Sibling Revelry with Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson - The Family Estrangement Episode with Dr. Karl Pillemer

Episode Date: March 24, 2021

Kate and Oliver sit down with Dr. Karl Pillemer, whose research found that 25% of people live with some kind of family estrangement. They discuss the stigma, the causes, steps to reconciliation, and more.Executive Producers: Kate Hudson and Oliver HudsonProduced by Allison BresnickEdited by Josh WindischMusic by Mark HudsonThis show is powered by Simplecast.This episode is sponsored by Upstart, Each & Every, and Beauty Blender (PROMO CODE: SIBLING)See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. September is a great time to travel, especially because it's my birthday in September, especially internationally. Because in the past, we've stayed in some pretty awesome Airbnbs in Europe. Did we've one in France, we've one in Greece, we've actually won in Italy a couple of years ago. Anyway, it just made our trip feel extra special.

So if you're heading out this month, consider hosting your home on Airbnb with the co-host feature. You can hire someone local to help manage everything. Find a co-host at Airbnb.ca slash host. I'm Jorge Ramos. And I'm Paola Ramos. Together we're launching The Moment, a new podcast about what it means to live through a time,

as uncertain as this one. We sit down with politicians, artists, and activists to bring you death and analysis from a unique Latino perspective. The Moment is a space for the conversations we've been having us father and daughter for years. Listen to The Moment with Jorge Ramos and Paola Ramos on the I-Heart Radio app, podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.

I just normally do straight stand-up, but this is a bit different. What do you get when a true crime producer walks into a comedy club? Answer, a new podcast called Wisecrack, where a comedian finds himself at the center of a chilling true crime story. Does anyone know what show they've come to see? It's a story. It's about the scariest night of my life. This is Wisecrack, available now.

Listen to Wisecrack on the IHeart Radio app. Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Kate Hudson. And my name is Oliver Hudson. We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationship. And what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling rivalry. No, no.

Sibling rivalry. Don't do that with your mouth. Sibly Revelry That's good Oliver This was a great It's a great episode

It I think speaks to a lot of the things on the show And one big major theme in our life Which is being I guess sort of estranged with our father, even though we do connect here and there. And that how common that is, how unfortunately common it is for someone to be estranged from someone in their family, an actual listener shared this book with us, and then we got in touch with him and asked if he'd come and talk with us about, you know, family complications.

We're talking to Dr. Carl Pilemer. He's actually a family sociologist. He's a professor at Cornell University where I went. That's my alma mater. Who was I just talking to recently who went to Cornell or someone whose kid maybe? I don't think we're going to have anyone in our family go to Cornell. No, definitely not. Maybe Ronnie.

Maybe Bing and Bodie. they're kind of they're smart kids yeah they're way smarter than we were i know i just let's just make sure they don't hear this podcast i got an email yesterday because again like bodie i'm you know he's always on top of things and i never have to worry about him and i get an email saying that he is 17 assignments missing one seven like what the fuck how is that even possible i i confronted him And he just did, you know what's so great about Bodie? I'm talking a little quiet because he's kind of near the next room. But he just did, he was like, he just said, you know what?

I got, I'm tired and I got lazy. I was tired and lazy and I just, you know, I put it off and put it off. And it just built up and it was too many to actually go back and do. And I got tired and I got lazy. And I was like, how am I mad at that? I'm like, wow, okay, well. Great. Well, thank you for being so open. And let's just get it done. I couldn't even get mad. That's so funny. You know, okay, I'm going to top this story. Are you ready for this? Bing, we feel like is doing all his work. And all of a sudden, I get a call. Same thing. So Bing is missing 51 assignments.

And I was like, this has to be a mistake. You mean 15 assignments? No, 51. And so I go to Bing and I'm like, Bing, we need to talk about this, you know. So you're missing. And I couldn't even like get it out. 51 assignments. And he was looking at me like, like, it's like in his mind, he's like, there's no way I'm missing.

51 assignments and in my mind I'm going there's no way he's missing 51 assignments and he's like mom that has to be like a mistake right and I'm like I don't think so so we go into his thing and he's missing 51 assignments and then he got them done in literally three days no joke it was like it was like why wouldn't the teacher or the school will be like hey you know what you're missing three assignments. Let's get on this. Why are we waiting till 51? I don't know. This is what I said to them. And they said, look, you know, this is very common. And I said to the teacher, I said, it's common for a child to be missing 51 assignments. I don't know. But that doesn't, that doesn't really sound like a, yeah.

Well, I bowed, I bow down. That, that definitely trumps Bodie by a long shot. Holy crap. I did tell him that if he did it again, that I would estrange him. Is that an actual word? Like, can you say, listen. To estrange? I'm going to estrange you. I'm going to estrange you. Sounds, that's what I say to Aaron.

We're being, and making love. You want to estrange you? Do you want to get estranged right now? You want to. I'm feeling, I'm feeling like. God, let's just help Dr. Carl is not listening to this intro. No, I mean, I'm glad we can laugh about, you know, how traumatic our estrangement was. Yes, exactly. That's how we deal with it. We're crying on the inside.

Anyway, Dr. Pomer. Getting back. He's a family psychologist. I know Oliver has already said that. and the Hazel E. Reed professor in the Department of Human Development at Cornell University. And he also directs the Cornell Legacy Project. His book is called Fault Lines, Fractured Families and How to Mend Them. Really interesting conversation. The thing that I learned the most was sort of how much shame comes with a lot of this and how quiet everybody is about it, how nobody really talks about estrangement.

it's always it's always interesting to talk to you know experts doctors professionals that pertains to situations in your life so it's personal you know when when we get to have these conversations especially with dr carl talking about estrangement relating it to what we've been through reading his book understanding how we can sort of benefit from reading it get putting the tools into the toolbox to then try to fix and help some of these relationships, even ours, you know. Well, and also how you can mend, you know, there's obviously times and circumstances that shouldn't be. But, you know, when is the right time to look at it and want to reconcile or come together? Is it possible? You know, these are all the things that we discussed. I think this is

one of my favorite episodes, clearly because it does relate to us in a huge way, but also just learning so much about how common it is, really. And he even said, it's so nice that people are becoming more transparent about their situations and their family when they aren't in contact with a family member or have had an event that has led them to not speaking. And I know. It's interesting, though, because sometimes those things not necessarily get blown out of proportion, but we stew in them, you know, instead of communicating and maybe realizing that there are ways to reconcile if we can just open up our mouths, communicate, and understand some of the differences and maybe get to realize why we did, why, why we are strange, what happened

to have a dialogue about it. And we talk about patterns and we talk, there's a lot of stuff we touch on in this episode and I have a feeling people are really going to love this one. So without further ado, this is our estrangement episode with Dr. Carl Pillimer. We are obviously very excited to talk to you. And as most people know who listen to our podcast are both ourselves, we're a, estranged from our father, or we like to just say abandoned. Kate, we were abandoned by her. And we've seemed to kind of, it's affected both of us differently and, you know, something

that's always carried throughout our lives and everything that we do. And so when we heard about your book and we heard about you, we were like, we have to interview Carl. So thank you so much for joining us today. I'm so excited. Well, it's such a pleasure. And you're right. It's an incredible topic that affects way more people than we think about.

And it's a problem hiding in plain sight that people just don't want to discuss. Well, why do you give the statistics, you know, because they were pretty unreal, actually? That's a great way to start. And let me tell you that when I started this project five years ago, I was aware that it was an issue from reading about folks like you who are well-known and problems in their own family and from talking to friends. But really, there had been almost no research on it. And the question was, is just one of those silent epidemics that everybody talks about,

or is it really a serious problem affecting a lot of people? And so one thing I did, you know, like when in doubt, do a survey. So I did a true random sample survey of the United States asking people in no uncertain terms, is there a close relative from whom you're estranged? That is, you have no contact with them whatsoever. And to my absolutely stunned surprise, only 27% of the U.S. population, so that would translate to 67 million folks, said that in fact they did have such an estrangement in their own life. And in almost every case, because I asked follow-ups, these weren't trivial.

It wasn't just, oh, I lost contact with him or her. These were, you know, upsetting, you know, issues for them. so often the numbers don't speak for themselves you know but this time they really do this is a serious issue for a lot of people as you yourselves know yeah there's something you said in the beginning of your book you talked about how you yourself having had experiences with this that you don't actively discuss them because what you've learned is that there's so many people involved in every story and that it's not yours necessarily your story to tell. And I thought that was really interesting. I think a lot of, especially people in my position or Oliver's position, we don't engage in the

conversation because it is just one side and you don't really want to ignite any negativity or, you know, and there are feelings of shame that come with it and also like, you know, or self-worth that come with being like, well, who really cares about this part of my life? and how traumatic it is. What I've learned is that it's almost wild how many people that it does affect and nobody feels comfortable talking about it. And I wonder what moved you to actually spend the time focusing on it?

You know, the idea, sometimes ideas, I'm sure it's true with creative work, they feel like they come out of the blue, but actually I realized I thought that at first, but there was a long history. I've been interested in my whole research life in families after children become adults. So, you know, we have our kids home for 18 years, but we're going to have at least twice as much shared lifetime with them after they're out of the house. So I was really interested in the nature and dynamics of how families operate after everybody's an adult.

I drift a little bit towards the dark side of families, I must admit. So I've studied things like the effects of parental favoritism. I've even looked at domestic violence or exploitation in these later life families. So I was primed for it. But I began a project maybe 10 years ago or 12 interviewing the oldest people in America, so 80, 90, or 100 about their lives. And one key question we asked is, what do you regret? So I thought when I asked very old people what you regret or, you know,

how do you get to the end of life with no regret? I'll tell you one thing they said, by the way. They told me that if you get to 90 or 100 and have no regrets, you haven't had a very interesting life. But still, and I expected big ticket items. I expected affairs. I expected kind of shady business deals. I was stunned by, for how many very old people, unresolved, the strange one was the most painful thing they could describe. And it really hit me with one older woman in Texas who broke down into tea.

years began to pounded fists on the arm's over chair and say this hurts like crazy and I can't do anything about it. So I started to look at the research literature and I was stunned that there was almost nothing. Even the handbook of family therapy, this huge volume, doesn't have an entry for you know, estrangedment. So I was sitting thinking about it and basically a mental list came. One, people like yourselves who are very well known, experience it and we read about it. I've seen it a lot. and there's no research on it and not even a counseling literature. What's wrong with this picture? So I embarked on what for me was really the most sort of exciting journey.

It took me into some dark places, but also some very uplifting and positive ones too. It feels broad. You know what I mean? Estrangement just feels very broad. And, you know, yes, the research gives you statistics, but you know as you sort of talk about in your book it's not quite there yet to really form an actual right you know it's almost like it's almost like the research starts from people who have like marital issues like how to how to have a fruitful relationship the research is more about how

you grew up or the estrangement that you had is affecting your relationship now right then i guess the idea though is is to recognize it and you know and fix it in a way, or, you know, get into your own psychology and discover how that estrangement has affected your life and where it has come from. Well, there's two parts of it, isn't it? Absolutely. Right? There's the psychology behind being estranged or being a victim of someone, or there's the person

actively, like, removing themselves. Well, there's the circumstances for estrangement, too. are so broad and it's like you talk about everyone has their story and they stick to their narrative and that narrative becomes so embedded that you're not going to knock them off of it right you know exactly i mean the one because because what i found is that when people want an apology from somebody you know they say well i'll reconcile if you apologize well it turns out that they don't want an apology for one thing that person did they want an apology for their entire childhood it or for the kind of person that the other person is.

And what I learned also, you're so right, Alar, that, you know, people get, we all get invested in our own narratives. So my narrative, so a person's narrative that what he was doing to his brother was ordinary teasing and the brother's narrative that it was sibling abuse, after 30 years, it's never going to, these views are not going to align. And so one of the key things that people who successfully recognize, Because that was one thing I did that was different. I interviewed a lot of people, not just who were estranged, but who'd gotten back together,

the first time anyone had done this after 10, 20, or 30 years. This notion of letting go of the past, I'm building a new future together, as incredibly hard as that was, is really key. Because what someone said, I mean, but people would say, I realized that he or she wasn't going to give up his or her narrative of what went on any more than I was willing to. So it's that kind of complex, you know, interior work that you have to do. I think you're right. Yeah. And then specifically when you are dealing with the person you were estranged with, if you decide to try to reconcile, I think you feels like you have to be open to their narrative and trying to go deeper and understanding where they came from. I mean, specifically to me, and I won't get into

all the details, but I have had, you know, a reconciliation of sorts with my father. But, you know, now getting into your book and patterns, right, realizing that it wasn't necessarily his fault when you go back into his family, into his world, and realize what his dad did to him. And now I was just part of that chain, you know, a compassion happens. You know, I understand you more, which allows me to soften a bit in my position. And then I wanted to talk about this too, but then your expectations change the more you know. And one of the things that you tap on in the book is about expectations, how we kind of form our own expectations and how they can, you know, I wonder, I sometimes feel like we all form personal expectations that if we hold on to them

too tightly, they'll just never be met. I wonder when you're researching all, all of these different people, especially people who have reconciled, do you think maybe they let all the expectation go? You touch on two huge points. And, you know, often social sciences, science is super complicated, but there were a couple of straightforward things that really emerged from this. One is, I think, if you really want to reconcile, and Oliver, maybe you did this, is I found that people who reconcile ask themselves the question, first of all, what's the least I can

accept. So let's imagine that you're a grandparent who's estranged from your daughter and you want to see your grandchildren. And so you'd say, okay, if my daughter says, I can come see the grandchildren about my second husband can't. Or, you know, I can come on weekends or I can visit them and can't stay at their house. I may have to put up with X or Y. So often people did kind of a cost-benefit analysis. And they decided what the least they could accept in the new relationship was. And second, you're right. I mean, you know, I don't know all the details of your family situation, but I'm sure you, like a lot of adult children, have, oh, my dad, even my parents are divorced. I don't have my back or are to be there for me. A lot of people realize just

what you said, the person didn't have the capacity to do it. And they dropped the expectation. You know, that cliched expectations or disappointments waiting to happen? I mean, it really is true. I think also, I'm not quite sure what your ages are, but when you, like, if you're thinking about a person in their 30s and 40s and a parent in their 60s and 70s, it's not like the other person's going to change. Like these expectations that I'll get back into this if the other person becomes X, Y, or Z. so I think you hit the nail right on the head

is you have to look in advance what can I accept about this and is a restored albeit imperfect relationship worth it you know the thing is is we started right with the reconciliation but I want to start from the beginning of like the feelings we can go back it's like a it's like a Tarantino movie you know I'm a nonlinear guy

it's funny because you're more linear than I am just in general interview to turn into like Oliver's therapy session. It's not. Every time we do things like this, Oliver's like, he talks about Hoffman. He talks about. I didn't say the word, Hoffman. Well, you implied. I went to the Hoffman Institute.

Great place. We won't get into everything, although it's what the people want to hear, Kate. No, so just it's interesting that you say that because no one's changing. He's not changing. but there's been an acceptance in a sense our relationship isn't much better than it was before but there's an ease to it now there's some texting here and there but i'm okay with that you know it's something for me yeah you know i think and i'm curious about the contrast too because that's what i found is it very often when people said okay why did you reconcile so you've been estranged

almost a hundred percent said really the other person i wasn't concerned about he or she'd go jump in the lake. I did this for me. So one of my favorite quotes from the study is a guy who was estranged from his brother for 25 years, called in. They had sort of a semi-reconciliation. He said, I woke up the next morning realizing it's the first time in 25 years. This hasn't been in the back of my mind that I don't talk to my brother. So some people find it, you know, like a weight off their shoulders kind of. It helps them move ahead with their own personal development. On the other hand, if a relationship is dangerous or abusive or damaging, people have to make their own choice. Well, reconciliation is almost selfish in a sense, right?

Because it's for you, it's for personal benefit in a way. It's what you said. Oh, once I reconcile and come to terms, I feel better. Yeah. You know what's interesting, if I can digress briefly, what is interesting is that, you know, in a much smaller scale way. You know, like so it used to be that folks who are well known like you, these family issues would come out in the tabloids or whatever, but everybody else would be more private. Now with the advent of social media, this, you know, if somebody is having a difficult

relationship where his or her parent, you know, all 1,000 of their Facebook fans know. Yeah, it's open. And the other person has, I think, that same feeling of an ability to defend himself against it. Yeah. So, you know, it's both for you. It was on this enormous scale. But even for, you know, kind of more regular folks, they're seeing these things made public in a way that really affects a whole dynamic.

You know, Oliver would, like, do something public, like, he did this post one time. Well, this is what I wanted to talk about. Right. And, like, my dad wanted to, like, Katie, she should just, like, I don't know, what do I do? No, I'm glad you brought that up because I was scared to because Kate doesn't want to get Yeah, I didn't read about that, which was so interesting because very often in these estrangement, there's an event like that. This thing happens that castle, but here's what's so interesting. The reconciliation, at least personally, came from this crazy Instagram post where I said, Happy Abandonment Day.

It was a picture of my, it was Father's Day, and it was a picture of myself, Kate, and my dad in nicer times, and I wrote Happy Abandonment Day. That's my sort of dark sense of human. the whole dad issue has been dormant it makes the point in it's not a hand to you but but the whole dad thing had been dormant for years and years and years it just wasn't even a concept in our lives and then boom and ignited it he's back out in the press he's disowning us saying he'd take a hudson name they need to lose their hudson name and that prompted me to say all right let's go i got into contact with him three-hour conversation and then boom it that that's where this came out of, at least my reconciliation with my father, came out of that, that moment of, you know.

But what's so interesting is that I, my relationship is so different. Yeah, but you know, that's so classic. It's from, from other research we've done, you know, two people can grow up in the same family, share half their genes and have completely different relationships with the parents. You know, each person creates their own microenvironment. You know, one thing I found in doing, these interviews. So I would start these interviews with people who were estranged, you know, because several hundred people. And there were some who would begin by saying, no, you know, he's just an awful person. This is great. I felt free and liberated. And by the time the interview was halfway through, they were crying, you know, because there are these basic fundamental biological

processes of attachment, even if it's only until 18 months, you know. You get attached to people in irrational ways. So very often I would have, it seems to be more daughters of estranged fathers, would say, I want her in my life and I don't know why, you know. And the partial answer to why is that you have early processes of bonding in a family that you just can't completely forget about. And that desire is still there, or at least that ambivalence.

Like, you know, kind of should I stay or should I go? You know, is it worth making an overture? And, you know, I think that is really the question is, oh, the other thing I would add, one thing I would encourage somebody from these interviews, you know, to ask themselves is what's in it for me. So here's one thing that people did find, and what family therapists will also tell you, that the difference between estrangement and just a negative relationship is that things freeze. So I've always thought of it like that scene in Sleeping Beauty that I was obsessed with, a kid, you know, or like when she pricks her finger on the needle, everything freezes,

like the dancers are midway and half step, and it freezes that way for 100 years. So all this stuff goes on and you have no access to it. You have no access to information, how the person might change, how dynamics may have switched. And you can't, if you're in therapy or, let's say, there isn't the live material to engage with. And so what a lot of people said is, you know, the difference with just a little contact was the person is then back and you can, like it can become kind of an engine for personal growth. Right. You know, once again, barring it being too damaging or painful, so it really squirts you off.

But if you're protected against that, having the person there so you can assess what's going on is there were a lot of people who found that very helpful. What's interesting is, I mean, maybe half of my girlfriends have, complicated relationships with their fathers. I was thinking about that the other day. One of my best girlfriends also estranged from her father, but she never knew him. And then when she got older, she went and looked for him. And when she went to look for him, she found out that he had died. And I thought to myself, I'm like, I almost think that might be better than having this, like,

this roller coaster of sort of, you know they're there, you know that they're there, you know that they have like have other families and that they you know there if you just don't know then you just don't know you know it's it's sort of it's like an empty space versus like a a fucked up complicated space exactly you know i i used the term in the book someone else developed ambiguous loss way better than fucked up space that you know because a person is psychologically present but physically absent you know and so you know i had a number of people who said that even though they wouldn't want this to happen, it would have been easier if the person had died because they wouldn't know what to do, you know. But as one person said, like, this is no funeral, no closure, you know, it just goes sort of on and on.

I do wonder, and nobody studied this, you know, in terms of parent-child relations, what the dynamics or the interaction of a celebrity with those relationships are? I mean, most people's kids' lives aren't played out in public or and, and the parents might not know how to adjust to this and in some cases may take advantage of it. You know, just talking to you, I was thinking, I wonder how these dynamics, you know, really might be different. Well, you know, because you read like in the sitting down now, in your case, it's different, but, you know, the father's a factory worker, the mother's a school teacher and the kids. and the kid becomes, you know, this sort of world famous celebrity, it's got to have an impact on how parents and children relate to one another. If that's too far or feel, you know. No, no, not all great.

It's a great question. I think it's an interesting question, too. I mean, I, I... It's an interesting one because you may be surprised, I think, that it's not that different, or maybe I'm only saying that because it's my experience. I do think that as far as expectation goes, you know, the cliche is you just want what your parents had, but maybe a little bit more, you know.

Kate achieved that. But I'm just saying there's an ex... And again, we came from the same stock, but there's expectations that you put on yourself, and sometimes that expectation will catapult you, and sometimes it suppresses you. I don't think that's what he's asking, about...

I didn't get to my conclusion. Definitely. So that relationship, I'm saying that parent, that parent daughter or son relationship, you know, when you're dealing with celebrity, it can, it can... I don't know what I'm saying. You don't know what you're saying.

I'm trying to figure out what you are saying. But you fucked me up. You interrupted me. Well, I was trying to say, I think what he's saying is these sort of divorce type things playing out in public. Yeah. We're keeping this in so everyone can see.

It's playing out in public. I'm happy to keep it in because you'll see that you're the one. You know what? I'm going to estrange myself from you. I'm going to estrange myself from you right now. It'll last like five seconds and then you'll be like crying. Like, I love you. I love you so.

I feel like, you know, our parents, just our experience is probably really different than I think a lot of people, whether it be an highly kind of affluent households or celebrity households. They really protected us from seeing anything. Yeah, but overall, I mean, I did not like the celebrity aspect of it. I hated when people would come to the table and ask for their autograph. It made me angry. You know, I was like, get the fuck away. You know, that was my feeling.

Leave us alone. You know, or when you walked through the airport and at the time, people would jump out and start photographing you, I hated it. Now he's like longed for it. Now he just dies for it. Well, Kate, Kate was posing most of the, like, when that happened, you know, she was like, oh my God, they're here.

Yeah, you should see some of my airport pictures when I'm four. I just, I hated it. I mean, so, you know. Yeah, but you know, I think you guys are saying something that makes me think, you know, that this is one phenomenon that is kind of an equal opportunity phenomenon. And then like we also in the surveys that we did, we, for example, looked at, we looked at differences in how many people reported estrangements by race or gender, by kind of socioeconomic status. And there just really aren't any differences. It's like an equal opportunity problem that, you know, as we've discussed, has kind of as many origin.

You know, it's like the snowflakes are never the same. I mean, each one, even though there's a lot in common, each one is its own sort of individual pathway. And, you know, right, it gets played out on different platforms. But it really, the basic dynamics are pretty similar, I think. Yeah, I was kind of saying that in an interview the other day and someone asked me about it because I had mentioned that I wanted to reach out to my celebrities. And I mean, my celebrities, that I wanted to reach out to my siblings. Yeah. But I was saying that celebrities, it's no different the experience or how it manifests or feels like than someone who's not a celebrity.

The idea that, you know, estrangement is estrangement. I mean, abandonment is abandonment. Neglect is neglect, no matter where it doesn't discriminate. It exists. It happens. And it manifests itself differently in different people. You're right, too. I hadn't thought, right, it's a problem, too, that money can't sort of buy your way out of.

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Do you want to know why? Because I'm about to go live on TikTok. Oh, you are? Yep, I'm going to venture into the TikTok world. And one of the ones that I've been doing, you know, I've been kind of like seeing how it works and vibing out. And one of the things I've been doing with my makeup artist is, You know, when she's doing my face, I'm just like doing weird posts trying to figure out TikTok. And she's always using the beauty blender.

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Exclusions apply. I really think this is interesting. The shame part, I really do want to hit on the shame part because you're saying something about social media. And it's something that I love about what's happening now. I think so many people come out and talk about whether it be mental illness or alcoholism, drug abuse, things that... Eating disorders. Eating disorder. Things that we've hid behind.

The shame of estrangement, like, I'm curious as to what you're... findings are on that. I know what my personal relationship to it is, but but on a whole do what kind of shame do people, you know, I've noticed it in myself. So what people would say actually one of the quotes in the book is a woman said, you know, you mentioned this to people at dinner and they treat it like you're talking about your hemorrhoids. You know, it's just not something somebody's going to ask any more questions about the sense of the other person, a sense of, a that there's got to be something wrong with you. And that is particularly true of parents,

but also it's almost like an involuntary, like Med Magazine, like what they're really thinking bubble over your head. You know, like when the person says, I just don't see my son anymore, you know, he decided that he doesn't want to have anything more to do with us. Most people have an ingrained assumption that the person themselves, you know, did something wrong. So I think that's part of the shame.

There's also another really interesting kind of popular social science fact. It's true that parents care more. So we know from, and you probably know this from your own kids, you've invested all this time and energy and effort. And if, God forbid, any of our kids were to say, I don't want to see you anymore. You know, you feel like you've lost all of that, you know, that you've invested. So the one thing I say to parents, by the way, is be careful about how you treat your kids in the sense that it's easier for them to get out of the relationship than it is for you. So that's part of it. But so I think that's part of the shame.

And we know that as people get older, their social networks start to shrink and they become more reliant on family members for their day-to-day well-being. And so they start to feel the estrangement acutely. I think what you folks are doing is really bringing this out into the open and having people talk about it as just something that happens to a lot of people is very liberating for others. I've gotten that response to the book. Many of my interviewees said it was the first time they talked to anybody about it. So I don't know. You're right. I guess the question why people do experience it is so stigmatized.

is an interesting one. You said something that made me think like, okay, well, if I'm a parent and my child says, I'm done with you, I never want to see you again, my instinct wouldn't be to defend my position. My instinct would be to immediately want to connect, right? And I think that that's where I would judge. That's why I could see where the stigma comes from,

because immediately if someone said, yeah, my son won't see me, I'd be, I'm immediately like, what did you do? What does that have to do with shame? That you would feel like I get the shame. You're ashamed because you could have done something. Right, exactly. Shame, it feels like shame can stop reconciliation,

meaning you feel so much shame that you are not even able to reconcile. But I think you raise a really good point that we don't, you know, that we think of someone else, as shame as a barrier, but I think you're right, that people feel sort of guilty, you know, and ashamed, and it sort of blocks them. Kate, in response to what you said, too, I wanted to say that, you know, my guess is that

you're feeling the way you do if that happened with one of your kids means it's likely that you won't become strange for them. A phenomenon I discovered in this research, though, is some parents, when their child, you know, begins this process of rejecting them, develop what I call defensive ignorance. So they become so defensive that they can't take in any new information about the relationship. And that's something that we know from social psychology that people do in response to rejection because it so affects our internal image of ourself and that we protect it. You know, we kind of cluster around it by being defensive.

So one of the most interesting things that I discovered in doing these interviews is often parents in particular would say right away, we'd sit down, we'd talk, they'd say, I have no idea what this happened. I just can't understand. And then you'd hear them describe a litany of conflicts and the kids written them a dozen letters to explain it. And then they'll come around and say, but I have no idea why this happened. So sometimes people feel ashamed enough that they completely revert to the other side, become extremely defensive. You'll see this in social network, in social media groups where, you know, the kids have abandoned them and they've deserted them. And adult children do the same thing, that they become very defensive and it blocks any reasonable thinking. one thing I discovered, and some family therapists say, is that parents think that their kids are

angry, hostile, or narcissistic. For a lot of adult children, their estrangements are motivated by anxiety. They're anxious. They're afraid that if they get back together with mom or dad, they're going to be pulled into their old way of behaving. They're going to be sucked into a family role that makes them like unbearably anxious or they're going to be criticized or belittled or their lifestyle choices are so even more than anger there's this undercurrent of anxiety that keeps people astraying yeah the anxiety is real that's and let me I have a question does do you think is is is death the main catalyst for getting back together for reconciliation meaning morbidity it's like we're all going to die and what's that going to be like when when dad dies a big motivation

for what you know like they're kind of steps when people start to think about reconciling this kind of a contemplation stage where it just occurs to them and then they begin to make real plans a big part of that contemplation stage is what you know in the book i call anticipated regret that people do start to think as one of my respondents said i didn't want to be that person who left, you know, who left this world with somebody holding a grudge against me or me holding a grudge against them. So I think I don't have date on this, but I've gotten tons of anecdotal evidence that people are reconnecting during the pandemic more than they were, that there's this sense that now may be too late. So I think, I agree on, I think it's a very strong

motivation for a lot of people, that they don't, you know, that it's going to, you know, that it's going to, you know, deathbed reconciliations might not occur. And, you know, as they perceive a limited time horizon, it's definitely a big part of why people choose to reconcile. What is the number one estrangement that you saw in your research? Like, was it parent-child or was it sibling-sibling, you know? Interestingly, parent-child and sibling were about equal. So that, like, so they're around 9% of the population is estranged from a sibling, and around 10 is estranged from a parent. And then there are people for whom, like if they've grown up with cousins and then the parents have a fight and they can't see them anymore, for whom that is really painful.

So I did include other relatives. Now, there's good news there. I mean, 90% of parents and children aren't estranged, but still 10% of people at this very moment, you know, kind of lying awake at night and looking up at the ceiling and thinking about it is a pretty big number. I have a lot of 10% in my life. I'm left-handed. What does that mean? I'm estranged from my life. You're just strange. Oh. Now, what about both? Do you find that the people who are estranged from a parent are also estranged from a sibling? You know, it has really interesting dynamics. In some, there's a big issue when siblings have dramatically different

views. And as you pointed out, we think of siblings as growing up in the same family and really don't. I mean, if you're three or four years apart, you've had a very different family environment. So I know a family, for example, there was a family in the study. Dad was a raging alcoholic for the first five or six years and then got sober. So the two kids had been. very different experiences. It does cause, so there's collateral damage here too. And one of, you know, so when estrangedments occur, I talk about it has these ripple effects.

And sometimes siblings don't want the other siblings, you know, to reconcile. If there, if three of them were really pissed at dad or mom, it can estrange them from the sibling if that person decides to get back together. You know, it's a cliche, but that's why we call family systems, right? I mean, each, you know, pair and the family affects the other ones. But, yeah, I think there is a relationship there for sure. It's guilt estrangement, too. I mean, what if we're in a situation where, like, I can't believe that you're having a conversation

or that you are even connecting with this person? How dare you, you know, what you do all the time? No, I'm kidding. But that must happen, right? I mean, where it's sort of similar what you're saying. Yeah, I know, it causes, we also, we actually included. in the study between 40 and 50 college students because a lot of what's been written about estrangement

has been, you know, people in your folks age range. And they feel incredibly caught in the middle. Like they really are part of collateral damage. I mean, students would say, I mean, I go home for the holiday. And the first thing is mom tells me what her mother did that last week or what her siblings did or so that it puts incredible pressure on people who are either trying to be peacemate. or like you said, you know, they make the connection and everybody else gets mad about it.

So, yeah, it causes a lot of complications. What about the study of it affecting, like, is it genetic? Like, is estrangement something that carries and could it be genetic? It's a really interesting question. And it's one that we clearly don't have any data. There obviously are genetic predispositions of the different kinds. of relationships. So, you know, there's some people who are by nature more irritable or more difficult or less conscientious, et cetera. But, you know, it's so hard to entangle that from a family

history of this cultural pattern where a family has just a family history of cutting one another off and people learn it. So that would be a great study for the future. Well, that's It feels learned, you know, it feels more learned, learned than actually. There are schools of family therapy that the first thing they would do with you is do kind of a genogram. And I describe in the book how I did that. And it made me realize the impact in my grandparents' generation, they all fought. My mom then, my dad died when I was an infant and my mom had four kids, you know, and was struggling. And we had these cousins and folks three or four hours away.

who would have been really, like, kind of real family to us, but because people 90 years ago, you know, argued over a house after the Patriarch died, we had no contact. So there are these family themes without a question like you've described. There's also origin, you know what I mean? Like, we don't really know where we come from on that side. To be able to sort of sit down and relate and even to feel that interconnection that is that you can't really put your fingers on.

I mean, when I sat down with my dad and looking at him across from the table, it was crazy to see myself and to almost hear my voice. And he got emotional because he saw himself in me. And it was really gnarly. And we have, we don't have, we've never had that with the Hudson side of the family to really feel that side of us. See, but that's any, the thing I would say about that, too, that there's one thing that we forget. So when people talk about estrangement, is that really the family, no matter what you hear in the media and the press, about the death of the American family or how we're in a post-family area, for most people, these are the most stable relationships that they ever experienced throughout their entire life course. One line of research, for example, is when people look at changes in social networks.

So you do a survey like who are your closest associates, and then you do it again 10 years later. Everybody changes except for your family, your spouse, your best friends, but the ones who are still usually there are, if you have adult children, they're still here. If you have living parents, they're still there. We still rely on the family to like, you know, what's Roberts Frostline? When you go there, they have to take you in. And that's why people feel unmoored when it goes away. It may not be conscious sadness, but it's just not that sense that here's this latent, you know, in sociology, we use a social capital. You know, the same way you have economic capital, you have social capital, this reservoir of people that if you needed it, they would be there for you, even if you don't talk to them that much.

And that's what estrangement really severs. And that I think is why, um, you know, like without preaching, it's good to explore these connections. It's not just help, but these rich family stories. And, you know, like for your kids, where they came from, if I can, one of the best things my interviewee said to me that really stuck with me is she was having a whole lot of problems with her mother. Her mother was really pretty much of a terrible person. They had been estranged for a long time.

So maybe after 25 years, she was having. kids and her kids were getting older and she said, you know, every person has basically 150 years of history because you've talked to your grandmother when she's 75 and she talked to her grandmother. So, you know, like there's an old person right now who's talked to somebody who might have lived somewhat after the Civil War. She said, you don't want to break that connection that sort of, you know, this long history in a family. So, you know, that is an important point, I think you're saying, but you've got this vast, interesting array of interesting people

that even if they aren't used, you'd like somebody to have access to you because it grounds you in the world. I don't know if that makes sense. No, it does because you're also cutting your own kids off from their history in a sense by not engaging or reconciling. I like talking about Upstar. I think this is a really important thing for a lot of, people. We don't learn about money in school. And we create a lot of debt. And we have multiple

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Don't forget to use our URL to let them know that we sent you. Kate and Oliver Hudson sent you. Loan amounts will be determined based on your credit, income and certain other information provided in your loan application. So go to upstart.com slash sibling. You know, the one thing that we know about families, and you, both of you have more than one kid, I can't remember. Three.

We both have three. So that, you know, the one thing which research shows us, by the way, is that two kids growing up in the same family are no more similar to one another in person. personality and other characteristics than are two randomly selected kids. It's like even though you probably noticed it, like there are these huge within family differences. So even though they share half their genes, they're like really different.

You know, they sort of create their own environments. And that's why I think it's important to send the message on this topic that, you know, don't stand in the way, I think, for people of a sibling whose reconciliation attempts are going on. I mean, their memories may be very different. their sense of who the parent is, their level of forgiveness, you know. And it may have to be a little bit of a, present company excluded, but it might have to be a bit of a demilitarized zone among siblings. You know, this can be a tough thing.

And one of the things that a lot of the people who reconcile found is that some kind of professional counseling, if you're in this contemplation stage, do I really want to do this, both some kind of, of formal counseling, not that the other person's there, but just understanding why do I want this? Is it realistic? If I make an overture, will I be rejected? If I'm not rejected, and the relationship sucks, you know, how will I respond to it? So I think that kind of preparation. And also bringing in your other supporters. So I had a bunch of people who were ready to make

that contact with a long, estranged sibling or parent, and they engaged their spouse. there was some folks, I think, of one in particular where she was getting, you know, each time she would talk to her mother as they were reconciling, her partner would be in the room and he could sense when it was going beyond what she was going to be able to handle. So, I'm bringing in your allies. Interesting. Right. He'd be like, honey, I think we should make another pot of coffee. Should I go make another pot of coffee? Yep, I should. Yeah, exactly. Oh, he's like, oh, my hemorrhoids, honey, you're acting up. Because it is, you know, the one thing, I don't know if you've experienced this yet, you know, I get accused and there have been some, you know, call-ins to shows I've been on about like, well, you know, why do I sort of promote this reconciliation idea? And I'm really not. It's just what emerged from the research. I'd say one of the most interesting things I learned is that people describe the process of reconciliation, even if it didn't work out. So even if they tried it didn't work out.

as this really sort of enormous engine for personal growth, that it was kind of like a challenge or discipline. Like it was the hardest thing that some of them had ever did, the way you're describing it right now. It's kind of like that. And I had a surprising number of people to say, I mean, really with my parents, getting back into some relationship with them.

If I can do that, I can do anything. So there was this sense of like, of a major life challenge to overcome, Even if imperfect, that made them feel like really good about themselves and their other relationships. And that was even in cases where, you know, they gave the person one more chance. They tried. That's actually, if I can continue to juggernaut on for one more minute. One of the things that you might try and almost everybody who successfully reconciled did.

But they would often offer one last chance. And you might say, people would say to me, oh, no, I've done it again and again. But they would offer one last chance with very specific terms. Like, look, if you went back in, here's what has to happen. And there's one more chance. So you can't criticize my husband. You can't tell me how to raise my kids. I don't want to hear your political beliefs.

You know, we'll get together three times a year. They laid out very clear terms for what it was going to be like. And then they ended if it didn't work. And they protected themselves by those really clear boundaries. And that was really helpful. Because otherwise, the way you've been describing it, things get all mushy. So one thing could be nobody here is talking to the media about this during the period of time that we're trying to make this work. I mean, that's our restriction.

Right. You know, or like whatever it would be, some mutually agreed upon, this can't happen if we're going to try this. And that worked for a bunch of people. I mean, but nothing works for everybody, but that was a pretty good thing. And uncovering the lessons in my life, you know, looking at how to break certain patterns. One of the things that I found was creating boundaries was one of the hardest things for me. And how liberating it was when I actually allowed myself to have my own boundaries, right, of how to be treated or what I'm willing to accept from any. relationship or any friendship or any love relationship, right?

And I think that it directly does correlate with not having any understanding of boundaries with that parental figure at all. I think that's probably very true. Yeah. And so when you said that, that kind of rang, that in itself just as a practice, that would probably, I would assume be a huge step for someone to be able to reconcile with laying out those boundaries, it probably would feel quite empowering for them. Yeah, I mean, people would say, you know, I'm hanging up the phone if X happens or, and often

after someone's been estranged, especially from a child, they're pretty willing they're compromised. So, you know, it can at least be worth an attempt. And then you don't feel so guilty if, you know, if you've offered the person at least a chance. I want to kind of just dabble a little bit onto things that are a little bit darker. and harder to reconcile, like any kind of physical abuse or sexual abuse. These are things that, you know, we can sit here and talk about parental disputes that lead to abandonment or insecurities or whatever it is. But when you're dealing with actual abuse, how does one reconcile when they've been violated?

You know, it was very interesting because from our, from our broad scale surveys, but we found far fewer people for whom overt abuse was the actual cause, more generally negative, harsh parenting, you know, sort of bad parenting was a cause, that there were some, but, you know, but actually people who said the reason why I can never see this parent is because they were abusive was certainly there, but was small. smaller than I had expected. I think in those cases, there were some people who reconciled. I profile one woman in the book who was, whose father was a drug dealer. She had to become an emancipated minor because he was physically abusive. She was sexually abused by some of his drug dealing cohorts. She went through a whole lot of stuff. He changed.

He reformed. He'd gotten better, had gotten more stable. And she decided that she wanted a relationship with him. him, but she did an incredible amount of work on herself first, understanding why she wanted it, understanding, you know, really ascertaining that he was not like a dangerous person anymore. So there are some people who found that it was worthwhile, but that's one where I say, you know, the reconciliation isn't for everybody. Obviously, in any situation, there are people who are better off out of your own.

life. And especially if it's heavily traumatizing, I wouldn't recommend that people reach out to that kind of a parent unless they really do have professional help, gain understanding, have a lot of support. But there are people who definitely want to do it, who've had extremely adverse childhood experiences, but say, I still want this connection. But can you have reconciliation and without the other person, meaning with a situation like that where there is that kind of trauma and it's not safe and there has been no reform from the you know the person who has done the violating can you have that reconciliation for yourself to move forward can i admit one weakness of all this work it it is the one thing i just in the interest of full disclosure what my research

and the rest of the research literature unfortunately has not a lot of guidance for is people who are stuck in an estrangement and there really is no way out of it. Like, you know, the other person simply refuses either on one hand, the person really is an awful person. So you can't have contact with them, but they're still psychologically present for you, or the person just is a complete stonewaller. You know, the coping mechanisms for that are pretty much the coping mechanisms for any other loss, you know, to understand it, mourn it as a loss, get through it.

I would agree with you all over there were a number of people who said that cultivating an interior sense of forgiveness even without the other person was liberating. There's a lot of research on forgiveness now that does suggest that that's the case and might be the needed nationally as well as in families at this point. But there's not a lot of guidance or help for those folks, but I do think I would agree that this sense,

of like I like the way you put it internally reconciling with someone being open to forgiveness for them has helped a lot of people but it's tough to know when people are stuck in this and there's no willingness or ability to reconcile but they're just are not yet a lot of good solution how much are in-laws and do in-laws become a source of this of not I'm never speaking to my mother or father again based on how she's treating my husband or vice versa. So you've got the big global reasons for estrangements, like total value in personality differences or these harsh parenting. But there are two really concrete things that cause us an astonishing number of estrangements. One of them is over money and inheritance issues where a whole family split apart.

But what I call in the book, the problematic in-law is just way more prevalent than I have thought, that people get torn between their family of origin and family of marriage, and either the partner deliberately isolates a person from the family, or the family rejects the partner, or, you know, there are clashes of culture or, you know, personality difference. I will say one thing about those, those situations were more amenable to reconciliation. Either the person got lost the partner who really was a bad person and the family was right and the person gets reintegrated or it's one thing where, you know, look, if you're a parent of an adult child and you don't like your daughter-in-law or son-in-law, you simply aren't going to win that

battle. It's not a winnable battle. It's not, people aren't going to say, oh, yes, I'll get divorce so I can be around my mother more. So the parents have, or people have to adjust to this, you know, in-law. But yeah, it's a big one. It is a major precipitate. When you said financial, it's one of the things that I've been thinking about, you know, I, I mean, there's nothing fun about doing your will and doing your estate planning, right? And I've been doing mine since I was 18, since I got my first paycheck. I've always been on my will. And the other day, I was thinking about it.

I know. Where are you leaving shit to at 18? I had stuff that was important to me that if I died. Who got it? Well, you've got things in the will. No, no, I'm saying when you're 18, like, what do you like, leave my, like, white Jeep wrangler. No, I had, well, I had some funds because of, because I had been working.

I know, but who are you leaving that to? Well, I left it to, at that time, it was all of my brothers. And now it no longer belongs to you. But one of the things, I was always like, and this just happened to me recently where I was like thinking about mortality, more of my friends' parents are passing away, and it causes so much friction. And not only that, you can't mourn a parent. and it literally can break up a family.

Oh, it's so true. I don't know why people don't tell everybody ahead of time what the plan is. So here's a problem with Wills. Wills caused so many problems because, first of all, you're right. People I found in these studies, people had secret wills. Everybody thought that they were getting everything evenly and the entire business was left to a brother. It just destroyed the family.

But the problem with Wills, too, is not everything is divisible, right? But like, so you have three or four kids. One is, they leave everything to everybody equally. But what if somebody loves the leghouse? The only way it could be divided equally would be to sell it and give folks some money. Or people fight about things like this, you know, that grandfather clock brought over from Germany or the chip Thanksgiving platter that served every family's Thanksgiving turkey. Those can't be divided.

So I totally agree with you. And there are programs that can help people to think this out, really talking with your survivors and errors as to what they're going to get, who's going to get what. It's astonishing how long-lasting these flights over whales and inheritance are. And it's not just with already negative relationships. It's actually with relationships that were pretty good. it's so psychologically you know you're grieving already and then these things become whom mom loved more you know it's insane yeah and it also i mean i think that's where it's sort of revealed which is like you you

have all of these relationships you kind of in the back of your head you're like you you know it's the family dynamic that is could be at some point you know going to blow up at any second but then all of a sudden one parent passes away you read the will and if you're It, like, validates everything that one person would have felt and then it could tear, you know, a family apart. I felt like, I feel like that is a very interesting thing for people to get comfortable doing is talking about saying to your kids, hey, guys, I know this is weird, but let's go around the house. And if I died tomorrow, what do you really want? let's fight about it now while I'm here

yeah I like it you know you're all we're all going to be dead pick what you like well you know who's you the folks you'll find who are really resistant to that discussion are your kids I mean we've tried it because we have adult children

and no no you know they don't want to hear about it but it makes an older parent feel more secure totally I wouldn't think so so the one thing people can really do, in both, especially in the money situation, I have many people who were estranged as a result of that I said, really, we should have brought in a mediator. I mean, which is something you can, you know, people, like again, it's a little bit of the shame.

They don't want to do it. But many people said, you know, this would have been prevented, this 10-year estrangement fighting over the family business if we brought in an objective third party. I mean, in both, you know, I think the one thing, like, and I argue this in the book, it's based on some psychological research, that if it's around an in-law, if it's around inheritance, the best thing to do is to really sit and think up to do the imaginary exercise. What would an independent third party say about this situation who had everybody's interests in mind? if the family can even begin to discuss it that way of like oh you know okay what because again we talked about the power of our own narratives also writing from the other person's perspective that's what a third party would say don't let Oliver be the one making any money decisions why not

Vegas you go to Vegas and you put it on black you double it up all he's like look there's this really great investment double it up i yeah no i i think that's really right you know the people make these things now that's true i uh see um for me it would be blackjack but yeah i you know no i feel like i could double my retirement income in my spouse don't let him don't let him get in there carl don't let him convince you carl do it i got i'm doing it okay but what you guys it's so great now so your your relationship seems really terrific You know? Well, speaking of non-estrangement.

No, yeah, it's been good. But it's interesting, though, because there's no estrangement, but there was a period of time where we were not connecting or talking much at all just because of our lives were just doing different things, you know. But there was no resentment. There was no estrangement. It just was not connected. Well, that's a piece of estrangement to this drifting apart,

because that is a pattern, at least in our culture, that, you know, you're close to your siblings as you're growing up. Then you have what could be referred to as intimacy at a distance. And then people kind of come back together first when they themselves have kids, but then when parents get sick. And, you know, I do feel that people don't realize that you have to do some maintenance on these sibling relationships often, or they can easily go by the wayside as people get busy. Great point.

And as I've had many older people tell me in my studies, Nobody really knows you as well as your sister, like, you're going to, or your brother, and you're going to want them around later on in life. So, you know, I think that's the estrangement thing. I say in the book that I wish people in their family lives had what was here in central New York, you know, we had the Iroquoination, which had the seventh generation principle, like act like what you're going to do now is consider how it will. affect seven generations hence. People make these hot-headed decisions in families and don't think, gee, would I like to have these people around 30 years from now? Or would I like my kids to know their cousins or to know their grandparents or, you know,

to have my kids have an uncle or an aunt? So that's something I might leave listeners with, you know, is to think about what, think about like long-term consequences of these things you're doing. There's one thing that we didn't mention that maybe would be worthwhile if you feel like it. I've been, well, I've been, you know, because I work in this area, it's been impossible to avoid endlessly people, you know, describing to me the political rifts in their own families. Oh, yes. And I would have prior, I mean, I sort of have a pre and a post. I mean, prior to the most recent events, I had pretty clear advice.

that what a lot of people find works is creating kind of a political demilitarized zone, operating on a simple principle. Can I possibly change this person's mind? If there's no possibility of changing the person's mind, then simply avoid it. I mean, you know, talk about what you're binge watching. And it takes some discipline, but people can be very firm.

Like, you know, if we start to talk about the election, I won't stay. And it's really worked for a lot of people. If they're, you know, just this notion, there's some things that you just can't talk about, and this is one of them, and people still want to love their families. One thing we know about human beings and all of our relationships, opposites don't, opposites may attract, but they don't make lasting relationships. So we tend to like people who are pretty much like ourselves, and especially in terms of core values.

And that operates in families. so that you can be friends with somebody who doesn't share your values, but it's effortful. You know, it takes planning and effort and reminding yourselves that, you know, you love this person as a kid or whatever. Yeah. It's challenging, but, you know, I haven't found any recommendable strategy in families, you know, other than, you know, avoidance if it's at all possible. Before we head out, I do want to end.

On a speed round. Who's your celebrity crush? I would love to end with one, like what would be, and I know this is so hard because there's a lot, but to all of our listeners, we have a lot of listeners who, you know, I mean, they write in all the time, they talk about their connections with their family,

whether they're positive ones, their siblings, or, you know, challenging ones. What would be the one piece of advice that you would give to our listeners about, their, you know, family or if anybody's, you know, in the situation of trying to reconcile. I would encourage people in the following situation to think carefully. If you're estranged from someone after years or decades and that person wants back in and it's not a dangerous or damaging situation, if someone is asking for one last chance,

I would give it to them. And if someone offers you another chance, I would take it. I think in general for people, it helps them to have a certain kind of family connection, no matter how tenuous. It helps make them feel like their life is well lived and like they are a complete person. So it may not work out, but I would argue for almost anyone, if you're in an estrangement, ponder giving it a chance under protected conditions, understanding your boundaries, et cetera. You know, I've talked to hundreds of people

who didn't regret that choice, even if it didn't work out. And I just think, look, I mean, our world is filled with divisions and difficulties politically and socially. The one place in which we have some control is in our families. And why not take that opportunity

if you possibly can? Thank you, Carl. Carl, your book is called Fault Lines, fractured families and how to mend them. Thank you so much for coming on and talking to us. I still didn't get your first celebrity crush. There we are. My first celebrity crush.

It might be Mary Ann from Billy good time. I mean, that would be a possibility. I think that might have been one of the earliest ones. And then when I got old enough to really know, it was totally severe. Oh, yeah. Oh. This has been really amazing. I loved it.

Thank you so much. I feel like I've known you for a long time. I know. I just really admire how you thought about it, considered it, you know, and are working through it. It's really great. Awesome. You're kind of models for my readers.

Yes. All right. Thanks, folks. Thank you, Carl. Sibling Revelry is executive produced by Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson. Producer is Allison Bresden. Editor is Josh Windish. Music by Mark Hudson, aka Uncle Mark.

If you want to show us some love, rate the show and leave us a review. This show is powered by Simplecast. I'm Jorge Ramos. And I'm Paola Ramos. Together we're launching The Moment, a new podcast about what it means to live through a time as uncertain as this one. We sit down with politicians, artists and activists, to bring you death and analysis from a unique Latino person. The moment is a space for the conversations we've been having as father and daughter for years. Listen to The Moment with Jorge Ramos and Paola Ramos on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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