follow us on Twitter. You know that info. I don't need to say it again, but if you haven't, do it. Anyway, we will be back next week for more History of Fun.

Thanks for listening. Goodbye. Bye. Thank you. ...theirn't... ...was... ...their... ...and...

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