Sibling Revelry with Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson - Sister Sister, and a Mister with Christine and Janelle

Episode Date: February 17, 2025

TLC's Sister Wives took 'Sibling Revelry' to a whole new level! Janelle Brown and Christine Woolley married the same man and took us along for the wild ride. Find out how they juggle raising six kids together, and why jealousy ultimately ended their Sister Wives arrangement!  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Hi, I'm Jennifer Lopez, and in the new season of the Over Comfort Podcast, I'm even more honest, more vulnerable, and more real than ever. Am I ready to enter this new part of my life? Like, am I ready to be in a relationship? Am I ready to have kids and to really just devote myself and my time? Join me for conversations about healing and growth, all from one of my favorite spaces, The Kitchen.

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That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other Native stories on the show, Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The internet is something we make, not just something that happens to us.

I'm Bridget Todd, host of the tech and culture podcast or no girls on the internet. In our new season, I'm talking to people like Aneal Dash, an OG entrepreneur and writer who refuses to be cynical about the internet. I love tech. You know, I've been a nerd my whole life, but it does have to be for something.

Like, it's not just for its own sake. It's an inspiring story that focuses on people as the core building blocks of the internet. Listen to There Are No Girls on the Internet on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, I'm Kate Hudson. And my name is Oliver Hudson. We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationship. And what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling.

No, no. Sibling reverie. Don't do that with your mouth. Sibling Reveory. That's good. Oliver Hudson. Yes.

How are you? I'm pretty good. I'm just a little bit sad. Oh, Oliver, why are you sad? Well... Because it's a little gloomy out today and there's fires in Malibu. Oh, that's okay, Oliver. You know, life is interesting.

The ups and the downs and sometimes shit will pass. I know, Oliver. So that's me talking to myself. It just reminded me of something I did in therapy. Oh, my God, it was fucking horrible. This is a while back dealing with, you know, daddy-ish. dealing with sort of, you know, whatever, not just daddy issues, whatever my childhood brought on, you know, that then affected my adult life and, you know, therapy is good for everyone, even if you're from the insanely fucked up to the, you know, the so-called normal or not normal. No one's normal. Everyone has their shit. Therapy's probably good for every human being on this planet. But trying to sort of break through something. my therapist made me do this exercise and I was reminded by it by me my little sort of talk to

myself that I just did I had to play my current self and then my younger self my six-year-old boy would then talk to my adult self and I would have to have this conversation with myself as Oliver in the present day and then Oliver as a six-year-old boy. Now, it gets better. I had to switch positions in the couch to talk to myself. So I'd sit on one end and be like,

hey, hey, little man, like, how you doing? And then move over to the other side of the couch, be like, hi, like, I'm okay. Like, how are you? And then move over, like, you look sad, little buddy. Like, what's going on? And then I switch over and I'd be like, you know, I just don't feel safe.

and I feel insecure and, you know, I just, I wish I had my parents around. And then I switch over and like, it's okay. I mean, it was extremely embarrassing, even though it was just myself and my therapist. When he said it to me, we're going to do this exercise. I'm like, no, no, man, like, come on. Like, what the fuck. And he made me do it, and it was awful. It was, it's still, I think that caused me, that experience caused me,

to seek out more therapy, actually, at the end of the day. You know, it was more, that exercise was more traumatizing than, you know, my parents splitting up. Anyway, I digress. The, I digress thing, the I digress thing, I think I use it right, but I never really know, like, I digress. It's not I digressed, meaning like, I digressed, but I digressed. but I digress.

Anyway, I'm in a ramble mode. Well, we have some fun guests in the waiting room right now and very excited to sort of get into the talking about psychology when we're talking about sort of religion, faith, number one. But then we're talking about sort of the psychology of what it feels like and why it feels better to basically, be one of in this situation I think three wives to one man um they are from the hit show sister wives and I think we've all probably caught a glimpse of it it's just such it's so fascinating it just speaks

to just humanity how we're all different we all feel different things we all love different things we all you know different things make us happy and it's the beauty of who we are we're not all one and the same. Let's get into it. I don't know if there's anything off limits. I don't know. We'll see. I'll probably put my foot in my mouth, but that's kind of the fun of listening to this goddamn show. Christine Brown and Janelle Brown, bring them in. Let's talk sister wives. Hello, Janelle. How are you? So, good. I'm with Maddie and Caleb in Greenville, so in North Carolina. Oh, wow. Because we actually have purchased some property.

and we are starting a farm next year. Amazing. I've been to Greenville a bunch of times, actually. Have you really? Yeah, that's so funny. I used to play in this golf tournament, the BMW golf tournament there, and I played at Thorne Blade, and I stayed in a little town there in Greenville. I loved it.

That's funny. Greenville's great. It's such a small town, but really anything that you want, it's cute. It's cute stuff. And Christine, where are you? In Lehigh, Utah, like at Salt Lake City, it's like, if you see the valley of Salt Lake City, we're like right over the mountain. And you should see the insane view I have from my back porch.

Mountains, it's gorgeous. It's absolutely beautiful here. Anything you want to do, you can do, and then within an hour from us. Yeah, the Salt Lake Area is amazing. Well, thank you guys for coming on. This is really fun. I, let's just get into it. You know what I mean?

Like, first of all, why are you guys in separate locations? This is all, you know, a new experience for me. So are you, where, why are you living in separate places, you know, where is everybody? Yeah, we lived in Flagstaff together. Okay. And right after I left Cody, I moved up to Utah. My kids are up there and I just wanted to be up there instead. And Flagstaff, I don't have a lot of, you know, I have good memories with my kids in

Flagstaff, but no, thanks. I don't want to ever say there ever again. So I moved to Salt Lake City, Utah and lived there for a couple, like for a couple years in that location until I met David, and then we moved in together in March. But I'm going to stay in Utah. I love it here. It feels like home. I finally feel like I'm home now. Yeah, great.

There's so many years where we spent wandering and traveling and moving, and I feel like this is home now. So it's really nice. With Code, you spent these years traveling. I only moved a lot. Like, I swear it was ever. few years who was i think just always trying to help our family be like get get better financially whatever and so i feel like we were always just moving or for whatever reasons you know i one time got mad and i'm like there's 13 people in this family and you only care about one and

think that was a while ago but yeah and so we're just moving a lot and then we moved we were in flagstaff for what three years before i left and then like yeah okay and then jeanelle what about what about you after coding my marriage dissolved i was in flagstaff for a while but then i really i was really kind of looking for a piece of property to kind of settle in on i've always wanted that dream right i've always wanted a little few acres and a little farm or whatever and so my daughter madison and her husband caleb were also interested in that so we started looking all over um the country because kids Caleb has a job that allows him to go different places.

