Sibling Revelry with Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson - Supporting Black Lives Matter and Understanding White Privilege

Episode Date: June 12, 2020

On today’s episode, Kate and Oliver talk to activist and author Kate Schatz, who W. Kamau Bell assigned as Conan O'Brien’s whiteness tutor. They discuss why it’s important for white people to educate themselves about systemic racism, white privilege, and why it’s taken so long for our country to move toward racial justice. They also talk about how to support Black Lives Matter, the importance of local elections, how to combat racism, and much more.Executive Producers: Kate Hudson, Oliver Hudson, and Sim SarnaProduced by Allison BresnickEditor: Josh WindischMusic by Mark HudsonThis show is brought to you by Cloud10 and powered by Simplecast.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hi, I'm Kate Hudson. And my name is Oliver Hudson. We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationship. And what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling ravelry. No, no. Sibling reverie. Don't do that with your mouth.

Sibling reverie. That's good. Hi, Ollie. It's been a bit. We've taken some time to think about what we and how we wanted to speak to current events and how we feel about it and I was actually watching a Conan interview with W. Camel Bell and they talked about how it's not black people's job to tell white people what they can do right now and you yourself actually had an experience

with a friend who said something similar to you which I thought was interesting. Yeah, I did and this was early on and I just asked, I didn't ask a question. I just thought I'd love to have a conversation, you know, here's what I'm feeling, and I would just love to have a chat. And he texted me, read this first, and sent me an article, basically telling me to not ask him any questions and do my own work. So it was educational, even in his pointing me in the right direction so in conan's particular example w kamal bell put a woman her name's kate shots in charge of conan's whiteness quote you know quote unquote whiteness and i listened we poached her we poached yeah i was like you know what i want to call kate i i think that yeah i i hear you w kamal i'm i want to call

kate there's a lot of questions and it felt like the right thing to do with would be to call Kate and ask some questions and have a dialogue with her about everything that's happening right now and how we're feeling and what is the best kind of way forward. The big question with white people is what can I do? I think a lot of black friends are being inundated with white friends asking them, how do I contribute? What can I do? you know and um it's not necessarily their job to explain to us the history of racism or what we can do to be a part of the solution i think part of it is discovering that ourselves and so it was nice to

talk to her you know being the professor in a sense yeah yeah and she says too like she's not she's not an expert she's just been in his field and spoken to this she's a writer and she has spoken to this for so long. So she is clearly very well informed. And I learned so much. And I just hope that I hope that this episode is enjoyed and that we all learn a lot. I know that's a very overused word right now. Actually, it's not overused. It could never be overused. I was actually talking about how much I love that people are interested in learning and that people are saying that I want to learn. I want to understand. It's a beautiful step forward. And then the actionable is how do we implement these things in our in our daily life and moving forward. Right. And it's important to say that, you know, we took some time to figure out the right way to go about releasing an episode after all of this, right? But there is no right way. There is our way. And this is how we sort of, this is how we feel or how we felt. This is the best.

way to sort of present our first episode right or wrong you know what I mean like this is the point we have to be active we have to take the chance of being wrong you know I mean are we going to get but are we going to get diss are we going to get diss for having like a a white woman on to talk about you know race and what's going on I don't know who knows but you know this was a choice and it's a choice that we stick by, and, you know, it's about being uncomfortable and taking chances, as long as it's coming from your heart and a place of authenticity and, you know, with positivity, then that's all we can do. You know, we are going to be airing these episodes, one here with Kate, the next one with

a professor of history, race, and public policy at the Harvard Kennedy School, Khalil Mohammed. we and and and and continuing forward we will speak to people on the black lives matter movement and it's important to me that I do my part in continuing to support that and we need to continue talking about it continue the uncomfortable conversations and then actually doing the work showing the work and then and then implementing it it's really important to understand the context go back into history, you know, just understand the patterns that have been created and adopted for 400 years. And it just opens up your mind. It changes your perspective. It brings in a lot of empathy, you know, for me personally. It's all about momentum. We're in a surge of momentum right

now. It will wane. There's no doubt, but we have to keep it, keep it alive, keep the fire alive. Yeah. I think also one thing I've learned from this conversation and from just listening to a bunch of other stuff, it's like when you feel like as a white person, right? And so many white people in this or get so defensive about this movement. And like I guess what I would say is that if you're feeling defensive, if you feel you feel like you need to defend your whiteness or you, you know, it's just stop and ask. yourself why you feel that way. You know, before reacting to the feeling, you know, realize that whatever that feeling is, whatever that defensive nature, whatever's going to deflect from this movement,

whatever that is is what a lot of people are talking about, like the systemic racism, this country built on white supremacy, all these things that we're starting to really learn about and put at the forefront of educating people, like part of sometimes that defense is exactly what that is speaking to and just like stop, breathe and like recognize your whiteness for a second, you know, and and ask yourself why you're feeling that way. Yeah. I think Kate Schatz answered the question very eloquently

and perfectly, honestly, because, you know, a lot of people are probably feeling, well, white privilege i worked my ass off to get where i got you know what i mean white privilege i work my fucking ass off i came from a very poor family that my mom left and she was a drug abuser and you know how am i white privileged but you know that's where a lot of defensiveness probably comes in but that's where you got to go underneath look under the surface a little bit even in that situation you're the color of your skin has afforded you you know benefits that you know someone of color does not did not you know um and she explains that very well i hope it does inspire people to have more dialogue even if it is uncomfortable and um even if it's a debate you know what i mean even if you're

even if you're going against something that your family member might feel it's important to have that discussion and that debate you know you can change minds you know it's it's possible you know it's important it's important just to have the dialogue kate shots thank you for being here to just hopefully answer i know a lot of questions that oliver and i have and you know i know you're in charge of conan's whiteness but we thought we'd take it upon ourselves and and and ask you to come be in charge of our whiteness for an hour? Yeah, I'm really here for as much whiteness as possible. It's my, the role that I am, I'm taking on, I'm happy, I keep saying,

I volunteer as tribute for, you know, white people right now, and I will do what I can to answer questions and offer insight. I'm not an expert because I don't think anybody's an expert on this stuff, but I'm willing to talk about it, which is more than a lot of us. Great. Well, I'm going to get, I'm going to just hit, hit our listeners with your bio a little bit. You're a New York Times bestselling author of RAD American Women, A to Z, and RAD women worldwide, as well as my rad life, a journal and rid of me, a story. You're the co-founder of Solidarity Sundays, a nationwide network of feminist activist groups. Your writer, organizer, public speaker, educator, left-handed vegetarian, Bay Area born and bred feminist activist mama.

It's basically my bio. You're left-handed, too? I am. I'm left-handed. Lefties. I'm a left-handed feminist mama, too. There you go. Should we just jump right into this?

Well, how did you get, you know, how were you sort of selected to play this role right now? How did this even happen? This came about last week. So W. Camel Bell is a fantastic. comedian and activist and he's a good friend of mine. And when in the wake of the murder of George Floyd and as the protest started to increase, he reached out to me and said, you know, I'm getting, basically he was getting a lot of white people coming to him. And he was like, not everyday white people, like rich, powerful white people. And they were coming

to him saying, what can I do right now? What do I do? And he, as most people of color that I know, or was felt tired of having to tell people what to do. And so he kind of jokingly said to me, like, what do you tell them? You're a white lady. I don't know. Can you help? Can I just send them to you? And I was like, yes, come out.

Send the white people my way. I will talk to them. I will help guide them. Sure. I'll do what I can. I did not expect the first white person to be Conan O'Brien. But so he called, you know, he texted me the next day and said, cool, I'm going on Conan in 20 minutes.

What should I tell him? Can I send him your way? And I said, sure. So, I mean, in a way. it's, you know, it's facetious. That's what come out and other comedians do so well is to use humor as a way to get to deeper, important topics. But that's how it came about. Now we're working together and he's dropping my name on other shows. And what that's resulting in is me using social media as a platform to connect and communicate and to try to listen to the genuine

questions that a lot of white people have right now about what to do and how to be. And I try to do it in a way that's not about shaming or calling people out or getting mad or canceling anybody. But, you know, it's also not about coddling and trying to make people feel good. Yeah. I feel like so many powerful black leaders have actually given an opportunity for white people to feel like they can make mistakes and ask questions in a way that, like, we're not going to get it right all the time. We're not going to. Yeah. When someone says, like, you know,

at least for me even, you know, I don't know what to say. I don't know what the right way to say it is. I don't want to upset anybody. And it's like, well, you're not always going to say it right. And you're going to say something that might upset somebody. And you might, you know, but you have to keep talking about it and keep the dialogue. Well, don't you also have to take those risks, you know, calculated risks when you're just speaking from your authenticity and your truth and your heart, sometimes you run the risk of maybe saying the wrong thing. not intentionally, right? I think the problem is we're living in this cancel culture right now.

There's a fear that if you do say the wrong thing, you're just going to get hammered for it. So then people stay silent. White people stay silent, you know. I myself am trying to sort of work through that part as well personally, you know. And I think one thing you said, Kate, about, you know, that we worry about making people upset. And I think one thing to think about is people are already upset. You know, people are really upset and really hurting, you know. And so part of when we do step up and speak and share our thoughts, you know, it's true. We will end up upsetting people even more sometimes. And I think one of the biggest lessons that white people can learn right now is how to move with grace through those moments. You know, if you are speaking authentically and

genuinely about what you believe and you are trying, you will get it wrong at some point. And someone might call you out. And if you are a person who has a really, really big platform and a lot of influence, it's really hard. And so when you get called out, in what way can you listen and, you know, choose a response that's grateful or grateful and that allows you to learn instead of just like getting super reactive and defensive. Have you been called out before? Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I've been called out. You know what I've been called in? And I think Those are phrases that people use, too, the difference between calling someone out and calling someone in, right? So calling someone in being a kinder but still honest way to say, you know, hey, like, I didn't love what you said there.

Like, can we talk about why that was hurtful? Or, you know, I want to like point out that you just use this phrase, again, maybe it wasn't your intention. Because there's a difference, you know, people will often react with, well, I didn't mean to. I didn't mean for that to happen. but if your words or your actions or your post harm someone like that that's their their feelings are valid you know um so uh i like the idea of calling it but yes i've absolutely been i love i also think i think that it's also sort of allowing the vulnerability to be something that is okay and that people can be you know access because i find that there's just so much defensiveness in in this in this conversation and you know it's okay If we can give each other's space to be vulnerable enough to be like, I made a mistake. I'm sorry that I want to do right. My intentions are in the right place.

Then, you know, maybe people will start feeling a little bit more comfortable speaking up a little bit louder. I know that in my circles, the thing that is always asked between all white people, what do we do? like what what do we do you know are we damned if we do damned if we don't if we get too far in front of this does it become sort of performative and is it self-serving and if you don't say anything at all is it you know you like what what what what's how do you use your platform for uh black lives matter if you are feel really connected to it and want to fight for it which i think a lot of people, at least in our industry, do, what are the best ways to communicate that you're,

you know, an ally? Well, I think that there's a couple ways to look at it, right? And part of it is, like, there's what you do now, like today and tomorrow, because we're really in this moment, right? We're in a hot center of the moment. So it's what do you do now and say? But then also, what do you do on a longer term basis? You know, what does this work mean? So if you are a company or a business and now, okay, you put up your Black Lives Matter sign on your Instagram page or in your storefront, what does that mean for you, your community, your institution, your staff moving forward? So there's a longer term work that has to happen. And then there is, again, the immediate. I mean, I love what's happening today with the share the mic now, right?

That's with all of these really influential. I don't know why I wasn't asked to do it. But there's like, yeah, it's like 46 influential white women with really big Instagram followings and they're just giving their proof their platforms over to equally influential and incredible black women for the day so people can listen and learn. So that's a fantastic. That's like, to me, that's a really clear example of like, how do you leverage your privilege? Because that's what it's about, right?

When white people are asking what can I do, to me, the real question is how can I leverage my privilege in this moment, you know, to lift up this movement. But then the other thing I would say, too, is how can it's, you know, you want to be thinking about not just what can I do, like where can I donate, who can I support, but what work do I need to do on myself? Because to me, what I'm interested into is shifting the conversation about race and racism away from racism is a bad thing that happens to people of color, to racism is rooted in white supremacy and that impacts me as well, right?

is part of the conversation. And I think for so many white people who've been raised, especially if you're raised in a kind of semi-liberal or progressive kind of 70s, 80s setting, that there was this real cultural myth about not wanting to ever talk about race, that we're colorblind. You know, I don't see color. And almost that we were grown, grew up afraid to even acknowledge race and racial difference. And the truth is, I guarantee you every person of color knows that they're a person of color. It's like white people are kind of the only people that don't talk about it. So, learning to talk about our whiteness and our skin privilege as part of the conversation about race is to me a really important starting point because so often we talk about it as if it's distanced, you know, away from us. But white supremacy actually harms us all. Well, I think when you talk about that starting point, you know, and I'm just speaking for myself here, but there are different lanes it seems to enter you know and for me the first one is sort of awareness okay just being aware and then there's the education because for me personally it was about sort of digging into books you know reading articles not just on a surface knowing

sort of what will just sort of broad understanding of what racism is and was it's getting into the depths of it it's truly understanding the word systemic because systemic is now becoming buzzy but I think we need to look into what that word actually means and when we go back 400 plus years

and follow the father grandfather great grandfather great great great great great great you know there is a it's in the fabric, you know, the systemic racism is just in the, in the, it's in the fabric of America. You know what I mean? How do we, how do we cleanse that? You know, how do we sort of move forward from that? It's so deep. And for me, it's just understanding just the, the depth of it and how far it goes. You know, that's been big for me personally. Yeah. And that, that, what the challenge, I think, especially for people who are using social media,

this moment's moving fast. There's a lot expected that we react, that we say the right thing. But that work that we're talking about, that you're talking about is deep and it's thoughtful and it's long. Those books take a long time to read, you know, if you're really reading them.

Like you should spend a while reading these books. And this is 400 years of history that we don't get taught. Yeah. It's not something where people are going to learn in a week. You know, this is a commitment to, you know, the action, like, you know, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm curious, how does white supremacy harm us all? I mean, I know what I think. I just want to hear from you, you know, what, what you really mean by that, and, you know, to elaborate on.

Sure. Sure. Thank you. So I would say in the same way that you just said all over, like, systemic has become a buzzword. White supremacy is a phrase that is, you know, it's a really strong phrase. It's like defund the police, right? These phrases where a lot of people are just like, ugh, you know, we associate white supremacy with the KKK and it is. But if you break it down, white supremacy is, it's the belief that white people on the basis of their skin color are supreme, are better, are the norm, right? Are the center. And everything else is. is situated, you know, in relation to. And that's how, what the, like you said, is 400 years in this country. So it's harmed us because it's a lie. The world is not white. Despite centuries of colonialism and attempts, the world is not white.

But white people are not the center of the world. There are thousands of cultures and all kinds of people. And I think that it gives us a skewed version and vision of our own history and our ancestors. And it puts us in a false position of superiority. And I think that I was talking yesterday to a wonderful children's book author named Anastasia Higginbotham, who wrote a book for children about whiteness called Not My Idea, with the premise being, look, white supremacy and racism, it's not my idea. White people, it's not, it wasn't our idea. It's not, no, it's not our fault, but it is our problem.

Right. And she talked about in talking to children about race, you know, the idea of talking to children about whiteness as not as black people are treated badly, but more of because of their skin color. But as white people, we get treated unfairly. People treat us better. We get things for unfair reasons because of our people don't suspect us of things. People will assume better things about us. And that's and that's not. fair i mean it's not a we don't have a level playing field and we are given a leg up so ultimately that is that is i have a question actually and i don't know if this is controversial in any way but well well i'm just thinking about the other side of things when we talk about patterns okay when we talk about being something that is systemic is racism learned i would say so okay only because we come out these sort of pure beings right so on the other side of things, when you go down sort of the racist path from grandfather to great-grandfather, you know, how do we break those patterns? So if I'm coming from a place

of true compassion, okay, how do these kids have a chance? If they're growing up with racist parents, how do we break that cycle? Because they're just these beautiful beings that are born into the world. And now they are sort of being imprinted upon with this hate. So how do we deal with that side of things? Yeah. That's a great question. And it's so heartbreaking, right? I mean, this is a thing we know. Like, you do not, you do not come into this world, a hateful person. You know, children, this stuff is absolutely learned. It's absolutely inherited and taught. And I think, you know, my quickest answer there, are we published and buy more radical children's books. That's kind of why I do the work that I do.

And we also make sure that we are paying attention to what's being taught in schools, that we have history books that tell the full story, that we have diverse teachers in schools. I mean, not to put it all in the schools, but if that's the home environment they're growing up in school, it's going to be one of the most powerful places. And also the media. We make sure that we have television shows and media that reflects kids of color and different experiences. And we make sure that we have curriculum in schools and teachers who are actually trained to be compassionate and to understand kids of color and diverse histories. And the other thing is the word racism, you know, I think a lot of people would say, I'm not racist, right? Right. Okay.

I don't consider myself racist. Now, am I unconsciously biased? I think we're all bias to some extent. But how do you sort of deal with this idea or coming to terms as a white person with your degree of racism? Because racism is such a dirty word, right? It is. Yeah. It's hard to admit sometimes. So you admit it. I'm racist. I've had racist. I've had racist. I've had racist. thoughts. I absolutely have. I'm not a bad person and I work really hard to resist them and to recognize them. Sometimes I talk about it in terms of like meditation, right? When you're doing a meditation and you're told like when the thoughts drift into your head, don't just, don't just ignore them. Like let the thoughts just kind of be, you know, and then, but stay in your focus meditation. So, you know, sometimes I encourage people, racist thoughts will come into

your head. You are conditioned that way. I mean, this is the thing. We are conditioned to see this in the world and it's about unlearning it. So if you have a thought that comes into your head, you see a person and you have an assumption, what happens if you let it kind of stay in your head and acknowledge it and not just ignore it and pretend like it never happened? So I think actually one of the most powerful things why people can do is admit like, yeah, I have had racist thoughts. I've done racist things. I don't want to be a racist, but, you know, it's like admitting the problem is a big part of the start. Kate, why? is it so uncomfortable to talk about race?

You know, even as I'm sitting here, I have a little tightness in my chest and my tummy, you know. Yeah. Why? Because, let's see, I think for a number of reasons. I think one, because many of us were raised to be afraid of it, to be afraid of those conversations to think that actually talking about it was wrong. Again, unless you were, like, if you were raised in an actively racist household,

then you were talking about race all the time, right? outside of that. And then, you know, I know who your parents are. They're pretty cool. Like, I know that, you know, like, you were raised in a way to not want to be racist. And so it's scary to talk about it because it means acknowledging that you are part of this hurtful, harmful history and problem that you don't actually have a lot of control over, right? And we really want to, we always want to separate ourselves from the larger problems.

Again, though, I'm not racist. You know, I'm not a racist. None of us want to see ourselves as a part of a harmful system. You know, it's like men are like, well, I'm not sexist. I love women. My wife's awesome. I would never. It's like, well, you still are like part of the patriarchy.

What are you doing to dismantle that and to address that, you know? It's hard because it's really uncomfortable and because it makes you reflect on ways in which maybe you have not acted well. And I think it also, I think it's especially for women that we are very conditioned to want to please people. please people and to make people happy and make feel good and we don't like to be wrong yeah oh yeah um yeah just i hate my whole all of my yeah we we don't like it we don't like any of those feelings and talking about racism makes us confront those feelings now if you're not part of the solution then are you part of the problem yeah that's the uh that's the old adage right okay right so now that's what this awakening seems to sort of be right now, which is, wait a minute. No, I'm not

racist. Oh, wait a minute. Am I? Oh, my bias. What am I? Here's what I'm not. Here's what I haven't been. I haven't been part of the solution. And that's where my eyes are opening for myself is I haven't been part of the solution. I've lived my life doing what I am doing, considering myself absolutely non-racist, okay, but am I anti-racist, which I'm learning about now as well? No. And this is where my shift is happening. I want to become part of the solution. How do I become part of the solution?

I think it's also how to, but it's also like what are the questions, what you're saying and is a great question, you know, two-part question. What are the questions we should be asking ourselves? Yeah. So I think, yeah, I love what you're saying, Oliver, because I think you're framing it in terms of action, right? Like, there's a difference between being not racist and anti-racist. God, somewhere on the internet.

I mean, the internet is filled with so many fantastic videos that break all of this down. You know, like, it has been for a long time, and now it's, like, exploding with it. There's a really good video somewhere. I can't remember where about the difference between being anti-racist and just not a racist person. And so, yeah, like, how do you, how do you get active? I, like, I tend to direct people to your own immediate community and your own life. I think people who are business owners, who have staff, who have, you know, like really doing an internal audit of, like, who's working for you, who are you supporting, what businesses are you supporting in your community? You know, how, you know, what is that looking like?

Is that super white? Is it super males? It's super straight. Like, how do you, you know, how do you impact the people working with you? But I also think that there's so much to be done, just, again, within communities. The other thing I say, too, for people who are like, what can I do right now to be anti-racist? Well, we have an election coming up in November. And it's not just about the president.

And this is a time when we're really seeing how local city-state elections are so meaningful. and racial injustice, the thing about it is that it impacts, it intersects with every aspect of our communities. It's health care. It's housing. It's public education, right? It's all of these things. So there are so many places for people to plug in and be making an impact. And I do think that those of the elections, school board, city council, mayor, all of those things.

I mean, we saw what happened in Minneapolis. That's a city council. making decisions about the entire police force. Yeah. Well, that's what's crazy is, and again, through my sort of this awakening, you know, really it's about local government. I mean, of course, you've got your federal, right? But to make real change, you have to vet these people who are elected officials,

whether it be your district attorney, ADA, sheriff, mayor, all of these people. So, and I am, you know, I box the president or the primary. and then I'm like, see, see, see in the bubble. So I'm like, wait a minute. I go back, you know, and I reflect on my voting. And I'm like, shit, I don't fucking pay any attention to that. And I need to pay attention. That's really what matters most.

It's huge. Yeah. You know, the other thing I'd say, too, is that what white people can do, what you can do to be anti-racist is to just talk about it, is to be that person in your, group of friends once we all hang out with friends again or be that person in the zoom you know whatever way you're communicating or in your family like be the person to bring it up um you know in whatever way feels right for you but like for a very long time pretty much forever white people have

been letting people of color be the ones to bring it up um and then turning around immediately and saying you're making it about race you're playing the race card yeah we need to make we need to make it about grace. I think there's a lot of white homes right now that are engaging in very heated debate. And it's important. It's important. There's a lot of kids standing up to their parents saying, I don't agree with you. There's a lot of women standing up to their partner saying, no, I do not agree with you. But it's also admitting that you have bias. you know, I mean, that's huge, I think, is to action, and that's when they talk, when you talk about being uncomfortable and it's not going to be comfortable. It's actually coming to terms with the

fact that you are racist. It's a hard word to say, and maybe it's easier to say bias, but you have bias. We all have bias. We've all had it in our lives. There's just no doubt about it. And to come to terms with that and actually fully admit that, it's not an easy thing to do and say to truly admit that and believe that, you know. Yeah. That's scary. It sucks. It sucks.

Yeah, it does, but it's like really, really important. I do think that once you, if you can begin to do that, I think it does become easier to talk about. Like, at least for me, I feel like it's a little bit of like a weight off the shoulders. I think it's also part of why I feel comfortable having these conversations. Like it doesn't, it's not hard for me anymore because I've been having them for a long time. And I think you asked me earlier, have I ever been called out? Like, yeah, I've learned a ton from listening to and reading and talking to and being in community with people of color who have pointed things out, who've helped me be better.

You know, and it's admitting these things is, it makes it much easier to talk. What a, real quick, sorry, just what about just semantics for a second? Black, African American, you know, because there's always been a debate. and in your head, you know, you're sort of stutter, you're like, ooh, do I say black or do I say African American? I read, you know, this guy Benjamin O'Keefe wrote an article for Vox that really resonated with me. I started following on my Instagram and then I, he posted something. He's saying, I'm not African American. Where do you go with that? So I think language is always evolving, you know, terms, you know, constantly evolve. And I think I don't, I usually say black.

I say people of color. I say African-American sometimes. When I write, I capitalize black. I do think it's, I don't think there's one exact right answer. And another thing, you know, I think I've been saying a lot in conversations this week is that as white people, we have to remember also that, like, black people and people of color are not a monolith, right? Like, they don't think of all the white people you know and all the different opinions they have. Like, the same goes for people who are not white, right? So there's not like always one right answer.

And that's part of what makes all of this work so difficult, is that you are always going to offend, upset someone. You know, there might be people who are listening who are like, why do you have the white lady on to talk about race before having the African American guest next week, right? Like some people will call that out. And some people will be like, thank you for having this conversation about whiteness first and doing that work. People are going to have all kinds of opinions.

And so I think to some degree, I have black friends who, black works great for them i have people who prefer african-american i think it's a personal preference for a lot of people and i think like you said oliver like noticing what you're struggling with and then going and looking it up and being like what is the right word how to like doing that's part of like doing your work yeah just because you get it wrong doesn't mean you're a bad person it just means you learn something new and and you're under yeah yeah it's just desensitizing your ignorance a little bit. You know, I mean, you're learning. There's a learning process. As long as your intention is to learn. Just as none of us want to be wrong. We don't want to mess off. We want to know.

We don't like to be ignorant. We don't like to not know things. But again, when it comes to the history of this country and it comes to the history of race in this country, we are ignorant. We do not get taught it. Unless you went to a really radical social justice oriented school in recent decades, you most likely did not learn the full spectrum of America. in history as it pertains to race and systemic racism and injustice. So you are in many ways ignorant and now you are learning and that is good. Can you talk to redlining a little bit? Can you speak to redlining a little bit?

I mean, I have to say, I feel like this is a moment where there's so many people who've been working on all this and doing this work in different aspects for so long. And it's so wild as I talk to my friends who are writers and who've been writing about this. Also, and historians, like, people are like, oh, my God, they're saying redlining now. People are talking about the Tulsa Mass before 1921, like, yay, we're talking about it. These are not things to be giggling about at all. These are actually horrific histories, but they are really clear example of systemic inequity. So redlining, and people can Google it, but it was a very clear process around housing and bank loans in the 1930s in hundreds of Americans.

urban areas and cities, where cities were broken up with actual colored lines on maps that would rank the neighborhoods in order of very desirable, kind of desirable, and then all the way down to basically dangerous and uninhabitable. And those would be marked with a red line around them. Those neighborhoods were where majority black communities live. Also in many instances Jewish communities, sometimes Eastern European immigrant communities, but mostly black. And then those areas were basically unable to get bank loans and all kinds of other, you know, different kinds of financing. And it's like there's all these studies and articles and charts that can show you exactly how that shaped American cities and low-income neighborhoods and then how it impacts public schools and property taxes because people could not buy homes.

And home ownership is one of the indicators of wealth, right? That is how we pass down and have a lot of wealth in this country. And so I feel like people started really talking again about redlining in like 2008, like during the crash. And people were suddenly looking at all of these faulty loans. But that is a clear history during the 1930s that we can learn about and really see why cities look the way they do. So crazy. When you really look into that, it's just like, it's sure. shocking. Real quick, just about kids, you know, because I have three kids, Kada's

three kids, you have a kid. You know, I mean, right now I can just speak from my own experience. My kids, they're asking a lot of questions. There's no doubt about it. They don't, they're, we live in a world or at least, I can't get inside their heads, but they don't see it. They don't feel what we're feeling right now. And there's, I think there's this sort of debate, at least I am having the debate and I've decided to speak to. my children, you know, sit them down. But do we explain it to them? Of course, we do. But there's also this innocence that they have right now. And I think there's a fear of sort of tainting them in a way and giving them information that is going to sort of skew their innocence.

That's so white of you to say that, Oliver. It is. That's the white thing you've said so far. That's so white. Yeah. Well, I'm just saying there's probably so many people. who are stinking that. Yeah, well, here's the thing. What you're saying, it's also incredibly parental. It's what every parent says. None of us want our kids to know how shitty the world is, right? Like, that's like the worst.

But that is one of the clearest examples of white privilege is that we get to decide when and how our children learn about racism. And all kinds of other things in the world, right? Black and brown children, most often they learn about racism, on the playground when someone calls them a name, or they learn about it when a teacher clearly treats them differently. They learn about it when a kid won't play with them, or when someone says something mean about their mom on the street, or when they see the N-word written somewhere, right? That's how they learn about it. And the talk that black parents have with their kids,

especially their sons, is very different than the ones that we have with our kids. The talk that they have is basically how to not get killed by police, right? Here's what you do if you ever see a police officer, right? Here's what you do when you're driving. So, I keep that in mind when I'm having those difficult conversations with my kids. Like, if I think this is hard, like, I have to understand fully the conversations that parents of color have. The other thing is, I think kids can handle scary things. I think kids also, even if you haven't talked to your kids about race and racism, they see it. They notice that people are different colors.

And they can handle a lot. I also think that kids understand justice more than anybody else because they're, like, obsessed with fairness and what's right and wrong. I mean, my kids are, like, obsessed. If one of them gets more Minecraft time than the other, it's like a complete meltdown. So, like, and when we talk to it in terms of what's fair and what's not, they can really understand. And I think, to me, some good strategies for talking to kids, I mean, absolutely talk to them. I find with my own kids who are seven and 11, the most effective conversations we have are not, like, the big sit-down ones. But, like, it's when something comes on the radio and I kind of bring it up.

or we're driving and I kind of talk about it. Or I'm having a conversation with their dad or with my girlfriend or with someone and they're listening and I kind of bring them into it. And I think that goes with anything like sex, all the stuff it's like hard to talk about. When you sit them down, you're like, this is a very serious thing. They're going to be like, no. So finding ways to weave it in. Right.

Give us some context. Yeah. At the same time. Oliver's been talking about sex with his kids since they like were born. Yes. Right. And there's age appropriate ways. So in the same way that I started talking to my son about consent and like bodies when he was like three years old.

I didn't talk about it in terms of sex. But I started talking to him about what it means to give consent for someone to touch your body or touch another body. There's age appropriate ways that we do this. And kids really get it. Can we address the Black Lives Matter versus All Lives Matter? Oh, yeah. I know that that is one of those things. that when someone tries to kind of bring that up

or debate that with me like I just make it it infuriates me I'm trying to remember there's so much information floating around right now that I sometimes forget where it's coming from but someone was talking to it as recognizing

that all all lives matter movement was never a movement that's what I was going to say Kamau says that and I might say it was Kamau that's one of Kamau's great points he's like look think about it this way No one was saying all lives matter before Patrice Colors and Alicia Garza and Opel Tometti started saying Black Lives Matter. That was not a thing. No one was chanting that. So to even say it is it's always

in opposition to or attempting to undermine the idea and cause and movement of Black Lives Matter, right? Like point me to a moment before that, before 2013, when those women got together in the wake of the acquittal of George Zimmerman, the man who murdered Trayvon Martin, point me to a moment where anybody actually said that, right? So that aside, which is a great point, again, Black Lives Matter is the thing that we will say until it is like all lives matter, all lives certainly do matter, but until Black Lives Matter as much as all lives, statistically, legally, legislatively, emotionally, spiritually in this country, we do not say that all lives matter.

I like it. Thank you for, you know, I think that's one of the big ones that I think it's like at this point. I just my ears shut down every time someone tries to talk about that. I think one thing too, when we're put in those positions where someone is really defensive, I mean,

I'm always interested in any way we can disarm them and turn it around. And you say, well, why is that harmful to you? What are you defending? Like how does that feel? phrase hurt you it's not exactly your omission the omission of you from that statement is how does that negatively impact you like you know i'm interested to hear someone's actual answer to that that's a

great question because then you're getting into their psychology like what is it about you that why are you so adverse to this like but you know what the answer is you know we've heard it all of her you know what the answer is because that's what always ends up being the answer is that you are becoming the biggest problem is by making it about race it's and it's you're not it no longer becomes about equality and you're like you're still missing the point and that's always right it is about race and that's always if you know whenever anybody comes with like why are you making about race the answer is because it is about race it's about race for hundreds of thousands of millions of people. It just isn't for you. So you look around, see the conversations and

what's really happening or, you know, just because it's not for you about race, you know, it actually is. Yep. What does defunding the police actually mean? And I know that people are really starting to understand this is very prominent on social media right now. And yeah, yeah. So what is defunding? I know people, again, it's a provocative hashtag. It's a provocative slogan. It gets people to listen and then hopefully they educate and really understand what it means. Yeah. So defunding the police at this point in the conversation that people are having means looking critically and carefully at how cities allocate their budgets and how much money the police are getting and how much money all the other public services are getting.

Again, you know, there's been a lot of good tweets and memes about this. You know, one of the ones I saw from Zerlina Maxwell was basically like, look, if defunding, no, defunding schools, defunding everything, Republicans just call that tax cuts, you know, so tax cuts for the police is maybe not as a pal, you know, it doesn't have quite the sound. But this is literally what we've been doing. We have been defunding public education every year consistently. We defund housing programs. We defund mental health programs all the time. We do not actively. defund police. And if you Google public school budget cuts right now, you'll see that across the country, especially in the wake of the COVID crisis and the shutdown of schools, that is, I mean, budgets are getting slashed. Teachers are getting furloughed. We know that there's a crisis in public education, but we have what defund the police as a slogan enables us to do is start making connections in budgetary ways about how much the cops are getting and what they're getting it for. And I think that for people who are interested, it's not just about

paying police. Police budgets are huge and it includes personnel and administration. It also includes equipment. And we can put pressure on our police departments to be transparent about their budgets. How much money was spent on military grade tear gas chemical weapons or fancy new tanks, you know, and all of this gear that they buy. And how much was taken from your public schools. And what does it look like to shuffle stuff around? You know, another people also talk about, look, when you call 911, if there's a mental health crisis, when we should have an option in cities to call, mostly now we have a non-emergency number. But what does it look like if there's actually a team of mental health professionals that come and help someone who's in an

actual mental health crisis instead of cops with guns and tasers? How many phone calls to the police department are made because of mental health issues? A lot. And a lot of phone calls are also made by white people who are scared of innocent black people, right? And so this is another, that's a whole other conversation to have, is thinking about when and why you call the police and who you call the police on and as white people knowing that in most communities, if you call the police on a person of color, on someone who is mentally unstable, you are risking that person's life. And it should not be that way. It absolutely, you know, we should be able to think and believe that if someone, you know, like that there's a person, you know, that's certainly a threatening or anything or needs help that we could call a number and have someone come and help them. But that's not the case. It can be an actual death sentence for people of color.

What are the things that you, what are the organizations that you feel are really doing amazing work that could even, further people's education, um, and also places to donate and things like that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I should have like my ready to go list at this point. Um, you know, I mean, I think. Yeah, because I'd love to post it with our, with this. Yeah. I mean, I think I mean, I think black lives matter. Like I would, I would point people to them and to the, to the, to the work that they're doing. Um, and, and to the kind of networks they have, because they tend to, you know, list, they tend to partner and kind of umbrella with a lot of great organizations. You know, but I also, I think for white people, there's an organization that's not to donate to,

but for people that are looking to do more, there's surge, which is showing up for racial justice. And it is an organization specifically for white people who want to be involved in anti-racist work. I think that is fantastic. And I think in terms of donating right now, though, I really want to push people to look at their own communities. and look at smaller community-based organizations that have already been doing this work in your community. I think there's a lot of national ones, getting a lot of money,

especially as big corporations are starting to give millions of dollars, which is great, let's not lose sight of the local people. Again, and that might be like your food bank. That might be any way that we can support, you know, after-school programs for kids. I mean, a lot of my focus is on young people because I think too when we go in whatever way we go back to school eventually we already know there's a huge achievement gap we already know that kids of color are going to be most impacted by budget cuts so anything you can do in your community whether it's like a donors choose for you know public schools and lower income neighborhoods I think that's one of the best places to put your dollars also on those candidates especially women of color who are going to be running for office in November that's another good place to put the money Yeah, women. Women of color, I, you know, when you look at the numbers, you look at the

statistics, you know, and this is for me, too, just as being, having my business and how, you know, holding people accountable for how they hire and, and supporting, for me, women of color and positions of power. Yeah, that's a big one. I wanted to touch upon one thing, just this shame. white shame you know and where does that come into play meaning should you feel do you feel ashamed personally do you have shame you know because yeah and and where does that play for you and is there a right way to sort of deal with that because if I don't feel ashamed of being white am I is that a bad thing I think that's a great question I mean I

to feel that shame and guilt are just two of the most unproductive emotions possible. unbelievably. Yeah. Yeah, they're paralyzing, you know, and we really get stuck in them. So I'm interested in like, how can we acknowledge shame that we have, but not dwell in it, like not let it

stick us, you know? I mean, I did I did like the Ancestry.com thing a few years ago where I found, like, I got obsessed with my family tree. you know and like tracking all my ancestors and all this stuff you know and i found my i had no idea i found my slave owning great great great grandparents i found their census records and saw this in the names of the enslaved people that they owned on census records i found my ancestors that fought on the for the confederacy i found ones that fought for the union too i mean i had no idea this was not talked about in my family talk about shame yeah jesus you know but

like I still love my family. I'm proud of the family members that I know and new, you know. So there's a way in which we can like, like, I'm glad that I learned that about my, about my history to know that, you know, and it's like it is a shameful part, but like I don't, I don't want to carry that shame. I want to do better and, you know, not be that. Yeah, because, because shame is, I mean, just being having shame or being ashamed of yourself or ashamed of being white. Today and today's world just seems, you know, destructive in a way. It's rather just use that. feeling to sort of maybe propel forward rather than get stuck in the muck because, you know, I think there's a lot of people who are, you know, sort of wrestling with do I, am I supposed to be

ashamed of being white, you know, do I, you know, because I don't feel like I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a racist person in my heart, but should I have shame, you know, it's a, it's an interesting thing. I think people might be wrestling with as well. Yeah. And so like, what happens if you just decide to like, you know what, I'm just going to own it. I'm going to own the fact that I'm white. I'm going to own the fact that affords me an enormous amount of privilege. And I'm going to talk about it. And I'm going to leverage it when I can. I'm going to be honest about it. I'm not going to pretend like I'm not white. I'm not going to wallow around in my guilt. Why do we think the word white privilege makes so many white people angry?

Well, for one, a lot of people take it from a very individual place. And they feel that they've worked very, very hard in their life to get what they have. have and where they are. And people feel that it takes away from the personal work that they've done to achieve what they've achieved. And it's very true. Like many, many, many white people have worked incredibly hard and overcome horrible circumstances, right? White people have a lot of problems, you know? Like there are, you know, people grow up in absolute poverty with addiction, with violence, with all kinds of trauma. And so for someone who has had to overcome a lot and you say, well, you have white privilege, they're like, the fuck I do.

Like, you don't know my childhood, right? And even if they haven't grown up with extreme trauma, still there's an insinuation in the same way that black people still are often told that they got into the college that they got into because of affirmative action, right? People who, you know, there's a, you know, there's a sense for people that there's, I don't have white privilege. I did this all on my own. And you may have worked really hard, but guarantee your skin color has gotten you. things that it otherwise wouldn't have. Yeah, that's very well put because I, you know, that's, yeah, it's, that's, it's, that's, it's, it's just so true. It's just the, the bigger, the, just, you know, the bigger scope of it all, you know,

just the privilege that you have for being a white human. That's it. Simple. The, you know, there's like the bootstraps metaphor that people love to trot out still, right? Which like, makes no sense. But like, you know, anybody, anybody, it's the American dream is colorblind. Anybody can pull themselves up by their bootstraps. And it's like, well, you had to have the boots in the first place to do that, you know? And if the store that sold the boots wouldn't let you in, or it wasn't in your neighborhood, or you couldn't get the job to make the money to buy the boots, or you just inherited your boots from your grandparents who owned boots, like, you know, that doesn't, it's not, not everybody gets the boots in the first place.

And so we can all work hard, and we can acknowledge the work that we've done on our lives to achieve what we've achieved, but we can still accept the reality of what our skin color affords us i get emotional talking about you know women of color because it's just like an additive it's you know you not only are you female but you're a person of color and female and um there's a i think you know it's like i was having a debate with someone the other day or wasn't a debate it was a argument and i was infuriated and i was like we're doing it was the all lives matter versus Black Lives Matter conversation. And I said, that's like you telling me women's right to vote.

And you looking at me saying it's everyone's right to vote. It is interesting right now. Like this thing today on Instagram with all of these 46 white women giving over their platforms to black women to lift up their voices. It's hard for me to imagine 46 white men doing that. And I want to say that I'm really seeing the people I'm seeing. And this is also because I'm mostly engaged with women in my work and my life. But I'm not seeing as many white men.

So, Oliver, I appreciate you. You know, but I really am seeing women come to this conversation with more vulnerability and willingness. And I believe that it's also, you know, that in a lot of ways, white men have a lot more to lose in these conversations. Yeah, because, you know, you have your extra patriarchal power. Yeah. Yeah. It feels like the white man's voice is very guarded right now. It's very specific and it's not really engaging in dialogue. It's more, you know. Well, it's well actually, as you know, statistically, it's authoritative when I think that women are approaching the emotional side of the conversation about race with more vulnerability. And, you know, and so I mean, I think facts are important as well. But, but this is. is really emotional work. And so it'd be good to see more men getting, getting sticky and funky and vulnerable

with their whiteness, as well as their patriarchal power. Kate, what are the things you talked about posting? I liked this. You talked about how we should be, you know, it's one thing to do reposts and it's another thing to be like showing your work. Yeah. So I get a lot of, I'm getting a lot of questions. right now, and I have the past week from white people, almost all women, who really want to know they're a little bit paralyzed by, how do I post? What do I post on social media? I want to show my support. I want to show that I'm an ally or I support Black Lives Matter or that I want to be doing this work, but I don't want to get it wrong. You know, and so I guess my suggestion has been to write that. You know, I think there's a difference when it comes to posting and sharing on social media. There's a lot of memes out there. There's a lot of content that other people kind of made that you can post.

been a lot of it's great. But pair that or front load that with a post from your vulnerable self about why this is meaningful to you. You know, a post that says like, this is hard for me. I'm worried I will get it wrong. I don't want to mess up, but I accept that I will. And here's what I care about. And here's what I want to say. And then, you know, meme away. But like, and so when I say, show your work, and this is something to come out and I have been talking, about, again, a lot of people are buying the books, saying they're going to watch the movie, they want to do the work. And the way to sustain this is to make sure people are showing their work. It's like, I keep saying, like, when my kid has to explain in his math homework, why two

times 10 is 20, he has like write a paragraph about why it's the case. You know, like we have to, you know, but we have to show our work. So don't just read the book. How do you follow up, either in social or in conversations with people saying, you know what? I watched 13th. Like, I didn't know this, this, and this. Like, here's what I'm thinking about now. Here's the connections I'm making. You know, it's like we need people to be doing like white book reports.

Like, okay, I read Iber Mexican v. books, so you want to be an anti-racist. Here's what I'm doing now. So showing your work instead of just doing a single post about it. And I think the same goes for all these businesses that have been posting, giving their solidarity statement it is on them now to consistently show not every day it doesn't have to be constant how do you show in a sustained way um and be transparent with your processes um yeah i love that because follow through is key with all of this you know voice voices get loud but then they die down it's it's it's important to this is a big follow through moment and i love that idea

show yeah and so many people i think you know are learning these things i know I am. I know there's things that in the past when I look at that I've done that I go, oh my God, I had no idea, you know, because I like Ollie said, like I never, I never took the time to say, oh, who's the CEO of this company? Like, who founded this, you know? And, and like those are the kinds of things that I think are amazing right now where, where people in my position could make huge impact in big business by making them accountable and hopefully shifting. the way that they donate. And here's the thing, Kate, I want to say, too,

because you mentioned that, like, that there's stuff that you're doing on a daily basis, right? I think when we talk about showing your work, like, that's, you know, hashtag, it's on social media. But we don't need to show everything we do, right? And so a lot of people have come to me and asked, too, like, I really, how do I make sure that, like, my black friends and colleagues know that I support them,

that I'm doing this work? And my answer is, people will know when they see you doing it. You know, it is action versus words. So your social media posts are great. But people in your community, whether it's your colleagues, your friends, whoever, people will trust you and they'll know that you support them when they see you out there doing the work. So sometimes we do feel anxious and we want to make sure everybody sees it. But those people that you work with and those companies, they will see you modeling that.

That will have an impact. It might not be visible to everybody, but people will see it. I know we're talking about big things and big business, and that's all amazing stuff. But, you know, the small stuff is important, too, you know, because there's a, there's stepping stones, you know, to build up to something. There's, they're starting the jog to build to the sprint to build to sort of, you know, there's momentum that can happen within yourself. And, you know, that's, you know, there's little, little victories, you know, that I can have personally that will just continue to build my. confidence in speaking out, speaking my truth. One thing to keep in mind with that, too, though, in this moment is that for a lot of people

of color, I'd say black women in particular, who have not been feeling heard and who've been trying to talk for a long time, it's challenging right now to suddenly have all of these white people who are like, I want to listen. I get it now. I'm here to learn. I want to listen. I think for me, that's why I'm wanting to have these conversations with white people because I get that there's this desire to learn, but we also do have to accept that there are going to be people, not everyone at all, but there might be people on your feed or in your community who are like, no, not right now. Like, I've been talking. You haven't been listening. Like, not right away, you know, or go, or go, great, you want to learn. Good. Go learn. Go learn somewhere else.

Yeah. And then come talk to me. So I think there's a little bit of like grace to move with. And like, you know, just it's going to take some, again, all these things that none of us want to be, none of us want to be rejected. And it can feel like, but I'm coming to you with good intentions, you know, so but we have to keep in mind the harm that's been done for so long as we have refused to listen. There's centuries and decades of beautiful literature and film and music and there's novels and there's poetry and there's plays and there's nonfiction books that just tell us all the stuff that we need to know. So, you know, there's definitely people to be listening to on social media, paying attention to learning from. But there's, it's like it is all out there for us. Well, this was incredibly overdue for Oliver and I. We've been sort of like these last couple weeks sort of trying to figure out, you know, the people that we really wanted to talk to about these questions that we had or help us.

And thank you. But I also just want to thank W. Kamau Bell for for mentioning your name because I thank him too. It's maybe very busy this past week. It's great. It's really awesome. And I really heard him when he was talking about like, you know, I'm going to let you talk to Kate about these things. And I so, you know, thanks to W. Kamau for introducing us to you. And yeah, this was a really great conversation. All right. Well, thank you so much. This was amazing. Thank you so much. Thanks for being open to this. You did. It's great work. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. sibling revelry is executive produced by kate hudson olivera hudson and simsarna

supervising producer is alison bresden editor is josh windish music by mark hudson a.k.a. Uncle Martin Do you want to hear the secrets of psychopaths, murderers, sex offenders? In this episode, I offer... from them. I'm Dr. Leslie, forensic psychologist. This is a podcast where I cut through the noise with real talk. When you were described to me as a forensic psychologist, I was like snooze. We ended up talking for hours and I was like, this girl is my best friend. Let's talk about safety and strategies to protect yourself and your loved ones. Listen to intentionally

disturbing on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Betrayal Weekly is back for season two with brand new stories. The detective comes driving up fast and just like screeches right in the parking lot. I swear I'm not crazy, but I think he poisoned me. I feel trapped. My breathing changes. I realize, wow, like he is not a mentor. He's pretty much a monster. But these aren't just stories of destruction.

They're stories of survival. I'm going to tell my story and I'm going to hold my head up. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Bridget Armstrong, host of the new podcast, The Curse of America's Next Top Model. I've been investigating the real story behind that iconic show. I ended up having anorexia issues, bulimia issues,

by talking to the models, the producers, and the people who profited from it all. We basically sold our souls, and they got rich. If you were so rooting for her and saw her drowning, what did you help her? Listen to the curse of America. America's next top model on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast.