Sibling Revelry with Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson - The Zen of Therapy with Dr. Mark Epstein

Episode Date: April 27, 2022

Kate and Oliver are joined again by Dr. Mark Epstein, a psychiatrist who focuses on integrating the Buddha's teachings into psychotherapy. They discuss fear, love, and therapy, as well as how to bring more mindfulness and kindness into our lives.Executive Producers: Kate Hudson and Oliver HudsonProduced by Allison BresnickEdited by Josh WindischMusic by Mark HudsonThis show is powered by Simplecast.This episode is sponsored by:Aura (auraframes.com/sibling)Outerknown (outerknown.com PROMO CODE: sibling)HigherDOSE (higherdose.com/sibling)Sakara (sakara.com/sibling)Coors Light (coorslight.com/ HUDSON)Noom MoodSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an IHeart podcast. September is a great time to travel, especially because it's my birthday in September, especially internationally. Because in the past, we've stayed in some pretty awesome Airbnbs in Europe. Did we've one in France, we've one in Greece,

we've actually won in Italy a couple of years ago. Anyway, it just made our trip feel extra special. So if you're heading out this month, consider hosting your home on Airbnb with the co-host feature you can hire someone local to help manage everything. Find a co-host at Airbnb.ca slash host. Hey, it's your favorite jersey girl, Gia Judice. Welcome to Casual Chaos, where I share my story.

This week, I'm sitting down with Vanderpump Rural Star, Sheena Shea. I don't really talk to either of them, if I'm being honest. There will be an occasional text, one way or the other, from me to Ariana. Maybe a happy birthday from Ariana to me. I think the last time I talked to Tom, it was like, congrats on America's Got Talent. This is a combo you don't want to miss. Listen to Casual Chaos on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It may look different, but Native Culture is alive.

My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other Native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Kate Hudson. And my name is Oliver Hudson. We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationship.

And what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling rivalry. No, no. Sibling Ravelry. Don't do that with your mouth. Sibling Reveory. That's good.

So this week we have our final episode of the season with Mark Epstein, who you may remember from an earlier episode. We loved him so much we wanted to have him back on. He is a psycho. psychiatrist who looks at the ways in which Buddhism can enrich Western approaches to psychology. He's just the absolute best. His latest book is called The Zen of Therapy Uncovering a Hidden Kindness in Life. You're going to like it. Just listen. He's our first repeat offender.

I know. I love it. Hi. Hi there. Hey. Oh, gosh. Nice to see you again. Nice to see you both. You're very kind to have me again.

Of course. We were just saying you're our first repeat offender. I caught that. I caught that. I'm happy to be. Well, it's so nice to have you back. And I'm excited because you have a new book coming out. And we get to talk a bit about this.

And it does bring back a lot of what we talked about the last time, which is the intersection of your therapy and the sort of science behind psychotherapy and meditation. So the intersection of Buddhism and traditional psychology. This is something that it needs, it almost needs to happen. I mean, it just seems to go. It needed to happen. For me, it needed to happen because the Buddhist thing came to me first. So I was like, oh, this is this is answering a lot of questions for me.

and I really, you know, embraced it as much as I could and then had to figure out something to do with my life. So decided that being a therapist was, you know, the most attractive option, I think. So then I felt, oh, it's sort of incumbent upon me. I can't abandon the Buddhist thing, but I have to really be a therapist. so can I can it seemed like they should be able to work together but I didn't have that much I had Ram Dass you know I had a few a few guiding lights but they don't really train you that well to be a therapist they just because I did it through the medical route where you'd like do the courses and then suddenly you know they put you in a room with a patient you know and okay you're

the doctor now so so I have So I could sort of make it up as I went along or learn by doing would be another way, a less facetious way of saying it maybe. We'll get into the Buddhism aspect of it all, but just therapy in general, because we've both been in it for a thousand years. This popped into my head, you know, to be a good therapist, just in general, does it take a certain attribute, a certain sort of not personal experience necessarily, but is it empathy, you know, is it listening?

Like, is there a certain sort of component? to being a really good therapist. I have a feeling I know what Mark's going to say. Okay, go. Okay. I think it's curiosity. I think it's curiosity. In my book, I quote a friend of mine, a therapist friend of mine,

as saying that a therapist is one-part gossip and one-part voyeur. So I think it's curiosity really and a willingness to put yourself aside. in a certain way, like the vacation from therapy, like you don't have to think about yourself. Being a therapist, you have to use what comes up in your own mind while you're listening, but really it's such a relief from yourself because you're immersed in what's going on with the other person.

Yeah, being present. And I think maybe empathy comes out of those qualities, you know, the curiosity and the willingness to put yourself to one side. But I think, you know, or friendship, like, is how is therapy maybe just another kind of friendship i sometimes wonder so the that need in the uh you know in the therapist for the friendship or the intimacy i think is also a motivated yeah because it's the most intimate relationship isn't it like i find that you know my my relationship to the therapist that i've had which aren't that many i've had really two um me too and i mean it's

the most intimate they know everything you know i and it's not the most intimate hopefully but well no that's against the rules i think that's right kind of intimacy but like the most emotionally kind of um well honest i think it's that's what it's striving for is honesty right um because because so much of so much of being in therapy is saying the things that you're ashamed of or embarrassed about or you know uh that you don't even even know, like letting you say the things you don't even know. Mark, how many times have you been in a session where you're like, I just, they're just lying to me all the time?

Have you ever had to like actually put your foot down? That really only has happened to me when people are doing heroin or drinking surreptitiously and not telling anyone in their lives about it, including me. So I have had that happen and it comes out much later. Oh, yeah. Well, I'm not saying that I've lost. to my therapist necessarily. You've withheld.

Oh, withheld my entire life. Everybody withholds. No, I'm not even kidding. Like, you know, and this is all public knowledge, but like I was, I went through a period of infidelity with my now wife, who was my fiancee at the time for two years. And I was spiraling. I mean, I was drinking.

I was partying. I was with other women. I was out of my mind. And I didn't get caught. I told her because I couldn't live with myself and told her. We got into therapy with my therapist. And he was like, I didn't know any of this shit.

Like, I didn't tell him one thing. Nothing. He didn't know anything. And he's like, oh, okay. And meanwhile, for two and a half years, I was going every week. Like, hey, man, like, things are good, you know. Life is pretty good. Working and engaged, yeah.

And I was just in a downward spiral. a definite addiction type of Yeah, well, I had a little lower case. Well, I don't think it's only, like when you try to force your adolescent children into therapy and they're not ready, I think that that's a very common thing where they go to the therapist, but they don't really talk about what's happening. Well, Ollie was 29. Well, this was 20.

That's pretty young stuff. I was. That's not even, you were close. I was maybe 27, 27. But I just. Then came, then came. the release, then came the anxiety, then came the panic attacks, and we're still still dealing with it.

There was just a lot of shame. I was so ashamed that I couldn't even tell my own therapist. Can you be a narcissist and a therapist? Oh, good question. Oh, I think there are very, there are many of them. Yeah, I think I think you can be, you can be messed up in all kinds of ways and still be a decent therapist if you, if you adhere to the restrictions that being a therapist requires. you know but get when you like coming up around therapists being trained around therapists and seeing

who these people really are in their like in their regular lives it's it's it's pretty disturbing we talked about this before because you were on before but we have so many new listeners let's let's get into your Buddhism just for a second just to gain some context you know like how did this how did this happen where did you discover it what it did for you um I discovered Buddhism in my freshman year in college by taking an introduction to world religion class that I wasn't planning on taking, but I met a young woman, also a freshman in the first week of school who was taking the class. So I followed her into the class. And it's satisfied a requirement. And the whole first semester was Eastern religion and the whole second semester was Western religion.

And the Eastern religion was Buddhism and Taoism and Hinduism. And we just read the texts, you know, for Taoism, we read the Tao Te Ching, and for Buddhism, we read the Damapataata, and for Hinduism, we read the Bhagavad Gita or something. And the Buddhist stuff just like lit me up. Like, oh, I remember one of the first poems was like the untrained mind, the anxious. mind is like a fish flapping on dry ground, you know. And I was like, oh, that's what my mind is like. And so, and then there was just like one thing after another. In college, there was a lot of Buddhism floating around the periphery. And I met, I took a psychology class and the person who was the graduate student who was teaching it was a guy named Daniel Goldman, who went on to

be the psychology writer for the New York Times. And he wrote emotional. intelligence. But in those days, he was just back from India. He'd been with Ram Dass already. He knew about Buddhism. And he sort of took me under his wing and said, if you want to learn more about this, my friends are all teaching out in Boulder, Colorado this summer. You should go out there. It's a long story. I'm sorry. I love it. But I listened to him. I went out to this place called Noropa Institute, which was in Boulder, 1974. I was 20 years old. And it was like a Buddhist woodstock sort of thing. Like all of California was there and a lot of the New York art world was there.

And I was like this young, you know, wide-eyed person. And Joseph Goldstein and Jack Cornfield and Sharon Salzberg and Ram Dass and Gregory Bateson and Allen Ginsburg. I remember this story. I mean, it's all now. I'm like, oh, yeah. I mean, was this a drug-induced thing as well? I think you asked the same question the last time. Well, a lot of the, I mean, a lot of the people who were there were pulled in because of their psychedelic experiences, you know.

And then, and one half of it was Ram Dass with all, who had been Richard Alpert, who had been Timothy Leary's associate, who had been kicked out of Harvard before I got there. So there was a whole psychedelic, you know, leftover kind of. thing. And then a Tibetan Buddhist Lama of, you know, teaching. But it was an attempt to channel the psychedelic experiences in a more, you know, to find the spiritual element and to begin to integrate that into a Western life, you know. So that, that grabbed me. And I gravitated towards the mindfulness teachers and started doing silent retreats, two-week silent retreats.

I did a series of them. And that's what showed me that, oh, meditation, it's not just what I've read about. It's actually a real experience. And doing it with some kind of intensity, you know, in silence for two weeks, trying to be mindful, moment to moment of whatever's happening. it's oh this is a real thing like my like my mind can actually do this and um did you find not to be

completely transformative like your silent the silent retreats or was it wasn't complete no it's like it doesn't make you a different person but it it got me out of my head basically i was very much you know like worrying anxious thinking i was you know a smart i like to read etc but i was very much located in my thinking mind and the meditation pulled me you know it showed me that that was just one aspect of who I was that it wasn't the complete thing and that there was more on a feeling level on a heart level and and that even my mind was more than just my thoughts that my mind was actually this kind of expanse that was full of stuff I didn't know about how long did it take how long did it take you to have that sort of breakthrough you know it took about three days in a

silent retreat like the the first three days i was struggling always with can i do this and this is so boring and i'm no good at this and it's this is you know and then but but i'm i'm sort of disciplined in how i have approached you know a lot of things in my life so i just plugged away at it and at a certain point, my mind calmed down. Do you remember the moment? I remember the moment. Yeah, because it can happen like that. And it's just a moment. Holy shit. Yeah, I remember the moment. And it was quite profound for me, really. And I became kind of filled with very intense loving feelings that I didn't know I was capable of. And I spent a lot of time in further retreats chasing that feeling, you know, trying to recreate.

it, which people do. The silent meditation drug. Yeah, yeah. I wonder if that's a characteristic or something. I wonder. I think it's a real tendency that people chase the, you know, that the first taste of something is really profound and then whatever the addictive thing is in somebody, it's like, oh, I need more of it.

I want you to repeat. Yeah, well, I mean, I just to. I think that's why you find a lot of addicts, you know, who then move into religion or spirituality and there's an addictive quality to it, you know. Yeah. They almost go too far. I see that a lot, for sure. Yeah. I had one very good.

I was at a silent retreat, maybe five or six years ago. And I was still kind of subliminally chasing that feeling like, oh, I know what can happen. Where is it? and um whoever was doing the teaching doing the interviews he was he was very he i knew that he knew what i was after and he said um uh don't chase her mark let her find you and he he he gendered it like that and i and when he and the fact that he gendered it like that with like i knew i knew he knew, you know, there was something, you know, like the erotic aspect of, yeah, yeah, and let her find you. It was like, oh, yeah, that's the right Mediterranean. Yeah, I like that. Great. Yeah. Yeah,

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but then uncovering a hidden kindness in life. And I just want to kind of pinpoint, you know, where the kindness aspect comes in. Like, what is that, why is that such a poignant word in the title? And how does that relate to the therapy and the Buddhism together? Because therapy is an interpersonal, event. You know, it's a relationship. It's a relational thing. I have started to think about it as a two-person meditation. You know, like usually you think about meditation, you go inside yourself and you're all alone

and your solitude, et cetera. But why not deploy the same kind of attentional rigor or qualities in an interpersonal thing? So because it's a relationship or kind of a you know, spiritual friendship I sometimes think about it as also, that when the ruminations or the anxiety or the over-elaborated thinking mind starts to fall away, you know, when the conceptual mind loosens its grip or when the ego gives up its attempts to control, you know, those are all different ways of saying the same thing. I feel I can relate to all of them. Yeah, me too.

What is it that is allowed to emerge, you know, when the restraint of all of that is quieted? And so it's some kind of heart thing, you know, like kindness that starts to come out. So the intimacy that is possible in therapy that really is maybe just friendship or a kind of caring one for the other or a same. sense of being appreciated or acknowledged or known, you know, that all just feels like kindness to me. And the Buddhist thing, the Buddhist psychology says that that capacity is latent in all of us, that that's really like our natural state and that our egos get in the way and we, you know, our need to control what can't be controlled, to get preoccupies us, and then our fear. steps in and then we're locked into our own, you know, small minds. But that the Buddha nature,

you know, is this kind of kindness that realizes that we're all kind of in the same predicament and that we need each other. Mm-hmm. Great. It's so interesting, though, because everyone seeks the Buddha nature in one way or another, whether you call Buddha, gee, God, whatever it is. But essentially, we wouldn't even exist. Mankind wouldn't exist. without ego and power struggle and war and all of these things. I mean, would it, though, you're just making that assumption. Well, I'm assuming, because imagine if we all were of Buddha nature.

Then we, yeah, we may be living fucking the best. Well, no, we would have... In a Buddhaverse. We would have in a Buddha verse. I like that. Did you just make that up? Did you just make that up? No, that's from Thurman.

Okay, fine. That's from Robert Thurman. He made it up. But I'm serious. Like, you know, we had to... No, mankind wouldn't exist without mother. Right. Mankind wouldn't exist without mothers. That's the, and so the, the, and, and, and, and semen, you need semen. Yeah, semen they could get from anywhere, but it's the mothers who, the mothers are really doing it. We can, we can, we can grab that anywhere. Scoop up some semen down by the river. Yes. It's coming. That's coming soon. So the, the, the maternal aptitude, the ability, you know, the ability that's intrinsic in a mother that doesn't destroy her baby when she may, when, when, and the baby makes her so pissed off and frustrated,

that capacity of a mother is related to the latent Buddha nature. That's what the Dalai Lama always uses as an illustration. And they even have meditations where you imagine that all beings have been your mother or you've been mother to all beings so that you can cultivate instead of the war and the, you know. So how does a session work, meaning how do you integrate, both Buddhism, meditation, and sort of traditional psychology. Well, that's what I was trying to show in the book. People are always asking me, you know, like, how do you bring Buddhism into the therapy?

How do you teach your patients to meditate and so on? And I'm always giving like various equivocal answers to that because for a long time I sort of kept the Buddhism part more hidden and I didn't want to proselytize or lay it on people. but people were actually interested, so then I had to be a little bit more out front with it. So what I did in the book was to try to capture one session just as it went moment to moment per week for a year to show how therapy, it's really just someone comes in with their life and they try to talk about it. And I listen and try to respond in a way that is helpful or truthful. And we just talk about the mundane reality of somebody's struggle, you know.

And so how does the Buddhist, the Buddhist thing sneaks in, I think, in a couple of different ways. If it's alive in any way in me, then somehow the way that I'm listening or the way that I'm talking, the way that I'm responding, it has to be coming through. So without trying to define that too much, I just tried to show it. So maybe it's in my humor, or maybe it's in my curiosity, or maybe it's in what I decide to focus on, which is usually where the patient or the client is clinging in some way to some notion of what's wrong with them or with their spouse or with their child or with their life. And whatever they've come up with is usually not the whole picture. if I can unstick them in some way from whatever the fixed notion is of what's wrong,

then I think that's me being a good therapist, but also using some kind of Buddhist something to create, to open the field, open the mind a little bit, so that some new possibility could come through. When you say clinging, that word really resonates with me because of all the things that people say, right? It's like sort of a manifest in itself, like the repetitive things that I hear people say about me, right? If I'm trying to be like, oh, what's my part in this?

And what are the things that I hear a lot? Because I listen to them. I know what they are. They're, you know. And it always comes out like tough or, you know, impatient, right? or thing. But clinging is actually really what I do. I actually have a tendency to cling to things that matter or things that I need or desire. It's like I never want to let go of them. It's hard for me to let go. We're all like that. Right. And so I wonder, you know,

what is the thing, just maybe in general, as a therapist, maybe, or as a Buddhist or both, as both is the reason why that's such a common concept that we all cling to these ideas or we cling to our expectations or we you know we can't let go that we hold so desperately is that like a brain function is it a i think it's a psychological function i think it's in an it's in an emotional instinct almost and and i think the reason that meditation uh exists or or the reason that it can be so engaging for people is that what it's really showing you in the recesses of your own mind is always how you cling, you know, like what you cling to and how you cling. That's what when you're sitting and trying to watch your breath or trying to watch

your mind, what you see is that, you know. And so because it becomes so obvious, you know, like really, oh, I'm having the same thought a hundred times in half an hour about what I'm trying to hold on to or the way somebody hurt my feelings or what I'm hoping is going to happen tomorrow. You know, that's all a kind of clinging. And you get hit to that in meditation

so that after the 20th time of it coming up, you start to pull away from the, what's the word, from the, like the valence of it, from the intensity of it, you know, and you start to see it just as, oh, it's really, there's that thought again, there's that, there's that feeling again. So you loosen your investment in the clinging. You loosen, I think the psychoanalytic word would be the cathesis to it, but you don't, we don't have to use that word, but you loosen the attachment to the clinging, you know, it doesn't totally go away, I don't think. I feel like some, I feel like you cling to things

that are familiar, even if they're negative, meaning sometimes people just exist better in the chaos, even though they want out of it. They can't seem to get out of it because it's what they're familiar with. There's almost a safety in the negative. Oh, you're totally right about that, I think. I read all this Zen literature because I ended up titling the book, The Zen of Therapy. So I needed some Zen. But I found this beautiful book. called Bring Me the Rhinoceros and other Zen coons that will save your life but yeah John Tarrant I got a lot from that book but he says one thing in there that's like what you're saying that if if you're

used to living in a small room you know and someone someone shows you like a big field you might get afraid and you might prefer to stay in the small room you know even if the happiness that you're seeking lies in the large field, you know, that happiness might not look like what we imagine it to be. And we're all attached. We all cling to the little worlds that we've created for ourselves in our own minds about who we are and who you are and who our family is, you know. And we're imprisoned by that, really. I know. I always, I, this sounds totally crazy, but I watch Al Centa's International is like my favorite.

And a lot of the time when you're watching this show, it's like these couples that are like, I was working in this job in Chicago and I, you know, whatever, I lost my dad. And I just was like, what am I doing? I don't want to be an accountant. I want to live in Portugal. And so we're doing it.

We're going to move the whole family to Portugal. I want to watch this show. And you're like, and every time I watch it, I'm like, I want to move. to Portugal. I want to leave everything behind. It's so liberating, you know, to just be like, you know what? We're leaving. We're moving. We're going to try something new. You're going to know so many people in Portugal. That's true. Every other person is moving to Portugal.

You're right. The truth is everywhere I would go other than like, you know, I probably know somebody. Wherever you go, there you are. I know. I know. Exactly. But this idea of attachments as well, you use that word. That's a very like common therapeutic word. Like what is your attachment style and how does that come up? And how does your family of origin relate to your attachment style? Like Oliver and I are both definitely anxious attachments, don't you think? Oh, yeah, for sure.

So it manifested in us actually our attachments. I'm a lexapro because I had so much anxious attachment. Whereas, you know, sometimes with people can have totally different attachment styles, like avoidant, even in the same family. Do you ever work with attachment styles? Is that something that you find? Oh, I think I think I'm always working with attachment styles, mostly anxious ones, because that's what I know best. But I think a lot of what I've done with the. Buddhist psychology with trying to integrate it with the Western stuff is really coming from

that place. I don't use the attachment theory language that much, but the big influence on my work is this British child psychiatrist named Donald Winnicott, and he's the one who popularized the phrase, the good enough mother, and he was like a pediatrician who became a child psychiatrist in the 40s and 50s. the 60s. And he wrote beautifully and endlessly about the anxiety that comes for the child whose parents are either too intrusive or too abandoning. And, you know, for a child who's not physically or, but he was talking also emotionally held in a good enough manner so that they

learn that their own emotional life doesn't have to be scared. that being held in that way allows you to learn how to hold your own emotions in a way that doesn't freak you out. But I love this concept though. I love it because it's good enough, meaning if you're too much like this

and you're too intrusive, you fuck them up. And if you're abandoning them, you're fucking up. That's right. Just good enough. You've got to let them figure shit out. So I always heard that as like another way of talking about the middle way. Like in Buddhism, it's always the middle way.

And in meditation, trying to do something similar with your mind, not be too intrusive, you know, and judging it all, not be too abandoning and just fall asleep. And so I think what you're really doing, this is my main theory, that what you're really doing, both in meditation and in therapy, is creating a holding environment, you know, for oneself, such that you can learn what you didn't learn in your anxious attachment time when you were growing up, you know. It's like another chance to learn how to become partners with the capacities that constitute you, you know? It's really interesting because I feel like, I feel like if there's one thing, like we have

very different parenting styles, but I think our emotional holding with our kids is very similar. Like, we're not over intrusive and we're not, like, we're not over codally and over, like, I need to be a part of everything and talk to me and I'm here for, I'm every, like, you know, and we're also not neglectful at all in terms of like emotionally. But then there's the physical part of it, you know, of, you know, always there, not always there. Like, what's that balance?

But I feel like based on, you know, at least from what I witnessed, like I feel like we actually have been able to do that part really well. Yeah, well, I think we've been mindful of how we were brought up. And then, you know, We're railing against it.

Okay. Exactly. Changing the narrative. I think that's been true for a lot of us. Course. Course light. Look, we always got to be on all the time. All right?

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When you can shift your mindset And it's not something that you need to spend hours a day doing This is something that with just a couple minutes a day You can start to transform Yeah, I mean I've been dealing with, you know, anxiety for a minute now You know, it's been sort of baked into me since I was a kid and you know it can take over it can be extremely debilitating and it's always amazing when you find the way out you know or at least the light at the end of the tunnel and new mood can be that light so

worry less and feel happier sign up for your trial at noom.com slash sibling that's n-o-o-m dot com slash sibling come on now sign up for your trial at newm dot com slash sibling that's newm N-O-O-M-D-com slash sibling. So how does Buddhism, I would assume that Buddhism within therapy, once you can get, once you can understand sort of the philosophies of mindfulness and understand the practices of it, it definitely opens up your, the practice of psychology, meaning you're able to sort of go deeper and figure out more things. about yourself and be more open to your own experience, right?

I mean, they sort of go hand in hand that way? I think almost. I'm not sure about the figuring out more things about yourself. I think I'm sort of weak on that end of things. But in terms of a vision for what the point of it all is, you know, like what really is the point of therapy and what do people really get out of it or why do they keep coming back? I had this experience when I was first starting out, going to visit Ram Dass, who had been a teacher

of mine when I was, you know, 20. And this was when I was like 40 or 45, I went to see him. And he was living in Tiburon. And he'd already had a stroke. And he was sort of making fun of me when I came to see him like, oh, are you a Buddhist shrink now? Are you a Buddhist psychiatrist now? And I sort of sheepishly said I was. And he said, the profound thing, he said, do you see them, meaning my patients?

do you see them as already free? And I was like, what's he talking about? Do I see them as already free? But gradually, I got what he was saying. And that is one of the things that has really stayed with me that I think might make me a little bit different from a lot of other more traditional therapists, you know, who don't have the Buddhist background.

Like, I could say yes to that question, you know. Like, I really do see the freedom in the person there already, even if they're having a lot of trouble. And I can pitch what I'm doing, what we're doing. I can pitch the, I can sense the trajectory of what I'm hoping for that they could know that too, you know. I listen to Ram Dass all the time. He's like my... Yeah, still you do? Yeah.

Whenever I'm feeling... really, like, just, whether it be frustrated and annoyed stress, like if there's something that I'm, that is making me feel like, like, why am I, again, holding or clinging? I'll put on, I'll put on Ram Dass, I'll just listen to in my ears. Because, I mean, he was just so profound. I mean, some of the things that he, they, it resonates so deeply with me. Well, he had a good, he was like a stand-up comic, too, you know,

so he could do it in a, so relatable. So relatable. And his, and his, the concepts of doubt. are the things that are, I think, because that's the thing that I cling to the most, is like, don't die yet, don't die yet. You know, I've got too much to do, I've got too much to do,

I've got to be here for my kids. That's the, that's the mantra I'm trying to constantly let go of. I'm with you. It's like, for me, it's the biggest thing. It's my kids. It's like, I can't die. I have to be here for the kids.

Like I have to, what the hell is, what are they going to do? I don't want to, and I'm not, it's not the fear of death. It's the fear of not, you know, and so I think that that finds, every time when I say, what's bothering me right now? Like, what is it really? The core of it is really that.

I need to figure this out before I die. I need to make sure that I get to do this before or I need to make sure all these ducks are in a row because, and I don't want to think about it like that, you know? Well, fear is the, or life like that. Fear is the root of so many different things. But in your experience, like specifically the fear of death. I mean, how big is that in your patients? Oh, I think that that's underlying almost everything, just like you're saying. Yeah.

I mean, some of my patients have actually had their loved ones die. So then their relationship to death, it's not just fear of death. or it's also like, oh, my God, this death really exists. And I couldn't stop it, you know, I couldn't stop it. And now what am I supposed to do? So sometimes to get to the root of certain issues, do you have to go that deep and dig into that? And then they sort of have this epiphany or this idea that, okay,

I'm maybe not so afraid to die anymore. And all of a sudden, you know, I don't know, I can get a boner or whatever. See, but that's where Ram Dass comes into me, Oliver. You can always get the bones. Jesus. But that's where for me, like the Ram Dass thing comes. And when I'm feeling that way and I listen to the Ram Dass, it's like a light bulb goes off immediately.

I'm like, you know what? This is what this is the, it just is, isn't it? This is Sad Guru, you know, he always says this thing. I thought was really interesting too, which is like, you know, if you're stuck inside of the, oh, fuck, what is I'm going to get it wrong? if you're always stuck inside of like the if you're not looking to solve something then you're only like look ahead of it and solve it

then you're only stuck in the in the what did he use it was like about death about the need to be Allison we're not cutting any of this out oh fuck no what's the word I'm gonna get that really what he's saying is instead of feeling like you need to be held or like consoled you know, you need to think about the solution

and the only solution to death is to live. So basically, teach man to fish type of a vibe. Like don't give him, don't give the teach man to fish and he'll be never go hungry. The idea is that the second you let go of this concept or the attachment to what it is to lose, you realize that we haven't lost really anything that that's just the natural process of everything.

and that we are living. So the only solution really in moments like this is to live. Does that make sense? No. Am I making sense or I'm totally butchering this? Are you channeling something? I understand what you're... Let's go back to what I would say.

Let's go back to the bonus. You're channeling something. What I would say about the fear, I think with fear of death, it's the fear to focus on. You know, I think death is being used often as an excuse to be a first. and that people are comfortable in their fear. That's like the small room that we were talking about before. And what if, where you're going is saying death is part of life.

So why do we have to fear it? It's a natural thing. But so if the wide, if the big field, you know, if we don't have to be afraid in our lives, if we don't have to set death up as the big thing that we attach our fear, to, then we could just work with fear. And, you know, do we have to be bound by fear? Do we have to be constrained by fear? And what's the opposite of fear? You know, it has something to do with love, I think. Mm-hmm. So if we just, if we, and that's why you're, you get afraid of death,

because it's going to take you away from everybody that you love and are the people you love going to be okay. But anyway. Yeah. Okay, well, let's talk about injured innocence, because I really want to understand this a little bit better you talk about um i wrote this uh uh down that like what does buddhism teach you or teach anyone about about injured innocence and what is it really um injured innocence is when uh someone who you love uh accuses you of doing something that in your heart you didn't mean or you didn't do. And so you have the feeling inside of how could they think that of me? How could they accuse me of that? It's like a kind of feeling of righteous indignation. So it's like the innocent part of you is injured. That's the feeling. So I like the sound of

the phrase injured innocence. And so I've used it in various ways. there's a feeling, going back to the attachment kind of conversation, there's a feeling that a lot of people have had as children of feeling unattended to or misunderstood or not seen for who they really are, but, you know, having to fit into the mold of who the parents or whomever want them to be. And that's a kind of injured innocence also. You know, when too much intrusion or too much abandoning. from the family leaves you with a feeling of either emptiness or worthlessness or or that kind of you know the fighting aspect the righteous indignation but um in buddhism the big task of insight meditation is to try to find the self you know with the self that buddha said doesn't exist in the way we think that it does. So the task is to the way we were talking about focusing on the clinging. The task of meditation is to feel where you are most yourself, which is usually in the clinging, and then to learn to see through it, you know, let go of it

or see how it's really just a construct. So they say that the best time, the best way to find the that doesn't really exist the way we think it does, is in the feeling of injured innocence. Because then you're really feeling like, how could they do that to me? How could they think that about me? So that feeling of me is very strong. And if you make that feeling of me the object of meditation, then you have an opportunity to part the waters a little bit, you know, not to be so stuck in yourself. Higher dose. I've talked about this before. I couldn't be happier to have higher dose as a sponsor. This is something that I'm a big believer in. We need to sweat. So here's what higher dose is.

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relate differently to the things that happened to us? Like, how do we... Practice. It's hard. Yeah. But, you know, I think that's where therapy can be good, and that's where meditation can be useful, is that's what you're doing all the time in those environments, is you're practicing, relating differently to the stuff.

I had a therapist say to me, my therapist. say to me that part of the fear of actually just letting things happen in a circumstance like that is the fear that when I do let go, that I won't want to be, that maybe there will be the realization that the relationship really isn't right. Yeah, I was going to say something similar, but I think there's a big fear. Like when the rupture happens, when you find you're hating the person that you're with or they've misunderstood you or accused you of something. When the rupture happens, and oftentimes people can't stand,

they can't stand the way they're feeling, and one or the other will, like, walk out and leave. And that's, like, the worst thing to do when you're fighting, and, you know, unless you're prone to violence, and it's a way of stopping yourself from hurting the other person physically. But to trust that these ruptures happen, that it's the nature of an intimate relationship, and that the love, it's like the already free thing,

that the love is still there underlying even the fight or the disagreement or the misunderstanding that the love is still there and that it will reassert itself. You know, there's a kind of trust or faith there. I have a negative question, but like, how do you know when to quit? How do you know when to quit what?

A relationship. Yeah, it's like, oh, you know, you definitely. Yeah, it's just done. You definitely know. You do? I mean, the right, the right... So many people are together who probably shouldn't be, you know what I mean? Not necessarily.

They probably should be. They probably should be. Well, I was before my wife, I was in a relationship for three years with a Buddhist. Nietzsche and Shonan Buddhism. It was different. Yes. So I was not different. I do that.

Well, it was a different sect of Buddhism, I guess. It's all one Buddhism. Yeah. Go ahead. So you were for three years. And you were... Yeah. And you were, you were loyal.

I was in it way too long, meaning I was just scared because I was just a wimp. And I was like, yeah, God. And then finally she calls and she's like, what are we doing? I'm like, yeah, what are we doing? Even though I knew it was over long before it was, I was just too scared to actually say, let's not be together anymore. Yeah, but that's what he's, that's what we're talking about. It's that sometimes, I mean, you, you probably still have to learn how to break up with people. Well, that's your, yeah, but that's like, what were you scared of?

Hurting her, I guess, you know? Yeah. And just that, that's really what it was. I didn't want to be the guy. So I made her break up with me, basically. And then we slept together for like five months after that. That was that. Oh, the best sex we'd ever had, you know?

But what is that, by the way? I mean, because that's relatable. It's like you are now separate and all of a sudden sex just gets off the charts good. What is that? You weren't worrying about hurting her anymore. I guess. I guess it was just free?

Yeah. Because that happens all the time. There's a relatable. There's a relatable thing, though. The pressure was off. There's no pressure to like, there's no performative pressure except maybe, you know, Her personal thing.

I don't have that. Do you do couples? I try not to because I always take sides. But sometimes people insist, and then I do my best with them. Do you really take sides? Is that how it worked? Of course. That's so funny.

I have a question about anger. Is anger something, if it's harbored in you, if it's something that you have, it's like, familial. Can it be released as an energy? Or does it always stay there? Is there always that ability to feel or tap into that kind of intense anger or rage? From my experience, which is all I can go on there, I don't think it can go away. I think we all have that quality, that depth, that intensity of anger. that you touched on, you know, I think, and I think in meditation in particular or in intimate

relationships, that's another way. Like, you inevitably have to face the horror of yourself, you know, like you just see everything. And it's not all pretty. But I do think the promise of Buddhism, and I think it's sort of supported by psychodynamic therapy, is that the, those energies, like the anger might not go away, but the energy can be transformed so that it becomes like all that intensity that you felt as rage or whatever, it's actually your power, it's your power and you might need to tap it at various times, either in your work or with your family or, you know, yeah, so that it becomes, it becomes more available because you, I think you get less frightened of, even of the horror of yourself, you know,

more willing to, more willing to admit stuff, more willing to be kind of open to everything, and therefore that stuff that you had been afraid of becomes available for use. that's that's what i hope for yeah my my instinct when she asked a question which i love that question because i i'm with you my insight i know nothing but my instinct was like no absolutely not it doesn't just go away yeah you can't like release the energy you can right transform right there's there's some relationship between aggression and between anger aggression and compassion that i'm reaching for in my book i had when i first put the book book together, I structured the four parts of the patients. I structured it around the, you know,

the path of meditation. So the first part was clinging and the second part was mindfulness and the third part was insight. And then the fourth part was going to be compassion. But then the, and I had them, you know, associated with the four seasons that the therapy took place in, et cetera. But then the editor read through them and she was like, Mark, that whole fourth part where you're saying it's about compassion. Every one of those cases is about anger. Because I think it was like working with anger is what allowed compassion, you know, when someone gets comfortable enough, when they accept their anger, even anger at the other person, then that's what allows them to be compassionate ultimately to themselves and to others. But so I, but she was right. I looked at them all

and they were all about anger. So I changed the order of the book. So now it's clinging mindfulness insight and then aggression. And then I made a last chapter that's about, you know, about kindness, basically, or about compassion. How many subjects? It's so interesting because I, oh. How many subjects in the book? Yeah.

I tried to pick one a week for a year. So I skipped a few weeks, but there's probably 40 or 45. And some people recur. Yeah. There's a few people who recur, but mostly they're all different people. And I had to give pseudonyms to them. Yeah. And then show everybody.

what I wrote and make sure it was okay. It was a whole very interesting process. Was there anyone who was like, fuck, no? Only one person said no. And it was a person who came to see me only once for a consultation and got there half an hour late. And so I just had a half hour with them. But I thought the session was really good and I wrote it down.

But they said, you know, I don't really know you. And I would rather not be in your book. Right. But everybody else said yes. And no one really tinkered with the material. And the only back and forth I had with people was about the pseudonyms that I chose for that. I don't want to be named Doug. That's really what it was like.

But a couple of times, once I chose somebody without knowing, I picked their middle name that they hated to be their name. So I had to change that. A couple of other things. Where do you stand on sort of happenstance, you know, and just the mystical and connection and fate, destiny, and all that? You know, I mean, do you believe that we energetically are connected and there is no such thing as a coincidence? I think there is such a thing as a coincidence and that a lot of stuff is random. but I also think that when certain things line up

and it doesn't feel like an accident you know so I think there's some other there's something else operating that we don't understand but that that affects us I'm with you on that and it's interesting because we talk to a lot of different doctors and everyone has a very different

feeling about that and that's a question I always I mean I always love asking people that have studied Western medicine. And I find that, you know, I was at this event and I spoke to one of the top neuroscientists. He's at UCLA. And I asked him, I said, you know, do you believe that there's something else? Or do you believe that when we die, it's over? Do you, like, is this it?

You know? And he said, if you would have asked me 10 years ago, I would have said absolutely not. There's no way. We die, we die. He's like, but in his last 10, 5 to 10 years, my view on that has completely changed. Oh, that's great. Yeah, which I thought was really interesting, just the research, how much we don't know.

I did a conversation a couple of years ago at the Rubin Museum with a psychic medium named Laurelind Jackson who channels, you know, people from the other side. fun who um who who who who i love i she has helped helped me and helped other patients that i've worked with enormously so i did a public conversation with her where uh i asked her questions about how it started to happen for her and what you know what her take on reality was and i got a lot of feedback oh how brave you know like a western train like you're willing to talk about this kind of thing but it was it was one of the it was one of my favorite uh i mean conversations i ever have you know I kind of look at people who can connect, just maybe, maybe because I feel that way,

but that can connect to something that's outside of this. And then you think about the science of it, and you're like, if we're on three dimensions and there's multiple, multiple dimensions, how insanely self-centered are we to think that we are all that exists? Right? That's how I. In terms of the synchronicity,

one of the sessions that I talk about, in the book. A patient was with me and was telling me a dream. And somehow I had the inclination to, I asked him if he had ever thrown the E Ching. And he didn't know what it was. So I took it off my shelf and I showed him how to do it. And we threw the E Ching to help interpret his dream. And the reading from the E Ching was so perfectly attuned. It was so right on to what the dream was about that, you know, it was just completely startling. So was that random, you know, like, it's fun to play with that. Yeah, what is that connectivity and like, what is energy and how does it really connect?

And I mean, I don't know. I could talk about this forever. I think the one thing that, you know, we talk a lot about kindness, what is your recommendation for people who want to bring more mindfulness and kindness? into their life? Well, the first thing is, I don't think meditation is for everyone. I don't think it's right for everyone. I don't, you know, so to feel that you have to practice mindfulness or have to practice

meditation and that you're somehow deficient if you're not doing it, I think that's totally wrong. So for people who are drawn to it, who like it, great. But there are many ways of introducing that kind of. of sensibility into one's life, such as opening the door and going outside and standing and listening to the sounds of the city or the sounds of nature, or taking a walk with no agenda for the walk, just to change the physical and mental and emotional boundaries that that you're usually subjecting yourself to.

So just simply by changing the channel, you know, on your mind, you're introducing a meditative sensibility. That's really all you're doing when you sit down to meditate is you're taking yourself away from your phone, you're taking yourself away from your family, and in a certain way, you're taking yourself away from the preoccupations of your mind. So even something as simple as watching television, which I know everyone is like, you know, criticizes people for wasting their time watching television. But I think that that culture, you know, music and film and sports and, you know, all the stuff

that generally has talked about as distractions, I think that those are in certain ways functioning like meditations because they pull us away from our usual preoccupation. So there's something liberating, something opening and freeing in that. So I think that that's one whole way of answering the question. You know, you know, where I exist, I haven't been diving in a minute, but I used to dive a lot. Diving, diving. Oh, my God.

I mean, it doesn't get more meditative because, first of all, you're hearing your breath and you are so, you are so right in that moment. You know, it is so meditative. It's crazy. No, it's so alive. But I think, or sailing. I mean, why do people, you know, gravitate to. to their boats

if they can afford them or playing golf playing tennis, going swimming all that stuff is functioning I love sailing that's like one of my favorite things is absolutely sailing diving on the other hand

it brings up every fear I have and then when I had to do it for a movie I remember getting to the seafloor and like sitting down and I was staring at this wall of fish and it was so beautiful and I you know And I just sobbed.

I just sat there. In your mask? Yes. I just literally sobbed. And I had the best dive ever. I ended up diving around. I was with a bunch of people. And I was like, oh my God.

But that was like, you know, get me in like murky catalina water and forget it. I'm like a cartoon trying to jump out of the water. All right. Well, I'm going to leave you with one last question. But don't overthink this. Okay. Okay. Well, I also want to make sure

How have I been doing up to them? Huh? All right. You ready? Go ahead. Why? So, you want to hear how I ended my book? Yeah.

Yes. Oh, there's an answer. It's sort of along the same lines. So I thought maybe this is a little cheesy. I don't know. But on the last page, on the last page, on the last page of the book, after all the text is done, I have one little haiku because I use these Zen poems throughout the book.

So the last one says, only one colon matters. A koan is like the riddle that the Zen, you know, people use in meditation to sort of confuse your rational mind, you know. And so only one koan matters, you. Mm-hmm. Oh, that's a great. That's a good answer to a while. It sort of goes with the why.

That's perfect. Oh, this was the best. That's perfect. Wow. Well, we want you on, you know, every season. Just write a book every year. I'll come whatever you want. Yeah, just write books.

But I don't know about writing more books. We love talking to you, and you're just so insightful and wonderful and kind. And you made my day better. You make me. Thanks. Yeah, this was great. I had the best time last time, and I had the best time this time. Good.

So I'm really grateful. I'm really grateful to both of you. It's, you know, completely enjoyable. Oh, thanks. We're grateful for you. Sibling Revelry is executive produced by Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson. Producer is Allison Bresden. Editor is Josh Windish.

Music by Mark Hudson, aka Uncle Mark. If you want to show us some love, rate the show and leave us a review. This show is powered by Simplecast. Hey, it's your favorite Jersey girl, Gia Judice. Welcome to Casual Chaos, where I share my story. This week, I'm sitting down with Vanderpump Rule Star, Shea Shea. I don't really talk to either of them, if I'm being honest. There will be an occasional text, one way or the other, from me to Ariana,

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