Sibling Revelry with Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson - Meena Harris

Episode Date: March 3, 2022

We finally have an only child on the show! Kate and Oliver sit down with Meena Harris, author and Founder of Phenomenal Media. She discusses growing up in a family of strong women, the importance of healthy debate, only children stereotypes, and much more.Executive Producers: Kate Hudson and Oliver HudsonProduced by Allison BresnickEdited by Josh WindischMusic by Mark HudsonThis show is powered by Simplecast.This episode is sponsored by:Future (tryfuture.com/sibling)See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. September is a great time to travel, especially because it's my birthday in September, especially internationally. Because in the past, we've stayed in some pretty awesome Airbnbs in Europe. Did we've one in France, we've one in Greece, we've actually won in Italy a couple of years ago. Anyway, it just made our trip feel extra special.

So if you're heading out this month, consider hosting your home on Airbnb with the co-host feature. You can hire someone local to help manage everything. Find a co-host at Airbnb.ca slash host. Hi, I'm Jennifer Lopez, and in the new season of the Overcomfit Podcast, I'm even more honest, more vulnerable, and more real than ever. Am I ready to enter this new part of my life? Like, am I ready to be in a relationship?

Am I ready to have kids and to really just devote myself and my time? Join me for conversations about healing and growth, all from one of my favorite spaces, The Kitchen. Listen to the new season of the Overcomper podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever. where you get your podcast. Hey, it's your favorite jersey girl, Gia Judice. Welcome to Casual Chaos, where I share my story.

This week, I'm sitting down with Vanderpump role star, Sheena Shea. I don't really talk to either of them, if I'm being honest. There will be an occasional text, one way or the other, from me to Ariana, maybe a happy birthday from Ariana to me. I think the last time I talked to Tom, it was like, congrats on America's Got Talent. This is a combo. you don't want to miss.

Listen to Casual Chaos on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Kate Hudson. And my name is Oliver Hudson. We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationship. And would it's like to be siblings? We are a sibling rivalry. No.

no sibling revelry don't do that with your mouth sibling revelry that's good hi all oh hey how's your how's your week been a great week here's the here's the problem i got a new e-bike and i was cruising i was like 800 feet up in the mountains loving my life trying to be then i knew timing to get down to to do some podcast and to be with you the battery died and so now i'm forced to sort of get down at this mountain without my battery i was on sunset cars were honking at me i really was just going down mandeville canyon trying to figure it out i've got alice and our producer who's basically yelling at me like you on the street

yeah i'm confused because i had to go up into the mountains okay i was up in the mountains okay Okay. To get back to where I wanted to go to was more mileage and more uphill. And I said, I can't do it. The bike weighs 50 pounds. It's a battery operated bike. So now I had to come down. Oh, no.

So that's my day. And people were honking at you on sunset? Yeah. I wish I had thought. I was scared for my life. Oh, my God. Sunset, I don't know why. I don't know why people bike on sunset.

Well, why were you, why were you biking on sunset? Because there's a part of Sunset, where there is no sidewalky thing. And it was scary, I shit my pants a little bit. It was really scared. Don't do that again, ever. I know. Anyway.

Well, I'm sorry to hear that. I'm sorry to hear that. God, I love biking, though. It's so fun. It's so liberating. It's just so fun to be up there. I know. It's the best.

So, Ollie, this was our first only child. Which is kind of crazy. It's kind of crazy. The amount of shows that we've done that this is the first. It's interesting. Although her particular story, it's Mina Harris. She is Kamala Harris's niece. And I think a lot of people obviously throughout the campaign for the Biden-Harris campaign got to know the family. A very interesting dynamic because her mother had Mina very young.

And so they were all really raised together. So it was a little different. than like a typical only child scenario. Because her mother had her at what, 17 and then went through like Stanford. Yeah. You know, college education. Grandma was raising. I mean, it's pretty.

You know, while mom was Stanford and becoming just amazing. And just an accomplished woman. A very female household with incredible, strong, highly educated women. I love when she talked about how at the table around the table when they were eating

that they never treated her like a kid. Like they always engaged her even when she was younger in the debate with a real voice. You know? And she talked about how that really informs who she is and what she, you know, became. Yeah, I love that.

I sort of, I mean, we don't do that. We don't do a lot of debating in our family. But I do believe in talking to your, kids like humans and not and not sort of being babyish we should do debates with the kids oh my god like we should have like actual debates yeah we should have family dinner but it has to be around their like subject matter that they care about like the oculus like is it good or is it bad right and one side and one side they can pick it out of the hat and we'll give them like you know like we can do Saturday dinner, right?

We're doing a Sunday night dinner or whatever. I feel like if you gave, that's a really fun idea. It is. Debate night. Debate night. And like there's a couple different things, you know. Like one, like the first Saturday of every month. Right.

And they get dressed up like suits. Like you have suits. And then the family gets to choose who won the debate. Yeah. And then we do a town hall after that. Who's in the town hall? We just get all. We just get all of our friends and like just have a dinner old thing and, you know.

And then they've got to. I love a town hall. And then we're asking them questions. Oh my God. That's so fun. All right. Well, Mina Harris, our episode with Mina Harris has just inspired day night for us. But really, I really, I really loved, I really loved this episode because it also shows, again, another, you know, immigrant, beautiful immigrant story and how that informed not only, you know, her aunt and her mom, but herself.

All right. Please, everybody, enjoy Mina Harris. I'm so excited about this. I'm obsessed with talking about siblings. and being an only child. Well, that is, you know, you're our first only child. Yeah. We've never had an only child. We've never had an only child. I have so many questions about this.

I'm so honored. I'm also, like, nervous. I have to really, you know, smell pressure. But I'm so excited. I'm, like, this is one of my top favorite things to talk about is being an only child, in part because there's so many instances in which my asshole friends are like, you're such an only child.

I'm like, oh, I'm not, and here's why. Why? But why are you so? I have a lot of only child besties. Oh, really? Okay. So then you're, yeah, I'm very well versed. But why do you love talking about it? Like, what does it? Well, okay, I think part of it is a couple things. So one, you know, growing up as an only child is a unique thing, I suppose. I actually, I should look into the like statistics around that. I'm sure there's many more only children now, like, given the economy and other things like that,

then there may have been in the 80s when I was born. But so there's that unique experience on its own. But then I also grew up in a very unique way, in a very unique family, which was I was like a super only child. I had a very young teenage mom. She had me when she was 17. And it was me, my mom, my grandma, and my aunt. That was my tiny little family for my, you know,

all of my most formative years. And I, and my aunt at that time didn't have any children and it didn't for many, many, many years. My grandmother, you know, was, was on her own at that point. So I had, like, not only this super female-centric, like, amazing, you know, lens into, you know, just a woman-run world, like the concept of men being in charge was completely foreign to me until I entered the real world.

Oliver feels the same way. Yeah. Even though he's brothers, he feels the same. You mean because you grew up with all women, too? No. We just, mom and I are just, you know, strong, very strong women. Take up, take them space.

No, but she's not wrong. I mean, when mom was, we were divorced, I mean, I was with you and mom. I mean, I was, it was very female driven household. Yeah. All women. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And so, you know, as you know, apparently, like, that's pretty unique. And then I had just a lot of focus on me because I was the only kid and the only grand kid and the only. And, you know, we have a pretty small, and at that time, you know, especially a very small family. My grandmother, you know, immigrated here and she created her own second family and community. But my core sort of nuclear family was just the three of us. And, you know, all of the attention was on me and, you know, probably both good ways and bad that I've now. I'm in fact, as an adult, one time. How much older is your aunt from your mom?

Okay, so that's, okay, so that's the third part of this, which is on top of all of that, I had this unique insight into their sibling relationship, which was also very unique, right? You have these two girls growing up, and again, very strong, female-driven-led household. They are two and a half years apart, so almost three. They, I think there's actually, who, I think is it,

the Wigiski sisters. There's an article about them. I think, I'm sure you've seen all this because you all keep up with this stuff, but there's a whole other conversation around just like families of super, you know, super successful siblings and somehow like they're all successful. And again, this could be a whole other conversation. But I'm so fascinated by, you know, we're all different. People take different directions. Some families, you know, I think like the Wichiskees, they're super successful sometimes, you know, somebody takes their time or you have a whole concept of the black sheep. Like, there's lots of different ways of the dynamic. I mean, this is your...

Preach into the choir right here. You're hitting on everything we love talking about on the podcast because, you know, family dynamics are... Well, first of all, they inform the rest of your life. And the way you choose to carry whatever your family of origin has sort of built around you is like your foundation. However you carry that becomes everything that, like, catapults you into the world and the positive way. Right. Or does the opposite can be incredibly destructive and right or in between and it's just like confusing and you figure it out. But so I now, so based on that and this is sort of like reset things I thought about. One, I love that there's this parallel between me and my grandmother of like raising our two girls. Nick really wants three kids and first of all, no fucking way. Second of all, like I like having two daughters. It's so fun. And like, you know, the parallels there. But also. And I've actually talked to other new-ish moms that were only children. We're like, it's like a little experiment.

Like I get to like study like how siblings interact and, you know, not to sound also like a tiger mom, but I'm like, how do I make you best friends? Like, how do I, you know? And again, like, we only have, I should stay out of it. And I do that too. I'm like, y'all need to figure it out if you're arguing like, you know, you can go beat each other. Well, they're so close in age too.

So you're going to get a lot of that, you know. Exactly. And they're so different. They're so different in terms of personality. So anyway, it's all to say that like I already have, you know, interesting perspectives and whatever experience is like kind of a super only child, as I've called it. And then I've had, I think, you know, because of that,

an interest in sibling relationships because I never had it. And now that I have my own two kids, I'm even more sort of fascinated by it all because I just, it's so foreign to me. Did you ever want a sibling? I mean, were you ever as a kid? Were you ever like, man, I wish I had someone else? Not really. I mean, now I think about that, like, I, you know, on the one hand, there's like nothing, you know, most, a lot that I would not change, you know, and, but it now seeing my kids together especially, I'm like, oh, that would have been fun. Or, you know, just the idea, we had a feeling of like big family gatherings because my grandmother had such an incredible, vibrant community and second family. But, you know, sometimes I'm like, I'll hear them talking to each other about me. And I'm like,

hey, I can hear you. What do you guys talking about? Like, just be able to, like, talk shit about your parents with your siblings or working through, you know, fun parent dynamics with a friend. What's really interesting, you know, I think, like, when I look at Ryder, my son's 18, his sister's three. Oh, wow, yeah. Your mom was 17. That relationship is almost like a sibling relationship and can be, you know, if not, you know,

It sounds like your mom was incredibly strong and had a large capacity to understand probably how to be a good parent, even though she was so young. Right. Do you have a real mother-daughter relationship, or is there a friendship that has built because of that age? You know, it's interesting. One, like, this would be probably fun to talk about in therapy. I also hope my mom writes a book one day. It would be fun to hear what she would say. So without speaking for her, I would say.

your response about being like a real mother figure and being strict and being clear about boundaries, my interpretation was that that was very much her approach to being a parent. And what I think is super interesting. And, you know, again, like, I mean, we've been all so busy. It would be fun to, like, sit down and talk to my mom about this at some point beyond some of the sort of like, you know, surface level conversations we've had. And I'm sure for her, to your point, like, you know, she was 17. I'm sure there's a lot looking back on that that, that she herself has maybe not even unpacked yet, right? But one of the things that I'm curious about is, like,

was she as a 17-year-old mom like, okay, I need to do this? And I'm curious about you, like, was that your perspective of like, okay, I'm young and I need to be clear that I'm the mom, so there's no confusion in a way that you maybe did it more than like an older mom would do because you were so, you know, worried or whatever or had this sort of idea of how you needed to be. be as a young mom. I'm curious about that. But it's funny because what you said is exactly how I describe her as a mom to me as a young child was she was strict. She was, you know, I definitely had

stricter rules than most of my peers. Um, you know, there's this saying, um, in particular, like in the black community, like, I'm not wanting a little friends. I'm not your buddy. I'm your mother. Right. Like, um, she was clear about that. At the same time, I think what again was interesting, not only for our mother-daughter relationship, but also just in the context of my family and that, you know, sort of unique household I lived in is that I had a front row seat to like every stage of their lives, which is extraordinary to think back on and that I sit with a lot sort of every time I have a big life moment, you know, when I went to law school, I just, it was like just every day my mind was blown, like how in the world did she do this with a four-year-old? You know,

when I had my own kids, again, like figuring out how to do the pancakes and everything else. It's like how in the world did she do all of that? But also just in terms of the sort of inspiration and what I sort of had a front row seat to was, you know, her college graduation, her law school graduation. And same for my aunt, right? And in realizing how special that is that you get to like see your parents' life or your family's stages of life through every critical moment is something that, of course, most people don't get in as very Pretty cool. And how come your mom did she not just not want to have other kids or was she just sort of like, eh, one and done. Thank you. Yeah, you know, okay, I'll let her. I don't want to speak for her.

I'll, I'll say that if I were her and I had a kid at 17 and I did all the shit that she did and put up on. You're like, I'm done. No way. Like, I'm done. I'm done. So, and you know, that's another thing that I'm kind of interested in and talked about, which is that my parents now, in contrast, it's like they're empty nesters and they're kind of, of this, like, young, young-ish. Yeah. Are they still together? No, no. This is my mom remarried.

Okay, yeah. Sorry. And where is your father? I don't know. I don't know. Do you know? We don't know where ours is either. We have so much in common.

Generational thing. Well, no, no. It must be. Cheers. Oh, my God. The lovely aspects of all that. But, yeah, you know, my parents, she married my.

I call her my dad, I called my parents, you know, together my parents. They got married when I was, gosh, 14. I was just about to go to high school. Oh, my God, there's so much fun stuff to think about back of it. Like, I was such an asshole. He's the most amazing person ever. Like, you know, speaking of strong, female, dumb, like, you know, everybody's like, how do you guys deal with that family?

It's like, yeah, takes a special kind of person, you know? Anyway, he's amazing. I was like a little shit for part of that time in part because, like, it was just the two. It was just me and my mom for so long, you know? Anyway, they got married when I was just going into high school. And fast forward, it's just interesting to me where, you know, they've both been lawyers and, you know,

especially when they were like these young, you know, on the 40 under 40 lists and things like that for, you know, especially when we were here in the Bay Area, there were so many young lawyers of color that looked up to them and were like, I want to be you, I want you to mentor me. And I used to, like, joke that the big secret is having a kid when you're 17, part of it, right? Like, obviously, they're both very smart and accomplished and have done extraordinary things. But, you know, on the one hand, I think it was obviously very hard.

And my mom sacrificed a lot. You know, there was a lot that, you know, shouldn't go unnoticed in terms of what she did and the life that she created for us and how challenging that was. At the same time, it like, she did all the work up front in terms of, like, family and kid stuff. so that when she was, like, in her 30s, I was off to college, right? So she and my dad, like, had this amazing kind of, like, like, intense, like, right? Starting in their, like, their careers in their 30s, right?

I'm jealous. That's incredible. I got to wait in another 18 years. Yeah, exactly. Same. I'm like, I'm out of that 18-year plan of, like, moving back to New York. So, Oliver. Yeah.

You know what? I loved about my. my future app experience. We're talking about future right now. We are both investors in this company. We're very connected. Future fitness. We love the team over there.

They're amazing. Here's my favorite thing that they do. I travel a lot. I was just in Miami. I was just in Paris. I feel very lucky to be able to travel and do these things, but it does kind of take you off of your, usually off your routine.

Future fitness, my coach, can actually find out where I'm staying, what kind of facilities I have nearby. They can literally create my workout while I'm traveling. Basically, you go into the future fitness app, you fill out a bunch of stuff, you give information, how you want to work out, what you want to accomplish.

Yeah, your goals. And then they're going to give you an option for trainers. You find the one you like. This trainer will hit you up, FaceTime, email, text, and now you have a trainer in the palm of your hand that is going to hold you accountable. Exactly.

These are also very curated trainers. They are very, very skilled people who have been very vetted. Yeah. And they are, there are no slouches. I mean, all these trainers are. Who's your trainer? Matt. Do you like him?

Yeah, he actually coached in the summer Olympics. He coached a female fencer who made it to the Olympics. Oh, cool. Yeah. So these are trainers who are in D1 program, Division I, sports programs, Olympians. They've trained Olympians. And they are the real deal. And they're there to help you to motivate you to kick your ass, basically, and to get you into shape. So if you're ready to invest in your long-term health and wellness, you can get started with your future coach right

now, 50% off your first three months at tryfuture.com slash sibling. Again, that's tryfuture.com slash sibling. So your mom put herself through Stanford law. Yes. How old was she when she went into Stanford? Let's see. She would have been like 18 or 19. So you were like a year old when she went to college to study.

I was, yes. College, I was a year. She had me her senior like second semester. Gosh, first semester after. So she got pregnant senior year. I was born in October that I think would have been her first semester at college. I'm just going to like assume that your grandma had a huge, huge part of raising you. Absolutely.

Yeah, my grandmother was a second mother to me and a very special, important person. And I actually, there's a lot of interesting stuff just around parenting as well looking. And I wish she were here today for me to, you know, talk about this stuff with her too. But, you know, she was also a pretty young mom. Right. She was in her 20s and she was an immigrant. She was creating a new life for them and a community and, you know, her own family here. And I sometimes joke that like I was her little experiment. Like she like, she did the two, she got, you know, made it through, raised these incredible daughters, you know, under somewhat, you know, challenging circumstances. And then I came along and she's like, oh, now I can like really, you know, again, make all the pancakes and, um, explain for people who don't. know what some of the challenging circumstances were for grandma. Oh, gosh. Well, you know, she came here by herself, which as a 18-year-old student coming from India to get her Ph.D., which obviously, you know, there's privilege there in being able to get

an education and access to that. Went to UC Berkeley. But, you know, she was a little tiny woman of color in a male dominated industry in the sciences. And, you know, I think along with that for anyone in that position comes along lots of different challenges, including sexism and racism and all the, you know, other much more, you know, bigger issues that we were dealing with as a country during the civil rights movement at that time. And she's so extraordinary for so many different reasons, but one in particular related to that period of her life is that, you know, she had a choice. She could have decided to sort of assimilate and not, you know, see herself as an immigrant in that fight. And largely because of the family we come from in India, which very much lived by the same values of equity and justice and, you know, all the things I think are so core to sort of who we are and who I am.

She said, you know, this is my fight too. And, you know, jumped right in. where she met my grandfather, that's very much, obviously, the, you know, community and world in which my mom and aunt were raised, and that informed a lot of, you know, again, my upbringing and values that they brought into our family. But, you know, again, along with that came many challenges of, I mean, depending on how you want to look at it, right? She and my grandfather divorced fairly early in, I guess my mom was like two, I think, and my aunt was a little bit older. But, you know, she was a student and trying to, you know, make a life, you know, modest life for her and her two girls at a really critical moment, you know, in our society. And, you know, again, didn't take the,

on the one hand, just by virtue of that experience, nothing about that was easy. But she also could have probably taken a bit of an easier path and chose not to because, you know, she obviously was so committed to racial equity and, you know, being a part of the civil rights movement. Was this in San Francisco? Berkeley, yeah. She, and I grew up really between Oakland and Berkeley. And, yeah, just to have, you know, that informed so much of, I'm sure, again, I don't know for sure. For sure, you know, you had to ask my mom and aunt, but obviously informed her parenting and decisions as a parent.

And it's just I can make my own guesses, but it's sort of. like fun to think about how she then came into her identity as a grandmother, right? Also a young grandma, like she was in her 40s, right? Yeah. Um, which is wild too because like people have, I'm like, I'm almost 40. Like people have kids in their 40s. Um, and she was a grandma. Uh, and, you know, I think had a whole, you know, um, was able to build on her experience as a mom and think about, you know. Well, it sounds like you have a very unique only child experience because a lot of times, you know, at least, I mean, this is sort of the stereotype that I know from my friends is that their whole life revolved around them.

Yeah. It's all about you. It's all about you. But you had a mom who needed it to be about her at times because she needed to go build her life and her career. And you were with grandma. So you kind of had a, I would say probably a very different type of, you probably didn't feel smothered.

that's right yeah i think it's interesting now look back on how much in terms of my own path how much frankly was sort of like my own pressure on myself rather than right than they're like exactly i think to their credit they were so i mean yes i was i felt so loved and adored and um it wasn't sort of like in a tiger mom way right i mean there were expectations yes of of excellence academic excellence you know, the importance of education was emphasized. You know, we came from, you know, humble beginnings, but education was key. And, you know, having purpose, right?

That was the overarching, you know, message, right? Like, come into the world with purpose and a feeling of responsibility to do good for your community, whatever that looks like. But I was encouraged to, you know, do art camp to, like, never was it, you know, suggested, like, oh, you have to become a lawyer like your mom or not. By the way, my grandmother was a scientist, and there's obviously a lot of...

She was a cancer research researcher, right? Yeah, exactly. And there's a lot of... And I'm interested in this now as well, just, you know, kind of stereotypes around immigrant parents, you know, obviously pressuring their kids because they want them to have a good life. But it's like, you know, what was that in the SNL episode where it's like, you have a choice of becoming a doctor or doctor. There's nothing. There's like no other right option. But to my grandmother's credit, she never pushed that on them, right?

They clearly felt freedom. I think a lot of it was informed by the movement, too, right? Like, they were surrounded by activists and public, you know, leaders and public officials and lawyers. Like, those were the heroes. But anyway, yeah, it's, it was never

to your point, like, my mom was trying to just like make it work. Same for my grandmother. Did you find that you were spending a lot of time alone with yourself? Yes. So I think that one of the characteristics or, you know, that came out of that is that I'm very independent. I, and these are people often talk about that with only, well, I don't know, maybe for only children, the stereotype is like, oh, you're okay being alone or spending time alone or knowing how to like play by yourself. That for sure is me. But there's also an aspect of it that I think contributed to independence. And both like, I enjoy solitude for sure. but also you know you got to figure it out i mean i think that's that was the message not only that my family was living through it was like things are hard you fucking figure it out

right and that was the message to me too how did how did that how did that sort of upbringing manifest in your relationships you know even with your husband um you know how does that work as far as sort of who he and who he knows you to be you know are there things about yourself we're like okay i got to work on this because yes i am i am yes i i i am yes i i I am an only child, and this is the way I know how to do things. But, you know, did that affect me? Yeah. You know, there's an interesting thing, like, going around TikTok and Twitter, which is, like, fierce independence and, like, thinking that you don't need people as a trauma response.

I know there's also a joke that, like, every fucking thing is a trauma response. I think we've all, you know. Every day, yeah, yeah, yeah. But. I learned about fierce independence and therapy. Yeah, right. Like, these are fun therapy conversations. And I, I for sure relate to that.

I think, and so when he asked about my relationship, I, you know, and again, I don't know that these are things that probably unpacked in therapy, fun to talk about here, but I don't know how much of that relates to, like, having a single mom or having an absent dad, right? Which is like, I don't fucking need you. Like, I, you know, my mom did it. You know, we're good. I'm good. I don't need anybody.

Sounds like someone I know. I'm guessing that that's probably. The biggest fights Danny and I ever got into is I was like, he's like, you don't need me. I'm like, I don't. I don't need you. I love you. I choose you, but I don't need you. Right.

He's like, he goes, yeah, you do. No, I mean, I very much identify with that. Do you know the five languages of love, that book? I think I've heard of it, but I don't know the like what the five languages are. It's like touch. It's physical touch. touch, acts of service. Ah, yes, yes.

Acts of service, words of affirmation, gifts, and then one more quality time. And it's really interesting because we all do fall into some sort of a category. You know what I mean? I'm a quality time followed by words of affirmation. I'm physical touch for sure. You can tell me all the great things. I'm like, I don't care. Just like rub my back.

Rub me, touch me, love me physically, you know? It's funny. Nick and I have this like inside joke thing because I again sorry to keep talking about TikTok I'm so annoying but there is like there's some funny thing that's like my love language is physical touch tap my ass right right right right so now we have this thing where I'm like my love language is and so he's like oh got to get your love language in got to get your love like Nick so he's a Capricorn and I very much think that he fits the profile of a capricorn his is acts of service for for um and probably affirmation that's such an annoying love

I'm like I do not want anyone who has that love language oh sorry no but his are that okay his are acts of service to the to the significant other right he wants to do things for you oh he's expression yeah sorry not that he's he likes to do things but is that what you need is that what you like um I you know I like all of it I would say I seriously do think physical touch is one for me um you know it's funny. I think that for him, the return, like he, words of affirmation for sure is one for him. And it's something to this conversation that I think like in our relationship and in my, in my leadership style and work, like I've tried to get better about positive reinforcement and affirmation. And again, this is like me riffing here. I'm not a whatever therapist. But I almost wonder,

with my family, like there was such expressions of constant love of through. physical touch, through language, through access, service, all of it. Like, something you talked about is that your very affectionate family growing up. Yes, very much. Like, you know, you are so loved in every way. But, you know, I feel like maybe because there was just this baseline expectation of, like, excellence, like exceeding excellence, I do wonder if, it's just expected, right? Like, you don't get a cookie for getting an A.

You don't, you don't get, I never had any sort of, you know, you. get money for getting good grades or you get rewarded it's like no that's what's expected and if you don't do that then you know you you whatever you're failing at life yeah right like yeah right like like the opposite with my family my kids I'm like just pass I don't care just get credit and then we'll go out we'll go do something I'm not saying it's healthy like I think it is I think it you know there is a sophistication to that that I really appreciate like and maybe that's because I didn't have that like they cared about our us being our excellence being but they knew who we were right in the world how we were in the world like how hard we worked at so that's how that and just being good

people our work ethic being good people you know and again that of course that was emphasized for me it was more you know again it was just all an expectation you're ethical you're honest you're you work hard and I think this idea of like you know again it's not like we said you know to an extreme I love you. I love you so much. I'm so proud of you. Like my aunt's thing since I was a baby. This is like, I guess, maybe embarrassing to even say it as though. It was like, who's my favorite girl? And again, I was like the only, you know, again, super only child. I was the only possible girl. You're like, well, who else is there? Yeah, yeah. Right. You're like, so it's great. There's nobody else. You're like, obviously me. That's all I ever wanted. All I ever

wanted. But were you, were you rebellious at all? Did you do bad shit? And you know what I mean? Yes. I did. Okay. Good. Good. So you got to have to have that. part of your life. Wait, I have a, hold on, we'll get to that in a second. I want, did you have imaginary friends? No, but my, my youngest daughter, the older one didn't and the younger one did. And I'm so fascinated by it. And I was actually going to ask you something, which is like, I as a parent now in thinking about this from such a different lens in, and some of it's my own creative journey. Some of it, I think is just frankly, like, where we are as a society and asking good, important questions about, like, the evils of capitalism and over, you know,

emphasizing productivity and, you know, that being the basis for our worth, like, all this stuff. And in particular, on the creative piece, I see that my younger daughter is, like, a performer. There's no question in my mind. Like, she, I can give you lots of examples. She is a performer. She loves to make people laugh. She loves to sing and dance. She talks about, like, I'm on stage and you give you a microphone oh my god and i i was like that also however i pursued a very traditional path in part because i think the role models i had were lawyers and so i went to law school and i was committed to you know seeing change in the world and and seeing through my purpose through the law right i now am a thankfully former lawyer and recovering lawyer and i'm i'm

sort of new ish to my creative to you know this new chapter of being a true creative which i think is so I truly am. But I look back and I wonder about like kids that grow up in Hollywood or in families like that or that are just immersed in creativity how that informs a different, you know, different outcomes. And I'm now thinking about that with the younger one, you know, the older one. You know what? You should get a book.

Sir Ken Robinson, he, we, he passed away. He's great, though. He passed away a couple years ago, unfortunately, really, really lovely man. You can watch his TED Talk, too. You should watch. His whole thing is about how the institution, our educational system, has been kind of formed around something that really no longer exists like that, that we should be, we should actually be incorporating more of the creative brain into how. Well, there's no emphasis on it. Right.

There's no structure for this part of our brain. Which is really the way the world is moving and how we can build educational system. more around the creative brain. I want to get into all, like, the incredible things that you're doing, okay? But I have, this question has been on my mind. Where are you with sort of male energy, meaning, like, in your family, you, or when you were a kid, you grew up with all of these beautiful, strong women, okay? Two daughters.

But, you know, where are you at with sort of that male figure in your life growing up? Did you need it? Did you crave it? Did you care about it? Did it affect you in any way? Do you think it's important to have someone like that? that in your life to raise you or to sort of give you that male perspective? Ooh, that is a big question. Let me try to figure out how to answer this. So even though you did

have your dad, your stepdad dad, he was there at 14, but just generally. I guess as a starting point, no, I do not think that there, I do not have a like gendered perspective on raising kids. And I do not think that, you know, you need to like get that from a man that is through a dad figure, right? However, I do think that we still live in a patriarchal society and girls and women have to navigate that and have to deal with sexism and racism and men, sorry, to take this turn, but I mean, this is how I view it. Men, you know, again, there's lots of, I'm going to like what, what I think about this is like problem solving and how to equip, like, what is the purpose of parenting and right?

Like, you just ask, like, do you need it? And I think what girls and women need, and boys, like, what we need is the tools and, you know, the problem solving language, whatever, to navigate a patriarchal society, whatever that means, Right. And you don't need to get that through a parent. I think we need to be doing it in schools. I think we need to be doing it through kids' books, like the ones that I'm writing, you know. But I think it's more about like the structural, you know, systems and, you know, harms that we all have to navigate that are dictated by a, you know, white male dominated world, which is still the world we live in and that we all need the tools to dismiss. that and unpack that and, you know, know how to navigate one or harm by it. How deep misogyny can be at times is so unrecognized still. Yeah. I kind of come from a place because I'm not dissimilar in terms of, like, I grew up with a very

powerful mother who was like, you know, men will let you down, okay? Do what you need to do. Go out in the world. Make your own way. Don't ever rely on a man for money. do it yourself. In my mind, it was like, I am independent. I am fiercely independent.

I can do it myself. I don't need any man. I don't need them. Look, I just wanted to know if dads were important. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. I think it is.

Oh, yeah, keep going. I think the role, the important role is just, to me, honestly, is being a really good parent. Yeah. Right? No, I know. I know, but like that question is always framed in the context of family and romantic, probably cisgender, heterosexual, romantic relationships,

I imagine because that is how, again, we as a society have built power around that, right? Women had to get married and be with men, so that because that men, right? Yeah, like, that was just, but, and so it's interesting, I think I happen to be a cisgender, heterosexual woman, and in that context, you know, there's a whole thing around, like, you know, to your question, like, you know, do I have daddy issue? Like, the whole concept was like, daddy issues or fiercely independent. Like, maybe, I probably, I don't know, like, you know, however you diagnose that. But I now as a parent, think about it in a sense of, you know, if I am to frame it as a romantic thing, like, oh, do you need a good dad to, like, date men?

That's kind of like house is normally, to be in good relationship, this sort of house normally framed, right? Again, it's a very one lens of that. I'm, now I think about it, like, I don't know if my daughters are going to date men, first of all. I don't know if they're going to identify as female when they're, you know, at whatever point in their life. Like, there's just, so to me, I think about it again, more so in the context of society and systems, which are a good dad, maybe that, yes, that's probably helpful or yes, good parent, to your point. Also, some of the most important white men in my life have been bosses, people that I've encountered in the workplace, right? So,

I do look at it more, less about like family and certainly less about like romantic relationships on both ends, right? Again, the framing of like, oh, you know, having a good dad makes you less likely to have bad relationships or whatever. All of that, whether it's in relationships or workplace, it's navigating harmful men. Like that's what it goes back to. How do you navigate it? How do you deal with it? And I think to the point about it being hopefully more hopeful and aspirational, I think it is about just being a good parent and raising good kids. And that's also why, for example, you know, with my, and I'm not like shamelessly plugging my kids' books, but they center female characters. They center, you know, female ambition. But I really, truly strongly believe

it is just as important for my daughters to read those books, to see themselves in those books as it is for 18-year-old writer to know that they exist and to believe in female ambition, right? Like, And there is, as I've become a kids book author and have met lots of different families and gotten so much incredible feedback on my books, there is this thing about, like, if you're a guy like you who grows up in a family full of women, you're like, tend to be like one of the good ones, so to speak, right? Like, and by the way, there's data behind this. Like, you are less likely to grow up and harm women. Like, literally there's a direct connection between boys who are raised as good people and good families and often, you know, around women.

that are less likely to sexually harassed women. Because, oh, like, it's not rocket science, right? It's just about respecting people. And so, anyway, I find all this stuff, obviously, I'm not, like, I'm not an expert. I have a question because it's actually posing, like, this conversation's making me think about debate and how when you grow up with siblings, there's constant debate. Like, you're constantly, you're constantly being told that, like, you're wrong. And you're trying to express why you're, they're wrong, and you have different opinions, different ideas, you look at life differently.

And because you're related and growing up together, you know, you have to figure out that sort of conflict resolution or places where you do agree. And you not having that. Like, where did you, did you ever get any sense of, like, no, Mina's never been wrong. Yeah. Have you, was that, did they want ever go, like, you know what? I grew up with all fucking lawyers. Are you kidding me? Like, it was literally, like, you argue for a living.

Like, you debate for a living. So, you know, the whole joke is, you know, Thanksgiving dinner, how not only about it being so many women, but it's like, my mom was like an ACLU lawyer. My aunt at the time was like, you know, lawyer in San Francisco. Like, my grandmother, very, you know, kind of radical activist, like, wow, I would love to listen that conversation. But also, again, back to parenting, like, because I was an only child, I was, I think this was both a parenting approach as well as, again, people were just trying to make things work and get through the day. I was, I was treated like an adult in the

sense that I was talked to like an adult. It was assumed that I knew what somebody was saying to me, that you need to dumb it down, that you weren't, you know, there was never a kiddie table at those Thanksgiving dinners. You were welcome at the adult table and you were encouraged to engage in conversation, you know, if you didn't have something to say, to listen and learn, and if you did, if you wanted to hop into that debate, that you better have a good argument to me. Or if you don't, better have, you know, thick skin to be willing to be challenged. Now, were those tables very political in nature? Oh, gosh. Yes. 100%. Are there always disagreeable moments or are you pretty much all on the same page?

No way. Oh my God. Like, again, just by nature, like, you know, and this is this is a joke that I have with a lot of my lawyer friends. And if, like, you didn't, if you didn't go to law school, it can be like, yo, like, you're really aggressive. Like, it's not a debate. It's like, no, my whole, everything is a debate. What do you mean? Like, this is just how I communicate.

But it's like, I'll have, you know, guests over. And it's like, everybody's, like, yelling and debating. And I remember one moment where my friends was like, whoa. Oh, it wasn't one of my friends. It was Ella. We were, this was, um, wait, who's Ella? Your daughter. Ella is, uh, Kamala's stepdaughter.

Oh, okay. Um, this one. This was, I can't remember when it was, but we were all, it was like a very passionate, like, excited conversation and we were like debating something and arguing. And I remember her being like, do you realize everyone's yelling? And I was like, girl, you've been here long enough to know how we all communicate. Like somebody's yelling. We're like talking very passionately. But yeah, like that was just, you know, that's a given. And so, yeah, there is, there's lots of passionate, uh, debate and an argument and again it's part of the to me growing up like that was the the vibrancy of it i think you asked the question about like having the focus on me and on the one hand sure i did like in this little tiny family of me my mom my aunt but we had such a big vibrant community and again in terms of the movement and what my grandma was in the the world that my grandmother was in the new community and third second family she was creating it was you know so many again

extraordinary, brilliant, change-making, you know, courageous folks that were just doing the work. And that was what I was surrounded by at, you know, over the holidays. It, at, you know, during weekend family gatherings, it was all about that community. And so it's funny you mentioned that about being kind of quiet, which is, reminds me of a conversation I had with a parent-friend, they have three girls. And he was just telling me yesterday that the youngest one, they literally call her baby is her nickname. He said that she's the loudest of all of them. And his theory is like she's trying to be heard because everybody else is so loud. And she needs to be like, hey, I'm here, right? And I wonder if likewise again, I mean, there's so many different.

What I was going to say back on the like dad question is that there's so many influences on the one hand, there's so much that we can try to do as parents and equip our kids with whatever, you know, as you said, tools to be strong and tough, whatever that means, you know, to teach them about curiosity and being kind, all those things that we are just trying to do to raise good people. You can't, there's so much you can't control. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And whether it's cool or... Well, it's also like... That's the beauty of these little beings. Yeah. Of just biology, you know, you know, I mean... Yeah. The big secret are not big secret, but a lot of people don't know this.

My mom, my aunt, and my grandmother are all actually very creative and artistically talented. My grandmother was like a prodigy child singer won like a president's medal and then became a scientist because that's what you do. But you dance and sing too, right? Yeah, in part because my grandmother really encouraged me and it's because of her that I danced my whole life. They put me in art camp every summer because that's what I wanted to do.

Most kids went for like either the morning or the afternoon and only like two weeks session for the whole summer. I went morning and afternoon for every session of the entire summer of our camp. Looking back, frankly, I should have been in theater. My secret dream was to be on Broadway, but I had fucking stage fright. And so I always backed out of doing like stage stuff. But, you know, that point about like, and I have other women in particular. My great-great-grandmother was a classical dancer.

I have aunts and uncles that were full-time musicians. That's clearly in our family. Right? And it's clearly in me, I see it. My older daughter, I've been talking about my younger one being sort of this performer and not being clear. The older one is incredibly artistically talented. But it's just fun to kind of see how that stuff comes out even if like you would not expect that because everybody's like a serious lawyer. Right. Like they didn't get that. So we're going to have to wrap up here soon, but I want to get through a couple questions. One, does your husband have siblings? He does. He is the middle of three. So I'm also. obsessed with all, I'm just generally obsessed with sibling dynamics. Right, right. If you do like three more hour conversations. I know, I feel like that would happen.

If you're an only child, you would be like, this is, and you get to, like you said, watch it in your own kids, which must be really, really fun for you. I want to talk about your founding phenomenal woman and then your children's books. You did Kamala and Maya's Big Idea, which we talked about, and then ambitious girl. And just kind of explain where this came from

and then why you're no longer, you know, doing law and practicing law and what this new creative venture is. And are you going to start auditioning for acting gigs? Oh. I feel like that's coming. I have been trying to get out of and back away from being a lawyer

while I was applying to law school, basically. And fun fact, my biggest, like, role model in life is a Hollywood person. She's, her name is Christy Hauber. She's like an auntie to me. She was lost of classes with my mother at Stanford. And she famously never took the bar exam and became this, you know, in my child's eye,

like just incredible, you know, agent. And there was a time where I was like, ooh, maybe I want to be an entertainment lawyer. It's like, no, girl, you shouldn't even go to law school. I figured it out ultimately. But Christy, I wanted to be. Christy. I wanted to figure out, like, how do I do what she's doing? But my, the tool that I knew and that I was exposed to was the law, right? And so I went to law school. And I mentioned Christy

because I went in being like, I'm not going to even take the bar. Like, I'm not trying to do that. By the way, kids, like, if you go to law school and you pay all that money, like, just take the fucking bar. Just in case. Yeah, especially the California bar back then. It was three days long. that could be a whole other car. Like, it just, just torture. Anyway, so I, but I also always had sort of creative stuff that I was doing on the side. I always have like seven jobs. I was like making and selling earrings throughout college. I was, it was very clear that I was, for sure, entrepreneurial. And I mentioned, you know, spending all my summers in art camp. I was always artistic. I took art classes at Stanford, you know, when I could. Anyway, I think the thing that's

fascinating for me is I wouldn't have changed anything about it. A lot of, what I learned in law school, my post-law school career, I think, created a foundation both in knowledge and skill and all the things that come along with those experiences that really set me up for success to do what I'm doing today. So on the one hand, I do think about like, damn it, this is clearly my space, like what if I had figured this out 10 or 15 years earlier? And on the one hand, it's kind of interesting to think about. On the other, I think that I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing at that the exact, you know, time that I'm supposed to be doing it. So all to say, you know, I took probably too long to back away from the legal field.

I worked at it. I was like corporate lawyer for many years, cybersecurity, data privacy lawyer, went back to the tech industry. I was in tech after college and then went back. And then like slow, I was doing policy work. So like not quite legal. I was in a GC's office, but it was kind of legal-ish. And then finally made a pivot to.

doing brand work when I was at Uber. And that was both somewhat unexpected. I was already doing phenomenal at that point. And I had sworn that I would like never go back to tech. I got recruited based on our work with them through phenomenal and really thought about, all right, this can be, you know, not again to sound sort of overly academic or trying to, you know, like rack up accolades. I was like, let me go to a really, you know, respected place where I can get, you know, some credentials and experience, right? And I had an incredible boss who recruited me that I wanted to work for, blah, blah. But that was really what started to set me up for, you know, building a brand and starting to see through that vision. Even still, it was somewhat unexpected.

It was, it started off as a very small idea coming out of the 2016 election. You know, this one t-shirt that we were using to raise money for women's organizations at a time when, you know, a lot of people, I think, were really just jolted into action. And, you know, if I'm being honest, I had somebody who was very political and was on the Obama campaign and had been involved in politics my whole life, you know, some feelings of regret and wondering if I could have done a little more. I think, you know, so I think that though the overarching point, like in terms of law school to now is I was still finding ways to keep up the creative stuff in many different forms. And what, what, what, what, what's your hope for a phenomenal? Like, what's, you know,

what's your focus? Yeah. Well, we are building a media company. Many people have come to know us and some people still, you know, think of us as an apparel brand. But really, we are a values driven 360 media company that centers women, in particular women of color and undrepresented communities more broadly. And, you know, I very much think about how I was raised, my, you know, experience with political organizing, which I often sort of analogize to brand building, if you think about it being about community, right? And in terms of this idea of being values driven and purpose driven, it's about putting equity front and center and bringing an equity lens to everything that we do, bringing a diversity and inclusion lens to every single

thing that we do. And I'm just so proud to say that I think, you know, unfortunately, that's still rare where, you know, you're literally putting that front and center and it's baked into the, you know, the DNA of every single thing that we do in the way that we view the world. But that's what it is, right? And we're building a media company with lots of different, you know, community pillars and content pillars around that, that mission and that commitment. Scripted and unscripted, both? Both, yeah. We have a couple of scripted and unscripted projects right now in development, you know, thinking about we just launched a book club and are working with incredible authors.

both to draw attention to, you know, their voices and works, also, you know, doing production and adaptation. And really, I think overall, the point is that, you know, we built this really incredible consumer-facing brand and people know what we stand for, right? They know that we bring that equity lens and that mission and commitment to everything that we do. And we're now applying it, right, to building a true 360 media company. It sounds like you finally found what you're passionate about. You know what I mean? I sound so great.

The point is like I think it out over time. I mean, I think it's a perfect point, right? Like you're always in the right place as a man as a human being. You're always in the right place. Yeah, you can look back and say, oh, what if? But you were led to this and now you're in the pocket and now you're in your sweet spot. And you wouldn't be here unless you went through all that, all the other stuff. You know what I mean?

Absolutely. Okay. One word to describe yourself at 10. At 10? Oh, precocious. And now? Prococious. Prococious and like funny.

I like to think that I'm funny. What was the most rebellious thing you did as a kid? Oh, you know, I don't think I can share that on this podcast. I like that answer. You already asked me if I did. Rebellies. I told you I did. Well, you noticed that I did not elaborate because I knew that you would not, you know.

Favorite book as a kid. Yeah, you know, that's always a hard one. I mean, I loved, in part, I talk about this in the context of my books. Like, you know, we read so many of the classics, like The Night Moon. I would probably say, Where the Wild Things are really sticks out. You know, again, just imagination, creativity and sort of, you know, I guess in some ways, independence. Nike just did a shoe. They just released a Jordan 4 called Where the Wild Things.

I'm a big sneaker guy. And, yeah, I got it for my son. They're really, really cool. So it's a Jordan 4 And the theme is where the wild things are Just going to goat Go on to Goathe or stock X That was writer's favorite

Nick almost certainly knows about Nick is like a crazy sneakerhead Jordan fanatics I'm sure he knows about that But I'm gonna still tell him That I just found out First concert Oh my God

I'm so proud of this It's the best answer in my opinion My first concert was crap It was either Chris Cross And my aunt took me to that. I had to go back and look at the dates.

I'm pretty sure that was the first one. And then my second one that's also great was Paula Abdul. And my mom would tell Paula Abdul. What about your first celebrity crush? Oh, I can answer this in five seconds. Mace. Oh, my God. Yes.

Yes. Like I had, remember like you get those. I mean, I don't know if you did this, but, like, buy the magazines and then cut out and then, like, put the follow. Oh, my goodness. I had, like, all these collages that I came out of me. M. Mace, M-A-dollar sign. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

He was amazing. He was now, like, a pastor? Is he a pastor now? I think so. Really? Yeah. Wow. That's kind of great.

So, Mace, and then it kind of, and then it, like, transferred over to then known as Puffy. Um, yeah. And then, and just to bring this all full circle, Christy, who I mentioned earlier. earlier who's like an auntie to me she for a very very long time was known as my puff daddy auntie because she introduced me she was like the cool like Hollywood my mom's like Hollywood friend and then in the later sorry you did not ask all these questions but then later on it obviously was Drake oh yeah and now I'm kind of like you're over you're over Drake yeah you're over Drake um best this is always a question that I it's always annoying when

people ask me this question, which is, you know, what was the best piece of, how many times have you had that, like, what's the best piece of advice your mother has ever given you? I'm just doing, I didn't press for the show that I've been doing, and I've asked it 80 times. Every time. I give the same answer every time. I'm like, my dad just told me not to give a shit on my 24th birthday. I need to, like, write this down, knowing that people ask this quite, yeah, like, but what was the best advice you ever received from your mother or your aunt or your grandmother? Um, I think it was kind of a collective piece of advice that, um, kind of boils down to fuck the haters.

Right. And that you know your purpose, you know your path, stay focused on that, you know, live that out. And anything that, you know, there will be naysayers. It will not be easy. Nothing comes easily. But, you know, it's all a distraction. And you know what's in your heart. You know what, you know, you were put here to do.

and go do that. And I think the key is like it's fuck the haters and also maybe a nicer way of putting that for more inspirational advice. It's just that like nothing comes easily. You know, we started this talking about in part my grandmother and you asked like what were the challenges she experienced.

And I think we've had a lot of great, you know, discussion around the patriarchy and society and families. And, you know, the world is not easy still for so many of us. And, you know, we, and yet, you know, we still try to pursue our hopes in dreams as best we can. And anything that gets in our way is exactly that. Something in the way, it's a distraction.

It's, you know, never let anyone else define that purpose for you. You define that on your terms. I love this. Beautiful. Great way to end. Awesome. Well, thank you. Well, thank you.

Again, this was super fun. I could talk to you for hours. Sibling Revelry is executive produced by Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson. Producer is Allison Bresden. Editor is. Josh Windish. Music by Mark Hudson, aka Uncle Mark. If you want to show us some love, rate the show and leave us a review.

This show is powered by Simplecast. Hi, I'm Jennifer Lopez, and in the new season of the Overcomfit podcast, I'm even more honest, more vulnerable, and more real than ever. Am I ready to enter this new part of my life? Like, am I ready to be in a relationship? Am I ready to have kids and to really just devote myself and my time? Join me for conversations about healing and growth, all from one of my favorite spaces, The Kitchen. Listen to the new season of the Overcombered podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast,

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