Sibling Revelry with Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson - The Secret Struggles of Boys and Men

Episode Date: December 10, 2025

When did masculinity become synonymous with toxicity? That’s just one of the topics covered in this candid man-to-man convo with Oliver and ‘Of Boys and Men’ author Richard Reeves. They get real about what it means to be a father-figure and what every boy-mom needs to know. Plus, find out what teen boys won't tell you about unless you do THIS! Learn more about the American Institute for Boys and Men at https://aibm.org/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. December. December is when we really slow down as a family. So Colorado is always happening, of course. But we go first half, a little snow, the second half, maybe a little sun, thinking about maybe Mexico,

maybe some Cabo San Lucas, and staying in a home on Airbnb makes trips like that so much more personal. It feels like you are a part of the neighborhood. If you're heading out this holiday season, think about hosting your own home on Airbnb with a co-host network. With a co-host network, you can have a local expert handle everything from guest communication to styling your space.

Find a co-host at Airbnb.ca.ca. slash host. If a Lenovo gaming computer is on your holiday list, don't shop around. Just go directly to the source, Lenovo.com. It's your last chance to score exclusive deals on the gaming PCs you want, like the Lenovo Legion Tower 5 Gen 10 gaming desktop and Lenovo Lock Gaming laptop. So avoid all that shopping, chaos, and price comparing, and just go directly to the source. It's Lenovo.com, where PCs are up to 35% off. That's Lenovo.com.

Lenovo, Lenovo. I'm Stefan Curry, and this is Gentleman's Cut. I think what makes Gentleman's Cut different is me being a part of developing the profile of this beautiful finished product with every sip you get a little something different. Visit Gentleman'scut Bourbon.com or your nearest Total Wines or Bevmo.

This message is intended for audiences 21 and older. Gentleman's Cut Bourbon, Boone County, Kentucky. For more on Gentleman's Cut Bourbon, please visit gendelmanscutturbin.com. Please enjoy responsibly. Hey there, Dr. Jesse Mills here. I'm the director of the men's clinic at UCLA,

and I want to tell you about my new podcast called The Mail Room. And I'm Jordan, the show's producer. And like most guys, I haven't been to the doctor in way too long. I'll be asking the questions we probably should be asking, but aren't. Every week, we're breaking down the world of men's health from testosterone and fitness to diets and fertility. We'll talk science without the jargon and get your real answers to the stuff you actually wonder about.

So check out the mailroom on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. Hey, everybody, it's Chuck and Josh from the Stuff You Should Know podcast, and it's that time of year again when we knuckle down to do our annual holiday episodes. We collected our best past classic holiday episodes and compiled them into a 12 Days of Christmas Toys playlist that the whole family can enjoy. That's right. Maybe you missed it the first time we detailed the history of Beanie Babies, Monopoly, or Yo-Yo's, and a whole lot more. So listen to the 12 Days of Christmas

Toys playlist on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Kate Hudson. And my name is Oliver Hudson. We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationship. And what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling reveree. No, no. Sibling reverie. Don't do that with your mouth. Sibling reverie.

That's good. Oliver Hudson here. We already have our guests waiting in the waiting room, so I don't want to be too long-winded here. But I'm not going to talk about my life because I'm going to talk about my life with Richard Reeves. Richard Reeves is our guest. I saw him. I think it was on CNN.

I'm not sure. He wrote a book. It's called Of Boys and Men, Why the Modern Male is Struggling, Why It Matters, and what to do about it. He hits upon all of these really amazing subject matter. He talks about toxic masculinity. He seems to be sort of spouting the things off that I believe. and that I talked about with my friends about boys and men, and I have two boys of my own. And he founded the American Institute for Boys and Men, the AIBM.

And I just want to get into it with him. I want to talk all about this because I'm very, very fascinated. And I'm grateful that he's agreed to come on. So bring him in, man. Let's chat. How are you doing? Good. How are you?

I'm great. Thank you for indulging me. This is exciting. I saw you. I can't remember where it was, whether it was on CNN or you were talking just, you know, about boys and men and toxic masculinity and the importance of it all. And I have two boys myself, 18 and 15. And everything that you were saying was resonating with me. And, you know, I was like, man, can I talk to Richard?

I wonder if he'll talk to me. And so I'm very grateful that you took the time to come and have a chat. with me. Yeah, likewise. Very happy to do this. I mean, first of all, just we'll get to why I am excited to have this conversation because it's something that I've been thinking about, especially since sort of the Me Too movement, having boys who have grown up in sort of that environment where yes, you know, it was great that the pendulum did swing. But as with everything, it seems like that pendulum swings very, very far and watching my boys grow up in that world and them trying to understand what it's like to be a boy and have these sort of feelings of just masculinity,

of puberty, of just advancing, and how they had to sort of navigate this world was really interesting to me. And I would ask them questions about it, but they're kids. And they're like, I don't know. They just give me that kind of an answer. But going back, though, just about your life where did you grow up and did you have siblings and what was sort of that home life like for you yeah yeah it is so i grew up in peterborough just north of london and uh had you know great parents in fact um an older brother a younger sister and my actually i was asked by theo von when i was in his podcast about my relationship with my dad and i just said without thinking about it well I've never for a moment doubted my father's love for me.

And he said, I wonder what that feels like because he hasn't had that experience. And I came away from that exchange with him thinking three things. One, what an extraordinary blessing that is. And I kind of knew it, but also just felt it in a new way, just what it means at the core of you to know, have an absolute certainty of your father's love. Secondly, I saw the pain in him, having not had it. And the third thing I thought was, my God, I hope my three sons feel well more than anything else. If I passed anything on, I just like, I want my three boys to know, have the same certainty. So I don't even have to ask themselves the question, right?

Does that one thing? Right. That's, that would be, that's what I want. That's, yes, of course. And, you know, I've come from a divorced family, you know, my sister and I, we have some halves now. but you know when I was five divorced then my stepdad came into my life um and I guess of course there was questions of whether my dad had that sort of unconditional love for me as I've gotten older I've got I've had you know gained a better relationship with him and I know his struggles I know what

he went through you know passing on these patterns you know from his childhood because his father left him when he was five years old he didn't have any of the resources to learn to cope with what that meant for him, dealing with his feelings. So essentially he was just recreating and mimicking these patterns and I was sort of the victim of it. At the same time, I, at 16, was adamant about not repeating that and wanting to be the greatest dad ever. But it's weird because I do believe that my dad, my real dad does have that love for

even though he hasn't shown it. Even though we have no real connection as far as a relationship goes, we text and we talk now and again. But I wonder why. I wonder if that's delusional. Do you feel it? You must feel it. I do because I understand and I have compassion for what he went through.

And even within the texts and sort of his, a bit of remorse, it feels like it's there. It's just hard for him to sort of truly express, you know, whereas my stepdad has created that for me, has given me that love from a male, you know, from a father, which is what I consider him. But I guess I wonder, the question is, does it matter where it comes from if it's a biological love or if it's stepfather love? Yeah, I mean, I think that the answer is that.

probably it's easiest and most ideal if it comes from your biological father, right? That's just because he's probably the one who's most likely to be there and be around. But the evidence that I've looked at suggests that what really matters is that you feel it from someone. And that you can, I mean, there's a reason why we use the term father figure quite frequently. How often have you heard anyone say mother figure? She was a real mother figure to me. That's not a very commonly used phrase, but people will say he was a father figure to me. And what I think that means is that to some extent,

like it's that that sense of social fathering, whatever it can be called and be done by other men. But I think it has to be done and it has to be done by men. And I think sometimes feel like we get trapped between this world where it's like it has to be a biological father. It can only be a biological father in a nuclear family and woe beside anybody that doesn't do it that way, right? And the people who kind of say,

we don't need dads anymore. You know, we got it from here. Thanks for the last 10,000 years. guys, we got it from here. And actually, there's kind of benches all fathers and says there isn't anything intrinsically valuable about what men bring to the parenting exercise. And that's just flat wrong and very disempowering. And so finding that middle ground, which is saying, yeah, men matter and families come in different shapes and sizes is, I think, the truth. And I think the evidence bears that out. Like, dads matter. But dads can be step dads. Dads can also be like,

also you get mentors. We've written this piece from, one of our board members who kind of talked about his scout leader, his principal and his pastor, in his case, being the three black men who kind of showed him what it meant to be a man because his own dad wasn't around. So, like, it doesn't even not have to be one person either. It can be different people in your life, got in different roles, but it does have to be adults who care for you and love you. And it's a, you know, the phrase, it takes a village to raise a child. I think that's true, but the thing I would add is, and some of the villages have to be men. why do you think men for the most part fathers father figures have you know sort of been looked at as

not a throwaway but just not as important i think because we have treated fathering itself and that male parenting role as secondary to the female mothering role and that can lead to either a super progressive view which means okay so we don't need dads at all thank you as i said we've got it from here Or the kind of super reactionary one, which is like absolutely dads are completely different. I mean, you have to have them in traditional nuclear families where dad's the head of the household and mom knows her place and all of that. And so, right, and now, of course, the rest of us are just trying to make it work in this difficult new world in between those two extremes. Yeah. I mean, did you like when you got interested in this subject matter, which I want to get into, but did you go deep?

Did you look back? I mean, was there historical elements to all this primal elements to it, you know, because, is the gender roles, I guess, have evolved and they're always evolving. We're always evolving. You know, so it probably looked a lot different 150 years ago than it does today. So did you take all of that into account and to sort of come up with your beliefs and what you think about right now? Yeah. And again, the trick here is to acknowledge that there are some things that are to use your word primal and that some of those

will be different on average between men and women and to allow those to somehow be determinative, right? To say what to be prescriptive, right? And because people are so afraid that if you acknowledge any differences that's primal level between say men and women

or mothers and fathers, you're somehow going to use that as a cudgel to beat women back down again, right? And say, yes, you see. And I understand that fear. the legitimate fear, given the long arc of human history. But the trouble is that fear leads people to kind of just not acknowledge those differences. And that makes you sound honestly just that shit crazy. I'm very taken by this book, Oymann, by Ruth Whitman. And you know I like

it because she criticizes me in the book, but I still love her, but I love her book. And she's like a good feminist who has boys and then is led to the conclusion that there are actually some differences that are not just socialized, right? And I think that's just true. And when it comes to sort of fathering, I think there is, you know, there's, there's just a different role that we bring. Of course, most of what we do is the same. But there are some differences.

Like, I think dads do bring something a little bit different to the parenting enterprise. And so do moms. And we can talk about kind of what those are, but I think the kind of point is just to say that has to be possible without that being read as a reactionary move, right? It's like, where is he going with this? Is he going in a reactionary or traditional direction? I think that's the trap that too many people have ended up in, which is that we somehow feel that we can't honor the different roles that men and fathers play

without that somehow signaling that we want to retreat on women. That's just not true. Yeah, no, I know. I know. I would always say, you know, when I read a little bit about how you, you know, just the toxic masculinity, and before I even read anything or knew anything about you, I would always say, you know, the sad thing is it feels like the word masculine masculinity has a negative connotation now, just generally, you know, because that toxic just, you know, even

if it's not in front of it, it seems to just sort of, you know, appear in front of it. Right. It's implied. Which is bullshit, you know, and it frustrates me sometimes. Masculinity is amazing. It's great. It's a great thing to have, you know. But saying why it's great is really hard. And I actually had this experience. to the friend recently who told me that her teenage daughter was at home with her around the dinner table and this this mom who I know she just used the word masculinity in some context right in relation to something else and her daughter said do you mean toxic masculinity and the mom said no no I just mean masculinity and the girl what do you mean masculinity you mean toxic masculinity and it

became clear that this 16 year old had never heard the word masculinity without the term attached to it, which is fair enough, because that's all we've heard for the last 10 years. And so I don't blame her, but it actually has led to a place now where you're right, you don't even need the modifier anymore. Yeah. You actually, there's good survey evidence now that people just have negative views about masculinity, period. And then you wonder why so many of our boys and young men are feeling somewhat lost

and somewhat unsure their place in the world because we've created a negative frame, a deficit-based frame. I mean, I always just think, like, I've raised three. boys, the idea that my goal was to make them not toxic. Can you imagine that? It's like, here's an inspiring vision to you boys. Imagine the world where you're not poisonous. I mean, that's, that's what, meanwhile we're saying to the girls, you go girl, girls on the run, you know, girls, girls are magic, the future's female, you know, etc. So we've got this massively empowering message. And then we're saying to the boys,

don't be toxic. Yeah. Really? That's the best we got. December, man, this is one of my favorite months, my favorite winter month for sure. Christmas is coming, and it's such a special month. It's when my family and I really, really slow down, celebrate being together. We've been talking about heading to Japan, of all places. My sons are obsessed with anime. They want to go to Japan. So we're thinking about it. We're in Colorado. There's no doubt. But after Colorado, we are thinking about Japan. The kids are very excited about skiing Hokkaido, which is incredible snow. I've seen it all over social media. I've been looking at videos, exploring Tokyo's neighborhoods and eating their weight in ramen.

Trips like that are truly unforgettable. And what makes it even better is staying at a place on Airbnb where you can get that authentic local feel. It's not just about the sites. It's about living the experience together. And if you're traveling this holiday season, it is a perfect time to think about hosting your own home on Airbnb. The best part is you don't have to do it all by yourself. With Airbnb's co-host network, you can hire a local co-host to manage everything. While you're away, find a co-host at

Airbnb.ca.ca slash host. If a Lenovo gaming computer is on your holiday list, don't shop around. Just go directly to the source, Lenovo.com. It's your last chance to score exclusive deals on the gaming PCs you want, like the Lenovo Legion Tower 5 Gen 10 gaming desktop

and Lenovo Lock Gaming laptop. So avoid all that shopping chaos and price comparing, and just go directly to source, Lenovo.com, where PCs are up to 35% off. That's Lenovo.com. Linovo, Lenovo. Being a parent is basically a juggling act. Dinner, hockey practice, homework, a last-minute science project,

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Two brothers, one devout household, two radically different paths. Gabe Ortiz became one of the highest ranking law enforcement officers in Texas. 32 years, total law enforcement experience. But his brother Larry, he stayed behind and built an entirely different legacy. He was the head of this gang, and nobody was going to tell him what to do. You're going to push that line for the calls. Took us under his wing and showed us the game, as they call it. When Larry is murdered, Gabe was forced to confront the past he tried to leave behind

and uncover secrets he never saw coming. My dad had a whole other life that we never knew about. Like, my mom started screaming my dad's name, and I just heard, one gunshot. The Brothers Ortiz is a gripping true story about faith, family, and how two lives can drift so far apart and collide in the most devastating way. Listen to the Brothers Ortiz on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey there, Dr. Jesse Mills here. I'm the director of the men's clinic at UCLA Health. And I want to tell you about my new podcast called The Mailroom. And I'm Jordan, the show's producer. And like a lot of guys, I haven't been to the doctor in many years. I'll be asking the questions we probably should be asking, but aren't.

Because guys usually don't go to the doctor unless a piece of their face is hanging off or they've broken a bone. Depends which bone. Well, that's true. Every week, we're breaking down the unique world of men's health, from testosterone and fitness to diets and fertility and things that happen in the bedroom. You mean sleep? Yeah, something like that, Jordan. We'll talk science without the jargon and get you real answers to the stuff you actually wonder. about. It's going to be fun, whether you're 27, 97, or somewhere in between. Men's Health is

about more than six packs and supplements. It's about energy, confidence, and connection. We don't just want you to live longer. We want you to live better. So check out the mailroom on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. How did you come to this? How did you get involved with this? Because this was, you know, this wasn't your main focus from the beginning of time when you started a career and, you know, how did you come to this? Is it after raising your kids? It's partly that. So what was happening was that in my day job, as a think tank scholar, I was working on most issues of like education, employment, in the inequality, basically. And I kept seeing these data points showing a lot of men

were doing really badly. And I kept seeing these data points. What were some of those data points, by the way, like how would those play out? I'll give you one. So when the pandemic first hit in the US, the college enrollment rate for men dropped seven times more than for women, seven times more. And I noticed that in the table from the government kind of release and then went around, I was at the Brookings Institution, the think tank showing it to all my colleagues who work on education and saying, did you know this? And they're like, no, none of them knew about it. And it's because it was buried in like table two. but I was like, isn't that kind of a story? Like, I actually didn't really go down for women, but it cratered for men.

Isn't that a story? Why is no one covering this? Why is no one writing about this? And it became clear that it was no one saw it as their job to draw attention to it, including the people in the Department for Education. But there were no think tanks. There were no scholars. There were no journalists whose job it was to look at that data and say,

wow, massive been dropping male college enrollment. Now, if it had been the other way around, there would have been lots of coverage right it would have been it would have been wall to wall and that's because there are lots of people whose job it was to draw attention to it so I'll scratch her head and say well it's because no one's job

no one feels to be their job and in fact anybody who does draw attention to it runs the risk of being immediately dismissed as a reactionary and then I'd go home and my boys are talking about the fact that their high school had just been on national news for being a cradle of toxic masculinity

it's like wait what happened And the story was that a boy had made a list of girls that they fancied. And part of my lesson about that is, like, we're mistaking toxic masculinity for teenage masculinity, right? And so, like, when you're a teenage girl, boy or girl, you might make lists like that, right? And it might be, you know, appropriately or inappropriately shared or whatever. But then you grow up. And so, like, I don't think I should be making lists of that in my, at the brooky. institutions, right? And I think that I, and I think I would quite rightly be called to account

if I did, right? But, but I'm, but I'm not 15. Yeah. And so that's the point is that like, and it's just the, the overreaction to those things has actually, I think, ended up really creating this strong counterreaction among a lot of people, especially among a lot of boys and young men, who look, they don't get it. They, they want to be good people. They, they, they, they want to be good people. They are not misogynists. They're not coming back to a world where they had this entitlement. They just don't want to be told that they're the problem as they get. And they're kind of over it. And I do think that people are kind of realizing that there's a balance to be struck here between correctly holding people to account and basically kind of tarring,

you know, all teenage boys with the brush of toxic masculinity. No, I know. It's interesting. it's almost like we've forgotten what humanity is like. We're just forgotten biology, just straight biology. We've forgotten what it's like to be a teenage boy. I mean, like, those of us who were teenage boys can kind of remember sort of what it was like, you know, when the floodgates of testosterone kind of rushing through you. And it's super interesting. I find it very interesting that some of the people who are most progressive on this issue

actually are denying the witness of many trans men who've had testosterone shots and so on who then talk about how that changes their psychology including with relation to things like this. And so it's very interesting to me that well, on the one hand, we don't allow for that difference in biology in sort of boys and girls in adolescence,

but then we demand very strongly that we pay attention to it when it comes to the trans issues, which by the way I support. And so you can't have it both ways. Either biology matters or it doesn't. Do you think because of sort of the landscape that we live in and the culture that we're sort of existing through right now that people are trying to find a balance

or trying to figure out what the right level is? And it's just sort of a learning experience that eventually will even out. I think so. I mean, I'm optimistic. I think that there's, because young people are figuring it out, and what I see among young men in particular is, like, they remain as committed as ever to gender equality, right? They want their sisters and their female friends to have equal opportunity. They do. Yes. There's no change in that, right? But they also, like, have their own issues and their own challenges, and they don't want to be pathologized. They don't want to be told that they're the problem. And they're figuring it out. They're finding ways through this. It's messy. I actually think it's middle-aged adults imposing their own ideological. views from left and right that's causing the problem. I think most people are just in good faith

trying to figure it out. So, for example, there's recent evidence that kind of fathers are doing more, you know, more looking after kids, right? Every year it just goes up and that went up among Republican families just as much as Democrat families. There's no division. So quietly, men and women are just figuring this out

in their actual family lives and every county's going to be different. But like, which is doing it. And meanwhile, you've got the culture warriors of like left and right. Like, urging us to the barricades and persuading young women that their problem is young men and persuading young men that their problem is young women. But in fact, they both face similar problems, which is how to buy a house, get a job, you know, find someone to raise a family with, make a living, raise kids, and be happy, right? That's actually what people want.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so when you had this incident with your son, was that sort of the impetus for you to say, you know what, let me look deeper into this. Let me actually make this a part of my life, my research, my next book. No, I mean, I was already on the path towards that, but it did help me. It did, but it did help with my, it did, what it did do was it, it, it hardened my resolve to write about this issue of toxic masculinity and how the progressive left has made a series of errors on this issue over the last 10 years. I then have equal criticism for those on the right, of course, but like, I was just,

like, because here's what I felt was like, privately, most people, were just like, are you kidding me all this? Really? But publicly, no one was willing to say that. And so what I came to realize was that there were a lot of people worried about their sons, thinking that some of this stuff was actually damaging to their sons, that we weren't telling a good story. And they were all thinking this privately and talking about it,

but no one was really willing to, basically, in a positive way. And so that actually gave me, so the honest version of this story is that as I became determined to write about this, every single cost. colleague lined up to tell me not to, and every single publisher turned me down. Is it because of the potential backlash? I mean, you're literally, you're literally proving a theory right there without even writing a word. It's like they don't want to touch it because. Yeah, and that was at a particular moment. So it's 2021. It's like a moment of great sensitivity, et cetera. But I also kind of thought, I thought, look, if people like me, as boring as I am,

like I have charts. I have research studies. I'm pretty even handed here. I'm very interested in increasing the share of technical high schools and improving mental health services and that kind of stuff. Like boring solutions focused stuff. Like if I can't talk about boys and men, who's going to? And then you can't complain if other people who aren't like that are talking about it.

And actually one of the sound bites for my new think tank, so I create a new think tank, the American Institute for Boys and Men's. Yeah, I want to talk about that. Very cool. One of our internal mottoes is keep it boring. And my son overheard me saying that one day. And he said, well, you're the man for that job, dad. High praise.

I said that's high praise. I'm trying to keep this boring. I'm trying to make this boring. I actually want there to be just solutions rather than culture war stuff. Yeah. And when you created this think tank, you know, how did that come about? and was it a difficult thing to start where people a little bit hesitant

to become a part of it because of what you were talking about? A little bit. I mean, by then I'd broken some of the ground with the book. And so I think the tide was moving a little bit. And honestly, it's just think the stuff I did like in the book

and you're very kind about it, but I think all I did was just sort of state facts. All I did was sort of say to people, you know, that thing you're saying, seeing and feeling about how boys of the men are doing, you're right and you're not alone, and here's the data to prove it, right? And so

all it did was really correct mission space to say, oh, and I think the relief that people had, which is like, oh, thank God, you mean we can talk about this? I didn't know we could talk about this, but this boring Brookings guy talking about it, so it must be safe to talk about it now. And so in a way, like I kind of diffused

it a little bit, I think, precisely through that exercise. But yeah, even then, it was a bit difficult to persuade people initially not so much actually got funding but to come and work for me partly because it's a new organization and it's a bit of uncertainty but also yeah there's still this sort of men's rightsy feel to it even now when you say I work the American Institute for boys and men people kind of like are you the ones that hate women I go no we're not the ones that hate women but the truth is this is back to where we were a minute ago Oliver is that like unless

someone is waking up every day doing the research looking at the data like come back to example I had before. And I'll give you one other example, like there was a sevenfold difference in college enrollment, but also we saw a huge increase in suicide rates among young men. Wow. So the suicide rate is four times higher among men and boys of all ages and women. But between 2010 and 23, among young men aged under 30, that rate has risen by a stir. And again, the CDC put that data out and nobody covered it. Nobody analyzed it. No one did press races on it.

No one was like, it was no one's job to say, whoa, did you see that? The male suicide rate went up because there was no American Institute for Boys and Men, right? And so unless it's someone's job to be noticing this stuff and drawing attention to it, then we can hardly be surprised if people don't know about it. And so I just sort of drew inspiration from the many women's organizations to do a really good job of drawing attention to the issues facing women and girls. including during the pandemic, by the way, and just said, okay, that's great. I love that work. But if we don't have similar institutions doing the same for boys and men,

they were always going to get an asymmetry in our awareness of what's going on. And that asymmetry creates a lack of awareness. But when the problems are real, then real people's lives, but they're not being talked about, that creates a dangerous vacuum. So the idea of the Institute is to just fill that vacuum. Yes, amazing. And then what are we looking for? What are some of these sort of feelings that they're having where they're maybe don't feel worthy or they have lack of self-love?

And then the age group, I'm curious about as well. You know, when are we most susceptible? And how long does that continue? I mean, can you be 75 years old and still feel less than? Yeah. Yeah. And in fact, just to stay on suicide participants for a minute, like the gap in suicide race. among the over 85s, you know, 75 is the biggest of all, I think it's like, well-fold.

I think that the connective tissue here is that sense of being needed, knowing that you're wanted and having a role to play. And so I think the thing that everyone needs is to know that they're needed. I think we all need to be needed, right? We know that, like, I'm sure, like, for you to know that your sons need you, that your wife needs you, that your wife needs you, that your, colleagues need you, that your community needs you, that the, you know, civic group, church group, whatever, needs you to show up on Saturday to do that thing, right? Actually, that sense of being needed, I think, is the core of mental health. And it's why when you look at, and Fiona Shand, a researcher looked at,

what are the words that men use to describe themselves before they take their own lives? And the two most commonly used words were worthless and useless. And so I think what happens is if we're not careful, we send a message to men, and especially young men, that we're not sure we need you. Like, we needed your dad to be the breadwinner, right? We needed your granddad to be the industrial worker, whatever. But now it's a new world, right? 40% of the breadwinners are women. And we've moved away from industrial economy.

Thankfully, there's pure wars to fight now, so we're not sure we need you to go to war. Do we need you? what are you necessary for? Like more in doubt at a book with a funny title Are Men Necessary? But actually behind that

it's a real question that every culture has to answer which is why are men necessary? Why do we need men? Not despite being men, but because they're men. And the result of that sense of just detachment,

disconnection. So I'll give you a stat like among men age 20 to 24, a tenth of them, 10% of them are not in school or in work. They're not earning. or learning. We don't really know what they're doing.

Well, that's like, that's the decimation of a generation. And so we can't, like, those young men are in real danger, I think. And back to your original question, the second part of your question is that I think that those late teen adolescent years into the 20s, like if you get the years 16 to 15 to 25 roughly rise, and you got, and you lock into a job,

you lock into a sense of purpose, you lock into a trajectory, then I think your chances are pretty good, but also that's where we lose a lot of young men too. Yeah, I think men are also emotionally evolving to our vulnerability now is seen as more of a superpower than it is something that is looked at as weak. And we associate our sense of well-being

with providing and with a job and all of those sort of tactile things. when we can be needed for emotional things now. You know, we can be needed for a shoulder or wisdom or something rather than just sort of that masculine male role that we're so used to. You know, so it's almost like if you can get in touch with sort of who you are and be okay with how your emotions and your vulnerability and the way you feel, you can provide in a different way. I love the way you put that, provide in a different way. You can be providing something else. I mean, actually one of the tests in back to your earlier question about historically,

like I was really looking into the anthropology and history and evolutionary psychology around masculinity. And the consensus really was that in most societies, a boy becomes a man when he produces more than he needs for his own survival. Now, it uses more of what? More food, more money, more energy, more, love. But in a sense, you're generating a surplus, right? You're actually, you're generative. You're producing more. Now, of course, that's true of women, too.

But in the case of women, because they actually reproduce for, they do the, you know, the grown and give birth to a feed the babies, right? Their generativity, the way that they're contributing is like much more obvious and much more, in a sense, biologically fixed. For men, it has to be more social. It's more cultural. And so actually, it's like, you're providing more than you need for yourself. That's what it means to be a man in most cultures.

And that's what most rights of passage have also been about, which is like, okay, now you're going to generate more than you need for yourself because the tribe needs you to generate more. So it's just that in, you know, 2025 in an urban environment, in an advanced economy, that's going to look very different. to how it looked even 100 years ago, certainly 500 years ago, and certainly 5,000 years ago, right? That's going to be very different for men. And actually, that's why the male role evolves even more than a female role, right?

Because actually, because the female role always has this fixed issue about, well, we produce the babies, right? It doesn't mean that women aren't doing a million other things as well. I don't want to be misunderstood. Of course, for men, it's always a little bit more constructed. It's always a little bit more like, okay, so what does it mean to be a protection?

actor and a provider today, Oliver, because it's not going to look the same as it did 100 years ago. It might be protecting your kids from some of the online dangers by understanding their online life, playing video games with them, teaching them how to navigate the online world in a way that actually gets the benefits of that world, but also makes them aware of some of the dangers of that online world too. That's more helpful now than teaching them how to fire a lion, or bowhunt and elf right actually being able to navigate reddit is more important than shouldn't rain deer oh december man this is one of my favorite months my favorite winter month for sure

Christmas is coming and it's such a special month it's when my family and I really really slow down celebrate being together We've been talking about heading to Japan, of all places. My sons are obsessed with anime. They want to go to Japan. So we're thinking about it. We are in Colorado. There's no doubt.

But after Colorado, we are thinking about Japan. The kids are very excited about skiing Hokkaido, which is incredible snow. I've seen it all over social media. I've been looking at videos, exploring Tokyo's neighborhoods, and eating their weight in a ramen. Trips like that are truly unforgettable. And what makes it even better is staying at a place on Airbnb. where you can get that authentic local feel. It's not just about the sites.

It's about living the experience together. And if you're traveling this holiday season, it is a perfect time to think about hosting your own home on Airbnb. The best part is you don't have to do it all by yourself. With Airbnb's co-host network, you can hire a local co-host to manage everything. While you're away, find a co-host at Airbnb.ca slash host. If a Lenovo gaming computer is on your holiday list,

don't shop around. Just go directly to the source, Lenovo.com. your last chance to score exclusive deals on the gaming PCs you want like the Lenovo Legion Tower 5 Gen 10 gaming desktop and Lenovo Locke gaming laptop. So avoid all that shopping chaos and price comparing

and just go directly to the source Lenovo.com, where PCs are up to 35% off. That's Lenovo.com. Being a parent is basically a juggling act. Dinner, hockey practice, homework, a last minute science project,

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They even have 15-minute recipes. Perfect for those nights when everyone's hungry and patience is officially off the menu. And with so many options, even my pickiest eater found something they loved, which means no more backup mac and cheese. Try HelloFresh today and get 50% off the first box with free shipping. Go to HelloFresh.com.combe rescue 50. That's Hellofresh.ca promo code Rescue 50. Dad had the strong belief that the devil was attacking us.

Two brothers, one devout household, two radically different paths. Gabe Ortiz became one of the highest-ranking law enforcement officers in Texas. 32 years, total law enforcement experience. But his brother Larry, he stayed behind and built an entirely different legacy. He was the head of this gang, and nobody was going to tell him what to do. You're going to push that line for the cause. Took us under his wing and showed us the game, as they call it. When Larry is murdered, Gabe is forced to confront the past he tried.

tried to leave behind and uncover secrets he never saw coming. My dad had a whole other life that we never knew about. Like, my mom started screaming my dad's name, and I just heard one gunshot. The Brothers Ortiz is a gripping true story about faith, family, and how two lives can drift so far apart and collide in the most devastating way. Listen to the Brothers Ortiz on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Stefan Curry, and this is Gentleman's Cut. I think what makes Gentleman's Cut different is me being a part of developing the profile of this beautiful finished product. With every sip, you get a little something different.

Visit gentlemen's cut bourbon.com or your nearest Total Wines or Bevmo. This message is intended for audiences 21 and older. Gentleman's Cut Bourbon, Boone County, Kentucky. For more on Gentleman's Cut Bourbon, please visit gentlemen's cut bourbon.com. Please enjoy responsibly. again raising boys i do have a little girl as well but you know i it's almost like i've worked purely off of instinct doing the best that you can i always say it's not if you're fucking them up it's to what degree you are because we just don't you know we're trying our best i have a

certain way of doing things i remember what it's like kind of like what we just talked about a little bit to go what it was like to be 15, 16, 17. So I don't have that hypocrisy. Now, do I want to steer them away maybe from some of the things that I got into? Well, I want to give them stories. Now, whether they revere those stories or use it as a cautionary tale, I don't know. Sometimes you're like, yeah, but dad, when you told me that you did this, this, and that. I'm like, well, no, no, no, that wasn't supposed to be like, oh, you go ahead and do that.

It was not encouragement, you know. but it's tough because you think you're doing a good job but you just you don't really know and I guess your boys are older now so do you see the proof in the pudding sort of later on in life when they have to be on their own and do their own thing yeah I like to think so I mean the thing is that like the two the two things that I've wanted them to be are kind yeah Kindness is everything, and I hope that they've got that. And also to have what my mother would call Hoyle, because my mother's Welsh and Welsh is her first language. And so this is the word I heard quite a lot growing up, which is Hoyle, H-Y-W-L.

And what it basically means is the literal translation is like the wind in your sails, having agency. Probably the best translation into American English is something like mojo, right? But it's like having it, having like being under your own steam, having your own. being on a mission, being under your, like having purpose, trajectory direction, right? And so for me, this is the combination of kind of kindness and knuck and coil is really

what it's about. Now, how that ends up, I just don't know. So one of my sons works in digital marketing, whatever that is. I mean, I really do know, right? Another one is a fifth grade teacher in Baltimore city and the other one, we don't know what he's going to do yet, but I will say that, like, I've had this sense

of agency, and I'll give you one of my proudest moments as a father was that I used to like if I'm on a train or a bus or something like that and there's someone who needs a seat like an elderly person or a pregnant person or something like that and there are and there are young men sitting down I always tell them to get up right I always say I always say nice to say guys I know who here I always do it nice who who here wants to give up their seat because I think this person would want it right I always I always call that and then my son's growing up would be with me and they would just be mortified so embarrassed about dad can stop doing it like they'll but these people looking down on the phones and

like the dad stop doing that right so embarrassing I went no I'm not going to stop doing that because these guys should give up their fucking seat right and yeah and someone someone needs to if they're not doing it automatically then I'm gonna I'm gonna tell them how to do it right yeah anyway I'm I'm on a I'm on a train with my middle son who's probably the one who was most embarrassed by me what I was doing my middle son I don't know what it is like two three years ago now it's very busy we're standing up There's a bunch of guys sitting down. This elderly lady gets on.

My son says, hey, guys, who's going to give up their seat? I was like, my work here is done. I feel that right now, too. I love that stuff. Because the pride that you have for your children, there's nothing like that. And when you are able to sort of see that, and it wasn't a lesson. It was just imprinted upon them from who you were. and who you are

and to know that they're actually watching because sometimes you think oh they don't give a shit about me my oldest is 18 and he's like whoa dad like you know he's turned he used to cuddle all the time and now he's turned into sort of that teenager

who just doesn't want to do anything you know but you when I watch him mimicking some of the things that I do and say and act you're like oh he's listening he's still in there he's listening always and they notice everything. And I think that the lesson for me is that kids believe their eyes, not their ears,

and this has to be show not tell. You can have discussions about kindness and how it is supposed to be and how men should behave towards women and how you should be in the world. In the end, that's kind of irrelevant. What actually matters is how do they see you relate to their mom? How do they see you relate to people in the street? How do they see you like being in the world? And look, we're going to fuck it up a lot, right? And so, but it's a long arc. It's on the average. And they notice everything.

Let me give you one example from my own life, which is like, I went through this phase where my youngest son is a complete tech geek. And his favorite thing to do on the Saturday was to go to this place called MicroCenter, which is this vast warehouse-sized place just filled with like technology stuff. Like, it's a computer and stuff. I don't know. We used to love going there. It was completely window.

ghastly place as far as I'm concerned like full of full of nerds looking at text and he would always be like every Saturday I'd be on the sofa and be like

Dad can you take me to my microse centre and he got to the point where he's old enough and I'm like no you can take the bus or I'll pay for an Uber I'm not getting off

I'm not going to drive you 20 minutes to that ghastly place and a walk record and then something changed in my own life actually was partly involved with some religious activities, but change my own life where I actually kind of thought, you know what, my kids aren't

around for that long. How long are they actually going to be asking me to go do something with them? And I made a decision. Most of the times when he asks me, dad, can we go to micro-center? I'm going to say yes. Even if in the moment, I'm going to be like, yeah, leave dad alone. Dad wants to drink coffee and like, I did it. And you know what? A couple of months later, and I didn't tell him anybody that I was doing it. So just made a conscious of it. But a couple months later, he said, really noticed, Dad, that since you did that thing, you've been taking me to MicroCenter a lot more often. Wow. They notice everything.

Yeah. Everything. No, I know. I know. I know. And I act accordingly. You know, I do the same thing. Like, it's Sunday I'm watching football.

Dad, can we go hit golf balls? Because my kids are now obsessed with golf. And I was a very good golver. And the last thing I want to fucking do is get up off the couch on a Sunday and go hit golf balls. But I'm like, yeah, you know what? Let's go. Yeah, because I know they're noticing. I know they're taking it and they don't say thank you.

They don't even, it's none of that. But I know that when they are 40 years old, they're like, oh, dad got off. Like, he did shit with us. He was there for us, you know? Yeah. Sort of the sacrifice. I know. It's like I did it.

And of course, as kids, you're like narcissistic jerks, basically. That's back to the point about being a teenager. But I had this experience, my own dad, where I was 16, I was really happy at my school. And my dad got a job on the other side of the country. and they said, well, we should, you know, really we shouldn't move, but I was so happy in the school that they said, look, let's just not move him. He's got two more years to go. And so what that meant was that my dad got up at like 5am every Monday morning and drove across the country and didn't come home until Friday. Because you had to stay over there Friday. Come home kind of Friday night. He did that for two years so that I could stay in, so that I could stay in that school. I didn't, I didn't even notice. I was probably vaguely aware that dad wasn't around as much. I was so, I was so wrapped up in my own stuff. I didn't know that's why he'd done it and the point is he didn't he didn't tell me that's why he'd done it right

he didn't say I'm doing this for you or whatever like I never knew right and then I'd realize like I said hey dad why didn't you do that thing where you kept driving and said well because we wanted to keep you in that school because you were so happy there I was like you drove across the country you know every week and I said

really why did you do that and he said because it's what you do never forgotten that yeah it's because it's what you're doing it's such a It's such a simple statement, but so true. It is just what you do. That's what you do.

Yeah. It's interesting just thinking back on what you said about sort of, you know, watching and not being told, but just sort of that imprinting. There's a flip side to that, too, because when you don't, when you grow up in not such a great place, I think you, you, sometimes you have a choice. Sometimes it's just so ingrained that you're going to repeat some of these patterns, but, and I can relate this to my own life. where, you know, I understand my dad's hang-ups. I know that he came from a place of divorce as well. At the same time, I didn't want to be him. So it was a switch where I said, I'm going to be better.

You know, I'm going to be different rather than this is how you love. You know what I mean? You love by not being there. You know, and then my stepdad came in and he was an incredible man for me and taught me what it was like to be a man, taught me independence. I was a mama's boy. I was afraid of my own shadow.

And he gave me some tough love in the best way, which is sort of just letting me be alone in the woods sometimes in Colorado and letting me panic, essentially. And then coming out from behind a tree and saying, Oliver, hey, you're okay, now get us home. We were on ATVs and little motorcycles. And I was able to get myself home. And he's like, you know, boom, there's a lesson for you.

At the same time, he wasn't my biological dad. And so, you know, there was a lot, there's a lot that I have of Kurt, but there's a lot that I have just sort of, sort of built on my own through trial and error and through, you know, sort of cherry picking the things that I like and then throwing away the things that I don't. I mean, does that sort of happen? Probably even with a good family, with you, with me, with good dads. I mean, it's like, yeah, dad's great there, but this I don't really like. Yeah, I think that's right. I like that imprinting. I think that's right. you're imprinted by the culture around you. And so when you're figuring out how to be in the world today and how to be a man today, then you're just drawing that inspiration from the men around you

and the men in your life. And I don't think we're consciously able to sort of choose necessarily what lessons. Like if it's by definite, if it's being imprinted on you, it's almost a subconscious, it's a subconscious thing, right? And that's why it like,

that's why it just over time, like a guy behaving like that, a gut, you're just showing, not telling, it has this kind of cumulative effect, right? It's not a curriculum for masculinity or how to be a man in the world. It's a behavior that's learned and observed. And you said at the beginning, that can be from one man, it can be from other men, can be from a bunch of men. I mean, again, just from my experience is like my middle son really struggled

at school, and then he found, he went to university, but he went back to the UK, he wanted to go to Cardiff University because that's where my parents lived. And he wanted to be near his grandparents. And he told me one day, he was, you know, when he was struggling through college and struggled with some mental health issues. And he said he could actually see on his walk to, from his dorm room to the, to the college. He could see the tower of the hospital next to my parents' house. He just looked north and see it. There was a certain point in the walk.

And he said, if I'm walking there and I'm feeling a bit down, I look north and I can see that tower. And I know that that's where a grandpa is. And if I need him, he'll come. And that helped me get through the day. And actually, he very rarely had to draw on them. He would go for Sunday lunch, whatever, but just knowing that grandpa was there, and they did help him. And it's like, you know, sometimes it doesn't just take more than one man in one generation.

Sometimes it takes two generations. My father has done a huge amount as the grandfather to my sons, and especially to that son. And I don't know if there was just something in my relationship with him or some timing, whatever, just meant that my dad was able to kind of build something else complimentary around it. He also taught him how to ride a bike when they were on vacation once. And so, like, and I think as a dad, part of the challenge, actually, is to allow that to happen, allow the space for other men, like Uncle Simon, like my dad, like a bunch of other people in my kids' lives, some of their coaches, their colleagues, one of their bosses, to just actually also play that role and not be territorial about it, right?

Do our thing, but recognize that, you know what? as I said, it's going to take a village. And some of the other guys in my kids' lives have definitely done a better job. And sometimes, actually, they can't, there's stuff that they can talk to my friends about

that they can't talk to me about. Yeah. Ooh, December, man. This is one of my favorite months. My favorite winter month, for sure. Christmas is coming. And it's such a special month. It's when my family and I,

really, really slow down, celebrate, being together. We've been talking about heading to Japan, of all places. My sons are obsessed with anime. They want to go to Japan. So we're thinking about it. We are in Colorado. There's no doubt. But after Colorado, we are thinking about Japan.

The kids are very excited about skiing Hokkaido, which is incredible snow. I've seen it all over social media. I've been looking at videos, exploring Tokyo's neighborhoods, and eating their weight in ramen. Trips like that are truly unforgettable. and what makes it even better is staying at a place on Airbnb where you can get that authentic local feel.

It's not just about the sites. It's about living the experience together. And if you're traveling this holiday season, it is the perfect time to think about hosting your own home on Airbnb. The best part is you don't have to do it all by yourself. With Airbnb's co-host network, you can hire a local co-host to manage everything.

While you're away, find a co-host at Airbnb.ca. If a Lenovo Gaming Computer is on your holiday list, Don't shop around. Just go directly to the source, Lenovo.com. It's your last chance to score exclusive deals on the gaming PCs you want, like the Lenovo Legion Tower 5 Gen 10 gaming desktop and Lenovo Locke gaming laptop. So avoid all that shopping chaos and price comparing, and just go directly to the source, Lenovo.com,

where PCs are up to 35% off. That's Lenovo.com. It's 523 p.m. One of your kids is asking for a snack, another is building a fort out of your clean laundry, and you're staring at a half-empty fridge and thinking, what are we even going to eat tonight? Or you could just hello-fresh it. With over 80 recipes to choose from every week, including kid-friendly ones, even for picky eaters, you'll get fresh ingredients and easy step-by-step recipes delivered right to your door.

No last-minute grocery runs. No, what do we even have, fridge staring? And the best part, you're in total control. Skip a week. Pause anytime. Pick what works for you. It's dinner on your terms. The kids can even help you cook. Yeah, it's going to be messy. But somehow, they tend to eat the vegetables they made themselves. Try HelloFresh today and get 50% off the first box with free shipping. Go to hellofresh.ca and use promo code Mom 50. That's hellofresh.ca promo code Mom 50. Hellofresh. Canada's number one meal kit delivery service. the devil was attacking us. Two brothers, one devout household, two radically different paths. Gabe Ortiz became one of the highest-ranking

law enforcement officers in Texas. 32 years, total law enforcement experience. But his brother Larry, he stayed behind and built an entirely different legacy. He was the head of this gang, and nobody was going to tell him what to do. You're going to push that line for the cause? Took us under his wing and showed us the game, as they call it.

When Larry is murdered, Gabe is forced to confront the past he tried to leave behind and uncover secrets he never saw coming. My dad had a whole other life that we never knew about. Like my mom started screaming my dad's name and I just heard one gunshot. The Brothers Ortiz is a gripping true story about faith, family, and how two lives can drift so far apart

and collide in the most devastating way. Listen to the Brothers Ortiz on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Stefan Curry, and this is Gentleman's Cut. I think what makes Gentleman's Cut different is me being a part of developing the profile of this beautiful finished product. With every sip, you get a little something different. Visit Gentleman's Cut Bourbon.com or your nearest Total Wines or Bevmo. This message is intended for audiences 21 and older.

Gentleman's Cut Bourbon, Boone County, Kentucky. For more on Gentleman's Cut Bourbon, please visit Gentleman's Cut Bourbon. com please enjoy responsibly well what's what's been your response with just women overall just generally you know um if they're moms are boys i would say that's me mostly pretty positive like the boy moms are a big force i think right now in uh in our culture um like very grateful in some ways and interested and worried and happy that we're talking about it and interestingly if we've younger women even they don't

and have kids, like, they're typically quite open to it because they're seeing it in their brothers and their friends, some of these kind of issues and struggles. Actually, I think the toughest thing is with women who are like middle-aged and older have a visceral resistance to this discussion. And I completely understand why, and I share it a little bit too, which is, like, are you kidding me? Like, we've only just broken some of these glass ceilings. And we still, by the way, have got some still to break. And do you know what I've had to go through to get where I am now? and now you want to turn back to boys and men. And so actually, I get that.

There's a generational thing here where, like, I think for women who've really had to kind of leave miles of broken glass behind them as they've broken glass ceilings to suddenly say to them, oh, now boys and men, that's hard. And I get that. Yeah, both can happen at the same time, as you've said. Yes, and they get that. But there is an initial kind of visceral reaction to it, which I understand, and you have to be reassuring that that's not the goal here to go back.

And you can do two things at once. It's not a zero-sum game. But I understand why people feel it. In fact, it's really interesting that sort of reactionary, that reactionary feeling of that pullback when you talk about, you know, the mental health and the well-being of men and boys and wanting to champion something like that. It's strange that we've been almost conditioned, you know,

to be like, oh, wait a minute. Is that, is that okay? When in reality, what's wrong? I mean, it's a necessity. It's their human beings who are dealing with their own shit. Well, yeah. Yeah. I think it is because of this fear of where it might lead.

And I think particularly in our current culture, there's a lot of fear that, you know, there's some online misogyny. There's some obviously very famous figures online, etc. And so there's a kind of fear that there's this growing back. clash against women, right? And the young men are being, young men are being recruited to a misogynist cause. And I think that it is largely not happening, but I can see why people might fear it happening.

And it feels for a woman like that their gains are quite fragile and that we could end up going backwards. And you can totally understand why some of them would feel that. I don't think it's true, but I think we have to really hold that thought in our minds whenever we're talking about this, which is like, if we're going to rise together, we actually kind of need both men and women to feel invested in the well-being of each other and get past that zero something. That means you do have to take seriously the arguments that women will make about this new focus on boys and men and to emphasize that we have to do both. It's not good for

women if men are struggling or vice versa, but you have to get to that point. Of course, I mean, women benefit from healthy men. I mean, and men benefit from healthy women. Yeah, exactly. You say it like that, it sounds so simple. Yeah, it's very simple. And I think it's true, but it does, it does, but it can get weaponized. That's the problem. This work can get weaponized by people who do have quite a reactionary gender. Oh, of course.

We have to be aware of that, but not seed the ground as a result. Like, I don't think us running silent on it is a good idea either. Yeah, but just what do we do? You know, how do we implement these things into our everyday life? I mean, I know when we parent our boys, we're sort of working off of instinct. or books if people read books or however they're doing it. But, you know, how do we, how do we put this into practice? Yeah, you mean at a personal level?

You're not asking me to do a policy description. No, on our personal level. I'm sure, throw me a policy list. Yeah. That's what I want to do, but I feel, I feel you, look, I think that you've said it a couple times now and I really want to underline it, which is trusting your instincts, especially as a dad. Like, actually, there are ways that.

kind of dads interact with their kids that are just, on the average, a little bit different, right? So they're a little bit more likely to help kids take risks and to manage those risks. They're a little bit more likely to be doing through play, especially a little bit sometimes, like, competitive play, fun competitive play, to actually be helping kids negotiate the outside world. That seems to be true, especially when adolescents. So your kids being the age they are now means that, like, you're sort of in some ways at maximum impact, right, on your kids outcomes, right? Not just boys, but girls too.

But I do think that, like, a lot of dads now kind of feel like sort of second-rate moms, right? And they use a maternal standard of parenting to judge their own parenting. And that's not right. Actually, we do bring some different instincts to the party. And so, for example, around the risk-taking thing, there's very often a creative tension between moms and dads. And, of course, it doesn't always go this way. But very often it's like where a dad is kind of wanting the kids to take some. some more risks, in a careful and thoughtful way,

do some more adventurous stuff, like your stepdad did, right? As you just described, that lovely story of you out in the woods. And the mums are a bit more like, be careful. And that's a creative tension. If the dads actually end up just downgrading their instincts and saying, oh, well, you know, mother knows best, then they actually end up disempowering themselves and doing a discerverterver to their kids. So as a dad, especially, my message to dads right now is your instincts are important.

and they're not exactly the same as the mums and you need to discuss everything and being creative tension with that but if your instinct is that your son or daughter should do X or Y don't assume that just because your wife or partner disagrees with you but you're wrong

a bit of dad energy is a good thing and it's one of the areas I think we've lost a bit of ground is that we've actually ended up I think sometimes almost mistrusting our own instincts. That's why I'm so happy to say you've got to go with their instincts because I think we tend to

trust maternal instincts more than paternal instincts. And that's a mistake. We do need both. And so lean into those. Obviously don't do harm like the toxic masculinity stuff. Sure. Of course. And they're kind of moral panic around the online

world now. Like don't be the parent who's like I can't believe you're watching that. Slam the laptop. Shout at them. I'll give you one example of the clothes, which is this woman came up to me and said, she owed me an apology and she wouldn't, thank me, I'd never met her before. And I said, why? So because my son watched a video on YouTube and then came to me and said, do you know what, mum, boys and men are struggling in lots of ways now too. And she said, I lost my temper with him. I said, do you, what are you watching? I don't want you watching this shit online.

Do you know what women have had to deal with? Is this some misogynist stuff that I've been reading about, blah, blah, blah. And he's like, mum, maybe you should come watch it with me. And it was a video, it was my video. It was my big think video. And she said, by the end of it. She's in tears. She's apologising to her son and saying, I'm so sorry that I assumed the worst. And actually, this is reasonable and interesting. And then they ended up, as she said, having the best conversation they'd ever had, how he was 15, how he was struggling at school and was struggling with ideas and masculinity. And they got into it. And then they both came to this event and they came up and she kind of apologized to me and thank me for creating that

conversation with her son. And so don't assume that just because your son's online, that he's turning into a misogynist monster. Engaged with curiosity. not contempt, it doesn't mean you shouldn't be careful, but like engage and also, for fuck sake, learn from them. You don't understand the internet, right? You don't. They do. They understand it. And they live in it. And the idea that you know what's going on on the internet is hilarious to them. Oh, it's a joke. It's archaic. I don't know what's going on. Yeah. I've them talk to you about it, discuss it. So Andrew Tate, I tried not to mention, but like, this, right? I watched Andrew Tate. I watched Andrew Tate videos with my sons. And we talked about

what they hated, what they didn't like. And to be clear, a horrible, horrible misogynist monster, like, to be clear. Oh, gosh. Yeah. But let's talk about it. Let's watch it. Let's not, you know, let's talk. Because everyone's consuming this. It's everywhere. And so, like, let's talk about it. Yeah, my kids would fuck with me and they'd be like, dad, love Andrew Tate. I love him. He's like, and I'm like, it's like, do you guys. And then they do it to that mom? Yeah, they're trying to. to get a reaction from me. Try to get it from you.

No, they're from moms. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're doing it to wind you up because guess what? Of course. Teenagers and especially teenage boys, they're a bit transgressive. And so this is the way. And in your case, they're kind of, they're holding it. But also, like, I think a lot of teen boys, young men are quite likely to go through

a phase right now where they're interested in those kinds of figures. I think it's the failure of mainstream institutions to hold an honest conversation about these issues has created the market for people like Andrew Tate. What's interesting about Andrew Tate is the demand, not the supply. And it is our fault. It is our fault that are employees returning to Andrew Tate's fault. Oh, yeah. And it's not the boy's fault. It's our fault.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Entirely. Oh, my gosh, I know. Well, this has been amazing. So wait, I want to go if you want to dig deeper into this, you can go, you have the, for your think tank, you have a website, right? Yeah, so it's just a, a.m.org. So American Institute for Boys and Men.org, that's where all the best research on this issue is to be found now. Yeah, and you can deep dive into all that on the website. As promised earlier, it's really boring.

Yeah, no, but I know. It's super boring. Really boring. But sometimes that's the best stuff. It's the good stuff. That's the good stuff. It's the boring stuff. But serious. But this is, the truth is that, I know, I made a joke about being boring, the issues facing boys and men are too serious to be left to the online clowns. They have to be addressed by us, by people in the media, by people in pink tanks, et cetera. We have to be doing this work if we don't want it to be being done by the clowns.

So, like, actually, there's, like, joking aside, like, this is a vocation for me now because I've really come to believe that neglecting these issues has been a big problem, and we need to catch up now. I mean, we need to make our boys and men in our own lives, in our own communities. He's like, there is, every guy listened to this knows a boy or a young man in their lives who they should text right now, call, and say, how are you doing? And then ask them again, now, how are you really doing? Who will benefit from you reaching out to them, right?

I guarantee it. And so it's not just about policy. It's about like, if you're a guy, you're listening to this, I'm telling me, once you stop listening to us, call that boy, boy or young man in your life, a neighbor, a cousin, uncle, pull him, see him, help him. We have got to make these boys and men know that we see them, that we love them, and that we have their backs. Amazing, man. This makes me emotional.

It's so fucking true. Make a phone call. There's, you know, it's just a connectivity. It's like, yeah, I'm thinking about you. It's very simple. I'm thinking about thinking about you. It's very simple. Yeah.

Thank you, brother. Really fun. I appreciate the time. Yeah. Take care of those boys as well. I will. I will. All right.

All right, man. Cheers. Thank you. Bye. Oh, what a cool guy. God, man, dedicating his life to the men and the boys. I think it's great, you know. I think it's great.

I wonder if he listens to boys to men. I wonder if that's his favorite R&B group. I should have asked him that. God damn it, Oliver, you should have asked. And, you know, it's interesting. I love what he said. You know, if this resonated with you, call someone. Call a friend.

Call a dude. call a young cousin call whoever it's it's important men are important you know i know that sounds crazy and it's it's sort of strange that you know this idea of making men better is uh a negative we're all humans and we're biologically different we have different feelings you know than women do we have we have a primal nature that will always be inside of us that is different And so why not harness that? Why not get better? It's all about just getting better.

So when we hear about masculinity, we hear that word, let's not fucking put toxic in front of it. Yes, there are toxic masculines. Of course, there's toxic femininity. There's toxic everything. But masculinity, that word has been bastardized, it seemed, to make it just negative when really it's not. So anyway, I just, that's my thing. Love you. I'm out.

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