Sibling Revelry with Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson - Chelsea and Shoshanna Handler

Episode Date: November 6, 2019

Kate and Oliver sit down with Chelsea Handler and her sister Shoshanna for their first-ever “Sibling Revelry” guest interview. They share funny stories from their childhood, how Shoshanna’s life changed when Chelsea came into the world, why Shoshanna reported Chelsea to the FBI, the impact of the loss of their brother Chet, and how it took some time to get to where their relationship is now. Executive Producers: Kate Hudson, Oliver Hudson, and Sim SarnaProduced by Allison BresnickEditor: Josh WindischMusic by Mark HudsonThis show is brought to you by Cloud10 and powered by Simplecast.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an IHeart podcast. September is a great time to travel, especially because it's my birthday in September, especially internationally. Because in the past, we've stayed in some pretty awesome Airbnbs in Europe. Did we've one in France, we've one in Greece,

we've actually won in Italy a couple of years ago. Anyway, it just made our trip feel extra special. So if you're heading out this month, consider hosting your home on Airbnb. With the co-host feature, you can hire someone local to help manage everything. Find a co-host at Airbnb.ca slash host.

I'm Jorge Ramos. And I'm Paola Ramos. Together we're launching The Moment, a new podcast about what it means to live through a time, as uncertain as this one. We sit down with politicians, artists, and activists to bring you death and analysis from a unique Latino perspective. The Moment is a space for the conversations

we've been having us father and daughter for years. Listen to The Moment with Jorge Ramos and Paola Ramos on the IHeartRadio app, podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Introducing IVF Disrupted, the Kind Body Story, a podcast about a company that promised to revolutionize fertility care. It grew like a tech startup. While Kind Body did help women start families, it also left behind a stream of disillusioned

and angry patients. You think you're finally like in the right hands. You're just not. Listen to IVF Disrupted, the Kind Body Story on the Iheart Radio app, Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Kate Hudson. And my name is Oliver Hudson. We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationship.

And what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling rivalry. No, no. Sibling rivalry. Don't do that with your mouth. Sibling Revelry. That's good. This is the first time we've sat together for sibling revelry and interviewed siblings.

And we did sisters for the first time. And it was. Chelsea and Shoshana. Chelsea, Handler. Handler. Were you nervous? No, because we, we, we. I know Chelsea very well, you know, and I was excited, a little nervous,

or apprehensive. Then I got here, saw Chelsea, and I was just super pumped. Yeah, I think I really excited. Not only that, but we then, it's like we walked around the house a little bit and we were chatting. We just started immediately talking about stuff and we're like, wait, wait, wait, wait, we got a hold. It was like running into the room where we're going to do the podcast so that we wouldn't, you know, we get it all on. Right.

But I don't think we could have. for anything better. That was pretty awesome. I believe tears were shed within the first minute and a half of... I cried. You did. Yeah. Well, I mean, it was, you know, look, Chelsea, it's interesting because her book that she had come out, if anybody hasn't read it, it's a must read. She really goes there about her life. You know, she goes there about the death of her brother. And we just, that's where you and I just completely lost it um well it's just i mean i can't even imagine yeah you know you have these tragedies in your family and how do you get through them and how did they inform who you are and how did that completely change chelsea's life and shoshana's life and we get into all that

stuff everyone knows who chelsea is i mean she is out there and she is honest and truthful and open and she's a celebrity nobody knows who shoshana is right and it was just really fun to see the dynamic to see the opposition of character and but see the thread of just like pure love between the two of them and to hear the stories about how it took a minute to get to a place of real love between them and that's a lesson here you know and they express that a little bit when we asked them basically not to give up because you never know when it's going to happen there's so you know it's it's one of those things where you know you you know that being our first time out she's just so available you know Chelsea's so available to share her

story and I I have so much admiration for that because I know for us we do a lot of protecting you know we protect certain things about our life and our family which makes sense because you know there's a lot of people in our family that want their privacy so it's kind of challenging for us sometimes to just come out with you know this is our family dynamic but i think that this for you and i we're both very comfortable talking about ourselves and wanting to share the dynamic so what you're saying is is that after the first year of this podcast it's just going to be you and me our entire family will have disowned us basically literally i can't wake it there'll be one time you know what someone will come up with something and mom will be like you know i don't i don't

like this right um but uh but no i think you know we always say we of course there's things for me and you you know everyone's different chelsea's like just puts it out there i i have so much respect for that i think it's really brave and um and then she's gone even deeper inside of herself and she's just still putting it out there, which is incredible. It's what we talked about with her a little bit. It's fun to watch her, honestly, go from book one to this book, and there's a progression of her life. Within all the books, even though there's comedy,

but this is the one where there's some real stuff, you know. My favorite moments, honestly, were watching Chelsea when Shoshana was talking. Because you just saw pride. and love and everything sort of shining in Chelsea's eyes. She loves her sisters so much. And she would get emotional, just listening to her speak.

And it was just really awesome. And it's a relationship that well it didn't probably always have that kind of affection. Well, let's stop talking about it. And let's listen to them. Yeah, just listen to it because at this point,

the audience might as well just we're revealing everything. Yeah, but I also want to say before we get into this that they also challenged us on our relationship, which is really, really great. We got a lot to talk about, but let's not do this right now because this is not about us. This is about Chelsea and Shoshana Handler. Enjoy.

All right. We're starting. Yeah. I think we already started. I'm excited to be here. I'm really excited to be here. I want to just jump off and say that. that I'm glad that two of you are finally doing something.

I'm glad I'm sitting next to your sister. All of her sitting next to my sister Shoshana while Kate is sitting next to Chelsea. That's right. I'm Chelsea. We're sitting around a coffee table and in my house. And there's a reason Shoshan and I are sitting together because we were the ones who disliked our younger sisters. Yeah.

The extroverted younger sisters. Yeah. I was actually, it's interesting because one of the things I read, Chelsea's new book, Life Will Be the Death of Me, which was truly an emotional experience, I have to say. I got horny. You get horny whenever you read my writing. You guys, you guys, this is a, this is a normal. Ollie and I have had a crush on each other for a long time, but at least we don't do anything about it.

You would say it was sexual tension, but it's not, there's no tension at all. It's more like, there's no tension. It's just sexual. It's just a sexual. vibration. No tension really at all. I asked Chelsea what she wanted to drink and she says, Ollie knows what I want.

He knows what I like first thing in the morning. He knows what I like first thing in the morning. What was the moment for you when you were like, you know what, I'm going to write a book that I'm actually going to like put it all out there? Well, I definitely didn't want to write another book. I've written five and I didn't want to write another one unless I had something to say, like something different to say because all my books were silly and like, Like one was about one night stands, one was about, they're all just short essays, funny stories about life, travel stories, you know.

And I just kind of got sick of putting stuff out that I wasn't immensely, uh, prepared to put out. So I wanted to be thoughtful the next time. Like I didn't want to just get a book offer and write a book to deliver a book. I wanted to write a book and go out and sell the book after it's done, not the other way around. And I didn't really even want to write a book until I started going to therapy. and when things started to really click for me, I realized, oh my God, all these doors are opening. Is this the first time you've been to therapy with Dan?

I mean, that's the first time you've been? No, I've been in therapy before. Well, you say that in the book, too. You're sort of like, you know, you've been to different therapists. Dan was the first time that you actually met someone or had a relationship with a therapist that could resonate with you. Yeah, I had gone to therapy, but never with the intention of getting real. This was about getting real.

I mean, in the beginning it wasn't. In the beginning, it was about bitching about Donald Trump winning the election. And then slowly I realized that what that represented to me was my childhood, which was unhinged when my brother died. So my anger that was directed towards this administration and what was happening politically was really about triggering what happened to me as a nine-year-old when my brother said, hey, I'm never going to leave you alone with these people, meaning my parents. And then he went off and died.

I took that as rejection. Like, you're rejecting me. You found a sister you like better and a family you like better. And I didn't have the intellectual capability at nine years old. to understand that it was an accident and he died and he didn't desert me but I've been carrying that with me

for you know 30 plus years you know so So five minutes in to the first podcast I mean what's Holly put you shit together What the fuck? It's supposed to be funny It's fucking horrible

No I just Oh god But it's just so real It's so fucking It's why we're attracted to each other Because we're both messes The thing that's going to happen is that Oliver

Usually I'm the one that cries, but now Oliver is going to end up crying in every podcast. I went to the Hoffman process and now I just cry all the time. First of all, you're our first podcast that we've done. You're our first guest on our podcast, which is like, I'm so happy about that. And it's so, the timing feels like so synchronistic because your book is about family and your siblings play such a huge part of what was the foundation of who you are and who you became and the rocks in your life. I mean, you are a family girl. And you, you really get that in this book. I mean, it's all about uncovering the relationships between all of you guys, all of the siblings. Does anyone call you Shosh? Yeah. I'm going to call you Shosh.

I have a lot of nicknames. Showtime. Showtime. Shazam herself. No, showtime. Shazam is one that she self-attributed. No. It's a perfect name for a woman on beta blockers. Showtime.

Yeah, Shana had to take a beta blocker because she's a little nervous, but she seems fine. You grew up where? New Jersey. New Jersey. And what part of New Jersey, northern Livingston? Okay. And what kind of house did you grow up in? Well, we lived in an affluent suburb and we had a, you know, a nice house, like a four-bedroom, two-story home, two-car garage.

Okay. And we lived in a nice neighborhood and we were like the Sanford and son of the neighborhood, like used cars in the driveway, for car parts in the driveway. We had a circular driveway, like an end. and my dad would double park cars all the way around that circle barely fitting them he basically sold used cars out of our home and he had he was a used car dealer with no lot

can you describe that as an end first of all that's a lowercase end okay well then I didn't mention that he was a used car dealer without a lot or like an N is a weird letter to have a driveway were they really used cars or did he like no they were used cars

like and they all had something wrong with them like one the gas gauge didn't work. The other one, the door didn't open. You know, it was a jollopy. Maybe he stole cars. Maybe he may as well he probably would have made more money. Resold them. And what about school? Did you all, you guys go all to obviously public school? Same school?

Yeah. We'd ask our dad to drop us off about like a block and a half before because the cars were so embarrassing. Just drop me off here. I'll walk the rest of the way. And my dad was always home, which was really embarrassing. Like if you had a play date after school, like, you know, like people didn't want to come to our house because it wasn't like we

were poor. I mean, we were fine but we never went hungry or anything like that but we had everything we had money struggles like you heard money being discussed all the time yeah and my dad was like in sweatpants with like slip on sneakers and a knitted sweater all the time yeah he was a hot mess and he was sitting on the couch and your mom knit those sweaters yes and probably made his shoes too for all we know I mean they were very I mean it was embarrassing non-traditional you talked about the stinky the stinky dad's stinky ugg yeah his ugs spank or no spanked hopefully they have. Did you get spanked? We got spanked once or twice.

You get spanked? Yeah. Remember the time he tried to hit us with a belt after I took a picture of him naked having sex? I did that once. She made me do it. And then he came after us. And I was like, a belt. I'm like, we've never been hit with a belt before. I'm like, get in the basement. We locked ourselves in the basement. And he didn't hit us with a belt, but he was acting like he was going to. But I was like, fuck that. And she, and so he was knocking on the basement door going, girls, you better get up here, both getting a spanking. And, and, and, and, She, Shaana was like, I'm going to go. Shana goes, we got to go, we got to go.

I'm like, I'm not making an appointment to go get the shit kicked out of me. You go, I'm down here for the night. And I slept in the basement. And you, did you go up? Yeah, I went up. I got my, what was coming to me. Oh, gosh. But, no, he was just really a character.

My father was just, I mean, he was all over the place. He was all over the place. He was really, really smart. And he went to college and he traveled all over the world. He spoke five languages. He was very bright. But he sort of. got stuck once he started having kids and he actually owned a gas station that he inherited

from his father and did very well for a long time and then it got taken from by the government from like eminent domain or whatever they were building a highway over it so after that that's when things really started to that's when my dad just kind of had a makeshift career like he's like i guess i'll sell cars out of the driveway and we're like why so he'd like put ads in the paper and you know pretend he was you know under a different name like simon or sid or sigh his name was seymour So he'd make up all these names and he'd have all these ads going and, you know, people would call. And they were usually immigrant people that you could only afford to screw over with like a car for $2,500. And then he'd like proceed to yell at a conversation tweet over here.

We're so embarrassing. He was a hustler. Did you think you got some of your hustle from them, the good part? It definitely was like, I don't, morally and ethically, I was disgusted and I was never going to ever cheat, lie or steal for money and, you know, like act that way. That, to me, was the example of what not to do. So I think it was good for me, you know, to see that reflection because I don't want to, you know, carry on like that. Yeah. I did not want to marry someone someday, just like my father.

I kind of wanted to go the opposite direction. You know, I mean, he loved us. And did you? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. How long have you married? 18 years. What do you do for a living?

I'm a registered nurse. Thank you for asking. I've been wondering what she does for a long time. Thank you. You're the director of, is that right? It's a home health agency. I do home visits, yes. Just part time.

It's so calming. I just want to like lie down in your lap. It's very calm. She's very much like my mom. I know. I want to lie in her laugh. I'm like my mom. Tell me things are going to be okay.

Yeah. She got, but she used the parts of my dad in a good way, you know. I mean, the stubbornness and the resiliency and the loud. The laugh. It's just the laughter. Sounds like your dad had a great laugh.

He did. He did. Mm. Do you wish you had more of what she got? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I wish I had more balls.

I mean, Just do you wish you had more of what she got? Do you have any like a... No. Well, because I, it's funny because I look at Kate and I'm like, God, I wish I had more of that. Oh, really? Oh, for sure. Yeah.

Yeah. Because just her balls and her fearlessness. Yeah. And Chelsea doesn't care what anyone thinks, you know, and that's such a great quality. Like, I mean, she does, but she doesn't. Right. You know, she really does say how she feels and she just lets it hang out. And like, you know, I check myself at the door.

It's totally. Totally. The way we're sitting right now with me and Chelsea on the sofa, with you two sitting across from us, we really are. As close as I can get to show, because I just want to like be near her, I think, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I said, we're better than them. Don't worry about it. How many siblings do you guys have? Six. Six. Three boys. Three boys. And then three girls were born. Right. And Chet was the oldest. Yes. And you're the youngest. So you say it in your book. Your book ends. And then in that moment, there was a dynamic before Chet passed away that was sort of what you saw as the baby as the whole dynamic, right?

But for you as the middle child, what did that look like to you? Like usually middle children have a very different psychological experience to their families. Yeah. Well, I was the baby for a while. I was the baby for five years. Okay. Here we go. Well, that's interesting, the baby becoming the middle, you know. so I was number five and I think everyone thought that that was it like you know including you yes including me and then Chelsea came along and what did dad say when he's Chelsea's the only birth that my father actually witnessed and the nurse said to him

she came out just screaming like bloody murder and I think he said like you're never going to have to worry about this one or something like that because the way that she was screaming well I almost died at birth so what does that say about you're always going to have to worry about at least that's how mom took it seriously mom still thinks I'm dying yeah right she treats me as if I'm dying

mom's still putting safety nets all around him everywhere he goes it does but you know I talk about that in the book a lot because of the birth process which is really hard for me to even say seriously because I'm very not you know I don't I LA I'm very sensitive to overindulging

in the spirituality component I know it's important and I'm getting there and I'm meditating and I'm doing all these things, but like for me to hear that somebody's going through something traumatic because of their birth made me laugh my ass off. I'm like, really? But it's true. Like after learning and educating myself,

our births do have an impact on the way we come into this world. Oh, entirely. And by the way, I did. I went to this place called the Hoffman Institute, which is a whole other conversation. Podcast episode. But it changed my entire life. And this, my birth that I never thought affected me in any way whatsoever

because how the fuck could it? But the fact that, is that I was pulled from mom and put into a bassinet in an incubator with tubes down my throat for three and a half weeks. And so the first month of my life, I had no contact, no mother contact, nothing at all. And while I put that off throughout my life after going through this process, I realized that there is some effect. Well, and it's not only you, it's the dynamic. So like the dynamic between you and mom is wrapped up intensely in that moment so that informs can you talk about this another time she triggers so many things in me this is sibling revelry i mean hello

this is what it's about i know i know so when chelsea was born i feel like i was i was like the baby i got lots of attention i was like kind of like the golden child i was a happy go lucky kid i was sweet i was cute whatever and then she was born and she was like hell on wheels. Like she was loud. She was crying all the time when she was a toddler. She'd go into these like insane tantrums where she'd spin 360 degrees while simultaneously kicking and punching and screaming, but it would last. Like she wouldn't do it like a normal kid for like 10 minutes. She could go like an hour, an hour and a half. And my parents were tired. They already had 105 kids. I was pissed. As soon as I came out, I was pissed. But was like, what the fuck? Was there

Was there like some neglect there in a way where it was like, well, fuck it. We've had a thousand children. Let's just let her do her thing. That's what happened. Yeah, some neglect. I mean, it was basically like that you're on your own. Did you just feel like completely overshadowed by that? I mean, or did you?

I think I did. I think I withdrew a little bit. And I was just like, I have no idea how to deal with this. I don't have the skill set. And I don't think my parents do either. Yeah. So, you know, I took a step back. I think I withdrew a little bit and became more quiet and a little bit.

mellow and just was like I can't deal with this. And it sounds like mom kind of just let those things happen instead of trying to sort of enforce some kind of like to notice it and connect with it and say we've got to work on this. Sounds like mom Yeah. I mean I don't think they ever experienced

a personality in the five previous. They just never had to deal with that. I mean she had so much energy and she was so loud. Where did that come from though? Probably being bored it sounds like like you're loudness. You were just saying, like, why am I here again?

Is there genetics involved? Is there anyone in your family? If I had to take a guess, I mean, honestly, I would say that she wasn't cut out to be a child. Like, she was born, rearing to go. I'm not dissimilar. You know, like she was ready to be independent. But you still have emotional baby fat. Literally.

Like all over my stomach. Like it. Emotional baby fat. I like it. All over my stomach. Well, here's the thing about Kate. Kate came out, and she came out, like, Chelsea but performing and I it drove me fucking crazy and I get that I didn't necessarily

withdraw but I got angry and so I tripped her I hit her I you know it's sad because all Kate wanted really was him to love me yeah she wanted a man to love her I know it wasn't a man but she wanted a male to love her because she had no real connection to men all he was the only guy in my life that was there I had an emotional breakdown over her her because I'm like, I am who she needed at that time. What is the Hoffman process again? He abandoned me. He neglected and abandoned me.

The Hoffman process started in the 50s, this guy Bob Hoffman, and it's basically the idea is that you have developed negative love patterns from zero to seven. In order to survive as children, its infants, we need love, whether it's positive or negative. So now we have taken on these negative love patterns from our parents, and they're in our DNA. They're in our being. You know, we have adopted them. And this process is a true process because you cannot do one tiny step without the other. And you're with 38 people, and you go through an experience, a true catharsis, or at least I did.

And you're dealing with all kinds of therapy. I mean, basically, the foundation is CBT. It's cognitive behavioral therapy, but you're getting into primal stuff. I mean, you're getting into some real shit. And for me, the biggest thing was surrendering, not thinking I was looking stupid being a pillow. I had to really let go of my own shit to actually have this experience. And I truly did. I had breakdowns like I've never had before.

Is this like a one-on-one type of thing? No, you're with a group of people, which is the beautiful part of it. Because you're experiencing these emotions and this catharsis with people. So you become a family. And I can honestly say that I've never experienced accepting love in my life like I did at the end of this. And also giving love without fear, without worry that someone's going to leave me. You know, my relationship with my wife changed dramatically. I was finally able to tell her and show her how much she means to me without worrying about it.

One of the things that I thought, and I really want to talk about, is your brother and your guys' experience. you don't mind talking about it, when he passed away. I mean, in your book, you talk about that a lot. I don't want to give too much away from the book because it really is wonderful. But you said in the book that you didn't remember her being there, right, that night. Yeah. Even though you were there. I was actually out babysitting. And then you came home. We were in Martha's Vineyard and I was out and I came home to find out from my older sister who was with my mom and Chelsea. Yeah. So, yeah, I wasn't there.

You weren't there. But then you said you didn't even remember. No. Was that your older sister? Well, Simone and I had come home. Shoshana, who's here, was out babysitting. So we came home. My mom was at the top of the stairs and just looked like she had been attacked, you know.

And she just said, your brother, you know, she came to the top of stairs. And my sister, I remember we had Dairy Queen in our hands. She had just taken me out to ice cream and she was heading back out because she was older. And she was going out with her friends. And they would take me out for ice cream and then drop me off and go out. and I hated that, you know, and so when I saw my mom at the top of the stairs, I remember thinking, oh, someone's not going to be able to go out if mom's crying like this. Like that was my first instinct was like, cool, Simone's going to stay home with me. My mom's crying, great. Like, it was that fast. You know, your thoughts moved so quickly in all these different directions when something like that happens. And then I knew, no, we're not, this isn't going to be good. This is going to be bad? This is look at her face. She looked so disheveled and contorted. And it was just not my mom. And I remember thinking, is her face ever going to be the same again? And she just said your brother's dead and we both knew who it was because he was away on a trip and I just was like oh this now like after all of this you're fucking losers can't even protect your own

children like I had so much anger that my parents let my brother die and that he went and let himself die like I was so angry in that moment that I just couldn't I couldn't articulate it and I couldn't say I was so pissed at the world like how does this fucking happen how could you let this happen to me like it was all about the effect it had on me i didn't think about my mother's pain or my sister's pain i was like oh my life is over and so you become you know when you realize that you don't have the vocabulary to discuss these things and and you're so little she was only nine you wrap yourself up in this emotional you know blanket that is like i don't want to ever discuss this with anyone again because everyone here is falling apart

And the more I looked around and saw my mom fall apart, my father fell apart, he retreated and was never the same. So I didn't remember Shoshana there because it's a moment of shock. It's like we always confuse those moments, you know, and I learned that also, that you remember memories. We all remember things differently. We don't know if somebody was at the top of the stairs or the bottom of the stairs, you know, when you were told the news. So it was like, it was a, it was sad in a way because I didn't have any comfort. for her or for anyone in my family because I only was trying to take care of myself. Which is natural, though. Right. So. What were you? Were you there at the house?

Well, I had come home and my sister told me. After babysitting. My older sister, Simone, and I thought Simone said she went outside and mom told you because she didn't want to hear the news twice. That's what Simone told me. Oh, really? I mean, it's actually kind of foggy. I don't remember specifically who told me. I thought it was Simone, but I could be wrong. But I just remember just this dark, dark time and haze over us and I also was just thinking of myself and not really you know worried about Chelsea or worried about someone I was worried about my parents I was like devastated for the pain that they were in and just in shock myself and I you know I don't think Chelsea was thinking about me and I was thinking about her we were just like was there a time when the other siblings sort of got

together I know you guys were young but and like there was like a moment of getting together to talk about it or well we did a few days later we went to to visit but the boy that he went with on this trip, my brother fell in the Teton's, and he was with two other good friends from high school, and he was 22, and he just tripped on a route, and he was at a very high elevation, and he just fell, and he died instantly.

But we all knew the boy that he was with, and of course my father just... My father proceeded to sue the family, run them out of town, like it was awful, because he wanted to blame someone, which every parent obviously does. So he wanted somebody to be culpable, and he sued them and sued them.

And, of course, lost. He sued them for negligence because they had hiked before and they had somehow separated from my brother and my brother had never hiked. And so he was a beginner. And my dad wanted to blame them for not looking after him more, which was a long grasp.

