Sibling Revelry with Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson - Lisa and Laura Ling

Episode Date: November 20, 2019

Award-winning journalists Lisa and Laura Ling join Kate and Oliver on this week’s “Sibling Revelry.” They open up about how their childhood shaped their curiosity of the world, their incredible bond and what happened when Laura was held hostage in North Korea, and why Laura still lets Lisa have the front seat. Executive Producers: Kate Hudson, Oliver Hudson, and Sim SarnaProduced by Allison BresnickEditor: Josh WindischMusic by Mark HudsonThis show is brought to you by Cloud10 and powered by Simplecast.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an IHeart podcast. September is a great time to travel, especially because it's my birthday in September, especially internationally. Because in the past, we've stayed in some pretty awesome Airbnbs in Europe. Did we've one in France, we've one in Greece,

we've actually won in Italy a couple of years ago. Anyway, it just made our trip feel extra special. So if you're heading out this month, consider hosting your home on Airbnb with the co-host feature you can hire someone local to help manage everything. Find a co-host at Airbnb.ca slash host. I'm Jorge Ramos. And I'm Paola Ramos.

Together we're launching The Moment, a new podcast about what it means to live through a time, as uncertain as this one. We sit down with politicians, artists, and activists to bring you death and analysis from a unique Latino perspective. The Moment is a space for the conversations we've been having us father and daughter for years. Listen to The Moment with Jorge Ramos and Paola Ramos

on the IHeart Radio app, podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Introducing IVF Disrupted, the Kind Body Story, a podcast about a company that promised to revolutionize fertility care. It grew like a tech startup. While Kind Body did help women start families, it also left behind a stream of disillusioned and angry patients. You think you're finally like in the right hands.

You're just not. Listen to IVF Disrupted, the Kind Body Story on the IHeart Radio app, Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Kate Hudson. And my name is Oliver Hudson. We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationship. And what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling rivalry.

No, no. Sibling rivalry. Don't do that with your mouth. sibling revelry that's good Lisa Ling Lisa Ling

And her sister And her sister You gotta work on your melodies Lisa Ling That's my signature It's the only melody you have ever sang in your life That's my signature melody

Lisa Ling And her sister I loved this episode. I loved sitting with them. Yeah, because she's a pro. They're both, they're pros. I mean. Well, also her sister's story, I didn't know how to sort of broach it or when to bring it up or if it was okay to bring up. I think it was interesting. I mean, they wrote the book about Laura's kidnapping. But when someone's experienced that kind of trauma and someone's been through something that is so deeply terrifying, it's hard. It was hard. It was hard. I was hard.

What do you ask? You're like, so were you? How was it? I know. That's kind of what it was. I know, I know. And because we don't really do this for a living, we're learning how to interview people. We're learning how to get it.

It's not our learned profession. There were a few questions that I asked where she was, like, took big pauses and I was like, oh, did I cross a line of some kind? I didn't know whether it was okay to ask. certain specific questions because you know me i'm i'm a detail oriented person i love the the tiny little details of things and so i wanted to get even deeper into a few sort of scenarios but i didn't want to press you know but talking to lisa though is interesting about her reaction to it and how what kind of a mode she went into when you know her sister her partner in crime

this person who she has shared her entire life with their not only sisters but there's some there's a deep spiritual bond that these two have and when this happened hearing her reaction no i know it you they're very self-sufficient people they had to learn how to be self-sufficient so early so they only had each other to they took care of each other and lisa really took care of her sister when she was younger. It's a very sweet story their sibling relationship. I think that one of the things I noticed from it was that they grew up pretty much unattended and they ended up becoming such incredibly grounded women. Whereas in that environment, it could have gone completely the other way having no parental guidance. And instead, they just...

strong, strong women. So Lisa, yeah, she's an award-winning journalist. She's hosting the CNN series, This Is Life, which you've seen a lot of, a lot of. Love it. A lot of it. And she also worked as a correspondent on the Oprah Winfrey show, co-host on The View. That's actually when I met her first. I mean, that was years ago when we were both super young.

And she started like 18 years old working at Channel 1, going to Afghanistan. traveling the world. Laura, same thing, award-winning journalist, reported on topics like slave labor in the Amazon, women's rights in the Middle East. She's very much invested in human rights. Humanitarian stuff, yeah, and fearless. They're both so fearless. So then they wrote their book called Somewhere Inside One's Sister's Captivity in North Korea and the others fight to bring her home. We loved having them here. And they were awesome. So here we go. Enjoy. Enjoy.

Lisa and Laura. Laura and Lisa. First of all, welcome. We're so happy. You guys are here. This is so great. We've been having so much fun doing this. We've been, it's a different continent of dynamic.

We don't do this for living. You guys do. So what I find intriguing about that is, I mean, I know as an actor, I have that desire to try to understand different human behavior. And that, I think, is really what sparks me to be a storyteller. But let's start with you, Lisa, like what initiated this curiosity to venture off in this career path? So Laura and I grew up in a town outside of Sacramento, California, called Carmichael. And it was not a very diverse place. And we didn't have a lot of money. Our parents got a divorce when I was seven, Laura was four, and we really never got a chance to travel that much.

But yet, I think both of us have always had like a pretty insatiable curiosity. And so the TV was our favorite babysitter. It was on in our home all the time. And so I thought if I could somehow get on TV, maybe I could have a better life one day. And I had found out about auditions at a local mall for a teen magazine show. I did it. I got hired. But it wasn't until I started working. I got hired because I'd had that TV experience, I got hired to report for a show that was seen in middle schools and high schools across the country called Channel One News. In fact, Anderson Cooper from CNN was one of my colleagues

there. And that show, because it was seen in schools, they hired a bunch of young looking correspondents to deliver the news and to send out into the world to cover stories. How old were you? I was only 18 when I started. Channel 1. And for a kid who had never gotten a chance to really travel much, it was the most eye-opening experience you could imagine. And so I was sent to cover stories. I was sent to cover the Russian referendum elections. I was sent to cover stories about the drug wars in South America, stories about globalization in India and China. And one year, this is a couple years after I'd started, they sent me to cover the Civil War in Afghanistan. They asked me if I wanted to cover

the Civil War in Afghanistan, and we'd be going in with the Red Cross, and so I felt fairly secure going in with them, and so I agreed. And I'm 21 years old at the time. And from the moment we descended from the steps of the Red Cross plane, I was just in this state of shock by the scene that greeted me on the ground. I was immediately surrounded by throngs of young boys who looked no more than 10 years old, who were carrying Galashnikovs and RPGs and weapons that that were larger than they were. And it was at that moment or during that experience that I realized that I wanted to continue doing this kind of work, not because I wanted to be on TV to have a better life, but because I knew as a young person that our country, the U.S. was so involved in Afghanistan

throughout the 1980s, but that no one in my world knew that this scene existed in the world, knew that there were thousands of young boys who were harboring these weapons that were possibly even paid for by the United States. And that experience really propelled me to want to communicate stories about things that were happening in the world to a wider audience. And I got that travel bug, you know, and it just, it was such a world that was so foreign, so foreign from mine. Like never in my wildest dreams, did I ever expect I would see something like that? And it was almost like this divine kind of communication to me that this is what I was supposed to do. What about the fear factor?

Oh, it was terrifying. Terrifying. Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, we traveled to the front lines of the Civil War there and it was terrifying. But it was this like sense of adrenaline that I had never experienced before. And I, you know, I wouldn't. It's quite sexy, isn't it? That's what I have a friend who says that.

there's something actually quite sexy about it, maybe not as it's happening, but sort of the world inside of it, when you live with that sort of adrenaline and you know that these things that you're doing are really important, you meet the most interesting people on the field. You know what it is, Kate, it's, I would not say that I'm an adrenaline junkie by any means, but I've always since that experienced, really recognize those moments when I feel alive. You know, like, I think we go through our days. Most of us can't even remember what we did yesterday, right? Because things kind of become perfunctory after a while, right?

When you're in the world and you're not just visiting touristy destinations, right? You're like immersed in someone else's life. Your senses are so heightened. You're thinking so much more sort of strongly, right? And you are just totally aware of your surroundings. And I'm not just talking about war zones, just anywhere out. outside of your comfort zone, I like that feeling. Like, I like to feel all of those things. And, you know, unfortunately, we've gotten to a place where we just don't really like to feel

anymore. I think that's really, I mean, I was, I was afraid to, like, go to Melrose. You're still afraid to go to Melrose. I mean, when I was that age, I was scared to go to, like, Martel and Melrose because that was, like, scary to me. It's still fearful for you to cross the 405, and you, you live right by the 405. So, I mean, I'm making. I'm making. this assumption, but I would think just based on my relationships with my siblings, that Lisa's, you know, entrance into this world, she's 18 years old, which means you're three years younger. So that must have been really inspiring for you. And you must have looked up to that in a sense when you were younger. Absolutely. I mean, Lisa talks about how she, when we were watching TV, she looked at Connie Chung, who was the closest person that she could identify with that looked like her. was doing these amazing things. And for me, I guess my Connie Chung was Lisa Ling, my sister. And I'm getting so emotional.

Oh, that's sweet, though. But this is what happened. We cry all the time. But so I was at UCLA when Lisa was in Afghanistan. And I remember when she came back and told me about this country where I really couldn't, like most people, identify on a map. And when she told me the story about what she had seen and I could see how affected she was by it, I was just, I was like, I want to do that too. And so I actually thought I was going to go into print reporting. I was working for a researcher for the L.A. Times. But I could also see how television at the time was the dominant medium for people of our generation. And so then I just sort of followed in Lisa's footsteps and I started working as a researcher

and working my way up and in the business and having the, and eventually got the opportunity to, you know, travel around the world and cover issues of many of the issues that I covered have had to do with freedom and human rights. And then, you know, of course, I experienced my own loss of freedom. And so it has just given me a greater appreciation for, you know, the liberties that we have. Do you think, though, that this sort of desire, you know, this, it feels like this was like an internal fire. I understand that TV was the impetus, which I guess the lesson is here lets your kids watch as much TV. Right? Because look, look what TV did for the Ling sisters. It's different from, by the way, different from unfettered access to the internet, which we are not into.

But, like, TV can be, you know, the babysitter, the babysitter, look what the, but, but, but, but what I'm saying is, is do you think that it was, so going back to sort of growing up as, as kids, I mean, do you think that this was instilled? Do you think that your parents were part of the reason that this is who you are, you know, or is this something that is separate from how you were raised and grew up? It's funny to think about that because Laura and I kind of raised each other because our parents were divorced when we were so young and our dad worked all the time. Our grandmother was there, but she was starting to become very senile and, you know, develop dementia. And so I kind of took took it upon myself to raise Laura. And I think that's one of the reasons why we are so close. I mean, I honestly don't know very many siblings who. are as close, who have been as close as the two of us.

And I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that I kind of saw her as my kid. Like I threw a birthday party for her because our parents weren't around to do that. And divorce is always devastating for young kids. But in some ways now in retrospect, I think it could have been one of the best things that could have ever happened to us because we got to experience two people who shouldn't shouldn't have ever been together in the first place, independent of one another, and there wasn't that constant friction and tension in the house. But it also forced us to become so much more independent. And I think actually that had a lot to do with it. We would visit my, our mom

moved to Los Angeles when we were kids. And it's funny that you were afraid of going to Melrose because my mom was like in L.A. trying to hustle. And so she would just drop us off on Melrose. When we were young kids. They would spend all day on Melrose and we loved it. Oh, my God. But I think that coming from Sacramento, California, which couldn't be more different than Melrose, we were just, I mean, it was the best.

And so Melrose Avenue was almost like our exposure to, you know, a different life in a different culture. We would just go to stores. We'd hang out. out in the little cafe. Oh, I eventually ended up selling choker necklaces that I made in my spare time on Monroe's Avenue. That's amazing. And were you guys living together?

Or as a family, you guys were all under the same roof? Yes, the two of us were together almost always when we were young. I mean, Laura eventually moved to live in L.A. with my mom later on when she was in the latter part of high school. But for the most part, we lived in Carmichael. during the school year, and in the summer we'd come to L.A. to stay with her mom. So you were mostly with your grandma. And where was dad? Dad was working all the time. But in Sacramento. We lived with our dad and our grandma.

So you probably see him, you saw him more than you saw mom. Yes, we did. But he worked the graveyard shift, which means that he left at 2 o'clock in the afternoon and then wouldn't come home until like 11 or 12 o'clock at night. So we would see him on the weekend and in the mornings. We really did raise ourselves. But, and even though our parents had nothing to do with the media, our mom did want to expose us to other cultures. And I remember our first trip we took, international trip, was to Hong Kong. I'd never experienced humidity before. When I walked off that plane, I thought that it was like the engines of the plane that we're still worrying that was making that, giving me that feeling. I said, Mom, what is this going

on? And that was humidity for me. Those first time experienced humidity. But just being in Hong Kong opened our eyes to another world. So I think that our mom did want us to travel. And that was also kind of like the start of something for us. She wasn't there day to day with us, but it was because she was really working to try and give us experiences. And, you know, as hard as, Is it what the divorce was for us? Like, we love our dad. What was? Just not having our parents around for really anything, you know?

I mean, because my dad, our dad worked all the time and our mom was living in L.A. So that was really challenging, you know. I mean, we literally, I can't remember. I mean, incredibly challenging. Yeah, I can't remember them. I mean, you look at your own kids as we, as all parents do. You want to emulate certain things about your parents and then you don't want to emulate certain things. But when you grow up like that, I mean, that is beyond.

and challenging and probably traumatic at times. I get devastated if I miss a brownie meeting now. Oh, I know. Well, see, because we're products of divorce, I guess, you know, products. It's a strange word to say. But yes, we come from a divorced family. But I go the other way. I have now become hyperdad where I feel like if I am not around for one little thing

that he's going to have abandonment issues, he's going to be in therapy for 25 years, you know, because I missed a drop off or I missed like a hot lunch, you know. So I'm dealing with that. And I think that's something, you know, once you do grow up and, you know, achieve a certain kind of, I guess, a level of success and you can provide for your children what you never got as a kid, you do become hyper sort of vigilant about those things. And I think part of the reason why Laura and I became as ambitious as we have become is because we struggled. But at the same time, like, what we would have done to have had our, had our parents at our, you know, like, come to our events and all that stuff. And, like, thinking back on, you know, prom and having, you know, an aunt, like, have to take me out. Like, what we would have done to have had our parents involved with that.

I took Lisa's prom pictures. You did? Yeah. Yeah. When she would, you know, her date would pick her up and I would be there to take her picture. I know. But do you get? It does not mean that we're not close to our parents or don't appreciate them.

I mean, they were, you know, as immigrant parents, they were working all the time. Well, it sounds circumstantial, you know, rather than sort of I'm leaving you, I don't want anything to do with you. You know, there's a circumstantial aspect to it that maybe makes it a little easier. I also think, and let's add some perspective on this, too, because your parents, your, was it your mother grew up in Taiwan and dad was Hong Kong, right? And then there, but they were really sort of brought together through, it was almost like an arranged marriage. It was. It was. Yeah. You know, and, and then when did they come to the States? So my dad was here. They met here in the States. But my mom, when she got to this country, didn't speak a word of English or Cantonese, which is the, the language my dad grew up speaking. So they communicated. I don't know how they communicated in the beginning. But my dad dated Caucasian women. And that was not cool for his parents.

And so they kind of pushed him to marry my mom, who was this beautiful Taiwanese woman. And of course, now we understand why it didn't work. They couldn't have been more different. But when you're a kid and all of your friend's parents are together, I mean, we didn't know of many families that were divorced when we were growing up. It was just, and your parents are immigrants. What was there, also, what was their relationship like to their parents? Did they have a good relationship? I mean, was your father?

Because your grandmother that was there with you guys a lot was your father's mother. And what was that relationship like? Was it loving? Was it affectionate? Or was it very much like we get our job done, we work hard, and we. And love is secondary. And love, right. I think it was both with regard.

to our dad. Like he worked a lot, but he also was a very devoted son. I mean, he took care of our grandmother until the very end. He had plenty of girlfriends when we were growing up, but he never got married because we were always his first priority. And so was our grandmother. And by the way, our mom never remarried either because, yeah, because she was dating someone who lived in Hong Kong, which is why we went there. And she wouldn't marry him because she didn't want to be far away from us. So they made a lot of sacrifices. And our dad, even though he worked all the time, like, he was very affectionate. I remember he'd come home from work at like 11, 12 o'clock at night.

We'd be in our beds. But I remember he had a mustache, and I remember him, like, I would feel his mustache hair, like, kiss me on the cheek, getting in the middle of the night when he came home from work. And so they were very, they tried their best, you know. And you're right, it was circumstantial. And even with our mom, even though as kids, we didn't understand why she wasn't with her. us all the time. When we took the time to understand what her background was like, it made a lot of things a lot clearer for us because she really grew up in a completely messed up home life. I mean, you know, her father had two concubines and had God knows how many kids. So she was one

of, I don't know, over 20 kids. And so she didn't have any relationship with her father at all. He would basically pat her on the head whenever he'd see her. And her mom was just so depressed that she'd never showed affection. So I think for both of us, after we really took the time to understand our parents' past, that really helped us appreciate the sacrifices they were making for us. Well, it also seems like you guys became each other's emotional saviors in a way. You know what I mean? Because you were the – you guys were able to experience and express love that you

your parents weren't able to give you. You guys almost figured it out on your own. You know, thank God you guys had each other. Yeah. You know. What did your house look like that you grew up in? How would you describe it? I mean, it was kind of like typical.

Yeah, middle class. It was a two-story house. But, you know, we were, we took care of the house. So, and our dad wasn't the neatest person. So, I mean, we were kids kind of taken care of every. Everything. The only thing that we never learned how to do is cook because our grandmother cooked. But yeah, we didn't like to have friends over a lot because it was... They would make fun of us because our house always smelled like fried rice. Yeah. And, you know, like everything, everything was old because when my mom, you know, moved, my dad really didn't care. So everything like, I remember the curtains were just like hanging there. They just, everything was old and, you know, moved. You know, moved. My dad really didn't care. So everything like, I remember the curtains were just like hanging there. They just, you know, know, just not very, very nice. Did you share a room?

We did. Do you still share a room? Actually, whenever we're together, we do. We always want to sleep in the same room. We actually do. Yeah, always. Yeah. We're actually traveling for an event tomorrow, and, you know, they said, oh, we got a room

for each of you. And we're like, no, we've, just one room's fine. That's, I mean. I wish we were that close. Geez. What's your age difference? We are. We're about three.

We're three years. Two and three quarters, you know. But we had a very different type of relationship growing up. Yeah. Totally different. Yeah. Yes. More of a push and pull type of really, well, more just push.

Our father was just not dependable in any way. And I like kind of remember it, but I don't. I almost sometimes wonder if I remember it because I've been told the story so many times. But I feel like I have a very visceral. memory of this moment where Oliver, my dad was, our dad was supposed to pick us up and never showed up. And Oliver did not leave the doorway for hours. Like he just sat there, like, waiting for dad. It was a perfect metaphor for him still. That should be his memoir, waiting for dad. Waiting for dad. Still waiting. Still waiting. But, but, but, you know, and Bill, you know, as

get older, you realize, you know, as you do, you realize where they come from, you realize what their challenges were or why they ended up repeating some of the same patterns and things, and you find forgiveness. Yes, which I have. I've had come to Jesus moments with my dad and we actually are communicating now, you know, through text. But it's hard for him. You know, it's really hard. We've had lunch a couple times, but I'll text him saying, let's get together and he won't text back. And I don't, it's not, I don't take it personally anymore. You know, there's something deeper. But you know, it's in the work that we do, you know, in my show, I can't tell you how many people I interview and they are the way they are or they've, you know, kind of, um, descended into

like these pits so often because of something that happened in their childhood. And when their, their parents just weren't there for them, when they needed that, like they needed that support or They just needed that, like, sense of reassurance. It's also about, like, self-regulating. We just don't understand that as children. I mean, now we start realizing with kids the importance of social and emotional learning and teaching kids that don't have the tools from their parents to understand it themselves. But you think about it, like just even 10, 15 years ago, we weren't talking about a lot of these things.

And even us as kids with the most amazing mother who wanted nothing but everything. everything for us to be good and a great stepdad. You know, you still come from a very privileged background, but here we are experiencing the worst kind of neglect and abandonment that affects you, however it's going to affect you. And it's funny because I think for us, it's one of those things that you don't ever talk about because you feel like because you grew up in some kind of privilege that nobody really will relate. It doesn't matter. Right. It doesn't matter what your own. But it does, I think, make Oliver and I very curious about the importance of, like, love and a connective family. I mean, we are an incredibly close family, even through all the

shit that we've been through. And you realize, like, at the end of the day, this relationship that we have is everything. And it's everything that we can to, like, be the best version of ourselves in the world is what we're, and how we're living and communicating together now. Yeah, I mean, irrespective of how you grew up, right? Laura and I, if we didn't have each other, things could have turned out much, much differently. And for the two of you, the same thing. You know, you were really lucky that you at least had someone who could commiserate or who could understand, you know, exactly that moment when you were experiencing that, why you were feeling that way. Yeah, and it's different. There was a handful of times. Like, my first heartbreak with Oliver, you know,

My very first heartbreak was devastating. And I remember I was like sobbing in my room. And Oliver was the one who sort of held me for a good hour to like tell me it was okay. I never had that with any man but Oliver, really. So there were moments. I'm pretty great. You've got great moments. Let's face it.

She said there were five. Let's be honest. By the by Oliver, I will be calling you. When I'm going through something, just be sure. So how often did you see mom? Well, she came back to visit us probably once or twice a month, and we talked on the phone every single day. And we would spend the entire summer.

Yeah, so she was very much a part of our lives. And then you moved to mom and you stayed up with dad, right? Yes. And how was that for you guys? Why, first of all? Just because I was still in high school and Lisa was working. So how was that, though, because you guys were so close. It was devastating.

I mean, I can't even imagine now that I get in a little more insight. I mean, you guys relied on each other so much as support. Like, once that's fractured, how does that feel? How did that work out? Well, it was devastating. But I think it also allowed me, who, you know, Lisa was kind of this mother figure for me, allowed me to sort of become a little bit more independent. But Lisa was also the sort of more rebellious one, correct?

That is correct. Yes, that's true. So she was more of the mother figure, but I've definitely more, like, the more mature one right right so she probably right okay just want to get some perspective of that too were you like a wild child i was pretty wild yeah yeah but like i always like out drinking and doing all the crazy stuff i i partied and i had a good time but i you know i've always been pretty good at like compartmentalizing things so i knew that i had to study hard in school and i you know i had to to to perform form well. So I think, again, I think because we didn't grow up with parents in the home all

the time, we just learned how to become responsible for what we had to do. So while I had a really good time, I always kind of knew where the line was. And I didn't cross it. Because it could go the total opposite way. I mean, you had no authoritative figure sort of guiding you in that sense. I mean, grandma. We did. Well, we, we, we, I, I do have to say our grandma who was ultra, like she was a religious zealot, very highly educated woman, you know, even spoke like British English because she, she, she went to school and, and, and studied at Cambridge. But she was so religious that at Halloween, she would tear down our decorations and make us sing hymns while people were bringing the doorbell wanting to trick a treat. Like that's how

religious is. But I think in a strange way, she instilled like the fear of God in us. Okay. So that while we partied, we kind of like subconsciously like always had that line because she imposed that on us. I really do. You know, we, we discount her sometimes because she was starting to become very senile. But she did play a very big role in our lives. She basically put the fear of God into you. Oh, for sure. Literally. And kind of like instilling certain values at a very young age.

I mean, she would sit us down and we would have to sit through Bible study with her before we could go out and play with our friends. Wow. When we were really young, because then she started to, you know, lose it. Are you, but your guys aren't religious now, or are you? I'm not religious at all. No. I was going, this is one of my questions is I bet going into the field and doing what it is that you do.

must be really challenging to sort of religion. And I would just say that it plays such a big part in so many conflicts that as a reporter or as someone who's bringing these things to the forefront, it must be a very challenging relationship to have. So I have shunned evangelical Christianity because of my experience as a young person. However, I am very, very connected to God. I have my own personal relationship with God, and I even channel some of the prophets, including Jesus Christ, in my work sometimes, because I just think that he was such a cool guy who walked the earth, who was the most selfless, non-judgmental, loving, kind, pure human being that I actually think about him in my work all the time. Thank you. But I don't.

But I, what are you talking about me? Oliver Hudson. Oh, yeah. All the time. But I don't subscribe to any. But do you believe in? I would, I would say the same thing. I mean, I do talk to a God.

A God. I'm not religious. Is it God in the Christian form? I don't know. To me, it's a creator. Yeah, I don't, just the creator. Right. Yeah.

I mean, in some very. at dark moments, I have talked to God, and I have felt a certain presence there. I definitely, I can't wait to get to that part. We don't have to get to that part. No, I know. I'm so, well, but this is such a huge part of your guy's relationship. I mean, there's one thing Lisa goes to Los Angeles, but then your sister goes to do her work and gets taken.

I don't even know what that must have felt like for you. Well, you got that phone call, right? I mean, I read a little bit about it. Yeah, so it was 2009, and Laura and I had spoken about her wanting to go report on a story about North Korea and refugees in South Korea and China. And there was never any mention about going into North Korea. And so I thought, I didn't even think twice about it. I mean, she had gone to cover a story about drug trafficking in Mexico. a couple of months prior. And I was actually terrified about her going and doing that.

That's scary. I mean, that's, oh my God. How was, how was that? I mean, aside from North Korea, just, yeah, I mean, well, I mean, the, just the, the level and method of drug-related killings at that time was out of control. It has simmered a little bit since then, but it was crazy. I mean, I was driving around, um, witnessing the aftermath of, murder after murder after murder every single day. So, of course, I was terrified about it. Yeah, and it's true. So for that story on the Drug Board in Mexico, I was certainly concerned about my physical well-being.

And getting back from that story, there was a sense of relief that everything had gone fine. And so the story in northeastern China was a sensitive story, but it was sensitive in terms of the people we were interviewing in China. and sort of like their safety and concealing their identities and such. But I didn't feel as if it was going to be such a, there was going to be such a huge risk to me personally. And of course, that all changed.

But even when you're in Mexico, though, just, again, it's just getting to the psychology of it, but the story is so important to you that you are willing to sort of say, fuck it. I'm going to go to Mexico to expose this. To expose what's happening. Yes. But I don't think we we really say fuck it. We say what can we do to ensure that we have taken every precaution for ourselves and others. And so once you analyze the risk and try to mitigate the risk as much as you possibly can, you feel more comfortable going into a situation. because you're prepared.

But I also, you know, life is so random. I mean, we could walk out into the street in 20 minutes from now and get shot or get hit by a car. And I say this, it's like, I'm going into Mexico for a few days to cover the situation that people are living through every single day. So they're the ones that have to go to the supermarket and they don't know if they come outside if there's going to be a mass shooting or not. a simple trip to the supermarket that we take every day without worry. So that's what you have to. That's what I think about as well. So you go to Mexico, you come back, you go now to South Korea and China and South Korea.

And then when was that decision? So what happens? How did we end up being held captive in North Korea? Exactly. I know. I listened to the NPR. Well, so we were filming one day along the river that separates North Korea and China, and the river was frozen. And so we stepped onto that

frozen ice, like many people do when they were fleeing, when they're defecting from North Korea or being smuggled or trafficked across. And our guide, we had a local guide there, and he walked toward the other side and motioned for us to follow him, and we did. And we were there for just not even more than a minute, and we turned around and we left. And that's when two North Korean soldiers appeared and started chasing us. Because you knew. I mean, you were like, we should not be over here. Well, the thing is, just I'll have to interject, you know, when reporters go overseas, they often hire fixers who have had experiences with other television crews, with other media before. And so this man was no different from so many of the fixers that we hire all over the world.

You trusted that you were going into an area that would have been. Yeah, I mean, of course. I mean, this is the border. So it is not. We know that it is a sensitive area. You know, having said that there were other reporters, have been other reporters in the past who have even made small talk with North Korean soldiers. I mean, we still have reasoned believe that that fixer was paid off. So Laura and her colleague were high, they were high value targets. They worked for Al Gore's media company.

So this is the difference that we have as sisters. So that's, Lisa, Lisa does believe that. And that may be the case, but I choose not to even think about that. I feel as if, I really cannot blame anyone but myself for my actions. that day. So I followed our guide. No one forced me to follow him. I did it. It was my instincts,

instincts that I had relied on throughout my career, instincts that have kept me safe. And on that day, my instincts failed me. Did you have any moment where you were questioning their instincts, where you said, something doesn't feel right, but I'm going to trust anyway? Yes. Yes. So our guide was making these kind of odd sounds. He was kind of like making these hooting sounds on the ice while we were standing on that ice. He was trying to attract the attention of the guards. I mean, I, I, I, I mean, we're getting, we're getting into the, the minute details of it. But, um, I thought he could have been trying to connect with a North Korean soldier that he did know that might want to talk to us because he had told us previously that he had connections in,

you know, there. And so it, you know, you can interpret it so many different. ways. And that's why I say, I don't really want to interpret it any other way than to just take responsibility for my actions. And I'm the one that had to deal with the consequences of it. So anyway, so soldiers chased us back into China. And then I was pretty violently beaten and then dragged into North Korea at that point. Crazy. So crazy. Yeah, with the butt of a gun. So you were taken into North Korea and where did they take you? What was the first thing that happened? We were taken to an army base and then transferred then to a, on the first day, we were transferred

to a total of three different locations, all army bases, eventually to a location where we were put in separate cells. And you stayed in the cell? for for how long yeah um we were at that location for a few days i think it was about two or three days um and they were you know it was very it was like a five foot by six foot pitch black cell um oh yeah so crazy and so again i i read i heard i listened to sort of this npr and heard a little bit about it but for you again as her sister did emotion immediately spring up or was it more more of, okay, this has happened. I'm in this world. I understand it. I need to sort of put that

aside for a second and fix this. You know, I actually did not, when I first got the call that she had been abducted, it was her husband, Laura's husband calling me in the middle of the night because the producer who was with them had escaped. And so he communicated to Laura's husband who called me. And I remember him saying, Laura's been abducted by North Korean officials. And of course, it sent panic through my, you know, my body. But I thought, well, hopefully we can just, you know, they can make some calls, figure it out, and they will be released. because I just I didn't I didn't I didn't think that they would hold them as long as they would now we hadn't talked that much about what she was working on so I certainly did think well if they

if they find you know the tapes and they see that they had been talking to refugees then you know there could be problems but it was it was a it was a sense of shock but I was still hopeful that we might be able to communicate with the Chinese government. We didn't know the story. We didn't know anything. We hadn't talked to the producer yet. So, yeah. So I remember this so vividly when this all happened.

And so for you, you were there for how long? Nearly five months. So five months. And overall, in terms of how you, would you feel like how you were treated, what would be kind of your description of that? Yeah, I think that. The five months, it was really a roller coaster of emotions and experiences. So it was

sheer terror to moments of hope. And there were moments of, I was treated humanely. And you know, for that I'm very grateful. I was certainly scared that I might have to spend a very long time there, perhaps the rest of my life. But I was treated humanely once they had me in sort of their possession and I do like to talk about the glimmers of compassion and humanity that I also experienced

in exchanges with my guards and how we have very preconceived notions of who the North Koreans are and they have preconceived notions of us but after some of those barriers were sort of broken down that I think that my captors and I were able to see each other

in a different light. Were you able to communicate with them? I mean did speak English? There was always one guard assigned to me that spoke at least a little bit of English. I also had an interpreter who was always with the interrogator who had come to question me and he spoke impeccable English. Okay. And so, yeah, I mean, I don't, I don't mean to like shamelessly plug the book that we wrote. But the way that Laura described and writes about those interactions with these other human beings, granted, they were. Their job was to make sure that she did not escape.

They were guarding her. But they're so important, I think, to recognize the humanity in human beings. And for that, I remember when Laura was held there. I said to my husband, I said, I know that Laura is somehow going to win them over. And if she ever gets out of there, they're going to miss her and they're going to remember her. Because that's just who Laura is. Like, I've never known anyone who's ever even thought something negative about my sister. And I'm glad it wasn't me who was there because I would probably still be there.

No, but it's such an amazing, it's just an amazing, it's just who you are to see the good and the compassion and humanity. You know, because it is the truth. I mean, we all have, we are. empathetic. We do have compassion. We are, we know, these guards, these people who you were dealing with, you could see through some of sort of their rigor, I guess, and really understand them as a human being. I think that what a lot of us tend to do is sort of stay within our own silos. And when we can just take the chance to get out of those silos and just understand where each other's coming from, people from opposite

ends of the world who have, who view each other perhaps as enemies. This doesn't have to apply to the U.S. and North Korea to comply to anything that's going on within our country right now, right? But if we take that chance to engage with people that we consider different, maybe even our opposites, then we can sort of find a common humanity. I mean, Laura tells us, in incredible story about, you know, she and her colleague were sentenced to 12 years hard labor when they were there. And when the news went out, her captor was the woman who had been in your room was kind of shocked and almost like disappointed in her country that they had handed down this harsh sentence. And it was just like a really kind of moving moment that you two

shared together. And again, like I think what I admire about what Laura did there was, you know, our two countries, the U.S. and North Korea have had this contentious relationship forever, right? But she knew that these captors, all the people she interacted with have been raised believing that Americans were the enemy, right? That they were actively at war with the United States. And so I think Laura pretty masterfully kind of decided. Like, I want to show them a different side of being an American and just kind of killed them with kindness. And so as a result, this kind of really poignant relationship evolved that is just, you know, I still, I just think about how heartening that was. Were you ever aware of the communication that was going on between North Korea and America?

I was so let's see Lisa and I I was allowed to receive letters every now and again and so I would get information through those letters and I knew that if I could but I wasn't allowed to send letters out I sent one initial letter out but I knew that if I could just talk to my sister that she could help make something happen you know it's that sibling thing you know because because obviously every letter that we ever sent, we knew that she would not be the only person looking them. We knew that there would be other eyes on them. And so I think Laura also knew that if she were able to contact me, like we just, we are in each other's heads that whatever she said to me, I would understand what she was trying to communicate. And in fact, the very first call that she was able to make to me because she convinced her captors, if you let me call my sister, we can we can try to get something done the first time i heard her voice and this was like three months into her captivity i heard her voice and i was just like i was so overwhelmed and i was just

like i wanted to know how she was and she just said lisa we don't have time to talk about that right now you know this is serious and we need to talk about you know we need to figure something out and i could just i i could tell at that moment there was probably someone right next to her um i could just i i knew And I said to her on the phone, I said, we have just been quiet about this. We haven't talked to the press. We're just trying to lay low. And she said, it's been too quiet. And I just, I knew at that moment that it was time to raise the profile that we had to get in front of the press.

And I also knew that she was dealing with a country, that we were dealing with a country that is highly sensitive to how the public views. And so, yeah, and so we just, we sort of deployed this PR strategy that was like just super, like, just in such difference to the North Korean government, apologetic that we took the onus on ourselves for making this egregious mistake and, and we begged for mercy. Like, we did not want to do anything that would offend the North Korean government, even though North Korea violated China's sovereignty by crossing over into China and dragging them out of the country. Right. I was going to ask about that. We could never say that because we did not want to piss off the North Korean government because they held the cards.

So now when you talk about those things, do you ever get concerned that there would be some sort of backlash? I don't think so. I mean, I sometimes I get people ask if I suffer from PTSD or anything like that. And, you know, sometimes I'll get a nightmare or a panic attack. But I do think that the message that I have come back with and what I try to convey is this deeper sense of humanity. So yes, I do not want to forget the egregious human rights abuses that take place in North Korea and the people who are suffering because too often the conversation is about the politics, it's about the nuclear situation, and the people. get lost in that conversation. But that's why I like to direct it back to the humanity and the, the connections that I was able to make with the people.

And so I feel like my overall message that I've come back with is just one of wanting to build a deeper connection for those that we see through such a different lens. Did you have to go into like survival mode from an emotional, psychological standpoint? You know, I mean, did you meditate? Did you, you know, really go within? Because I can't, I mean, how do you survive that? So at first I, at first I didn't. At first, every single minute felt like an eternity.

And I just sat around depressed. There were times when I did think about taking my own life. It was a very, very dark place. But I also thought that if I was going to get through that situation, I would have to change the way I was thinking and I would have to start trying to like help determine my own fate. And so from that point on, it was like kind of a very simple shift in thinking.

I went from I can't do this. I'm going to die here to, okay, I can do this. I can handle this. I have to work to make something happen. And so just that kind of slight change in perspective changed everything for me. I meditated and I exercised every single chance I could to keep kind of my energy up and I strategize and strategize. So when Lisa talked about that first phone call and she was so emotional and my God, like hearing her voice on the other line, it just, you know, my heart was just exploding.

But at the same time, I knew that I had just a limited amount of time to talk to her and that that time could be cut off at any moment. And so I needed to use every second, every breath that I had to make sure that I was conveying what I thought was necessary to help our situation. So what happened to you when you hung up the phone and then had went back into time alone? Like was that was that what did you have like a I know if it was if I could only put try to put myself in you for me if I had that moment I finally was able to talk to someone in my family that I'd just lose it. Yeah. I did lose it. I mean, every sort of like human communication, it really, it was with my family, of course, but even like just having bright moments of communication with anybody was a comfort to me. But when I, after I first spoke with my sister and I also got to speak with my husband, it's hard to describe the feeling. But I knew that I just had to keep like strategizing again to figure out like, okay. okay, what do I have to do next? How can I make it to the next call? And what do I have to do or convey on that next call so that I can keep moving this forward?

Do you remember your meditations? I mean, do you remember what, when you would get quiet and close your eyes and go to the place that was of comfort? Do you remember those? Well, I started practicing one of the things that I did, and I did many things. But one of the things that I did was practice the act of gratitude. And so this was a ritual that I would practice every evening. I would sit cross-legged. And I would think about some things that happened in that day that I felt grateful for.

So I would say, I feel grateful. I saw a butterfly outside my window, even though I can't breathe the fresh air. I feel grateful. I heard music today. You know, perhaps I was allowed to watch some television and there was a song that I heard. It would be thinking about those little things. And that really brought me a sense of peace and a sense of hope. and it's something that is a ritual that I continue to do to this day.

So I, especially in gratitude about like the meager bits of food that you got because you know it was probably more than a lot of North Koreans were getting. Oh, yeah, I said that every night. I would say I feel grateful I got three meals today, even though the portions were meager because they were probably more than what the average North Korean was getting. And by doing, continuing to do this and practice this ritual to this day, I find that it can sort of add us.

certain rhythm into our lives during very chaotic, stressful moments. It can allow us to just feel a little bit more centered and focused and just a greater sense of peace. But when you think about it, we're constantly spending our day thinking about what we don't have, right? And social media makes it so much worse because it's like you're looking constantly at things that everybody else has and fake things that people have. Yeah.

But, you know, like it's, it is what it is, right? It makes you feel like you should be doing more. You could be doing so much And then you look at Instagram When you're like Should I be doing more? Is it more that I I don't even look at Instagram anymore

I go on a post whatever I'm going to post Because it's like a weird outlet for me Just because I can truly sort of be my insane self I don't know why I feel that way And then I don't look at the feeds or anything I post and then I'm out It's too nuts It is it is

But you know we're constantly thinking about what we don't have And how often do we just think during our day like what we about what we do have right it's just like so for the five for the five months that that she was that she was in north korea were you able to have a great day one day i mean were you able to sort of be to laugh and have glasses of wine and actually participate in your own life or was it too heavy you know yeah i mean i i mean i i may i don't remember any of those days at all. And again, I'm someone who likes to remember every day. It was, it was pretty much a cloud. And I, I started having nightmares. I, um, I would just wait by the phone. Like, I just had

my phone on me at all times. And if I ever missed a call from somewhere, I would just go into like a little depression. Yeah. Because I felt like I missed a call. And Lord, did you ever have dreams? Did you ever miss, did she ever miss a call? I think I did. I think I was like in the bathroom. or something when I missed a call. Yeah, I think so, but I think that I... You were able to call me back, yeah, like pretty soon, like within minutes. But, I mean, yeah, that was pretty kind of miraculous, actually. But, yeah, I couldn't really work because I couldn't focus on what I was doing.

And our parents were just a disaster. How did you tell mom and dad? I mean, I called them and I had to... You know, my mom was actually the first call that I made, even though she's just my... Our mom is so prone to stress, but she speaks perfect Mandarin. So she was the first call because I said, we need to call the Chinese government. We need to call everyone we know in China to get on this to try and communicate to North Korea. But, yeah, I mean, our parents don't deal with stress very well.

I mean, part of the biggest stress, you know, some of the biggest stress was just dealing with them. Communicating with them. Yeah, because they would call me a million times a day asking if Laura had called or if I'd heard anything. So, yeah. And what about when you were set to be released, was there, this sounds crazy, but was there any hugs for the guards, these people who you've actually connected with?

Yeah, yes. It's a great question, Oliver. I'm trying to think if there were physical hugs. I think there probably were hugs. There was one time when I actually embraced one of my guards. She was crying for some reason, and I just felt compelled to reach out and hug her. And I knew that I could be taking a big risk, but I did.

And I think that she appreciated that. And that's one of the, I think, one of the moments where, you know, it's one of the moments of sort of breaking down those barriers. But I do remember on the last day when I said goodbye to one of my guards, I gave her my email address. And I said, I know that you are not able to communicate with the outside. world because although they have an intranet in North Korea, the average person can communicate within the country. They're not able to have email access to the outside world. So I said one day when you are able to communicate outside of North Korea, here is my email address. And I hope that you will get in touch with me. And it's so funny because it's a Yahoo address that I don't use anymore,

but I keep it just in case. Wow. It's pretty amazing. It's also just so, again, it's like, to me, it's that thing. It's the powers that be, and you sometimes look at all these people making these big, enormous decisions that are affecting the direct ability to communicate and know each other. It's like that bridge. I always think about how do you meet halfway on that bridge and really try to, try to

understand each other in your cultures and we're so we're so learned by where we come from and what we know and what we're told and when you finally get to real especially woman to woman when you talk about you know she was obviously going through something and you just want to embrace her to let her know at least physically that she's that it's going to be okay that type of humanity is what is what we forget to think about because one man decides that this is how he's going to rule his country, yet we're all dealing with the same emotive challenges. I mean, we all want the same things, you know,

we're irrespective of where we come from or what we espouse politically, right? I mean, our country right now is so divided. The whole world is so divided. It's crazy. But at the end of the day, when you actually, like, interact with people, you're in their physical presence, you're looking them in the eye. like you do start to realize that ultimately we all want the same things.

And we're all driven by the same desire, which is to provide for our families and to protect them. And it's funny. It's true. And you go into, I travel a lot. I do work with the World Food Program. So you go into these different places and you meet these really interesting people who, I mean, there's no, there's no, I don't relate to any part of what their experiences until you go and, to their house, and you start talking to a woman who just had a baby. You start talking to each other in kind of sign language.

For the audience, Kate just grabbed her left breast. About breastfeeding. And like making like men like like, oh, I'm so tired and it hurt, you know. Next thing, you know you're having an absolutely relatable conversation about what it is to feed your babies. Totally. We can all relate to each other in some capacity. You need to do more of that.

It's about making those connections. Like you can't experience that without being there, without meeting with people face-to-face. Not on Facebook, but face-to-face. No, well, we definitely need more face-to-face. I tell my kids, you know, they're 12, 9, and 6. And I'm like, look, when you, my boys, I'm like, when you guys are going to get into girls and stuff,

I said, you're not going to be texting them to go to a movie. I said, I'm going to make sure. sure that you are going to actually stand in front of this person and ask them verbally. Remember when we were kids and like when we, there was a boy or girl that you liked and how like, remember those feelings you got when you were about to call them and, you know, like, those are so vivid for me. And kids don't feel that. No. Well, how about when you actually had to call a landline and the parent would pick up? Exactly. Because, and you had to have such, like, like the guts to actually know that if the parent, it would be like, oh, hey, is Josh there?

Like, who's this? Like, Kate? You know, it's like, it's just a terror. But again, it's like, it's that feeling, you know? And I think that this generation now that's grown up with these devices, they don't, they don't feel anymore because they don't need to. And they're texting or they're meeting people via apps. And it's like, I could talk to you for a million. I mean, what do you, in terms of what you're talking about.

I know, but I really want to do one thing. I just want the reunion. Like that reunion, the plane ride, and it's like you get off the plane and it's like, oh, we're going to talk about when you realize that you were going to go home. Who told you that you were going to go home? Well, so, I mean, it had, you know, it was a long process and I had requested that a number of different people serve as an envoy to come help with our release. But there was one person in particular that I began to realize was the one that the North Koreans needed and wanted. And that

was former president, Bill Clinton. And so I called my sister. And can you imagine making that call? Like, hi, Lisa, do you think Bill Clinton can come to North Korea? It was a, I didn't think that that was going to happen. I didn't think that he would be approved to make that trip. But I did convey that to my sister. And it was like the worst person to have been suggested because Hillary Clinton was our chief diplomat. President Obama had not been in office that long. And Laura worked for a company that Al Gore ran. And so for a myriad of reasons, I thought, please don't ask for Bill Clinton. But he was the only. one who, uh, who could do it. And apparently he agreed to do it without any

hesitation. And, and by the way, secretary Clinton also said, if that's who they need, let's, let's, let's make this happen. Yes. So even though, even though I was apprehensive because I didn't think he would be approved, given also this was a hugely sensitive to time between the two countries, um, he was and he made that trip. And I was informed that an important envoy had just touched down in Pyongyang and that I might get to go home. And this was a huge shock for me. This was just nearly five months into the captivity. And it really was a huge shock. And from that minute on, things actually moved very quickly. We were taken to a hotel. Yuta, my colleague and I were reunited. We were taken to a hotel to meet with him. I mean, I felt like I was having an out-of-body

experience when, you know, I saw President Clinton there at that hotel and really the presence of my country standing before me in the form of the 42nd president. It's too much for Kate. Wow. It's like too early in the morning. Did you fly back with President Clinton? I did. And it was, I mean, they were so amazing.

They were so amazing. Steve Bing donated his, yes. Steve Bing donated. Wasn't it? Steve Bing donated his plane, so it wasn't at a cost to taxpayers. And I was able, Laura was able to call me from the plane. And I remember saying to her, because knowing that she had been, you know, five months in captivity, even though I didn't know about her situation at all, I didn't know where she was staying or anything, but I said, I need to get you like an eyebrow pencil. I'm sending a bag with President Clinton. It's going to have an eyebrow pencil and some

tweezers just because you're probably going to have to there probably will be a lot of cameras how is your hair by the way after the five months it just shows the sisterly the sisterly bond okay I mean the sisterly bond yeah did you get a haircut in five months I mean no I mean um I mean my hair was pretty pretty funky no I mean it was I pulled it back in a ponytail and she was just so pale when she came down I remember right I remember the, you know, I mean, I hadn't really seen the sun. Wow. First meal.

What about first America? Do you remember what you ate? Oh, yeah. I, well, it's funny because all I craved was pizza. But my mom had made me this Chinese soup that I love. I love the soups that she makes, but I really didn't care to have anything, like Asian. So I did have the soup, but it was great. But we had pizza that night, and it was amazing.

I mean, did you just cry all night? We cried for months. I mean, just like, what about the first time you saw each other? Don't you still cry? Don't you still have moments? It's just, it's so surreal. It's surreal. And, you know, Laura and I, we still, we have always our whole life, like, talked multiple

times on the phone. I mean, every morning, she or I will call one another and be like, hey, how you doing? Good. How are you? Good. Yeah, we don't have a good day. Bye. We don't even talk.

It's just like, hey, what's up? I love you. Bye. You know, there's no. Did you come home and just go, okay, because you didn't have kids then? I didn't have kids. Were you like, we're having kids? Well, yeah, they can suit pretty quickly.

If you do the math, our daughter was born, and we pretty much, you know, that night, had her that night. And then my head would just be like, oh, my God, I just want a family. I don't want to. It was a warm shower and then. Oh. Oh, my God. And what was?

Like, just let me shower. We haven't even talked about him. I mean, what about that reunion, you know? Oh, God. You know, I feel very lucky. Ian and I met in college. And we just, you know, we have a very special relationship. My husband would write letters to me.

And like, we had a meeting time established when at 9 a.m. in North Korea and 5 p.m. in Los Angeles, we would both look outside our respective windows and think of one another and he would I mean this guy so so he's my brother-in-law but like there's no one like Laura's husband Ian like he truly with all due respect to the men in this room like is like they they they you could not have created a more incredible human being and he would like sit in the same place when he would write her letters and like take a picture of himself in the same like place with the window and like always set packages I mean it was was the guy just, it's indescribable. It's like he's all love.

Oh, my God. Indescribable what he, what he did. But. So then you just, and so when you can. So when I, so when I, you know, walked down the steps of that plane, it was, you know, it was incredibly emotional and to, you know, to be able to see my husband.

And my sister again was absolutely amazing, but I do think that I was most affected by seeing my mom and my dad and seeing how much they had aged. I saw in my father's eyes a kind of blankness that I had never experienced. And I saw how much my mother had aged from that. And so that really hurt. And to this day, I don't think our dad's health began to deteriorate, I think, from that moment on and has never quite been the same. So I feel a lot of guilt.

I mean, they went nights without sleeping. Oh, really? Like nights and nights. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So that's what really hurt me the most. Because it's not like any other captivity. Like your kid gets locked up, you can still call.

You know, they're under, like when they're in a country where the U.S. has no diplomatic relationship, like you don't know what the fuck. Yeah. Where they are. What's going on, you know. And now that you have kids and, I mean, I think, you know, not, we can understand what that feeling must be like. And I've always said that, you know, when mom before kids,

you see your parents love you so much, you're like, okay, mom, like I get it. I love you too. And I only truly appreciated how much my parents love me when I had my own kids and I felt that love for them. And I'm like, oh, oh, fuck, of course you're like this with me. I mean, I'm 40 years old and you're looking at me like, oh, my God, you're my baby.

And your kids won't appreciate it until they have kids. Exactly. They won't understand why I smother them either. You know, they're like, Jesus, Dad, please, you know, but wait until you have kids. You'll get it. So when the dust settled after all of this, this experience for both of you guys, do you think that it then took your work and put it into, like, were you even more inspired for your work? Or did you feel nervous about reentering? Yeah, I felt more inspired about the work, but I was also nervous about reentering. entering. So I feel that the work is incredibly important. We need to be out there uncovering these stories. You know, there's a humanitarian crisis that's taking place right now in the world. It

needs the world detention. But for me, you know, it took me an entire year to be able to travel outside of the United States, and it was to the mean streets of Toronto. So, you know, I do approach things with a little bit more hesitation. And I've been. in working on stories that have to do a little bit more about the human condition. Actually, I had a web series about rituals that was inspired by the ritual of gratitude that I experienced in North Korea. And it looked at the rituals of other people and what they do to kind of thrive and survive. And then I just completed a project for discovery last year about the science and benefits

of kindness and not just the people on the receiving ends, but the givers of kindness. and the tremendous benefits we experience, including physical and health benefits when we are kind, even leading to longer life. Yeah, so my kid, my middle kid, Bodie, we were in this shoe store, and he has these little tech decks things which are you play.

It's like little mini skateboards, right? And there are these two guys behind the counter, and they were like, oh, my God, man, I remember when we were kids, and we used to do this, and they were borrow that. And they were playing with the tech decks. And they were loving them. And Boddy had three,

his pocket. And we were leaving the store. We walked down and he goes, I want to give them these tech decks. And I said, all right. And we went back in and he gave them each one of these little tech decks. And these guys were over the, I couldn't believe that this little dude was doing this. And we left and Bodie started jumping around and squealing. He was just emanating joy. And I was like, it feels good to give, huh? And he goes, it was like something he had never experienced before because he saw how that made someone else feel. And I said, it's better to give than to get, isn't it? And he goes, yeah. And it was such a moment for me, you know, and sort of correlating that with the sort of science of happiness

and what that can do not only for the receiver, but also for what you are gaining from that, you know. It's amazing. Is that sort of the direction of your work now is just talking about More mindfulness studies and kindness and gratitude. I would like to focus my work a little bit more on the human condition. And who knows, maybe I'll pick up that, start doing that book on rituals and kids. Yeah. I mean, this is, my mom and I are really, I mean, we can talk about this anytime. But, you know, my mom has this foundation called Mind Up.

It's all about social and emotional curriculum for kids. It's about teaching kids at a young age to really understand their brain. brain how it works when they're feeling stress or anger or pressure how did they understand where it's coming from you know they learn about their amygdala and then how to manage it through breath through taking brain breaks through really sort of being able to sort of self-regulate and we have so much so much more to talk about there's so much more yeah and then for you least like what are what I mean we're obviously all over CNN you're it was just very exciting yeah I mean I've been working on the same show this is life on CNN. Our sixth season, it's airing now. We're working on our seventh. And,

you know, it's a documentary series that explores so many different kinds of topics and different American subcultures. And for me, the experience with Laura in North Korea has made me more defiant than ever to want to continue telling stories and making people aware of their fellow humans. Because I've always believed that the more we know about each other, the better we are, the smarter we are and the better we become. And I think we've gotten to a place in our culture right now where we're so polarized, you know, we're so in our bubbles. And we've stopped really hearing each other and understanding each other. And so my hope is that when people watch my shows, they'll develop a better understanding, possibly a more compassionate

sense of how their fellow humans live. So what has been of this season the most challenging, interview you had or moment you had of the series. Oh, my God, Kate. I mean, I could. Because every, every, every show is, is a different kind of experience, right? We did an episode about benzodiazepines. I saw that one. And, you know, these are some of the most widely prescribed drugs on earth, Xanax, Valium,

clonopin, Ativan. And, you know, I came to the realization that so few doctors, really, who are prescribing these meds. Number one, know how to get people off if they start to exhibit signs of withdrawal or know how to help them taper. And to me, it is just, it is absolutely devastating and terrifying that our own doctors are, you know, in some cases, unaware of how to deal with some of the meds that they're prescribing. So I think that's the most infuriated I've been in working on episodes this season. But every episode is its own kind of unique experience. That's so fun. I love it.

I love it. A few more questions. I know Lisa's got to go back. We can talk for, I have so many fucking questions. I want to talk about what it was like writing the book together. If there's ever any tensions or disagreements or, there's so much to talk about.

But I think one thing we ask everybody, actually, is sort of looking at each other. Start with Lisa. Like, you look at Laura. What would you, what would you like to take what would you take from her that you don't have what is something about Laura a quality that you would say ooh I wish I had more of that and then you're next Laura I love how Laura mothers her kid her kids like she's such a present playful mom I mean I I am at my

kids events and I I spend a lot of time with them but she just she just she just plays with them and I just really appreciate and admire how how how what like what an amazing mother she is to her kids thank you um god I I could take so many things from my sister if I could there are so many things um Lisa just we talked about this earlier Kate Lisa just has a natural ability um to connect with people And I feel as though, you know, in my work, I do. But Lisa, it's just effortless. And I'll often call Lisa up and I'll be like, oh, I'm so nervous about, you know, this event I'm doing.

And she's just like, you got this. You got this. I kind of carry a little bit more of a nervous energy about myself. But Lisa is just calm and easy. And I definitely wish. And what about the inverse? What would you take away from her, like a stressor or alleviating? I would take that anxiety that she has because sometimes she gets in her head.

And I just want to, I always, because she calls me about everything, wants to almost like get my approval on things or get my opinion. And I'm like, you just, just be you. Just be you. And you don't have to worry about that. So that's the one thing I always kind of want to convey to her. And for Lisa, I would be. she has a lot going on.

So her mind is always in a million different places. And so I think that, you know, if I could give her that gift of just, you know, kind of focusing on one thing at a time rather than trying to take on. What's your sign? Virgo. You're a Virgo and what's your Sagittarius? A Sagitt. I'm an Arias. September 7th.

So we're fire. Yeah, it's similar because we're fire and you guys are firm. Interesting. Yeah, I can relate to that. I can relate to having a lot on your plate. And it is a nice thing. It feels almost like a, for me at this moment in my life, it would feel like a beautiful gift to be able to only focus on one thing. But then there's the other side, which is I'm choosing to do a lot of things because it's just the way. Yeah. Let's do the speed round real quick. Fun little questions. And then you guys have to promise to come back at a certain point. Okay, you go first, Ollie. One word to describe the other. One word. Compassionate. Sweet.

Okay, so Laura said Lisa's compassionate. Oh, sorry. Okay, got it, got it. This is a tough. Who is more adventurous? Lisa's more adventurous. I don't know about that. No?

I think she's just being nice. Laura, you think Laura thinks you're more adventurous than Lisa? Yeah, yeah, maybe. Okay. Who's funnier? Lisa.

She's not, she's like, yeah, maybe I am funny. Who gets the last word during an argument, if you guys ever argue? Do you fight, by the way? Very rarely. Okay. But I definitely dominate for sure.

You do. I get that last word. Yeah. I think it's just the older sibling dynamic. We got an argument when, I don't know, I was seven years old, and I was supposed to give up sitting in the front seat of the car for the rest of my life. That was like what we lost in the argument. And I still sit in the back seat.

No. That's a good question, by the way. Who gets the front seat? And again, we don't fight a lot, but the last time we did get in a fight like a few months ago, I think you cried. Oh, my God. But it may, I can see, yeah. What would you, what would you fight? What would you possibly fight about?

I don't even remember what it was about, but. Okay, who's, oh, you do, do you? We don't need to talk about it. We don't know. Who gets annoyed more easily? Yeah. We both do. I think we both get, you get more annoyed.

You get more. You know. Who borrows things from the other more? Well, me. Who is better? Who's better at talking their way out of something? I mean... Yeah, I mean...

That's a tough one. That's a tough one. I would have said me until North Korea. I was going to say, like, talk about talking your way out. This is like, oh, this is a question we ask people, but there's... But I'm not sure... Lisa also does not do well in confrontation. Like, you don't do well, whereas I think I do a little bit better.

Yeah. Do you go and do, do you retreat? I will. I will get in fights with people on Twitter. Oh, you will? Yeah, I will. Oh, you're confrontation. Well, yeah.

I mean, I don't do it often because I try really hard to kind of, you know, have conversations. But sometimes if you hit, if you push my buttons, I can get kind of apoplectic. She's like, back off. Who's better, who's better at gift giving? Laura, she's, she's, especially for kids, for sure. I'm like, here's the Amazon certificate. Okay, we always ask, I like to put it a certain way. You do it this time.

Oliver likes to say, who do you like better? I like to say, who did you relate to the best in this interviewing process? But here's the thing. You, look, I have taken hits. Kate has taken hits. We've taken hits. We can take them. This is not a sensitive.

But we need openness and honesty. We aren't professionals at this. Truth for dollars. Seriously, in all sincerity. Truth for dollars. This is not a cop-out. I so appreciate, you know, you as a man speaking about how important being a present father, you know, is. And, Kate, I just love, you know, you are, you know, one of the biggest, like, film stars in the world, but you're, no, but really, but your passion for everything is so infectious and moving.

So I can't, I can't choose. Sounds like me. No, no, it sounds, it sounds, first I thought it was. I thought it was like, look, Ollie, you're so great, but I got to go with Kate. But then I was like, oh, no. But what if Kate wasn't a big star, then? You got to pick one. You got to pick one.

Wait, we each have to pick one. Oh, yeah. What you're saying? Or it's a collective. Who do you think is a better interviewer? Let's do that. Oh, God. No.

You guys are. You do me. We can't, can't. This is going to go on forever because we can't. You guys are going to. That means we had to be one. We just talked. We just spent the whole time talking about building bridges and

a common humanity. So we're not going to be divisive right now. Oh, God. I mean, it makes sense. I know. It makes sense. So you each get a point. Let's just say we love that you two are doing this together and you're phenomenal at it.

You both are so, so good at this. It's been really fun and we're going to take it on the road. We're going on the road. Good. But thank you guys for coming. This was really, really fun. It was too short. You have to promise to come back.

I have to go surf lunch at my kid's school because I'm trying to be a present mother. That's all right. Sibling Revellery is executive produced by Kate Hudson, Oliver Hudson, and Sim Sarno. Supervising producer is Alison Bresnick. Editor is Josh Windish. Music by Mark Hudson, aka Uncle Mark. I'm Jorge Ramos.

I'm Paula Ramos. Together we're launching The Moment, a new podcast about what it means to live through a time as uncertain as this one. We sit down with politicians, artists, and activists to bring you death and analysis from a unique Latino perspective. The Moment is a space for the conversations we've been having us, father and daughter, for years. Listen to The Moment with Jorge Ramos and Paola Ramos on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Introducing IVF Disrupted, the Kind Body Story. A podcast about a company that promised to revolutionize fertility care.

It grew like a tech startup. While Kind Body did help women start families, it also left behind a stream of disillusioned and angry patients. You think you're finally, like, in the right hands. You're just not. Listen to IvyF Disrupted, the Kind Body Story, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The murder of an 18-year-old girl in Graves County, Kentucky, went unsolved for years

until a local housewife, a journalist, and a handful of girls came forward with a story. America, y'all better work the hell up. Bad things happens to good people in small towns. Listen to Graves County. on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And to binge the entire season, ad-free, subscribe to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.