Sibling Revelry with Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson - Lynsey and Lisa Addario

Episode Date: July 22, 2020

Lynsey and Lisa Addario join Kate and Oliver on this week's episode of "Sibling Revelry." Lynsey is an American photojournalist who works with The New York Times, National Geographic, and Time Magazine, and Lisa is a writer and director for film and TV. They talk about growing up with four sisters, the wild pool parties their parents would throw, the family hairdressing business, what happened when Lynsey was kidnapped abroad (twice) and much more.Executive Producers: Kate Hudson, Oliver Hudson, and Sim SarnaProduced by Allison BresnickEditor: Josh WindischMusic by Mark HudsonThis show is brought to you by Cloud10 and powered by Simplecast.This episode is sponsored by Coors Light and Function of Beauty.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. September is a great time to travel, especially because it's my birthday in September, especially internationally. Because in the past, we've stayed in some pretty awesome Airbnbs in Europe. Did we've one in France, we've one in Greece, we've actually won in Italy a couple of years ago. Anyway, it just made our trip feel extra special.

So if you're heading out this month, consider hosting your home on Airbnb with the co-host feature. You can hire someone local to help manage everything. Find a co-host at Airbnb.ca slash host. Do you want to hear the secrets of psychopaths, murderers, sex offenders? In this episode, I offer tips from them. I'm Dr. Leslie, forensic psychologist. This is a podcast where I cut through the noise with real talk.

When you were described to me as a forensic psychologist, I was like snooze. We ended up talking for hours and I was like, this girl is my best friend. Let's talk about safety and strategies to protect yourself and your loved ones. Listen to intentionally disturbing on the IHeart Radio app. Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Pretty Private with Ebeney, the podcast where silence is broken and stories are set free. I'm Ebeney and every Tuesday I'll be sharing all new anonymous stories that would challenge your perceptions and give you new insight on the people around you. Every Tuesday, make sure you listen to Pretty Private from the Black Effect Podcast Network.

Tune in on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever. you listen to your favorite shows. Hi, I'm Kate Hudson. And my name is Oliver Hudson. We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationship. And what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling rivalry. No, no.

Sibling rivalry. Don't do that with your mouth. Sibling, revelry. That's good. So today on the podcast are Lindsay and Lisa Adario. Lindsay is a photojournalist who works for publications like New York Times, National Geographic, and Time Magazine. She's documented things like the life and oppression of women living under the Taliban, the lives of children displaced from the war and serious.

and most recently the pandemic. Her latest book of Photography of Love and War is incredible. And I've actually known Lindsay now for a little bit. We met years ago. And so it was one, it was really nice to catch up. And it was also great to kind of hear from her sister's perspective, just what it feels like to have a sister that is just out. absolutely fearless and does all this incredible work.

And it was interesting to talk to her, not only about, not only about that, but also about her being a mother and what it was like to be a mother having the job that she had, you know, a passion that's going to take you away and put you in harm's way and trying to balance that with being a wife and being a mom. Yeah. And during quarantine, it's interesting. This is the first time that she gets to be at home. with her babies.

And, you know, we talk a lot about a lot about that and how she feels about that as well. I was a really interesting world. A world is quite foreign to so many of us. We don't really understand what that's like, you know. Yeah. To be pulled to that kind of work. And then, of course, her sister is like up in Silver Lake.

Yeah. You know, she's so great. I mean, she's like, you know. We haven't even gotten to her sister yet. Yeah. Her sister. Oh. Right.

With her husband, she's in film and television, you know, so it's like... Yes. I know. I love it. I love it. It's so funny. She's like holed up in Silver Lake for the last 150 years. Yeah.

She's super mellow, super cool, you know, a writer. It's like the antithesis. You know what I mean? It's really an interesting dynamic. And their whole family, four girls, they grew up in the most sort of eccentric home. I don't even want to get into it because it's... It is so good that you don't want to kind of... I don't even want to preface it with like what their family life growing up was like.

No, we won't even talk about it, but I will say this. There's something refreshing about growing up in a home like they did, meaning you can be whatever you want to be. And here are, you can, there are no boundaries, you know, feel what you want and be what you want. It's pretty cool, actually. Well, anyway, without much further ado, a further ado. Yes, here is Lindsay and Lisa Adario. From the Buckingham Palace, enjoy.

Should we hop in? Yeah, let's go. We were just talking about our Lindsay's, you know, was trying to get access to these hospitals in England, and they're just no access. They're just not allowing people in, basically, to photograph. It's crazy. I mean, I thought that I would, like,

come out here and dump my family at my in-laws and go back to London and work. And I applied at like six different hospitals to work in the ER and the ICU's and everything. No way. They're like, no. It's crazy. Like, no one's gotten access.

Yeah, unless you're married to a doctor or you are a doctor. So basically, when I realized I wasn't getting access, I started covering deaths and funerals and burials, like how the ritual of dying has changed because of the pandemic. And it's been amazing, actually. really interesting. Oliver, when I first met Lindsay was years ago, and we, my first question to her just even just like having tea was like, what pulls you into, like, Lindsay has to be at the epicenter

at whatever cost of everything that is happening in the world. And I find that so admirable and brave, but like insane at the same time. like what is it in in you that gets you you have to be that you can't stay away even after being kidnapped you have gone back you get kidnapped again you keep going back you want to be on the front line but like what is it internally that keeps you pulled to these more dangerous type situations i mean look i wish i knew what it was like i wish there was some sort of formula so i can sometimes stop it because it's really annoying for me that i'll be sort of watching something unfold like in Syria or, you know, wherever it is. And I feel my sort of self getting

really tense. And then I feel the sense of dread because I know I'll want to go there. And then I start sort of researching and figuring out can I actually go there and who will send me? I mean, that's the other thing. It's like, you know, I have to, there are very few publications I would actually go into war for because you, you know, for me it's like I've been around long enough to know that when things go wrong, I need to be working for the New York Times or National Geographic or time, like someone who will have my back, you know, who like, if I go missing in Libya, like they will activate an entire team to figure out how to find us and to negotiate our release. So I think, you know, I don't really know what it is, but I just know that the sort of overriding

feeling is that I think it's fundamentally important to cover what's happening in the world and that people need to have a perspective. They need to understand, you know, what's happening simultaneously around the world, sort of the disproportionate fortune that is sort of allotted to different people around the world. And I just think it's important to document history at all times when possible. Well, actually, is it time? Is it the publications who negotiate these releases? Is that how it works? So, no. I mean, I think every circumstance is really different. Like, the first time I was kidnapped was in Iraq, and that was only a day. So that was like, you know, easy peasy. It was just like, we just had a bunch of guns to our heads for the

entire day and basically had to convince these guys to let us go. So the New York Times actually never even got involved for that one. It was basically us negotiating with the insurgents in like a village outside of Fallujah. And that was 2004. But in a case like Libya, there were four of us, for the New York Times on the front line, Gaddafi was still in power. And so the New York Times had four journalists go missing. And so to be honest, like, I don't know exactly what went on because we were all like tied up and beaten up and like in a prison cell. But I think, you know, I do know from the lawyer that there was a lot of high level negotiations. And it was, you know, everyone who could sort of stand up for us and say that they wanted to help did. And I think that really made a huge

difference. And then your sister Lisa's like, that's great. I'm going to be in Silver Lake. Yeah, right. We're watching the whole thing unfold on the television. We see CNN with like Allie we're like, and they show pictures of Lynn's and then Paul pleading for her life and we're watching it all on our TV screen. I mean, not. We're like, you know, I'm like, yeah. Well, we'll get to that. I want to get to that because that's really honestly from it's one thing to hear it from lindsay's perspective but to hear it from like the family's perspective but let's start with just introducing where where you guys are from you know where where did you grow up what was your whole situation mom dad four sisters right yep okay go on lee sisters suburban Connecticut Westport Connecticut home of some a list mostly

D-list movie stars, but there's Paul and Joanne, you know, Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward that our parents did their hair, kids of like, you know, our hairdressers to the stars were our parents, you know, they met in hair dressing school. So we had, you know, we grew up in the suburbs in Connecticut with all of us, you know, with, we had an amazing childhood. But what year, what years was this when you guys were kids? 80? Well, 70s and 80s. 70s and 80s. Yeah. I was born in 73 and Lee was born in 68. And we're on the fourth and Lee is the second. So then we have our oldest was born in 66 and then Les was born in 71. But I'm just trying to get like the hairdresser, like the hairdresser, like the hairdo style. You know what I mean? Like you're like shampoo. It's shampoo time. Like it's like 70s. Yeah, it's a little later.

Later, yeah. Like, the era we grew up in was definitely more 80s. A lot of perms. A lot of perms going on. You know, everyone had a perm, and it was, you know, depending on what you think about perms, you know. Yeah. What was your dad's hair like?

Oh, big. He had a big hair. Started as an afro, you know. He had an afro in the 70s. And then he kind of tamed it and a lot of pot smoking, a lot of, it was, you know, I, like one of my earliest memories was like all the pool parties that the hairdressing community used to have at our house growing up. So it was just like, you know, we were the forward kids like wandering around. But I mean, it was an insane childhood. Like half the men were dressed as women.

It was, you know. They were all in drag. Yeah. It was like the mock wedding. our parents had mock weddings with men in full like wedding gowns and they would stage mock weddings by our pool like once a month we would have a dude in full drag getting married at our pool and we were just like kids running around you know it's like my kind of party yeah you're way ahead of your time way ahead of your time this was just normal life to you though

or right or did you did you understand that it was more progressive and different. It was only different when, like, our weird conservative neighbor up the hill threatened to kill everyone because we were living in sin, you know? And it was, like, every once in a while, one of our friends' parents would, like, screech into the driveway and, like, demand to take their kid back because we were a house of sin. But other than that, it was, you know.

Yeah. Usually, I mean, and poor mothers, because usually, when they pulled up, we were stark naked, rubbing baby oil on our butts and sliding down the side at like 400 miles an hour. Yes. And we would also completely torture the construction crew next door because Lynn, remember when they were renovating the house next door, we would full on just get naked, climb to the top of the slide and be like, woo-hoo to the construction workers next door and then jump off the

top of the slide into the pool. And there were four of us. My God. But this is the 70s and 80s. Like this is, you know, anything, you know, at that time, it was just like there were no rules, you know. There was like, okay, the PTA would have a meeting every so often being like, don't let your kids go to the Adairio house. The Adairio's house.

I love it. That's the house I would want to go to. It sounds like a blast. We had so many, like, kids taken in that would sleep on our couch or in one of our beds. Like, we had so many friends who just would rather have been raised by our mom and would just show up at our doorstep. And we had tons of kids, tons of wayward friends of my parents. Like, our house was the house, you know, that took in anyone. It was, like, the fun house.

Was there any structure? No. Zero. Except for going to our grandparents on Sundays. Like that was very structured. Dinner is a family. We always had dinner as a family no matter what. Yeah.

Oh, that's good. What about schoolwork? Was it like, figure it out. Just do whatever you got to do. Yeah, it was kind of like no one ever helped us with our schoolwork. Neither of our parents went to college. I was the first of four kids to graduate from college. and it was like, yeah, our kids, our parents were like, what, what homework?

I remember so distinctly getting straight A's on a report card and being like, guys, I got straight A's, you want to see my report card? Nothing. I had to tack it up on the fridge and be like, put arrows to it and be like, look, I'm doing well. They didn't give a shit. I mean, they were like, great. I mean, the only thing they ever told us was like, do what you love and you'll be happy and successful. That was it.

that was kind of our motto yeah god that's so great okay so there's four girls who's the oldest Lauren she lives in New Mexico and she is a teacher she was an artist and then she got her degree she has a master's in arts and she teaches media arts at she's a professor at university of Albuquerque and um and she lives in New Mexico with her husband and And then there's me, and I went to college at a small liberal arts school on the East Coast, Connecticut College. And Les never went to college. She's two years younger than me, and she lives here in L.A. And weirdly, or not so weirdly, her husband is my husband's brother.

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah. So we fix that we're the older siblings. Yeah, so two sisters married two brothers. And so we fix them up. Yeah.

It's pretty awesome because we have the same in-laws. And Lynn's is the baby. So you guys are all creatives. How could you not be? I mean, it's impossible to not be creatives coming out of that house. Imagine if one of us were like an accountant. How far apart was everybody, you know, from oldest to youngest, were you guys a pretty solid close group.

We're all like two to three years. Yeah. So you grew up, how close were your parents? Were they, did they have a good relationship? Was it a connected relationship? Yeah. They were best friends. Okay.

Yeah. And business partners. I want you to tell us what happened with the relationship. All right. I mean, according to our dad, he always knew he was gay and was like squaring around with his cousin when he was like 12 or whatever. But, you know, he always knew. But, you know, this is a guy who was raised in the 50s or 40s.

So it was from an Italian-American Catholic family. So there's no way he was coming out anytime soon, you know. And so he and my mom met in beauty school when they were 18 years old. Hello, red flag. No, shit. We're like, mom, didn't, I mean, nothing occurred to you. She's like, he was, she's like, he was. she's like he was so nice he was like so different than any of the other guys you know

because our mom literally dated mobsters like her entire like high school she grew up in new him in Connecticut so she basically I think I think she was engaged to a dude who died in jail and then our dad comes around and he's like opening doors for her and he's really sweet The bar was pretty low. Yeah. Yeah. And she's like, it was just so sensitive, you know. And so they liked each other and they were best friends and they had similar interests.

And, you know, I think they both wanted a family. And it was, I mean, our mom to this day will swear that she didn't know that he was gay. But, you know, I mean, okay, so they were married 17 years. and the way and so basically you know how we grew up and this sort of commune of like hairdressers and like very open household and like everyone was always welcome and then one she describes it as one Sunday

she went to Bloomingdale's and she went to go like she went to go get new curtains or something for the house and she went and asked for the interior decorator and there was Bruce and she and Bruce formed this like very fast friendship and she invited him to go home with her at the end of his shift to redecorate

the house and she was like come to my house and that was it like basically bruce ended up moving in he became part of the family everyone loved him he had grown up in indiana and you can you know imagine what what that was like for bruce who knew he was gay from like the like from when he was a toddler basically and um and so So Bruce really became like best friends with my mother. And it actually, my dad actually found himself being attracted to Bruce. And my, and they ended up basically starting to have an affair in the house like while we were all there. And of course, I was too young.

I was like seven years old. I was very young. And I was eight when he left. So I didn't really understand anything at the time. But I think Lee, you were older and you remember like the whole how it all panned out. But essentially, my dad and Bruce fell in love. And that was when my dad had to make a decision to actually leave. Had your dad had any other affairs or, you know, been with a man prior?

Yeah. He did. He had a few dalliances, as he would say. But he never, like, you know, he was never in love with anyone. It never came to the point where it jeopardized his family. And this was like, you know, they had a very. successful business, our parents. And Bruce was the shop colorist. And our dad was like the star hair dresser. And our mom was, and the three of them worked really well together. And for years.

Oh. But it, you know. We have to back up because my mom taught Bruce how to color hair. How to color hair. So yeah. Oh, oh. Oh, so he became a colorist. Yes. Because this is the thing. our mom said to Bruce, you have an eye for color because he was an interior decorator. So she's like, I think you could be an amazing colorist. So our parents actually paid for Bruce's beauty school to get his license and put him through beauty school. And then he was certified and then he started working at the shop. And it was all very, you know, kind of like he was almost like an uncle to us. He was always around the house.

he was best friends with our mom and it just became too hard for them because they were in love, you know? And your mom knew it? She knew. At first she didn't know. Okay. But then what happened was our dad told our mom

that he was gay and they tried to make it work. Like our dad left for a little while and then we all went to summer camp for two months and they tried to make it work, like to separate, and then it was too hard. And so, like, they went back and forth a couple times, and it was a real struggle where they would try to, like, stay together and just, our mom, here's the crazy thing. Our mom would drive after work on a Saturday night would drive our dad and Bruce to the train station so they could go into the city together for Sunday and Monday, and then pick them up

at the train station and they would all go back to work together on Tuesday. Wow, it's like as, you know, as aggressive as it gets. Right, in the 80s. The challenge with that, I would think, would be like, you can't, if someone wants to be with another gender, if that's their, like, you can't, there's no. Yeah. Well, that's what our mom would always say. Well, at least there was nothing I could have done.

You know what I mean? Like, when it was finally over. Right. Yeah. She could, at least he didn't leave her. for another woman. Right. You know what I mean?

And basically, Bruce is pretty much the closest thing you could get to the female version of our mom. They have the exact same person. They're like super, they're like best friends and they're both totally manic and fun and you know, they're like the fun, crazy people. So, they get along really well. And they're very social and they're the connectors, you know, and so in a way it worked out. I mean, now, this is 30, what, how many years later? It was 1982 when he left, so whatever

that is. So, Lisa, as a film producer, how have you not made this movie? Oh, there you go. Yeah. No, we have a script that we have wrote, you know, 20 years ago and have been rewriting it from different perspectives. And it's, we're actually trying to get made right now. Great time period, too. It really is. Well, you know, a big part of that whole thing and of our dad coming out really was, I mean, this was 1983, 1982. So the thing that also you have to remember was this is when AIDS came out. And so a big part of the lens of this is the whole like, it's kind of like what we're going through now. Except people didn't know how you got it, where it came from. You know, so we would literally be going. two parties at our dad and Bruce's house when we were all little. And we'd be leaving the house and our mom and her best friend Roxanne would be like, don't eat any hamburgers. Don't take

a drink over there. You don't know how you could get it. You know, and it was like we didn't, there was such a sense of like paranoia from AIDS. And it was really crazy. And it infiltrated the, you know, it kind of permeated everything at the time for, for, you know, years. Do you think that your upbringing sort of how it was a bit of a free for all and very progressive and sort of follow your heart mentality? I mean, do you think that that was a cushion you know, for you guys in dealing with a situation like this divorce and with another man and just sort of the, you know. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, because that's, it sounds like a hard situation, but I feel like you guys probably handled it well. I mean, yeah, we talk about that.

Yeah, we talk about that all the time, that it's insane that out of all of us, like, no one became like angry, went off the deep end, became, you know, I mean, we really, you know, we all, and now we're all really close. I mean, we go on vacation together. My mom, dad, Bruce, all the sisters, all the husbands, kids, everyone. And so, but I think it's probably because we were raised in this incredible environment of love and, like, support and being open and non-judgmental and everything. So when I. all of this happened, we had the tools to be like, okay, you know, the important thing is that we can get through this, you know? And, you know, of course, there were times that were not so easy, and there were times where my mom was really angry. And, you know, I have very vivid memories as the youngest sister. You know, I was very close to my mother. And sort of I was the one who was still at home through all this. And I, and I think, you know, but definitely the way we were raised helped us get through this. Mm-hmm. And did you guys four come together?

I mean, when this was happening, was there any camaraderie there? We got thrown down the stairs a few times by Lauren. Oh, we were all, like, our childhood, I mean, you can imagine four girls. It's like, everyone's like, oh, you guys get along so well. Well, it wasn't like that when we were children. Les and Lynn's, the two youngest, used to be like, I hate you. I hope you die, like hurling forks at each other. To me, I didn't see that to her.

No, but we used to like, Linz and Les used to fight, and then me and Les used to gang up on Linz. Oh, my God. We used to lock her out of the bathroom. We made secret languages so that she didn't understand. And then, Lor, the oldest one, used to choke me. I mean, she's 4 foot 11.

I'm 5'7 or 5.8. She literally would, like, hold me up against the dresser, and my feet would be dang. And she would be choking the life out of me and I'd be like, mom, mom, you know, we would all kill each other growing up. And was there discipline there? Meaning like, because Katie and I were, we're actually, we discipline our kids, you know, we're very free. We're very free. But we do like some discipline.

But was it just like, oh, girls, figure your shit out? Well, our parents weren't around when that bad shit was happening. Like, they were at work all the time. All the time. All the time. I mean, the only time I remember getting in trouble was when I tried to make you eat shit, literally. I remember I put, I mean, Lynn's was really small and she had one of those training toilets and I put, I took her shit and I put it in a hot dog bun and I tried to make her eat it. Yeah.

And then she started crying and our mom heard like the commotion and she comes storming. No, Daphne cold, I think. Mom came. She, because she stormed into the bathroom. And that was, like, maybe the one and only time I remember getting in trouble. I feel like every older sibling tries to get the youngest kid to eat shit. Right. And I was, yeah.

Pea or poop. Telling his story. And I'm like, oh, my God, I remember now. I'm, like, remembering Oliver. Like, I remember looking in a toilet and all he'd be like, oh, but it's good. Like, it's good. Remember? Do you remember this Oliver?

Yep. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember. And I would be like, oh. And I, yeah. Downstairs in your house now, but where the bathroom was on, in the living. in a living room area. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I would say the camaraderie really came, like, to answer your question. It was more, like, when our dad came out and left, and that was, you know, it was hard, and our mom definitely struggled and, like, had a nervous breakdown full on. And, you know, and she had to move houses, and it was really hard. And probably for Les and Lins, who were still home at the time, like, in the years following, Like Lauren and I went to call, you know, we left and would come back and like kind of see what was happening. But I definitely think it was harder for the Les and Lins, the younger ones who were actually going through it and seeing it on a daily basis more.

And the camaraderie really happened when we kind of all left the house and then would come home together and all be together at Christmas. And that's when we were all really fully kind of like, I would say, we're there to support each other through it all. Because you know what it's like when people go off to college and you talk like once. What was that like for you in less than when the older girls left? I mean, did you feel? Because your dad, where was your dad at the time? So I really picked up on my mom's anger because I was the youngest and I was really close to my mom. And the other thing is we were raised in this.

incredible, like, you know, we had a six-bedroom house in Westport, Connecticut. They had an incredibly successful business. We had, like, you know, endless supply of, like, junk food, food, friends. Like, it was this incredible scene. And then suddenly it ended. Like, the party was over. Like, you know, and my dad left. My sisters went off to college. I remember there was a time where my dad, when he left, he also went into business with Bruce. He had stayed with my mom for some years to try to make that business work, but it didn't because it was just too stressful. So he and Bruce opened a salon together and basically most of the employees went with my dad and Bruce. And my mom, like, couldn't pay the bills anymore.

And so I spent like half of high school waking up and looking out the window, my bedroom window, to see if the car had been repossessed. Like, yeah, the IRS would like come take the cars in the middle of the night. The electricity would be shut off. like literally we had no money so we went from like a six bedroom to a four bedroom to a two bedroom to a condo yeah and that was all in my high school i mean it was crazy so it was wow was that kind of a dick was that kind of a dick move on your dad's part i mean well look i mean you think about like what he had gone through living like his whole life that was essentially a lie because he was raised by this super hardcore italian catholic mother who would have put him him in a mental hospital had he come out. So I think, sure, at the time it was a dick move, but if you, you know, now as an adult looking back at the decisions he had to make, I mean, you know, he had to do it. And it's like he tried really hard to make it work. And I think it didn't. And so he did what he could, you know, but I think. I'm almost talking about the

business side of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The personal side, I mean, God, you have to do what is in your heart obviously always but from a business standpoint it's like he's just siphoned off in everything that him and your mother built yeah that that's true to a certain extent but there's like you know there are nuances and there there are facts that make it like yeah you know like here's the thing our mom I mean our dad was definitely the star like he was the guy who was cutting hair in the front window, you know, with this, he was like the gillah gorilla. Yeah, he was there. And people came from hours away to have their hair cut by Philip. I think, you know what I mean? This is like he was Warren Beatty. Like I'm like literally like, I just like, no, I'm telling you. I'm

telling you. And he looked like him and he was really good looking and poised and he was an artist. And look, not to say, our mom was incredible. And they were definitely partners. But, But our mom was more like the people person. She worked at the desk. She did do hair color. But she was, when our dad finally left, our mom bought him out of the business. And she, you know what I mean?

And so that really, because of pride and she had every right to have pride because they had spent 17 years building up this business. But, you know, from a financial standpoint, if you're just looking at it, like, what should she have done? You know, she chose to buy out his half of the business. Got it. And that's what really made her broke. Got it.

She could have taken that, you know, not done that. But I see why she did it totally. But from a financial standpoint, that's, that's, you know, realistically what happened and why it didn't work out financially. So moving forward, your dad ends up with, for now, are they still together? Yes. They're married. They've been together for years. And where did they move to? Did they move out of Connecticut? Did they go to New York? They're still all there. Oh my gosh. Wow. Okay. So they're still all in Westport. And now do they spend a lot of time together? Yes. Well, when we're all together, they're always together. Yeah. But when my mom, last year, my mom was diagnosed with breast cancer and Bruce was taking care of my mom. Taking care of her. Yeah, I can't stand that. Yeah.

So, yeah, I mean, it's really sweet. And did your mom ever remarry or no? No. She calls herself the Black Widow. She's like, I'm the Black Widow. Every when I date dies. She literally like, you know, okay, first she dated a guy with an oxygen tank, so that wasn't going very far because she loves the mobsters.

Like, she loves these Italian gangster types. And like, you know. He was fully on with. the pinky ring. Like he was literally a monster. He dated him. He could barely walk. He was walking around with an oxygen tank. And then we're like, Mom, you should really, you know, rethink the Mr. Johnny thing. And so he died, which was normal because he was like in his 90s. But, you know, and then. Louis had cancer. He died. Well, first he cheated on her. Then he died. And then Frank, who was like the love of her life. The two of them.

were like, they had one year of absolute bliss. He was 82. She was 78. Right? Yeah. And one one night he dropped in her arms in bed. No. Oh, my God. Yes. It was the same. He said to her, I love

you. I want to spend the rest of my life with you. I love you so much. You're my soulmate and died. Literally. Oh, no. She has the worst luck with men. And so finally, and then, like, three years later she was set up to go on a date with someone and the week before their date he had a heart attack and died oh my god yeah so she she's like the

black widow yeah this is like so bad it's hilarious i might i might agree with your mom i might have to agree with her yeah what does this mean why was your mother oh god okay and then and and so and then dad and bruce are still together and happy and yeah yeah and now and now and They still work. Well, Lynn, when did you pick up a camera? When did that happen? Oh, I was young, like 12. Actually, my dad gave it to me because a client of his gave him an old Nikon and I was

visiting him right after he left. And I saw it and kind of asked about it and he gave it to me. And that was it. It was like I fell in love with photographing and became obsessed and whatever. But I never wanted to be a photographer because I always thought it was like a flighty profession. You know, I just never really took it seriously. And then it wasn't until after I graduated from University of Wisconsin that I said, actually, all I want to do is photograph. So why don't I just kind of give it a little time? Do you think it was an escape for you at all at 12 years old,

being able to look behind, be behind the camera and sort of look through a different lens, so to speak, or is that my reaching? So, so profound. I mean, you photograph. I know. Very deep. Wow. I think it was definitely a tough time for me because I, like, initially didn't understand why my dad left because I didn't really get it. And then, I mean, I don't know. I also just kind of loved the science of the camera. Like, I kind of always loved science as a kid. And I love the way that you can capture light and the shutter speed, like the balance of the two just created this image. And so, and Lisa photographed a lot. So I think, I don't know if it was escapism, but it definitely. was a hobby that I, like, completely was, like, enveloped in. You know, I just loved it. What was your first camera? Do you remember?

A Nikon FG. When did you get into, like, developing your own pictures and all of that? Yeah. So in high school, a friend of my mom's had a dark room. And so I think I was probably a sophomore in high school. And she took my, I asked her to teach me. And that was like an epiphany. I mean, you know, the first time I remember just like spooling film and watching it come up, come up on the print through the red light.

I mean, there was nothing like it. And so that was it. I spent like so much time when I wasn't like making out with boys. I was like in the dark room. You know. Well, you just make out with boys in the dark room. Yeah, I never did that. I don't think.

Like never made the combination. So, but yeah, that was, that became a. total obsession for me. I switched to digital after September 11th. So I shot film for many years. God, isn't it crazy how, because, you know, I mean, just even just liking and take pictures as a hobby. When you would travel, you'd have just like bags of film everywhere. You'd go, you'd come back. You'd have to like write on your, you know, and it's just such a pain in the ass. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing. It's like, I don't even, I even have like really nice film cameras from like, I don't know, 15 years ago that I still bought, even though I switched to digital.

Well, you've given them to the kids. Like, each of our kids has one of Lindsay's old cameras. And our daughter is going into photojournalism. She's at Emerson and Boston. And she has two of Lindsay's old cameras. And they, like, the teenagers now, for them, a film camera is like shooting, you know, it's super cool. And so she's definitely into shooting only film um you know she shoots mostly film because it's so retro and cool yeah but lisa how do you feel about that i mean i was just gonna ask your daughter going into photojournalism i mean that's does i don't have any worry because she's so different she would never go to the middle east and put herself in danger like sorry like last year i was shooting for nick christoph and

cheryl wuddin's book on on america and i and lee was like will you take lou on assignment with you. And I was like, are you sure you want me to take her on assignment? So I went to Baltimore and arranged a police ride along into like the toughest neighborhoods of Baltimore. And Lou was 17 at the time. And I called Lee and I was like, you know, we might get shot at. Like, are you okay with this? And Lee's like, yeah, she'll be fine. Oh, my God. I mean, I feel like if she's with Linz and she's in a situation that Linz has kind of vetted, like Linz is no dummy and she's been doing it forever. And so I know she's in good hands. What I mean, I'm not worried about that. I just mean like in terms of her being a photojournalist and where

she might end up doing that, I feel like she is definitely, she doesn't have the adrenaline rush that lit that her aunt has put it that way. You know what I mean? That adrenaline rush. Yeah. We are in the Rockies, in the Rockies, we're in the Rockies. So this is going to be your favorite ad, I'm sure, because you've been talking about this for so long. And now we're finally here. Our family's up in Colorado.

We came home for a bit. Finally arrived to the Rockies where, you know, I'm going to be honest. Because I can't say immediately, because I'd unpack and stuff. But the minute that I got settled in, I was finally drinking my Coors light, looking at the mountains, and I was deeply satisfied, deeply, deeply satisfied. You know, this isn't the kind of summer where you took your Coors to, like, a festival or, you know, a big wedding or brunching. This is a very different kind of summer.

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So I thought that was kind of a fun, new little summer twist. Yeah, the cold part is key. An ice cold, coarse light. Even just saying that, right, ice cold cores light, it makes you want to just guzzle one. In fact, I just went on a run and I know I'm supposed to drink water, but as I'm speaking right now, I need a cores light. I'm going to crack an ice cold cores light. That's why course light is one that I choose when I need a moment of chill. So when you want to reset this summer, reach for the beer that's made to chill.

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listeners, an extra special offer. So go to function of beauty.com slash sibling. And when you place an order, you'll get a free treatment, a hair serum, hair mask, or leave in conditioner with any new purchase. It's a $20 value for free. That's function of beauty.com slash sibling to get a free hair serum, hair mask, or leaving conditioner when you place any order. Function of beauty.com slash sibling. Didn't you just go back to Afghanistan? Yeah, I was there. Yeah, how was that?

It was really interesting to go back after. It was the first time I had been there in like three years. So it was crazy. I mean, I've been working there for 20 years. And usually I go every year, but it's been a while. It's really sad. They're like blast walls everywhere, these huge cement walls in front of every house now. No one can basically leave the house.

Because in addition to the sort of terrorist attacks, there's also robberies because people are so desperate and poor. So there are like carjackings now and all these things on top of the terrorism. So it's just a nightmare. I mean, it's like horrible. How do you stay safe? I mean, it's a weird question, but you must do major vetting of, you know, I'm like, how does that happen? How do you stay safe? Yeah.

I mean, look, it's so different now from like when I first started. when I first started, it was basically up to the journalist to sort of like navigate how dangerous things were. But in the last 10 years, journalists have become targets of basically all these organizations and governments because they get away with it with impunity, you know. So we now have security guys, like, who live in the houses in the field or travel with us. And they're not armed. They're like none of us are allowed to carry weapons. But they advise us. like often it's a judgment call thing. You know, so we have a really intensive system of like navigating the risk and figuring out the best route, the best time of day to leave. You never

take the same route to a place as back. You never establish a pattern. You, you know, you never tell anyone where you're going. I mean, there are all these little things that you do and you learn like, you know, how to manage in the field. And so that all is sort of plays into. staying safe. Is that part of the allure? I mean, is that part of the, not at all? No. No, it's annoying, actually, because it's like, it really affects my photos. Like, it affects, you can't stay anywhere longer than, like, 45 minutes because if someone finds out there's an American there, they'll come, they'll send a team to kidnap you. So you have to, like, work really quickly and always be looking over your shoulder. And because I've been kidnapped twice,

I'm so paranoid, you know, all the time. And so it's really, really like, it's annoying, actually, more than anything. What was your first job? With the Buenos Aires Herald, actually, I tried desperately to get a job with them in Argentina because I finally, when I graduated from college, I made a decision, okay, I'm going to just give this photography thing a try. I wanted to learn Spanish, so I moved to Argentina, rented a room from this guy, and suddenly decided I wanted to work for the local English newspaper. And I basically went in there.

The photo department was two like 40-something year old men who just chain smoked cigarettes and never actually took pictures. They just like bought pictures off the AP wire all the time. And I kept going in there and saying like, I want a job. I want a job. Will you give me a job? And they were like, no, you know, learn how to speak Spanish and come back. And they kept sort of saying that to me. And I kept going back. And I was so persistent and so annoying. And finally, they were like, well, look, Madonna is in town, and she's shooting a Vita at the Casa Rosada. And if you can sneak on set and get a picture of Madonna, we'll give you a job. And I was like, okay, I can do it.

This is my big break, you know? And so I went, I had my little Nikon camera with a 50-millimeter lens, millimeter lens, and I was sure that, like, I was going to get the picture, you know? And I went, and there was, of course, like, you know, all the security around the perimeter. or, you know, and I went up and I was like, hey, you know, can I come in? I'm a photographer. And they were like, who do you work with? And I'm like, you know, the Buenos Aires Herald. And they were like, where's your press pass? I was like, I don't have one. They were like, no, you can't come in. And I went into this 10 minute explanation of how if they let me in, I was going to get my first job and I was going to be famous one day. And could they please just let me in? And it was like, okay, you're so pathetic. Like, we're going to let you in. So I got in and I got on the press riser. And of course, Madonna was like a kilometer away. She was like 10 miles away, you know, and I couldn't see anything. And so one of the wire photographers had basically like a Hubble telescope of, you know, of a lens.

And he looked at me as I climbed on the press riser and was like, oh, my God, are you seriously like standing here with this tiny lens? And he said, give me, he goes, hey kid, give me your camera back. And I was like, what does he mean? Like I didn't even know really how to use the camera. and he's like, he just, like, took my camera. He took the lens off for me, and he put my camera back on his giant lens. And Madonna was, like, front and center. And actually, the picture I shot is like an empty balcony.

Like, you don't even see Madonna, but I got a job. Wow. That's a great story. Oh, my God. How long were you there? I was there, like, nine months. Yeah, and then I moved back to New York. How old were you when you were like, I,

want to be in the center of what is happening in the in the world probably 23 24 maybe like I went back to New York after that I worked for three four years at the Associated Press like freelancing and that was like covering mayor Giuliani at city hall and protests and demonstrations like I was basically desperate to learn how to photograph because I never went to school you know I was just kind of like street smart. I never studied photography. So I was learning. I had great mentors. And then I moved overseas again in 2000 when I moved to India. And at that point, I started working in Afghanistan under the Taliban. And it was kind of there that I realized like, wow, the role of a photographer is incredibly important for understanding what a culture is like and for sort of dispelling

misconceptions about a place. And so at that point, I knew I wanted to work more and more overseas, and then September 11th happened, and that was it. Like, I was on the first plane from Mexico City, where I then was living to Pakistan to cover the war. Right away. Right away. Like, I think it took five days to open the airspace. I think on, like, the 15th or 17th of September, I flew to New York, picked up a digital camera, and went to Pakistan. But the cool thing is, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure. Like when you were there in India, you were already, you had already laid the groundwork. Like you were shooting women's stories, women of the Taliban. Women of the Taliban was something that Linz was covering before 9-11. And so that when this happened, she already had laid the groundwork.

She already had an inn there and could go back and knew fixers and knew this landscape that no one else really knew like she did and as a woman you have a different you know you definitely have a leg up and a perspective as a woman photographer capturing that world and you know you had already done that and so that's what i remember right after 9-11 i mean it didn't take long you had like the cover the new york times magazine was like women of the taliban and because you had already done that, you know? Yeah. So like, did you start to immediately go like, okay, this is what this is what I've been

working towards? Yes. Yes. Like, yes. And a heightened sense of danger and all of that. It wasn't the danger that attracted me. What I loved was being in the middle of history and the making. Like, I loved being on the front lines of something as it was evolving and being responsible

for covering that and documenting it. And those pictures would be sent home through the New York Times or whoever I was working with and would inform the public. Like, to me, it was such an incredible honor and, like, an incredible job to be able to be there firsthand witness. And then, like, those images were the ones that, like, policymakers and presidents would see. Did you ever get any pushback from your family ever? Like, what are you doing? We're nervous for you. Are you sure?

No. I mean, when I first started, no one in my family really read the New York Times, luckily, you know, the hairdressers, you know, like we didn't have like the most intellectual upbringing. So, you know, when I first started, I kind of trusted that no one really knew what I was doing. I kind of wasn't giving that much information. Like, I remember the first trip I made to Afghanistan before September 11th, I called Lee to borrow money. So I was like, Lee, I don't have any money in the bank. And I want to go to Afghanistan. I said, well, you lend me $3,000. And she's like, yeah, sure. She wired me the money to go to Afghanistan for my first trip. And I called my mom. And I was like, Mom, I'm going to Afghanistan tomorrow. And she was like, okay, honey, have a good time. Have a good time. She had no idea, like, what Afghanistan was. So it's like, for most of, like, until I think I got kidnapped for the first time, my parents, like, they kind of knew what I was doing, but they basically just lived in denial.

Like, I think they just were like, oh, she'll be fine, you know. Yeah, mom has good practice at living in denial. Yeah, I think it was like hard for the course. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. When were you in Iraq? 2003 and 4.

So I went to Iraq before the war. So we were kind of anticipating the war was about to happen. And so the New York Times magazine sent me with Elizabeth Rubin, who was a right, and I met her. I flew to Iran and Iran was letting journalists basically go through Iran to travel into northern Iraq without visas. So it was like this whole system where all these journalists basically funneled into northern Iraq because Saddam Hussein wasn't giving journalists visas like that easily. So I flew into Iran, drove to the border, flew to the border and then drove into northern Iraq in February of 2003.

and basically waited for Saddam Hussein to fall because there was no way out. We didn't have another visa back to Iran and we didn't have a visa legally down to southern Iraq. So we were just sitting in like Kurdistan in the northern region waiting for Saddam to fall, waiting for the war. You said to me when we were chatting once

that it's so interesting because people never, unless you're there, you don't never really understand how incredible the culture is that there was this great movement of art and yeah i think that's sort of the tragedy of of war journalism is that we don't often show the unbelievable beauty that we witness and also like the hospitality and the culture and like the people are so amazing and so much fun and their sense of humor is like super dark and hilarious and like you're always having fun with like like your fixer. Like literally when Saddam fell, our main concern was that our fixer who we had

worked with for two years, the like I guess you would say a producer. All he wanted to do was lose his virginity because he heard the prostitutes in Baghdad were so hot and so cool that all he can think about was having sex for the first time. And we're like, wait, Saddam has just fallen. Like we have to get to Baghdad. And he's like, oh, I just want to kiss a woman. You know, it's like, So it's like there are these little like side scenes that are hilarious and like the art and the culture and the music. Like we just witness the most incredible things. But when you look at what comes out of a war, it's always like the bombing and the death

and the, you know, sort of the negative thing. So there's there's like a whole parallel universe going on. Yeah. Well, like the underground weddings are amazing. Yeah. Like all that stuff. I mean, there's just like great. music. We stop and we smoke Shisha. We're having these great Middle Eastern meals. Like,

people invite us to their homes. Like, there's so much great stuff that goes on. Now, how old were you when you were kidnapped the first time in Iraq? I was, that was 2004, April of 2004. I was 31. 30. I was 30. And take us through a little bit of how that happened. So I, we were in Baghdad and things were getting sort of worse and worse by the day. But because I had basically been in Iraq for a year, I had lost like all sense of fear. Like I was basically like crazy. You know, I would like, you know, a bomb would go off and I would, me and my driver like Kice would jump in the car and go directly toward like burning flames and black smoke everywhere. And we had to take an armed guard with us at that point.

that that was the requirement. And so like we'd get to the place and I'd jump out of the car to take pictures and would turn around and my armed guard would be like cowering in the car clutching his gun and I'd be on the street. Like I was like crazy at that point. So like we heard that an American helicopter had gone down and with a bunch of Marines. And so we wanted to investigate it to see if it actually happened. Because when you're working in war zones like literally the only way to know is to go there and to check it out. And so we went, we, I was working with a colleague, Jeffrey Gettleman, and we kind of like made a bunch of phone calls to figure out the best route toward where we thought this helicopter went down. And it was right before the

siege of Fallujah. So this was like a really, this was an area that was just full of insurgents. It was like known to be anti-American, anti-like coalition. And so. was a really dangerous area. So we decided to take the smuggler's route because the main road was closed by the Marines. And so we took the road. I was dressed like fully like an Arab. Like I had black, a black headscarf, everything.

And Jeffrey is like, you know, looked, he was like very American looking. And so we drove toward. And basically as we got closer and closer, we realized like our driver's kind of, our driver and translator kind of went silent. and we were like, what's up? And we started seeing, like, men in black with guns. And we knew it was, like, too late. We rounded the corner, and there were, like, 30 men, faces wrapped in Kofheas, rockets

on their backs, Kalashnikov, shooting in the air, shooting the rockets in the air. Like, basically, like, they caught us. And we were all ripped out of the car. First, the men were pulled out of the car. And then I threw my headscarf over Jeffrey's head because I thought, oh, my God, this guy looks so American. I'm going to cover him. And then eventually they came to get him and pulled him out of the car. And at that point, I kind of made a calculation. And I thought, if they take like an American, an American Jew in Fallujah, he'll be dead in like five hours.

So I then decided I was going to say he was my husband. So I jumped out of the car in my full hijab and like ran after him and put my arm through his and said, like, this is my husband. And they were like, oh my God, like, who is this woman? Like, is she Iraqi? Like, is she Ameri? Like, what is she doing, like, jumping out of the car? And I just, like, then we were transferred to another vehicle and basically held for like eight hours, probably total questioned, had guns to our head the whole time. Are you spies? Are you with the coalition? Do you work with the military? Where are you from? And luckily, we had all decided before it happen, that we would say, if anything happened, I was Italian and he was Greek. And so we kind of

stuck to that. And it went on for hours. We were at one point let go, but the guy that we were handed over to decided not to release us and took us back into captivity into someone else's house. At that point, it was just like, it was getting darker. It was pretty terrifying. I mean, every, the thing about being kidnapped is that you don't ever know if you'll live, like every second determines your fate and everything you say can have an effect and everything the way you act has an effect on whether you survive. And so it was just terrifying really until the end. And then finally, luckily, the second like safe house that we were brought to or the second sort of house where we were like held captive, the owner of the house was like,

do you want to meet my wife and kids? Because like that's what women do in that part of the world. And I was like, yeah. So I went inside the house while we were being held captive, had like a cup of tea with his wife and was like, you know, talking to his kids in my ridiculous Arabic. And I guess he kind of like warmed up to us. And so when an insurgent came back and said he wanted to like take us away, he wouldn't let them. And he got in like a big fight with them. And we're watching this through the window. And we're like, we're dead. We're dead. And he basically ordered us to lie like get back in our car and he told me to lie down on the floor of the car and he drove us out of the village and basically saved our lives like that was just super

lucky wow you answered my question because i was thinking i was wondering i was going to ask was there any humanity in all of this did you see humanity behind their eyes and once you got to you know but i guess you did saved saved i mean there's always someone which is really interesting like in Libya, even in like the dark, I mean, Libya was much, much tougher. You know, Libya, we were held captive for a week. It was very violent. It was brutal. I mean, we were tied up, blindfolded, beaten up, threatened with execution almost daily and really did not, like, I really had no idea whether we would make it out until literally we drove into Tunisia. And there was like, there were some really dark moments where like, you know, every time,

basically they transferred us to a new location, we were beaten all over again because we were usually handed over to a new commander and that person wanted to sort of assert his power. And so like, you know, there was one moment where we were kind of thrown into the back of this military tank and we were blindfolded and tied up and we were kind of all just like really terrified. And there was a guy, you know, there was a guy kind of like spooning me, a military guy. and being very sort of aggressively, you know, touching me. And I was crying.

But I wasn't, you know, I was just saying, I was just crying. And I was saying, and we're all in the tank, like side by side, you know. And while I'm being touched, I can hear my male colleagues, Tyler, Anthony, Steve, getting beaten. And we're all kind of like pleading, but no one's yelling because we know that we have to be kind of calm about it. And so I just was like crying and saying, you know, I have a husband. This is haram. You know, this isn't Islamic, you know, don't touch me. Please don't touch me.

You know, and suddenly one of the other soldiers, like, basically bear hugged me and tried to pull me away from the guy who was touching me. And so it became, like, a tug of war. Like, I was basically, there was the guy who wouldn't stop touching me. And then another guy who was just, like, pulling me away from his, like, comrade, basically. Wow. Yeah. Super intense. Yeah.

That's just crazy. time. I mean, at what point, where do you go? I mean, is there another level that the human condition sort of goes to in order for survival? I mean, it's crazy. Yeah, actually. I mean, the human mind is incredible. And I think that's the thing that people underestimate is like the power of the mind. You know, like, I'm very lucky when things happen to me. I don't freak out. I actually go into like a very calm Zen place where I just say like, okay, this is totally out of my control. And it's like, it's funny because in life we're like, you know, Kate, I'm sure you're the same. Lee, I know you're the same. It's like, you know, we're women who take control and we make

all these decisions and we're like doing all these things. But it's like actually, it's the one moment in your life where you can't make any decisions and you just like shut your mouth and you do what you're told and that's it. And it's like, you know, I go to a. very kind of zen place. And I just say, okay, I have to stay alive. Like, I just have to get through this minute and the next minute and the next minute. And if I get punched in the face, you know what, that sucks. But it's not the, it's not like the worst thing that can happen in. And like, of course, the whole time I'm just hoping I don't get raped. And I was really lucky because I didn't. And that was like the big fear that I had. Yeah, because essentially

if that, if that's going to go down, there's nothing you can do about it. I mean, that's just on another level. And Lisa, when this happens, like, where are you at with all this? I mean, we're... Well, I was getting phone calls from the editor at the New York Times. Like, I got called in the middle of the night being like, you're the number that, you know, we've been given. And I just want to be in constant contact with you. And so this happened for, like, the whole week that Linz was gone, we would get, like, daily kind of briefings.

like we don't know their location and then on and then it was like the fourth day maybe they're like we have their location we know they've been moved to a safe house they're here and so but for the longest time they didn't even have any idea where they were you know and so that was just I mean we had no more news than you know the general public had and so that was really you know But what's going through your head, you know? I mean, are you like, she's strong, she's going to survive all this, or are, where is your head? Yeah, I mean, I guess, look, we all know that Lindsay's smart and tough and, and she's doing what she loves. No matter what, she's like, you know, there's like a certain part of that that's just a fact and there's nothing.

And we kind of surrender like there's nothing. Again, like almost Lindsay's mindset when she's kidnapped. that's kind of like what you have to do here you know and it's like there's nothing really that we could have done but we were just kind of keeping on top of things and we our kids were like watching the news with us you know and Paul seeing Paul on CNN like pleading for Linz's life and you know it was really you know it was hard we were all calling each other all the sisters were calling each other like pretty much several times a day kind of like supporting each other getting whatever information we had but until we got word that she was like oh there was nothing

you know it was you know it's crazy it's scary but again you're in you're in a place where nothing you could do really does anything you know you just have to hope and just hope that it works out and that she is released. That's when Lindsay's husband was like, nope, no more. He went on CNN and publicly announced that he was basically going to get me pregnant if I was alive. And all my friends were like, she is going to kick your ass if she's alive. Like, oh my God, I can't believe you just announced you're going to like get her pregnant. Amazing. The first three days we went missing, Gaddafi did not admit to having us. So basically, everyone thought we might have been dead because they didn't say we have them in captivity. And so I remember

on the fourth day, the Libyan military transferred us to Tripoli. And it was this like horrific journey where we were like beaten up and tied to the walls of the plane. It was like really, really rough. And then we got to this kind of like VIP prison. We think it was on a military base, but we don't really know. And they took off our blindfolds and were sitting in this room. And there's a TV in the corner. And so Anthony Shadid, who later died in Syria, sadly, he was smart. He took the remote control while all of the Libyan like men who were kind of telling us that they would no longer hurt us and they were with the government of Libya and were in safe hands and, you know, Anthony went to the corner of the room and changed the channel to CNN and the TV was behind them. And it was our photographs on the TV saying

like the Libyan government cannot ascertain the whereabouts of these journalists, basically saying like they still hadn't admitted to having us and we're sitting with the Libyan government. And so I started crying and saying like, don't you have children? Don't you understand? Just let us call our families. And they were. were like, Madam, stop crying, Madam, Madam, please. Madam, Madam, stop crying. And then it was that night that they woke us up in the middle of the night and said, okay, you each get one phone call. And that was it. That's when we were able to, like, at least tell our families and editors that we were alive. And what was your phone call? So I couldn't remember Paul's phone number.

So I couldn't remember Paul's phone number. I knew that my mother would never find her phone on time. Like, she can never find it, like, ever. And my dad doesn't answer his phone. And so I just, so then basically all of the men I was with either had newborns or were engaged. And so they all were like, we're going to call her girlfriends. And so they were like, you can call the New York Times. And so I had to call the foreign editor of the New York Times. Okay. And so I literally was like, Susan. It was Susan. It was Susan Chira. And I was. And I was like, Susan She was so fabulous. She was like, Lindsay. And literally, I have a guy like breathing on my neck. I'm

blindfolded. And it's literally like a movie. I mean, I'm blindfolding. The guy is holding the receiver to my ear. And I can feel him like breathing on me because he wanted me to know that like everything I said, he was right there. And so she was like, Susan, I'm like, we're being treated great. And we're alive. Can you tell my husband I love him? She was like, yeah. Yeah. And what did what did you eat? What did they feed you? It was so annoying.

The first three days, we were like being shuttled around the front line. So I didn't want to eat anything because I didn't want to have to pee because or go to the bathroom because I was the only woman. And so I was terrified that if I broke away, I would get raped. And so basically I just didn't eat. Like I'd have like a sip of juice or like a sip of water, but very, very little. then they put us in a prison cell the four of us in one cell together and like the mattress it was disgusting and there was like a bottle with the there was one bottle filled like halfway with piss in the corner and so that was our toilet like that's where all the men like Anthony Steve and Tyler were going to the bathroom and that night they brought us like a big plate of rice and I was like no dice like I'm not eating that and then the next day we were transferred to Tripoli and put in that, like, apartment.

And when we got there, those officials, so same officials who were, like, trying to tell us we were in, like, the hands of the Libyan government, they were like, we're going to buy you a few things to have while you're here, like toothbrush, a hairbrush, you know. And then one of the men who spoke English, like, leaned over to me. And he's like, do you need feminine things? And I was like, great, you just, like, beat the shit out of me, groped me, threatened me. of execution for the last day, three days, and now you want to buy me tampons? Like, what are crazy?

You know, and then we were like, no, no, we don't need anything. We just need coffee. You know, we basically all just asked for coffee. They came back with like 35 grocery bags of like everything you can think of. And we were like, we're never leaving Libya, you know, like basically. So they just like stuffed us with food for the next like three, four days. Oh, wow. yeah

wow yeah didn't you guys have a book of Shakespeare's plays there and you started yeah there were three or four Shakespeare books and of course Stephen Farrell

who was like English Irish had read had like memorized all the books and the Americans were like what and so except Anthony who was like a genius but I tried

with all my heart for three straight days to get through like the first sentence and I just couldn't even read i was like all i could do was sleep basically and anthony passed in syria yeah he had an allergy attack in syria being uh he uh was smuggled in in the beginning of the war like a year after libya and on his way out he had an allergic reaction to the horses that were carrying their gear

out of syria no died in the mouth asthma yeah yeah yeah oh my gosh it's it's The irony, isn't, it's so crazy. And he was like the most brilliant writer, you know, he was half American, half Lebanese, like understood the Middle East was the most beautiful writer, such a good guy. One, like, I don't, you know, one a few Pulitzer's was like, he just had a new son. Like, it was the most tragic thing ever. And he's allergic. He was allergic to horses. That was it.

And it was never that bad. You know, allergies change over time. And so you can be allergic, but then one day you go into cardiac or, you know, one day you go into anaphylactic shock. And, yeah, that happened. Jesus. When you found out that you were going to be released, did that happen? Did they tell you? Or did you see?

It was so weird. No. Basically, so we were staying in this, like, in this, like, weird apartment with bars on the windows. and they said, like, if you open the shade, we'll shoot you. And so we just were, like, sit in this apartment day and night and try and entertain ourselves for, like, three days, like, wondering if we were ever going to get released. At one point, we were thrown into the back of a car, like, blindfolded, driven, like, 200 miles an hour, taken our blindfolds off. And our New York Times colleague, David Kirkpatrick, was sitting across from us not kidnapped in, like, a government office in Tripoli. and they were negotiating our release.

He was basically like, oh, so who needs passports? And they were trying to figure out, like, who actually needs passports to get into Tunisia if we were released, right? I actually had a passport in my underwear for eight days with $10,000 that no one ever found. Wow. Yeah. So, but anyway, so then we were brought back to captivity because the State Department wouldn't meet the demands of the Libyan. government. So then the no-fly zone was implemented and we were sure we would never get out because there was no like bargaining chip. And then two days later, they came to get us at like

seven at night and they were like, get all your stuff, blindfolded us again, threw us in the back of a car, drove 200 miles an hour, and like suddenly put us in, like, I is the only woman was always put apart, but putting these like really nice, I think diplomatic residences. and weren't told anything, and just, they just, like, left us there. So we, like, took shower. I, like, I couldn't talk to my colleagues, you know. And the next morning, there was a knock on the door, and they were, like, come down to get dressed.

They gave Steve a new pair of pants because they had ripped his pants. And they said, look nice and get dressed. And they brought us downstairs. And there were, like, 40 TV cameras. And they sat us down. Basically, they were, like, they were putting us, like, in front of the TV. cameras. And right as I was about to sit down, this Turkish diplomat came to me and handed me his cell phone. And I was like, hello. And it was my husband on the other line. And I was like,

what is going on? And Paul said, baby, you're getting released. And I was like, what? And Paul had been the bureau chief for Turkey, for Reuters in Turkey. And so he had really great connections in Turkey. And he's like, you're getting released. Do you have your passport? And I was like, well, it was in my underwear, but I just gave it to the Libyans because I finally got nervous. They would find it. And, you know, he's like, you have a passport. And I was like, they said they're going to give it back. And that was it. And then we sat down. And there were all these TV cameras. And the Libyan government was like, we are releasing these journalists. And we're going to give each one of them $5,000 for their hardship. And they went to give me money. And I was like, oh, no, my money's been in my

underwear. No one stole my money. And Anthony Cheneed looked at me and was like, they stole $40,000 worth of camera gear, beat the shit out of you, groped you, and you're not taking $5,000? I was like, oh, no. And then we got, then, like, you know, then it was the journey of, like, trying to get back out to the border because there was fighting all the way

from Tripoli to the Tunisian border. So we had to then drive through the war to get out. Oh, my gosh. Lindsay. Yeah. This story. Yeah. Then she got pregnant.

Then, like, yeah. Like, yeah, like, you know, Okay, so then what was your first call after Paul? Did you call your family? So, no, so then we crossed into Tunisia, and we were all kind of shell-shocked. I mean, we were all, like, really just like, like, no one really was speaking. Like, we were all kind of like, fuck. We crossed into Tunisia, and there were these security guards the New York Times had sent to meet us to basically, like, give us our passports.

They gave all the men, all the guys, like, a six-month. like a two-month temporary American passport that the state department issues in emergencies, I had my passport and they took us to like a Walmart, like a giant like, you know, and they had money for us and they were like, okay, buy whatever you need. And we were basically like a bunch of kids like in a candy store. We were like, underwear. Like we can get you. Like we were like, oh my God, we can get this and candy. And you know, so we got like all the stuff. And then they took us to a hotel in Jurba, which is near the Tunisian border, but it's like a tourist, like a resort. And it was a Radisson Blue.

So they checked us all into the Radisson Blue. And immediately they had a doctor waiting there to like each one of us had to go get like kind of debriefed. And she was like, you know, basically were you raped? What happened? Do you have any physical scars? Are you having trouble sleeping? How is your mental state?

And they wouldn't let our family. our partners meet us there. They wanted 24 hours with us alone first to make sure we were okay. And then they flew us to Tunez. So that was it. No. And you know the first thing I did?

I can't believe I'm saying this publicly. I got a bikini wax. In Tunis? in Tunis the first thing I did I was like I can't really see my husband

looking like this I look like like a gorilla I got to go right away that's awesome yeah I was it I was like

I love you baby was it incredibly emotional for you with him I mean that must have been a life changing I mean yeah

it was hard I think you know I think he's so like Swedish and English like he's very reserved like I've seen him cry I think once maybe he shed one tear

in that moment like when we first saw each other the only time I've seen him cry was when Lucas graduated from like nursery school he's not he's like I think he felt like he needed to be strong for me

and I was so kind of shell-shocked that like it took a while I think the first time I cried was when I called Lauren, our older sister, and to say I was, like, out. And then when I called you, Lee, like, I think when I called my sisters is when I really lost it and my parents. It's like, but with Paul, I think because he was a journalist and, like, we were in, like, kind of operational mode. You know what I mean? But with family, it's different, you know?

So, yeah. When did you find out that Lindsay was actually alive? Um, I guess it was like that. It's kind of a blur. I think it was like the day after she was released and when you had called lore and, you know. Yeah. Um, it was all like that, that next day after you were released and you could talk to us. Um, and like I said, it was just like we heard her voice and just started crying and we're all. And in the meantime, you just wait. I mean, it's like what you said is there's nothing much you can do. So it's just, I guess you just, I guess you just. wait yeah it was that and we were just getting tons of phone calls like i remember getting phone calls from all of you know our mutual friends who were in la and you know just friends who had seen it on the news and so our phone was ringing like pretty much off the hook being like have you heard anything and you know we were all just kind of like sitting tight and waiting to hear what was going to and lice you had kids at this point right yeah yeah i had how old were the kids

I don't know So it was 2011 So Lou was 11 Yeah So they were 10 and 11 Were they aware of Aunt being I mean

Yeah Yeah fully Yeah They know everything What was their reaction To all of it? They were like You know

They were watching the news With us And it was kind of like A play by play They were with us Through the whole thing Like pretty much We don't really

Keep anything From our kids And we go Because we're always home and we go through everything with them and so they they were old enough to understand what was happening because they were 11 and 10 so it's not like they were toddlers so um you know it was almost like watching a sporting event weirdly you know like we were just like waiting to see what happened who won you know and then it was like cheering and a big celebration and you know yeah we we sort of

jumped into the middle of it. I'm just so curious in Libya how you got captured. Like, how did that happen? You explained Iraq, but, you know, what was that? So Libya, we, I was covering sort of the front line really intensely for about two weeks. And there was really, really heavy fighting nonstop. It was relentless. And so basically what that means for someone who doesn't cover war is that, in Libya, the front line was like one paved road that went from Tripoli all the way to Benghazi, which was in eastern Libya. And Gaddafi's troops were coming from the west and the rebels were going from the east and they would just push back and forth back and forth. And some days Gaddafi's troops would gain ground and some days the rebels would gain ground. And, you know, people would die like every day. There were just like tons of wounded and dead. And so as journalists, we were kind of right up with the rebels and kind of covering the combat from their angle.

And on the day we were kidnapped, it was March 15th, and we knew that the town that we were working in, it was called Adjdabia. We knew that it was going to fall to Qaddafi's forces because the troops were gaining ground quickly. The mortar rounds were like literally zeroing in on our positions. And all of the civilians were fleeing. It was the first time we actually saw. like Libyan civilians leaving the village. And so we knew. But, you know, as journalists, we also want to cover the fighting and cover sort of what's

happening. And so we were in two cars. That's a precaution we take to make sure that if one car breaks down, we have a backup car. And it was me and Tyler Hicks in one car and Anthony and Steve Farrell on another car. And basically, Anthony and Steve's driver's brother was shot at the front line because all of the guys who were driving us and working with us. Of course, they were also part of sort of the rebellion. Like, they wanted journalists to tell their story of the uprising.

So they stayed to work with us. And it was very, very dangerous, of course. And so their driver quit. We all ended up in one car. And basically, we stayed too long at the front line. Like, we should have left before we did. And we stayed covering the fighting too long. By the time we drove east toward,

Benghazi, like, fleeing from Gaddafi's troops, they had flanked the desert. So rather than come from behind us, which we thought we were in front of them, they cut the road, they went all the way around the desert, cut the road, and put a checkpoint in front of us. So we drove right into one of Gaddafi's checkpoints. And it was super violent, like basically the minute we drove up to them, they were screaming and waving their guns at us. And the rebels we were covering started opening fire on the checkpoint, knowing that Gaddafi's troops were there, and we were caught, like, basically in a wall of bullets. And all of the men were pulled out of the car, just like Iraq. Like, they never really know what to do with a woman in that situation. And so I was left in the

car. The car was not armored, so I knew that I had to get out of the car because bullets were everywhere. And so I can see through the window all of my male colleagues, like, struggling, you know, And I finally crawled out the back seat to the right-hand side and was going to make a run for it for this like cement building because basically we just had to get out of the bullets before we can even negotiate like staying alive. And one of Gaddafi's troops like came up to me and started grabbing at my cameras and I like very stupidly but instinctively started pulling back. So I'm like having a fight with this stupid soldier with bullets everywhere. And finally I was like, what am I doing? And I like let go my cameras and made a run for it. and got to that, like, the other side of that cement building.

Right away, we were told to lie face down in the dirt, execution style. They were like, give us your passports. We knew, we understand Joaz's passport in Arabic. So they were like, oh, you understand Arabic, your spies, your spies, like, get down on the ground, face down. They took my shoes off my feet. I was wearing these, like, Nike trainers. And they took off my shoes and took my shoelaces and tied me up. tied my arms behind my back and my ankles together.

And at that moment, we were in a line face down, and they just each put a gun to our forehead and we're about to execute us. And literally, there was a moment where I looked to the right and it was like Anthony, Steve, Tyler, all of us begging, like begging for our lives, like with a gun, like staring down the barrel of a gun. And they, at that point, the commander came over

and said, you can't kill them. They're American. and we have no idea why he said that, but I guess he just decided it would cause too much backlash. And so they didn't kill us, obviously. And instead, they had tied me up. They took us and put us in vehicles on the front line and basically laughed it up, like made us sit there

while, like, bullets and bombs were, like, raining around us and kept us there for hours. And then it just went on from there. Jesus Christ. Yeah. Man. Yeah, it was tough. Where was I in 2011?

You're probably like partying. Yeah. He was like at the sky bar. He was at the sky bar on sunset. We're like writing parental guidance with Billy Crystal and Beth Inler. I was literally doing a sitcom called Rules of Engagement and having my second child. Yeah. I literally every time Lynn comes home for Christmas or for any holiday, it's like she comes

back and we're all having dinner around the table and we're like, we're writing surfs up about surfing penguins, you know? And Liz is like talking about, you know, being in Iraq and women of the Taliban and we're like surfing penguins, you know, it's like, you know, it's crazy. Hey, it's all important. You work with your husband though, right? And you guys have worked together forever. Forever. Yeah, still do. Yeah. We're writing partners, right? writing and directing partners and uh that's all we've ever known talk about you know how's that war zone oh my god like i said everyone is like i would kill my spouse if i had to work with them but we've been doing it since college so it's like we don't know any different so it's not like we had

worked separately and then we're you know thrown together so we kind of figured it out as we went along so it's not it's great but it's you gotta have moments of like babe this scene it fucking doesn't belong in here. You know, like, do we have to take it out? And he's like, no, this is what it needs to be. We don't fight that much, especially now it's kind of like, especially because we have ones that are like our babies that we write and direct ourselves. And then we have ones for studios.

And it's never worth a fight for a studio movie. It's never because there's going to be, you know, a million notes. Yeah. Yeah. And a million notes and a million writers. is there, you know, so it's not worth the fight. Yeah, you can't let your ego get involved in those, in those jobs. But if it's your passion project, that's probably different.

We don't really fight about our passion projects. That's what's so, you know, that's great. Like a perfect team. On the same page for that. That's good. Yeah. What has been, other than, of course, like, you know, your two experiences getting kidnapped, where have you felt the most drawn to as a journalist?

I mean, it's hard to say. I mean, I guess the longest term body of work I've done is on maternal mortality. So women dying in childbirth and like why that's happening and that's a story that I keep going back to. But I, but it's hard to say because honestly, every story I take on, I kind of throw like my heart and soul into it. And I really, really like, I love every story I do because I research, I learn, I meet incredible people. and even people whose lives have been, like, decimated are so unbelievably resilient, and they teach me something. And so I think it's hard to say.

There's not one story, really. I mean, I think I've been really lucky to work on, like, incredible stories. I guess the main theme has been women, you know, the main theme has been, like, women survivors around the world, you know? I think that's, you know, whether they're in America or whether. they're in the Middle East or Africa or wherever. And I think that that's really been kind of the theme of my work. And since you've been after Libya, you did like you had two children.

So I had Lucas. And actually, I worked when I was pregnant with Lucas, I didn't tell anyone I was pregnant because I didn't want to not, I didn't want editors deciding for me, like what I could cover and what I couldn't. So I ended up working not in, in war. situations, like not covering combat, but definitely in war zones, you know, so like Afghanistan, Somalia, you know, I went to like a bunch of different places while pregnant. And then right after I had Lucas, I think I was so terrified by the idea of losing my identity as a photojournalist

that I basically went right back to work three months later and went full on back into not covering, I was covering like Syrian refugees, so in northern Iraq and in, you know, all on the border of like, you know, Turkey, Jordan, northern Iraq, all the neighboring countries. I didn't go right back into war because I was a little, obviously I was worried that I was going to get kidnapped again, but I, but I, I didn't actually stop covering conflict because it was my identity, you know, it was like the only thing I really knew. I think what happened, though, is, you know, some of my editors started making decisions for me, the ones that I didn't want them to make when I was pregnant, but obviously when I became a mother, they stopped sending me to, like, the most dangerous situations. So that was really frustrating. You know, I think, you know, and that's happening now, you know. I mean, there are some editors. I went to Yemen a few years ago. This last year, I was in Syria and, you know, in the jungle and Colombia and all over. But. You know, I'm not like a solely a war photographer.

You know, I cover a lot of different things. And I think the important thing for me is that I have to have some reason for telling that story. Like, I'm not going to go and just cover whatever war is happening between two rebel groups just because. You know, there has to be a draw in for that. Well, it's, it's an interesting question, you know, because where do, and when I say you, I'm saying the collective view, you know, where, do your responsibilities lie when it comes to being a mother and then also sort of honoring your profession and how it makes you feel? You know, where's that line? Where's the balance and what's right and what's wrong? It's an interesting question because are you doing a

disservice to your child by putting yourself in harm's way and potentially leaving him with no mother? Yeah, maybe. Yeah. And I, you know, yeah. I mean, maybe. And that's a constant sort of a negotiation I have in my head always, you know, with every assignment I do. But the fact is, like, the reason why I was so ambivalent about becoming a mother is because I knew that this is not a job for me. Like, this is my life. And, like, if I wasn't, you know, if I suddenly stopped covering the tough stories I cover, I would be miserable. Like, I wouldn't be happy and I wouldn't be a role model for my children. You know, I would not be the woman that I want them to see. So I think, you know, on one sense, I have a responsibility to be myself and to do the stories I believe in. Yes, that means me putting my life at risk. But you know what? Any of us can die at any moment. You know, I mean, I know it's horrible to say, but like, you know, America has more mass shootings than like most of the places I go to. I'm, you know, I think at the end of the day, this is. who I am. And like I, you know, Paul knew that when he married me. I think I obviously try to sort of

weigh every assignment with like, why do I need to tell this story? Like, what can I contribute that like other people aren't bringing to that story? So that's sort of like, you know, I go through a whole process of trying to figure that out. I think what you're saying is, is admirable. And it's everybody's decision has to come, like you said it, you just have to live authentically. no matter what that means. But I like what you said to about being a role model. You know what I mean? That's what I was getting at, which is sort of like, if you can do that,

then that's what your children see. You know, life will present itself however it's supposed to. But if they see you like living authentically, then you're really giving them the best, you know, part of yourself, right? I mean, look, it's hard to say because my kids are too young to really understand. I mean, Lucas is eight now, so he understands a lot more than, like, I want him to understand. But, like, you know, I think Alfie's a year. So obviously that's, you know, he doesn't understand anything.

But I think, you know, with Lucas, it's on one hand, I did something that, you know, probably wasn't the best thing. But I almost kind of, when he was born, you know, when I gave birth to Lucas, I kind of, Paul became the primary kind of caregiver, and I set that up intentionally because maybe somewhere I felt like, well, if something does happen to me, I want him to be as close, if not closer to Paul than he is to me, because I don't want him to be left, you know, without that primary caregiver. And so that, you know, I look at now and like that relationship holds true.

Like he's still much closer to Paul than me. And that's because I was basically gone for the first, like, four or five years of his life, you know? And the irony is, like, with Alfie, that's not the case. Like, also the pandemic has set up the circumstances where, like, we're on top of each other 24 hours a day. But, like, you know, I'm around much more now than I certainly was eight years ago. Mm-hmm. And what's your relationship with death? You know what I mean?

Like, how do you feel about it? I'm not at all scared by it at all. I think it's so, I'm very sort of matter of fact about it. I mean, in one sense, I kind of believe in fate. Like, I just, I, you know, I'm pretty healthy. I work out all the time. I eat pretty healthy, aside from my sugar addiction. But I, but, you know, I think, you know, I do believe that sometimes things are out of our hands.

And like, you know, you see the healthiest people have a heart attack at 40 or get cancer and there's nothing you can do. So, like, for me, I really believe that I should live the life I believe in. And that's the best sort of role model I can be for my kids. Mm-hmm. Does your whole family agree with this? Maybe not. Yeah. I mean, like, does your family, is there, again, is like, I mean, because I know, like, if you were my sister, I'd be like, Lindsay, like me, out of my own fear for you and your kids, I might, I might say, babe, I don't like this anymore.

You know what I mean? Have you ever had any pushback like that from anybody in your family? No. No. No. No, definitely not. It's it's we've all been like this is what she does. This is what we do.

You know, it's all just kind of it's kind of, I guess it goes back to the way we were raised. It's like a respect for doing what you love and giving someone the space to do that and not trying to control anything. you know that's pretty much i feel like it probably comes back to that yeah it feels like it you know i mean if mom is saying i'm going to afghanistan okay honey like have a class you know i think that was ignorance really but yeah she didn't really know where afghanistan was she thought it was like the caribbean or so yeah exactly she probably now as this pandemic is happening and as you're getting sort of rejected from all the places you really want to go into what are you looking forward to when this starts to kind of open up again i want to

go i want to go to the u.s um actually i'm looking forward to like yeah i'm looking forward to going home and just kind of seeing everyone um and then there's a story that i want to shoot there are actually a few stories i want to shoot in the u.s kind of post pandemic um so yeah that and then just seeing like it's really it's really strange because my profession may change like incredibly based on this you know like I think it'll be a long time before publications encourage travel to other countries for work because I think right now you know the security advisors are basically saying work in your immediate surroundings and so that's kind of like a huge deal for someone I see I see I see

like an RV in your future and just the U.S. just literally just traveling around the entire United States in some sort of an RV. I don't know how Paul was going to feel about that. Not sure about that. And then Lisa

for you, I mean, we're all in the same boat here with the movie business and TV business. You're just probably writing so much. We're more in development. I mean, we're probably first and foremost writers. And so our lives have not been affected that much like we were we have three jobs like we've been working

throughout this whole thing and handing in drafts and having zoom meetings you know we've had a few zoom pitches which really suck but other than that you know development is not that different it's the production end of it as you know that's that's been yeah you could probably sell a sell a sell a few things but then actually having realized is can you just give us a little bit um lindsey about your book, your latest book, and how that came about? So in order to talk about the second book, I'll talk about the first book. The first book I wrote in 2015 was, it's what I do. And that was a memoir.

And ironically, I had never done a photo book, even though I've been a photographer for 20 years, but I never really felt like I was ready for a photo book. And so I decided to write a book. book first because so many people kept asking me to write about what it was like to be a woman as a war photographer and kind of navigating life in this man's world. And so I wrote the memoir and then in 2018, I finally published my first book, like a retrospective book of photography. And that is like a coffee table book and it's called Of Love and War. And they were both published by Penguin Press and I had the same editor on both and she was amazing and so yeah an absolutely

beautiful book thank you hold on and Lisa you're just writing a bunch of good shit right I mean you're all you're just writing you're writing you're writing right yeah we're handed in three projects writing stuff for family YA animations yeah all that stuff yeah yeah and scissor happy Scissor Happy's written We're trying to get that made now Although the, you know, the question mark I know production So are you going to direct that?

Are you guys going to do you want to do it? Yeah, I'm actually directing that one Kind of solo but I mean, Joe will be there too I mean, we do everything together But yeah, we both wrote it and I'm directing it So yeah Let's do a speed round Okay, one word to describe the other

No bullshit laughing Who was more wild as a kid? Me Lin's definitely And what got you in trouble the most Eating candy

So you've always had a sugar Tooth Still, still to the stay Yeah We're of the sugar addicts I mean We at how old are you 50 You have a bag of gummy candies

in your desk at all times hold on hold on hold on oh my god wow wait wait and she's like stick thin look at my god oh my god oh my god that's that's real that's that's that's real I actually do that anymore I have like one dessert after dinner like a cookie or an ice cream but like I don't eat candy anymore. Yeah, because we're just, we can't see this, but she just pulled out like six bags of candy. I'm mainline, mainline, but it's gummies. You're a gummy girl. Who is bossier? Me. Yeah, I think Lee. Yeah, I'm bossier. I think Lee. Well, because you run the household. Lee runs the household. So she like, you know, she does everything. So I think you have to be. Yeah. Who's more competitive? Lince.

Me. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Who's the favorite daughter of all the four? Who's like the golden child? I mean, Lauren. Yeah, we always say lore, but mom is always like, I don't have a favorite. Of course, of course.

Well, they don't really, but they do. There's always a favorite child, whether it's, you know. Yeah. Yeah. I think lore probably. I think lore, because she's like the most sensitive and, sweet and kind of like yeah very attentive and a good listener and we're kind of like and we're kind of like doing our you're like yeah laurel take care of it yeah yeah yeah um who's the

one that everyone calls for advice who's the sage yeah yeah yeah depends what kind of advice right yeah yeah yeah okay so like relationship advice i mean we've all been married for so fucking long yeah i mean i mean um i call lee a lot but if it's like a like a personal kind of deep tragedy like something i'll call yeah i'll call lauren but i'll call lee for like professional immediate like yeah practical things practical everyone calls me you know how long do you cook a turkey four they all call me you know um this isn't on the list but but i was just thinking you guys are all married all four yeah correct do you guys look at each other's relationships and sort of think everyone's not you guys are all already nodding yeah you do always always oh my god oh my god

well first of all like lee and i are kind of like yeah yeah Yeah, no, we, we judge each other's relationships a lot. You do. Fully. And we make fun of Laura and Chris because they're so romantic. In love and romantic. And they're always like, oh, sweetie. And if, like, Chris leaves the room for five seconds, Laura's like, oh, baby, where?

And Liz and I are like, are you fucking kidding me? Like, can you imagine if I all of a sudden was, like, to Joe? Oh, baby. My kids would drop dead of a heart attack. they'd be like, wait, are you being affectionate with that? And same thing. Like, Linz and I are very similar and Lauren Luz are more similar in their relationships. That's really funny.

And do you think they look at you guys and are like, I mean, they just don't even love each other? Yeah. Yes. Yes. Totally. I'm sure they're like, oh, my God, they have the worst relationship. Worst relationships. Yeah.

That's so funny. Yeah, I'm sorry And we all think we're And we all think we're the best Of course Yeah, everybody thinks that they do it Of course, that's natural Yeah

Who tells a better joke Lee Lee's got the best sense of humor I mean, I'm dry Yeah, she has the driest Best sense of humor Yeah And who's the most dramatic

Leslie Right? Yeah, probably Les, just in the way she tells stories. No, you're emphatic, but you're not dramatic. Like, Les is more dramatic, I feel like in the way she tells stories. Yeah, probably, yeah. Who's the best cook? Lee, oh, my God.

I used to be a cook for a living. Oh, you did? Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, she cooks, like, it's annoying. She'll just like whip up the most unbelievable meal in like five minutes for 20 people. I mean, it's really annoying. How's your quarantine cooking going?

You guys, I mean. Oh, you should find her on Instagram. She puts recipes every night. Are you serious? Okay, wait. Oh, great. Yes. Baky cakes.

Baky cakes. I have them in my highlights and I say because I get so many texts from people who are like, how did you make that salmon? And so I put it, I have highlights. I mean, it's literally from London, I'm making the recipe she made the night before because it's just easier to, like, not have to think about it. That's awesome. I'm, like, loving cooking right now, so I'm excited.

Yeah. Let's see. Who cries more, who cries the easiest? Me. Well, I'm a crier. Yeah, I think it's a, I think it's PTSD, but I cry a lot. Like, I basically cry all the time. not when I'm like sometimes when I'm working if it's like an emotional but I'm like a hard ass in the field but the minute my guard is down I'm like a whimpering fool yeah I cry all the time I love I love to cry though it feels great oh me too yeah I think it's important to just like a let it go yeah totally who is the most organized Lee I'm I'm pretty organized she's basically

basically like the ideal woman. And who would slam the vacation? I plan. Well, you don't go on vacation. Hang on a minute. You don't leave your house. No,

I'm talking about like our summer trips when we all get together. Like the once, you know, the summer house, things like that. Yeah. Like,

okay, you do. You know. Yeah. I do those. But if we're going to like, we went on a family trip to India with our family and Linz's family.

Like, if it's somewhere exotic, Lynn's will do it, obviously. Yeah, well, because we like fancier. We like, we, we, we, they want to stay like more budget places and me and Paul are slightly snobby. And so we just say, we're going to plan it because we don't want to end up in, like, some three-star hotel. You're like, do you remember what I do for a living?

You're like, I'm on vacation, please. No. Yeah, well, that's the thing. Like, I'm fine to sleep in a tent for like six months out of the year. But when I go on vacation, I want like to be completely pamper. Yes, of course. Something your sister's really bad at. I'm bad at saying no.

Saying no. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. True. I want to please everyone. Yeah. She's bad at saying no. Yeah.

Yeah. And she also bottles her emotions to the point where she just burst into tears when she can't get a good cup of coffee. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Right. That has actually happened. It comes out in really weird ways. Yeah. Yeah.

And me? Lynn, you're about it. Understanding football. Good one. Good one. What do you think your sister would be doing if she wasn't a writer? And what do you think your sister would be doing if she wasn't a journalist? A photojournalist?

A photojournalist. Well, we'd be a co. cook I think yeah I would yeah run a restaurant I'm sure or something yeah yeah um what would you be doing you're literally doing exactly what you're supposed to be doing yeah I can it's so weird I cannot imagine you doing it either that is really rough I would you go miserable if I wasn't leaving the life I'm living you would be what about if you could live anywhere where would you guys want to live i think we'd all want to live closer to each other closer yeah yeah i think maybe i think maybe um i don't know because we grew up there so it's like we just associate that

with like family wherever our family is that's the ideal place to live i think first morning person or night owl morning morning morning morning both mornings morning yeah morning uh first celebrity crush My Eric Estrada. What? Erica Strata. Mine was Johnny from emergency. Wait, what? Johnny from emergency.

There's Johnny and Roy. Johnny and Roy. And Les and I used to watch Emergency, and she was in love with Roy, the blonde kind of balding one, and I was in love with Johnny, the dark-haired one. And we used to fight.

Yeah, and I was in love with Eric Estrada from chips. Oh, yeah. Amazing. Oh, my God. I think I used to kiss the TV when he would show up. Favorite book. Favorite book. A portrait of a lady for me.

Probably a Joan Didian book or a Ray Carver or a sport in a pastime by James Salter is one I always go back to. Yeah. So let's do our last question. All right. You ask you ask today. Okay. So we ask every guest, two questions. What is something that you would like to alleviate from them that you feel would kind of give them some, that would make them feel better or would be beneficial to their life? And then the other part is what quality of theirs is something that you, something you don't have that would be amazing if you could emulate that you sort of respect so much out of the other person.

Okay, I can do that. I can start. I would go, I would alleviate because Lee takes care of everybody, like not only all of her immediate family, not only her husband, who she, like, basically, you know, cooks every meal, makes everything that goes into his mouth, but also, like, make sure he works out and make sure he gets, like, the mental space he needs and make sure that they work and that they work and that they, They clean the house and all this stuff. So I would alleviate and the two kids, the teenagers. So I would alleviate some of the pressure that she puts on herself to like keep the machine of her household running. Because it's just like it's a lot of work. So I feel like I would give her like a two weeks or two months off to just like go.

She hates the beach. So to just go like, I don't know, sit in a cabin somewhere. I don't know. Yeah. wherever she would go. And then the quality that she has is probably generosity and hospitality, like those two, you know, like extraordinary generosity, but also like making a home. Like she's an amazing homemaker.

And I don't say that in like a derogatory sense. I say it in the sense of like, like she invites people in and makes everyone feel welcome. And I think that's an incredible quality. Oh, thanks, Flynn. Yeah, you're welcome. Sometimes I can be sentimental. So I think that the thing I would take that I would alleviate for you is the guilt that you feel on some level for putting your career ahead of your family. Because I think that I know that's something that.

you have and you question and I would remove that for you. If I could just press a button and have it go away, I would, I would do that. That would take me out of therapy for a while. Yeah. And then I wish I had more drive and ambition. Ambition or just like every time Lynn's and Paul come here, they're like, you need to promote yourself more. You need to. You need to. need to be, you know, I just don't have that. I just am happy with what happens and what I am doing in the present instead of like trying to sell myself and promote myself. And, you know, I think it could, I could have a little more of that. So, yeah. Well, it's so good to see your phase. I'm so happy. I know. I know. It's so nice. So nice to meet you. Lisa. It was so great.

You too. Okay. Thank you guys. Thank you guys. Bye. Bye. Bye. Sibling Revellery is executive produced by Kate Hudson, Oliver Hudson, and SimSarna.

Supervising producer is Alison Bresnick. Editor is Josh Windish. Music by Mark Hudson, aka Uncle Martin. Do you want to hear the secrets of psychopaths, murderers, sex offenders? In this episode, I offer tips from them. I'm Dr. Leslie, forensic psychologist. This is a podcast where I cut through the noise with real talk. When you were described to me as a forensic psychologist, I was like snooze.

We ended up talking for hours, and I was like, this girl is my best friend. Let's talk about safety and strategies to protect yourself and your loved ones. Listen to intentionally disturbing on the iHeart radio app. or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Pretty Private with Ebeney, the podcast where silence is broken and stories are set free. I'm Ebeney, and every Tuesday I'll be sharing all new anonymous stories that would challenge your perceptions and give you new insight on the people around you. Every Tuesday, make sure you listen to Pretty Private from the Black Effect Podcast Network.

Tune in on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. Listen to your favorite shows. I'm Bridget Armstrong, host of the new podcast, The Curse of America's Next Top Model. I've been investigating the real story behind that iconic show. I ended up having anorexia issues, bulimia issues, by talking to the models, the producers, and the people who profited from it all. We basically sold our souls, and they got rich. If you were so rooting for her and saw her drowning, what did you help her? Listen to the curse of America's Next Top Model.

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