But, you know, this was his best friend. He just lost his best friend. And now our family is suing him. So we had to like, you know, you guys had to testify in court, right? Yeah, that was horrendous. Did he ever talk with him after that again? of you, is he, where is he, have you ever? Yeah, we, well, we went over a few days later

before all the lawsuits and all that. But I mean, after all of that, like now as adults, have you ever reached out? He moved to Seattle and he makes boats for a living and he said he'll never go on vacation with another person again in his life. Really? He said he's never been away with anybody, right? Isn't that what he said when he saw my brother Glenn? My brother Glenn went out to visit him and had a really nice talk with him and, you know, the impact that it's had on his life versus our life and um that's the thing is we forget how other how many other people get affected by these things well what's what you're saying when you're not thinking about everyone else because you you're trying to self-sues and trying to figure out how it affects you and your life and

your dynamic and then all of a sudden you have to like wake up from that and like you said like everyone wants to blame someone for it's like almost like inflicting pain on on yourself at the end the day like I remember someone saying that the only way to have peace is to forgive you know and and that they almost wanted to change you know international peace day to international forgiveness day because people don't quite understand that in order to liberate yourself from anything you have to be you have forgiveness has to be such a huge part yeah my father completely got stuck in his anger and grief and for years that was his focus just to you know pursue this lawsuit and and, you know, civilly, and, you know, it went on for a long time.

And he was totally consumed with that. Spent all his money on this. Yeah. And, like, you know, we didn't have a lot of money to begin with. So it was a hot mask. Did you feel like you lost him as a father? Yeah, he retreated for sure. Like, I, you know, I talk about that too because, like, for me, you know, I was this

youngest. I was blonde. I was bouncy. I was this focus of everyone's attention, including my father's. I felt like I was the center of everyone's world in my life, in my family until then. So my brother died who was basically like a father figure too because my parents were older. So like my brothers and sisters took care of me. My parents were the like figureheads. But I was always with my brothers. They would take me to parties when I was like five, six, you know, I would come out with

them and just like hung out with them all the time. I loved it. And then after when your dad sort of retreated, Glenn and Simone sort of became like parental figures. Wow. Right. Yeah. Yeah. They were parental figures. They were at Emory University together. And Simone even I remember saying she went to Glenn's fraternity. He was the president of his fraternity. She's the president of TriDelt at Emory. And she went over there and she's like, hey, I'm having a really hard time with this with Chet. Like, what do we do? I can't, I can't focus. I can't work. And he was like, just go, he's dead and you need to deal with it. Move on. Just get on with your life. My brother did that to my sister. And my sister was like, none of us had anybody to talk to. Glenn wasn't dealing with it. He was doing what I was doing,

which was like, suck it up, move forward. Don't talk about it ever again. So I think for me, the most important experience was I had a really hard time digging into therapy because I thought it was narcissistic and I thought it was navel gazing and I thought, oh, I have shows name, books and my whole career is about me, Chelsea, you know, and I'm annoyed with myself at this point. So I don't want to go and spend more time talking about myself. But the lesson I learned that you are no use of use to anyone until you clean out your own injuries. Yeah. It's so great. And so true. And by the way, there's timing. There's a timing situation. when it comes to this stuff. Now's the perfect time for this to happen to you or to you or to me. Whenever the timing is, and I found mine just recently, I'm 42. And so we just don't know when that time is going to happen. We have to be open to it. And it sounds like you were open to this and you've, the door was cracked and you step through it. Yeah. There's a lot of people who don't step through, you know? Well, I think you have to also look for the door. You know what I mean?

And if you, and yeah, you can't look back and say, I wish I had had this awakening earlier. there's a reason people have awakenings when they're when they turn 40 like you know I started this book when I was 42 I'm 44 now and there's a reason that I you wake up at that age yeah because it's the time to wake up yeah you know and so you can't judge yourself for not doing it sooner or for not you just have to be so excited that you did it that you know something different now and you can identify what your issues are you know for me to not be reactive to not tell people what I think every single fucking time I want to I had never even known that was an option Like, I didn't know you didn't have to talk all the time and insert yourself. Have you guys had together as the five of you a moment where you've been able to connect together as adults in a way where you can acknowledge all of these things with each other? Well, I feel like his death gave us a gift and it didn't happen right away. It evolved. But we all just love each other so much. and we are really, really close.

And we just, like, love being together. I mean, Chelsea takes us on these amazing trips. We all have the best time. And we talk about stuff once in a while, and we cry about my mom and my brother and not my dad yet, but that'll come. We've had so many deaths. She calls me to tell me while I was writing this book.

Everyone kept dying. My dogs were dying. Our cousin died tragically. Our father died last year. And so I was campaigning in Orange County somewhere, and I get this call. And Sean is, like, crying. Like she doesn't say anything.

I immediately hear her crying. I'm like, what, what, what? You know, because once you have one death in your family, you're like, oh, and I hate these calls. And my mother died. We were all together for that. And in a way, it was like, I think, are my brother's death came full circle with my mom's death because we were able to say goodbye to her and be there and sleep in the bed with

her and be in hospice for her, you know. But for. Can't even think about it. I can't even think about it. Yeah. No, they're going to be fine for, and you've got some years left. But hold on, but about the dad, like, why haven't, there been no morning process? Well, no, my dad has been dead for a long time mentally.

Like, he just was an asshole. And as soon as my mom died, it became more and more apparent what an asshole he was. And yes, we love him. He's our dad, but he's a bit of a sheister. He lied. He was a used car dealer. Like, he's not the most upstanding guy. We found out we had a brother after he died or not after he died.

After my mom died, we're like, of course we do. Well, we found out we found out we have a brother too. I know, I know. That's why I brought it up. We all found, everyone in this room found out they had a brother. a brother. So Shauna calls me and she's crying and I go, hey, what is it? And she goes, oh, okay, dad, I think, I forget what you said.

You said, dad, he's, he didn't make it or he passed away. They just called me. He passed away. And I said, why are you crying? Because we were so ready for it. It's like the longest lead you could have in a facility for five years. He's basically like sedentary. And the last couple times we saw him, he was out.

Yeah. And I go, why are you crying? She goes, I don't know. I didn't think I'd be crying either. And then we got off the phone and I was like with my, I was with my driver, Billy. And I told Billy and he's like, oh, child, do you want to pull over? I go, no, I'm kind of relieved that it's over. Like, it wasn't a quality of life.

Somebody's in an old age home. Yeah. That's not fair to keep somebody alive like that. And so he died peacefully and whatever. Like, I was fine with it. And I called her back like 20 minutes later. I'm like, are you still upset? She's like, no, I'm fine now.

But we did have a beautiful funeral for him. That was unexpected. We kept it small because he didn't have any friends left. He had some family of ours. The way you write about this in your book is really, it's a really emotional part of the book because I think it would be very relatable for people who've had that experience where you go and all of a sudden you hear these stories about your father that you've never heard before.

And seeing him from different perspectives. And appreciating the family component. You know, all of these cousins of his and relatives of ours that did show up to that funeral on this really dreary New Jersey day. I was even contemplating not going. Like there was a part of me that was like, do I really need to go? And then my brother was like, yes, you do. It's your father's funeral. But that was Glenn.

Roy, where's Roy? Smoking pot? He left. He's in Palau, but he came back for the funeral too. Yeah. We all went back. In the book, she talks about what, like, what happened after Chedda. died but then like roy left smoking pot somewhere yeah he's been he smoked a lot of pot and he's

really never recovered but um from pot well he started at 12 he started too early oh he shouldn't wait for his brain don't develop he didn't know dance seagull and so wait until 15 or 18 years old but the other thing is that's what i did no 21 that's what we tell teenagers it was yeah 21 right drinking pot i turned out fine did you anyway i think fineish it was just a nice reminder of what is important in the world and in your life and that showing up for a funeral matters and it's dignified and it makes you realize it's a celebration of somebody's life

and we should always be there for each other and, you know, being with my family this year at a couple of funerals, I was like, oh, okay, this is why, you know, this is what it's all about. When I was 15, my mom sent me on an airplane to... Oh my God. This is crazy. in her uncle Deg died

and she couldn't make the funeral so she sent me Mom had like 80s mom had like ADR and I remember She sent you to represent the family She sent me to represent the family To read a speech

To read a speech And now I think about it I'm like I was writer's age I mean that's crazy But I went And I went to Arkansas And I submit all of my family that I'd never known.

And I have to give this speech. And that was really my second funeral experience, other than Grams. But yeah, that's our family. Did you guys forgive? She's like, I got a gig. I got to go. No, yeah. Do you have forgiveness for your dad?

I mean, do you know, like, after he died or is there a sort of a compassion? I have more compassion. I have more empathy. I realized I had a, you know, I didn't have a lot of empathy when I talked to Dan about what my issue. are and why I'm so reactive and why I don't, you know, think about people's plights as much as I think about why they're not acting the way I'm acting. Well, what was his, what was his dad? What was your grandfather like? What was his family life like, his parents? Yeah, right, right. And that wasn't good.

Right. So, you know, so it's all, of course, everyone has their story. And I have to say after reading your book, I'm going to step in on this because from a psychological point of view, you would say that, you know, you have to forgive your father because you have so. much of your father if you don't forgive him then you can't forgive yourself wow that's interesting yeah i never really thought about that that is at the end of the book you do say that he didn't have empathy that you that that was something well they also have their own story and this is what i was talking about with even with our father my dad's dad in the middle of the night when my dad was five years old just bailed on his entire family and

he didn't they didn't see him again until they were like in their 20s so my dad was just given a bad deal right and so he didn't have the tools like i was fortunate enough to have the tools to try to learn about myself and figure it out because i didn't want to repeat the same shit he was just you know living life in oregon so he he had no chance really with his kids and so when i really think about that i develop this pure sense of compassion for him and forgiveness because it's in a sense it's not his fault yeah yes i mean he's his own man and he's his his own man and he's his free will, but he didn't have the capacity or the tools to fix himself before he had children himself. But wait a minute, did you guys, you guys just, the reconciliation was later in life,

though, right? I mean, when did this happen? We did not get along for a long time. She was, she told on me all the time, and I wanted her to get to virginize and start smoking. You know what I mean? You said that Chelsea had such a consuming presence and it felt like being hit by a train. Is that right? Absolutely. Right. Okay. So that kind of sums it up.

But when did it get good? But when did it get good? But when did it get good? When did the love start? How old were you? After the DWI, right? I got a DUI when I was 21 and I had her ID, a fake ID. I was using her fake ID because my mom gave me her ID so that I could go drinking.

So she was driving around with her picture with my name and racking up speeding tickets. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. You're terrible. So then there was a warrant out for my arrest. No. I got one DUI. That was a mistake.

A warrant for your arrest. Yeah. I didn't do anything. It was her. Well, but you had like reporting me to the FBI or some department of me. Yeah, I had to try to clean it up. Like it was so ridiculous. They're like, oh, you're actually on a list of like, you know, it wasn't America's most wanted.

But it was something like, close. It was something close. And I was like, I don't think I am on that list. And they're like, yes, your sister's reported you for, you know, because you obtaining her identity and impersonating somebody is a federal offense. And even though I was trying to get into bars, that's what I was doing. So I had to go to jail, get booked, and then I didn't speak to her. Even my parents got mad at her because they knew I was right. And my mother is the one that provided her with the birth certificate. Oh my God. She said, Mom, I really need this for, you know, fake ID. She's like, okay, honey,

here you go. And then, you know, the ball started rolling. My mom just wanted me to go and do my thing because she wanted me to calm down. And she knew I had to get it out of my system that I had to go party. I had to go sleep around and I had to have fun. I didn't think she knew it was going to last as long as it did. Do you guys still fight? Not lately. I mean, no one in our family really fights about anything. Well, Ollie, you'll like this. Shosh says that every time sheared Chelsea's name it reminded her of seafood stew and made her cry all the time. So just hearing Chelsea made you cry. Where are you getting these quotes from her? We got a little research guru over here we had we had a masking tape down the middle of our bedroom we had to share a bedroom so we put tape down

the middle and one side was hers and one side was blind right but then one person had the door and couldn't get out because they're on her side so she could get out so I'd have to ask her to leave the room yeah she would have to ask permission this isn't gonna fucking like work for me that's so funny god let's see we had some questions here um you never agreed on anything true yeah she would come home from a party and be like, we'd be on Martha's Vineyard, that was our summer house. She'd come home and be like, I, there was, you know, into a bonfire tonight. I'm like, did you smoke some pot? She's like, no, I'm not doing that.

I don't want to do any of that. I'm like, oh, my God, why not? Do it. You've got everything. The world is at your fingertips. Why are you squandering these opportunities? Because I was like, you know, eight ready to fucking rumble. I'm like, I want to go to a bonfire.

Yeah. I was kind of like that, too. How did you two get to reconcile your relationship? I'm still working on it. Oh, I think this podcast is going to be the answer. Honestly, Oliver was, okay, in a nutshell. After college. In a nutshell, all I wanted was Oliver's attention.

I wanted to hang out with him. I was like, he used to call me doorknob queen because I'd hang on his doorknob, and he would never let me in the room. I mean, shut his door on my face all the time. What's the age difference? Two and a half years. And then Oliver, I mean, he would leave me at school. When he was supposed to take me home, he would just leave.

And I'd have to, like, call home from the pay phone and be like, Oliver left and can someone come pick me up? And our parents weren't really like the school drop-off pickup kind of parents. And so, um, so it was like that. I mean, one time I remember it was pouring rain at school and Oliver was in his like little weird Nissan. What was it? What was your car?

Honda prelude with blue leather. Prelude, that's right. And he was in his prelude. And I like knocked on it. And I was like, rain was just like pouring on me. And I'm like, Ollie. And he was like, not going to do it. Not going to do it.

And he would not let me in the car. And I was just soaking wet. So it was kind of like that. But it's interesting because I have no recollection of any of these things. I know. Isn't that sad that it made such an impression on her and you don't even remember? And I was just absolutely nothing. And then he went to.

college and it was the night before he was leaving for boulder and i went into his room and we sobbed that was and then it was never it was never like that after that i think our relationship is always evolving as it all relationships do but i think as we get older it gets deeper and deeper i think we're much more open and honest with each other able to tell each other things once we have kids too things change a lot you know because i trust her with my children's lives as she vice versa. Well, and we have very different parenting styles. Totally, totally different. But we accept them. I mean, I accept the way she does thing and she does, you know, me. Do you have kids? I do. I have a 10-year-old son and a 14-year-old daughter.

And a 14-year-old daughter. And I have Bert and Bernice. And do you ever feel judgmental about how she raises her kids? Yeah. Even though you don't have, you don't have children yourself. Yeah, but not to a degree where I would be like, this is what you need to do. I mean, I have a temper. so if something's like like well you went to glens house and like you basically confiscated all the video games in the house yeah my brother's kids were playing all these really gross you're like you can't play that that's too violent and i just went i feel the same way about oliver's house i mean that's we're

dealing with things like that's true yeah but for her kids no i mean i i'm she has a daughter who's incredible we don't know how she's a member of our family but uh i don't i mean she is she and i are totally different. And the thing, you know, the ayahuasca and what my experience with ayahuasca was understanding and accepting that people are different from you and that does not deserve your judgment. So my work is always like, don't judge somebody because they're doing something. They don't have the same thoughts, processes that you do, whatever. So the only things that annoy me about her are the things that annoy me about my childhood, which was stuff that's, if it's disorganized, if there's not fresh toilet paper, everything that represents unstated, like,

instability. Like growing up in our house when I didn't see toilet paper on the roll in the bathroom, it made me crazy. I was like, this is disorganized. Other people have toilet. It was a mess. So whenever I see Sean had a little of that left over and I obviously have a place with people working and cleaning all day. So I don't have toilet paper empty toilet paper rolls. Sometimes on the weekends. But when I see that, I get a little triggered. But I realize, wait, that's not. Has there ever been a part of you ever in your life where you were like, I maybe want children. No.

Not even one, not even an inkling. I mean, sometimes I think, oh, this is, I get why people would do it. Right. But I don't want the responsibility. I just don't think that's going to be the best use of my skill set. Do you ever look at her life and you're like, God, I'm envious of your freedom? The freedom, definitely. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, she just can pick up and go anytime she wants. Where are you not envious of her life? Great question. Oliver. Look at you hitting your stride. I mean, I'm just. Where you're like, oh, thank God.

God, I don't have that. I mean, I couldn't handle what she does. I mean, it's just not me. I'm quiet. I'm mellow. I'm, like, totally low-key. Chelsea says you're quiet, funny. Yeah.

So, I mean, like all that attention, it's not for me. And, you know, like, she handles it so well. But, you know, I know that I wouldn't really enjoy that. And I don't know. I guess that's it. Do you think that's a function of when Chelsea came into the world that maybe if she didn't? come into the world.

I do wonder. That's a good question. Who would you have been if Chelsea was not born? Would you have been a different human being? I mean, who knows? Maybe. I bet you probably would have been a little bit more outgoing. Outspoken. They say that the youngest children are normally

more extroverted. The babies are usually more extroverted. I mean, that's a statistic, I think. Well, I mean, I essentially I'm... Those books, the birth order and a sibling effect, it's all like one, two, three, and then it repeats the cycle. Yeah, I was, I was actually a little intimidated. And even with a five-year age

difference, I was a little on naive side. And she was, like, advanced because all her siblings were older. She hung out with my older brothers and sisters a lot. So she picked up things really quickly. She was this fast talker and just, like, got it. And like, it seems like she was, even though we didn't live in the city or anything, she was sort of like street savvy without ever having experienced it. And the whole time, you're like, just shut the fuck up. Yeah. And she talks like, it's always so loud, just take it down. Please stop doing your thing.

Basically how every grown man feels about me. Every grown man in my own age, I should say. Clarify. Oldies love me. Well, I mean, I take credit for Kate's success. I know you do. Because without me, she wouldn't have the fire and the drive to prove anything. And so because I fucked with her so much and she just disliked me and she thought that...

I didn't ever dislike you. Well, she thought that she needed... to be seen and so the way she needed to be seen was through work and success and self-sufficiency and power do it myself yeah watch this so you're welcome but it's nice to recognize that like you know when you're a little kid and you feel that somebody's invidious of you like shoshana was jealous of of the attention probably right is that right like as a child that i got yeah if you could only have the vocabulary to understand. Like when you hear jealousy as a kid, it doesn't mean anything to you. Like my mom would be like, oh, she's jealous or the girls at school that would be mean.

They're jealous. I'm like, I don't care if they're jealous. It feels like shit. It doesn't feel good. I had that. I had that a lot. Like for me, you know, one of the things I recognize through my work with Dan and through like my ayahuasca experience is like you have to have empathy for people like in that position. Like that they're obviously not happy with your presence. So instead of making them angrier you know what i mean like you you could but we don't know that when we're kids we just all act it out and i think it's valuable to act it out because then we can come together and celebrate the unionizing of a you know when we come together as older siblings you're like this is incredible like oh this is what it's about it's so fun being older siblings now by the way

with me and you and boston and white it's just a fucking blast it's so fun it's so unionizing right there but you it's a weird choice i meant to i know sorry I was like, why are you looking at me like that? I'm like, what did I say? You're forming a union, okay, guys? Let's talk about closeness. So you're really close with Glenn, but it sounds like you're really close with Roy. Yeah.

I mean, I haven't seen him in a long time because he's so far away. So, I mean, he comes home for, he's in Palau. But you live together? We lived together for like five years. And yeah. Yeah. So do you find that you're more connected, like, closer to other siblings? Yeah, I live with Roy for a while.

Roy kind of moved out to L.A., and that was kind of, of a mistake. I mean, we kind of, you know, he wanted to, like, have his own TV show. And I was like, well, that's not really how it works. You don't just get a TV show because I have one. So it kind of became that dynamic. And I'm like, Kate, almost famous too. I'm like, you can be on my TV show, but I don't think I can get you your own TV show, especially since you shake when you're on camera. Like, he's so nervous. You know, I'm like, it's not a match. Anyway, he moved here for a while. That was kind of a disaster because, you know, it was a lot of girlfriends around, a lot of wrong people, that kind of thing.

He moved to plow. He's really happy now, but they have always had a tighter relationship. And I've been, well, you're close with Glenn, too. We're all very close, I think. I mean, it's just, I wouldn't say, like, anybody's, like, attached to the hip. But do you notice that it goes in cycles? Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, that's what I think.

That's how I feel about our sibling dynamic. It's like all over and I'll be really close. And then all of a sudden it'll be like, Boston and I will be spending a lot of time together. And I'll be like, oh, he might be my new thing. Yeah, right. And then it's like, Wyatt. Then I'll pay it's time with Wyatt all the time. I'm like, wait, I don't know.

Wyatt, Wyatt's coming up a close second. Well, whoever's spent the most time with her recently is on the shit list. That's a pretty good marker because she gets sick of people. So like. Are you doing better? I mean, is that something you want to try to fix? Well, I'm just trying to make smarter decisions about who I spend time with because I know my personality more now. Yes, and I'm much more open-minded, but I know I get irritated when people are like, you know, like, for instance, this weekend I went away to Sun Valley Film Festival.

I was on this panel talking about my book and I was like, oh, perfect excuse to go skiing. And I brought my assistant who I never just travel alone with, but I'm just, skiing is so important to me right now. I love it so much and I just want to ski and I get a ski guide wherever I go and I have him take me around the mountain. And I took him and my best friend Mary McCormick was like, he's gay. And so yes, I did sleep with him. he she was like be careful you get annoyed with people and she goes you don't want to get annoyed with brandon because brandon's been my assistant for three years he's amazing and she's like don't cross the boundary and we cross the boundary and we're thrilled he's my gay husband now I love him he's more compatible

than half of my girlfriend so I'd rather just go away with my assistant and finally just you know have a happy vacation but I make smarter decisions now about who I'm going to spend my time with when I'm away rather than just what about coming to Aspen with our family how do you feel about that I love coming to Austin with your family. I've proven myself already. But as you've gotten older, the threshold is higher. Like 10 years ago, you got annoyed, you know, in half an hour. And now that you're older and more mature and I've gone through all this therapy,

I think, like, you can tolerate more. You still get annoyed. But it takes longer to get that time. I don't react. I just remove myself. Like, I will go meditate in my room. Like, a sentence I thought I'd never say out loud. You did it.

I literally, if I start to get irritated or if I get annoyed with somebody, I'm like, I go and take a time out. And I'm like, listen, get yourself together. You like this person. You invited them on vacation. Don't get annoyed with that. And you guys do family vacations. Yes.

So here's, I'm going to just put myself, I'm going to project into this. For me, I love family vacations, but something will happen at some point and the old family dynamic comes back. There's always going to be old stuff that comes up because we are families and there is a bunch of old stuff. Just because you've changed your or done the work on you doesn't mean everybody else. change but it's your reaction to that old dynamic that is different like your reaction is different even though and sometimes when you have the same reaction you feel like oh i i know better than to have this kind of reaction or i'm not going to deal with this shit but i believe that the baby steps we take to get to places are the steps of growth and i know you do too but like just because you

you know had that reaction say on your last vacation or when you went to greece last summer or whatever it was, like knowing and identifying it is halfway over getting over it and not letting it affect you. I would argue. I think. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And also just recognizing that it still exists. But you're cooler now. So it doesn't matter as much. Right. Right. Like I always just try to remind myself, be cool. Like just be cool because that's what you really care about the most is just not being, I don't want to look not cool. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. So be cool. about everything you don't want to look not cool like i don't want to go i don't want to freak out and scream and yell and have a tantrum that's not cool yeah and you're when we were having our

little trip together you you're right like you there's certain things you were like we're not in in certain family situations with our family was like we're not going to get into politics that's just something totally and you were great at that whereas i'm assuming at one point you would have with pa oh you guys would have you know and by that time i'd smoke so much weed it didn't no matter what he was talking about. So I just had to set myself up for success. I think I fell asleep on the couch the first night. No, and then you lost your phone for 100 hours.

Oh, yeah. That's because I was so stoned. I couldn't find my phone for three days. Oh, my God. In our family, it was just I was the only girl with three boys. Never had that sister, which as I got older than my relationships with my girlfriends became my sisters. But I would like to know if that feels different than your relationship.

with your brothers and what exactly that is like for you guys i think so the sister thing is big and it's like i mean i know i always think that about you too i'm like oh god you know you don't have the sister and so but if you have a really good friend you do like it's just like that like it's just they're not related to you yeah not really though but there no because i mean yes and no i guess i think the thing about i feel very strongly that like you you like these people are never ever going to hurt you. You know what I mean? And your friends, like, you know that about your brothers, but your brothers can emotionally hurt you. Your sisters are careful emotionally with each other. You know what I mean? Like, you understand each other's things. And there's something that sets you up

for success with other women when you have sisters, you know? I mean, you don't have that issue because you have a whole gaggle of girlfriends too, Kate. But like, a sister for me is every, it is the root of who I am, is being a sister. Because my brother is never going to, I'm never going to call him when something doesn't go well or my heart is broken. It's never going to be the one. You know what I mean? I'm going to call Simone or Shoshana. Maybe I do have a sisterly relationship. You're more of a sister probably than most women, Ollie. I mean, my first heartbreak held me. I was, I was, I was sobing. And I remember I was in my bed and I was like, oh, you know, that like audible sob. And Oliver came in and just like literally held me while I

saw it. Oh, see, I don't think our brothers are not really in touch with their feminine Oh, they're not? Very feminine in that time. No, that's sweet. Yeah, he's very balanced. I am. So he filled in where a sister would have. But still.

Still, it's still not. But for the record, I'm pretty masculine too, just for the podcast. If anyone's listening. If anyone's listening, like I'm very masculine. Do we snuggle? No. No, no. As adults?

That would be weird. That would be so weird. That's the thing when your sisters, you can cuddle as adults. When you're with brothers, you can't cuddle as adults. Do you guys cuddle? Yeah, we get it to bed at night She got into my bed last night We talked before we go to bed

And then we both She went into the guest room And I fell asleep in my own bed Yeah, and this morning She stuck her boobs in my face Yeah I cuddle with my mom Yeah, because girls can cuddle

Yeah Yeah, so sisters a different dynamic But it sounds like Ollie's really filling it You know, filling in But I have, I mean There's intimacy issues for sure Like even with my mom and Kate Being able to sort of express myself

And being able to love them Like I know I should difficult for me. It was better now. You know, it's interesting that you say that. I was just with a friend yesterday was telling me a story about a mutual friend of ours

and his wife is like, you know, he's madly in love with his wife. He loves his kids. He does everything for them. His career is completely about them to provide for them because he had a terrible childhood. He was not provided for.

His father was deadbeat, blah, blah, blah. But while doing that, he's lost the plot because he's never there. So he's working all the time to create opportunities for his family, but he's not present ever. But he doesn't have, he didn't, he thought that

was the way to express love. And his wife is like, no, I need you at home with the kids to express your love. You have to be part of this family. I don't care how much money you make. If you're away all the time, you're not around. And I think that's what everybody wants is a presence, somebody that looks you in the eye and says, I love you. I'm not going anywhere and I'm here with all of it. And so we all want that. And it's not a week to admit that we want that. It's strength to admit that. There's so much power in self-love by the way because there's you can conquer anything that's what it feels like it's true well watching watching your experience which you didn't have one at least in the documentary the first time you did it the second night the second night was more of a trip right right right right

but your friend who went in there and was in a bathroom like i just i love my son so much i mean like you can you can feel you would have an intense oh i would lose my mom Because you're so overcome with love for someone, and for someone, for you guys, it's going to be one of your kids or it's going to be your spouse. For me, it was her, which was a surprise. But, like, I was overcome with, like, love and affection and understanding. So was that a pivotal moment, actually, in sort of securing this, not securing, but really elevating your relationship as sisters after ayahuasca? Yeah, I think so, but I didn't tell her about my experience. I just filmed the documentary for Netflix and then it was on.

she saw it and she was like oh now we know why you changed for telling you did you react to that moment did you have any emotion behind it where you're just like oh that's interesting no I was fascinated I wish she had told me but I mean she saved it for later and then you know after that I think like things definitely changed for us and you know she was a little bit more patient a little bit more understanding with me and just letting me be me and being okay with it because we were so different you know I mean if she met me on the street and I was a stranger you know we probably wouldn't be friends but we're sisters and you know we've been through so much together we have like so much history and such a big

foundation and we've gone through so much and we've grown so much and like it's better than ever I mean it's just what would you say if you could get I know I like I like I'm much I love you guys so much you guys are fucking awesome it's like so sweet I know That's why I love your family so much, you guys, because I'm from a big family. So I'm always like, I'm always grabbing on to other families out here because I'm like, let me be part of this. I like a dynamic. I think the thing that's pulling all over and I to do this is to share it with other people who don't have that in them, that whatever their family dynamic was that kind of spread everything apart, whether it be their fear or their anger or the anagram, you know, it's like there's a way to be able to get it on track, you know. and like if you were to give advice to sisters that didn't get along, what would be your advice?

I mean, we've had really low lows and, you know, we went like for like probably two years with the whole DWI and the warrant for my arrest thing was like a really low point and some other incidents that we won't get into right now. Oh, really? There's no other incidents. But it's, it don't give up. I mean, it's worth it. It's so worth it. And I don't think, I mean, unless somebody kills somebody else, you. got to find a way to work past it because it's true like you only get one this brother or this

sister like that's it like you know the reward is if if you can work it out the reward is so great that it's worth the toil and like the blood sweat and tears it may or may not take to get there because usually what we're all dealing with is being stubborn and learning how to forgive you know for me that is my thing learning how to forgive and getting over if somebody does something shitty it's not worth it to me it does just know that going the next time that that person did something thing this time. You don't have to scorch earth every time. Yeah. And so the scorched earth part, I think is, you know, what people get into this box. They back themselves into this box saying, I'm never going to forgive this person. I'm done. I'm done. Yeah. And you realize that really only

comes from their own pain. And you're trying to punish that person. Right. And if you need a break, take a break. But don't give up. That's a good point too. Like you got a known to sort of say, well, let's just take a small break here. Well, that's also important because with my experience, It's like Mary is, Mary McCormick's my best friend, and she and I have, when we've had fights, she'll always be like, well, I guess this is it. I guess we're not friends anymore. I'm like, you can't threaten my friendship with you when we fight. If you do that, I, that means, you know what I mean?

That is my trigger. If you say you're leaving, then I'm going to expect you to leave or I'll leave. Like, I want to reject everybody before they reject me, you know? So when she understood that and when she, you know, she goes, oh, my God, I understand. Like, your rejection is a threat of leaving. leaving. So I go, you can't threaten our relationship when we have a disagreement. We have to understand that we're having a disagreement and the goal is to repair it. And communication. Like, I think especially between siblings, for me especially, it's not easy even speaking with Kate

to tell her how I feel sometimes when she might make me feel bad. You know, for me personally, it was easier just to absorb it and put it into something humorous and be self-deprecating rather than say, you know, I get it, but that doesn't really make me feel good. It's hard for me to do that because then I'm being vulnerable and then when I'm being vulnerable is when shit happens. You cry. Absolutely. But for me too, like you feel like you're going to die.

Yeah, well, I'm going to be left and destroyed. Yeah, yeah. That's the issue. But the alternative isn't an option because then you just get anger and anger and anger. And if you react with actual vulnerability, which is strength. which is saying hey this hurt me i love you and i'm hurt what can we do about it instead of freaking out and going you fucking asshole you did this and this and this which has always been my way it's now like okay how does this make me feel be vulnerable and and you know for you

you know it's a tricky subject because it's hard i don't like it either i don't like seeing people seeing me cry and i cry every time i talk about this book so i'm going to be crying for the next three months i'm not looking forward to that i love how honest you are about your life i love how honest, you're about your own shortcomings in this book. I love how you express the importance of getting to know yourself in order to be able to be the best version of yourself in the world. Like, there's so much about it that I love that how, I've always loved how unapologetic you are. But yes, like showing a vulnerable side of you is going to be so impactful for so many people. We live in a world of perception and people have to sort of make determinations as to who people,

are in Hollywood. You're different this way. You have put yourself out there. Everyone knows who Chelsea is. So this book actually is sort of, again, a great book end into sort of your next, your next path. Like, no one's going to think that this is, there's anything but truth in this. You're not trying to sell a book. It doesn't feel that way. This is your truth. And if you read your books, there's an evolution there. You know what I mean? From the first one to this one. And now it's almost like you have you're on your way you know i was saying to shana yesterday i was talking to an author in san francisco that i was with a few weeks ago and i said she's a really rebecca solnit she's incredible author and she writes all these great books men explained things and i think you

had hope in the dark up in your room anyway um she was saying i go i just feel like she had read my book she had given me a blurb for it so i she i was having dinner with her and she said you know she goes you're just i go i don't really know what my talent is i don't think i what i what i just a loud mouth. And she goes, no, you're a truth teller. You tell your truth and you tell your story and your story is going to help people. It always has. Your humor. You're just being honest with yourself. And sometimes that's the only gift you need. And I was like, oh, thank you. I was wondering what my fucking gift is. And it's like if it's just talking it because you feel like an asshole talking about yourself all the time. I mean, we all know how that feels. Yeah.

So to make a living doing it feels gross too, but we do that too. And for me, it's like, oh, just keep telling the truth and you'll have an impact. By the way, who knows what the next half of your life is going to be? This whole Chelsea, Chelsea, Chelsea could be the beginning. That's the foundation for something much, much bigger and greater. You actually are in this book telling everybody your story. You talk about family in a way that is like, oh, family, no matter how dysfunctional it is, is everything. The other thing is that we're all, we're all have childhood trauma, all of us.

All of us. So we're all in pain for some reason. Yes. And that's what keeps us the same. So, like, even though you're not unlocking, like, even though my experience is different than yours, of course it's relatable because we've all had those moments that have stained us forever or put us in a certain path forever. And the message is to unlock it.

Like, you're worth discovering. You're worth spending the time to get past it. But you did hit on something in this again, which is that you have to deal with your own shit in order to actually be able to go out and really help people. entirely um who calls the other more i think you call me more yeah yeah okay i'll accept that i do that because i always feel like she's probably in the middle of something she's busy she's busy and i want to but i'm like you know she'll probably be annoyed because she's right in the middle of filming something okay okay next question who gets the last i mean we know the answers to this one who gets the last

word during an argument i mean come i mean it's like do you even argue with her would you even Attemptive? As I've gotten older, I have attempted more often, but, you know. How do you stand politically? Well, we're on the same age. Total same thing. I don't like arguing with Kate. We don't have anything. But there's, what are you arguing about? What are you guys arguing about at this stage of the game? Huh? What are you guys arguing about? Nothing. No, when she, when Kate sort of talks about the things that I let my kids do and the movies, then the way I live my life with my kids and I'm like. He lets like. I'm like, my kids are fucking awesome. Like, I'll do it the way I want to do it.

He lets his kids watch things that I think. Here's the thing. They spend so much time together. I'm like, Oliver, you can't let the kids watch, like, the exorcist. They're like eight, and it's terrible for them. It's fine. Right. And so for me, that's where we argue.

Yeah. And I'm like, well, and this is where we're going to sit with Dan Sequel. Yeah. And he's going to explain to you. But I also think that you shelter your kids. way too much. You don't let them do enough. You're living fear. No. I don't.

You're extremely fearful of them getting hurt, dying, falling. I mean... You're strict. I'm strict. She's super strict. I'm a very strict man. Yeah. Very strict. I'm not. And Oliver's the opposite. Yeah. I mean, I'm strict when I need to be. What's one thing you would change about your sibling? Oh, that's a good question.

Change. She's very restless. She's always like, you know, like has to jump off. the couch and go get something, go do something. Even when we were like teenagers, you know, on the vineyard, she'd, you know, I'm going to go for a run. I'm going to go do this. I'm going to do that. Like, she couldn't just like kind of sit. But that's getting better too. That's actually. Do you think that's ADHD time? I did. I think I have ADD, but Dan says he doesn't think I have it. And then it was an eight hour test. And I was like, I definitely don't have the

patients to take that. So I guess we'll just have to assume I have it. And what would you change about her or want her to change for herself, something that would better her? I just always want her to be more empowered, even though she is in her mind. Like for me, I want her to be more in control of her destiny, like driving it. And that's what I want for everybody. So I think that's more of, you know. There is a statistic that says that it's like 75% of parents actually prefer one child over the other. Yeah. Well, I know what mine is. They'll never admit it. Definitely all of her. Right. Yeah. They'll never admit it. But in your guys' sibling group. Well, I think my dad was just smitten with Chelsea.

Just, I mean, it was, he didn't really try to hide it or, you know. Did you have resentment at all for that? I mean, it was just kind of a joke. I mean, everybody knew it and it was like, that's how I feel about it is, you know? Simone legitimately thinks she's dad's favorite still, so she didn't see it that way. So she's the delusional sister. Yeah, he liked her a lot, too. He did like her, but then once I came along and I was like, okay, things are going to start to happen here.

like I think he just liked the idea that I was financially you know what I mean I was successful and that made it a huge big you know rainbow around me and mom sounded like that probably didn't happen she was like just knitting and singing and saying okay to everybody and shana was my mom's favorite the closest to her but I never felt jealous of it I thought oh those two are like let them go do their thing and I'll go with the boys like they were very close and so my mom but I never felt marginalized by my mom more so than you you know, them not picking me up from Hebrew school or whatever. Okay, so, well, so for this one, actually, this question, we are, Katie and I are basically making like a $10,000 bet. 10, geez. At the end of the season, once this is tallied up and you'll know in a second, we give that to the charity of our choice. So, after this interview. Meaning I get to choose my charity or he gets to choose a sister. Right. Who do you like more?

You have to answer it. We won't be offended. after this interview now you know just take everything into this take everything to account i feel like my relationship with you is already peaked right so you know what i mean so i have more affection for her right now because we're more similar okay and and i feel like i've you might be crushing him right now this might not be good for his like it's fine it's fine it's fine we've peaked though but i feel what i meant to say was that i like you more i'm attracted to you more right you're smarter You're better looking

You're a better parent Right But I don't have a sister So she's going to go with me Okay Okay Shosh And I'm also attracted to you more

So Yay So it's one to one Shoshy Good one One to one Look at Shoshes She's red

She was all yeah She was like We need to get a third sibling in here So it's not equal I have No We have Glenn

I might You guys Your one year Anniversary show we're going to come back with all of our siblings. That would be the best. And then you guys have all of your siblings and we'll all get in a room and just fucking bang it out.

All right. Love you guys. Thank you so much. Sibling Revelry is executive produced by Kate Hudson, Oliver Hudson, and Simpsarna. Supervising producer is Alison Bresnick. Editor is Josh Windish. Music by Mark Hudson,

aka Uncle Mark. I'm Jorge Ramos. And I'm Paola Ramos. Together we're launching The Moment, a new podcast about what it means to live through a time, as uncertain as this one. We sit down with politicians, artists, and activists to bring you death and analysis from a unique Latino perspective. The moment is a space for the conversations we've been having us father and daughter for years. Listen to The Moment with Jorge Ramos. and Paola Ramos, on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Introducing IVF disrupted, the Kind Body story, a podcast about a company that promised to revolutionize fertility care. It grew like a tech startup. While Kind Body did help women start families, it also left behind a stream of disillusioned and angry patients. You think you're finally like in the right hands. You're just not. Listen to IVF Disrupted, The Kind Body Story, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Jenna Lopez, and in the new season of The Over Comfort Podcast, I'm even more honest, more vulnerable, and more real than ever. Am I ready to enter this new part of my life? Like, am I ready to be in a relationship? Am I ready to have kids and to really just devote myself and my time?

Join me for conversations about healing and growth, all from one of my favorite spaces, The Kitchen. Listen to the new season of the Overcomber podcast on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast.