Sibling Revelry with Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson - Esther Perel

Episode Date: March 17, 2022

Kate and Oliver are joined by psychotherapist and New York Times bestselling author Esther Perel, who is an expert on modern relationships. They discuss the legacy of trauma and resiliency, how to stay connected to each other, the importance of physical touch, the impact of technology on loneliness, and more.Executive Producers: Kate Hudson and Oliver HudsonProduced by Allison BresnickEdited by Josh WindischMusic by Mark HudsonThis show is powered by Simplecast.This episode is sponsored by:Future (tryfuture.com/sibling)Sakara (sakara.com/sibling)Helix (helixsleep.com/sibling)See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. September is a great time to travel, especially because it's my birthday in September, especially internationally. Because in the past, we've stayed in some pretty awesome Airbnbs in Europe. Did we've one in France, we've one in Greece, we've actually won in Italy a couple of years ago. Anyway, it just made our trip feel extra special.

So if you're heading out this month, consider hosting your home on Airbnb with the co-host feature. You can hire someone local to help manage everything. Find a co-host at Airbnb.ca slash host. Hi, I'm Janica Lopez, and in the new season of the Overcomfit Podcast, I'm even more honest, more vulnerable, and more real than ever. Am I ready to enter this new part of my life? Like, am I ready to be in a relationship?

Am I ready to have kids and to really just devote myself and my time? Join me for conversations about healing and growth, all from one of my favorite spaces, The Kitchen. Listen to the new season of the Overcombered podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever. you get your podcast. The Super Secret Bestie Club podcast season four

is here. And we're locked in. That means more juicy chisement. Terrible love advice. Evil spells to cast on your ex. No, no, no, we're not doing that this season. Oh. Well, this season we're leveling up. Each episode will feature a special Bestie and you're not going to

want to miss it. My name is Curley. And I'm Maya. Get in here. Listen to the Super Secret Festi Club on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, I'm Kate Hudson. And my name is Oliver Hudson. We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationship.

And what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling rivalry. No, no. Sibling rivalry. Don't do that with your math. That's good. Sibling revelry

That's good. Esther Perrell. I loved this all of her. This was amazing. I know. I could have talked to her for many, many hours. Esther Perrell is a psychotherapist and an expert on relationships and sexuality. Right. That's why we have a.

a lot in common. I am too. Oh, Jesus. She has a really popular podcast called Where Should We Begin? I love this podcast. It's fascinating. I get so sucked into this podcast because she really like, well, first of all, you think it's not going to be a relatable situation because some of them are really extreme.

And then there's, like, you just, everything about relationships becomes relatable. But she has an amazing story. I mean, even aside from sort of what she does and how popular she is. You know, her parents were Holocaust survivors. And, you know, she gets into sort of how they came to the West. Yeah. And also she talked a lot about, you know, the legacy of trauma and resilience and, you know, how her parents managed that. It was really, really, really interesting.

and obviously we hit some cool topics you know i know that people a lot of people know who she is and we tried to sort of hit some different topics you know importance of physical touch we talked about that which is big for me because my love language is physical touch as everyone knows staying connected to people yeah you know like the importance of staying connected and how about we talk also the impact yes i was just going to say that of technology right and loneliness yeah and then i sort of countered with but can't tech especially watching these boys and with their VRs and stuff, as crazy as it is,

they are engaged in a community and with other people and laughing and sharing. No, it's terrible for their... It's terrible. Okay. This was my favorite thing that she said. And we're going to leave you with this

and then we're going to start our podcast with Esther Perel. She said, sex is not something you do. It's somewhere you go. Mm-hmm. So... Yeah.

Our sibling rivalry family, please enjoy Esther Perrault. I just want to say I'm very excited, Esther, to have this time with you. And before we even start, I did this movie this summer called Knives Out. I did Knives Out, too, with Catherine Hahn, who was someone I worked with on a movie called How to Lose a Guy in 10 days 20 years ago. And all she could talk about was your book was mating in captivity. She was just completely obsessed. She then gave me your book.

And so you were a big theme of our summer. I just wanted to tell you that. And anyway, I'm just so excited to have this opportunity to talk to you. Yes. I'm pleased to be here about you. And I can't wait because I have a lot of problems and I have many situations that I relate to.

You know, I watched your TED Talk. on infidelity. Yeah. We'll get in. I want to get into all that. Astaire, I want to start really with where you were born in your family history. Your story is really fascinating and quite traumatic, actually, for your parents. So I'd love for you to talk a little bit about where you came from.

So I'm born in Belgium, the daughter of two Polish Holocaust survivors who both were the only survivors of their entire families. and who kind of arrived to Belgium by fluke because my father had helped somebody in the concentration camp who was Belgian and said, just come with me. And then basically proceeded to stay another five years as illegal refugees in Belgium. But my brother is born in 46 and I arrive quite a few years later. So in a way, I have less of the immediacy of that experience in my veins. but I have the second degree that was transmitted to me. And basically, I would say the legacy of my parents was very much one of we survived this in order to embrace life, in order to really live for all of those who didn't have the

opportunity to. And so the quality of aliveness was very, very important. And I think that I received both the what you call the traumatic legacy, but also the survival and the revival narrative that accompanied that. And the traumatic legacy, sort of how do those two things coexist, where you're living in a traumatic legacy, but also this sort of revival? I mean, the traumatic legacy is basically lost, the loss of everything, your community, your home, your family, your siblings, 200 people on each side. It's just like massive, massive amounts of loss and dismantlement and grief. And then the revival is we're going to rebuild. I think that the first thing in the plot of revival is that is the meaning of a child.

You have children in order to replenish, in order to bring back life on the face of death as an antidote to it. So that's the first thing. It's like we are on some level considered miracle children in that sense. I think that's the first sense is that, you know, you carry the names of people. You remember where you come from and you never forget where you come from, you know, regardless of where you think. you're going to go. So there's this constant connection to a history that is bigger than you. And that is true for your history. I would say that's also true for your problems. Your problems, you know, put them in the bigger perspective and then you'll see if they're really

problems. What about what about growing up, you know, sometimes trauma is swept under the rug or legacy or history is swept under the rug and sometimes there's heavily communicated, Meaning your parents open about what happened, open about their experiences, their feelings, their emotions, all of that with you as kids. It's a great, it's a real, I mean, you know, I come from my entire community in Antwerp, in Belgium, were Holocaust survivors. So it wasn't just my family. It was not like we were different from the people around us. Yes, we were very different from the people in the neighborhood, but not from the community itself. So it was, everybody had similar stories.

So as a child also, I wasn't alone with this whole thing, living in a dark secret. So that's a very important difference in terms of legacy of trauma. You're not busy with secrecy, with shame, with lies, with hiding, you know. Now, I was very lucky that I had parents who talked about their experiences. So that really helped. Both of them were amazing storytellers. and I was also lucky I would say that my parents

had a way of telling the story that made it possible for us to listen we didn't cringe we didn't have to shy away from like stuff that was unbearable to listen to at the same time I can't say that they had a keen understanding of child development

so the story was told as is unedited regardless if you were 3, 6 or 9 you know that's an important thing But, you know, there is a way of looking at the stories of survivors if the lens was through the lens of victimization or if the story was through the lens of heroism. And I have to say my parents had more of the side of heroism. So the stories were stories of resilience, stories of how they survived, how they beat the system, how they found another potato, how they made, you know, how they helped each other, how they stayed hopeful, rather than the other side, which I learned much, much, much.

So that's, I think, a major distinction. I was talking about that just because my mom is very invested in, you know, people's mental fitness. And one of the things we were talking about was resiliency and that those who have a tendency to do the more sort of resilient, more optimistic, you know, it is what's in the best interest of your mental health is to try to look at the, you know, you know, how can we reprogram our brain to actually look in that direction versus what we're probably more programmed to do, which is the other?

Do you agree with that? I don't think that that bears true historically, you know. I think that people, you know, if you ask most survivors of many situations, war situations, larger psychosocial traumas, they will tell you that a portion of what made them arrive to where they are is luck a portion is a deep sense of connection to their roots

a sense of reason I'm fighting for a reason I'm not just fighting to stay alive I'm fighting for the people who in my group who haven't had the opportunity to stay alive so my survival is bigger than just myself I'm attached to a longer story this is true across the globe

so for Palestinian children This is too, for many people, that resilience is deeply anchored in a sense of purpose and a sense of meaning. That's the Victor Frankel way of looking at it as well. And then the sense that you had people who helped you. It's very rare that people look at the resilience as just an individual plot. Me and my skills, me and my, you know, my ways of going about it. there were people. I connected with others. I found others on the road. I, you know, somebody at that moment, you know, threw me a piece of bread, things like that. It's a, it's very much the notion that

in the midst of a collective trauma, resilience is also collective. Was this something, I mean, that you are always interested in psychology or human behavior? I've read that you were interested in it as a teenager. And so do you feel like this was sort of your calling and always spoke to you? I mean, at first, I don't think I was interested in psychology as a calling. I think one is interested in psychology because one wants to understand oneself. Why am I having such problems?

Why am I so sad? Why do I have melancholy? You know, why do I feel like I experience things that belong to my parents as if they had happened to me? Why do I have those nightmares? Why does this boy not like me? Whatever the thing is that I was probably dealing with. But I also, I had a keen curiosity about, like, why can people get so evil, you know,

and how can the same person who can be so evil one minute turn around and be so sweet to their own children the next minute? Like, what is, you know, what is evil and how, what is human about how evil we can be? And then the same thing would be true as what is pain. Like, how do we overcome pain, you know? How do we overcome suffering? What do we do with it? And what really helps?

and those kind of questions. I think I was really interested in early on. And I think a part of my interest in psychology probably was, you know, there was a sense in my family that, you know, my problems were kind of paled in comparison with the kind of massive suffering that my parents and all the parents of my friends had experienced. And I just, you know, I felt like I don't really have a reason to be sad.

And yet I often was. Or, you know, I didn't know where to go. So I went to read. And I also hated school. So I went to see if people had a different way of talking about children than the way that we were being treated in this very rigid system that I was in. You know, I went to the books to see there must be another way. This cannot be the only way.

So you're an outside thinker and actually stumbled upon your calling, really, just through the way that you were feeling about yourself and your interest in your own human condition, I guess. You know, I love that. Yes. I mean, you could also say that if you're a avid reader and you like novels, then you are by nature interested in psychology. I mean, characters in a book is psychology.

It's a keen understanding of how we are. And so I went from that. I was actually more interested first in theater and in literature. And that brought me to psychology. Were your parents very physical with each other and amorous and sensual? openly, you know, is that something that you grew up with witnessing and sort of taking that on? In one direction. My father was very amorous of my mother. He was always kissing her and holding her and complimenting her and he adored her utterly. And my mother was very happy to take

the compliments. But there was no reciprocation? Not exactly. I mean, yes, the reciprocation came in the form of the receiving. Right. You know, she, she liked it. But no, she wasn't going around saying, you look so beautiful, whereas he just couldn't stop saying, you know, and on and on like that. And that, we definitely witnessed that, you know, he, he always thought that, you know, he had locked out that he had, they would never have been a pre-war marriage. My mother was more educated. My mother was well-read.

my mother came from a religious aristocratic background my father was rather illiterate he went to school three years in his life he was he came from a tiny village he was much more peasant stock and uh and you know it was definitely not that would never have happened oh wow wow and and they both lost their full everybody everybody oh isn't that isn't that kind i just it gives me like chills all the way up my my body They were the youngest, each one of their families. She had seven siblings. She had nine siblings and all of them married with kids and everything. So they met on the road of liberation. They did. Yes, the day after they were liberated, they just met on the road as they were.

You know, people were looking for other people who had come from similar, close by towns and may know of somebody. And that's kind of how they hooked up. Wow. The man who delivered Oliver and I is a survivor, and he lost his whole family. And he's very open about his story. And he literally, for I think it was like a year, couldn't find anybody in his family and then found his sister. Wow. And, yeah.

So, you know, these stories that we hear are sort of unimaginable. And yet, and yet there are still stories like this happening right now as we speak, you know, when you're saying you were studying and sort of interested in families in cultural transition. And how did you find yourself in that work? And in your studies, you know, what was the one thing that really stuck out the most when you were really looking at those kinds of transitions for people? So I looked at three groups, basically. I looked at immigrant families, and among the immigrant families, I studied families who had experienced forced migration and families who had experienced voluntary migration, to Europe, to Canada, to the U.S., various parts of the world. And what was different? How did the experience of having to come affect how people experienced the receiving country, you know, how they adapted? what they held on to from their past, from their own culture,

how much they were open and willing to embrace the new culture and things like that. You know, I definitely was part of an entire immigrant community that I basically showed up for no reason to this country, had nothing in common with that country. And it was very interesting to see, you know, how do you become a Belgian or European, a Western European, you know. Where do you stumble? You know, how does it change the couple relationship?

How does it change your attitude towards children? How do you change your attitude towards what feelings can be expressed and not expressed? What is the meaning of family in those cultures, etc.? Then I got interested very much in working with mixed couples, interracial, intercultural, interreligious families. Because they also are going through cultural transition, but it happens in their own living room. They're not crossing borders necessarily, but psychologically they are. And so, and I speak multiple languages, and it was just a fascinating way of looking at the world. It was a way of traveling, even if I wasn't traveling, you know.

And then I got interested in how does the digital really change dynamics in families and relationships. And it's an endlessly fascinating subject. And what I can't even say is that was there one main thing, you know, it kept me busy for 20 years, really, to look at, You know, what is the attitude to money, to time, to sex, to illness, to boundaries, to loyalty, to the role of the individual, to the importance of happiness? How do all these things, you know, line up in particular cultures and in particular families, and especially when the family is in transition? How do people, you know, use the ocean either to strengthen their connection to the past and then use that connection to the past to help them. become part of the new place or how much do they use the oceans to dump the past and to think I'm going to reinvent myself anew? And then how much do these roles play themselves out among

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You talk about the digital age too and all. All of these big themes that you're talking about, you know, I just were all constantly evolving, you know, always constantly evolving. Even morality, and this is my own opinion, morality has evolved. I just don't believe that there is one singular, there's no, there's one singular way. You know, a hundred years ago, morality looked different than it did today, it seems. Now, when you're dealing in your practice and sort of when you have studied for so long, how have you seen this digital age? this age of information where everything's at your fingertips shift the dynamic of humanity, you know, from an emotional place.

Not physical, not computers and your phones necessarily, but, you know, dealing with sort of how connected we are, especially with sex, you know, especially with sex nowadays. And our kids, they're all the, they're growing up now in a different world of sexuality. I mean, their idea of what is supposed to be sex is completely different. What would you say is one way it's changed for you? For me?

You didn't always have the digital in your life. No, I miss when there was no digital, you know. I mean, one way it's changed is I feel like I've even gotten lazier, if that's possible. You know, we used to be outside all the time. You know, we were on our bikes. We were in the world more. And now it seems like we are more right here. you know and watching my kids and having to balance that as well making sure that they do get out of the house

and they do get off of their tablets and computers but at the same time we're living in this world so I'm not going to deprive them of the future but I just try to balance it really do you bring your phones to the table um yeah I mean I do I know Kate I don't know but I do I'm pretty strict with phones I mean, I have my moments where I get lazy and I don't, but I'm pretty strict with the phone thing, and I even do that for my own sake. It's like I'm not even saying that to my kids. I'm saying it to myself.

Yes, yes. The kids, they're often better than us. I find it to be the bane of my existence for any kind of intimacy and connection. And I really don't like it. And for me, like, for instance, being on the phone and bed, I think is one of the worst things couples can do. and um or for me at least i don't want to sit there and sit on our phones not talking to

each other in bed unless i want to ignore my partner and i'm actively ignoring him i would rather yeah exactly but but on the you know what i don't really want to but on the flip side of that though kate though like the technology can actually advance sort of your intimacy meaning depending on how you look at well because you can you can face time each other you can sexed each other, you can have digital sex, you know what I mean, which isn't a bad thing. I mean, we are actors and so we're away from our kids. I can see them every single day now. I mean, technology has allowed me to do that. It's a both end. Right. And, you know, laziness used to exist before, too.

And before that, people watch TV to be lazy sometimes. And sometimes people read the newspaper and were lazy. And sometimes people were in their garden and were lazy. So the idea. of not making the effort to engage with the people around us has always existed. The need for communication and connection has always existed and the means change. So then the question becomes, where is the need, where is the means helping us? And where does the means sometimes kind of, you know, not really help us, to put it in simple language. And it really is a both end. I think after these two years or 18 months now, we have really.

very clear that it's both and it has given us tremendous ways to remain connected to people and at the same time there's a different story you know

it's very interesting I spend the pandemic at one point creating a game because I felt that we are this social atrophy that you're describing

I felt like there must be a way to create something tangible that we can use to experience more intimacy more connection etc

and I never could hold the cards the entire two years, after 18 months, couldn't hold it. I was imagining all of this. This was, you know, and it was a, and then one day I held it. And then I thought, you cannot play this thing like that on Zoom. Of course, you can try.

And you, and it will be better than not. But there is something about sitting in the room and seeing people engage with each other playfully, that, and with curiosity, that, you know, so I am constantly in the both. end. I can do therapy work online and I think it is phenomenal that I can do therapy work online. I can bring in your friends and your siblings in ways that I could never do. I can do where should we begin the podcast. I can do where should we begin a game online or both of them.

And I think all the time that I have this tool. And at the same time, I notice, you know, we may meet and speak for an hour and I will never know what you look like beyond this. I don't know how you move. I don't know how tall you are. I don't know your physical language. I hear you speak, you know, I'm making eye contact with you, but I know that when I will look at it afterwards, I'm looking to the side and we're not really seeing each other. And there's no mirror neurons firing at each other. And that is there too. So, you know, you talked about was my father touching. Yes, we can speak the touch. But it's, and sometimes I can even imagine the touch on my skin that you would be communicating with me via the digital.

But there is still a different experience at this moment if you hold my hands for real. I think that you know that with your kid. You can FaceTime your kid and then when you hold the hand of your kid or when you hug your child, that experience, the way that will be internalized is still very different than the translation that we experience here. And we can have this very long conversation about what we gain and what we lose. And you're right. We live in this world.

We want it. And at the same time, there is still something in the embodied life that I don't want to give up. Oh, no, no, no, no. That's my love language. Physical touch. I need to be touched. Yeah, thank you. Are you, do you believe in the mystical?

You know, I mean, because I was picturing your parents meeting on this road to freedom, visualizing it. And do you believe that we are all interconnected somehow and that there's a greater power at play? I'm not talking about God and religion necessarily. I'm just talking about energy and the reasons that things happen and your parents meeting on this road. Or is it just, hey, fuck it. It just is what it is. I don't know. Well, there's a distinction between, hey, fuck it and destiny stories.

There's a few things in between. believe in the destiny plot, not exactly. It was meant to happen. It's fate. That is not a language that is particularly interesting to me. But that doesn't mean that I don't, I relish happenstance and surprise and serendipity and improvisation. And then I can say, you know, wow, you could never make this up.

This doesn't happen for no reason. But that doesn't mean that I consider it destiny and meant to happen. By the way, in relationship. There is a view that says that those of us who have a destiny relationship mentality we met, it was meant to happen, are also the one that are often more easily disillusioned. And therefore, the ones that give up more faster because they basically say, well, at first it was meant to happen and now it's no, well, it wasn't meant to happen. Whereas people who come in with what is called the growth mentality, that, you know, you come in, something brought you together and from there you build and you transform and you grow are often people that will more likely invest because they have a sense that the agency is their own and not what you consider those mystical realities of it was fate, it was meant to be, it was divine intervention and things like that. Yeah. In romantic love, that's actually a very important distinction. That makes a lot of sense. The destiny mentality and the growth mentality.

It's sort of like you're not thinking about the actual act of growing in the relationship or the things that you bring to the table. You're thinking like this is just some unconditional idea of. Right. Destiny. Like, oh, we're meant to be together. So, fuck it. There we go. You don't have to work on anything at all. And it's seamless. Shouldn't everything just be the fine. Yeah. Right. It's seamless. We have to make no effort. It was just meant to be. And then when it becomes. difficult. People find it harder to know what to do because if it was just meant to be and it came from outside and it just dropped on me like that in this enchanted state, then you often feel a little more bereft. When did you just because I'm assuming, I mean maybe I'm wrong, but I'm assuming just based on your podcast and your book that relationships and the

core that being sort of the core center now of most families is that relationship that that's become a big part or if not the most of the part of the work that you like to sort of invest in right i mean i have a predilection for couples work yes pairs i i need you why does she need me it's interesting because because well no because i i always say in my life The thing that's always been consistent for me is work. Like the things that come easy are my friendships, my work relationships, my relationship to my career, my relationship to my kids. And the thing that's always had been a challenge for me is the couple, is the actual relationship and, you know, sort of how it moves and how it grows and my tolerance. No, so, and then for me, and then we'll give you some context here, for me, relationships have always been smooth.

I've been in love twice and then the third time I've been married. I'm 20 years in. We'll talk about infidelities and how we came out of it amazingly, which was why your podcast sort of resonate, or sorry, your TED Talk resonated with me so much. But I hope my podcast too. It does too, but this specific TED Talk. I have loads of sessions about that very topic. Yeah. Yeah. But so for me, my insecurities come more sort of in the form of my career or am I good enough or, you know, I'm comparing myself and I can get depressed around those areas. Now, our dad left when we were five or six years old, four years old, three years old for Kate. And sort of that was a big impact in our lives. It affected her a little bit differently than it affected me, you know. So going back to Kate, why can't she have?

have a happy relationship. It's not about having a happy relationship. I think for me, it's like, it's, well, you know. Can I reframe the question for you? Yes. CBT. What is it that you know you do in your friendships? And that makes you so good at being a friend that you find challenging to bring into your

romantic relationship. That's a great question. That's a great question. Well, I would say I have less expectation from my friendships in terms of like what I need from them on a daily basis, one. Good. Mm-hmm. Very good.

two i don't have to see them all the time um like i'm i'm easier with sort of having more independence it's easier for me to be independent with my friends um that goes together with expectations right expectations means you need that person and that means you depend on that person. And that means that person has a certain power over you. Right. By definition, it's not negative, positive. It's just, and with your friends, you temper your expectations, which then makes you feel that you are less dependent on them, less needing of them, and then less disappointed in them, and less resentment, resentful of them. To me, it always is, you know, what happens, you know, why can you temper your expectations with your friends? You take it for granted because it's easy for you to

do. But in fact, in many situations, that's not the case for people. They come with a lot of different expectations to their friends. They are continuously in situations where they think I'm a better friend to you than you are to me. It's not equal, et cetera, et cetera. You, because it's an easy one, you say, no issue there. And I say to you, instead of looking at why you have a problem here, switch the model and ask yourself, what is it that I can do in every one of these other situations, that what do they draw out of me? The work one, the friendship one, the parental one, these are all difficult systems. They happen to not be difficult for you. Therefore, look at your strengths in those relationships and then see what you can transfer

into your relationship with him. That's coming from a resilience model, rather than the way you framed your question, which is to come from a deficiency model. What's wrong here what's missing here what can't i do here that's where i was going how how how how big of a part does sex play in a relationship and i asked this because depends on the people well for me i yeah you're right you're right it depends on the people but here's the thing though i always say this i'm like if i don't have an incredible sexual relationship with my partner then i might as well be living with my best friend John and raising kids together as friends

you know and now if that is the model that's for you great if everyone's you answered for yourself you answered for yourself for you that connection is an very important part of the intimate bond but for other people

that is not a story see the thing about a question like that is that it presumes a kind of a universal norm and this is absolutely not the case if I have one message about relationships it's usually that there is a one-size-fits-all. There are some people for whom actually to be with my best friend, John, in a more platonic co-parenting arrangement,

in a deep sense of friendship and affection, is more than I've ever hoped for because sex has been cruel, sex has been painful, sex has been abusive, sex has been all kinds of things but pleasurable and intimately connected. For example. Or I am struggling with all kinds of issues of health, And therefore, sex is not that kind of sex.

It's a different sexuality that doesn't just involve the act of lovemaking in the kind of penis-in-vigina, heterosexual model that often is the dominant model. So even when you say sex, what are we talking about? Well, I guess what I'm saying, though, is like when you're starting out with someone and the sex is hot and heavy and it's really great. And then as you continue on in your relationship, one of the partners is like, let's keep that going, the other one sort of fizzles out. Now you're separate. Now you've got a, now you've got a divide, a sexual divide. How do you remedy something like that? Because I feel like

that alone could destroy a relationship. But it depends why you have a divide. The divide may be because imagine that that person who used to be so present, you know, is no longer paying much attention to you at all. You're constantly having to deal with, you know, when a person, is on the phone while you're talking to them, you have a sense of ambiguous loss. They're physically present, but they're emotionally absent. You know, so you're there, but not there. And that's when the other person feels a certain kind of loneliness

that is really, you know, it's like it's easier to be alone when I'm totally by myself in the end. From that place, for a lot of people, sex becomes like the lasting on their mind. So what is the divide? Is the divide rooted in loneliness, in resentment, in, in, you know, in unresolved conflict, in particular dynamics in the relationship, in health concerns, in, in depression, in mental health issues, that divide, in order to know what to do and how you remedy it, you really have to understand what is making me shut down with you.

And am I only shut down with you or am I shut down as a whole because I've disconnected. from myself in such a way that I am out of touch with my own erotic self. Is it depression? Is it anxiety? Is it, you know, whatever are the major things that may be affecting me? And from that place, you then say, what is it that needs to be remedied here? You know, why is one person shying away from the other? And what is the other person doing? Are you getting angry? Are you getting impatient? Do you feel like, you know, you're not getting you do? How is that being dealt with? How is the distancer and the person? pursuer, how was the dance between these two people? How are they handling this desired

discrepancy? Is it because you basically have had sex the way you like it for all these years without ever really have asked me what I wanted? And in the beginning, I was willing to do everything you like because I wanted you. I mean, there are so many plots without the narrative you don't know the truth. That's why, you know, that's the most important thing. I mean, And that does make a lot of sense. You know, when I'm, when, you know, I always believe that what is happening in the bedroom is usually a pretty good mirror, unless it's performative. It's a pretty good mirror of how you're communicating with each other in your daily life. It's, you know, and what you, and how deep you know about someone else's desires.

Like, I find that to be almost more intimate than the act itself, that you can actually experience. express to someone, like, what your desires are. Heelix the mattress, the wonderful, wonderful mattress. Bingham is now on a helix. Is he? Is he feeling it? So I got, yeah, I was like, Bing, I got Bing a new bed and he needed a mattress. I was like, okay, I'm going to get him a helix. Because it comes, it's easy, and it's comfortable, and he loves it.

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Take their two-minute sleep quiz. They'll match you to a customized mattress that'll give you the best sleep of your life. Helix is offering up to $200 off of all mattress orders and two free pillows for our listeners at helixleep.com slash sibling. One of the things that's always bothered me about that sort of heterosexual male-female dynamic is that for some reason,

Men are the ones with all of these, like, sexual fantasy ideas and that they hide them instead of actually encouraging the communication of the things that they're interested in or want to get into. That's vulnerability. You have to feel vulnerable enough and okay enough and safe enough to be able to say those things. Or and risk that it might be something that your partner, it might make them feel insecure or it might make them feel uncomfortable. or it might make them, you have to enter that field of intimacy and conversation so that you can get closer and understand each other. So if Danny just brought home a strap on and was like, I'm ready to go, you'd be okay with that.

I'm sure we'd have to talk about it, Oliver. But you see, what's so interesting is that that is true, Kate. And so, too, is the quality of revelation. is shaped by the quality of the listening. If you anticipate judgment, ridicule, humiliation, which are three major vulnerabilities around male sexuality, then you don't reveal.

You basically, the majority of the time, people will say what they think is okay to say that they think the other person can bear listening. And that's why I, you know, when you said it's all more than the act itself, yes, sex is not something you do. It is a place you go with yourself and with another. What's this trip you take? Where are you going? What are you connecting with?

What are you expressing? It's a language. And that is back to your question. It's like the person who gets disinterested is often disinterested in the plot. And then the, because the act without the plot, doing it is not really the only thing. It's the meaning you attach to it is where it takes you. People can do it for centuries and we feel absolutely not. Yeah, on that point, I've experienced emotional sex only in the last three or four years, meaning, of course, you're emotionally connected to the person that you're making love to when it's your wife, but very physical and amazing.

My sex life has always been amazing with Aaron, my wife. but something happened I went to I just did a lot of deep, deep work on myself and say it all I went to this place called the Hoffman Institute

Ah you did Hoffman okay Yeah and it was incredible for me and dealing with all the stuff I came out of that and with this vulnerability that I have never experienced

in my life and this freedom because I was unafraid to be vulnerable and I didn't care that this perceptive that I had that people would think that my vulnerability was not masculine enough. Yes, it was weak and was weak. Right. It totally switched. And my sex life, our sex life,

became something that was just inexplicable almost. It took it to a level. Wonderful. And I, for the first time, experienced what it was like to be truly vulnerable. And then we talk about sort of allowing my wife, my vulnerability, allowed Aaron to open up too and to go places that we have never gone before physically and emotionally as well and it was really a beautiful beautiful experience for me you know and um it fizzle it fades a little bit because you live in this bubble for a minute you know but what were you going to say about emotional sex well that was the first time I had actually felt connected oh during like super connected and just, like, deeply sexually in love. The idea that erotic intimacy becomes a very deeply layered revelation of oneself. Yeah. That you speak your inner truth through this language called sexuality.

You go to do a week-long, intensive, insight-oriented journey, and you relish the complexities and the layers of your inner life that you're just discovering. And then another part of you wishes for simplicity. And I think that we constantly straddled both, you know, a kind of a fantasy of simplicity, but also a deep acceptance of complexity. And if you ask me what interests me in relationships and in human relationships and in couples and in love, it's that. It's that duality that I'm deeply fascinated in. And I've always wanted to find a way to make the complex accessible and to talk about what many of us have sensed and somehow no, but have not necessarily had the words to put to it.

And to help people have difficult conversations, you know, that's part of why I, you know, I do it in therapy, I do it by creating a game. I want to facilitate these conversations, but it is about how to facilitate a deep engagement with the part of our life, our relationships that is central to all of us, and that many of us wish we'd sometimes lived better. But it doesn't always happen this way. Yeah. Like, what if you don't have a willing partner, you know?

What if the things that you desire are just unwilling or just constantly overlooked? I mean, then, you know, because it's one thing to talk about, you know. It can't always work out. Well, it depends which culture you live in, right? If you live in a culture that puts individual happiness at the center, you're going to, think very differently. And when I say culture, it's your personal culture, your family culture, and your global culture.

Do you live in the model of individual happiness at the center? Then you're going to think very differently about how you're going to get your needs met and if you even should come with needs and if you're allowed to have expectations and what expectations are okay. And all of that is mediated in a power structure and in a cultural tradition. Versus if you live in a place where, you know, you can't always get what you want and that is marriage and you do the best with the cards that you have in your hands. And you're going to have to just live with that and somehow tolerate it.

That's a very different, you know, map for how you're going to deal with your frustrations and your dissatisfactions. You know, did you learn to suffer? Did you learn to accept sacrifice? Did you learn to accept the idea that, you know, you're never going to get what you want? Did you learn that what you want, it was too much? Did you learn that you were too much to handle? you know, there's so many pieces

to how we deal with this is the work of the therapist is to really help unpack that and I'm sorry I can't give you simplicity I feel I mean I a free frolic

what do you think is kind of the most common core whether it be a problem or a situation that you find of all the work that you've done with patients and relationships that kind of comes up all the time. There are really various ways to answer this. Really, there is not one answer. But the one that comes up at this moment for me is if you look at it in terms of what is

problematic, I would say that sometimes what is problematic is that, people are too close. They are fused. There is nothing one person can feel that the other person doesn't personalize. There's not enough air between them. What one person breeds out, the other person breeds in. And it is too enmeshed. And sometimes you're dealing with relationships that are too far apart, where one person can be weeping and the other one barely notices it. and there is a gap between them and they're not connected enough I think that that is one major continuum

is there a need for more connection and more closeness is there a need for more differentiation and more separateness that would be one major axis on which you look then you look vertically is this where this is the hierarchy so it's love and power connection, the continuum of connection and love, affection, and the continuum of power, hierarchy, and structure.

Is there a clear structure? Is there a fluidity of power? Is there a reciprocity of power? Or is there a very strict hierarchy? Is it highly structured or is it completely chaotic? That would be the next axis. I think that that is your basic primary map that you can take to look at relationships. What about in your relationships, since this is your world?

Like, how do you, how do you even approach your own relationships? It's like, oh, man, this is, I'm going to be analyzed to the, to the nth degree. Do you make mistakes, you know? Can you self-analyze and can you spin out of control? You know, I'm married to a psychologist, too. Oh, really. Oh, there are both of you. Kids.

So typically when you ask us a question, I think one of us would say, who do you want to hear from? Because we probably will have very different answers. And the ability to live with these multiple stories is probably a strength as well. We don't have one coherent narrative. We don't agree necessarily on what makes it work. We have a different view of it. And it changes.

You know, I think the best. thing I've ever been able to describe was that, because you talked about, you know, the two loves and then the third person that you are with, I think that many people today in the West are going to have more than one relationship, one love relationship in their adult life. And some of us are going to do it with the same person. So I would say we have had many marriages to each other. My answer is not the same when I met him in my 20s that I do decades later now. You know, the power dynamics have shifted, the balance of interdependence has shifted, the structure changed from when we had little ones to now having no one, none of them in the house with us, to what happened to us physically, to our health, to the loss of our parents, to, it's that. All of that changed the way that we relate in that sense. But yes, there was a certain language of affection that has remained very central. a humor, shared interests, a sense of adventure, all of that.

At the same time, as, you know, then comes a pandemic, then you suddenly realize, wow, we are fragile. We are considered elderly suddenly, you know, never thought of myself as elderly, but here we are. And so suddenly you begin to think about vulnerability differently. You know, it's not the same as the vulnerability definition that I would have when I think of myself or him in our 30s. So it's that.

And I think really what is important for me is not longevity per se. It's really, how do couples maintain a sense of aliveness? Of vibrancy, of vitality. In friendship, when the vitality and the vibrancy gets lost, the relationship fizzles out and you move on to other friends. And by definition, you think of a friendship

as a very vibrant relationship. The same thing needs to happen in romantic love. Romantic love, unfortunately, has the feature of starting out, uber vibrant and alive and erotic in the sense alive, not just sexual. And then it fizzles out. And often it is because of laziness,

as you were describing early on. There's a sense of complacency and a sense of bringing the leftovers home, you know, and the best goes elsewhere. And it's that. How do you let people understand that if this needs, this needs to be watered. It's a relationship that really needs active engagement. You don't have this fascinating conversations with your girlfriend and boring conversations with your partner kind of thing.

You can do it. We do it. We all do it. But those of us who manage to really keep it alive, when they sense that, they infuse energy. They resuscitate. They understand, you know, we have got to engage. And that is, everybody knows it. And for some reason, it's very hard for people to do it.

I, we are going to end on that note because I know you have to go and I just have to say, I want to talk to you again. Oh, me too. I'm going to call you offline. I hope we get an opportunity to speak again. And I just love the work that you do. And I want everyone to know your podcast, where she's. should we begin is brilliant your book mating captivity is a must read and you've got that new game coming out which is also called where we should begin too right it's a it's out it's out oh good

it's out it's up there to play and to get before you go too i've been playing sexual games forever like i have created these games with my wife do you know the game jenga you know where you pull out the pieces and it topples over yep okay and then we also play sexes sexual yotsie but sexual jank is good too where on each piece you write out a desire something physically that you want done to you and you can be as x-rated as you want to be and when you pull out the piece you read it and it says something crazy like maybe intercourse from behind for 10 seconds totally gross and then boom then you're done you got to stop and then you keep pulling out pieces and you're doing these things to each other and you can't finish the game because

can't make a suggestion yes all right you get yourself a where should we begin the game of stories there are cards with pink triangle those are the sex questions if you want to play with your kids or with your friends you can take those out if you want to play with Erin you can just play those

and then you come back and you tell me after having played those cards oh good if you learn things about each other that you had never shared oh okay this is so fun thank you so much for sharing your

Thank you so much. Sibling Revelry is executive produced by Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson. Producer is Allison Bresden. Editor is Josh Windish. Music by Mark Hudson, aka Uncle Mark. If you want to show us some love, rate the show and leave us a review. This show is powered by Simplecast. In early 1988, federal agents raced to track down the gang they suspect of import.

reporting millions of dollars worth of heroin into New York from Asia. Had 30 agents ready to go with shotguns and rifles and you name it. Five, six white people. Pushed me in the car. Basically, your stay-at-home moms were picking up these large amounts of heroin. All you got to do is receive the package. Don't have to open it, just accept it. She was very upset, crying. Once I saw the gun, I tried to take his hand, and I saw the flash of light.

Listen to the Chinatown Sting on the IHeart Radio app. Apple Podcasts or anywhere you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Jennifer Lopez, and in the new season of The Over Comfort Podcast, I'm even more honest, more vulnerable, and more real than ever. Am I ready to enter this new part of my life? Like, am I ready to be in a relationship? Am I ready to have kids and to really just devote myself and my time? Join me for conversations about healing and growth, all from one of my favorite spaces,

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