But it turned out we found our little piece of heaven or whatever here in North Carolina, right? They're very close to them. So I'm here. And that's where I will plant my roots. So Christine was just here last weekend. We still have a lot of family connection and interaction. Our children are all very close. In fact, there is a group text that Christine and I are not a part of that they share all the news.

And I was like, Mom, it was in the text. I'm like, I'm not in that text. But anyway, so thank you so much for not putting me in that text, children. And I did tell them, I'm like, look, if you're going to try and plan something with Truly in the sibling chat, that's great. But can you actually have to tell me so I can plan. They had this whole trip plan to San to Las Vegas one time to go to a concert. And they asked if they could take Truly. And then that's last I heard of it.

And then suddenly they're like, Trulie's like, Mom, we're leaving tomorrow. Blah, blah, blah. I'm like, wait, what? And yeah, it was like right then and there. And we had to make sure she had everything. that she needed. I'm like, you guys have got it for me, you know, just on things like that. So how many kids, how many kids do you guys have? Do you know, how many kids do you have? No, I have six. Okay. Yeah, we both have six. But then also Mariah's child, Leo, Leon is there in the group town as well.

Okay. So, so the first, Mariah is. Leon, like, you don't even refer to the name anymore, really. Oh, okay. Leon is Mary's child. Got it. Okay. And so that name is a is the name we don't associate with them anymore. Got it. Got it. Okay. There's so much.

I'm trying to like, I'm trying to map it all out, right? I know. You're all good. So Mary has one child, and that's Leon. And Leon's on the group chat with mine and Janelle's kids. And Mary is not on the group chat. Not on the group chat. Like us.

Right. So Mary lives in Parowan. She had that, as far as I know. I don't really talk to Mary that much. So she lives in Parowan, as far as I know, in her Airbnb or something, like in there anyway. I guess I don't know exactly what they live. Okay, so six kids and six kids, and they're essentially, God, are they cousins? Siblings.

They consider themselves siblings. They're all brothers and sisters. So when we married Cody, I was the third wife. Right. And after I got married, that's when all the kids came. And so all the kids really were raised as siblings. So they refer to themselves as a sibling. They don't use the word half.

Yeah. To them, they're full siblings. Yeah, I mean, that's like essentially like me. I mean, my brother Wyatt is my half brother. But I mean, I don't say that he's my brother. I grew up with him. I mean, it's my. Yeah.

So the kids all they grew up together. And that was one goal that we really had when we put our family together was to have them be truly siblings to feel like they were all. And they all grew up together. like they're all intermixed age-wise and so they do they're very much siblings yeah okay yeah no I bet now working backwards just a little bit because usually you know you kind of start at the beginning but you know I'm a pretty fluid you know conversation guy so dissolving a marriage like how does that work is it pretty much standard practices even though there were three of you You know, or is there something that has to be done differently that we don't know about or I don't know about?

We had like spiritual marriage. So I wasn't leave. So mine is different from Janelle as far as our path goes and stuff. So we both were spiritually and Mary. So in our church, there was a religious feeling that we had. So once it was time for me to leave and, you know, you don't know you have to leave until you know you have to. Celine. And then at that point, I was like, okay, I've just got to go. And so for me, it was a spiritual journey as far as praying to God and making sure he was okay with me leaving and

that was going to be fine. It was going and traveling to North Carolina and talking to Maddie and saying, if I leave your dad, am I still going to have access to your children? And she's like, you're always going to be their OMA. I'm like, okay, that's good. So like all the grandkids are ours. Mine and Janelle's, they're all ours. And so it was talking to her and making sure she would be okay with it. And then I just told all of the adults that I was going to be, that I was leaving, Cody. And then I just decided, like, I kicked him out of my room, my bedroom. I just told him I didn't want him to be in my bed anymore. If he didn't really want to be in there. I didn't want him in there. And I only wanted someone in my bed that loved me.

That was at that time me. So I kicked him out and that's the day I consider my official divorce because you can't really have an official divorce. There's no paperwork. I'm Jorge Ramos. And I'm Paola Ramos. Together we're launching The Moment, a new podcast about what it means to live through a time as uncertain as this one. We sit down with politicians. I would be the first immigrant mayor in generations, but 40% of New Yorkers were born outside of this country.

Artists and activists, I mean, do you ever feel demoralized? I might personally lose hope. This individual might lose the faith, but there's an institution that doesn't lose faith. And that's what I believe in. To bring you depth and analysis from a unique Latino perspective. There's not a single day that Paola and I don't call or text each other, sharing news and thoughts about what's happening in the country.

This new podcast will be a way to make that ongoing intergenerational conversation public. Listen to The Moment with Jorge Ramos and Paola Ramos as part of the My Cultura podcast network on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hola, it's Honey German, and my podcast, Grasas Come Again, is back. This season, we're going even deeper into the world of music and entertainment, with and honest conversations with some of your favorite Latin artists and celebrities. You didn't have to audition? No, I didn't audition. I haven't audition in, like, over 25 years.

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But the whole pretending and cold, you know, it takes a toll on you. Listen to the new season of Grasasasas Come Again as part of My Cultura Podcast Network on the IHartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. In early 1988, federal agents raced to track down the gang they suspect of importing millions of dollars worth of heroin into New York from Asia. We had 30 agents ready to go with shotguns and rifles and you name it.

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and had the official release. Do you know what I mean? She actually did the official thing. I really haven't. My marriage is over. I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm not really interested in getting married again or even really dating at this stage. So I'm not even thinking about like, oh, what do I need to do?

Because I'm just like, I am over. I am done. I love my single life. And, you know, if that, if something presents itself. in the future, then I'll consider what I need to do, do you know what I mean? So, you know, something that was cool, Oliver, when I told everybody that I was leaving, Janelle called me and she's like, okay, you know, we've all known that you've been struggling with Cody for years and everything like that, but she came over and she's like, what does that

mean for us? You know, as far as sister-wise go, with our relationship, she's like, I've raised, we've raised kids together. So what does that mean? And I'm like, we're just going to continue doing what we're doing. We're just going to continue in the relationships that we have. close to Janelle. I wasn't close to Mary and Robin, so I wasn't going to stay close to them. But then Janelle and I went to Disneyland together. We took our youngest with us. She took Savannah. I took Trulie and the four of us went. And I think on that trip for me, I realized, oh, Janelle's still my sister wife. She's always going to be my sister wife, even though we're both not married to Cody. We're just going to be in each other's lives for the rest of our lives. We have

kids we've raised together. We have grandkids together. And we're just going to keep doing things and hanging out and I just got home a couple days ago from hanging out with her and we're just going to stay in each other's lives. It's a good thing I like David. It's a good thing I like your new husband. I'm really glad he works out really well. I'm glad he likes me too. You know what I'm going. We're going to go on trips together. We're going to keep traveling together. So, so then going backwards, going way, way, way back. I mean, obviously you guys were born into the religion that you're in, right? No, no. I was not. Oh, you were not. Okay. You were not. Okay. No. And what about you, Christine? Were you born in? I had two moms. My dad married my other mom when I was five.

Okay. I wore a burgundy dress. My mom, but my hair and curlers the night before. And I remember her wedding day really, really well. Okay. And then, Janelle, you were not born into it. No. So I grew up in the mainstream LBS church because they are separate. Okay. And it wasn't, I wasn't, I was probably in my, I was probably like 22, 23 when I finally really, finally really seriously considered the fundamentalist branch or the fundamentalist faith. And explain that a little bit. You know, I know that probably a lot of people have seen the show and followed your guy's story and understanding. I mean, to be fair, I haven't really. But it's just, it's interesting to me. And in my intro, you know, I did my own little old song and dance. But then I just talked about, you know, the human condition and how we're all different and how we all

need and want and experience different things and there are different things that make us happy, you know, until they don't. And then you move on to something else, you know. Now, when you are in a situation, whether it be what you guys are in or, you know, a job or whatever, where you're feeling like you want out and there's restrictions there, but you can't, that's one thing. But if it's all of free will, then shit, man, like do whatever the hell you want to do. You know what I'm saying? That's my, that's my personal feeling about just life in general. You know,

obviously, Christine, you grew up in this. This is what you've learned. It's what you've seen, you know. But just take me through the fundamentalist sort of ideas of what this is, of what polygamy is,

of what multiple wives are, of sister wives of all of it. Like what is the sort of, you know, gospel behind it? Sure. So we can both talk about that one. Janelle's,

um, good at numbers and everything in history, remembering all of that. But basically the beginning of the Mormon church, back when Joseph Smith was the founder of the Mormon church, or LDS church, really, one of the tenets of faith that he felt like he was inspired to live was plural marriage and lived plural marriage himself, which is plural marriages, is having more than one wife. And then, you know, that trickled down through the presidency and through the members. and it's just

if you look in like the scriptural references as far as living plural marriage goes it just talks about it so you know it's what you believe and will get you to the highest degree in the celestial kingdom which is you know heaven and it helps you be a better person it helps like rough off the round edges

and it's not something I believe in anymore at all I don't plan on living it again it's not it doesn't fit with me anymore but I have siblings who live it and they all thrive and they're doing really well. Some are doing well, some are not, but you know, just because life is life. And so it's just one of the tenets of the faith of the fundamentalist Mormon Church. LDS Church does not practice plural marriage at all. Okay, God.

So really truly, I mean, it really is simply like every faith has a way to enlightenment, right? Like, it's really, you have to get over yourself. A man has to expand his capacity. A woman has to learn her own value. I mean, there's, it's like, it's a pathway. It's a pathway to progression. So, I mean, that's not the only part of the faith. There's a lot of other parts of the faith.

But that is one of the, that's the biggest tenet that separates us from the mainstream LDS churches. We still practice. Or that church, I mean, I'm not really a member anymore, but that church practices. but that church practices plural marriage. Okay. And so, and Janelle, are you, are you out of it like Christine is? Yeah, I mean, I still, I still have very much. I still have a very close relationship with God.

I still have very prayerful. And I'm still a very religious person, but I am not in the faith anymore. No. I mean, I still actually hold most of the LBS beliefs, but I am not in the plural. I'm not in the fundamentalist faith. And what does it look like to sort of exit? that you just don't go anymore you don't go and you're not do you lose friends do you lose family members you know um being a being sort of a convert at a later age i really didn't know a lot of people

i still am very close to all of my family that practices still like i still a lot of cody's family actually i'm still very close to um you know so i i haven't really lost anybody and not really you know my favorite thing happens i was at costco the other day because that's where you meet up with everybody is Costco and there was a whole like a group met me so it was a man and he had two wives with him and then a couple of their kids and it was the entire range of emotion all of it you guys it was crazy so some of them were completely like christine there you are it's been forever and i miss you and la la and here's a hug and you know picking up right where you left off and other people were kind of like one of them was very uncomfortable.

And they're like, oh, what do we do with her? She's left now. Does that mean that we can, you know, how is that? Does she hate polygamy? Does she, is she not going to like me? Because she left and maybe she's bitter or maybe she's angry about her. She, you know, maybe she's left religion in general. And I don't know where I stand.

So everybody, it was like from the, and then one was physically uncomfortable. And I'm like, okay, it was, it was lovely. So you get all ranges of emotion with, you know, acceptance, not understanding, being absolute like, well, I think we're done, that kind of a thing, just because you are leaving. I was leaving something that I knew all of my life, but then I realized it just wasn't going to fit me anymore. I felt it was too controlling for me. And I told Cody, one of the great things that I really appreciate about Cody, like in the church,

you wear garments, like in the LBS thing. And I took mine off and I told Cody I wasn't going to wear them anymore. And he goes, well, how is your relationship with God? I said, it's fine. God doesn't hear if I wear them. I mean, for me, God doesn't care that I wear them. He goes, okay, that's fine then. He didn't care. He didn't raise it. He was like, it's your relationship with God. That's the most important thing. And that's what he always taught our kids. And I really appreciated that because it was a, it is what you do is you need to have your own personal relationships, you know, with God. You shouldn't have to have an ecclesiastical

authority. And so I really appreciated that. It even takes a while too. It's not like suddenly you're done. It was like a trickling away. And it was like gone away in pieces or certain things I just didn't believe in anymore. I couldn't make them fit into my paradigm of understanding the world. We met, after we met public, oh my gosh, we met the most amazing people and so many different walks of life and faiths. And I'm like, these people are amazing in their relationship with God. It's just as strong as mine. Yeah. But when did you start to realize that? you know what I mean like you like when yeah when I started questioning like my yeah yeah yeah because you know when you're even when in your 18 19 years old I mean

that's when sort of your brain is moving you're you're you're sort of stepping outside of what you've been what is learned you know and you start to sort of establish your own sort of thoughts and feelings and ideas you know our brain I don't think is fully developed until we're in our mid 20s you know from a just a biological standpoint you know it's so interesting because I actually chose the faith at 22, 23. For me, it was a very, it was a very logical choice for me. And I never really felt like plural marriage was very controlling. I actually felt very independent. I felt like I had a lot of freedom. And I think it really is about what you make of it, right? Whether you choose to embrace who you are and be strong in who you are and be independent

and live a life, or if you sit around kind of comparing or pining or whatever, you know, for You know, I don't know. Like, I just felt like it was very independent. Were you in the church, though, Janelle, like before you found at 22? Like, where were you, like, from zero to 22? So I was in the LDS church, but that is, my family practically disowned me when I joined the fundamentalist faith because, you know, that was not done. That was definitely not done.

And so they were very upset with me. So it isn't really something that's embraced in the LDS church, the mainstream LDS church. So, I mean, for me, it was a choice. I felt very called to live the life. And I found a lot of independence and freedom. What drew you to the fundamental side of things? I have always been someone who very much sought to do what God, what would bring me closer to God. And I really felt like that was what this was.

It was just, it was a devotion. It was a devotional thing for me. I'm Jorge Ramos. And I'm Paola Ramos. Together we're launching The Moment, a new podcast about what it means to live through a time, as uncertain as this one. We sit down with politicians. I would be the first immigrant mayor in generations, but 40% of New Yorkers were born outside of this country. Artists and activists, I mean, do you ever feel demoralized?

I might personally lose hope. This individual might lose the faith. But there's an institution. That doesn't lose faith. And that's what I believe in. To bring you depth and analysis from a unique Latino perspective. There's not a single day that Paola and I don't call or text each other, sharing news and thoughts about what's happening in the country.

This new podcast will be a way to make that ongoing intergenerational conversation public. Listen to The Moment with Jorge Ramos and Paola Ramos as part of the MyCultura podcast network on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hola, it's Honey German, and my podcast, Grasas Come Again, is back. This season, we're going even deeper into the world of music and entertainment, with raw and honest conversations with some of your favorite Latin artists and celebrities. You didn't have to audition?

No, I didn't audition. I haven't audition in, like, over 25 years. Oh, wow. That's a real G-talk right there. Oh, yeah. We've got some of the biggest actors, musicians, content creators, and culture shifters sharing their real story. of failure and success.

You were destined to be a start. We talk all about what's viral and trending with a little bit of chisement, a lot of laughs, and those amazing Vibras you've come to expect. And of course, we'll explore deeper topics dealing with identity, struggles, and all the issues affecting our Latin community. You feel like you get a little whitewash

because you have to do the code switching? I won't say whitewash because at the end of the day, you know, I'm me. Yeah? But the whole pretending and coat, you know, It takes a toll on you. Listen to the new season of Grasas Has Come Again as part of My Cultura Podcast Network on the IHartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

The Super Secret Bestie Club podcast season four is here. And we're locked in. That means more juicy chisement. Terrible love advice. Evil spells to cast on your ex. No, no, no, no. We're not doing that this season. Oh.

Well, this season, we're leveling up. Each episode will feature a special Bestie, and you're not going to want to miss it. Get in here! Today we have a very special guest with us. Our new super secret bestie is The Deva of the People. The Deva of the People. I'm just like Text Your Ex. My theory is that if you need to figure out that the stove is hot, go and touch it.

Go and figure it out for yourself. Okay. That's us. That's us. My name is Curley. And I'm Maya. In each episode, we'll talk about love, friendship, heartbreaks, men, and of course, our favorites. Secrets.

Listen to the Super Secret Bestie Club as a part of the Marco Tura podcast network available on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. In early 1988, federal agents raced to track down the gang they suspect of importing millions of dollars worth of heroin into New York from Asia. We had 30 agents ready to go with shotguns and rifles and you name it. But what they find, is not what they expected.

Basically, your stay-at-home moms were picking up these large amounts of heroin. They go, is this your daughter? I said yes. They go, oh, you may not see her for like 25 years. Caught between a federal investigation and the violent gang who recruited them, the women must decide who they're willing to protect

and who they dare to betray. Once I saw the gun, I tried to take his hand and I saw the flash of light. Listen to the Chinatown Sting on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or anywhere you get your podcasts. Now that you have sort of moved beyond that side of this,

not to say that you don't have maybe even a stronger relationship with God, like when you reflect back on the reasons you did join, and now you're an older, you know, woman who can reflect. Yeah. How do you speak to that younger person? Do you know, I'm actually really, really grateful. And this is one thing Christine and I have really talked about is we're so grateful for our experience. I personally am very grateful for the growth that I experienced, beginning to be very confident in who I was, knowing who I was, knowing my own strengths and not feeling like I had to always measure up against somebody else.

But then we also had this tremendous family experience. that I never would have had without a big plural family. So I'm really grateful for that, really, truly. And Christine and I both said, you know, we wouldn't go back and change anything because what we have now is really great. Of course. I mean, I think, you know, just forgetting about, forget about religion or anything, really. I mean, I've been asked that question, too, just interviews.

I'm very open about my life and the things that I've gone through and the anxieties that I've had and you know there's been infidelity in my relationships that has been you know dealt with through just internal just just sort of self expression self-realization I wouldn't change a thing actually I got dinged and not ding but it was picked up in the newspapers like Oliver Hudson wouldn't change a thing and da and I'm like well of course not because I'm happy with who I am now I am happy with sort of my philosophies on life and the things that I have gone through, the character building experiences, the pain, having to sort of navigate all of that. I don't know who I'd be without it.

So why would I change it? I think we're the sum of our parts, right? I feel like you always, like you become a richer person as you go through life experiences. And some of them are not so great, right? Some of them are not so pretty. But it does make it who are. Yeah. I mean, now, if I was a completely screwed up individual and on drugs and in a gutter somewhere, then maybe I would want to change something. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, right, right. You know, but I fought. I always fight. I'm always fighting. You always fighting, you know, who you are and your own psychology and educating yourself. And it's a forever process. You know what I'm saying? Which is the beauty of humanity. It's a constant progression. There was one time that I have to say when I was leaving.

And I was just so still frustrated. And so I remember just saying, I don't think I even like cligamy more, blah, blah, blah, to Janelle. And she's like, wait a minute, wait a minute. She's like, come on, you live in plural marriage is the reason why you can do so many things you can do. She's like, I'll never forget how you just did the whole irrigation system by yourself in Wyoming, you know, how you, you know, did all of these things. You did things all the time and you could just pick up and leave and you could go. And the independence that you learn and that you found is something that's who you. you are. And it's like I decided at that point, same as you're saying, like, you realize that this

is all the path and this is all the journey. And there's some memories that I make sure they stay special and they stay good days. And I never let anything like negative or anything like that just creep in. You just have a lot of, actually have so many good, wonderful memories with our family and where it's brought us. And with our kids being as tight as they are, I mean, it's absolutely often. Yeah. But actually, none of our children have embraced the faith. I mean, they are all doing their own thing that was going to be a later question but now that you're bringing into it like how about all the kids like where are they out with all this yeah we really did raise them to to really disperse and foremost have a good relationship with god and i think they all have

sort of found their path some are not even really big believers of god and that's okay we're all still we all have this foundational family and it doesn't really matter what everybody thinks or believes you know everybody is very different they're on a full spectrum i love that and i love it because we still get all together and we still have so much fun and we just we celebrate the things that are in common which are lots of things so well it seems like our biggest goal it was about getting a development with god but then it was also become a productive person productive for this and make sure you have a sense of purpose and you have a direction and so it was all that too like have a sense of purpose have some place that you're always moving towards you're always better in

yourself always looking at people like with a way to understand them you know it was lovely having four like so many different parents I think really helped our kids to kind of fine-tune because you have all those special conversations with each of the kids so they learn from all of us and all of our parenting status I mean I learned things from my other mom that were totally invaluable and I'm so grateful that she's always been in my life here's what's interesting though you know going down that path a little bit is that you know I have three kids you know I have one wife obviously You know, you have to be on the same page. There's a fundamental belief on how you want to raise your kids, but how you get to that place sometimes can be different. Very different.

And just in relationships and single relationships in general, it's the, don't you undermine me or, or, you know, like I told him no and now you're telling him, yes? I mean, there's so, there are so many sort of disconnects in parenting. I mean, imagine when you have a thousand parents, like, how do you, how do you, how do you, How do you deal with that where it's like, wait a minute, I do it this way and you might do it this way, but then he does it this way, but then she does it that way. I mean, it could be a web of insanity. Well, I think that we always sort of respected everybody, everybody had their biological children, right? And so it kind of had a culture in their little families.

But then there was a big general culture that we sort of just had to mesh our cultures, Christmas traditions, holiday traditions, the way that like do. do kids get to, like I remember one of the very early on, could the kids play in the cup in the kitchen? Yeah, we're messes. Okay. What kinds of messes and how do you fold? And do you care if they even fold anything, you know? But you know what the kids learn to is how to navigate parents? You know how your kids probably know who go to?

If they have a question and they want to ask a yes, they know who to go to. Oh, yeah. Our kids learn pretty quickly who to get yeses from. Oh, yeah. And like, if they want to go do the crazy Black Friday shopping, do not sign me up. Christine's where she's in the car waiting for them at 1 a.m. or. Heck yeah. With hot cocoa to keep us warm. Yeah, no, no, I mean, you know, my sister has three kids and I have three kids and, you know,

all the cousins are like best friends. Yeah. But, but she does it totally differently than I do. She looks at the way that I raise my kids and she's like, Jesus, man, you are too lenient. let them watch like horror movies at the age of three. I mean, you know, I curse in front of my kids. You know, I'll drink in front of my kids. I used to smoke. I got smoke. I'm going to be me in front of my children. I'm not going to hide anything. Now, can you do it? Can you say bad words? Am I an example to you right now? No, of course not. I'm not your role model yet. This is who I am.

I'm an adult. When you become an adult or when you get to be older, then you can make these choices. but I'm not going to sneak around. I mean, I think that's almost worse than them knowing out front. They're going to find it. They're going to see the booze. They're going to see the cigarettes. And for me to go outside, like, smoke a cigarette or whatever. And come in like, hey, and stink of cigarettes.

Well, it's a level of teaching them respect, right? There's a word of respect. Where my sister's like, what, you're crazy. I would name all that. So it's just different. You know, we'd just do it differently. I was definitely more pious, like, before. Oh, yeah.

My kids have some funny stories. Christine was very black and white. Very black. I believe that you should raise kids black and white. So for me, it was like hard out. PG-13 was when you're 13. And my kids benefited.

They really did benefit from that. And who knows? Some kids, I'm sure, look back and they're super bitter, but I have to tell you why, watch The Conjuring was truly just a couple days ago. And it was terrifying and awful.

It's one of the best horror. It's amazing. It's one of my favorites. We're a horror buff. Our family, I've seen every horror movie. Conjuring is one of my top five. I had no idea. No, I saw it in the airplane, mind you,

with the screen this big on the back of it. That might be less scary. It was so much less scary. Yeah, that was amazing. So I've come a long way because horror was certainly not allowed in my home and everything. So it's, you change too as an adult. Of course.

Of course. To teach your kids, too, is that change is okay. Yes, yes, yes. And to see the differences in personality. and stuff in the spectrum of adults, I think actually gave our kids a pretty good tool. They gave them a tool, some tools going into real life because you're going to meet all these different personalities.

Like I've had my kids have come home and had bosses that were very rigid and strict. And like they had, and Mary is very much, like she's very, she's very rigid, she's very strict. And so they had dealt with that. And they're like, oh, okay, I know how to do this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I love what you guys said, where it's like, look, we're going to, you know, show them a path that I was on that we believe in,

not was now currently with your relationship with God. And if you choose to, you know, follow it, great. If you don't believe in God, it's great. I love you. I mean, you do whatever you want to do. I mean, that's a beautiful way to sort of do it because I have a lot of friends. Well, not a lot, but a lot, two or three friends. who were raised in a extremely God-fearing place.

And it screwed them up at the end of the day. They've come out of it, but they had to go through a lot because they were essentially disowned sometimes if they didn't believe what your parents believed, you know? That's hard. That's sad to me. I like that our kids are so individual, and they've all chosen different things. And oh, my gosh, I've learned so many things from them.

And then it's just amazing that all the things that they've learned about life and the different people they've met and the walks of faith that they have. And, you know, I really feel blessed that we were able to set up our family like we did. That kind of just kind of fell into place. But we did have discussions about it back in Wyoming where we did decide, you know, do we want our kids to live plural marriage? It was like, you know, I think that we just want them to have a good relationship with God. And that was at the very, very beginning of all, even though we talked them, I don't know, try to teach them my example, I guess. and things like that, but it definitely, definitely changed. So I'm just grateful that they're just good people,

and they treat people with kindness. Are any of them wanting to follow in that sort of plural marriage path? No. No. No. No. That's death first. Do you think social media and sort of the connectivity of the world through technology now

has changed a little bit of that? I don't think it's technology. I don't think it's that we weren't in the faith anymore. We lived in Vegas. And for all of those years, instead of our kids, kids hanging out with other polygamous children, they hang out with kids that were everybody else, the whole open world. So I think because we exposed them and ourselves to more people that lived outside of, you know, whatever, the fundamentalist faith, that that's the reason why

that happened too. I think we just showed them a whole broader world. So for them, they just got to see a broader picture. But then also, we do believe that there should be a calling that you do feel to live in any religion, to be a part of any religion, and none of them have the calling to even be a member of the church we were previously in. Yeah, yeah. You know, one thing, I am glad, we do have a very much more open world, right? We do now, and we've definitely had a much bigger life. I feel like our children have for sure. You know, one reason that we originally went public was to sort of expand people's ideas of what formal marriage was. You know what I mean? Like we, there was, it was the train wrecks making the news, right? And we were looking at ourselves and

we're like, wow, this isn't really us anymore. I mean, like, this isn't really us. And so we really did it. It was very scary for us to go public because everybody was very afraid. Our community was very afraid that we would somehow out them and we would bring the law down on them or whatever. But I am really grateful that we've had that experience and we've been able to share with people. And granted, it's sort of a train wreck now, but hey, that's normal family life, right? That's normal family life.

Like you said yourself. relationships evolve and change and we're doing it obviously now in a very public forum and we're seeing all the nitty gritty and the mean things that you say to each other when a relationship is ending or whatever so. Oh my gosh. Like we're real people right and I think that's what we set up to show was that we're just real people who've made a choice to live a little bit differently and it isn't always about control and it isn't always about having to wear a certain dress or having to you know we really wanted to show that we were real people. And I, and even as rough as it is, we are now, still showing that.

I'm Jorge Ramos. And I'm Paola Ramos. Together we're launching The Moment, a new podcast about what it means to live through a time as uncertain as this one. We sit down with politicians. I would be the first immigrant mayor in generations, but 40% of New Yorkers were born outside of this country. artists and activists, I mean, do you ever feel demoralized? I might personally lose hope. This individual might lose the faith, but there's an institution that doesn't lose faith. And that's what I believe in. To bring you depth and analysis from a unique Latino perspective.

There's not a single day that Paola and I don't call or text each other, sharing news and thoughts about what's happening in the country. This new podcast will be a way to make that ongoing intergenerational conversation public. Listen to The Moment with Jorge Ramos and Paola Ramos as part of the MyCultura Podcast Network on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In early 1988, federal agents raced to track down the gang they suspect of importing millions of dollars worth of heroin

into New York from Asia. We had 30 agents ready to go with shotguns and rifles and you name it. But what they find is not what they expected. Basically, your stay-at-home moms were picking up these large amounts of heroin. They go, is this your daughter? I said yes. They go, oh, you may not see her for like 25 years.

Caught between a federal investigation and the violent gang who recruited them, the women must decide who they're willing to protect and who they dare to betray. Once I slowly gone, try to take his hand and I saw the flash of light. Listen to the Chinatown Sting on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or anywhere you get your podcasts. Hey, sis, what if I could promise you you never had to listen to a condescending finance, bro, tell you how to manage your money again.

Welcome to Brown Ambition. This is the hard part when you pay down those credit cards. If you haven't gotten to the bottom of why you were racking up credit or turning to credit cards, you may just recreate. the same problem a year from now. When you do feel like you are bleeding from these high interest rates, I would start shopping for a debt consolidation loan, starting with your local credit union, shopping around online, looking for some online lenders because they tend to have fewer fees and be more affordable. Listen, I am not here to judge. It is so expensive in these streets. I 100% can see how in just a few months you can have this much credit card debt when it weighs on you. It's really easy to just like stick your head in the sand. It's nice and dark in the

sand. Even if it's scary, it's not going to go away just because you're avoiding it, and in fact, it may get even worse. For more judgment-free money advice, listen to Brown Ambition on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hola, it's HoneyGerman, and my podcast, Grasasas Come Again, is back. This season, we're going even deeper into the world of music and entertainment with raw and honest conversations with some of your favorite Latin artists and celebrities. You didn't have to audition? No, I didn't audition. I haven't auditioned in like over 25 years. Oh, wow.

That's a real G-talk right there. Oh, yeah. We've got some of the biggest actors, musicians, content creators, and culture shifters sharing their real stories of failure and success. You were destined to be a start. We talk all about what's viral and trending with a little bit of chisement, a lot of laughs, and those amazing vibras you've come to expect. And, of course, we'll explore deeper topics dealing with identity, struggles,

and all the issues affecting Arla and communication. community. You feel like you get a little whitewash because you have to do the code switching. I won't say whitewash because at the end of the day, you know, I'm me. Yeah. But the whole pretending and code, you know, it takes a toll on you. Listen to the new season of Grasas has come again as part of My Cultura Podcast Network on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Getting to that point, you know, you guys are strong.

female strong women you know what i mean like i don't quite you can explain sort of understand the role of the female in that fundamentalist world but you know would you can first of all would you consider yourself feminists not in the extreme sense of the word yeah definitely we believe like yeah absolutely okay so take take that part of are you are you newfound feminists or do you think you've been a feminist from the beginning. And then if you have, like, how do you square sort of the female role in that fundamental world with sort of how you kind of feel on the inside and how you maybe have acquiesced to parts of it that were against your morality as a female? So I've always considered myself a feminist, which meaning that women could do anything,

any job or anything have any opportunity that a man could have. And I also sort of felt like, I could be very independent and so plural marriage allowed me to function within a marriage and have a family and still be very independent. For me, that was the ideal merge of the two worlds, a feminist world as well as I really did want to have a family, and I really did want to have that partnership with a spouse. And so for me, I feel like I've just even continued to grow in my independence. I have an independence that I didn't even comprehend I could have when I was 22, 23. and in tandem with having a family.

So to me, I feel like I've had it all. I've had the best of both worlds. I've had career. I've raised family. I have a beautiful family and I have a lot of professional opportunity. And I sort of feel like I've got it all. Like I've got everything now. Do you know what I mean?

Were you ever like in the moment thinking, well, this is bullshit? Like, I don't want to wear this. Or this is, you know, I mean, internally resisting. We didn't ever have any thing that we had to wear. We wore regular clothes, do you know what I mean? So that was one of the reasons we went public was to show that, you know, hey, I don't have to wear the dress. I don't have to wear the hair.

That's not part of it. That's some sort of weird dogma that has crept in to some of the sex. You know what I mean? And so that was, we were really out to show that we were just regular people. I was definitely the same thing, a feminist from the very beginning. I mean, even watching my grandmas and how strong and independence. they were and they could do everything and anything and I got to watch my mom's be so strong and they could do everything and anything I wanted to do and then I got married and really whatever I wanted

to do I just learned how to do if something to be fixed I fixed it if that needed to be done I did it and you just learn how to be strong and independent and stand up for yourself and fight for yourself and I mean I was would tell my kids like definition of gentlemen definition of a lady they're both the exact same thing. They're just making sure that everybody in the room is comfortable. So as far as feminism goes, I think it's my job to make sure that everyone is accepted and everyone is accepted at their level where they're, I think that's what true feminism is, is realizing we all have a power within us that needs to be heard and needs to be valued and maybe not understood, but it still needs to be heard. And you never felt that that power was,

you know, sort of being suffocated in any way? Not in my experience. Not for you. Some days for me, I was like, you know, I don't know if I'm necessarily being treated. To me, it was a thing of equality. And so I felt like I wasn't being treated as an equal. I wasn't being treated as a wife. I felt that for the last several years of being married to Cody.

I didn't feel like. So I felt in our family sometimes I was a second class wife. And that was very frustrating to me, very frustrating. That's interesting. thing, you know, because then they're, then, you know, it all sounds great. And, and, and, and then there, that comparison starts to happen when you have sort of, you know, multiple wives or people in those relationships. Like, you're getting more attention than you and, and, and, well, I felt like Cody was comparing. I think, I felt like comparing starting with Cody, not with me. That's what I mean.

That's what I mean. Because I couldn't, I'm going to be a wife like Robin. And don't sign me up for that. I'm not going to do what you want me to do all the time or whatever she did. I don't know exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm going to be me, you know. And so. that, I mean, I just feel like it was a lot of comparing that happened and there was a pedestal that was, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. So I'm not going to conform my life to what you want me to be. I'm going to conform my life to what I want me to be. Well, I also think, you know, human nature is when you have a group of people in general, like you're going to gravitate towards one more than the other. I'm not talking about just in your situation, but just in a group of people. Like there's a connection. There's a chemistry that happens. When you have multiple wives, I'm sure that that's just a natural thing where you are gravitating more towards one person and another. Yeah, but you're not supposed to do that all of her, not in plural marriage. I know, but isn't that, but isn't that human sort of like just a feeling?

Really, truly. So a woman comes in and she, her role is to kind of learn her value and learn how to be independent and all that. He actually is failing if he is allowing one relationship to be more significant. That is the man's challenge in living plural marriage. They have to expand their capacity, emotional. like most guys don't really want to sign me up don't sign me up they they all think like the great the sex is all great i can get you know but but like there's an emotional component

that comes along when you're when you're having multiple families you have to meet the needs of your wives and your children so he was failing when he when he was failing the standard when that started to happen so interesting so he that was his that was a failure on his part right right and how does that you know are with you guys but just in general, I mean, you know, as far as intimacy goes or just even connectivity goes, I mean, is there, does there jealousy that happens, you know, within the groups? You know, I didn't feel jealous too much. I didn't really feel jealous before Robin, before Cody married Robin.

I feel like what they had was a true soulmate relationship. And I really felt like he started to focus so much on Robin and her kids. So for me, I didn't get jealous until then. And then suddenly when your needs are being met and like when his capacity, He wasn't growing anymore to, you know, be there for all of us. I feel like that's when jealousy really started to creep in. Got it. And for me, and before that didn't matter.

Before, I'm like, everyone's needs are being mad. I think we're fine. And even the intimate part of it, it's not, doesn't matter. Like, it's just part of the deal. There's no jealousy when it comes to that stuff. Well, you're not comparing notes and you're definitely not. You don't talk about that all of us. Yeah, everybody's relationship is very separate.

No, I know, but like with my wife, when I first met her, most men don't want to know anything. I'm different. I'm like, I want to know every dude you've been with. I don't know every detail because I don't want to run into this guy. You know, like I, but I'm sort of like a jealous-ish person. Yeah, no. We respect the sanctity of that marriage boundaries, you know what I mean? Okay.

Well, that's great. I mean, but, you know, you got to, there's got to be chat behind the camera's cut. No, never. Not about that. I never. No, because I just, I didn't feel like that was my business and I didn't feel like it would be helpful to know. So I didn't really care.

We had four separate marriages and we kept them separate as far as the. We might bitch about something Cody did. Like, oh, I believe he went out and bought that car. Right. Come on. The luggage rack. Come on. There were definitely things that we would bitch out about.

Yeah. Well, this has been amazing. Like, I could talk to you guys forever. It's just so fascinating. Thank you. We've appreciated it. No, I really, it's amazing. And I love, you know, to sort of see how strong you guys are and, you know, how independent you are and sort of turning the, you know, just the idea of what this is on its head, you know, to watch and to see how these experiences have made you who you are and have created these strong-ass women who are living their lives in the way that they want to live it right now. That's what I want my motto to be. A strong-ass woman who's living in her. life. No, it's true. I mean, it's so, it's so, it's so great. I mean, it's just awesome to, to, to have this chat, you know. And then, so the show is out, right? The season is out. It's airing right now.

It's airing right now. Yeah, every Sunday, Sunday night on TLC. Okay. And, and, and you want to, okay, real, real quick, and then we'll go, but like, I didn't get into this. How did this even happen? How did the TV show even come about? Yeah, so I was in a group of, um, people that were in charge of spreading spreading polygamy awareness basically and someone reached out to me through that group and then I'm like then they talked I hooked him up with Cody and he was our he ended up being our producer for her years and years and years we all sat down and we talked and he's like I want to do a documentary on your family and we're like that won't work if you do a documentary and you open up our family we're going to all lose our jobs our kids are going to be bullied in school we

can't do that it's it was a felony back then so we're like like we'd have to have it be a series. And so he became our producer and one of our very good friends for years. And so he took it and he found TLC and they partnered with us. And it's for that first time when we were sitting there in this room with all these TLC executives and executives and like reality television, they showed our pilot. And there we are just this small family who were so scared of the whole outside world. And they showed our family.

they're on a big screen with all of these strangers. And at the end, everyone went totally quiet. It was silent. Silence. And then they started clapping and we're like, it was hard. It was super scary to go public. It was really hard for the whole outside world is a scary thing. But I feel like what's come from it, the understanding that people have now towards plural marriage, but then also realizing that we're just like them.

And everybody, it seems like every woman that I meet, um, associates with. one of us and identifies with one of us. Well, because I think when you hear, you know, when you hear polygamy, it's, it's, immediately the connotation is a dude with a bunch of women and he's having his way and he's, he's, you know, lording over them. And that, that's the, just the idea when, without even understanding the reality and the truth of it, you know, so there's a nice expose that you guys were able to do to say, no, no, no, no, no, it's not just about that. No, no, no, right? Good call. But we also, just if I can really quickly, because through our efforts and especially we have some very dear friends who worked very hard, hand in hand with the legislature in Utah, polygamy was decriminalized.

So everybody is not nearly as afraid. They can come out of the shadows. They can live openly. And that is really huge as far as some of the things, you know, that the community was stumbling with. That's great. I mean, why, why make that a federal? Why make that a felony? I mean, it's lovely that it's decriminalized now.

Yeah, yeah. All right, one last question. Would you, what about switching it up where you get to have four husbands? Too much work. No, thanks. Sign me up for that. You have to realize the husband we were previously married to was a lot of work. Yeah, that was enough.

No, I'm a monogamous through and through. I love David, and I'm so glad that I found him. And I have no interest in marrying anybody. And I love monogamy. So much. Good. And then Janelle, obviously not the four,

that's kind of a joke. No. You know, what's your, what is your 10 years in 10 years? Like, do you want to be married again? Do you want to,

are you happy being single? Are you just having a good time? Really, really happy being single. I'm not even dating. Christine and David are always like, you really should sign up for some of those things. You should really like meet people.

And I'm like, I don't know. I don't know, like a lot of work. So, you know, maybe, but it will have to happen organically for me.

I'm probably not going to go looking. for it. No, I know. By the way, that's the best way to go, you know. I hope so. I don't know. I looked for it. I went out there.

I did the whole app thing. Oh, good for you. And you found David. Like, you found David. And that's great. Amazing. It's like, if it happens, it happens, you know? If it's not a priority, then why make it a priority until it becomes a lot of

things going on? Yeah, when it becomes a priority and they're like, you have that burn. Like, I want someone. I need someone. I want love. I want to feel loved. I want to love someone. Then you'll do it.

I think so. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Well, this has been amazing. Thank you guys. Thanks. Thank you. I really loved having this conversation. It was really fun for me. Thanks. It was a pleasure. Thank you so much, Oliver. Thank you for your time. Yes, thank you. Bye. Later, guys. Bye. Bye. Wow. Totally changed my, you know, my opinion, I guess. I mean, I was probably one of those people who thought, oh, you know, polygamy, plural marriage, you have this sort of idea of what it is.

I haven't seen the show, so I probably asked a lot of questions that have been answered a million times over in the show, but watching them from episode, season one, episode one until now, I mean, I'm sure it's night and day, that journey, you know, from where they were to where they are now. Not to say where they were It was anything negative I mean as we talked about They gained so much experience And built so much character

Through what it is that they went through And now they are who they are But I mean it's pretty Pretty cool Maybe I'll think about it You know I'm going to talk to Aaron I'm going to talk to Aaron tonight And

See if we can't get into this plural thing you know the way i'm going to pitch it is like this like babe this is nothing to do with other women okay uh and me this is more about you and creating a sisterhood and you know this is it's going to be great we'll see we'll see how it goes anyway um all right i'm leaving bye Hi, I'm Jennifer Lopez, and in the new season of the Over Comfort podcast, I'm even more honest, more vulnerable, and more real than ever. Am I ready to enter this new part of my life? Like, am I ready to be in a relationship? Am I ready to have kids and to really just devote myself and my time?

Join me for conversations about healing and growth, all from one of my favorite spaces, The Kitchen. Listen to the new season of the Overcomper podcast on. the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, it's your favorite jersey girl, Gia Judice. Welcome to Casual Chaos, where I share my story. This week, I'm sitting down with Vanderpump Roll Star, Sheena Shea. I don't really talk to either of them, if I'm being honest. There will be an occasional text, one way or the other, from me to Ariana,

maybe a happy birthday from Ariana to me. I think the last time I talked to Tom, it was like, Congrats on America's Got Talent. This is a combo you don't want to miss. Listen to Casual Chaos on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It may look different, but Native Culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop.

That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The internet is something we make, not just something that happens to us. I'm Bridget Todd, host of the Tech and Culture Podcasts or No Girls on the Internet. In our new season, I'm talking to people like Aneal Dash, an OG entrepreneur and writer who refuses to be cynical about the Internet. I love tech. You know, I've been a nerd my whole life, but it does have to be for some. something like it's not just for its own sake it's an inspiring story that focuses on people as the

core building blocks of the internet listen to there are no girls on the internet on the iHeart radio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast this is an iHeart podcast