Sibling Revelry with Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson - The Duplass Brothers

Episode Date: February 24, 2021

Jay and Mark Duplass sit down with Kate and Oliver on this week's episode. They open up about their close bond throughout the years - from sharing a twin bed to the challenges of working together. They also discuss their love of storytelling, growing up in New Orleans, the process of writing their book, and Oliver's petition to become the third Duplass brother.Executive Producers: Kate Hudson and Oliver HudsonProduced by Allison BresnickEdited by Josh WindischMusic by Mark HudsonThis show is powered by Simplecast.This episode is sponsored by Zack’s Mighty Tortilla Chips, Each & Every, and Helix.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an IHeart podcast. September is a great time to travel, especially because it's my birthday in September, especially internationally. Because in the past, we've stayed in some pretty awesome Airbnbs in Europe. Did we've one in France, we've one in Greece,

we've actually won in Italy a couple of years ago. Anyway, it just made our trip feel extra special. So if you're heading out this month, consider hosting your home on Airbnb with the co-host feature you can hire someone local to help manage everything. Find a co-host at Airbnb.ca slash host. I'm Jorge Ramos. And I'm Paola Ramos.

Together we're launching The Moment, a new podcast about what it means to live through a time, as uncertain as this one. We sit down with politicians, artists, and activists to bring you death and analysis from a unique Latino perspective. The Moment is a space for the conversations we've been having us father and daughter for years. Listen to The Moment with Jorge Ramos and Paola Ramos

on the IHeart Radio app, podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Introducing IVF Disrupted, the Kind Body Story, a podcast about a company that promised to revolutionize fertility care. It grew like a tech startup. While Kind Body did help women start families, it also left behind a stream of disillusioned and angry patients. You think you're finally like in the right hands.

You're just not. Listen to IVF Disrupted, the Kind Body Story on the IHeart Radio app, Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Kate Hudson. And my name is Oliver Hudson. We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationship. And what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling rivalry.

No, no. Sibling rivalry. Don't do that with your mouth. Sibling Reveory That's good Oliver Yes

I loved this interview so much You got off We got off this interview And you were like I'm so inspired You were so inspired You wanted to like Go into the desert

And make some weird avant-garde movie About nothing That's how inspired You just wanted to like, you wanted to be a Duplas brother. I did. I wish that I was a part of, I wish I was the third brother, you know. I just, very cool, very, very cool guys.

But it was interesting. One of the most unique, I think, interviews that we've had as far as siblings go, because there was a codependency that you will listen to. I don't want to spoil anything. but it was it was so deep that they had to do something about it you know there had to be a breakup of yeah i mean this is what their book is about which it's it's um like brothers and it's available right now in paperback but it's almost i said it it's like a cosmic almost a multiple lifetime type connection that's so deep that it took them this lifetime and for those people who aren't into that

that's okay, but it kind of is a good kind of way to talk about how tight and how close they are and how they've had to deconstruct their relationship a little bit and re kind of look at like their dependencies on each other. It's so interesting. I loved it. And they're so smart and fun. They're smart and talented. They're talented actors and filmmakers and producers and they're just talented people.

But I don't know. I just, I love their openness and I loved getting to know them like that. I love that they're constantly seeking new ways to tell stories and that that is really truly like a deep passion for them is to be storytellers. And like you said, it was inspiring to me. And then you left and you were like, I wish those were my siblings. No, I do. I'm actually petitioning to to actually become part of the family. I have a few calls in. And they also have their HBO documentary, which we talked about, which we've been getting into called The Lady and the Dale. And that's out. Awesome, awesome story. They find these very cool stories. Oh, what an amazing woman.

Like this whole, the history of this woman and the story is so awesome. And we won't, again, ruin it for anybody. But definitely check that out. That's on HBO. Yeah. Well, I hope you guys enjoy this. This is the Duplas Brothers.

Hey, guys. How's it going? What's happening? I feel like we know you guys and we don't really know you. I don't know you at all. You should. I know you. You should get to know us.

You work with Meredith. You guys both worked with our other, with our sister-in-law, our cousins on Wild Wild Country. Yeah. I mean... It's kind of weird. It's kind of weird. Well, I've been watching. I'm on second season of Search Party, so you're all up in my grill.

Oh, oh, so that's when he... Oh, my God. Dude, that show is so incredible. It's so great. It's so fucking good, and everyone is so good. I can't even believe it. It's so good. Your character, though, is... It's... I'm not just jerking you off here because you're on our show, but, like, you are so fucking good in this. You walk this line.

of femininity, masculinity, you're sort of all of it. You know, we don't know where you stand. And it's just the perfect interpretation or characterization of one of these asshole directors who's just... Thank you. So fucking. You guys, I'm so happy you came on our podcast.

So let's like jump right into it. Usually we're like... Come on. Let's do it. Have you guys ever made out? Ali, this is... This is not a problem. Only off camera.

Okay. So where were you guys born? Metri, Louisiana, which is, for those of you who have been to New Orleans, it's like five miles outside of the city, the suburb right next to the danger. And I think it was, you know, it was like one of those places that developed in the 70s with the spread of the middle class. And it felt very safe and it felt very cozy. And we could ride our bikes around. Super white flight, by the way. Yeah, super white flight, yeah.

White flight TM trademarked, for sure. Particularly in New Orleans. And it was like pretty boring, you know? Like we didn't have much going on and our parents just let us do our own thing there. Very unsupervised, right? Yeah, yeah. And we didn't have like any sort of like, I mean, just different than what I imagine your guys was. Was it circumstantially?

unsupervised? You know what I mean? Were your parents working? We were, we were surprisingly unsupervised as well. Ours was more just like, it's safe here, so we're just going to go let them do their thing, you know? And what happened to us is like, our parents were not like creatives or anything like that. There was no curation of like, oh, let's usher in a life of the arts for our boys. It was just like, well, we're busy so you guys just go run around and and we never really i think thought that we could actually have a life in the arts or any kind of career in the arts legitimately because there was just no there were no models for that around us you know but i i think that once we moved to austin where where jay went to college and i followed him there that's where we started to kind of be like

oh i think there there's a way we might be able to but you guys were making movies and stuff as kids, right? I mean, you were screwing around, messing around with video camera. We were just like blindly kind of creative and, you know, but to be clear, our movies were not prophetic of any future potential goodness at all.

Like, you would not want to go back and watch these movies. They were really bad. But we did lots of creative stuff. I mean, we really did have a lot of flexibility. And we used to make stained glass with Marty Graw B. I'm sure we inhaled toxic fumes and we just, and we had to make up a bunch of shit.

Like, it's interesting. I feel like our parents grew up super, super poor. So we just didn't, we weren't poor at all, but we just didn't, we didn't grow up in a culture of buying things at all. Like there was nothing to be bought or acquired at all. If we wanted to do something, it wasn't like our parents, like, this is really good. We should support Mark and Jay in their endeavor. and let's get them a four track so that they can record their music. It was like, great, figure it out.

And so, like, Jay and I were just like these weird little cave dudes, and we were just making all these things out of nothing. And I think it was weirdly good for us because it kind of taught us how to scrap, and it kind of built this, like, mentality we had along the way. Yeah, we were into making money as kids, actually. We would set up popsicle stands in New Orleans and, like, sell popsicles for a profit.

I mean, we would make money was big for us. us. Oliver loved to make money. Oh my God, I love to make money. I still do. That's why I'll do anything. What did you do? Why do you think he's doing this podcast? What other possible reason? You couldn't be more spot on. Listen, the, the, the, the, Oliver, there used to be a big golf tournament by our house. There still is at Riv. Right. And Oliver used to you to basically use moms. Well, John's, across the street, my best friend was John. And then of, of, of, of, our house so they used their driveway and our driveway and use the vanigan and basically shuttle people shuttled people so and we were 15 by the way and let people park in that house

did not have a license and so we would they would park way up the street and so we would just shuttle people for a dollar each and we made coin I mean we made a lot of money I mean it was great and then they and then they so we sold fake IDs You know, I did, I tried to do everything to try to make a little more money. He tried the lemonade stand. It just wasn't enough for it. No, it was spiked lemonade. Yeah, the fake IDs racket, we made some, we made those.

We would always, Mark, I was just talking with somebody about this, but even in our early days in Austin, we always made fake passes to South by Southwest. $200 was like, there's no fucking way. in a million years. You just can't do it and it's just like we're not hurting anybody we're just gonna like hang out in the back and be nervous the whole movie

you know what I mean I mean it wasn't didn't make it fun but like we did get in to see that shit but yeah we did we were kind of schemers and yeah we would just do shit tons of chores we were kind of kids who were like what can I do for more

money and our parents were not generous with it at all like if you washed windows for like an hour you would make like a dollar you know maybe maybe like 50 cents they were like pretty tight with all of it so we're just kind of came up did you know why you wanted money meaning like did you know what you wanted to spend it on are you just like yeah they wanted I just want money kind of it was different times yeah different times yeah it started as just money because it was power and we didn't have stuff and we definitely did have some neighbors who had

stuff and we didn't have much stuff but yeah later on when we started making music and stuff it was to buy four tracks and to buy guitars and yeah uh we you know we would go to pawn shops and even when you go to a pawn shop it was just like the mentality is like don't make mom wait too long like know what the fuck you want we would call the music shop when we're 10 years old and discuss Yeah. Try and make deals to discuss in fucking detail what the snare was like and what the shit was like so that when you showed up with genuinely sometimes piles of fives and ones, we would go in and make a transaction happen. Which is all to say, they did a really good job raising us to be resourceful by robbing us of this stuff. And we have very quickly turned around and spoiled a shit out of our children. But we can't stop doing it. No.

And we don't know what or how. Do you want? What do you want, honey? What do you need, sweetheart? How can I support you? What are your feelings? Tell me all of them so I can save it all. And not equip you with any of the skills to deal with the real world.

It's funny you bring that up because I was going to ask that question, which is, you know, now you have your kids. I mean, those values are still deep in you. We talk about this all the time. You must instill that to some extent, no? I mean, even though they get more. more but is that i think there's it's a half and half thing for me in my household and it's not dissimilar with jay i mean we're very similar in this regard it's like there's the survivor's guilt mentality of we we felt like we worked really really hard to break in as artists and it kind

of almost killed us emotionally spiritually physically so when we see our kids exhibiting some of the behavior that they might want to go on this track we want to make that road easier on them we want to support them because we don't want them to suffer. It's just something I cannot curb in myself because I love them and they're my children. But at the same time, my brain is telling me, stop it. You're robbing them of the necessary skill sets you developed on this journey. Stop it, stop it, stop it. Did you guys parent each other? Did you guys parent each other? I'm just curious because Mark and I feel like in retrospect, we realized that we parented each other quite a bit along the way. Like, we really kind of worked on that for each other.

That's an interesting question, though, if you think about it. Maybe unconsciously, unconscious parenting. That could be our new book. You can make a lot of money on that book, Oliver. Thanks. Yeah, yeah. If you guys want in, let me know. You can sell that book on the title alone.

Yeah, you're good. Oh, my God. Yes. But when you think about it, like, when I, I, have my first, like, real heartbreak. Yes. It was you. In the big times I was there and then you were there for when I constantly fall down.

It was different, though. I mean, we were off doing our own things for the most part. I mean, you guys were seemed to be like this. Yeah, you guys were like, we were lockstep for 40 years. You were sleeping in the same twin bed. This is what I read. And I'm like, guys. It's real.

Yeah. It sounds like we made that up. Okay, but can I, let's talk about this for a second. Like, was there another bed right next to the, was there two twins? Yeah. We each had our own rooms. Here's the truth, guys. We each had our own bedroom.

I had a full-sized bed. Jay had two twin beds, and we slept in one of Jay's twin beds. I don't know if this is like cute or super weird. How old though? You were like eight and 12 or. I mean, from younger than that and onward, you know. But still, it lasted for a while. I probably until I was like 11.

Do you remember the moment where it was like, hey, buddy, so I'm not going to sleep in here tonight. And we need to figure out a different sleeping arrangement. Was there that? No consciousness whatsoever on my part. How about you, Mark? I don't know. I mean, honestly, that sounds so logical when you say that. And I can't imagine how that didn't come up.

But if I'm being totally honest, Jay and I were just very strange and very different in the way that we were. related. And I attribute most of this to Jay being someone who was four years older than me, who was willing not only to hang out with me, but actually willing to relate to me and validate me as I was. And that contributed to this weird little village that we were a village of two people. And every little brother wants to hang out with the older brother, of course. But the older brother doesn't want to do that with the little brother. So that's what, that's what keeps it from happening. In our village, we had the anomaly of Jay willing to do this thing. And so that's what kept us going for so long. And then what prevented it from shifting, like you're talking about

Oliver, is at a certain point, our personality, our taste levels have always been exactly the same. What we like, what we enjoy, what we want to make, what we want to see. But our personality started to diverge a little bit. And I started to devourge. it's more like brash, confident, I'll just barrel forth through the world and hit walls and whatever happens happens. And Jay, who was more intelligent and more mature, started to see the world as a dangerous place that we should be nervous about. And that brought his age level down a little bit, my age level up so we can get closer there. And then when Jay went to college, when he was 18 and I was 14, everything shifted in our dynamic because he missed home

and he kind of had close to an emotional breakdown being away from our support system. And at that point, he went from being the leader in our village and basically my personal God to meeting me for the first time. And I was just dumb and confident enough at 14, basically like you, Oliver, driving the van around, like, I got this, you know, to buoy him, you know? And then I became kind of an equal at that point. And through the years, that dynamic has, were on this flowing little seesaw of like, who's going to be the older brother? Who's going to be the big brother? And that's, I think, why we stayed so close and how we stayed so connected.

Did you have outside friends growing up, or was it just you too? Yeah, we did. We did. We did. Yeah. Yeah. And we had one common friend across the street who was right in between us in age, and that was pretty incredible.

Like we, but we tried to, I don't know, what was interesting is we would, I don't know, we subconsciously kind of weeded out the friends who weren't willing to hang out with both of us a lot. I mean, there were definitely times where I was in high school and Mark was in junior high where, you know, the age gap shows up much bigger. Yep. And so at that time, I wasn't like socializing with Mark, you know what I mean? But I was just like brooding in a corner wanting to murder him and all of his friends at that time. It was fine. I got him back. So.

But yeah, I mean, we always carved out that time for each other. And we always knew that that was the sacred relationship on some level. And Mark was saying, too, when I was in Austin and he was still in New Orleans, it was interesting. I mean, Mark was so advanced for his age. I was flying home to New Orleans because I did miss it. And it is culturally so unusual and so unique that it was very hard for me to adjust out of it. It's like a very old, old world place. And Austin is actually a very, very new world place. But as we started to realize like how special Austin was, it kind of shifted. And then we started flying Mark out to Austin on like long weekends and stuff. And so Mark became a part of my college experience super early.

And like Mark said, I mean, we did grow up kind of, we kind of regard ourselves as like cavemen. I don't know. I was just very young for my age. I weighed like 120 pounds in college. Like dating was like kind of not possible for me. And I was like more like the girls that, I was like the boys that the girls were babysitting more than they wanted to date early on. We were just like these two high school looking kids running around Austin, Texas, starting to figure out what a new world might have to offer us. And, you know, like Mark said, that around that time, we did start to see people like Richard Linklater and Robert Rodriguez hanging out around Austin.

And that's when it started to occur to us that, oh, people who look like us who wear jeans and t-shirts can also make movies. And Slacker and El Mariachi were $20,000. That was still way, way more than we could ever think about spending on anything. but it was like a dollar yeah it was a dollar amount where we were like this this is a thing and and the DIY art making scene in Austin beyond just even filmmaking just music and people making art and distributing it on their front lawn was like sort of the ethic of that town at that time kind of still is was that was that was that was huge for us yeah and I think it made us double down on our brotherhood and our bond at that moment of like we're already close we already share the same

taste now we're going to try to migrate out of our existing world which has no connection to the arts or anything and try to make it in an industry which is essentially impossible by all accounts so we we're got to stick together even more closely Zach's mighty tortilla chips I do these calls with some of these people the founders just to talk about stuff and I actually was in the desert and talked to this guy Zach

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There's a codependency that's just, yes, it works for us, but I would never, I would never say to two brothers, this is how you should go down the day. Yeah, yeah, 100%. I mean, we've talked about it so much. I mean, we, a big part of that journey for us was actually in the writing of our book. And we talked about really, what does it mean to have been this close, what it has done for us and and how frankly odd it was to be that close into our 30s and our 40s and and and the the first part the first part of it was really you know and I'm not sure how much of this you guys have experienced but when you migrate from your immediate family which is your siblings and your parents to the new immediate family which is your spouse and your children and that was really

confusing for us and difficult and we just felt so many times you know just being like well yeah it's me and jay and the bunk bed wait whoa whoa wait no this is my wife and my children and and they do integrate and it feels normal sometimes but then it sometimes it doesn't and i think that when jay and i were making our tv show togetherness for hbo it really was sort of like the zenith of our brotherhood as us being close personally, us working together 14 hours a day, side by side in a chair, and also us building our new immediate families. We both had really young kids. We were just like in the shit on every possible level. And it was during that time when things really started to shift for us about like something's going to have to give here.

everything that we are giving each other in our creative and our personal lives there's not enough life force stuff to give that to each other to give that to our wives to our children to our work yeah and something's got to give how are we going to do this and it was heartbreaking and it took us years to figure that out and come through that wow and how did you come to terms with that and how did you some sort of i guess you don't compartmentalize but you have to have to free up energy and space for the different relationships that you have in your life. And you guys took up so much of that energy and space. How did you parcel that out? Uncomfortably. Yeah. I mean, I think a big part, I mean, in retrospect, we kind of now see it

as a bit of like a conscious uncoupling on some level. You know, it's like a healthy divorce on some level but you know i think it along with everything mark said too it's like we're middle-aged men now too and our tastes are diverging a little bit and we are not we don't we're allowed for that space we almost we allowed for it for a while yeah we don't because we we were like existing in this sort of what i call like an immigrant mentality of like we have no business being here we could be killed at any moment you know it's like that's how our grandparents grew up we they had three brothers and they lived in three row houses next to each other in New Orleans and they all owned you're fortify you know yeah you fortify you're scared to be in this business so we fortified you know

and so we were also feeling those urges too and so it took us a while to kind of come around to this idea that as filmmakers too that we i love the stuff that mark does and and he loves the stuff that i do but that we're also like have evolved to be leaders in our own way and for us to evolve as artists and people, it's like you kind of almost need to have your own individual reaction to something as it unfolds. You know, like you have to own something as an actor. It's just like, in the end, it's on you.

It's on your heart. It's on your spirit. And it needs to be so that the mystery and the surprise can unfold in the right way. Part of that we had to figure out and to figure out how we can still support each other in doing that. You know, and we're lucky to have this company and these sort of family members like Mel Eslin, this incredible woman who runs their company, who kind of holds space for us and hold space for the unfolding of how it's going to be and how I'm going to help Mark

with his stuff and how he's going to help me with mine, but to not have to be in lockstep so that we're just, honestly, just limited in terms of how we can evolve as like people and as filmmakers. I don't know how spiritual you guys are, but it sounds. to me I'm listening and it sounds to me like you guys have some past life karmic ties and connections yeah it's deeper than just like one lifetime it's like whatever it is that is those times where you guys have to really concentrate on individuating it's it's bigger than even just this one life experience that you've had yeah it's

bigger than being brothers it's bigger than making art it's more like I need mom to figure out who I am yeah and what it is that I'm doing here and his existence his and his input in my life is at a hundred percent critical to what it is that we're doing here on the planet because I you know you felt it in the last comment I mean I feel like we're both moving more towards like what the fuck are we doing here and where is all this leading and art is is a part of that. And it's become cool.

It's a great expression of that. That's such a fun part of it. But staying on that theme, you know, of whether this was cosmic intervention or not, you know, going back. It's all cosmic intervention. I know.

It's all cosmic. But going back, why do you think. I love this moment that's happening right here. I'm loving this living stuff. It's my favorite stuff. My favorite stuff. There was a pause,

you guys, for Kate and Oliver here that was pregnant, if you will. I'll just put that in. It's a wonderful sibling moment. I loved it. But why do you think this happened? How did this happen?

Could you trace it back to being, you know, not really parented or not parented, but having freedom? Or why did you guys get like this? I feel like it's implanted in the seeds of who we are as human beings because none of it really makes that much sense to us. our obsession with each other and our a hundred it feels like when you see two planets that are sort of revolving around each other for like eons and eons and you're like what the fuck that's what it feels like and it's i mean to be completely completely honest as as as much as mark and i have

similar taste we're very different in a lot of ways like incredibly different we're incredibly similar in other ways but we're people who know us really well start to realize we're very different animals in other ways and that's a whole other conversation about how we feel that we were essentially one being that was working together for the first 40 years. We're one entity and we're expressing different parts of one entity. And that's truly how we functioned. And that's also why our girlfriend relationships early in life were not successful. Well, that's I wanted to get to. I have to say like, I know. I was thinking like, what would it be like dating? Oh my God. one of you guys.

Crazy. I'll tell you, I'll tell you what it was like. It's basically like, just assume that you are, you have decided to come into a threesome. And you come in there and you're very, very excited.

And then about three minutes into it, you realize like, they actually just don't want you there. And they just start having all the great sex without you. They're just using you to fuck each other. That's really what happened on an, on an emotional and spiritual level. what am I doing here exactly what am i even doing here but what about what about your current wives i mean

did they have to go through anything to finally accept oh i'm sure you know that this is who you guys were i mean you should get them both on here and let them tell their side of the last thing i want to do is tell that and but yeah there were you know immense growing pains and that was all part of what jay was talking about with that sort of this is so unique conscious on uncoupling but i think that jay you really hit on something with that sort of the DNA of we came in baked to be in each other's orbit and just not normal the way that normal siblings are for whatever reason. And I remember distinctly being in eighth grade at the height of my like most vapid, pubescent, hormone-filled, stupid North American

mailness, like Beavis and Butthead obsessed. I love Beavis and I had to read Wuthering Heights for school. And I read Wuthering Heights. And I'm like, I don't want to read. This is like the furthest thing. And the relationship between Heathcliff and Catherine and how they were with each other, I was riveted by it. And I was like, this is me and Jay.

Wow. Okay. I recognized it immediately. Ollie has no idea what you're talking about. He's never red withering. He is me. I am him. And I was like, it's kind of weird that I'm thinking about my brother during this.

but like it's actually really beautiful I was just saying that Oliver has no idea what you're talking about because of course I have Dude, Withering Heights is my favorite book Willering Heights Oliver's trying to pretend like he really understand

I read I read You're a great reader books Yeah, but you're just jealous of my intellect My natural intellect It's true It's so true.

What about your parents in respect to your guys's relationship? Do they ever feel left out? No, I think they're just, they are very excited about it. They loved it. They love it. And they have, they moved to L.A. like eight years ago. I mean, you know, these are people who never lived more than two miles from where they grew up in New Orleans, very, you know, anchored old worlds.

people but I think they in a weird way they loved movies they came from very poor place and their whole mission was like we're going to make some motherfucking money that's what that's their whole thing that was their whole world our dad went to law school and was like I'm going to move us up a class and he buried his head down and he did it you know and he brought us to the middle class and he was able to get me and jay through school and college without any debt and then there were able to give us like $10,000 in our late 20s to make our first feature film. And that's what they wanted to do for us. And so they're really, they're incredibly supportive from a, I would say, logistical

perspective. And I don't want to say materialistic, but just the elements that were required to get us there. Yeah. It's like you didn't get the bike, but you got the education. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Dude. We got all that stuff.

Yeah. That's so amazing. Are you guys in a breakup phase now? Is this, I'm feeling like, you know, like you've recognized that this is a little crazy and now you're learning how to be a part. Are you breaking up? We're in the post-breakup phase or the post-conscious uncoupling phase, which is I think that, you know, after we made our show Togetherness,

we sort of realized that this is going to be hard to sustain. And when Togetherness got canceled after the second season, we both sort of found ourselves in this very unique, place of being kind of relieved, as much as it was a dream to make that show, and enjoying that space and a little scared of it. And then I think what happened was we had to have a more conscious conversation about where do we go from here, you know, what's it going to be? And Jay did a really good job of taking leadership there. I think that, you know, if I'm being totally honest, I was very scared to make that change. I was used to the fortification of us.

I love my brother. I love our collaboration. I had already stepped out of our collaboration a little bit. I was already making a lot of movies as an actor with other collaborators. So I was actually already scratching a little bit of that itch where Jay hadn't done as much of that yet. And he really was able to identify that before I was able to see some of the unhealthiness of what we were needing outside of just this bond. And, and then there was some timing involved, to be perfectly honest with you, this is like less, maybe less interesting, but, but it's true in that, like, you know, we're, we've made a lot of art about white men and their feelings for each other through the years. And it sort of became a time of, do we need to

keep making this right now? And what could we do with our platform that might be a little different than that and supporting other voices and other kinds of stories. So the bifurcation of that unilateral voice into Jay and I going off and collaborating with other people using the platform to support their stories. That also helps with our like survivor's guilt of like giving other people their first chance in the industry. So a lot of things kind of conspired to make it the right time. And so I think that that was more of what you're sensing Oliver. That was more like two or three years ago, you know. And I think we've found more pieced with that now. And I think now it's now is sort of like the time of, all right, well, we've had a little more of that space.

And if anything, the last couple of conversations like Jay's out in Pittsburgh right now shooting this show. And I'm back in L.A. shooting on the morning show. And we have a lot of space. We're finding our conversation starting to slightly drift towards, oh, I have this idea. Yeah, you're also doing, you know, you're both acting a lot in different things. So I would think that that in itself, it's not like you're going to do, you know, a three-week movie. Morning show is like six months and with COVID, probably like eight months. Yeah, exactly.

I'm jealous. I wish I was like you guys. I wish I was like more like you guys. Like in what way? Just so many ways. I don't know. Oh, what do you mean? You're so... You guys seem amazing. What are you talking about? No, I'm not saying our relationship, but I'm just saying you guys are like so cool. And you've got this great... You've got this great.

We're so not cool. I don't feel that way at all. I don't feel cool. You are. You've got this great story. You do things that you love. You're inspired and you're also inspirational. And you've worked your ass off.

And it's such a unique voice that you guys have brought. Let me say something because I think this is important. This is a big thing that we learned, not just in making our art. Because I think the best thing that we get back when we make a movie is somebody comes up and they say, hey I feel less alone because our art is really a lot about struggle and loneliness and and intimacy and all that stuff it's so nice for you to say that but I just want to be honest and just say that like I'm in Pittsburgh for three months trapped in a frozen tundra

it feel like I'm in a federal prison in a Hyatt house up here I feel sad and lonely and also I feel confused about all this stuff still it's not you know when we have these talks, it's nice to have them because it helps you shelf up and articulate in your mind what's happening, right? But we're really just in the middle of it. And I wonder if I'll make another piece of art with Mark and want it to be great. And there's a lot of pressure on it and there's all that stuff. And I mean, honestly, like our main goal right now is to like be friends. Yeah. That's our main goal because, you know, we have, I think the scariest thing, and I think we caught it at a good time, is that our immigrant mentality and making so much art and fighting so hard to break into this kind of impossible world, as Mark would say, and being one being is like, we're both kind of ruthless like immigrants can be, and we were kind of ruthless with each other in a full agreement. I mean, in an absolute full agreement. But I think part of what we're doing now, too, is saying that we're not willing to cannibalize our brotherhood and our friendship and our history just to make a piece of art so that it can be successful or so that we can eat food or like do our dreams and stuff.

We're kind of reorienting to say that how do we be brothers again and how do we do it without being lockstep in like a piece of art that feels like it's trying to kill you at all times. it's a weird reorientation and it's like we don't have any more rules anymore and we're also like old and shit and there's a pandemic going on. So I just wanted to say that like we haven't figured out a goddamn thing. It's a very good point.

Jay and I have unfortunately gotten good at the art of distilling these feelings and saying them in multisyllabic ways that make us sound like we've got them more under control than we do, but we don't. yeah no I think you wrote I was just reading some of the things that you guys wrote and one of them is the art of compromise as one of the hardest things we've had to learn over the years so it's not like all of the relationship or the power of the relationship was like oh you know what I mean you're constantly having well actually that's a good question like when there is a moment where you do disagree in an artistic way how do you get through that and and do you ever not I mean meaning like do we have to we How do you? Who wins? It's a great question. And it's something that we have nuanced a lot through the years. The way we traditionally have dealt with it is that we have this belief, um, right or

wrong that no matter how passionate one or the other person might be about their perspective, um, there's a good chance that that person is wrong. And the reason we feel that way is because coming up making art the way we did, we made so much bad art that our egos, we're beaten out of us. And we just know that, like, as convinced as you are that you are right, you have a really good chance that you are wrong. So what we try to do is just be objective about it. And so Jay, Jay will have a thing he wants to do and I'll have a thing I want to do.

And then we look at each other. And one of us will get the sense that the other one is a little bit more passionate about it, a little bit more stuck on it, or maybe just has a little bit better of a chance of being right about it. And that person usually gets the chance to win there. And we know that in the history of our relationship, It will totally even out and go the other way at some point. And then if we can't agree, like if we're on a scene we're shooting, we'll shoot both options

and we'll see what happens. But the core of it is that we don't often get gridlocked because we, being that lockstep group of people that we used to be, there is this essential belief that this person, my partner has just as good of a chance of being right as I do, is convinced as I am that I am right because we just don't know art is a great mystery. What about jealousy? Yeah. You know, I...

I'm not jealous. Plenty. No, me either. No, I'm not jealous at all. I mean, it has played a weird part in our relationship and it came out in different forms than I expect it. You know, there's the obvious jealous stuff of just like, you know, you know, you know, You know, well, I wish Amanda Pete had invited me to go to Pittsburgh to do that show. That sounded cool.

Did she like Jay? Is he the better Duplas brother? Is there an empirically better Dupluss brother? Oh, God. Oh, God. Does that. And then, but, you know, for me, the other aspect of it is Jay and I discovered at some point that we had a hard time being at parties. together because we occupy a similar space in a conversation.

We have some similar jokes that we tell. We have a similar lane. Jay just did that one. He just did that bit. Yeah. People like walk away. Like it's so weird. Like they would like go around and.

And we kind of get like like grossed out by each other. Like it was really hard for me to do one of my bits in front of Jay because like he knows me so well. And it's like, I feel kind of gross and false. And also, he has a chance to do it in that conversation. And so every night, I remember one time Jay and I were like at our closest and together. It just worked together like a 12 hour a day. And we're at one of those industry awards parties.

And we saw each other from across the room. And it was like, that's my brother. I'm going to see. We both kind of looked at each other and both had, without even saying it had this knowledge and we're just like, I don't want to be with you here. And we just like walked off. You stay over there, motherfucker. Didn't even talk to each other.

You'll be over there, I'll be over here. Yeah. I'm going to dazzle this group of people and you do that shit. You do dazzle over there. Never the tween shall meet. Get the fuck off my dazzle, bitch. Oh, that's so funny. I'm not jealous.

There's envy, but then I put it back on myself. You know, even going back to how I said that, you know, I wish I was you guys. I would amend that by saying that I feel like I have untowel. talent and it and it exists sort of in your space in the in the writing and the directing and the creation in my vision I feel like I have a unique vision my unique head a unique mind but I am too content with just doing what I'm doing and then I oscillate I'm like but I but I need to do more and I I feel like I've got more to give but then I'm like but you know I'm having a beer with my kids and then I'm fucking living my life and I'm going to get in my trailer I'm

want to go out to Joshua. Right. Exactly. And I live a deathbed scenario. It's like, what am I going to remember when I'm on my deathbed? Is it going to be an award? Is it going to be this? Or is it going to be these times that I have experienced with my family? Not that you can't have both, but I do wish I had more of that work ethic, that belief in myself and not being so overwhelmed by the process. I have an idea. And then I get so overwhelmed by the finish line. that I just quit. Can I offer one thing to that end that may or may not be useful at all? This is just my projection and the place I'm coming from is the part of me that feels so

deeply compelled and is willing to put aside the fear and intimidation that you're talking about of how hard it is to get to the finish line. That is a dark place inside of me that will never be fulfilled enough by the lovely family time by the pool and by that sense of contentment that you actually already at least have some of in your life. That's what I'm looking for that I'm not sure I'm ever going to get. So I will just offer you one person's perspective of I would trade a lot of that to receive some of that contentment that you have in your DNA as well. I'm trying to get closer to where you are. So it's not necessarily a bad thing.

same i would totally agree and like i would go one step further and say that mark and i did not enjoy our lives very much at all for the first 30 years we were like when other people were out in austin enjoying music and we did it some we were at home beating the hell out of each other trying to like make a good song come out of our bodies trying to make a good script come out of our bodies and failing fucking relentlessly for decades yeah and and And the compulsion of it is also a thing that I would say is, is, like, unhealthy. I'm with you, whereas, as I wish I could have, like, sometimes I get jealous of Oliver's satisfaction of, like, being out in, in, and just kind of, like, moving to Colorado.

And I'm sitting there going, what the fuck are you do? Like, I, like, I work. She's like, what are you doing? You need to come home. I'm like, Kate, I'm, like, happy here. She goes, but what are you doing with your life? And I'm like, Kate, I love you. I love you for caring, but like, I'm pretty good right now.

And then I'm like, yeah, but I am everything that I do, it's like I can't, I have to stop myself sometimes and be like, stop moving. Stop thinking about things all the time and what you have to do and how you have to work something. And, you know. I bought this amazing book called How to Do Nothing that is all about this. And I've had it for a year. and I haven't read it yet because that's we are who we are. But I've got it. I have a similar book called The Art of Not Giving a Fuck, and I haven't read it.

Yeah, the Art of Not Giving a Fuck. I've heard of that one. I give way too many fucks. Oh, I have that literally it stares at me on my bookshop. Oh, well, that you have to read. That's like my Bible. That's a great book. Oh, that's my Bible too.

I'm giving that book to probably 20 people. I read that book and it changed my life for a good 45 minutes. Yeah, no, I know. So I went right back into my old habits. I will say, it gave me a good year. I got me a good year. Isn't it funny how much to do that? They literally get into your psyche for a certain extended period of time.

Like I'm reading Undaunted Courage, which is the Lewis and Clark book. And it's the discovery of the West, basically. And I'm so deep into this story. And now I want to, like, live primitively. I'm open fire cooking. I have a new obsession with open fire cooking now. You're going to get a week out of that, Oliver. It's going to be great.

Or at least another excuse to not be working. Or I'm just going to go west. I'm just going to go west. Oh, man. You guys are so awesome. This has been such a good Saturday. Okay, let's do the speed. I'm just going to say real quick, I just want to say that people ask Mark and me to do this

a lot and we have done this so much over the last 20 years that we always say no but you guys are really fucking special and you guys made this really fun thank you so thank you Oliver I am currently in the market

for a helix yes you are Kate and I need it I was just saying to Danny yes last night we're sleeping and I was like it's time we need a new mattress we haven't been sleeping well and we were like god I can't really sleep well I was like you know what she not sleeping I look so you're yawning right now you're yawning right now because you're not getting good sleep I need that helix I have I have had a helix I have had a helix on my bed for a long long time now it's really an

incredible mattress um you take a quiz a little two minute quiz you know you you give the ins and the ounce of how you sleep, whether you're a side sleep or a back sleeper, you know, you sleep hot or cold or this and that, and it spits out this perfect mattress for you. So if you like a mattress that's really soft or firm, you know, if you sleep on your side or your stomach or your back, Helix will have that exact mattress for you. Just a quick, quick quiz. Got your back. They got our back. So I sleep on my Helix mattress. I fall asleep very, very easily. They have a 10-year warranty. You get to try it for 100 nights, risk-free. They're going to pick it up for you if you don't love it, but you will. Helix is offering up to $200 off

all mattress orders and two free pillows for our listeners at helix sleep.com slash sibling. That's Helix-E-L-I-X-Sleep.com slash sibling for up to $200 off. So I just want to talk a little bit about the Lady and the Dale. Yes. You know, because you're talking about not doing things together, but here we are doing Lady and the Dale. This is what is this? Yeah.

So this is a documentary series that we have executive produced together. And it's an incredible true story about a woman named Liz Carmichael, who in the 1970s invented the three-wheeled car to sort of take on the male-dominated auto industry and the gas crisis. And she's a very complicated figure. She's definitely a bit of a schemer and definitely cut some corners. But at the same time, she was attacked by the media in a kind of grandiose way once they discovered that Liz Carmichael was a trans woman. And so it's a four-part doc series.

It's on HBO Max right now. And it really is just what's amazing about it, I find, is that if this was a cis white. male. We would have had five movies about this story about what an amazingly complex character and Tom Hanks would have played it. But this story has been buried. She has been erased from history. Why? Because all trans people are history are generally erased. Okay. So, so meaning back then it's been buried. Back then. There's probably a ton of stories to mine. I mean, some of it is accidental. Some of it is like our systems do not track this. Some of it is malicious. So it's a lot of reason. How did you How does you guys stumble upon her story?

It was brought to us by a filmmaker named Nick Camilleri, who had been working on it for about 10 years and was just really having trouble getting it set up and even just cracking the story because it just wasn't out there. And when Mark and I first heard about it, you know, we, it's almost like we couldn't believe it. And we, so we reached out to one of my really good friends from Transparent. Her name is Zachary Drucker, and she's a trans historian. She's an artist. She's a filmmaker.

she's a producer and we were like what is this is this real she had not even heard about it and so she ended up coming aboard becoming a producer becoming the co-director of the documentary and it's it's pretty exciting i mean we we really did get incredible feedback on sheila from well well country as being like one of the most thrilling characters to appear in cinema and mark and i looked at each other when we won the emmy and we're like okay well that's a one that's a winner. You get that one time in life. And weirdly, and this is partially because of the gift of that film with, you know, your cousins, Liz Carmichael is probably going to give Sheila a run for her money. She's un-fucking believable. Oh, I can't wait. I'm loving these four-part

docs now. That's like the standard. Everything is a four-part documentary. It's a great form. It's really wonderful documentaries have gotten their due after so much time. It's great, you know, the masses. Everybody's going to see them. It's awesome. Awesome. And your book, when does the book come out? So the book is out February 9th. This is our paperback edition, which has some extra material and sort of goes a little further into where our relationship has been heading, as we talked about on the podcast here. How was that writing process?

Crazy. Yeah, I mean. As anyone will tell you, you know, whenever you write a book, you try to give the advance back three or four different times and go kill yourself in the desert. but it did not work and we somehow made it through. But it was actually really therapeutic for us, honestly. I mean, the book is really an examination of the art of collaboration and how to get the best out of each other without destroying each other, but also an examination of our brotherhood and what it's brought us

and some of the negatives of that too. And it was a learning, it was a learning curve, honestly. I think the reason we took this book and we didn't even really know it is that this was going to be a way for us to dig into the next phase of who we were going to be and it helped us get there. Amazing. Kate, we should write a book. I'm scared. It's terrifying. You should be. You should be.

But that's probably why you got to do it. Okay. So let's do the speed round. I do want to propose one thing that I can be friends. with you at some point. And maybe you can mentor me even though I'm 45 years old. Even though we're the same age. Okay, one word to describe each other.

Oh my God. True. Strong. Mark said Jay is true. And Jay said Mark is, yeah, because of voice. Mark is, yeah, they're similar. This is one word to describe your relationship. this is an interest now i guess currently my first response was just forever but then you said now so

i'll think about now yeah this is mark and i would say um new kindling kindling kindling kindling kindling i like that that goes with my whole open fire cooking thing that's right all he's going to be kindling all night Also, Mark's going to be stalking you because Mark is Mark's favorite single thing in this whole world is fire. Fire. Oh, really? Oh, my God. I've become obsessed with fire.

I've become obsessed with all the different kinds of woods, all the hardwoods and the soft woods and how they burn and the kind of burn they give off. I'm just what I want to see right now is Mark's face disappears from the screen and I hear a ding dong. Yeah, that's it. That's it. Literally, that's what happens. Instantly shows up at your house. Wait, are you obsessed with fire as a cooking as a tool, or are you obsessed with fire, period? Mostly it's as a, like, as a meditation source.

Okay. Light a fire at a campfire at my house, the, you know, the fireplace, all of that stuff. Are you a fire sign? No, I don't know. I'm vegetarious. Yeah, you're a fire sign. Oh, okay. Well, there you go.

Okay. Who cries more? I think we're even. Yeah, I think that Jay cries more frequently, but. But when I cry, it's like, big. It's like, do we need to go to the hospital? Dangerous. Yeah.

That's very, very true. I cry more frequently, and Mark is like, okay, we're going to the emergency room. But the average annual rainfall is the same. I would agree. I would agree. What song, what one song would sum up your childhood? summer breeze Mark and I did a lot of cover songs of Lionel Richie

as an acoustic duo in New Orleans no I was just listening to a little yeah I'm easy yeah dude Lionel's my I love Lionel Richie There's something about Christopher Cross's sailing

that covers a lot to go on the basis for me Which we later found out was written about the lake outside of Austin that we used to be hearing out. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, my God. Sailing is one of my favorite fucking songs.

Really? No, it's... Sailing takes me away. Where I'm going to... Okay, first live show. Mm. Rolling Stones' steel wheels tour. Wow.

That was mine. Come on. I was really little. It was the steel wheels. That's crazy. Yeah, it was my first one. And then, and then it was. was George Michael.

George Michaels was mine. Amazing. Faith. Mine was, I was at the Steel Wheels tour. Mine was cutting crew bangles 1980.

Oh my God. Fucking incredible. The Bengals? The Bengals. That's awesome. I'm still getting over. She's the best. My obsession with her.

It's just another man. Isn't that the Bengals? Yep. It is. Written by Prince, the song is written by Prince wrote that song. You can, by the way, when you do know that, I mean, you hear Prince all over that track. Yeah, I mean. Oh, it's right there.

First celebrity crush, like when you were kids. Olivia Newton, John, Greece. Oh, my God. Yes. Hot. I mean, yet that. But what about when she transformed? That's what I'm saying.

You get, you get everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. That's why she was so wonderful. She looked like that. my mom and then she wasn't and I was like this is great I'm trying to think of my first crush it might be Olivia Newton John but I liked her in the before better than the after I was a little I was like whoa I was like scared in on my heels of teased hair and shit I was just like I'm not ready oh my god it's a good call mark I think that's it yeah okay who's better at assembling things

like okay a hundred percent so jay was obviously four years older he learned how to read the manual first and i'm not kidding you i cannot put together anything to this day because he learned it and i never learned it and when katy and i got married i mean she just like looked at me at a certain point when we had to like put together a piece of ikea furniture and she was just like really like you literally are this useless when it comes to this stuff like how is it possible you've gotten through the world at this point where do you where do you guys differ the most you know what i mean like where are you where are you worlds apart if you are at all in anything that's a good question the first thing that occurs

me when you say that is that um the the the the instinctual brazen confidence that i have of youth has not been knocked out of me just yet. So when it comes time for us to say, should we do X, whether it's a project, whether it's go camping in the Grand Canyon without a permit, it is always me being like, yes,

and always Jay being like, whoa, maybe not. And thank God he is there to do that. And thank God I am there to do that. Because somewhere between the two of us, we find a way of making it work. Yeah. Yeah, when you ask the question, the words that came into my mind were Mark is a sprinter and I am long distance. And that is literally what we were in high school. Like Mark was a sprinter

and I was cross country. But it's also in scripts, like Mark is so incredible in a first draft. But the idea for Mark of writing 20 drafts of something is like he would rather jump off building. And also like editorial. We have been through like seven month editorials sometimes. And it's just like it so i have to go away yeah yeah yeah i can't even when we did our like conscious uncoupling it was a little hard mark was like it felt like forever to him and i was trying to communicate that this is a long game you know and we've been doing this for three days man but you know and and what's been interesting too is now that we're doing more stuff on our on our own I've had to learn how to throw myself off of a cliff more.

Because usually Mark would just be like, sorry, but, you know, it was like, you know, when you parachute and you have to be hooked to somebody else. Like, we're staying on the cliff looking over. And Mark would just like secretly, like, put a hook into my belt loop while I'm not looking and be like, I'm really sorry, but, you know. And of course, I resented the fuck out of it while we were like free falling in the air. but that one moment as you guys know as creators

that is that's the hardest moment that is the single hardest moment of any creation. Our speed route is so slow you guys I know but they always end up being slow All right good Who's the stricter parent? I don't know

I think I am Katie and I are a little strict I don't know if it's a good thing or not but I think I am I feel like I'm strict too but that probably means we're both super super permissive.

Yeah, what was your favorite working experience together? Oh, God. That's got to be a tough one. The first short film for me that was good was called This is John, and it was just an idea, and it was Mark essentially improvising trying to perfect the personal greeting of outgoing message of his answering machine. It lasted 18 minutes, and it was like the first time. Wow.

It was the first time that I saw Mark, it was the first time that we were expressing ourselves and uniquely what we have to offer. And it was the first time I was behind a camera laughing and like being riveted by what was in front of the camera instead of that thing that happens as indie filmmakers where we're like, I think we got it. You know, if you're saying that, you didn't get it. You didn't get shit. You know, you learn later that when it happens, it happens.

and it goes in the camera or it doesn't, you know, that for me was, it'll never be more thrilling than that. I didn't even understand it at the time. I was just like, oh my God, it just was a different thing than we had done before. That's cool. There was a moment for me when we were shooting the pilot of togetherness and we were shooting the last scene of the pilot. And it just wasn't there and it wasn't working the way we wanted it to do. And we were feeling. the apparatus of the larger budget machine, you know, where you feel like the clock is ticking, everything is expensive. And we just felt like, well, we got to stay on budget. We got to stay on schedule. And we just kind of made this decision of just like, no, like we got to do what we used to

always do, which is when it's not working, we stop because you're going to make something bad if you keep moving forward just to stay on schedule. We took a walk around the block and we talked to our actors and we found a new way into the scene and then we ended up getting it. And I remember looking at Jay after that and feeling like we had kind of come full circle. It's like we captured what we used to be good at as like kids as artists and brought it into the grown-up Hollywood machine and found a way to like keep our special spirit inside of the machine. It felt so good. Those are the best moments. I love moments.

Love those moments. Yeah. So our last questions are usually, it's a two-part question. And the first part of it is if you could alleviate something from your sibling that you believe would better their life, what would that be? And then the other part is if you could emulate something from your brother, from your sibling, that you wish you had more of in your life. What would that mean? Wow. It's a good question.

Yeah, that's a really good one. My first thought on the alleviation for Jay is I would alleviate whatever it was in his childhood or his DNA or anything that I might have done that caused some of the self-doubt that is there. in creative decision making and personal decision making just take that away and try to lay bare some of the certainty that very smart,

truthful, steady human being, you know what you're doing, you're fine. Close your eyes, trust your instincts. You're good. Thank you. I think

I would alleviate for Mark the desire, compulsion, need to be everything for everybody. I'm like emotional. I feel like I'm at like, you know, Hoffman. I know. I don't really do that, though. Do you guys want some fries or anything? And what would you want to take from your brother? What would you want to emulate?

Something you wish you had for yourself. I know very clearly what this is, which is that I have to set this up just a little bit. But I am a very forward and brave and bold person in this world. And I'm often the first step, as Jay has said, to lead us into a situation. and I say, get behind me, Jay, I got this, and he gets in my back, and we go, and we go, and then usually we get to this terrifying point that we could never have perceived. And at that point, I lose it, and I do not have it. And in those ultimate crisis moments, Jay is at his absolute best, clear, certain, and just great. And I would love to have that ability on my own to be able to do that, because that's not,

Yeah, I don't... I mean, that's great. I mean, mine is probably just the yang of that. I wish that I had Mark's confidence, but I think that's reductive. The way that I... The word confidence is, I think, a little bit reductive in terms of the value that he has

and the way that I see it more now is Mark is like brave in terms of willing to walk into imperfection. That's a level of courage that I think is an incredibly high value in life. It's easy to say that somebody has courage and you can be written off to something you're born with, which Mark does have some of that, you know.

But as we all know, especially as creators, but everybody in this world to walk into something with imperfection where you can look fucking bad is just something that I am like so enamored with and Mark and amazed by on a regular basis. Love.

Yes. I wish I was a de Plas brother. Well, Oliver, I present you with this plaque. official my first award I love you guys love you guys thank you for doing this I love you guys

wonderful awesome I hope in all of this we can all hang out sometime I love it too oh god I can't wait I can't wait I feel like we can just I know I know I know I know I know Josh Windish.

Music by Mark Hudson, aka Uncle Mark. If you want to show us some love, rate the show and leave us a review. This show is powered by Simplecast. I'm Jorge Ramos. And I'm Paola Ramos. Together we're launching The Moment, a new podcast about what it means to live through a time as uncertain as this one. We sit down with politicians, artists, and activists to bring you death and analysis from a unique Latino perspective. The moment is a space for the conversations we've been having us father and daughter for years.

Listen to The Moment with Jorge Ramos and Paola Ramos on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On a cold January day in 1995, 18-year-old Krista Pike killed 19-year-old Colleen Slemmer in the woods of Knoxville, Tennessee. Since her conviction, Krista has been sitting on death row. How does someone prove that they deserve to live? live. We are starting the recording now. Please state your first and last name. Krista Pike. Listen to Unrestorable Season 2, Proof of Life, on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Introducing IVF disrupted, the kind body story, a podcast about a company that promised to revolutionize fertility care. It grew like a tech startup, while Kind Body did help women start families. It also left behind a stream of disillusioned and angry

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