Sibling Revelry with Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson - Revel In It: ADHD Awareness with Kim and Penn Holderness

Episode Date: June 6, 2024

Kim and Penn Holderness are a comedic couple who have racked up billions of views with their viral family sketches. While they continue creating content for their millions of followers, they are also calling attention to Attention Deficit Hyperactive Disorder. While ADHD is often treated with medication, the Holderness family wants to shine a light on the many positives for people with ADHD, like creativity and problem-solving skills.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an IHeart podcast. September is a great time to travel, especially because it's my birthday in September, especially internationally. Because in the past, we've stayed in some pretty awesome Airbnbs in Europe. Did we've one in France, we've one in Greece,

we've actually won in Italy a couple of years ago. Anyway, it just made our trip feel extra special. So if you're heading out this month, consider hosting your home on Airbnb with the co-host feature you can hire someone local to help manage everything. Find a co-host at Airbnb.ca slash host. Hey, it's your favorite jersey girl, Gia Judice. Welcome to Casual Chaos, where I share my story.

This week, I'm sitting down with Vanderpump Rural Star, Sheena Shea. I don't really talk to either of them, if I'm being honest. There will be an occasional text, one way or the other, from me to Ariana. Maybe a happy birthday from Ariana to me. I think the last time I talked to Tom, it was like, congrats on America's Got Talent. This is a combo you don't want to miss. Listen to Casual Chaos on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Tune in to All the Smoke Podcast, where Matt and Stacks sit down with former first lady, Michelle Obama.

Folks find it hard to hate up close. And when you get to know people, you're sitting in their kitchen tables, and they're talking like we're talking. You know, you hear our story, how we grew up, how Barack grew up. And you get a chance for people to unpack and get beyond race. All the Smoke featuring Michelle. Obama. To hear this podcast and more, open your free iHeartRadio app. Search all the smoke and listen now. Hi, I'm Kate Hudson. And my name is Oliver Hudson. We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationship. And what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling rivalry. No, no. Sibling

Don't do that with your mouth. Sibling Reveory. That's good. It is Monday morning. I had a great weekend. So I'm ready to get into it right now with Penn and Kim Holderness. We're going to talk about ADHD.

They've done a lot of stuff. I'm not going to get into all that in this intro. But, you know, they're successful sort of digital. filmmakers you know they won the amazing race uh they're married i'm gonna get into you know if they've ever almost divorced everyone talks about the good stuff oh my god you're so happy no no no no let's see let's get into the let's get into the shit and then ADHD this is a big topic and uh i'm excited to talk to them about all of it so pan and cam why you come on in come on into my layer don't let

that word scare you because a layer can be positive you hang on honey hang on yeah honey honey honey honey chill out babe babe shut the fuck up honey just stop it I will handle this shit I know how to do this okay stop it yeah welcome to our marriage turn it on I know I love that those little like arguments those couple arguments of small the small ones like The micro arguments. Yes, yes. Yeah.

But if you're having micro arguments and that's it, you're doing something right, you know what I mean? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. My wife and I have been married for she had 18 years in June, June 9. I think it's 18. And, you know, we've had our big moments where, you know, it's been gnarly, but only because of certain circumstances. But as far as the fighting and the bickering goes, we just never fucking fight.

We just never really fight. But there's the little micro things. The micro things. And if you do those well, if you do those well, I do think it avoids the huge explosions. And they're also, they're like nature's way of releasing energy, like hurricanes. You know, if you can get like a couple of small thunderstorms, then you don't have like a category five hurricane. Yes. Yes. Totally. I totally agree with that.

You know. And at the end of the day, like, what's it worth? I know. That's not the hill I'm going to die on. You're fine. Oh, I mean, come on. I know you're, I know you've, I know you've, I know you've been late your entire life. So what am I worried about it?

I'm such a rule follower that I'm always on time. So like the rule follower to me would have been, I would have cried in the therapist office that my therapist was disappointed in me. So good on you, have that boundary and perspective, but that would have made me cry, that I disappointed my therapist. Well, we would, I'm not, anyway, that's a different podcast. No, it's all. It's all one and the same.

But thank you guys for coming on. Thank you. I'm excited to talk to you about a multitude of things, especially the ADHD conversation, which we can just get into first because that's the forefront of my mind. Because I've always wondered if I have ADHD. Obviously, there's different degrees of ADHD.

And it seems to be a buzz diagnosis right now. You know, I mean, I'm sure I have it. It feels like everyone has ADHD to some degree, you know, but I guess at what point does it start actually affecting your life in a negative way? Yeah, that's what it is, right? It's, it's interesting that you say that it seems like everyone's getting it. For starters, you and I are in our upper 40s, and it wasn't a thing growing up. It's almost always diagnosed in childhood, and there weren't a lot of people who knew what to look for in the 70s when we were going through elementary school.

And so most of the time people who are getting diagnosed, you know, our age, obviously, they're adults who have found systems in ways to mask it. The world gets more complicated when you start running your own business or if you get married or if you start raising a family, particularly if you start noticing that your family is having difficulties with that executive functioning and knowing that ADHD is a hereditary you know, it's a passed down thing. There's a lot of adults who are taking their kids into doctors and saying, you know, I think that my child has this.

And then they look at the checklist and they're like, holy crap, I think I might have it too. And you all work in a great, very creative field. And so we have found because we do the whole, you know, YouTube video thing that most of our fellow creators also have ADHD. So I feel like they attract like the creative, um, careers sort of attract that brain, which is a pretty cool brain, by the way. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, no, 100%. I mean, you know, getting into myself for just a second, I feel like person, I'm 47 years old. You know, I'll be 48 September. I do consider myself a talented human being. I've made a nice life for myself as an actor. You know, I'm a producer. You know, directing is sort of what my calling is and was and should be. there is a stop, there's a wall, there's a barrier that doesn't allow me.

Well, I don't say it doesn't allow me, but, you know, I just can't get over it. There's a, there's a, I sort of just get overwhelmed by the idea of it, which then makes me just completely stop. Instead of pushing through, you know, and fighting through. and I have that sort of that feeling of I just can't do it I'm just not going to do it you know or it becomes too overwhelming and I'm assuming that's part of my ADHD I don't even know you know ADHD gets along well with a lot of other stuff uh it gets along well it gets along well with OCD autism anxiety all of these things right I've got like I've got an ointch of anxiety I've had panic attacks I've never been diagnosed with it but

they're like really at the center of ADHD is emotional component is is flooding this emotional flooding where um you know your life can seem really really amazing and funny and you may laugh harder than anyone else on the planet and everything around you may look rosy and peachy keen and wonderful and then if something goes wrong or a fear creeps in it takes over everything and it doesn't necessarily last that long but it does result in particularly in childhood and sometimes into adulthood, some pretty heavy-duty mood swings, where you go from you know, blue to red in just a few minutes. And that's one of the things that we learned about in the book. Yeah. And I would think the procrastination of ADHD, and maybe that's what

you're dealing with is the procrastination of it? Or just, or are you saying it's more of like a barrier? You can't even get started. Well, there's a lot of procrastination. There is, you know, a lot of fear of failure, which I think is probably a different sort of. you know, avenue, but, uh, perfect example is even on, even on Friday, I didn't have much to do, you know, I didn't have much work to do. And now I'm sitting around in my house. I'm like, okay, I don't want to go. I got to go to something. Should I go to my boat and maybe go fish a little bit? No, no, no, maybe I'll go over here. It has traffic. You know, I'm, I'm rumining. I'm going through these things. And then I'm sitting in my house. I'm like, and then I start to feel like I'm going to go

crazy. I'm like, what the fuck? Like, go do something. I ended up sitting in my car. And, like, listening to Howard Stern because I was just kind of doing something. You needed to be doing. It was weird. And when I have a list, when I have a checklist, I like that. It's a little bit easier. All right. Now, that is an ADHD trade.

So, by the way, we are not doctors. Yeah. Not, not, this is just my personal thing. 100%. And by the way, just before you even go, like, I, I'm on Lexa Pro, 20 milligrams. Like, I have an anxiety since I was 20 years old, 23. I've had major bouts of it. And then, you know, so, you know, it's all, all signs are pointing to, uh, yay.

Yeah. Well, I mean, first of all, and you touch on it a bit, like, if you put systems in place to deal with the stuff that's hard for you, and the thing I always say about people with ADHD is the hard stuff sometimes is easy for us, but the easy stuff is really hard for us. Mm-hmm. Make a list and get through it, you know, getting through it. For me, that was like my first.

my first way to really deal with what was hard for me, mainly because the ability to check off the things on the list is this like mini dopamine hit accomplishment that I have. And our brains, if you have ADHD, you don't dispense and disperse dopamine well. It just doesn't, we don't know how to distribute it throughout the brain. And so for that reason, we're always hunting for it. It's why, like, I can get stuck playing a video game. I could start playing at 10 p.m. and then the sun's coming up. And I, so basically, I have to just like never play video games or that's going to happen. But the checklist is sort of like it's a little mini dopamine hit that people have like of all

types of ADHD and there's a lot of different ones almost universally say is like a way for them to get through some of their difficulties. Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is so far this interview is making me excited and depressed all at the same time.

You know why? You know because it's both. It's both. Yeah. Like ADHD is super. By the way, I don't have ADHD, but I'm diagnosed with the anxiety and. OCD. So it's interesting that like we pair up so well and we see that in so many people we've met that like one partner has ADHD, the other has anxiety. And like somehow the partnership just

sort of works. Let me ask you this too. So depressed, I get that. Are you a little depressed because I was when you're like, oh God, I have to make lists. Like I want to be fun and interesting and you're telling me to make lists. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Always bum me out. But if you get just past that and realize that it's going to take you like 20 minutes to do this. The rest of your day, you can be you and be like a spontaneous guy who randomly breaks out in song. Like I've heard it on your podcast before. Like you have all of that creativity. That's something that you can't really teach. And it's at this point, a lot of people in the entertainment industry have that. And that's also a byproduct of ADHD. Yeah. Are inherently more creative. I mean, there's been studies. And

like the eight-age deer's are the problem solvers. They think outside the box. And they are like, they are more creative people. So if like the structure, we have found in our house, if the structure is in place, he can go wild and spontaneous within that, within those boundaries. Mm-hmm. September always feels like the start of something new, whether it's back to school, new projects, or just a fresh season.

It's the perfect time to start dreaming about your next adventure. I love that feeling of possibility, thinking about where to go next, what kind of place will stay in, and how to make it feel like home. I'm already imagining the kind of Airbnb that would make the trip unforgettable, somewhere with charm character and a little local flavor. If you're planning to be away this September, why not consider hosting your home on Airbnb while you're gone? Your home could be the highlight of someone else's trip, a cozy place.

