Sibling Revelry with Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson - Revel In It: The Anxious Truth

Episode Date: May 2, 2024

Oliver is joined by author, host, and Anxiety Specialist Drew Linsalata for a deep dive into the awful effects of anxiety. From panic attacks, to antidepressants, to withdrawal symptoms, Drew talks about the lowest lows of anxiety disorder.But REMAIN CALM, because this episode offers ways to tame your tension, manage your emotions, and push back on panic!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an IHeart podcast. September is a great time to travel, especially because it's my birthday in September, especially internationally. Because in the past, we've stayed in some pretty awesome Airbnbs in Europe. Did we've one in France, we've one in Greece,

we've actually won in Italy a couple of years ago. Anyway, it just made our trip feel extra special. So if you're heading out this month, consider hosting your home on Airbnb. With the co-host feature, you can hire someone local to help manage everything. Find a co-host at Airbnb.ca slash host.

Betrayal Weekly is back for season two with brand new stories. The detective comes driving up fast and just like screeches right in the parking lot. I swear I'm not crazy, but I think he poisoned me. I feel trapped. My breathing changes. I realize, wow, like he is not a mentor. He's pretty much a monster. But these aren't just stories of destruction.

They're stories of survival. I'm going to tell my story. and I'm going to hold my head up. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's start with a quick puzzle. The answer is Ken Jennings' appearance on The Puzzler with A.J. Jacobs. The question is, what is the most entertaining listening experience in podcast land? Jeopardy Truthers believe in...

I guess they would be conspiracy theorists. That's right. They give you the answers and you still blew it. The Puzzler. Listen on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Kate Hudson. And my name is Oliver Hudson. We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationship.

And what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling ravelry. No, no. Sibling reverie. Don't do that with your mouth. Sibling revelry. That's good. Oliver Rutledge Hudson here, back on sibling revelry.

Yeah, I'm alone. um do i feel sad yeah me a little sad i miss my partner in crime but you know what it is it is what it is and i am i'll take over you know it's what i do but this fear and sadness and this anxiety um is a perfect segue into my guest Drew Linsalata. This is someone who I found on Instagram. And if you've listened to this podcast, you know that I have suffered through anxiety and some depression.

And I have dealt with it in my own ways. Feeling extremely alone in it in my 20s. Never afraid to talk about it, though. As I've gotten older, realizing that, especially nowadays everyone fucking suffers from some sort of an anxiety um i'm medicated and i'm on lexapro because of it uh all that stuff if you listen to the show you know that anyway i found i didn't find my my son found um drew because he was going through his own anxiety which i'm going to talk about i won't get into it now but he's the one wilder is the one who

said, Dad, you should see this on Instagram. And I just thought that he's so spot on with this stuff. And it's so incredibly relatable. And it just hit home for me. And I wanted to talk to him. So I'm very excited to pour my heart out and to really get into the depths of it. And I can't wait to hear about sort of his own journey. Because obviously this guy must be fucking anxious as shit.

to create an Instagram page about it. Anyway, let's bring them on. My man, Drew, open up that door, please. What on, man? What's going on? Very happy to be talking to you. I know we've been trying to do this for a minute now. And I know you've got your Instagram page called The Anxious Truth and a podcast, correct?

Correct. You know, I didn't discover you. My son did. My son is now 16, but this was a few. few years back. And, you know, he was going through something. And of course, I knew what it was because I have my own history with anxiety, starting my 20s, probably starting well before that, but it struck me hard in my 20s. And then throughout my life. So I knew what was happening. You know, he would say he would tell me, you know, I don't feel real. This doesn't feel real.

which is that sort of disassociation, you know, kind of vibe. And then he got chest stuff. He felt like he couldn't breathe. He would go on a bike ride and think that he was going to sort of die and his heart. And I was like, I know what this is, you know. And so I kept him home from school for weeks because he just couldn't go to school. And I had him write in his journal and I had him, you know, meditate and, you know, I worked with him. and, you know, whatever made him feel good,

but I knew what, I knew what was going on. One day he comes to me and he goes, Dad, like, look at this. I think you might like it. And it was your feed on Instagram. Sure. So he discovered you. And I started flipping through him like, man,

this dude is so spot on with the true feelings of anxiety. And you use it in a way that is not so serious. Yes, it's serious, but you have fun with it, you know, and I think that's smart. I'm well-versed in my feelings, and I know how to get out of them now. But so I thank my son for finding you, because you've honestly helped me just feeling like I'm not alone, even though you know you're not alone, you know? Yeah, that's right. And so to start, just give me an idea of where this came from, how fucking anxious were you that you wanted to start a career out of it. I was pretty fucking anxious.

All right. I see where this is going. I'm good with that. So, yeah, it came from, you know, many years of my life, 25 plus years on and off, where I suffered in a big way with multiple anxiety disorders and things like OCD and clinical depression. And, you know, it sucks. I was pretty anxious. I was frozen in fear in my own bathroom, afraid to leave the house, couldn't be home alone. I used to do really lovely things like not be the first person to open the orange juice in the house.

You know, probably poisoned. So we'll let someone else that I love find out for me. Like, come on, brain, really? So, yeah, I've done all the things. I've been there. The depression thing where like nothing means anything anymore and the world has no color and you just want to lay in bed and, you know, care anymore. Like, I've been through all of those things. And, you know, I've been through different iterations of that over many years.

And the genesis of the whole podcast and books and becoming a therapist thing was when I, the third time around, like, okay, I kind of know what to do here because I always have been a bit of a nerd when it comes to like behaviorism and learning theory and cognition. So I knew what the thing to do was, but it just took me a really long time to actually do it. And I just met a bunch of friends like in the early days of YouTube who were going through the same thing. We would exchange a little YouTube videos together. There was about 10 or 12 people, and that built a little tiny community.

And then when I got better, I just felt like I should probably sort of pay this forward, I guess. I don't know. You all help them. Let me like pay it forward into the internet or something. So I bought a $4 app on my crappy like first gen iPhone, talk to nobody in a podcast that I knew nobody was listening to. And like, here I am.

That it turned into this. And this is your life now. I mean, this is your business. Yeah. So from the mid 90, I mean, my undergraduate training is an architecture. And then from the like mid 90s all the way through. Until recently, I was an internet guy, like data centers and networks and stuff like that. And, yeah, finally was just, this is ridiculous.

Why am I still caring if anybody's email works or how fast your website is? This is clearly what I should be doing. Did you say you were a therapist? Yeah, well, I'm right now finishing my training. So I'm, you know, working. Yeah, I just, you know, finally. And it's such a strange progression, too, because for so many years, I started the podcast and we had like all kinds of online forums and Facebook or just helping people out.

You know, it was nothing formal. And it got bigger and bigger. And people would say, you know, you should write a book. Eh, what the hell? I'm going to write a book. Why do I have to write a book? Then I wrote a couple of books. And then everybody would say, why are you not a, you should be a therapist?

I don't need to be a therapist. Listen to people when they fucking talk, man. Like, people know stuff. So I went back to school for my grad training a couple of years ago and I'm finishing up now. Dude, that's an amazing. It's amazing. I would say that if I wasn't in the entertainment business, I would want to be a therapist. I mean, I love talking about my own feelings.

I love hearing other people's issues. And, you know, I mean, the human condition to me is so, I mean, it just, it's incredible that we're all made of the same things and can feel so differently about the world. Oh, yeah. And so going back, you know, when did you experience your first sort of bout with this? And, you know, give us sort of a bit of a timeline on how this happened, how you recognize. and how you recognized what it was how you got through and how you got through it.

And then how you manage every day. Because correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't just go away. You know what I mean? Meaning like there is always for me personally. Right. I know how to deal with it now. Right.

I have the tools, you know. And I'm on medication, by the way. Right. But it feels like it, I don't know, it feels like it will, never be completely gone and out of my system. Yeah, we could definitely talk about that. The, you know, for me, it all started. I was 19. I was home for spring break from, from college. And I was hanging out in my house that I grew up in. Like, everything could have been any better.

And I had the first panic attack of my life. I had no idea what the hell was going on. I literally, the first sensation, so when your son said, it feels not real, that was my first, boom, all of a sudden, it just, It just hit me and everything wasn't real. I'd never felt that before. And I legit, man, like I legit interpreted that as, well, it's been a pretty good 19 years. I guess this is how I go out. I thought for sure, this is what it feels like when you die. What the hell did I know?

So that was super scary. I had a panic attack that first night, did not know what the hell it was. And then instantaneously became afraid to have it happen again because it's a nasty experience to have, right? So the next morning, I was still so super shaking. and I was shaky and I was really worried that it was going to happen again. So sure enough, it happened again and again and again and again. And so I was kind of a textbook example of somebody who has a panic attack, which most adults

will have at least one or two in their life in the West. But I was one of those lucky people for whom it turned quickly into a textbook case of an anxiety disorder. That's where you become, I'm anxious because I'm anxious, which is not intuitive for a lot of people. We can get into that if you want because the conventional mental health wisdom is often turned on its head in the case of anxiety disorders. Yeah, and I developed that.

I got super afraid to go out and be alone. It was just within a few months, the wheels fell off on me. What were your symptoms? Oh, because anxiety, you know, well, yeah. Yeah, the depersonalization to de-realization, dissociative state, right? So we could be PDR. My heart would pound constantly. I would feel it and, you know, the pulse in your ear.

I didn't have really stomach issues, which most people do have. but that's what I had sort of dizzy. Yeah, a lot of people have to run right for the bathroom. I get that's really common. I was lucky I didn't have that. But the dizziness sort of off balance feeling, then I would fix it by like deep breathing. And then I would accidentally hyperventilate.

So I'd get pins and needles and my hands would lock and my face would go numb and I would freak out anymore. It was just a mess. And that was how old were you? Was this when you were 19? That was 19. Yeah, I was 19. And I was like bulletproof. to yeah before that day yeah never got nervous i was one of those like really annoying high achieving

guys that never studied and still was the top of the class and blah blah blah never got nervous about anything and then the wheels do the roof just caved in in the span of a few months were you a drinker at all or no i was not attributing it to but after that no i'm not attributing it to but after did you try to maybe like get a little buzz to see how that no that's a very common experience but a lot of people to do that i just didn't do that for some reason i can't i'm not claim any high ground on that it just wasn't something that I turned to. But of course, you start running the doctors. That was the first thing.

Something's clearly wrong with me. And, you know, I was told by my GP at the time, like, oh, you have, like, free-floating anxiety. He gave me an antihistamine, which this will calm me down. Like, now, if I take a Benadryl, if I took it right now in about five minutes, this interview was over. Yeah, yeah, you're gone. Yeah.

But back then, he gave me an antihistamine and, like, take this when you feel anxious. And it was, like, bullets bouncing off a Superman, like an antihist panic attacks. It didn't work. And it was a rough, rough experience. What helped me that first time was I was interning at a big defense contractor here on Long Island and the nurse, the company nurse. This is like old school. They had a company nurse like in the building.

Who does that now, right? I remember I would, you know, she saw how nervous I was. She was so nice to me and she would talk to me about it. And she said, oh, I know a psychologist locally, go check him out. So I did. And he handed me a book by a woman named Claire Week. Dr. Claire Week, she was an Australian physician who she passed many, many years ago, but she was the first person to sort of bring these things to the general public back in the 50s and 60s and 70s.

And I read her book and twice in about 14 hours. And I'm like, this woman is clearly talking to me. I had a name for it. I knew what it was. And I kind of got better for like 10 years. And then the wheels fall off again. And then I medicated to get better. And that was good because it fixed my depression or got me out of depression.

Then it caused all kinds of problems. And I had to come off that medication finally, like years after that. And that was when I did the sort of exposure-based cognitive behavioral recovery to get, finally get passed it once and forth. The internet is something we make, not just something that happens to us. I'm Bridget Todd, host of the tech and culture podcast, their arno grows on the internet. Their arno grows on the internet is not just about tech. It's about culture and policy and art and expression and how we as humans exist and fit with one another. In our new season, I'm talking to people like Emile Dash, an OG entrepreneur and writer who refuses to be cynical about the internet.

I love tech. You know, I've been a nerd my whole life, but it does have to be for something. Like, it's not just for its own sake. It's a fascinating exploration about the power of the internet for both good and bad. They use WhatsApp to get the price of rice at the market that is often 12 hours away. They're not going to be like, we don't like the terms of service, therefore we're not trading rice this season. It's an inspiring story that focuses on people as the core building blocks of the internet. Platforms exist because of the regular people on them, and I think that's a real important story to keep repeating.

I created there are no girls on the internet because the future belongs to all of us. New episodes every Tuesday and Friday. Listen to there are no girls on the internet on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, what if I could promise you you never had to listen to a condescending, finance bro. Tell you how to manage your money again. Welcome to Brown Ambition. This is the hard part when you pay down those credit cards. If you haven't gotten to the bottom of why you were racking up credit or turning to credit cards, you may just recreate the same problem a year from now. When you do feel like you are bleeding from these high interest rates, I would start shopping for a debt

consolidation loan, starting with your local credit union, shopping around online, looking for some online lenders because they tend to have fewer fees and be more affordable. Listen, I am not not here to judge. It is so expensive in these streets. I 100% can see how in just a few months you can have this much credit card debt when it weighs on you. It's really easy to just like stick your head in the sand. It's nice and dark in the sand. Even if it's scary, it's not going to go away just because you're avoiding it. And in fact, it may get even worse. For more judgment-free money advice, listen to Brown Ambition on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. I had this like overwhelming sensation that I had to call it right then.

And I just hit call, said, you know, hey, I'm Jacob Schick. I'm the CEO of One Tribe Foundation. And I just wanted to call on and let her know there's a lot of people battling some of the very same things you're battling. And there is help out there. The Good Stuff podcast, Season 2, takes a deep look into One Tribe Foundation, a nonprofit fighting suicide in the veteran community. September is National Suicide Prevention Month. So join host Jacob and Ashley Schick as they bring you to the front lines of One Tribe's mission. I was married to a combat army veteran.

and he actually took his own life to suicide. One tribe saved my life twice. There's a lot of love that flows through this place and it's sincere. Now it's a personal mission. I don't have to go to any more funerals, you know. I got blown up on a React mission. I ended up having amputation below the knee of my right leg and a traumatic brain injury because I landed on my head.

Welcome to Season 2 of the Good Stuff. Listen to the Good Stuff podcast on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. So from 19, how long did it last before you were back, before you were feeling good again? That was over the summer I saw that psychologist. I'll never forget. I sat with him for about five or ten minutes. I told him what was what I was experiencing.

He was like, hang on. He left the room. He came back. He handed me the book. He said, read this. Call me if you need another appointment. It was amazing. He was so nice to me.

It was that. He said, read this book. Call me if you need to see me again. And I think I saw him once or twice. And I remember I saw him the second time just to say, I can't believe. she was she's writing about me and he explained how panic attacks were and that helped i just needed to know what it was so that first bout didn't last too long i'm gonna say spring break is what like april and i was yeah feeling pretty good by time we went back so september right yeah somewhere in that

neighborhood that was you know that was a tough six months but yeah knowing what yeah has helped me but get over it for the first time it's so funny because your your experience is not this similar to mine where I was going into a club with a friend and he was ahead of me and everything was great. I was in my early 20s. Everything, my life was seemingly fine, you know, I was trying to be an

actor. I mean, again, when you go back into the psychology of why these might be happening to you, because of course it's stemming from something, you know, and trying to be an actor, trying to live up to you know, my own expectations

but my parents are who They are, you know, they're famous actors and can I make this and my sister's famous and can I do it and am I good enough and, you know, self-esteem issues, all of these things. Of course, in the moment, I wasn't even knowing about that. But boom, it hit me like a fucking train, like a heart attack. At a nowhere, right? It comes from nowhere. And I went down to a knee and I was like, I'm going to die on the sidewalk in like Hollywood.

You know what I mean? And I reach up like, John, I try to call my friend, but he couldn't, he was already gone. And I came to, I was like, okay, Jesus, I go in. I have like a vodka. I'm trying to, like, settle down. I'm like, what the fuck was that? Yeah. And then, again, same thing.

It's this panic of having a panic attack. It's this is this going to happen to me again? Yeah. And that just led me down the rabbit hole. Now, for me, it was a lot of stomach stuff and disassociation, but I would throw up. Yeah. Like, I would go outside. And if I would go outside and try to get into the world, I would puke.

and so I would try to fight through it. I'd surf and be throwing up and like, I didn't want to stay home. But I did journaling and meditation and I eventually got through it. Same thing. Went to the doctors, did stress tests, did my heart, did everything.

Everything is fine. And, you know, eventually got through it through meditation and journal writing. And then I went on Calexa. Yeah. But then I had another bout. Then I had another bout, and then I've had three real big, big bouts. Yeah, me too.

I went through three of it, three times. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the second one, how did that play out for you? It was interesting because it always would come on when things were going great. So the second time, I was in the middle of the first dot-com boom, you know, when the internet's first being, I'd shifted away from design and construction. I'm like, I'm going to be an internet guy. I like to reinvent myself.

And so I did that. And I was partners in an internet company here on Long Island, and things were going really great at the time for us and it just started creeping back in. I started to notice I was getting very anxious and feeling the symptoms again and then I started having panic attacks. The thing is I didn't really learn what to do the first time. I just learned what it was and that helped me not be afraid and I got past it. The second time it hit, I didn't really know how to deal with it. And like just knowing what it was wasn't enough anymore. And then snowballed right away into like agoraphobias. Now here I own this business and I'm absent from the business because I cannot leave my house to go to

the business. It was really rough. And that's when I got really depressed. That was dangerous depression. And I got to the point where I was at Witt's end. And I remember my wife taking me to a doctor at the time. And he gave me the insulin speech, which many people with this problem have heard, because I was very stubborn about meds, just because I'm stubborn, not because meds are bad or wrong. And he said, if you were diabetic, you would take insulin, right? You have a chemical imbalance. And I was so desperate, I'm like, fine, give it to me. Sure enough, about 10 days into it, my depression lifted and I thought it was the greatest thing ever. And it was. It was a life lifesaver at that moment. But I'm like, okay, cool. I'm fixed because I stopped having panic

attacks and my depression was gone and I was pretty good. Except for me, my issue was the medication did help, but it also hurt because I didn't have panic attacks or depression, but I had nothing. I was super flat. I gained 100 pounds. Like no. A hundred pounds? Dude, I cannot even, if you saw pictures of me, you would like, is that, that's not the same guy. The 100 pounds heavy than I am now, I wasn't having panic attacks. It really nasty effects for me. I'm not, again, if it's working for people, I'm all for it. I support anything that's work for anybody and everybody has the right to make their choice.

For me, it turned out to be more problematic than anything else. My kids were born. My grandparents passed away. Did not shed a tear. Didn't feel anything. I was like a zombie. Oh, wow. Really bad.

So I knew that I, that wasn't working out so well when the kids were small. it came off, but I went through a horrific, like, antidepressant withdrawal period. Not everybody has that. Dude, I'm not trying to tell. You and I are like literally connected. I, crazy. I went through the same withdrawal experience where it was worse than my first one.

I had one. And then I had a small second one when I was doing the show called Nashville. I was away from my kids. And it just, it hit me. I was playing beach football and, like, had a fucking crazy. panic attack where I had to go to, I mean, it was nuts. And I sort of bawling crying. I was like, please, I cannot believe this is happening again. Oh, man, I feel that. I remember living in my bedroom literally in like ugly crying, some do something, somebody do something. It was a horrific, horrific feeling.

Yeah. It was worse than the panic attacks for me. Like that. Oh, yeah. That thing where the meds go away and you don't Oh my God. And your brain is adjusting in was where again, again, if you're listening to this, that doesn't necessarily happen to everybody it's really important for me to say that maybe a hundred percent 35 percent that people might have a problem like i had that was a rough year for me that would do six great months to get up back on my feet and a year i well i had i was weaning off and i thought i was doing it correctly and then it just took me to a place dude i mean this is like three or four years ago even four years ago maybe yeah four years ago it was just so debilitating i mean totally different it wasn't throwing up stuff. It was just like, oh God, it was just, it's hard to even explain. I mean,

complete disassociation. I was a mess and trying to be a dad going downhill and mountain biking with my kids. It was over summertime. I got to offer two jobs, you know, and I'm like, now I got to go to work in August. I'm like, I can't go to out live in Albuquerque. I can't do it. Like, I can barely come out of my room. But I was like, I need to support my family. I got to do this. So I had to go back on medication. because I just had to be even to try to support my family. And now I'm just on it, you know, but it was that withdrawal was so nuts. But yes, it's important to say that that doesn't happen.

It doesn't happen to everybody. I know a lot of people that maybe you're afraid to take the meds because you think that might happen to you. Or if you're on it, you want to get off like, I'm afraid because I'm going to have it. You might, but nobody knows. We really don't know who's going to have that and who's not. And I know there's all kinds of people peddling tests about. about metabolisms and what your genetics say, which one, yeah, we still don't really know. So, but it doesn't happen to most people.

I know plenty of people who just, they cold turkey them and they were fine, which is not what you did. So, yeah, that was a really, really rough experience. But that experience taught me so much about the difference between pain and suffering, as crazy as that's, I could not stop the pain, but I had to learn to adapt as best I could. I mean, I don't know how you would have possibly, like, I'm even freaking out just here and you're like moved to Albuquerque, really, in that state? No, I couldn't go to the store around the corner for me to get a gallon of milk.

Couldn't do it. Yeah. So no way, it was like going to happen. Oh, yeah. No, I know. I know. But that adjustment period is interesting because, you know, you do learn to live with the suffering of what it feels like. I remember learning that I had to wake up and say, I just going to have to do the best I can with this today, which wasn't very good.

But there were lessons in that experience. Oh, yeah. Yeah. and then eventually in that about you got through just I got through that finally and you know did you did you do any of the practice or anything was there meditation deep breathing journaling or anything like that or interesting because by the way it's already interrupted a cognitive behavioral therapy would change my shit like I have been in therapy for a while but but then I switched and found this person and it was CBT and I was like whoa this is real therapy it's a whole of an animal and it's

It was incredible and totally life-changing. I would say that I tried, I mean, anybody, you know, you were in that position, clearly. It's amazing that we share such a similar experience, right? But, you know, in that situation, you would try anything to get relief. So I would try to meditate to feel better. And it was just chemical. It was nothing I could do. There was no practice journaling did nothing.

It was just, this is the way I feel today. I can't help it. My brain is doing the best again. So, no, I can't say. But I did learn. And I did start to gain some ability that helped me later to say, well, I can't stop this. So I'm going to have to just do the best they can with what I have in this moment. I didn't recognize that I was learning that skill until I had to use it later.

But I did take that skill out of that experience if it matters. And my brain just kind of got its act together over the course of a year. But yeah, so I kind of got lucky. But then I had to deal with the actual problem that was still there because the meds don't. I mean, at least for me, they solved the problem. They just masked it. And yeah, and then I had to go through a couple of years of doing the whole exposure, learn to face the fear, you know, stop doing my rituals.

There was a lot of stuff going on. There's a lot. Right, because you had an OCD component to it as well. Yeah, a lot of people who have anxiety disorders, they all start to mush together. So it's like, oh, I have panic disorder. But it can also look like OCD, some social anxiety clicks. They all mush together after it. It's hard to separate.

Did you have to sort of look back into your life and discover where it came from? Here's where things get weird. So for people that are listening, especially people who are into sort of personal development and wellness, that sort of stuff, this is where people like me, who specialize in anxiety disorders sound weird.

Or you'll say, like, I doesn't know what he's talking about. Clearly, there was unhealed pain or trauma or something. Not always. In fact, the data overwhelmingly says that it might make you vulnerable to develop an anxiety disorder, but we have to stop automatically, saying that the way to fix it is to dig deep into some sort of pain or root cause. You may have that kind of work to do because we all have shit in our lives, right?

We all get a deal with our stuff. But really, I did it without ever looking backwards. Wow. Yeah. Now, one day, maybe I'm going to wake up and say, oh, shit, like, that's why it happened. And I'm going to have the deal possible. I don't know. But in an anxiety disorder, often the insistence that we have to do healing.

and trauma and deep introspection work makes things worse. That can be a harmful course of action for somebody who has panic disorder, agoraphobia, OCD, health anxiety, those sort of things. I know that sounds ridiculous to say because people will just automatically say, well, it's your feelings. You have to fix your feelings and your emotions and your hurt and your pain. Sure you do. That's part of being healthy as best you can, but that isn't how you treat that problem.

So where do you start? That's interesting because you're enlightening me. I mean, I think I kind of knew that you don't have to have deep trauma to have anxiety, but I would always assume that it's connected to something. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. And I guess the first knee-and-jerk reaction is, okay, let me get into therapy. You know what I mean? Because I'm feeling this way.

There's a reason for it. I don't know what it is. Let me find out. Yeah. But so if you're not going that route, you know, as someone who makes this his life, what would you sort of suggest? how do you get started to down to the path of sort of recovery? Yeah.

So here's the way we do that. First, we always acknowledge that those things might exist. Of course, where I'm not trying to say that like, oh, nobody has trauma, nobody has pain. We all do, right? We all have pain of some kind. But the anxiety disorder, that state is defined by why am I anxious? Because people think, well, if I could find why I'm anxious and panicking, it'll stop. No, not when the reason why you're panicking is because you panic.

So for people that develop anxiety disorders, the source of the anxiety and the fear is internal. It may have been all triggered by something. That's true. We could probably argue that like something triggered me the first time. He knows you were able to say, well, I was under a lot of stress. I was trying to make it in Hollywood, blah, blah, blah. Okay. And it boiled over and you start having panic attacks.

So the first thing we got to do is, well, why am I afraid? I'm afraid because I'm afraid. It's fear of fear. I'm anxious because I'm anxious. I panic because I panic. That's it. that's it boiled down once once you're in the cycle of insanity it it is that it is you are panicking because you might panic right so i let's fucking crazy it is yeah and it's not intuitive

because as a human being you might think if i could find the reason for the panic it will stop happening but the reason for the panic is the panic yeah and how about the moment how about the moment when you wake up in the morning and there's that small window of like, oh, my God, am I normal? Am I normal? Yeah. I think I'm normal. I think I'm normal. Oh, my God.

I'm not feeling normal. Oh, no, I'm not normal. Yes, dude. You know that. That is 100% right. That first, when you open your eyes and you're now conscious and it's just, it's like four and a half seconds of like. Yeah, you got a small window of like, oh, my God, I feel normal.

And then the train rolls into the station and you're screen. Yes, man. I get that. You really nailed that in a big way. I think, I like to use a fire analogy. So, like, imagine that your anxiety disorder or your chronic continuing anxiety, whether it's panic attacks or it becomes agoraphobia, afraid to leave the house, or maybe you have OCD, you're battling with a steady stream of intrusive or scary thoughts that you

don't want and they disturb you and they trigger you. Think of that as a fire. So now there's a fire burning. Something lit the fire. And you might have a fire on your right side and you could be holding a torch on your left hand. Like, here's the problem, right? So now I blow out, I put the torch out, but the fire is still burning.

So the torch made a fire that has to, you have to tend to that fire. You'll also want to put the torch out if you have one, of course. Putting out the match that lit the fire does not put the fire out. It's not intuitive. It makes no sense. And again, this is why even in the therapy world, many therapists don't specialize in anxiety disorders. I'm in arguments all the time with my colleagues over this.

Are you really? Oh, yeah, all the time because people who don't specialize in these things will often say like they call it they're weird we're like the engineers of the therapy well the mechanics of oh you're the exposures let's put your feelings into a computer and we'll tell you what to do it's not that but they joke on us it's called good natured and professional ribbing but most therapists will ascribe to the things that resonate with them which is you have to do pain work and shadow work and we have to dig and get to your feelings sure we do your feelings are really important but the problem in this state is that your feelings become everything even though those feelings

aren't necessarily connected to reality, indicative of reality, or making any kind of rational sense at all. So if I did have some of trauma or pain in my past, and maybe I did, but that doesn't explain why I was afraid of my own heartbeat. The internet is something we make, not just something that happens to us. I'm Bridget Todd, host of the tech and culture podcast, There Are No Girls on the Internet. There are no grows on the Internet is not just about tech. It's about culture and policy and art and expression, and how we as humans exist and fit with one another.

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trading rice this season. It's an inspiring story that focuses on people as the core building blocks of the internet. Platforms exist because of the regular people on them. And I think that's a real important story to keep repeating. I created there are no girls on the internet because the future belongs to all of us. New episodes every Tuesday and Friday. Listen to there are no girls on the internet on the Iheart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, sis, what if I could promise you you never had to listen to a condescending finance bro? Tell you how to manage your money again. Welcome to Brown and Vision. This is the hard part when you pay down those credit cards.

If you haven't gotten to the bottom of why you were racking up credit or turning to credit cards, you may just recreate the same problem a year from now. When you do feel like you are bleeding from these high interest rates, I would start shopping for a debt consolidation loan, starting with your local credit union, shopping around online, looking for some online lenders because they tend to have fewer fees and be more affordable. Listen, I am not here to judge. It is so expensive in these streets.

I 100% can see how in just a few months you can have this much credit card debt and it weighs on you. It's really easy to just like stick your head in the sand. It's nice and dark in the sand. Even if it's scary, it's not going to go away just because you're avoiding it. And in fact, it may get even worse.

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on the IHartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. so then how do you what are the first steps you know if you're if you once you diagnose it right self-diagnose or you know normally people will go to the doctor and get checked out and they're like okay I'm medically totally fine now we know that first step by the way that has to be right you got to do that it is it's medical meaning like go just make sure everything is good yeah make sure yeah yeah always if you walk into my therapy you're going to say have you been, have you been medically cleared? Have you been checked up by an MD? Because we want it.

We got to treat the whole person, right? Yeah. So now we're medically cleared. And now, okay, I can't, I can't get out of my house. I'm going to throw up every time I leave. I'm anxious about being anxious. You know, what are our first steps to sort of, you know, getting through this thing? Well, if it's not therapy, I'm not saying don't go to therapy. I'm just saying, if we're not going to go to therapy, you know, what are the steps? Okay. So the first thing that we would use even in therapy, which anybody can access. And now you talk about things like social media. This is a lovely thing about social media, right? It's good because we would start with what's called psychoeducation. First, if I'm your therapist, I'm going to explain what an anxiety disorder is.

I'm going to explain that you're now afraid of being afraid. It's fear or fear. Panic because you panic. And when you explain that to somebody often, it's like a light bulb moment like, oh my God, you're right. That's exactly right. I'm afraid of when I have the thought about stabbing my dog. I don't want to stab my dog, but I can't stop the thought. It triggers me. Yeah, you're afraid of the thought. You're not afraid of anything with the thought. So first, we, psychoeducation explains some of the stuff you and I are talking about right now. After psychoeducation, then this is where it turns left again for most people. I am all for your meditation practice and your journaling practice. Clearly, that's an important

part of wellness for you. And I would think it's a great, those are tools that a lot of people can use them too, right? But we have to start to turn somebody away from, I need a way to calm it down. I need to find techniques to calm myself down because if you are afraid of your internal experience of panic or anxiety or thoughts or emotions, if you immediately look for ways to squash them. So as soon as I start to get triggered, I have to tap my cheek. I have to get my lavender oil. I have to do this. I have to meditate. Are literally teaching your limbic system. Yeah, keep sounding the alarm. My own brain is now a danger. So please keep alerting me to my own thoughts. Keep it coming. Keep it coming. And then you get stuck on a treadmill of like,

I just try to manage my triggers and manage my symptoms. You can do it that way. Some people manage to manage it enough to be functional. But we have to start dismantling that ability, that knee-jerk reaction and say, well, even if you do panic or even if you have a scary thought about stabbing your dog, for instance, you can handle that distress. This is a big, big leap for a lot of people, but you can handle it and then you learn that you don't have to fear the internal state. Even if I panic, I'm okay. So most people would think, well, if you haven't panic attacks, you try to learn how to not panic. No, no.

You should probably try to learn how to get better at having a panic attack. Then if you're not afraid of it anymore, then there is no it anymore. So you might still be anxious. I'm a human being. I can be anxious some days. I'm just not afraid of the anxious state anymore. So there is no it. for there's nothing to come back. There's no relapse for me to matter. How do you be, how do you work on,

how do you not be afraid of it? You know, I mean, without experience, essentially. It's like you need the reps. Thank you. This was worth the price of admission right there. What Oliver just said, 100%. Only experience, because the part of your brain that controls these functions does not listen to words, memes, mantras, sayings, song lyrics, poetry, all lovely things that we all enjoy and enrich our lives, but that part of your brain does not understand, I am a warrior, this two shall pass, this two shall pass. It is okay. I am strong. I am light. It is not listening. It's like making a phone call with somebody that doesn't own a phone. It's not even ringing. They didn't even know your call. Yeah. So it only understands experience, behavior.

So the only way to learn that you don't have, you can't just decide to be not be afraid. So people like, I have to just not fear it. Well, you can, you can learn that you don't have to fear it. How do you do that? Experience. I stopped trying to save myself from myself. I wind up okay. I have no other conclusion to draw, then I don't have to fear this. It was a technique that saved me.

I just, it goes away if I leave it alone. Yeah. It's a big, it's a big ask. Don't get me wrong. People are like, what is he talking about?

How is that possible? Of course. I mean, I can even go there, you know, I mean, even when I'm on medication, I'll have my,

there's certain moments, you know, where you can go down a bit of a rabbit hole. And I'm like, well, I'm not going to die. I know I'm not going to die. I know I'm just maybe going through a little something right here.

But then, you know, you can you can even trick yourself to thinking, well, maybe this is, maybe this is the time that I, I am dying. You know what I mean? Like even someone who is a fucking salty veteran of anxiety, sometimes I'll be like, wait a minute. What if I actually am having a heart attack now? I feel you. Oh, man. I get that so much because I have the temerity to write books about this shit and like change my whole life to become a therapist, like that's how recovered I think I am. It takes a pretty

big set, right? All right. Even my brain, many years after that episode of my life is over, and I do not have an anxiety disorder, nor am I afraid of my anxiety. If I'm in a really anxious state, there is still a little part of my brain that will just like, you know, this could be a stroke. This is it, dude. I'm still going to be there, right? And I'm like, oh, shut up, man. But I've learned that in that moment, as a human being, you can't help but be startled and brace against that one moment. Yep. After that moment, I've done it enough for I'd say, well, I got to roll the dice here.

I'm going to have to just roll the dice. I'm like, all right. Yeah. I go, recovery from an anxiety disorder is the shortened amount of time between, oh, my God, which everybody has and, oh, well. Exactly. My time is just really short now. It used to be months.

That's great. But it sounds like you're doing the same thing. Yeah. Oh, for sure. Yeah. For sure. I mean, without a doubt. What about empathy? You know, I know empathy is a good word, you know, someone who can feel. But empathy can go off the rails, I think, too, when someone feels too much. You know, I think I feel like I teeter on that a little bit. Like I take in a lot of feelings, you know, like I don't know. I care about people's feelings. I, you know, do you think sensitivity plays into that? It does. That? Yeah. So personality traits that make you more introspective or where you are, we would call it neuroticism. That doesn't mean disease. It just means that you're inwardly focused and you put a lot of stock on your internal experience, like your feelings and your thoughts and your emotions. It does make you vulnerable. Because in situations like the one I'm describing or the one you and I have both lived, the way out is to stop obeying every thought and emotion you have. It will drag you up and down the block like bloody because it just keeps telling you to do stuff. be safe, but you're already safe. So it's, it's tough. If you're wired to honor and feel and

hug those emotions, every thought is sacred, you have an increased vulnerability of developing this kind of problem because it seems ridiculous to disobey your thoughts. What do you mean to my thoughts? They're very important. Not always. Yeah. Brains make beautiful. Yeah. Beautiful, beautiful stuff and they're super valuable for us. They can also make total shit. And we have to learn. Oh, God. Yeah. Well, that's, that's cognitive behavioral therapy, right? It's your thoughts. And it's catastrophizing. It's just creating, you know, these kind of scenarios, these false narratives that are just

completely causing you distress and pain, physical pain in your body. When that hasn't even happened yet. Yeah. You know what I mean? It hasn't even happened yet. Yeah, that's true. One of the funniest things online I ever saw was somebody posted, you know, anxiety is basically conspiracy theories about yourself, which is for that.

That killed me. I say, Yeah. The interesting thing about cognitive behavioral therapy is it is the most effective. Let's say, there's a big umbrella. CBT has a big umbrella now.

And it is the most effective treatment we have, bar not. It's not even a question. So that's a fact. That's not a question. But T in the old school was all about, well, we teach you that your thoughts are irrational.

And then you change your thoughts. And so we hear things change your thoughts, change your, choose your thoughts wisely. Like me that are more third wave oriented. say you don't get to choose your thoughts. You can always choose what to think. You can never choose what not to think.

So just knowing that your thought about the poison orange juice is irrational doesn't change shit because it's still a powerful physical response. So we lead with behavioral change informed by the education that tells you that your thoughts are irrational and you really are safe. The thought change and the emotion change follows behind. That's in the last 25 or 30 years. Early seasons, we change your thoughts, we change your life. No, no.

Yeah. We expose your thoughts. You change your behavior. You change your thoughts. Change your life. Right. And then there's the reframing sort of of those thoughts. Those sort of irrational thoughts, right?

But like one of the common things would be people that have anxiety disorders live by what if. Like you said, well, what if I am actually having a heart attack? Or what if I go to that birthday party and I panic and I make a scene? Well, now common sense approach would be, well, that's an irrational fear. What if you have a great time? Whereas I might say, well, you might have a panic attack, but even if you do, you'll be okay. That's much more valuable than saying, that's irrational.

You might have a great time. Maybe. Or maybe you won't. Yeah. But either way, you can be okay. Yeah. If I go and I throw up in front of them with the party, like, no one's going to really give a shit. And even if they do, sometimes unpleasant experiences.

Right. What can we do? Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's almost funny because it is just fear of exposure, of looking bad, of just being that person, you know, that everyone might talk about or causing that scene. The avoidance of internal experiences. I never, I don't want to feel bad. Oh, God, I, when I used to leave the house, which by the way, I wasn't the one to sit inside.

Like, I would just come. I would just fight through everything. Clearly. And, but I would, I would, as I'm walking down the street, I would look for places to throw up that no one would see me. I mean, literally, I'd be like, man, no, no, no. I mean, it was like the Terminator sort of scanning where to puke. You got the grid, like, only three people over there. I mean, it was crazy. I find that fascinating, man, because the range of responses people have are huge. Like, that's no joke, man. That's a lot of steel backbone in that. The Internet is something we make, not just something that happens to us.

I'm Bridget Todd. culture podcast, there are no grows on the internet. There are no grows on the internet is not just about tech. It's about culture and policy and art and expression and how we as humans exist and fit with one another. In our new season, I'm talking to people like Emil Dash, an OG entrepreneur and writer who refuses to be cynical about the internet. I love tech. You know, I've been a nerd my whole life, but it does have to be for something. Like, it's not just for its own sake. It's a fascinating exploration about the power of the internet for both good and bad. They use WhatsApp to get the price of rice at the market that is often 12 hours away. They're not going to be like, we don't

like the terms of service. Therefore, we're not trading rice this season. It's an inspiring story that focuses on people as the core building blocks of the internet. Platforms exist because of the regular people on them. And I think that's a real important story to keep repeating. I created there are no girls on the internet because the future belongs to all of us. New episodes every Tuesday and Friday. Listen to there are no girls on the internet on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. The Super Secret Festie Club podcast season four is here. And we're locked in.

That means more juicy chisement. Terrible love advice. Evil spells to cast on your ex. No, no, no, no. We're not doing that this season. Oh. Well, this season, we're leveling up. Each episode will feature a special bestie, and you're not going to want to miss it. Get in here. Today we have a very special guest with us.

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so what about your kids did you did you were you going through this when you're when you had kids or you were through it no when you when i was in the last phase there i was medicated when my kids were born so i was not participating it was not good so again my personal experience i'm not judging anybody else's but that was the reason why i stopped taking the meds you know i wrote about that in my first book which you could get for free i'll talk about that yeah but um it was an incident with my kids when they were like four and two years old. My four-year-old said something that I will take to my fucking grave. I'm like, okay, this isn't okay.

I have something has to change. I was at my doctor's the next day. I need to stop. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. So, but then I was going through all the crazy withdrawal when the kids were little and when I was doing all.

And how was that just trying to be a father and you know what I mean? Like, you just have to fight through it though, right? And the other alternative is to sit in bed, but. Yeah, couldn't do. that. Right. It felt like such, I don't know if you ever experienced this, but I really felt like the worst father ever. Like, not only was I failing on a daily basis because I was afraid to do like regular life shit that nobody thinks about, but I started to feel like a failure. That became a motivator for me. Like, no, no, no, I can't, we're not doing this. Mm-hmm. Along those lines of

people who might be listening who are sort of suffering with children and trying to sort of be a, you know, provide emotional, you know, support for their children or just be parents. How do you navigate that? I mean, first of all, you might feel like a failure, but I guess you're not a failure. You are going through what you're going through to try to be a, to try to get better, essentially. I mean, I can go by my own personal experience. I mean, my kids watched me get better. So in the end, yeah, and we've talked about it openly now that they're older.

They're, you know, they're young adults now. So we've talked about it openly. Clearly, I've written books about it. I tell the world my experience. I'm not hiding it. But they watched me get better. I think it can be tough if you feel like you can't get better. And my only coping strategy is extreme avoidance, whether it's staying in the house

or ritualizing my life very tightly to stay, keep from panicking and get too anxious. That could be tough because the kids can see that. But it's okay kids to see your struggle like because they're going to struggle too in life. Yeah, yeah. When Wilder was going through it, you know, I told him, I said, it was this summer, I think it was literally, I was only a, a summer removed from my third bout of this. And I said, did you know that that whole summer we had?

I was going through my own insane, intense anxiety. He didn't know. He didn't know, right? My kids. No, because I hit it very, very well. You know, I mean, I was upbeat and no, no, no. And then I mean, like, oh, my God. You know, but he didn't.

And I said, dude, I was really struggling, you know. He probably was surprised to hear that, I bet. Oh, yeah, he was. He was. And, you know, I just think that relate, just being able to relate to him that way and let him know that sort of I was feeling these things as well. Who knows if it helped them or not, but. Maybe. I mean, you know what?

You were able to understand that. Like, you normalized the experience for him. This doesn't mean I'm broken. I even have my dad had it, too. Grandma. Yeah. It's good to know. Have your kids, have your kids been through anything like that or have they suffered at all?

I'll tell you a really funny story, which this is so indicative of how parents, freak out. Like I'm going to give it to my kids or I'm a favorite teaching my kids to have panic disorder. So my youngest was in high school and the phone rings one day and it's her. She's at school and I'm like, I got to answer this. She's calling me from the high school. It's up. And, you know, as kids would do, she's a great student and I'll graduate at the top of the class, but she had not done her homework or whatever. She forgot the study. She forgot an assignment and she's standing outside her English class and she's freaking out because I forgot to finish the paper. Oh my God. And the pressure of the grades and getting into college.

you know that stuff right yeah yeah she had a panic attack she said i think i'm having a panic thing she's panting a little and in my mind i'm thinking okay first i got to coach you through it retire dude's gonna coach you through it and then we're gonna sit home and gonna teach you all about panic disorder she ended the panic attack i texted about 10 minutes later i'm like you okay she's like yeah i'm good thanks she never mentioned it again she did not need to talk about it ever again she is the typical western adult experience she had a panic attack yeah able to understand why it was externalized. So even the word anxiety, like, oh, I'm really anxious because like we're having money problems or maybe had to fight with my partner or the kids are driving me crazy. People know

I'm anxious because they don't internalize it. She never internalized it. It was a panic attack. I'm like, I think that's an important lesson, honestly. It's like if you have a panic attack, just let it be a panic attack and don't worry about having another one. I know that's tough easier said than done. It's such an adverse experience for so many people. Yeah. Right. One of the things that's tough about that, though, is in the culture we're in right now, especially online wellness, we're constantly being bombarded. Answering my question. Okay.

We're always being bombarded with messages that we should be able to hack our brains, hack our bodies, happiness, only vibrate positivity. And every negative experience could be avoided with boundaries, air quotes, fucking boundary. And, you know, and somehow there's a technique to always be happy or fix your negative experience. dude it's unbelievable we weren't allowed to have negative experiences yeah it's full of them so we better to deal with them right yeah a popular stand stuff no no but but an important one you know because everything is fucking you know like roses and rainbows like that that is not life choose happiness bro yeah yeah exactly and that's leading me to sort of my like you know we're getting to the end but just anxiety today it is in your opinion

Is it just labeled like ADHD? Because I'm sure I had it, but no one labeled it back in the day. Now everyone has ADHD. Or do you think we are actually a more anxious society? Because anxiety now is almost like a buzzword. I mean, everyone is anxious. And it's like, oh, yeah, I have anxiety. It's almost like a hot right now.

I don't disagree with you, right? So tread lightly here. But I don't disagree with you. Everyone is anxious because you know. what? Anxiety is a normal part of the human experience. It just is. Everybody's always experienced anxiety from time to time for various reasons. It's a good thing that we talk openly about those things now because we didn't used to talk about it openly, but we sometimes talk so openly about it that we start to misapply it or whisked it a little bit. So it's kind of difficult.

There's a big difference. I have anxiety. Okay. Well, why do you have anxiety? Well, my exams, coming. I don't know what the hell I'm going to do with my future. I don't know what I'm going to I'm lost. I don't know who I am. Okay, you're right. You got anxiety. But that's not a disorder. That's not a pathology. That's not a, it doesn't necessarily need to be fixed. You're working through your life like people do. The person who feels that they cannot have, stop having disturbing thoughts about having sex with a clergyman. And that's, that happens to people out of OCD. that's that's something that you do have to work on so in way we just overuse the words so much that I think they start to lose their meaning or their value sometimes so we have to be careful

yeah yeah but do you think that we are becoming a more anxious society generally because of technology because of comparison because of I'm not good enough yeah it's really hard to find some solid ground living in a place like we're in right now Everyone's a fucking megaphone and they're not afraid to scream into what we were not designed to hear that 24-7, which is not. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My God, it's just, it's just so interesting because it's evolutionary.

I mean, we are now evolving as a different kind of species than we would have out all of this. These things are so informative and I would just urge everyone to go check you out, Anxious Truth, the podcast. and the feed and the books and all of it and why don't you want it before I go why don't you tell your book what books you got um well I wrote I actually wrote three books the first one is called an anxiety story so if you really want to hear the gory details of what I lived that one I give away you're going to cite the anxious truth com you can get that just follow the links you can get a PDF or an MP3 is free then I wrote I wrote this book which is called the anxious truth this book you can't

oh good it's just not a video podcast but I wrote it is it is there's we we post you post some video, cool. So I wrote a book called The Anxious Truth that is geared for people who are dealing with anxiety disorder recovery. And then I wrote one called 7% slower, which is about using a trick of just slowing your ass down to avoid getting into that like frantic. I have to fix myself. So yeah. When you say slow yourself down briefly, what is what is that? What is that? Seven percent slower is this. I didn't know what sounds like the Dan Harris 10% happier thing. In fact, I'm like, I'm like, I'm going to come up for myself when I used to was doing exposure work. at my exposure therapy back when I was doing my recovery work, I would have to remind myself, slow down, slow down. I'm like, just go 7% slower. That's enough. I can't, you know, I can't measure. But it would remind me when I wanted to run

and rush through anxious situations. It would remind me, no, no, no, no, slow down, slow down. Love that. It's a really powerful trick. So it's that. That's important. Kind of a mindfulness of QT. So kids, like advice that you might have

when your children are going through something like this, you know, when there's a 10, 12, 13, 14, even 15, 16, because it can be so debilitating for the little ones, you know, they're the teenagers who don't know what the fuck it is. And, you know, again, this idea of appearance and looking normal and looking good and being cool and it can weigh on you without anxiety. Like, do you have any sort of advice on how to deal with your children who might be going through having a bouts of anxiety. Yeah, it's very similar to what I've been saying the whole time, but it's difficult. I'm a parent, you're a parent, you get this.

So when your kid is under duress and they're freaking out and they're clearly stressed and suffering, we want them to feel better. Like it's really hard to not want to fix your kid, of course. Yeah. The thing that could be kind of difficult, though, is when your kid is afraid, of their own thoughts and their own body and their own feelings and sensations, the best approach is to try to help them understand that because I totally understand that this is legit scary. Like, it's not just all in your head.

You know that was not in just all in your head, nor was it in your son's head. It was real legit physical sensations and fear. And I know that's really scary, but I also know that you're safe and I'm going to hang out here with you and while you work through this. And I know that what we want to do is try to teach them, this is how you calm down. This is how you ground. This is how you prevent. This is how you manage your triggers and stay away from triggers.

But that tends to perpetuate the problem because it says, yeah, you never let myself ever feel this. I have to prevent it. Whereas the most valuable, though difficult to teach lesson, is the one that says even that scary feeling is actually safe. So let's try and work through the other side of it. And it's going to be really good for you. then you won't be so afraid of it. Every time you do that, it'll get less scary.

I'm going to, and I know you can do it. I ain't going to let anything bad happen to you. That's what I would tell. Yeah, that's great, dude. Well, this has been so fun, man. I mean, I've been looking forward to this for a minute, and I appreciate all your insights, and I think you're doing good shit.

I mean, I love it. And I know that you said that, you know, earlier on, it was, you know, it's hard to make, it's hard to feel better when you're going, through your shit, meaning like there's not a lot that anyone can say to you that's going to make you feel better. That's right. You know, but I will say, and I'm not just blown smoke, but, you know, your, your Instagram

feed, it does. I mean, it really does because you can chuckle at a lot of these things where you're like, oh my God, that's me, you know. I do that. And there's such a, you know, when you don't feel like. you're alone, or if there is a meme or something that you put up there that touches you, you know, that makes you chuckle, it almost makes you smile and laugh because it's so spot on. You do, you do feel some sort of alleviation.

You are at ease a little bit more. Thank you. You know, I think that it does help. Anyway, thank you, brother. That was great. That was a long time coming. I wanted to talk to Drew for a minute. I know I've been just like pushing all of this stuff,

but it really is from someone who's been through the shit, you know, with my own anxiety, coming across his, you know, his Instagram feed was amazing. And immediately, I got to talk to this guy. Obviously, extremely insightful. I love everyone. I love you all for listening to me and just me.

Peace. Betrayal Weekly is back for season two with brand new stories. The detective comes driving up fast and just like screeches right in the parking lot. I swear I'm not crazy, but I think he poisoned me. I feel trapped. My breathing changes. I realize, wow, like he is not a mentor. He's pretty much a monster.

But these aren't just stories of destruction. There are stories of surveillance. survival. I'm going to tell my story, and I'm going to hold my head up. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman, host of the Psychology Podcast. Here's a clip from an upcoming conversation about how to be a better you. When you think about emotion regulation, you're not going to choose an adaptive strategy, which is more effortful to use, unless you think there's a good outcome. Avoidance is easier. Ignoring is easier. Denials is easier. Complex

problem solving takes effort. Listen to the psychology podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's important that we just reassure people that they're not alone and there is help out there. The Good Stuff podcast, season two, takes a deep look into One Tribe Foundation, a non-profit fighting suicide in the veteran community. September is National Suicide Prevention Month. So join host Jacob and Ashley Schick as they bring you to the front lines of One Tribe's mission. One Tribe saved my life twice. Welcome to Season 2 of the Good Stuff. Listen to the Good Stuff podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast.