Sibling Revelry with Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson - Revel In It: Surviving the Wolf of Wall Street

Episode Date: March 5, 2025

Dr. Nadine is the real-life ex-wife of the Wolf of Wall Street, as played by Margot Robbie in the movie. She tells Oliver how much of the flick was real, and how she married Jordan Belfort despite having doubts. Did they really fight about drugs and money? Did he con her like he did his clients?  Plus, a look at how she ignored the red flags, why she says anyone can fall for a con-artist, and how she dealt with the aftermath of a tumultuous marriage. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Do we really need another podcast with a condescending finance brof trying to tell us how to spend our own money? No thank you. Instead, check out Brown Ambition. Each week, I, your host, Mandy Money, gives you real talk, real advice with a heavy dose of I feel uses. Like on Fridays when I take your questions for the BAQA. Whether you're trying to invest for your future, navigate a toxic workplace, I got you. Listen to Brown Ambition.

on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. It's important that we just reassure people that they're not alone, and there is help out there. The Good Stuff podcast, season two, takes a deep look into One Tribe Foundation, a non-profit fighting suicide in the veteran community. September is National Suicide Prevention Month, so join host Jacob and Ashley Schick as they bring you to the front lines of One Tribe's mission. One Tribe save my life twice. Welcome to Season 2 of the Good Stuff.

Listen to the Good Stuff podcast on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, it's Jemma's Begg, host of the Psychology of Your 20s. This September at the Psychology of Your 20s, we're breaking down the very interesting ways psychology applies to real life, like why we crave external validation. I find it so interesting that we are so quick to believe others' judgments of us and not our own judgment of ourselves. So according to this study, not being liked actually creates similar pain levels as real life physical pain.

Learn more about the psychology of everyday life and, of course, your 20s. This September, listen to the psychology of your 20s on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, it's Honey German, and I'm back with season two of my podcast. Grazacios, come again. We got you when it comes to the latest in music and entertainment with interviews with some of your favorite Latin artists and celebrities. You didn't have to audition? No, I didn't audition. I haven't auditioned in like over 25 years.

Oh, wow. That's a real G-talk right there. Oh, yeah. We'll talk about all that's viral and trending With a little bit of chisement And a whole lot of laughs And of course, the great bevras you've come to expect Listen to the new season of Dresses Come Again

On the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast Or wherever you get your podcast Hi, I'm Kate Hudson And my name is Oliver Hudson We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationship and what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling rivalry. No, no.

Sibling reverie. Don't do that with your mouth. Sibling revelry. That's good. Moller Hudson here. taking you down the yellow brick road of another podcast, which leads to Oz. What is Oz? I don't know.

I don't know. Maybe Oz is me. Maybe I'm leading you down a road to myself. You see how deep I can get sometimes when I just let my mind wander? I got a week left on this show in Toronto. And if you've listened, you understand that I'm here, ready to get home, loving what I'm doing. loving the cast loving the movie

loving my son being in this movie but I'm ready to get home I love you Toronto but LA is calling me LA is calling me but in the meantime we are here we're doing a show we're doing a podcast I'm in my room

as I am and so unprofessional everyone else has these like incredible setups with neon lights and signs and mics that sort of float in the ether and you know here I like super analog with a fucking white V-neck on horrible lighting in a room. But I guess that's what makes it me. I'm not very flashy, but at the same time, you know, once I get back to L.A.,

maybe I'll set something up really dope. But we're on the fly, baby. We're on the go. Anyway, I'm not going to spend too much time talking about myself because we have Dr. Nadine, Dr. Ney in the waiting room. doing awesome work involving toxic relationships. But, you know, I'm pretty sure she came to it late, too. I think she got her Ph.D., you know, pretty late in life, I think.

Obviously, her character, she was the inspiration for Wolf of Wall Street, Margo Robbie's character, Belford, Naomi Belford. Well, without further Let's bring her on Hi How are you? I'm really good, thank you. Are you good?

Where are you? I'm in Boca Raton, Florida. Oh, nice. You're in the warm, I'm in the freezing cold. I know. You're filming, right? Yeah, I'm doing a fun movie for Netflix And I got about a week left

And then home Good And then home, and I can't wait I can't wait to be home I'm sure. There's no place like home. No, I know, I know. Let's start where you are now, okay?

And then we can go back. But, you know, your patience. Let's talk about your patience. Let's talk about what you do. Let's talk about what you specialize in because I'm sure you could probably help me. So give us a little rundown of sort of your situation, the kind of people that you're helping. And then also, didn't you come to this a little later? in life? Yeah, yeah. I didn't go back to school until I was 39 and got my master's and then

got my doctorate. I definitely came to this later in life. I'm a late bloomer for sure. And I love what I do though. So I just love it. I help women every single day recognize, heal and escape from trauma bonds, which is a toxic relationship. I get women now thanks to Zoom, I get women from all over the world. Yeah. So trauma bond, you know, explain for those who might not know what that is, you know, explain that. Yeah, so a trauma bond is any toxic, dysfunctional connection between two emotionally attached people, right? It could be between parents and child, it could be between boss and employee, it could be between friends, but the way I write about it is between mothers. But what makes it pathological is that one of the partners wants power and control over the other

partner. And do you find that it usually goes, man wants the power over the woman? I think it would be 75, 25. I think that there's definitely women that want power over their men, you know, and do it. And so in that relationship, usually that person wants control so they will, though this is the way I say it. The pathological partner, right, will lie, harm, exploit, and betray their lover to get their needs met for money, power, pleasure, and status. It's that simple. Okay. Whoa. It's simple, but there's all kinds of different caveats and avenues as to how

they might achieve that. Correct. Correct. Correct. So what happens in the beginning of a trauma bond is that this pathological person, I call them Romeo, they come in and they're charming and kind and warm and generous and like so adoring. And so that you fall in love because you're like, oh my God, I'm at a unicorn. This person is awesome. They meet all my needs. They're obsessed with me. But then over time, the mask falls and you get to meet Dirty John. Now, do you think that this is a premeditated, calculated situation? Or does it just happen? Are you with a narcissist who might have good intentions at first, but they can't get away from probably and potentially their own trauma, which has led them to be who they are? Yeah, I think it can go both ways. I think that

sometimes they do unconsciously, like, believe that they believe they want to love, but they're just so self-centered. But I think a lot of the times it really is calculated and premeditated, and I'll tell you why, because they can act totally differently when they want. And then the second they're alone with their lover, that's when they get controlling and cruel and they lie right to their face, but then they have to go out to dinner and they're just back to their Romeo selves. Yeah, and it seems to be, it seems like these people may lack empathy.

Yes. Right. Yeah. Yeah. They definitely lack empathy. They definitely lack remorse and compassion. Because think about it. If you're just a tool on their tool belt, they can't see you as a person and have empathy.

yeah it's so interesting because you know obviously narcissism there's degrees of it I'm sure sometimes I question whether I have some sort of narcissism I mean do we all have a little bit of it is there sort of some self-preservation in being a narcissist yeah like we all I mean healthy narcissism is okay I mean healthy self-esteem are essential esteem based upon like your actual accomplishments or what you are really capable of. But like a narcissist is much more entitled and grandiose and they're exploitative. So you can like you can be selfish sometimes. That's normal.

Like sometimes, you know, self-care is selfish. Like it's okay selfish. But this is like an extreme, this is a pattern of it continually where you're exploiting people, using people and harming people to get your needs met. Mm-hmm. Gosh. And then the bond comes from the flip side of that, right? So it's the, like you, you know, I think, I think you talked about how in your past

and sort of what led you down the path that you were on right now is your relationship and how it would be complete, total and utter devastating dog shit. And then you would come into your apartment and there would be a billion roses. That's right. That's right. And that's what creates the bond is that intermittent reinforcement where, you know, extreme acts of generosity and kindness, but mixed with extreme cruelty. And that's what creates the bond, which seems counterintuitive, but it actually does because you're always hoping for Romeo and that kindness and generosity to come back. So you tolerate, as you say, the dog shit times. Do you think that, you know, there is a certain kind of a person who is more susceptible to sort of being taken advantage of that way, you know, who has, they're more susceptible to having that trauma bond, you know?

Yeah. I have two thoughts about that. So, first of all, everybody can be con by a con artist. Yeah. Right. If a con artist is really good and they want to manipulate you, they're going to do it. They're going to read you. They're going to figure out ways to manipulate you. But if you are a very trusting person like I was, long and naive, and I just thought everybody was like me, I was like, oh, I could trust this person. They have the same intentions that I have. And so if you are a very

trusting person and you are agreeable and loyal and tolerance and you fall in love with a pathological person you're in trouble and how long did you actually stay in it for eight years eight years and at what point did you know because you are a you know a highly intellectual person you are most likely very evolved um i'm i'm maybe maybe more so now than then but was there a moment like wait a minute like this is so fucked i am i i i shouldn't be here i i'm smarter than but I can't, I can't. Oh, there were so many moments like that. I mean, that's the whole thing that you feel in the relationship.

You're like, what am I doing? I'm going again myself here to stay connected to this person in this relationship. And my ex's drug addiction was so insane that I was really always focused on that and trying to figure out ways for him to be sober, which didn't work very well. but it really started for me right in the beginning because when I first met him he was like if you don't marry me if you're not going to tell me we're going to marry me I'm not going to date you and I was like what I'm 23 I don't want to get married like the goalpost while he's moving and then if you don't if you're not going to have kids and I'm not going to marry you and I was

like what's happening but I just was rationalized and I was like oh my god he just loves me so much. What did your parents say about all this? Oh, my God. My mother took me to lunch and she was British. And she was like, you know, you don't have to do this. And I was like, my mom, I love him so much. And she just was like, okay.

Yeah. And what about your dad? I don't know what your relationship with your parents. My dad was a gambling. I mean, there's a gambling addict. So he was excited because you knew he'd have access to a lot of money. So he was like, go for it, go for it. Not to be too analytical because I've been in therapy for fucking 24 years.

I've been to the Hoffman process. Like I am. Oh, yeah. So you've done it. Yeah, I have. And I continue to try to do it, although I should probably get back into therapy. It's funny because I was in the car ride to work today. And I'm thinking, man, you know, it's been a minute since I've been in therapy.

And I'm an advocate for it, meaning not just when you are, you know, feeling, bad about yourself or you have something you need to get through. It's, there's, it's more of just sort of a, a checkup that's, that one should do if they have the means every week. Why not? And I'm like, man, why have I, you know, why am I not in therapy right now? You know, why am I not doing this? Um, yeah, so gambler. That's right. Probably some sort of a hustler, if you're a gambler. I'm, I like to gamble, you know, I have my vices. I consider myself a lowercase, A, addict, and I don't even, in many different things, you know. Yes, yes, yes, I like that.

So I can kind of understand that idea. Is there a part of that, you know, that attraction, essentially, like, this is my father and this is what I want? Yeah, I think that, you know, my dad wasn't that much in my life. He was like, I work on, real Disneyland dad. Like, literally came and took me to Disney, and then I didn't see him that often. Of course, in retrospect, when you think about it, the stock market is just legal gambling. yeah right so there is that risk taking living on the edge to experience to it and for me you know my was

i grew up with a mother who was in the 70s reading young and Freud and like studying biology so we were always talking about our feelings and my family was very psychological and i go in a really calm peaceful household so when i first met my ex-husband and he's like raging at me and So angry. I'm like, what that? I'm like, what's happening? I really didn't know what to do. Now, I am from Brooklyn, so I fight back. But I was no match for him. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But what was the allure, I guess? You know what I mean? Was it the money and the fun and the things? Oh, for sure. Yeah. I mean, I was modeling in New York City and the 80s, the 90s. Yeah. Oh, my gosh.

Okay. And he was, listen, I was 22. I was 23. He was 28. we didn't have a big age difference I'm from Brooklyn he's from Queens he's charming he's handsome he's very bright and it was easy to fall in love with him but then as the

Romeo mask fell and I got to see this other side of him that's what happens in the trauma bottom I'm like what the hell is happening wait where's the guy I fell in love with and I had no point of reference for the way he behaved not that many people would have to see the movie

right right of course You know, it's pretty out of control. And I think, and I put, what happened is I put myself right into therapy at 23. Oh, wow. I can't handle this life sign. I've lived in a 10,000 square foot house before and had help. And then I couldn't manage him. So I believe therapy saved my life.

Yeah. And that's why I became a therapist. I'm Jorge Ramos. And I'm Paola Ramos. Together we're launching the moment. a new podcast about what it means to live through a time as uncertain as this one. We sit down with politicians. I would be the first immigrant mayor in generations,

but 40% of New Yorkers were born outside of this country. Artists and activists, I mean, do you ever feel demoralized? I might personally lose hope. This individual might lose the faith, but there's an institution that doesn't lose faith. And that's what I believe in. To bring you death and analysis from a unique Latino person. perspective. There's not a single day that Paola and I don't call or text each other, sharing

news and thoughts about what's happening in the country. This new podcast will be a way to make that ongoing intergenerational conversation public. Listen to The Moment with Jorge Ramos and Paola Ramos as part of the MyCultura podcast network on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole. Paul Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence.

That's Sierra Teller Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Remember when you used to have Science Week at school?

Well, if you loved that, how would you feel about a full psychology month? This September at the Psychology of your 20s, we're breaking down the interesting ways psychology applies to real life, like how our pets actually change our brain chemistry, the psychology of office politics, whether happiness is even a real emotion, and my favorite episode, why do we all secretly crave external validation? It's so interesting to me that we are so quick to believe others' judgments of us and not our own. I found a study that said, not being liked actually creates similar levels of pain as physical pain. Like, no wonder we care so much. So the secret is, if you want to be okay with not being liked, you have to know why your brain craves it in the first place. Learn more about the psychology of external validation, everyday life. And of course, your 20s, this September.

Listen to the psychology of your 20s on the IHeart radio app. podcast or whatever you get your podcast. Hey guys, it's Stephanie Beatriz. I'm Melissa Fumero, and this is More Better. We are jumping right in and ready to hear from you. Your thoughts, your questions, your feelings about socks with sandals. And we're ready to share some possibly questionable advice and hot takes. God, that sucks so hard, though.

I'm so sorry. Can you out petty them? Can you match their pettiness for funsies? Yeah. We had so much fun last season, laughing, crying. Talking to some new and old friends. Remember when we were in that scene where you guys were just supposed to hug

and I was standing. Oh, yeah. And I was like, can I also hug them? I'm like, this f*** has no friends. And this time around, we are, say it, Melissa. Should I? Say it. Getting a little more better.

Oh, finally. It's all the dressing room talk you loved in season one. All the things. Because aren't we all trying to get a little more better? Listen to more better on the IHartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When did that mask fall? You know, I mean, how long was it, how long was that beautiful mask on before I started to melt off?

I'm really only on for six months. Oh, shit. Yeah, because six months later we got engaged and six months later we got married. So now I'm in it. Wow. Yeah. And that's why trauma bonds often can be. They're like fast and furious and super intense. Was there ever, were there moments where you're like, I'm fucking out of here. Oh, yeah. Like when he ripped the phone out of the wall, I wouldn't, I didn't want to have kids right away.

Yeah, but then just like a typical trauma bonds, you know, I laugh about this. We'd have a fight and then there'd be a horse in my driveway. Mm-hmm. Make up with me. And I'd be like, okay. I guess. we can work this out and you know and being raised by a single mother in brooklyn you know we didn't have a lot of money and so then to come into all this money of course that was alluring and fun yeah so that was a that was a big but there was a lot of strings with that yeah yeah yeah yeah and then of course the infidelity starts and everything starts and then you're just it seems like you just get wrapped up in this tornado.

Yeah. And that funnel is just spinning you around even though you can get an arm out and you're trying to, you know, sort of crawl your way out of this cyclone. It's near impossible. It's just spinning too fast. And the thing with him, too, is that, you know, in the movie they depict, you know, that he was, that I was very jealous and he was cheating on me, which I'm sure he was cheating on me. But the interesting part is we never had a fight about a woman. really yeah but he wrote why is that

like that because I never knew oh he wrote the book like that and made the movie like that but so that's just so interesting we really thought about the drugs all the time yeah and did you find yourself because you seem like a pretty grounded compassionate person did you find yourself

having compassion for this man as well so much right I mean I would assume that part of the trauma bomb is the one who is experiencing that trauma is also experiencing at the same time real genuine compassion for this person who's out of control. So they're almost praying on, you know,

your softness. Completely, completely. I had so much empathy for him and that's exactly what they do. He's weaponizing my empathy. Right? Because, of course, I felt scared for him. You know, when you go to dinner,

with your husband and all of a sudden you get yourself, you go to dinner and you don't see him pop 10 quailudes, and then you sit down to dinner and he's like, oh, how's a second? You know, what happens? And you have to make a bread pillow for his face because. Oh, my God. Right? Yeah. And it's just like, who would want to do that to themselves? Yeah.

Yeah. And you never got caught up in that world. No, I would take one. Yeah. I just, I don't know, I've never had that crazy desire to escape that myself that much. You know, I could have like a balanced sense of fun for my pennies. Yeah. But no.

And when was that moment where you sort of found the strength to just be like, I'm out? Once he got, once he got dinged? Well, what happened was that he was, the Coke turned in, I mean, the Clayloots turned into Coke. and I say he was cooking crack in my country kitchen and I was little babies upstairs and I'm like, okay, this is done. This is done. And I said to him,

I'm not going to sit here and want you to kill yourself like all your friends do. So you have to go to rehab or I'm leaving you. And that's crazy. Do all my clothing and jewelry into the fireplace and let them on fire and it was like, you're not leaving and I'm not getting sober and you're not going to tell me what's due.

And I just went to my closet and said, God, give me the strength to do this. I did. You did. Yeah, and I did. And that's where the movie, you see where he gets violent with me. Yeah. It's because I confronted him about that. And you see when he drives my daughter.

And so that was that moment. But I actually jumped in the car and had my house, I put the garage store down so everybody was fine. And then he did get sober. He did. He did. He went, yeah, it was, we almost. all got killed but he did get sober and then he came back but emotionally i was done you were yeah and he got arrested yeah it's like okay here your ankle bracelet now is my freedom yeah

because the power imbalance shifted yeah exactly interesting right right you took the throne essentially yeah yeah i he just couldn't have power over me anymore so like I'm done I'm out was that just so liberating you have no idea yeah I mean you could take a big deep breath it feels like yeah I always I did a post about this with Tom Cruise in risky business when he's on the couch dancing in his parents leave mm-hmm yeah yeah that's how I felt and how old were your kids when you actually they were three and five okay so they were little so there's not a ton of recollection no no i mean you know my kids have a great relationship with their dad my son's yeah great my daughter's a therapist

amazing yeah they they have a great relationship with their dad and they're close they went to the premiere of the movie yeah you know i would never uh get keep my kids yeah as long as i know that they're safe and he's sober and he's being a good dad yeah and at what point and then i want to get into sort of how this propelled you into what you do let's just do that now actually because then i'll go back to sort of your current relationship with your ex-husband which i'm assuming it's okay right at this point yeah um and i would assume right now that you would not change a fucking thing in your life because of where you are now and what it has given you and how many people you're actually helping yeah you know

I wish I could say I had like some big grand scheme that all this was going to happen. It should have been so obvious to me, but it really wasn't. And so I got a license and what was happening was that the movie came out. When I got my doctor, it was when the movie came out, I got my master's. No, I got my doctorate. Were you consulted on the movie? I was not consulted because he wrote a book first. So the only thing was that I got to meet Margo

And she wanted my accent And I took her to dinner And that was really it No, it's his story, his narrative He makes all the money Yeah, and that's okay That's fine, whatever But what percentage

If you're going to look at that movie And give a percentage of what's real And what's not real, what would you say? 90% is real Is it? Oh, great Oh, yeah Wow Yeah

Wow What about the famous Leo scene when he's crawling to the car? That's real. Holy shit. That's real. I mean, I wasn't there because I was waiting at the house and then the car came back, crashed and I didn't know because they put it up to bed and then the police knocked on the door. And I was like, what's up? They're like, you got into an accident.

No, it's all real. Yeah. Okay. So you got certified and then you decided to become you're a therapist. Yeah. How did you find your clientele or did they find you? They think they kind. So that people start just to come to me because I'm a good therapist.

And then once I started to really focus on helping women, now it's just like wildfire. Because the very thing I worried about, I'm like, who the hell is going to want to come to me for therapy after they see this movie? Maniac. But then the opposite happens. Everybody was like, wait, I want to come to you. because you walk your talk like you went to this and you came out here yeah and so it all just worked out no i was about i was about to say that because again i've been in therapy for a million years now i don't know the backstory of all my therapists although there's only a couple

but but i haven't i have enough of one um because yes i am the patient but at some at some i'm always asking them about their lives and they're like oliver this is about you i'm like I don't care. What's your deal? Like, how do you handle these things? So I'm always digging. But most likely, most therapists who are, you know, giving you professional advice are doing so through school and not necessarily life experience.

You know, I would rather be with somebody who has lived it as well, especially when you are in your lane. You know, it's very specific. So if I'm going to go see someone, it's like, oh, I want to see this woman who has experienced everything that I am now, who has not just, you know, a degree, but actual street smarts. You know what I'm saying? So I'm sure that that's alluring, beyond alluring. And you probably have a way different perspective than a lot of other therapists.

Yeah. And, you know, a lot of times therapists will really ret traumatize women that are in abusive relationships. it's like, are you sure that's really happening? Maybe you're exaggerating. You're being overreactive. And so I believe them. I know it's real. And I know a lot of people can wear a mask of sanity and drive you crazy at home.

And so they know I believe them. I have so much empathy for them. And my husband goes, I know all your patients are beautiful. How do you know what they are? And I love them. You know, I genuinely love them. And they know that I'm on their side. Do you find sometimes with patients, though, that they are maybe projecting something that is sort of a false narrative or something that they have concocted and that you have to sort of take them out of that to get to the real shit?

You know, with this sort of scenario, not that much. And actually, they might not even come in and tell me everything because they're so embarrassed. in regular therapy for sure you know that that happens but in this therapy sometimes they're just so embarrassed for tolerating it and going back and you know it takes four to seven attempts

for a woman to leave this sort of relationship wow I'm Jorge Ramos and I'm Paula Ramos together we're launching The Moment a new podcast about what it means to live through a time as uncertain as this one. We sit down with politicians.

I would be the first immigrant mayor in generations, but 40% of New Yorkers were born outside of this country. Artists and activists, I mean, do you ever feel demoralized? I might personally lose hope. This individual might lose the faith, but there's an institution that doesn't lose faith. And that's what I believe in. To bring you death and analysis from a unique Latino perspective.

There's not a single day that Paola and I, don't call or text each other, sharing news and thoughts about what's happening in the country. This new podcast will be a way to make that ongoing intergenerational conversation public. Listen to The Moment with Jorge Ramos and Paola Ramos as part of the MyCultura podcast network on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we are aim to explore that culture.

It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a kind of two years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges,

we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sageburn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, it's Jemis Begg, host of the Psychology of your 20s. Remember when you used to have science, week at school? Well, if you loved that, how would you feel about a full psychology month? This September, the psychology of your 20s, we're breaking down the interesting ways psychology applies to real life, like how our pets actually change our brain chemistry, the psychology of office politics, whether happiness is even a real emotion, and my favorite episode, why do we all secretly crave external validation? It's so interesting to me that we are so quick to believe others' judgments of us and not our own, I found a study that said,

not being liked actually creates similar levels of pain as physical pain. Like, no wonder we care so much. So the secret is, if you want to be okay with not being liked, you have to know why your brain craves it in the first place. Learn more about the psychology of external validation, everyday life, and of course, your 20s, this September. Listen to the psychology of your 20s on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get, your podcasts.

Hey guys, it's Stephanie Beatriz and Melissa Fumero, and this is more better. We are jumping right in and ready to hear from you. Your thoughts, your questions, your feelings about socks with sandals. And we're ready to share some possibly questionable advice and hot takes. God, that sucks so hard though. I'm so sorry. Can you out petty them? Can you match their pettiness for funsies?

Yeah. We had so much fun last season, laughing, crying, talking to some new and old friends. Remember when we were in that scene where you guys were just supposed to hug and I was standing. Oh, yeah. And I was like, can I also hug them? I'm like, this f*** has no friends.

This time around, we are, say it, Melissa. Should I? Say it. Getting a little more better. Oh, finally. It's all the dressing room talks you've loved in season one. All the things.

Because aren't we all trying to get a little more better? Listen to More Better on the I Heart Reading app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Is part of this kind of therapy going back into their lives and understanding why they are this way? Or is it more focused on the current situation? Yeah. More focus on the current. I say we are in the emotional emergency room doing emotional triage work because they're almost all in crisis. They're in fear. they have kids, they got divorce attorneys, they got crazy stuff, they're getting stocked,

their phones are getting, I mean, there's just all sort of crazy stuff. So sometimes if we've, once we've gotten through the crisis, we might go back, of course, you know, but usually it's real like, okay, how do. Yeah, yeah, that's interesting because you do, again, you have to deal with the situations at hand. Yes. And I can only speak from just sort of standard therapy or cognitive behavioral therapy anyway. Yeah. And, but then once you dig deeper, you understand sort of why you were even in this situation.

Right. Right. Because I'm assuming, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, that not all women or some men are susceptible to these things. There are, you know, some are more than others. Some are more than others. More than others. And I break it down in my book, like why certain personality traits lead you. but what I say is that anybody and everybody can really be fooled by a con artist

now it's not in my age but no right you always say yeah exactly that's a good point actually you know like life experience of course yeah yeah when when you're when you're 22 and you're you're getting you're preyed upon you're way more susceptible than if you're in you're 50 right exactly exactly so I think age has a bit to do with it too and also like how evolved is the person are they self-aware have they been interested in psychology if not yeah and what was your relationship what was your first relationship like after that oh god it's so much fun i was dating everybody oh you were oh good so you had a great time i was like 32 and a ball i dated michael bolton like so many people

And then somebody said to me, hey, I have this guy, I want you going to blind date with. And I said, oh, my God, I've never gone on a blind date. I said, I'll go out with anybody once. How bad could it be? And now I'll paste my husband a 25th business. That's awesome. But when you were starting to date again, were you purposefully trying to just keep it, you know, pretty surface? Because you're like, yeah.

Totally. Was there PTSD involved? Was there that kind of, you know, so. So how were you able to sort of get through that to then have a healthy 25-year relationship? Yeah, well, like, you know, you mentioned how you went to like the Hoffman Institute. After I left my ex, I went to a place called the Karen Foundation, and they have a program that called Breakthrough, which is like a five-day program for people who want to learn how to set boundaries, learn how to say no, want to go back to their family of origin, learn about themselves.

So I did that because I was like, there's no. knowing hell, I want to go through that again. I'm terrified to go through that again. So I checked myself in there. So that, between all the years of therapy and that, I felt like, okay, I think I can trust myself. Mm-hmm. You know. That's interesting.

It's funny you say that. You said trust yourself, not trust someone else, right? Right. Because that's really what it's about. Exactly. 100%. Yeah. Because, I mean, at the end of the day, hopefully we all find trust.

people in our lives, but we have no control over what that other individual does. That's it. And there's something liberating about that. If you can really get down to that feeling of, well, I can't control you. I can't control what you're going to fucking do. And if I'm going to sort of be all up in my head about what you might do, I'm only causing myself pain that hasn't even happened yet, you know? I mean, I've been married for 18 years together for 23 or 24.

Oh, congrats. Yeah, thank you. We've been through our shit. There's no doubt about it. I mean, big time stuff, you know. And with my wife, and she's had to sort of, in her mind, sort of go through these scenarios and situations where she has to let it all go because nothing is certain. nothing is certain so let's just exist today and make the best of the day and not ruminate and catastrophes yes you know because that's only causes harm so well said so well said right

because the scariest things live in our mind right but when we could be present focused in the here and now and just say to us like oh I'm safe this is good right now I'm going to take it yeah Yeah. So run like hell. Is that your, is that your first book? Oh, it's my first and maybe my plane. Oh, really? You don't want to do another one. Oh, I mean, of course I'm the only like idiot that wrote a book before AI, right? Like finished in the AI. But, yeah, it was so hard because you're writing about hard stuff.

I take four clinical, I take four couples that are trauma bonded and then I leave all their stories throughout all the clinical material to make life. Oh, cool. Yeah, so it was really hard. Honestly, I don't even know who wrote it. I read. I'm like, I wrote this. But I'm so glad I did it because it's helping so many people. I think that's a great way to do it because it's, and I haven't read it yet, but it seems like there's a narrative aspect to it rather than just sort of a dry sort of book on psychology or therapy.

Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And so what happened is that, you know, I sit in my mind. office and I hear all these insane stories and narratives and experiences. So I just wove them into all different characters, put them names, and let them come to life all different ages so different people can relate to it. And then, like you say, it's a narrative and then people can really see themselves in the stories. Yeah, exactly. There's a

relatability there for sure. Yes, yes. So you talked about, you just sort of raised over it, but just the sort of the kinds of people who might be more susceptible or less susceptible. Is that actually categorized or there? Yeah. Yeah. So in 2019, I read a great book called

Women Who Love Psychopans. There was great research in there and there is, I don't know if you've ever taken this test but I can send it to you. It's the five factor model of personality. Test, openness to experience, conscientiousness,

extroversion, agreeableness, and neuroticism. But give it to all my patients. And the research showed that women that scored very high in agreeableness and conscientiousness were perfect prey. The great reason that you said those good qualities get weaponized. Guess who scores very high in both. Conscientiousness too. Yeah, conscientiousness like meaning that's how I got my PhD because I'm organized and diligent

and I'm driven. and I'm like, I'm going to get it done. Great, but not when you're in a toxic relationship. Yeah. You're like, I'm going to stay. I'm going to figure it out. I'm going to make this work. Yeah.

And it seems like most women are aware that they are in this. They are not unaware of it. Yeah. Right? Yeah. They're aware of it. And I started a trauma bond recovery community. And it's really inexpensive because I really want to democratize.

like giving women access to these resources and they're aware of it and they're crying because they want to go back knowing they shouldn't go back but still longing for this person it's a real mind bend

yeah it's so interesting it just sort of warps your own psychology it warps your own values you know or what you thought you know I would I'll never stay in something like this. Three years later, like, oh, my God.

Oh, what am I doing? I can't get out. Right. Mm-hmm. Women come to me after 20, 30, 47 years. 47 years. And they finally got out, yeah. Oh.

It's a jail sentence. It's worse. No, I know. But then it's like, now what? Holy shit. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm some younger people.

come two years. Yeah, sure. You know, but yeah. Is abuse, is physical abuse always part of this trauma bonding? No, it's not. It's not. It's usually coercion, which is like pressuring somebody to do what they don't want to do.

So it's manipulation, gaslighting, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, lying right to somebody's face, financial abuse. So in early 1970s, physical abuse, came a crime, right? So then people got smarter, I guess. Yeah, yeah. Just got smarter, yeah. And I know that you work primarily with only with women, but, you know, because I'm a man, I wonder, you know, how that role, how those roles can be flipped and reversed, what kind of man it would take to stay in something that toxic to where he is experiencing that trauma bond.

That's right. Have you messed around with that or looked at that? Oh, sure, yeah. And I get so many direct messages from MENT too that resonate with what I write. And again, they're highly empathetic people that are very trusting and don't think there's evil in the world and want to love. And I think for men, it could even be harder because it might be even more shame, you know. But, yeah, it happens to MENT too.

I wonder if, I wonder if, and I don't even know this or not, but I was just thinking like, you know, just how the empowerment of women, feminism, how women now are taking control, you know, they've found their centers and their power. Have we seen a decline in this or is it sort of remained steady? You know, it's, I think it's COVID, everything got accelerated, exacerbated. Okay, so you saw a spike. It was a rise because of course. Right, because people are just forced to be together, right? So we know that there was a rise in domestic violence incidences due to COVID. So you would think that it would be declining, and I think it is to a point, but. It's just still so prevalent.

You know, it's still so prevalent because it's not about the woman being empowered, right? She stays, she doesn't stay as long. But it's not the pathological partner. And they don't care whether we're empowered or not. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, so our empowerment isn't necessarily changing their mindset and their desire to have mind control. Yeah.

Did your ex-husband ever apologize to you? no not really no in fact no well that was one of my last strong moments was after he had that whole scene ensued where i told him to get sober and he got violent we were at sushi one night and i never forget it and i said you know all that stuff that happened between us was really painful and horrible and he was like it wasn't that bad oh and you know what i didn't know the word callousness. I never know. I was young and I bet something inside me closed and I was like, that's it. It was a seminal moment for me.

Yeah. Wow. What about later on though? Well, what about now? You know, I mean, do you guys have a, you guys have a relationship. I'm sure that's what we do. We do. You know, later on.

Not that you needed it because it feels like you've done your own shit. You know what I mean? Like I don't need an apology from my dad who wasn't there. and we have reconnected, you know, and things are great. And we've talked it out. I don't need him to say that he's so sorry because I understand it. And I've done the work and it's not something that's going to make me whole in any way. So not that you need it, but still the idea that your ex-husband wouldn't look inside, especially after sobriety and be like, holy fuck, I was a fucking nightmare.

And I'm so sorry I put you through this. He has written it in letters. Got it. Yeah. But I don't know that we have like some deep in-depth conversation about it. But he definitely has written it in letters. And I just chose, you know, and one thing I can say about Jordan and I, we put our kids first. You know, we're like we're going to, you know, I moved after I left him, I moved to California.

So I was living in New York and then I moved to California with my current husband lived there. And Gordon came out two years later To be with his kids He lived in Manhattan Beach too Ironically we both live in Florida So we follow each other around the country I guess but No we made a conscious decision

To be to parent together Yeah that's great Yeah and that's great And there was never contentious Between your new husband and Jordan No they Oh my God they get along so good When I first met my car

husband he said you know i think i'm going to take jordan to breakfast i was like what i'm like don't do that don't do that and he said i just want you to know who i am because i'm going to be around your children yeah ever since then they've just respected each other beautiful yeah he definitely likes john more than me right now since i started posting about him all the time oh is he ever like is he ever like he's like dad come on babe like what the fuck he's like you don't hear him She can't do that. I was like, tell your daddy, wrote a book. He made a movie.

I can make a three-minute TikTok. Yeah. Good for you. Yeah. So I think he's like, he's okay with it now. Well, it's all a beautiful story. At the end, I mean, it's healthy. You know, I'm glad to hear that everything is good.

The kids are fucking good. You know, you've been through what you've been through. It's created this incredible movement for you. And I'm sure you've helped a ton of women. And what's next? just to continue on this path? Do you have anything coming up that's... Yeah, just to continue on this path.

And like I said, I started this recovery community online. I wrote an online course for my book that's in the community. What's next is, first of all, just to enjoy my grandkids because they're so... Yeah, great. And just to reach more people. Yeah. You know, democratize what I do through the course in community and reach more people. I love that.

I love that because, you know, again, being in therapy, the truth. of it is now you know there are these apps and better help and you know these things that are coming out that that are allowing people who don't have a ton of money to actually seek help the problem with fucking therapies it's so expensive and there are so many people suffering not just women sort of who are in these in these trauma bonding situations but all across the board will never be able to afford the help that they need to get them better I know I know so that's why I made my community and course totally

you know very accessible much to my husband but he's never charging it up I'm like because I really want to help people yeah and and it's great because for 1499 you can join the community oh amazing at 2999 you can get the

course so it's is there a website or how does it just go to Dr. Ney N-A-E dot com okay everything there and I have so many free resources as assessments. Amazing.

Because this is, I guess, what I was meant to do. Yeah. That's so great. Well, I appreciate you coming on and talking. Thank you so much. Oh, so glad we got to do this. I know. Do you have a podcast or no?

I don't. Okay. Maybe that's next. I know there's a, I know there's 10 billion of them, but like maybe that's next. Yeah, no. I think I'm good. I just want to be different people's and getting to meet, you know, wonderful people like you so thank you so i appreciate that thank you all right take care take care see you i will i will i will

i will bye bye uh cool cool cool cool cool cool cool doing good things doing good things i feel like i want to rewatch the movie now you know now that i like i've spoken to her 90% of it is on point i haven't seen in a while either um all right i don't feel like doing any more talking so I'm going to leave and yeah everyone just love me I just need everyone to love me all right peace

you're having to love me hi it's honey German and I'm back with season two of my podcast Grazias come again we got you when it comes to the latest in music and entertainment with interviews with some of your favorite Latin artists and celebrities

you didn't have to audition no I didn't audition I haven't audition in like over 25 years oh wow That's a real G-talk right there. Oh, yeah. We'll talk about all that's viral and trending with a little bit of cheesement and a whole lot of laughs.

And, of course, the great bevras you've come to expect. Listen to the new season of Dresses Come Again on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Your entire identity has been fabricated. Your beloved brother goes missing without a trace. You discover the depths of your mother's illness. I'm Danny Shapiro.

these are just a few of the powerful stories I'll be mining on our upcoming 12th season of Family Secrets. We continue to be moved and inspired by our guests and their courageously told stories. Listen to Family Secrets Season 12 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's important that we just reassure people that they're not alone and there is help out there. The Good Stuff Podcast Season 2 takes a deep look into One Tribe Foundation, a non-profit fighting suicide in the veteran community. September is National Suicide Prevention Month, so join host Jacob and Ashley Schick

as they bring you to the front lines of One Tribe's mission. One Tribe saved my life twice. Welcome to Season 2 of the Good Stuff. Listen to the Good Stuff podcast on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Do we really need another podcast with a condescending finance brof trying to tell us

how to spend our own money? No, thank you. Instead, check out Brown Ambition. Each week, I, your host, Mandy Money, gives you real talk, real advice with a heavy dose of I-feel uses, like on Fridays when I take your questions for the BAQA. Whether you're trying to invest for your future, navigate a toxic workplace, I got you. Listen to Brown Ambition on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast.