Sidebar: A Suits Watch Podcast - "A Million Magical Moments" - Pt. 1 with Aaron Korsh & Kevin Bray

Episode Date: February 11, 2025

Mom and Dad are in studio! That's right - this week we have creator Aaron Korsh and producing director Kevin Bray in studio to discuss ALL of season 1 of "Suits!" We cover what the early days of "Suits" felt like, hear Kevin's theory that Harvey wears Ugg boots at home, discuss which magical moments Aaron believes really made "Suits," point out Kevin's special connection with Patrick, and more. Come back next week to hear Aaron and Kevin share their theories on the can-opener, to hear the story behind Megan being cast as Rachel Zane, as well as Aaron's initial reaction to the "Suits: LA" pilot.  Email us a voice memo of your questions about Suits at [e-mail]. We may use it on the show!Follow us on Instagram & TikTok - @suitssidebarGet access to all the podcasts you love, music channels and radio shows with the SiriusXM App! Get 3 months free using this show link: https://siriusxm.com/sidebar

Hi, I'm Patrick Adams. And I'm Sarah Rafferty. And this is Sidebar, our Suits Watch podcast where each week we go through an episode of the show. Last week, we watched the finale of season one. And with that came a lot of feelings, a lot of questions, a lot of thoughts about the season as a whole. So who better to discuss all of that than with the creator himself, Aaron Korsch and director producer, Kevin Bray. We're going to discuss the season as a whole. So who better to discuss all of that than with the creator himself, Aaron Korsch,

and director, producer, Kevin Bray. We're going to discuss the season. We're going to reminisce about what it was like making it. And as always, we're going to answer your questions. So excited to have these guys here today. Maybe we should tell the audience. Let's give a little bio. Let's talk about who they are.

Aaron Korsch. So we are beyond grateful to have Aaron Korsh back in the studio. Listeners, you might remember that he came to talk to us at the beginning of Sidebar when we were talking about the pilot. His presence and support has been felt during this whole run through his generous texts

and his voice memos and his calls and his consults. Aaron is the creator and executive producer of Suits and is currently shooting the upcoming Suits LA. And we know Kevin Bray is the creator and executive producer of Suits and is currently shooting the upcoming Suits LA. And we know Kevin Bray is the director of 12 episodes of Suits, including the pilot and our producing director for the first two seasons. But listener, if you don't know his name, you have absolutely seen his work. Kevin has directed episodes of so many great shows, including Succession, Shameless, The Morning Show, The Penguin, The Franchise, and Clipped, which he also executive produced.

He's also directed the feature films All About the Benjamins and Walking Tall, as well as music videos for everyone from Whitney Houston to the Beastie Boys. So how lucky are we that we have these two here? We don't want to waste any time and just get in there. Yeah, let's get right to it. Enjoy the conversation. With Aaron and Kevin. ["Sensei Fireman"] This is really crazy, because this is the first time we've spoken since he fired me. So I don't know how this is going to go. You guys, we have our faces for radio on.

I love getting to put you guys on camera. That feels right. I'm glad you do. I don't like it at all. Have you played a role in Suits 2 yet? I call it Suits 2. I'm in 40% of the series. 40%? Shirtless.

Is there another way? I didn't know. All right guys, we're doing this. Let's get real. We want to take full advantage of your being here. Thank you guys so much for coming. We're gonna do an intro, but again, we have Aaron Korsh, the creator of Suits, and we have Kevin Bray, the director extraordinaire of how many episodes?

I should know that being 12 episodes. I think it's more. More? I might guess 16. Producing. Yeah, 16 may be true. Director of the pilot of Suits, producing director of two seasons. First two seasons. Yeah, I just feel like if there was another person who sort of created the show in this first season,

it was Kevin Bray. I know you wouldn't like that. I knew you knew that was gonna happen. I knew you wouldn't like that, we'll cut that. We were prepared for that. This is the Pink A Fight with Aaron section. That's not true. We are the mother and father of Suits.

Good, okay. You said it was mom and dad. I said that last night, I just didn't know how Aaron would take that. That's so sweet. Mom and dad. Who's the mother and who's the father? Mother. Mother.

Father, got it. Just for the listener, they exactly said the opposite. Mother and another word that starts with an F. Oh, you're using mother as half a word. Yeah, yeah, not cool. I was gonna check how many episodes Kevin directed. I know Anton beat me. So I have 12 episodes I do have to read.

I know Anton might have 16. So Anton might have 16. Mike Smith had 11, I think. No, no, no. Did Mike Smith have 11? Mike Smith was the most, I recall that. Mike Smith has more than 12? I believe Mike Smith is more than Kevin.

Anton, I think, might be more than Kevin. Kevin, we took that personally, you know. You going off and getting all busy with like. You shouldn't have. Stuff. You gotta send your baby off. He's gotta go. He's gotta go do the fancies.

Gotta go do the fancies stuff. If you love somebody. He had to leave us to go do succession. Yeah. I guess. Which I don't talk about on this podcast. Not at all. Because if we dare say that, then the trolls are coming for you.

I'm not saying a word. Have we talked about how many succession actors there are in the pilot? We talked about it extensively. How cool is that? Can I talk about what happened? Yeah, I mean, we can talk about it. Patrick made a joke and he said, when we were talking about that, he was like, suits, I'm going to say it.

I'm going to say that suits walked so that Succession could run. And he was kidding, obviously, we were talking about it, but we were really excited about all the Succession actors that we had at the beginning of our season and thought it was really incredible as gigantic Succession fans. So then of course, a publication in Hollywood just quoted him with no context or no tone

and the trolls came for us. People were angry. But you were a big part of why I said it too because you were a big part of creating the vision and the idea of what suits is. You were a big part of the aesthetic of suits. And then you went to direct a lot of succession. I know you didn't create succession with them.

You weren't, you didn't direct the pilot obviously but you brought your special sauce to that show. And so it felt like a reasonable thing to say, and I'll still get in trouble just for talking about it. So when you were on Succession, did you ever give a direction to Brian Goss? I did, yeah. Is that like?

Yeah, he said, he said, that was very inspired, young man, when I gave him the- That's a pretty good imitation. The cat in the bag under the chair. Oh, I said, when Jeremy comes out and screaming at everyone in the board meeting in the hotel. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Where he's losing his mind, where he's sick. Yeah. I said, and we were shooting the whole scene with him screaming over here and him having the UTI in the chair over there. Yeah. And I go, Brian, I need you to think

that that is one of your counsel. I need you to think that that is one of your counsel. I need you to think that Jeremy is, and he does this whole improv where he's like, why is Blake so upset over there? What's his problem? Oh, wow. When he does that whole thing. That was improvise.

That was, yeah. Oh, wow. That was great. There's a whole run on it and they left it in. It was pretty fun. Amazing. And do you have anything for me about Matthew McFadden? That I could just- He's the most polite, fearless person. I had a note because sometimes directors have chainsaws and they need a scalpel and I went

up to him and I had this idea about something and I said, can you please do this? And he didn't, nothing. He said, sure you please do this? And he didn't nothing. He said, sure, I'll do it. Let's do it. The next one. And he did it. And then I just get the creepy crawlies because I can see how bad it is when he's doing it.

But he's doing exactly what I asked. And he's not making fun of me. It was when he and Shiv were making love in the kitchen in that same episode, they come and have a little moment aside about having a baby, I think. And then I come and I go, oh, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, guys, don't worry about it,

but I think I know what you want, so watch this one. Oh. Ooh. Oh, really? Yeah, he said, I know what you're asking for. I think now I understand what you're actually asking. And then he does it. Now that I explored it in that way.

And I was like, yes, that's, I did not articulate that. But see in that way. Yes, I didn't know how to articulate that. But see, that's your thing though, the communication, right, with you. Like sometimes you're talking in a more abstract, artistic way. Jazzercise. Yeah, yeah. Just can you jazzercise it this time?

And he jazzercised it and he knew what you meant. You know, I was in the edit bay when we're doing in the edit bay. Like sometimes I say, Kimmy we blah, blah, blah. And the editor, he doesn't do what I said to do. He does what I wanted him to do. Yeah. But I said it wrong and they just know how to make it work.

It's great. It's the best. So we are here today to talk about everybody's special sauce. So Kevin, can we start with you? Because we've talked to Aaron. This is thank you, Aaron, for having this be your second time joining us here on Sidebar, the podcast. Under protest. Kevin, when you came to Suits,

when you first read the script, where were you at this point in your career? And how did the script get to you? It came to me from Alex Sepul, correct? Because of the work on White Collar. So I was working at USA a lot. I started with Burn Notice. I think I did some promos for Burn Notice

and Jeffrey Donovan, that's the actor's name, right? Said, this is what the show should look like. Why can't we do slick shots like this? And so next thing I was on an episode of Burn No Vs and then I was on an episode of White Collar and then I think I did an episode that Sepul really, really liked and then he put me in front of you guys, correct?

And I had met with Bartis, the guys from Hypnotic, with David Bartis. Dave Bartis and Gene Klein. And Gene Klein, yeah. Yeah previously on um Kit kit car. Well, they were remaking Knight Riders. Yeah, not like to talk about that if they come in, please You know I I ended up getting called back Because of that, I mean Aaron you you saw the other side of it.

And then- Yeah, I don't know how it got to you. Was it a meet-you? Well, the first meeting was on, maybe both meetings were on the phone. This is what I remember. The phone, oh. Yeah, because he was away somewhere, I don't know.

Or was he just shooting Law and Order, Criminal Intent, or I was shooting one of the White Collar episodes? I just remember, I'm gonna tell a story, you might not even know this, but maybe you do. So, you know, I was very inexperienced and they were presenting me with directors and we had several meetings and the first meeting with Kevin on the phone,

I was like, I love this guy. He said, he said, I want it to be a cross between, I forget exactly, Michael Clayton and like how to make it in America The how to make in America will be how he shot the mic part and Michael Clayton combined with I forget the movie the Julia Roberts Clive Owen movie anyway, mm-hmm So and I loved it I loved him and I watched

The all about the Benjamins and I was like like, this guy can direct, this is great. Then we had a second follow-up meeting, and it was like everything Kevin said in the first meeting, he completely forgot all of it. And he's saying totally different stuff, and I'm like, who the hell is this guy? I don't want to work with him. Perfect.

This is what I don't know if Kevin knows it. This is the perfect. Yeah, you told me this. Yeah, I told you. OK. And I wanted another director who I will not say who it is. And basically, well, I'll tell you guys, but I don't want to, you know, worry told you. Okay. And I wanted another director who I will not say who it is. And basically, well, I'll tell you guys, but I don't wanna, you know, whatever. So, anyway, they basically said,

well, too bad you're having Kevin Bray as a director. And the way I work is once you're on my team, I'm not gonna like hold a grudge or anything. And I would say within what, 24 hours, it was like I'd known Kevin my whole life and he was like my closest friend. So I still regret that they shoved you down my throat. How close were you guys in the process leading up

to shooting the pilot? How much time do you spend together? What's that relationship like? An incredible amount of time. I mean, we were every day for 12 hours, 11 hours. Yeah, because it started with casting. We had already cast you and Gabriel. Yeah.

Because we couldn't get a director until we had the lead roles cast. We didn't have an official pickup. I think I was cast first. He was cast first. We learned that from Bonnie. Yeah. So the chemistry was-

We didn't do chemistry. You did chemistry with- With Megan. With Megan, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So to be clear, Kevin had nothing to do with that. But anyway. But no, after that, but anyway

But no after that we were casting all the time. It was like it was it was it was great weird. Yeah, everything Yeah, it was a lot of fun. This first time I had been back to New York to see something of that You know magnitude so I'd shot in New York, but this is as much as something could be mine Could be it was really fantastic to go to New York. What jumped out at you when you read what was called A Legal Mind at that time? Like what was drawing? Do you remember your pitch? Do you remember like what you wanted to do with it? What excited you about it?

Just to be clear, he didn't remember his pitch from the first meeting to the second meeting. So he definitely knows where you're at. I went in there 15 years ago. Tell me what was the difference between the first meeting to the second meeting. I went in there 15 years ago. Tell me what was the difference between the first meeting and the second meeting? I don't know, but you were in the second meeting, you were saying opposite things

that you had said in the first meeting. Perfect. Honestly, that is the perfect introduction to Kevin. It is, but that's because you're so spontaneous with the way that you work. In the moment, baby. We talked about this with Aaron when we first talked about the pilot,

how that first shot where we're coming down the building and then we go into the building, then we follow Louis across the building, then we come up behind Gina, right? That that was not something that was like totally micromanaged and fraught and chosen. It was something that was discovered. You sent a camera across the street, right?

Yeah, yeah. And said, somebody get this. And you know, a lot of it is organic with you and that's what it feels like when we get to be directed by you. You're discovering it. You're discovering things in the moment. And that's sometimes what happened, I felt like,

with the famous Kevin Bray wonders, which we've talked about, is that you sort of see something, and then you change your idea into this more organic thing. And then add stuff in. Absolutely, I think, yeah. I mean, once we get there, I'm not a guy that is beholden to the... There's a plan that we can do if we don't have another idea, a better one.

And if I'm allowed to act like that, then that's the way I'm gonna shoot. We get there and we rehearse it so many times with us, I'm gonna have another idea, a better one. And if I'm allowed to act like that, then that's the way I'm gonna shoot. We get there and we rehearse it so many times with us where we found things. I mean, you and the window sill, I don't know what episode that was. When we're sitting in the boardroom?

I'm jumping forward. That was 102. Yeah. It was the first one. That's an amazing memory. That was the first shot we shot on stage. I remember. Yeah, that, like, I love that. It's so fun to watch the shows again

and see, as I was saying to you earlier, I was like, that's a good shot. Who did that? Oh, I did that shot. That's good. And kind of like a bowing to all my references and all the people from the past that have kind of inspired me to even do this.

So that was probably somewhat improvised, right? Like, why don't you try it up there? You kind of walked in. You were big on trying. Let's try it. Let's see how it feels. Patrick, I should tell you that Kevin told me that he prepared for today.

He watched a bunch of the episodes. He, you know. My episodes. I also want to say, wait, because he said a second ago, you said, I watched that and I really liked it. And I want to say all the time, I mean, it's 15 years since we shot the pilot. And every once in a while, every so many years, Kevin will just call me up and be like, man, I killed it on that pilot.

Good. He did. He was like, I said, you were great, man. This is your great stuff. He's like, yeah, I was, man. I was in it. I was in the pocket. I mean, I don't do that often, but I'll tell you, every time I come back to that thing,

I think it holds up. I think there's a timelessness to that thing that is pretty good. I love that you love. I do love that you love. And that's what Aaron wanted us to have with this experience because we hadn't watched everything and decided to embark on doing this podcast

and watching it together. He did say, like, I hope you can find the joy of what we all made together and appreciation for it. That kind of thing. So it's great you did that. The nostalgia brings an aroma of that melancholy sometimes. Like it's just, yeah, it's been very sweet to review this.

To review, it sounds like the end, we're not done. But I don't think I answered your question about reading the pilot. I didn't understand it when I read it, but I understood some parts of it. There was an energy, there was Aaron's humor. The humor is the humor that I like, whether it be Jonathan Demme or Howard Hawks, like the cracking dialogue, the kind of rhythm, Aaron's b up bop or but up. Bob.

Right. That's it right there. Yeah, like that the snare, this what is that? That's the snare or the cymbal. I don't know, but that hit comes much later, you know, or sometimes it doesn't come at all. So I think I as much as I couldn't. So I think I as much as I couldn't literally ingest some of the stuff like I intuitively, and I was like, and then that, initially it was, it was Clayton, Clayton was,

is still a very strong movie really was kind of awesome. And to combine that with, I thought the immediacy of how to make it in America. Yeah, which I do want to say ironically, starred Brian Greenberg, who is in the suit. Oh, that's the show on HBO about, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. So those components and for them to, okay,

I'll jump to the, when we finished, and I think it was Bartis who said, not often do we get a situation where a director will present us something and at the end it kind of looks very much like what he presented in the first place. And that was one of the biggest compliments I ever got. I don't know, was that you or was that Bartis? Wait, wait, wait, you mean the, we present the pilot, like when you actually directed the pilot.

Right, when we do the visual pitches and we went in that room and it was so frightening to be in that room and do those, you know, where we had to do the image spores and all that stuff. What is that? I don't know what that is. The visual, visual. It was just the presentation to the network

of what the show was gonna look like. The vision board of, you show was gonna look like. Look like, yeah. The vision board of style and. Yeah, and I think we did, we presented that and we made it and we did it. I mean. And that's the two of you together now. You're working together for that?

That's Kevin. I mean, we worked on that together, but I didn't. You're okay-ing things though? I mean, if something stuck out or something, I would say something, but in particular at that time, I had very little visual knowledge or reference or point of view or anything. So it was really Kevin.

I was much more focused on just performance at the time. Now, I've. Yeah. The the Mike Ross Mohawk thing. This opportunity mistake, this opportunity. Well, it gets a little bit of what I'm going to be able to do that. I don't think I'm going to be able to do that. I don't think I'm going to be able to do that. I don't think I'm going to be able to do that. I don't think I'm going to be able to do that. I don't think I'm going to be able to do that. I don't think I'm going to be able to do that. I don't think I'm going to be able to do that.

I don't think I'm going to be able to do that. I don't think I'm going to be able to do that. I don't think I'm going to be able to do that. I don't think I'm going to be able to do that. I don't think I'm going to be able to do that. I don't think I'm going to be able to do that. I don't think I'm going to be able to do that. I don't think I'm going to be able to do that.

I don't think I'm going to be able to do that. I don't think I'm going to be able to do that. I don't think I'm going to be able to do that. I don't think I'm going to be able to do that. I don't think I'm going to be able to do that. I don't think I'm going to be able to do that. I don't think I'm going to be able to do that. I don't think I'm going to be able to do that.

I don't think I'm going to be able to do that. I don't think I'm going to be able to do that. I don't think I'm going to be able to do that. I don't think I'm so curious and we don't have to answer it as one question, but just sort of contextually throughout the conversation is like where that was helpful, where it was hard, how you guys overcame that at times when you would, because you both come at problems from totally different directions. You have different references. You want to kill each other at the time. And different communication styles. Totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But you also respect each other immensely. And so I think that that's a really rare, amazing thing. It has a lot to do with why we're sitting here today and Suits is such a hit and you're shooting a second Suits. So, again, you don't have to answer that question but I wanna get to the bottom of it a bit about like what you love about each other, what you loved right away, what was tough right away

and how you overcame that to help make the show what it was. I think it's laughs. I think we make each other laugh in a profound or a unique way to our relationship. I probably, I mean, I'm putting words maybe in the mouth. I'll say, I want to start with it because when you were saying that there's, we are different in many, many ways, but there's two ways I was going to, maybe more than two ways, but we are both silly. We both will laugh at ourselves and each other.

That's number one. And that's a lot of Harvey and Mike, right? Like giving each other shit and being able to laugh at each other and ourselves. That's number one. And that was apparent in 45 seconds into once we started working together. But the other thing is the one approach that we are similar is we do both when we get there are willing to see. Right. Like for me, from a writing standpoint, if we break a story a certain way, but I get to writing the scene and it doesn't feel right, I'm not writing it the way we said we were going to write it. I'm going to change it if it doesn't feel right in the moment. Kevin shoots that way.

So those are the similarities, which were more important than the differences to me. The differences, you know, if there was a frustrating thing for me, it was not that we disagreed. Once in a while, it was when we were done disagreeing. I said this to you a few, because I had wanted Kevin,

look, the Suits LA pilot was shot by Vic Mahoney. She did an outstanding job, and I wouldn't trade it for a million dollars, whatever. But I had originally wanted Kevin to direct the pilot, but he was on the phone. Which is not a lot of money for you. Yeah, that's true. That was about to happen. I wasn't making it as I said it, I'm sorry.

I wouldn't trade it for a billion dollars. That was just a couple things that't trade it for a billion dollars. That I would trade for a million dollars. But no, I would not trade that experience. And I'm so glad she directed that pilot. But I had wanted Kevin to, but he was unavailable for he's on an HBO deal. He's he's too fancy for all of us. But I know I totally forgot where I was going on.

Oh, no, that that I'm stubborn. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That I'm stubborn. Yeah. Oh, yeah. When he was maybe, he's so stubborn. And when we had discussed if we could get him out of his deal and he was maybe going to direct the pilot, I was like, listen, once a decision has been made, I just need you to stop arguing after the decision is already made. Stop arguing.

And he basically is like, here's why I'm not gonna do that. And I just had to realize if we were to do it, I just have to accept Kevin's never gonna, he still now calls me up and tells me why I was wrong in season two about blah, blah, blah. It's like the newly weekend. He thinks I'm stubborn. I'll get rid of him.

It's like that. So the experience of the pilot when you think back all those years ago, what was that like? Like getting to the end of the pilot, we're done, we've just shot, what was it, three weeks in New York? I think it was almost three weeks. What are you feeling? It was pretty much, once we were shooting, it was all fun and we were realizing what kind of great decisions we had made.

We were like, I mean, we got Christopher to do the costumes and I had a very specific thing that I wanted to happen costume was. Can you speak to that? Christopher Peters. We remember Christopher and the costumes in the pilot are amazing, but what did you see? Because there's so many aesthetic choices that we think were yours.

Well, maybe it's not apparent, but I used to be a little bit of a fashion person. As I said to my son yesterday, victim, tragically fashionable. In regards to what Harvey was going to look like, what you were going to look like, and the differences between the two and what your character would wear. So the whole aesthetic of the show, and we also wanted this classical thing,

which I think was more of a subconscious kind of artistic thing, or I wanted it to be classic and kind of timeless. I talked about Front Page, I talked about Howard Hawks, I talked about the Snappy Dialogue and also that kind of white shoe law firm is kind of immutable. Like that aesthetic, people kind of look the same now as they did 40 years ago. So that was something we wanted to lean into. Now I've gone off topic. No, okay, so just to help you get back on, you were saying when you finished the pilot

and you looked back at it, you saw a few things that you- Aaron was just looking at the image of the moment after we were introduced to Gina and Harvey, when they confront the gentleman that's standing in that shot you were just looking at. In the office? Yeah, in the office.

That first confrontation. Your balls. Late night in the office. He says pansy. Gerald Tate. Gerald Tate, yeah, your balls are in my fist. But that, like, I think, I don't know, that was a moment, I don't know when that was

in the process of shooting, but when we shot that scene, I think Deno and I looked at each other and maybe you as well and we're like. Jim Deno is the DP of the pilot. We're like, this is like elevated. Like we're doing something here and we made the right decisions. That guy was good to be like a guest actor.

Oh my God, so good. Yeah, he set the tone and we were so privileged to get all these great New York actors who were like had ballast and So that was one of the scenes and they just kept happening I called Aaron over the weekend and I was the scene where you are brought into Louis let's to see the firing of oh, yeah, we love that. That's one of my favorite

Sitting at that table. I'll put that up against anything, any scene I've ever shot. I know you had orientation from Rachel, but I wanted to give you a special welcome from me. You wanted to see me? Yes. Gary, please come in. Mike, this is Gary Lipsky. Gary's one of our most promising associates from last year. Hi. Gary, Ms. Pearson wanted me to ask, have you completed the Petrenko filing? I'll get right on it. Don't bother. You're fired. What? You can't fire me.

Oh, yes, I can. And I just did. Go pack up your things. Wait, did I discuss where that came from in the script? No. What? I had a roommate freshman year of college, and he pledged a fraternity. I did not. I thought that was crazy. Why would you do that?

Bunch of people are gonna torture you for a year so that you can be in their club. Seems silly to me. But anyway, first night of his pledging, he comes back. I was like, how was it? He says they made them all drink a certain amount of shots, right? And this one kid refused to do either the third shot or the first shot. I don't know which shot. And they were like, you'll do it or you're out.

And the kid was like, I'm not doing it. And they kicked him out. And my roommate was like, wow, I have to do what they say. And then a year later, I ran into him and I asked him how it's going. He goes, you know, we had Mark Silverberg come in and pretend to be that guy that doesn't do the shot. It was a year later, I realized they had. It's always a pretend guy.

It was a setup. They do it every year. So I was like, this is so cool. And that's where that scene came from. Yeah. So there were so many instances, you know, Louis lit confronting that same gentleman outside the. You mean confronting Gerald Tate? Yeah. But you know, that scene was cut, but then I think they put it back in for Netflix.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, right. OK. It's still beautiful. Yeah. So that's and also like nailing New York, Back in for Netflix. Yeah. Oh, right, okay. Yeah, so. It's still beautiful. Beautiful shots. And also like nailing New York, the stuff we shot. I couldn't tell which one of the scenes where I left half the scene on the floor, but that wasn't that season, was it? Was it that season where we lost the last page of the sides?

Oh, that was no, that was season two. Wait, really? We shot a scene without the last page? No, without the middle page. It was like a half page and then a huge middle page and a second half page. And I was like, you didn't notice? And no one noticed.

I wasn't there. This is during the season though. This is not the pilot. That was during the season. I think that was season two. But you know what a shot, now that you're talking about the pilot, when Mike. The bike.

The bike is beautiful. But yes, yes. We always talk about that. But when Mike the pilot when the bike is beautiful, but yes. Yes, we always talk about that But when Mike is walking on the street after oh, yeah with slow mo after she walks away after she walks away Oh, right with all the people in the foreground. Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, that's Sakamoto music in for the piano that we Beautiful reference so music like how did that inform the pilot for you? Because I feel like a lot of times when you talk to me

about what you were creating, you did talk about visual references in fashion. You did talk a lot about music and jazz. And we talked a bit about like 1940s femme fatales and like, you know, His Girl Friday, that kind of vibe, all of those things mixing together. But one of the things that we've really enjoyed talking about is the music that's composed, but also the needle drops, which are insane.

And that's, that's Jean. I'd say that that's Jean Klein. I mean, the, you know, uh, uh, conflict is hot. So this will be the place where I'll say like, I still am not as, it's not, I get the music as it's going through the piece and it makes sense to me and now I'm like, oh okay, it totally works. You're talking about needle drops or score. I'm talking about needle drops. Which needle drops? Anything with heavy guitar in it, like with heavy high up in here registered guitar with me was not really but it really started an energy that cut followed through the whole show and now kind of makes sense to me but I was very

adverse to that. I will say look ultimately I had to approve of any musical choice the choices came from but some of them came from Robert Ives and the editor. I never know how the music gets in, but I know what I'm gonna do and what I'm not gonna do. What works and what doesn't. But I do remember during the bike ride, we had a piece of music that I loved

and Alex Sepul wanted us to change that piece of music. And I was so torn because I loved it so much, but I was like, Alex is the reason the show exists, it's the reason the show's gonna be on the air. So we did end up changing it, and I do love the ultimate piece of music that's in there. Did the original piece of music ever make it into the show? I don't think so, and I don't even remember

what it was at this point. That happened another time where we had a piece of music in there and the people wouldn't let us, the band wouldn't let us use it. And I was like, oh, you know, when you get a piece of music that you love and someone tells you you can't have it, it's just the worst, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then we found Cold War Kids as a replacement, and I'm like, oh my God, I might actually like this better.

And then we used a lot of Cold War kids over the course of the month. Can you talk a bit about Greenback Boogie? How that came to be? Yeah, so it really came very easily. It was kind of magical and it was like, I'm here and I'm not going anywhere. I knew Alex Ebert since he- Can I just say, what does that mean?

I don't know, but I love it. You can feel what it means. I just like, let listener just know New Alex Ebert since he just say what is that? Listener just know that what just happened You find like the moment with him you say something like that you're like I don't get it I feel the rest of you are asking for words and answers and I'm just surfing on a wind. Yeah James Bond surfing. If I could just grunt and groan and make guttural noises the rest of this interview, I'd be good. Mm, so good.

I'm sorry, you were saying, where'd you hear? Yeah, it wasn't going anywhere that time. So the history of it is that we were looking for a track. I think Harrison was, my son was starting at Oakwood. Temi Anderson was part of the band I'm a Robot. And I knew Alex Ebert, who is a graduate from Oakwood as well. I've known him since he was probably seven or eight years old. You went to Oakwood?

No. Oh. You went to Oakwood? No, he was best friends with my nephew, Aaron Bray. They were in a rap group together when they were young in the 90s, and Alex went on to become Alex Ebert. So I told my nephew, I was looking for a track because he's a musician as well, and he said, you should probably talk to these guys. And I knew I liked I'm a Robot. I'm a Robot seemed appropriate for the ambience of the show. And I said, Erin, can you check me in with those guys?

So I think I got on with Timmy. I don't know if I got on with Alex. Maybe I did. And I described the show. And he sent me the next day, Greenback Bogey. No way. And we dropped it in. That was after the-

You didn't even have opening credits yet. No, so that was second season. Yeah, so- No, no, no, it was first season. But you had pilot in first. Yeah, so it wasn't a Robert thing. So I don't know how, I guess I just gave it to you guys. No, they were looking for a song for the opening credits.

And I do remember that it was not my first choice and it was another time when we didn't start the fire by Billy Joel no the Downeaster Alexa I do not remember the song that was my first choice was a little heavier than the greenback boogie it wasn't as fun and again it was a network decision and thank God they made it. I give them full credit because I love that song. I've told you guys, I'm still in the middle of my Suits Rewatch with my daughter, we're up to 8.15

and we still sing the song every single time we watch it, we sing it together. I still don't know 80% of the words and I just hum it, but I love it, I love it. Is it the theme song of Suits LA? They used it in the trailer on Saturday Night Live. The current plan is to have it be the theme song of Suits LA. You heard it here first, folks.

I texted both those guys I mentioned earlier, the guys from I'm A Robot, and I said, you can send me a thank you. Yeah. They had a good Christmas, I guess. But also about that song is about points of view. And I think that it was Mike Ross's point of view, that song, the fucking suits, even the title of the show,

like, these gross, I'm working, I live in Brooklyn, but I have to go to the Manhattan and deal with these non-people, you know. Interesting. So early on, I think that was something, I think that works in the title of the show. I think that was an interesting kind of... What Kevin just said,

combined with what you guys were saying about how this is how Kevin talks and this is how he thinks. Kevin never would really read the scripts and give me notes necessarily. He would say things he liked and didn't like, but he would say things that would be incredibly effective as notes, even though he wasn't necessarily

giving them as a note. So for example, in the first season, I think it was episode nine, when they find out the accountant is a fraud and, you know, when the accountant says to Mike Ross, he says, they can never take my brain away from me. You know, and he's watching another fraud be outed as a fraud.

And Kevin said to me after reading the script, he goes, what's that guy's train ride home gonna be like? Meaning what's Mike Ross's train ride home gonna be like after that guy says that to him. And that bore a hole in my brain and it came out as Mike going to ask Harvey, why did you hire me? And that was when Harvey says, you know,

life's like this, I like this. So that whole scene was born out of Kevin just kind of musing about his reading of the script. So you hadn't even written, did you have a different scene in place there? No, there's no scene. You hadn't done it yet. You hadn't done it.

And that inspired me to write that scene because I was like, yes, what's the consequence to Mike Ross of hearing someone say, I've lost everything, but I still have my brain. It bore a hole in Mike's head and it makes him go, why did you? Basically, he's to some degree, he's saying, why did you do this to me? Yeah. And then it also got us to answer why Harvey did do it to him. Because he likes life here.

Yeah. He's a gambler. I think one of the things if when I'm directing or we're doing a scene, putting a scene up, if Aaron's not there, if he's there or not, I think one of the things is, I'm very silly, right? We find funny moments. You, Patrick, did you do the thing where you said goodbye

kind of half-heartedly to the kid who got fired? Like bye. Yeah. Just like a hand wave. Yeah, I think so. So to double down on the polarity of the dialogue, we would have these behaviors, and those were the things where I'm thinking

this was gonna make Aaron crack up a few seasons. You also in the pilot, when you, you know, you kind of smell your own armpit, but that was just like a silly thing that you guys did. But here's what I'll say about some of the silly things. As now we've just watched the whole first season, that's where we're at now in our rewatch, or watch rather. And what I'll notice is about your episodes,

little moments like that feel so honest and true. And many other moments in other people's episodes feel that way too. But something remarkable about your episodes where they feel really organic and not created. And then I'll notice sometimes in other episodes, there's like the trying to recreate, and that's us trying, like we're trying to recreate

the magic of what it was like to be on set with Kevin and find a thing and it happened organically. And you can tell the difference between all of us being simpatico and it just being like, oh, yeah, they're just talking to each other or being silly versus they're trying to do it again. What was that? How did we do that? I don't know how we did that. We became a family, I think, and that's the experience that I like the best.

I mean, I've just finished the franchise show. And once you find a family, you get to those places organic and shorthand and just kind of like, we would laugh so much. And if we're all laughing, then we trust it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're not afraid, right? So that takes the fear out of it.

And then it's really, to speak for the other directors, being a guest director on a show is like being a substitute teacher. You're like, if I can just get in here and not get home and take my jacket off and see spitballs all over the back of my jacket. And I've done a good job. I mean and I haven't I have not rewatched season one that recently but whether they're funny or not there are a lot of organic moments that were not written riddled throughout the all the season certainly first season but all the seasons of suits that to me are what make it special. Just organic things that were not this, I mean, look, a million Louis Dona moments.

Yeah, we wrote them on the page. You go read it. Most of the lines you say were written, but the scene is not what was on the page. It's so elevated. It's incredibly elevated by the humanity that you guys bring to the thing. And that was true of you as actors, often with Kevin, but plenty with everyone, I think. I was reminded of that when I was just watching the finale and the scene where Donna brings the tickets to Lewis. On the desk.

Slides them across the desk. And then he's like trying not to have orgasm. It, we, you... Spent forever getting that. Yeah, I remember. Oh, you getting that, I know. It seems like two legs in the air in a weird way. Exactly. There's something so nasty and dirty about that.

I just like, I love that. But we spent forever, and this was like maybe the second time that I was in a scene in season one where I was like, oh, we're really exploring and taking our time with it. And it was that scene because you had Louis and Donna just play. Like, we improvised the sliding it across

and he grabbing the hand and then the like shh shh shh. And he was like, mm, mm, mm. And I was like, let go, let go. Yeah, I totally get it. I got it. And we just, you let the cameras run. And you're like, no go, let go. Yeah, I totally get it. I got it. And we just, you let the cameras run and you're like, no, keep going. Keep going.

Like see how far you can take this. I don't know how much of it was in the edit. A lot of it got it. Yeah. But like we went berserk, like as crazy as we possibly could with that permission so that you could dial it back in the edit to whatever it was.

But I will never forget that moment in my career of being given permission to explore and to do it with Rick. I mean, and then even down to the moment where I had to like wipe his hand because wipe my hand on my dress because I was like, ew, what is on here? Right?

That's essentially, look, and that is Kevin Brin, and that's what I'm talking about. Like that scene, I'm talking about. Like that scene, I think, as written was great. But as performed and edited was a jillion times better. And it's those type of things that to me, what makes suits special. We wouldn't have known to go there, though, if you hadn't been shouting from Video Village like, nope, keep going.

Do it again. Slide the thing. No, wipe your hand off. Like whatever it is, like maybe not exactly. Is it scarier to do that and to give that kind of permission to actors if you are a guest on another show? Yeah. Is it because you don't know how far to push people, how much room to give them, if the creators behind you

and thinking what are we wasting our time on? Just, it's like being a new guy in the Conclave environment. Gonna come in and tell people, that's another weird Kevin one, but I just, I wanna tell these priests what to do, who've been living in the Vatican for 50 years. That's a good, I think that's a good lesson

for both, for actors, for showrunners and for guest directors, right? For showrunners, it's a lesson of let your people within limits, right? Because it does take up time and you can't spend 15 hours on every scene, but you can get it as written. Like my philosophy was always get it as written well and then have some fun because that's where the magic comes from. So that's a good reminder to me as a show runner to allow people to have magic. For actors I think sometimes if a guest

director comes in and wants to push you out of your comfort zone I would guess sometimes actors don't love that. We're afraid to push sometimes if we don't know the person but if it's Kevin we're just like what yeah I will do it but somebody knew it is hard to build that. But even if it is someone new, so think about it. If you... There has to be trust somewhere, right? You have to have someone that you trust.

So if you don't trust someone, then you're not going to be able to be pushed out of your comfort zone. But if you either have trust in the director or you have trust in the showrunner, that they're not going to use something that is terrible, then if you do a take that stinks, so what? It's never going to get seen. Like I think the lack of fear to do something that's terrible has to be there

for you to do something that's great. You can't do something that's great if you're afraid of not being bad, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But Kevin, since you were sort of in charge as the producing director of season one, you were the guy with the boots on the ground for all the guest directors. Like how did you guide them? Kevin directed the pilot and when we are direct on the pilot you guys are there. We're a team, we are that family you're talking about. We are on set. Aaron you're there watching every shot, you're able to weigh in. That's what built the family is like we can all learn the same language and there's no one who's not on set that's calling the shots other than maybe some executives that might have notes or something. But it was really us down on the front lines.

Then when we get to Toronto to start shooting the series, Kevin is the producing director, meaning he's there to oversee all directors, as Sarah just said, but Aaron's not there. You are having to run the writers' room in LA. The diaries. I was there for the first two or three weeks. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you're writing the season, you're editing the things that are coming out. I was there for the first two or three weeks.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you're writing the season, you're editing the things that are coming out, you're busy. Yes. And so Kevin, you're in sort of a position I've never fully understood of how people do it, which is you're directing many episodes, so you're getting the up and bad again,

but you're also in charge of sort of running the production to a certain extent in terms of making sure that Aaron's creative vision is happening episode to episode, making sure that directors have the tools they need to continue telling the story, but you're not the guy in the director's chair. Right, that's what I was supposed to have been doing. I was gonna say.

I had to get in front of that. I mean, I had to. So what were you doing? It was my first time doing that job and I think the word director was in all caps and then producing was. Tiny. Yeah, tiny like, but because I didn't know the job or what it entailed and I thought I had a lot more creative agency than I did.

Years later, I took the producing director seminar at the DGA, which I learned some of the- Maybe you should have done that first. That almost worked. But I learned some things I wish I had known back then, which is, and I think I called Aaron years later and I was like, yeah, I'm Lee Marvin, you know, the general tells me we got to make this happen.

I can say you're going to kill all our guys and I can say it until I'm blue in the face. But at the end of the day, if he tells me, which was what we talked about earlier, if he tells me we're going in, then I've got to go and die. Would you have preferred to be directing every episode? Like what's the better version of the scenario? Was it difficult? I'm sure it's difficult for many reasons, but is it difficult because you're not in the chair

that you want to be? Not at all, no. Because you have to tell other people what to do kind of, and that's super awkward. It's awkward and I'm kind of conflict diverse, so that was like, but I find myself walking into propellers quite often. I kind of enjoy it. So maybe that's what I needed to do.

What I liked about that job was I've never been on set with other directors. I've been directing since I was 21, professionally, I think. No, no, no, no, 23. But when you're on set as a director. And just to be clear, you're 87 now. Whoa. Amazing. No, no, no, no. Twenty-three. Twenty-three. But when you're on set as a director, you're-

And just to be clear, you're 87 now. It looks good. You're crushing it. Damn. So, that was an opportunity to see other directors, very seasoned directors work, and watch them. And through the years, I've stolen that, or used that opportunity to steal a lot of tricks from people. So, that was great.

But one of the descriptions of the producing director's job is you draw a circle on the ground for the directors coming in, metaphorically. You give them a box of crayons, you say, you can do whatever you want inside this circle. Right, right, right. Do not go outside of them. And so that was my job.

Which is so counter to who- You are as a director. What we just talked about is you as director are the person like, well, what if we colored over here? What if we colored over here? But I mean, you can improvise inside that frame. But if he were there and see them going outside the circle and liked it, he could expand the circle.

He has the ability to then expand that. But it's also his job to make sure that you in L.A. are delivered the show that you think you're making. 100%. Yeah. But I will say this. You also, there are jokes aside, there are things that Kevin is strong about as a producer and things that he is less strong about.

But what he is strong about was the set design, which occurred during the first season or two, right? Because we added that in Lob lobby reception area in season two. And the style of the show, the fashion, and who we're hiring as DP and production designer, like, he was instrumental in putting in place the people that were in charge of how the show looked. And that was true of the pilot? I mean, I had no...

I didn't tell him who he should have for DP or production designer or wardrobe or any of that stuff. I didn't know. And I just trusted him and it was a great decision. So you did do a great job in terms of that and then in also directing key episodes throughout the season. Right. And we maintain the aesthetic of the show and I think we improved upon it. We did like you watch and you watch through the process of the show, and I think we improved upon it. We did, like, you watch through the process of the first season, the show get more mature, aesthetically and story-wise, I felt like it kind of found

what its tone was by the second half of the first season, to me. I would say 107 is when we really took a big leap. Which one was 107? It was the mock trial episode. Yeah, that's what we thought. That's what we thought. You can tell.

Yeah, I thought that. Just to say a little bit, the producing, directing. So that seminar at the DGA, John Wells was very instrumental. And he said, I guess this applies to everyone. But you have to remember when you're going in for a job interview to interview the people who are interviewing you and be very straightforward, otherwise you'll be fucked when you get in there.

Right. Are they the right people for you? Are you going to be able to give them what they want? So the producing director job that I would like to do is exactly what you said, is much more creative. I'm not going to call actors to make sure they get or places on time or be like a kind of executive line producer. That's not the I have no desire to do that nor do I have the aptitude to do that. I'm is that an expected stronger now I think just but that is expected

of you. I think so. Yeah. Valuable. it kind of depends on what your who your team is and who you have in what position but right it's always a Plus to have that. Yeah, but it's not it's not it's not Kevin's interest and it's not his forte and you just have to Accept that but because he brings other incredible things to the table. I don't think I would do it I would try very aggressively not to not that job. To not be a producing director again. In that form. I would rather be... You told me this. You want to be like brought in to help design the sets and maybe hire the directors that get hired and maybe hire the key people and... He wants to get paid for working half the time. Exactly.

So to we all. You did say, you mentioned being on set that first season and maybe that there were some things that you saw other directors do that you really liked or borrowed in the future. Can you remember any of those moments? Just watching the rehearsal processes of some of them, watching the ones that were actors, I mean, or had more experience with actors.

You know, Felix was really interesting to deal with. We had a little bit of conflict. That was one of the instances. First shot, Jim Dino, was that the first episode he shot? I think it was. There were a lot of interesting shots in Felix's episode, right? Felix, like when you guys are at the hot dog stand

and he's crossed the line the whole time, and then he's first shot. There's a lot of angles. There's a lot of high angle to low angle. Coming in behind the. And we're like, we do not use length angle. We do not, cause I didn't want it to look like white collar. And I said, we're not using giant fish eye lenses.

And he's like, and I was kind of annoyed with him. And I think the first shot he set up, and Jim tried to tell him, you know, we don't want to use lenses wider than a, I don't know, what was it, 32 or whatever. We never wanted, first thing he does is this low wide angle shot of a car where you think it's going to be like hydraulics. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we were like, they got in an argument and go, well, I'll do mine and you do yours to jam to jam and I go, we're all here.

Here we go. Long episode. And by the end, I think he came back again, right? Yeah, he was an interesting book. Yeah, no, he came back. He shoots beautiful episodes. He was very efficient very very efficient That was my memory. I like got the day on to the minute He got the days and also his episodes were beautiful. They were beautiful. He did the first flashback. I think he did

Exactly, but he said something really important to me, which was like, you know, don't have me back Because he was old school. Yeah, like I'm gonna do my thing. You hired me, I'm gonna do my thing. I don't need to come back here and go do somewhere else. He had enough experience and enough jobs under his belt, because he wasn't a problem child. Not at all.

Well, this is what I would say, if anybody's an aspiring director or something like that, you can learn from Felix a lot, to this's alcohol I mean and anyone can because having the confidence to say this is what I want to do this is what I do do and I am confident that I am do a good job which he does and did is great and that's something to learn but what I would say if I were talking to Felix is Felix you can if you had a slightly more humility you could learn because I think his shooting style is genius and brilliant but I do think he could have had he wanted to learn how to be a better director of actors

performances he could have. And to me, this is what I mean about like, sometimes experience can be your enemy because you're so sure you're right. But being open to being wrong, or at least what you were saying, learning from someone else, right? That's how you get better.

And to me, you can get better infinitely. There's an infinite amount of things you can do as a showrunner, as an actor, as a writer that you can learn. And it's just finding that balance of when you're like, no, I'm sure this is the way I want to do it. And sometimes being open to, oh my God, I might be wrong. I might have something to learn here. That's got to be very hard for someone in your position.

And I'll credit you, you've always been somebody who, we would have conversations where you'd want to understand how I would approach things as an actor. Like, how do you think about it? Like, what do you look for when you're looking at a scene? And we would talk about like objectives, which is a big thing with actors, and you were like, huh, I never even thought about that. And we would have great conversations.

We would talk about threading. Yeah. Yeah. And how do you, as somebody who had to juggle so much, you know, your job is crazy. You're editing, you're writing, you're doing all of the things at once. You're doing it again now because you can't help yourself. How do you create enough space to be willing to learn,

especially from someone like Kevin at the time, you're far away, you're in LA, Kevin's up there, he's making sure that your vision is happening. How do you find the balance of like, let me be open to suggestion and your idea and no, like this has got to be the way it is. I have to make a decision. I can't be open to everything all the time. There are different kinds of people.

Some people are probably more inclined to be open. And those people need to work on saying, no, that's it, I'm done. And other people are more inclined to being like, no, I know what I'm doing, and they should work on listening more. I saw this thing recently, Jeff Bezos was talking about people

that are right more often than they're not. And he goes, you can practice being good at that. And one of the things that he said was, people that are right more often than not change their mind a lot. And when he said that, I was like, oh my God, I've always said this my whole life. They always tell me, you always think you're right?

And I'm like, yeah, because when I think I'm wrong, I change my mind. Do you wanna think you're wrong all the time? It didn't make any sense to me. So I see you guys looking at each other. They're in the same place. But I think some people in your job description, you have to be right.

You have to make a decision, right? Well, you have to make a decision and sometimes you have to say, look, I might be wrong, but I got to move on. To me, I am hungry to make the thing better. So if I think changing my mind is gonna make the thing better, I'm gonna do it. But sometimes, this is the most frustrating thing

about my job, I'll say this right now. All day long, from the second you wake up until the second you go to bed, you are bombarded with people telling you, not just questions, with people trying to tell you, you know it would be better if you didn't do it the way your gut thinks you should do it. That's all you get.

That's from the second you get to the office till the second you go to bed, that's what you're hearing. And sometimes, as you guys know, when I could get, you know, snippy. I never did that. I never did that. Not once. Everybody but Patrick did that. And sometimes you're like,

shut the up and do it my way. At least that's what you're feeling inside. Of course. But if you let that take over, then the show will not be good a even if you were right, you're gonna Stifle the creativity of the people But you're gonna you're gonna harm your own You're gonna be less happy when you get in the edip a if you do that. So it's and this is true of the writers room you know, it's true of

everywhere and So it's, and it's true of the writers room, you know, it's true of everywhere. And yeah, I mean, for me, I just am always questioning, is this the best way? That's the way to do it is if you're always questioning if this is the best way. And then finally, once you're like, this is the best way, then then you shut the discussion down. And that's when Kevin starts complaining right after you've shut the discussion down. Here's a question though about... I got some... I got some... Right here, I'm right. We're gonna talk about that can opener.

I do want to get to that. But I want to talk about resources for a second because what I've noticed now that I'm on another show, decade plus later, there's a difference in the business. Like our resources are different. Yes, you had the budget on Suits, which we've had some questions about, like how you were able to, you know,

having clothes that are special, the getting the cars in that episode, like actually how you spend your money when you're producing a first season of something, because I think there's a more finite amount of money in that first season than maybe in later seasons, but also time, time being the most valuable commodity that you have when you're on set.

Because what I found on Suits, and we've been talking about this extensively even today, which is how much room we made time-wise for exploration, especially when Kevin was there, right? There would be all this time to discover. And we especially needed that in a first season. But nowadays, you know, it's like we've entered, in my experience, my experience,

you got two takes and we're moving on because we've got eight, nine pages to do today and we're not gonna go 30 minutes, 10 minutes, one minute over, but we went over time-wise a lot. The first season, we went over a lot. You know, for a over, but we went over time-wise a lot. The first season we went over a lot. We did, you know, for a while there was, it was more relaxed because it was, seemed like there was this decision that this is worth it. This three-page scene in the second to last, in the penultimate episode of the season, we're going to take an extra hour

on because it deserves it. We're going to spend that time. I don't know how much that time costs and who has to approve it and how that works, but we just had a different vibe on Suits of like sometimes we needed a Kevin Wunner or a Walk and Talk because we had to make up for having spent time differently. And that actually ended up being great because that Walk and Talk

or that Wunner was great. I was gonna say, I think a lot of those are born out of the necessity to make it work within the timeframe. Yeah. But did you have more time or were you able to just get more money? Like how did you do it?

This is what I would say. I mean, I'll go back to season one, we had a producer, Steve Wakefield, who was actually, Kevin was not an expert on the budget and time and that type of thing. So Steve Wakefield What is seven plus four Speaking of Lee Marvin But Steve Wakefield would call me and say if

You want to make this episode on budget, under budget, and he would give me a list of things that I could do. You can combine these two locations, you can do this, you can cut this, he would give me a menu. And he would allow me to decide what it was that would make the show work. And he knew that to me, it's much more important that I have room in the budget to go an hour over in a given day because we the performance is everything if you don't

get the performance what does it matter where your location is so I would leave it to him I wasn't worried about the specifics of how to get there but to me you have a pot of money it wasn't that we had more money and also we were only shooting seven day episodes which is very cheap So to go over a little bit on an episode that's only seven days versus to be on budget, that's an extra day or an extra half day, you're still cheaper in the end. So, and we didn't spend as much money on sets that year,

we had much fewer sets. So the totality of the money was less and people weren't making as much money and it was all the things and things weren't as expensive. Tell me about it. was less and people weren't making as much money and you know it was all the things and things weren't as expensive. So, so, but the point being it was important to all of us that the performance was everything and that's something that hasn't changed for me like it's what I'm struggling with this year sometimes I'm like look I don't we were just gonna build a big set for

something in suits LA and I realized it was gonna cost a lot of money. And I didn't care about this set. I don't care about what the set looks like. I mean, obviously I do, but if the performance, if that means we don't have enough money to ever go a minute over, the show is gonna be bad. So you have to pick your spots. You have to, it's all money.

It's all the resource is money. It's not time. You can go over if you have the money.'s all money. It's all the resource is money. It's not time. You can go over if you have the money, but if you don't have the money, you can't go over. So you got to find the money from other places. So that's how I view it. So sometimes do departments borrow from each other? Like, okay, we've got a ton of background

in a scene that is black tie. We're gonna need more in the wardrobe department for this than we're gonna need in sets, or we're gonna need in time or whatever. Like, would you sometimes rob Peter to pay Paul to get stuff to work? Yes, I mean, that's not... Because that's the menu.

Yes, I mean, to me, that's, again, I'm not the one that's usually the one saying who should rob who, and departments are never gonna volunteer you money, but that's, again, because I'm now in a first season of another show, I am constantly suggesting, like, look, just because a department has a budget for an episode

doesn't mean they need to spend all that money for that episode because there's going to be another one down the road where they're going to need more. So it's all, to me, a pot of money. I mean, here's another example I remember at the end of season one. They were all, the studio was all upset that they had this like box, they have these boxes they need to check and one of their boxes was how many pages is the script and I was like what does it matter how many pages my scripts are and they're like because it needs to be shorter it just needs to be shorter

to them and because to them a shorter script equals less money. And I was like, but we came in like a million dollars under budget. What does it matter how long? But it was a whole big thing. And they would be like, well, these other shows, their scripts are like five pages shorter than yours. And I'm like, yeah, because they write a one line thing that says they chase through Morocco and it takes three minutes. And our three minutes are spent on people walking and talking.

It's not apples to apples. But we eventually got to an agreement with the studio that they sort of trusted us with. We're going to be responsible with your money. All of these, how long is your script things and how all this, they're just proxies for are you going to come in under budget? Are you wasting our money? Yeah, and it took a while for me to kind of get them to agree to that because they're very regimented and structured and that has not changed, let me say.

But that's the idea is for me in total, you want to be under budget, but it doesn't matter if you're over budget in one area and you can make it up in a different area. Let me just put into that, like you described a certain circumstance shooting on certain shows and feeling constricted and having... There are different cultures everywhere. I think things have changed a lot as we've moved into streaming and other entities who are now in the process of making television that there are kind of an old school. What you described is kind of...

Yeah, but when you're directing your HBO stuff, they get like 15 days to shoot, right? But if they don't, like many of their shows are very cheap, but what it's it's They want the creative process of Aaron Korsh to be not impeded and they won't They'll let you do what you're begging for which is give me the money and I'll fit it into the thing Like I'll figure out how to make this Work and there are positives positives and a lot of negatives to that as well. Like there can be a lot of ways, but so the whole landscape

of television, I think has changed quite a bit since we did the pilot for, yeah. To come back to the season as a whole, now we can digest it and we've seen it and it's part of television history now. But when you guys digest it and we've seen it and it's, you know, part of television history now. But when you guys started it, we had no idea, right? You didn't know what the end of the season was going to be when we started shooting the

beginning of it. I know you said you haven't watched it all, but you also have a photographic memory, so I'm sure you remember as much as we do who just watched it. But like what stands out to you as, if anything, as like surprises, I guess I wanna know. Like how, directions that it went in that you might not have expected. I'm curious like when,

and maybe this is more of a question for Aaron, but I think it gets into your head too, cause it became partly your world. But like, did the season end very similarly to how you would imagine it would? Were the characters the kind of people you kind of imagined they would be after we shot the pilot? Or did, through performance or through Kevin's direction, things change at all?

Did you, when you got to the end of this first season, was there anything that sort of surprised you and you wouldn't have imagined being the show? Especially from the characters, like, how you may have shifted the writing and the storyline around what the actor was bringing. Like when you had Rick bringing what he was bringing, did things shift? You know, those sorts of things. Especially by the point you were saying episode seven was like there was before and there was after. I think Gabriel or Harvey turned out to be quite different than I anticipated him being.

You know, like there is like a vulnerability to him that I never anticipated on the page, which had a lot to do with what Gabriel's personality like. He's so different from what Harvey was. You know what I mean? You know, Patrick, there's a funny, I put my, because Patrick and I really had another kind of secret connection, I think. We're gonna get a short hand. Yeah, and I put my name on Patrick's face in the pilot.

Oh, did you really? Because I identified it, and then it happens again later and I had nothing to do with it. In the credits. You never told me that. I didn't know that. And then when my aunt. I'm taking it out.

Called Netflix. Wait, I love that. When my aunt saw the show, she said, that guy really reminds me of you. Wow. Oh, that's neat. In Detroit, Mama Lane, she really, he reminds me of you, like his energy, something. And I was like, yeah, I think we definitely bonded early on

from the, I think I took both of you out in the hall for the chemistry and I was like, I really want this, or maybe I took you separately or something. With Megan, you mean? Yeah, I said, I really want. During the chemistry read? Yeah, I don't remember. You took me out in the hall when I was reading with Megan.

Maybe I was like, if there's any way you could... Maybe this would make this work. Yeah. But do we answer the question about... No, I got some answers to the surprising question. I mean, to me, it's less like where we got at the end of the season. To me, you know, the way that season developed

was always a process of discovery, right? I mean, we were discovering what the show was from a writing standpoint in the writers room. It was just a process of discovery. And I don't know that I ever, I certainly couldn't have predicted where it was going to go, but I wouldn't say I was like shocked either, right? I had no notion of where it was going to go and it went where we wanted it to go or where

we discovered it wanted to go. The things that just surprised me would be more, I could go back if I think about it enough and think of just all the tiny little moments of surprise that I loved so much, like the things we're talking about, the little fun things throughout. I mean, certainly the Donna Lewis relationship, right?

Like, it's not like I was like, oh my God, this is shocking to me, but I hadn't envisioned it, right? So there, I remember writing the scene with the tickets. And basically I was writing that finale episode up in Toronto by myself. And all I needed was a scene where basically Donna needs something from Lewis.

That's all I knew. And I was like, you know, let's do the, it was like the second half of the scene when Lewis asked for Donna, you know, it was like. To borrow Donna, my soul hurts now. Exactly, it was like the payoff of that. Now she needs something from him. And, you know, just a thousand little moments

of interesting connection. I mean, look, what I have thought, and now the season's blur for me, but like the Jessica Lewis relationship, you know, in the finale when he's like gonna talk back to her and he's like, yeah, whatever he does. I mean, like, if you cut together, you could probably cut together an hour of Jessica Lewis.

And I don't think when people watch it, it might not be the thing they think of but it's like think about their relationship and the dynamic just their physicality all the things so just there's a million things like that a million Mike and Rachel moments a million Harvey and Mike moments it's just all the moments you know the speed dial 23 and the Stallone imitation yeah and and the Jordan thing. You know, I do, I also remember, you know, for me being surprised, I remember, I think

it might've been 109. You know, when I think, is that the Jimmy episode? I think it is, right? Yeah. And just Jimmy, you know, pooch hole and how strong, oh yeah, Rachel Lewis, when she comes back in and stands up to him, these are things we never could have anticipated. They're not some major story move that's like, oh, man, this is where it ended.

But they're little moments of awesomeness. You know, when Mike sees Jessica in the elevator when he's stoned, right? And then when Harvey figures it out. And, you know, a million, obviously a million, Donna Harvey moments. So to me, it's just the moments that I never would have thought of.

What we talked about, you know, when he asked Harvey why he hired him, right? Like these are things that are just like super cool little moments that happened. It wasn't like some massive thing. It's just all, to me, what makes Sue special is not the plot of Suits. It is that the plot allows us to have These interactions. Yeah when in the watching of it, I felt I would always refer to it. It felt like

Like it falling into gear like you could feel the show You'd be watching an episode you like, okay We're kind of doing suits here and we're kind of doing it and then you'd get to a scene I think like the ones you're talking about, where something just falls in, and you feel the machine like lurch forward, and it has power, and you suddenly figure that, and it's so exciting in the first season

because it's all new. It's all new. It's never happened before. Yeah, yeah. And you can feel it, you can go, that's the show. What's the one, the great scene between you and Lewis and Harvey, that one that we went back and talked about? That Kevin directed, but we put it back in

after we were shooting seven. You wrote it. It was the My Soul Hurts now. It was the My Soul Hurts scene. I mean, something happens in that scene where you're like, we just discovered that we hadn't yet had before. This interaction between you and Louis

and Harvey in the background, allowing him to be silly. Like there was just a perfectly timed, and to learn that you came in and shot that scene was really interesting. Do you remember shooting that scene, Kevin? You don't remember that? No. I remember, I think you called me

and we talked about it on the phone recently, you put in here. Yes, yeah. And I remember that the episode was a little short, so we had to write a scene. So this is what I'm saying. Sometimes the episode's short, so you're gonna write a scene. So this is what I'm saying. Sometimes the episode's short, so you're gonna write a scene. It's not a plot scene, right?

Because your plot's already sort of set. So you just have fun, right? It's just a fun scene. And that's what I mean about the ballet ticket scene. It would be easy to just skip the part where you go and try to, you don't have, we didn't have to have that ballet scene, right? There was nothing about that scene.

It was necessary. It didn't advance the plot. We could have just said Donna But it was great, right? So and you know, here's another moment from One because look I think 107 is when it hit the other gear, but that's not to say there are Infinity moments in in the pilot and in two and one of the ones I remember is it's when, you know, Louis says he cuts a pony from the herd and then you get stoned later in the episode and he's like, did he give you the line about the pony? And I believe you're high in that episode

and you're like, pony, right? And you're laughing and those are like, I love those things, right? Those moments stand out to me because they're just so real. And the way Gabriel was in that scene. He got he got pissed, Harvey got pissed. And you're right, Harvey was gave us more vulnerable than Harvey was on the page.

And I think because he was, that's why suits is successful, right? If he was just a straight up arrogant. Yeah. So but in that scene, he was, he was hard on Mike and it was really like, whoa, this guy is not just your friend, right? And it's just fascinating. Yeah, there are all these moments. There's a moment when he says, do I look like a pimp?

And then he gives that look after it and you're like, this dude is faking the fun. Like he's totally created this whole caricature. In the story, in the reality of his character. He goes home and he puts on one of those bodysuit sleepy things that you sleep in. What is it called? A shruggy or something. Yeah, just like, and he does, like he'd ugg boots.

When he asked, do I look like a pimp, he asked Donna, that's in still, right? That's in it. So I remember, the reason I wrote that was, is because Harvey is this harsh guy. And Donna's... Softened him. Well, Donna softened him.

He shared his vulnerability with Donna. He was not afraid to do that. Donna, the, I don't appreciate limitations being placed on my beauty. Like, those are things that, they're just the special moments of the whole thing. I didn't mention the relationship of Jessica and Harvey, which is, I mean, in the spine of suits,

it's such a pivotal, important relationship. And I even think in that early, I think it was the first episode back, 102, that you directed when Jessica, when he's like, when she says she is the firm, right? And he realizes either way you win, you work, you know, you knew that the whole time. And she's like, am I smart enough to do that?

And their relationship is so good because Harvey is this like, basically he's a superhero, but she is smarter than him and his boss. And yet they also respect each other. And his mentor. And his mentor, all of the above. The person who paid for law school. Yep.

She's his Harvey. She is his Harvey, yes. And even though Cameron Dennis was his Harvey in a different way. And that's why it's interesting when she, you know, gets involved and not Cameron Dennis thing. And Donna helps. Exactly. So but my point being it's all the surprising thing. And this is what you were saying about it being new.

It's all the relationships between all the characters that you get to explore. And even like her relationship, like her triangle of Harvey Lewis and her. Right. Like she's mom and Harvey's a favorite and Lewis is not like that's it. That's the they're Lewis is not. Like that's it. That's the, they're, it never changes, right? And, but she doesn't not love Lewis, but she can never love him enough. And it's just interesting. The mother wound. As you explore, and I know it's later in, it's not first season, but like, you know,

when you and Lewis have the, you know know when you get hit and he's like gently putting the arnica on you It's such a tender thing and you guys I think you talk about Harvey was Superman and and all this stuff that might be a different scene in the fire room, but it's seeing these characters Explore and come together with each other. That's what was surprising to me. How satisfying. My global answer is like, I didn't know it was gonna be that good.

So, I mean, I think it just really was elevated and it was, maybe delusionally so, cause I really thought it was super good and was very defensive about how good I thought it was. The whole show. It's kind of like Eight Is Enough or Family or The Waltons or any of those shows. I mean, this is where he comes from.

No one is going to get any of those references. That's why I said that. Hi, everyone. Thanks for listening. So this conversation with Aaron and Kevin was such a great time and we covered so many essential Suits topics that we really didn't feel like cutting any of it short. So we decided this conversation is going to be a two-parter. So please come back next week where we'll have more time with Kevin and Aaron. We're going to hear both of their theories on the can opener.

We'll discuss Mike's bike helmet and Aaron shares his reaction to the first episode of Suits LA while Kevin is going to tell us a story of casting Megan as Rachel Zane. Thank you all for listening. Thank you again to Kevin, Bray and Erin Korsch. So great to have you in the studio and we'll see you next week. We love our listeners and we love to hear from you so if you have any questions at all please email us at sidebarpodcastsiriusxm.com and if you send us a question as a voice memo we may even play it on the show. And if you can please make sure to leave a review wherever you listen it's a great way to support our show.