to land a space that helps them feel like a local. And with Airbnb's co-host feature, you can hire a local co-host to help with everything from managing bookings to making sure your home is guest ready. Find a co-host at Airbnb.ca slash host. Hey, it's your favorite Jersey girl, Gia Judice. Welcome to Casual Chaos, where I share my story. This week, I'm sitting down with Vanderpump role star, Sheena Shea. I don't really talk to either of them, if I'm being honest. There will be an occasional text, one way or the other, from me to Ariana, maybe a happy birthday from Ariana to me. I think the last time I talked to Tom, it was like, congrats on America's Got Talent. This is a combo you don't want to miss. Listen to casual chaos on the Iheart

radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly like very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric that this is something we've been doing for a hundred years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con

or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We'll talk about your stories. a little bit. I know you guys have had millions of people who follow you and you've

wrote and written some cool books. But my audience, you know, it's like I know it a little bit, but just give me the overview of sort of how this came about, how you sort of use this to your advantage to create a life and a career and all of these things, which is kind of a beautiful thing. I mean, you're taking something that is, you know, considered an affliction, which I don't know if it is unless it becomes extremely detrimental. And then out of that, you made something wonderful, you know? Well, thank you for saying that. We were both former TV news anchors, and we made one video 10 years ago with our family dancing around like idiots. Penn is a musician and he writes music. And so we did this sort of like dancing video. It went viral. Over the years,

we've kept making videos, but we've branched out and, you know, we had this is our second book and podcast and, you know, blogs and, you know, all these different avenues. And over the last few years, I mean, we did some heavy work and some heavy work on a relationship and tends ADHD, my anxiety, but we did a deep dive to try to understand that because our son was diagnosed. And he just felt very called to write this book. ADHD is. awesome. And I really do think it is his calling. His dad was a minister. And so he didn't go into the ministry, but I feel like this is like what he was supposed to do with his life. Did I summarize that? That was very sweet. No, also just I wanted to let people know because we make a lot of

content about ADHD and to your point, like quite a few people watch it. And they're like, oh, this is, this is great. Like it's not all bad. And I want to put that into writing, but I also want to make sure people know the stories about how it sucks. Yeah. Because you can't, it's, you can't just be all rosy and sunshine. Like I almost burned the house down this year.

Did you leave some shit on the, on the stove? So it's, and I was trying to get my kid out of the, out of the house. And I was making breakfast. And I had two stoves. And then I had the water and I had the lunch and I had the shoes.

And then I got him out the door. And I was a special morning. So I made bacon. And Kim, Kim calls me. She's like, the fire alarms going off. I'm 20 minutes away.

dropping off my son. No one's in the house and there's like a grease fire in our kitchen. So, and it's because my executive functioning, which is 100% ADHD, let me down and the fact that I was cooking that bacon completely left my working memory.

So like I needed to understand that and find out how to keep that from happening again. How do you feel about medication? I know you're not a doctor, but not to knock doctors, but I think sometimes experience almost Trump's medical in a sense, meaning a doctor can be technical and, you know, give you the reasons why, but if you experience it and you have real life on the boots, boots on the ground experience,

sometimes it's even better. But how do you feel about that? I mean, I take Lexapro for anxiety, you know, not necessarily depression, but anxiety. And then my kid, Wilder, when he was little, he's 16 now. But, you know, he was having trouble with math, and they wanted, and he'd been, through an evaluation and they wanted to put him on medication. And I was like, no. Even though I'm on medication, I was like, he's fucking in first grade.

Like, there's ways to figure this shit out. Like, let's let him grow up a little bit and see where he's at, you know? I think the, thank you for the disclaimer that I'm not a doctor. We'll say that one more. Yes, yes, I know. Clinically speaking, the overwhelming majority of people who have taken medication for ADHD ADHD have responded positively to those symptoms, right? Mm-hmm.

but if you use that model, that medical model of like treating a cold, like if there's something wrong, let's take some medicine to fix it. That may not be as effective as looking at like a strengths-based approach to how to get through this whole thing, which is like looking at when your son, you, me are like crushing it and trying to recreate those things, right? Like when am I really good? Is it in the morning? Why? Oh, is your son like really, really smart at 8 a.m. but he's having trouble at 3 p.m. What can we do in place

where he can make it through the rest of the day? So to say, that's all that to say that like there is a movement toward more of the strengths-based approach to these sorts of things. Personally, I went on medicine

my senior year in college because I was effing, failing out of school. You'd been on academic probation twice. Yeah. Oh, really? Well, hold before, but what did you attribute that to?

I mean, obviously you're an intellectual person, you're a smart person. Was it just pure like, I just don't want to do it. There were a lot of new distractions. Bear, I had a mom who did an amazing job keeping me on track in high school and she was nowhere to be found. Beer is great.

Beer's awesome. Honestly, one of the most major things was the fact that I was in like 400 person auditoriums and I was sitting in the back seat, right? Like I didn't have the one-on-one kind of attention. There were so many distractives for me in the classroom. and I just, you know, I would just become a wallflower in the back of that room and I didn't, I wasn't absorbing things. So the medicine really helped me. I went from a C student to an A student like overnight and I'm just, this is just my personal experience. I didn't love the person

that I was otherwise. I like missed these certain quirks. Yeah, okay, get into that for a second because I was going to ask that like, you know, yes, it does sort of benefit you in certain ways, but what might it take away? And again, this is just a personal experience. Yeah, I know because we're not doctors. This is just personal experience. Personal experience. In the brief time that I was on medicine, which by the way, all my college roommates stole and used all the time. And I had more. My brain was like a VIP party with a bouncer and a rope that was able to like let in only the things that they wanted to let in, like the task at the end, right? And so it was a VIP party in my head and only a few people were invited. And for that reason, I was able to

succeed and graduate from a good school and kind of get to work in my life. But my regular brain is like an open air like Coachella festival. Like it's there's, you can feel the wind. Yeah. You can ever be excited, you can feel the wind and the rain and you take it all in. and a lot of times that leads to distraction and fixation, but it's also where all of my inspiration and creativity comes from is the ability to have all of this stuff coming at me. And whatever genetically the ADHD brain is also is like that. And I love that.

And it just felt like it was gone. And what I did was I found a job, not a high paying job, but I found a job that allowed me to get through it without failure, which was a local news job where you basically have to keep people interested. And if, you know, if you don't hook them after eight seconds, kind of like in comedy, you're toast. And so I found a job like that to kind of get me through. I found a wife who puts up with me. He puts up with me too.

Well, how did you, but how did you deal with him? Meaning, like, of course, you get together and it's beautiful. And, you know, there's that honeymoon phase of like, oh, my God, we're all, we're so amazing to like we're going to fucking conquer the world. Nobody's no love like this before. Right. So all the things that he's describing, like he was so spontaneous and funny and charming and such a goofball,

like that's what I fell in love with. So really his ADHD brain is what I fell in love with. When we got married and had kids and they're, you know, and it wasn't just us, that's when I started to notice like people would joke and say, oh, look, you have like three kids. I did not laugh.

That is not funny to me. Like, he just start figuring this stuff out. Examples, being like leaving shit on the stove type things. Leaving, leaving shit on the stove or like. Just being a slob and thinking it was disrespectful. Yeah, I think, I mean, just general, just being a slob and or missing things. I mean, just like being late to things, missing things. Listening.

Listening. Listening. Listening because you didn't have the attention span to listen. Yeah, okay. Yeah. And so when we first started dating, there was no other distraction. You had a couple kids in a job and there was nothing. But to be fair, again, I have anxiety and OCD.

So we have been able to give each other grace because of that. Like I have my days where I'm freaking out and he steps up. So I think that's why I'm able to offer a lot of grace when he has his. And I see him doing the work. So in our house, ADHD is an explanation. It's not an excuse. So I see him doing the work. And he feels great shame if he's messing things up.

But our family is not against medication. I'm on medication. So like we are not, we are not against medication, but just for his personal experience. Was there that critical moment? your relationship where it was, I'm honestly a make or break, but it was, well, we need to figure this shit out because I love you, you love me, but why we need to figure out how to continue in the best way. It's funny. Our first book was a result of marriage counseling we did, and you were explaining with your wife, like you have a couple just because of circumstances,

you have some co-ups, but other than that, micro arguments, I will say looking back, a lot of the work we did on communication was because of our neurodiversity. So was me keeping, you know, me holding back because of my anxiety, him, you know, the disorganization and the not listening because it was ADHD. I think it was really that it was the first discovery of that. And then also profusely apologizing, like that was me. I was like, what can I do to get back to being best friends and maybe having sex later? I'm like, what do I have to do? And that was part of that emotional kind of dysregulation where the world just seemed awful when my wife was mad at me and like, what do I do to like change the mood here, which is also part of ADHD.

You shouldn't do. Like that's, you can't just, I loved it. If you just profusely apologize, you are, you're basically discounting what your values and opinions are. So then through your experience with ADHD, now I want to come again to you and sort of of your anxiety a little as well, but, but through your experience, without medication and I'm asking for myself

and then anyone else who's listening you know but lists and then what are some other you know sort of ideas to help you go through get through the day you know and you use your ADHD to your advantage use that creativity use that

dream like sort of state that I live in every single second of my life which I'm like you I love it I mean it's very creative. I feel like my brain is different and I think different and I look at life a little bit differently, you know, but in those moments of desperation, how do you get out of them? So for me, it's been upstream solutions, which means like I try to cut the problem off before it becomes a problem. So I set a timer when I turn the oven on, right? And I like, like, Siri set the timer for 10 minutes. So if I leave the house after, you know, five or six minutes and it goes off,

I'm like, oh, I got to turn around and go turn the stove off. which I've done before. I lost three wedding rings. Not in like the way that you think. Never that's a fun way. Yeah, but like I was, I put one on the roof of my car

because I had to put on hair product because I had to do something on television. And then, and then the other two times were like at a gym or at a tennis court. So I got a tattoo of my wife's name on my finger. I have that too. You got the tattoo?

Oh, I have a ring over it, but I have a, yeah, he's double. He's nice. So I think that was the solution to that. I like Kim had a lot of like 3 a.m. splashdowns because I wouldn't put the toilet seat down.

It's just one of those little things that you're supposed to remember. So now, and this is weird, but I just pee sitting down every time. Oh, oh, by the way, we could do it a whole other podcast on peeing sitting down. I have done Instagram videos of this. Like, sorry, guys, it's my time to just chill out for a second. Like, yeah, I'm at home. Why am I lifting up to the trip? Let me just sit down and hang for a second.

Yeah, just hang for a second. You also don't know what might happen. But you're like, oh, there's something I got to do what way. Exactly. I'm sitting down too. I love it. He also has a magnet on top of his car. It doesn't actually hold anything, but it's a visual cue to not put a coffee cup there

because he lost a dozen coffee cups because he'll put it there or he'll put something else on top of the car. And that same magnet's on the dry, like the washing machine dryer because he has to take out his inhaler and chapstick before. So there's like those visual cues. We have friends, adults that struggle with lists, like writing things down. So they'll take pictures of things and actually print out pictures of like what a kid's lunch is supposed to look like. And just those like visual cues and reminders. And so then also just remember like because if you're an ADHD person like me, if these things seem to bum you out when you're doing them, like, oh, I do all this.

Like I have to, you know, make the ones. Just remember and tell yourself this. my job is to make weird videos and go on podcasts. Yeah. That stuff comes with this stuff. Right. Right. Like they can't exist without the other one, in my opinion.

And that has made it easier for me to work on some of the other, like the things that are more difficult to me that shouldn't be. That's a great point. That's a great point. You know, I mean, it's a tradeoff, essentially. You know, would you consider yourself severe? Do you have severe? Would you have severe ADHD? because I don't even know

I don't know what the sort of parameters are from mild to severe I thought it was a pretty scorching case and I think at times it like I can flare. Get me pretty bad but we've done several book tours and we've met people and spoken to people who have much more

intense ADHD and also a lot of times ADHD that is combined with other types of disorders and realities so I I'm saying not all to say that I feel extremely fortunate. It's a spectrum? Everybody says, yeah. And then how many kids do you have? Two. 17-year-old and 14-year-old boy. September always feels like the start of something new, whether it's back to school, new projects, or just a fresh season. It's the perfect time to start dreaming about your next adventure. I love that feeling of possibility, thinking about where to go next, what kind of place we'll stay in, and how to

make it feel like home. I'm already imagining the kind of Airbnb that would make the trip unforgettable, somewhere with charm character and a little local flavor. If you're planning to be away this September, why not consider hosting your home on Airbnb while you're gone? Your home could be the highlight of someone else's trip, a cozy place to land, a space that helps them feel like a local. And with Airbnb's co-host feature, you can hire a local co-host to help with everything, from managing bookings to making sure your home is guest ready. Find a co-host at Airbnb.ca slash host. Hey, it's your favorite jersey girl, Gia Judice.

Welcome to Casual Chaos, where I share my story. This week, I'm sitting down with Vanderpump Rule Star, Sheena Shea. I don't really talk to either of them, if I'm being honest. There will be an occasional text, one way or the other, from me to Ariana. Maybe a happy birthday from Ariana to me. I think the last time I talked to Tom. It was like, congrats on America's Got Talent. This is a combo you don't want to miss.

Listen to Casual Chaos on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It may look different, but Native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for of hundreds of years, you carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with

other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, and the boy has ADHD, and what about your girl? She does not.

We took them to the same testing, and I thought maybe she would have the inattentive type, but no, she does not. But it shows up differently in women and girls. Oh, it does. Oh, yeah. And that's why women and girls are underdiagnosed as our minorities. Highly intelligent people are under diagnosed.

Yeah, it's a big problem because women with ADHD, it is so hard for women because there's this expectation that society has that we are the ones that are supposed to keep everything together. And if you're a mom with ADHD, it just sucks. So it's all that shame and the expectations added on. Oh, my God, I wish my wife, she's literally sleeping upstairs right now. That woman, sleep is, she's obsessed with sleep. I mean, to the point where it's nuts. She's sleep crowned pillows. She has 15 pillows.

I can't even see her at night. We are the same person. I don't have, I don't have FOMO. I don't have fear of missing out. I have bombs. I have fear of sleep. Like, asleep. Yes.

Oh, yes. Oh, my God. She does not have fear missing out. I feel, and maybe this is ADHD. I feel like if I take a nap, like, I'm missing something. Or something is like, I need to be doing something. This is a waste. Yeah.

So she took the kids to school and then went back to bed. I'm like, okay. Does she have like the head blackout pillow and then the long barrier pillow to keep bodies away from each other when there's like things if she can have her own cocoon? She has the body. She puts one for her arm so she doesn't quink her neck. She's got a sleep crown, which is like this pillow that goes over your eyes. And then she's got like fake eyelashes or, you know, the little eyelashes. So she's like kind of sleeping on her back.

She looks nuts. Like when I look over at her, she looks like a dead mummy that's encased in pillows. I love it so much. It feels like so safe and cozy. But anyway, so she has, I think that's why I was saying I wish she was here. She has for sure ADHD. you. Yeah.

Going back to women, so think about being a girl and you've got ADHD. And by the way, you don't just get ADHD. You've got it in your brain or you don't have it. It's what you're born with. And it's whether it presents itself, you know, problematically. That's when you get a diagnosis. But it's a type of brain. It's not a behavioral that you acquire.

And so as a kid, she probably did a really good job of internalizing her difficulties. Like all the other boys were running around in plain sight, hyperactive. And the girls were internalizing and finding ways to cope with their differences. And so they weren't diagnosed. And then fast forward to them being a woman. And stereotypically in a lot of marriages, like, these poor women who have ADHD have to deal with sign up genius. Read school emails. And like read school emails and do paperwork and all this crap that no one with an ADHD brain would ever give a flip about.

right and so it's not only is it like super underdiagnosed but a lot of women feel a lot of shame that they're not able to get through these things when in fact they've got this this brain difference they'd probably be useful to to know that you have yeah dude spot on with my wife the shame part too it's like oh I just can't do it I can't do it I don't know why I just guys just like I'm yeah I mean and sometimes like maybe it's helpful to know why and then you know it's not an excuse but just to know why it would be helpful. Yeah.

So with your son, then, did you notice something or wanted to just get your kids diagnosed just because? So he was doing a lot of stuff that I was doing as a kid. Like, interesting little things like this is,

when you have a certain type of inpatient ADHD, you chew on your shirt collar. There's like a big, it's like a wet mark. It's like, have you been running? No,

been sitting in class trying to focus. It's actually like, it's a way to, stave off distraction, but you just... It's just a way to regulate. I know. There was like weird physical tics he was having. Yeah, that was the first sign for...

Yeah. And then the emotional side, like the flooding part. Crying easily. Yeah, which, you know... I used to do. Yeah, we wanted to support his emotions and all that, but it was like a little... And then it was fine until like school became an issue and we needed to just make sure he was getting a combination.

So that's why... And to be clear, he's super creative and funny, spontaneous. So he had all that. other stuff as well. Yeah. Gosh, no, I know. I mean, and then you just work with them. I mean, what's nice is, you know, you have experience and you know the tools, you know,

because you've been through it. It's real life stuff. I mean, similarly with my son, Wilder, you know, in eighth grade, he went through some anxiety where I had to keep him home from school for three weeks. And he was like, I don't feel like I'm real. That's what he kept saying, that disassociation. Oh, wow. And I wasn't afraid because I knew exactly what he was going through.

I lived it. I live it. And so I worked with him and he was journaling and he was doing his stuff and trying to meditate. You know, he eventually came out of it. And so far, you know, it's been two and a half years and he's been fine. But I knew how to sort of combat it or at least, you know, be empathetic and understand sort of how to hold him. both physically and even just emotionally, you know. So I assume you had the same experience with your boy, right?

It's like, I got you. I know what this is. I know how to help you. I mean, the empathy is a really important part, right? Like saying, saying I'm here and I understand what's going on. Like that, how important was that for Wilder? Like, when he heard that. It was big.

Yeah. It was big. Yeah. I mean, I think it made him feel better. It didn't take away some of these symptoms. But, you know, all I can do was just to reiterate over and over how much I understood what he's feeling. And I know it feels scary, but you have to understand that this will go away. And you have the power, too.

Like, you can control. Some of it is out of your control, but you can get it back into control, you know. And I'm happy he went through it young because if he does experience it again in his life, he will understand it a little bit better, you know. And I just said, look, you're not going to die. Number one. I know it feels like you don't exist anymore and you're someone standing on your chest, but it's just, it's not the case. You know, you have to first understand that part. You know, I think it helps. Of course, now he ignores me, but, you know. My anxiety is a beast, and so often anxiety and ADHD are combined. There's also some great,

you're going to think this is crazy, but part of your anxious kind of centered brain, you're so empathetic and you're like so caring toward other people because it helps you feel not only what's going on with you, but like with other people. And it's one of the things I really like about you. Me?

Yeah. I can relate to that. I feel a lot. I mean, which explains why, I'm like bawling through, you know, six graders doing dance routines, you know what I'm saying? But I do.

I feel a ton. And sometimes I feel like it's just a little too much, you know. That is so excited. I have done something to where, like the work I'm doing with my therapist, because now we're going to make this about anxiety, is that I, I've just said as a woman, I'm like, it's fine. It's fine. Everything is fine my whole life.

And I'll just have like a few panic attacks. And then I just bury everything. so I don't feel anything. I don't feel. And it's like, so I'm working on, I have to now, if I'm feeling something, I have to name the emotion. So it's like this opposite.

Like, yeah, it's very strange. It's very strange. How does your anxiety manifest itself? Because everyone's just a little bit different. You know, mine's switched throughout the years from stomach stuff like throwing up, not able to go outside to not being able to breathe to that disassociation, you know.

I have definitely dissociated. I'll be in weird places. I was in Whole Foods looking at, you know, spaghetti sauce and I called Penn. And I just, like, walked away from my grocery cart and I got in the car. I'm like, I'm not doing today. Today's not doing. So I'll have, like, very strange cues. And then my body and nervous system just shut down.

I just shut down. And I don't talk. I just, and then he's amazing and wonderful. He kind of handles the day. And then the next day we'll be back. better. But since I have to say, I got back, I got off of meds for a long time and I got back on meds and it's been better. Yeah. But I don't, I don't, I don't, he'll try to talk to me and I'm like, we're not talking about this. So if I talk, I get, it's like even worse if I talk.

It's just so strange, but I don't feel. You'll talk on your own time. I've learned that. Yeah, but I don't like, don't ask me about it. So. And it's hard to even talk about it. Like, you're doing a great job talking about it. Because he has, because he. Oh, it's someone else who's Yeah, it's somebody else who's got it. There you got it. There you go. Oh, yeah. See, it's funny because I was the opposite.

I would love to talk. I would just talk, talk, talk. Like, yeah, I feel this way. Like, I'm fucked up. Like, I can't go out of my house. And I feel like I'm going to throw up. This is my 20s. Like, I would go surf, you know, because I didn't want it to keep me.

I didn't want it to have its hands around my neck. I'm like, I need to go live my life. So I would force myself to get in the water and surf or do whatever. I'd feel like I'm going to die while I'm paddling into a wave. I'm just, I think that's way healthier. I'm kind of jealous that you were able to do that. I just shut down and I couldn't even move.

That's pretty cool. Yeah, I mean, I had the kids, you know, and then I, later in life, I had a major bout like three years ago because I went off of my Lexapro trying to wean off. And I had that withdrawal symptoms that just threw me for a loop. I mean. Why did you want to wean off? I don't even know. I was just like, you know what?

I've been on this for a long time now. Like, I feel good. Like, you feel good there for you wanted to see if, like, oh, you know. Yeah, I guess. I don't know. It was a strange. Was this a doctor recommended weaning? No, no. I mean, I went through the doctor to wean off. But I was just like, I think I'm all right. Like, let me just see what it feels like to not be on this stuff anymore. And then it was just a summer of insanity. We spend the summers in Colorado. And, you know, we're a big mountain bike family. The kids downhill are flying through the air. And I like to mountain bike too. And it's just fishing and biking and golf. And I had to be a

dad. So I was just waking up every morning like, holy shit, going to the mountain and mountain biking and coming home and then like having a few panic attacks and losing. I mean, it was a rough summer. Ended up getting a gig that had to go to Albuquerque for. So I said, look, I need to function now. I cannot go to Albuquerque and be on set and be this way. So I went back on and now it's been a few years. And I'm just going to stay on it. I got off of medication for probably eight years. And then only recently did I get back on. But I was white knuckling it through life.

Like everything was hard. And I finally said to myself, like, why am I doing this? Like why? So I'm on it forever or some version of it forever. Yeah. I know. It doesn't matter. I don't know.

I mean, I felt that. I felt that there was some, you know, it was taboo a little bit. I'm like, I don't want to be on antidepressants. Like, what does that say about me? You know, I got over that pretty quickly and now I'm able to talk about it. Yeah, I feel like I wanted to be able to say, like, I could do this myself. Like, there was that little bit of shame of, like, I'm a little bit, like, my anxiety brain goes to if there's a zombie apocalypse and I can't get my medicine, like, what's going to happen? And then I have to say, well, if there's a zombie apocalypse and I can't get access to this medicine, I'd have a bigger problem.

Yeah, but, like, definitely. Yeah, anyway. I would think so. But, wait, first to surrender. I'm not going to fight the zombies. Just take me. Yeah, interesting take that. Use the resources for, like, the young and strong.

What's nice about the zombie thing is, you know, you turn into a zombie. You don't die. So that would probably take away your anxiety. Yeah, because then it would be, you'll just be a zombie. And then, you know, then you don't have anxiety anymore. I know. God, be cured. I know.

So maybe. Eating other people's brains. Right. This is what we need. to conquer our anxieties and the zombie apocalypse should do it. Great. Sorry.

It definitely takes a lot of responsibility off of your plate. That's kind of a very strange direction and I apologize. No, no, no. Oh, you gotta know you're talking to. I am a strange direction. September always feels like the start

of something new, whether it's back to school, new projects, or just a fresh season. It's the perfect time to start dreaming about your next adventure. I love that feeling of possibility, thinking about where to go next, what kind of place will stay in, and how to make it feel like home. I'm already imagining the kind of Airbnb that would make the trip unforgettable, somewhere with charm, character, and a little local flavor. If you're planning to be away this September, why not consider hosting your home on Airbnb

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from me to Ariana, maybe a happy birthday from Ariana to me. I think the last time I talked to Tom, it was like, congrats on America's Got Talent. This is a combo you don't want to miss. Listen to Casual Chaos on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

get your podcasts. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for hundreds of years.

You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of, of reservation basketball. Every day, native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream.

Listen to Burn Sageburn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So how is this? So if you guys have just learned to operate together, this is really interesting conversation because someone with anxiety, OCD, and then ADHD, there's a lot of acronyms going on in your relationship, you know. And so, you know, I guess there's a comfort in that in a strange way. Well, definitely, now that we've learned what's going on with the other person,

like we're able to empathize with them in a way that maybe a neurotypical person wouldn't be able to do. It's a great explanation. I think we both have this mantra that our brains, like, are an explanation. but it's not an excuse like if I keep forgetting stuff and I'm like oh sorry ADHD here's the book like you you need to definitely work your ass off to make sure that not that it'll never happen again but maybe it'll happen less yeah I mean I don't want to speak for Kim but she's like because of this journey we've gone on she's been super self-aware of when she's struggling and

as hard as it is to talk about it you have talked about it yeah and that brings us closer together I think. Yeah, but it is a weird thing that we are a husband and wife that work together and have stayed married and are pretty well. So, yeah, and I think we learned through the research in this book. I learned so much about the ADHD brain. I used to get deeply offended by some of the stuff he was doing. And now I realized, like, it's not really his fault.

And so, like, it got offended at some of my anxiety quirks. I mean, that would be the same thing. Same thing. I remember, I was like, why can't you stop and smell the roses? Like, why can't you just be something awesome just happened? Why can't we celebrate? I didn't get it. Yeah.

And you know, why aren't you happy right now? And I'm like, I just need a minute. I know. Yeah. It's so true. It's so true. We can get impatient. Yeah.

We can get impatient. Yeah. So the, what's the book? Just what's the book called again? It's called ADHD is awesome. The human condition to me is the most. interesting thing what is the human condition I've heard that before like what is that being a human is just just it's it to me it encompasses everything okay there you just the way that we are all made up of

the same sort of flesh and blood and organs but our conditions and how we live and operate through life are all different our afflictions everyone is afflicted we're all fucked up a little bit you know what I mean that's just the way it is and and even when you go get into the parenting realm You know, I'm a product of divorce and I have a stepdad who's amazing and, you know, but it's definitely affected me, my childhood, you know, which in turn through relationships and work and careers, I think when it sort of rears its head the most, when your insecurity sort of, you know, flourish or become embellished is when you are in loving situations, work situations where your self-esteem sort of comes into play and just how you deal with them.

And I just love that we all have, we all have our things. And I also have said this a million times on this show, but I don't think it's about if we screw up our kids, it's just to what degree. Because we're all doing our best. You know what I mean? We're trying to do our best. I had a conversation with my teenager when he started to become a teenager. And he's my first one.

Your first pancake. I haven't experienced it yet, right? And so he's going through whatever he's going through. And I'm trying to navigate this new world. of parenting, but you do have to switch a little bit. And I said, look, it was a, it was a situation or some sort of a fight or whatever went down. I said, look, wilder. I said, I'm doing this for the first time as well. So I'm not going to do it right. And neither are you. And, you know, I'm trying to navigate this with you. So I will definitely apologize if I do something

or if I feel like I've done it wrong. But it's all about us sort of being gentle with each other and, you know, just trying to get through this sort of time, just admitting to him that I don't know what the fuck I'm doing yet. You're number one. But remember this. Yes, we have all screwed up our kids. We don't know how.

We're going to find out in a couple of years. They're going to be like, this is what you did right. Exactly. That's going to happen. Totally. But also, you've already done like four or five incredible things that have steered your kids in the right direction and you don't know what that is either right all this like huge unknown and at some point like your your kids are going to come back and say remember when you

did this like that made me this yes so true never thought of that way that's the optimism that's the optimist in this guy yeah yeah it is just really quickly um the book the ADHD is awesome so awesome is used in two different ways meaning it's amazing and it's also the word awesome can be interpreted as not negative but like no it's in the definition it's terrifying right awesome okay terrifying if you read it if they use the word awesome in the bible and i'm not trying to bible thump here but it's like it's something that scares the shit out of everybody so that like that that is like awesome has two meanings but both of them mean pretty powerful and a lot of times difficult to comprehend and so that traditional definition of awesome does a great

job of explaining ESPN, or ESPN. By the way, ESPN is on in my house 24-7, so. Yeah, I believe, like the PGHA. Anyway, so I'm sorry, I just call it. Oh, the PGA. Zander winning that. I'm so happy for him. I did everything

but stuck the landing on that, though. I felt like I was really crushing it. And then I called it ESPN. I love ESPN. Are you crazy? ADHD. P. Same. Both are awesome. Both are awesome.

Well, I honestly can't wait to get into your book. I mean, that is... Well, make sure... I'm sorry, you don't have it. Sorry. No, I will. I will. I'm going to get it.

But, you know, rarely on podcasts, do you, like, learn enough a lot about yourself? But this has been really cool for me. Because I've always suspected, never really needed or felt like I had to go get diagnosed. Because I kind of already know, like, yeah, there's something. weird. You know, I love who I am, but there's definitely things that I wish I could break through, you know. I think the lists are great for me. I know that when I do make a list and I fucking check that shit off. And you said that dopamine hit, that's so spot on because the minute you're on your reminders and you go, book, and it disappears, you're like, let's go. Here we go. And then it's

four o'clock and the kids, you pick up the kids or whatever. And now your day is a, you've had a fruitful, accomplished day. And, okay, this feels good. You know, I think that's huge for me. Yeah. And I think even from a creative place, and tell me if I'm wrong here, but, you know, I think a gift that I have is,

I'm a great writer, okay? I just don't do it because, again, there's an overwhelming sort of thing for me. Yeah, procrastination, it gets too big, but if it's not good enough, I definitely am a perfectionist when it comes to those things. instead of just regurgitating everything out onto a page

and then fine-tuning it. But I've been setting half-hour note, half-out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, where it's like, just sit down for a half an hour and write. I mean, even if you don't do anything, it's in front of you like this. And then if it goes beyond that, great, but at least you're giving yourself a half hour

to sort of do something, you know? Yeah, that's kind of my magic amount as well. And I just call them micro-deadlines. I'm like, I want to get two pages done. at 30 minutes is a good example and then stopping and taking as much time as you want to in between sometimes you get done and you're like, okay, this is working.

Let's set the timer again or be gentle and gentle on yourself and say, I'm going to check this out in a week or so. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you guys, this was awesome. I mean, really, really fun. Are you in L.A.? No, we're in Raleigh, North Carolina. Oh, lucky.

I want to get out of L.A. I'm so right. You were there last week, though. Born and raised, ready to go. go. But my kids are ingrained. My kids are here. That's it. We're done. L.A. is wonderful and we love it so much, but I will say there's a lot of people in our neighborhood who

have moved from L.A. Oh, yeah. The Kanga Line across the country. Oh, it's crazy. I mean, if our kids weren't so into a girl, my son is a girlfriend and they just are home. Yeah. I'm done. We're done. You're there. Also, L.A. is awesome.

It is. It is. It is. It is. I just the traffic. and I need space. I want space. I want to land. I want to look out. I want to be in the mountains, you know. Yeah. Well, hopefully we can get you in the mountains one day.

Yes. Yes. Well, thank you guys so much. This is awesome. I can't wait to read your book for real. I think it'll be good for me. I really do. We'll get it to you and we'll get you in Audible as well.

Yeah. In both versions. But the book itself is like, it's got a lot of visuals to it. So that's ADHD brain. I love that. I can't wait. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you guys.

Thanks, man. Thanks. All right. See ya. Well, I learned a lot about myself. I am totally fucked up. No, I think I have ADHD. God damn it.

I think I have ADHD. I think my son does. I think my wife does. Yesterday, it's funny, I was with my son, with Bodie. And he's like, dad, like, I think I'm, like, nuts. I'm like, what do you mean? He's 14. He goes, I just think I'm like crazy.

Like, I'm always talking to myself and being weird. And I'm like, well, yeah. I mean, you're a Hudson, dude. Like, this is just what we do. And maybe you are nuts. I mean, we're all nuts. So, I don't know, maybe my entire family is completely crazy. And that's just the way we are.

Anyway, that was great. Thank you guys for coming on and doing that. And I'm out. I'm going to go. I'm going to go. I love you. Hey, it's your favorite jersey girl, Gia Judice. Welcome to Casual Chaos, where I share my story.

This week, I'm sitting down with Vanderpump Rule Star, Sheena Shea. I don't really talk to either of them, if I'm being honest. There will be an occasional text one way or the other for me to R. Ariana, maybe a happy birthday from Ariana to me. I think the last time I talked to Tom, it was like, congrats on America's Got Talent. This is a combo you don't want to miss. Listen to Casual Chaos on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Tune in to All the Smoke Podcast, where Matt and Stacks sit down with former first lady, Michelle Obama.

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I was diagnosed with cancer on Friday and cancer free the next Friday. No chemo, no radiation, none of that. On a recent episode of Culture Raises Us podcast, I sat down with Warren Campbell, Grammy winning producer, pastor, and music executive to talk about the beats, the business, and the legacy behind some of the biggest names in gospel, R&B, and hip-hop. Professionally, I started at Deadwell Records. From Mary Mary to Jennifer Hudson, we get into the soul of the music and the purpose that drives it. Listen to Culture raises us on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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