Sidebar: A Suits Watch Podcast - Clearing the Docket with Aaron Korsh & Kevin Bray - Pt. 2

Episode Date: February 18, 2025

We are back with part 2 of our conversation about season 1 of "Suits" with creator Aaron Korsh, and producing director Kevin Bray. This week, we discuss how Kevin empowered Sarah and Donna, the challenges of making "Suits," Kevin and Aaron's can-opener theories, the story of casting Rachel Zane, and why Sarah almost wasn't cast as Donna.  Email us a voice memo of your questions about Suits at [e-mail]. We may use it on the show!Follow us on Instagram & TikTok - @suitssidebarGet access to all the podcasts you love, music channels and radio shows with the SiriusXM App! Get 3 months free using this show link: https://siriusxm.com/sidebar

Hi, I'm Patrick Adams. And I'm Sarah Rafferty. And this is Sidebar, a Suits Watch podcast where we watch episodes of the show and discuss. And this week is part two of our conversation with Suits creator Aaron Korsch and producing director Kevin Bray. If you haven't listened to part one yet, pause and go back. It was such a fun conversation hearing stories from creating the show, what really worked for them in the first season

and how they see the characters. And in this episode, we go even deeper with our theories on the can opener. We hear some great casting stories and more behind the scenes details. So please enjoy our conversation with Aaron and Kevin. When I'm watching the show, I'm viewing it from my experience in the world as a woman. Mm-hmm. And what was interesting about Donna, until Malek came in and really kind of tried

to tear her down status-wise and make people assume that she was where she was because she slept with Harvey. Yep. Until then, we didn't really have Donna have any issues around status. And I think, and as I'm watching season one and remembering these moments, like even, there's kind of a one or it was in Felix's episode where she says, you're such a wuss.

Like even the fact that she said that to him, I remember being with you and being like, wait, really? Like she really talks to him like this? We had a scene in the finale that we cut when she walks in, and she says, like, what the hell is wrong with you? We ended up cutting it because it was a little too soon to show that side of their relationship. You were saying we were gonna save it for season two.

But she walks in and she's talking about Cameron Dennis, I think, and she's like, you know, she's just telling him like it is. And I remember needing little nudges to not have there be any status issue between Harvey and Donna. And you, Kevin, helped me a lot with that because I had you there saying like, no, none of that's there.

Like, let that go. And I think that that was important in terms of what you're talking about. For me, just as a person in the world, like she never apologized for who she was. Right. And she knew she belonged apologized for who she was. Right. And she knew she belonged and that she was valued.

She understood that she was indispensable. And that was a new way for me to walk around in the world in that lady's shoes. And that meant a lot to me personally. And I think to some of the women who I've talked to, post-suits who connected to that, it meant a lot to them. Well, to me, it's like, I think the characters in suits, when I work with you guys and I work with Kevin,

I don't think I'm the boss and you're the employee, right? It never occurs to me until you really piss me off. Yeah, yeah, that's fair. Again, something I've never done. We run out of time. Never happened. But honestly, I think like, look, I am in charge. I have to, not even in charge, I wouldn't even say.

I have to, someone has to make the final decision because otherwise there is no one making the final decision. But that's different than thinking I'm the boss and da-da-da-da-da. We are all human beings. I don't really walk around ever thinking someone is beneath me in any way in life. And I hate that people do that. And Donna says that to to Jessica in the finale. She says Cameron Dennis always treated the people below him terribly,

meaning maybe Donna. And I've always respected that in you, Jessica. Yes. And I had a friend years ago that pointed out this way before Suits, and I wasn't even successful. I was struggling writer's assistant. But he said something to me because whatever he was like you just treat people like people you don't Worry about what the status is and I'm like, I don't just treat them like people. We're all people That is actually what we are and I think that's how it is that Jessica and Harvey can have that relationship and and Whatever and we can all have and Harvey and Donna, he doesn't think of Donna as beneath him.

He thinks of Donna as a human. 98% of the time, they're dealing with each other as human beings, and they're not thinking about what's your age, what's your status, what's your position, what's your gender, what's your color. But once in a while, they actually acknowledge that stuff because that's what real human beings do. So that's the balance is to not make those things being the defining characteristic of suits, but not to completely ignore them. I'm thinking of the Black Don't Crack comment in 201 and some of some other things. Like sometimes we acknowledge our differences in a humorous way because they do exist. Well, it's what Gina said to us when we were talking to her

earlier this season when she said about writing. It's like, write for a white man in power, and I'll do the rest. Yeah. You know? Well, she does. She was, yeah. Yeah.

So, you know, that's, and I had a conversation with you in 2016 where you're like, I'm not writing, purposely writing like these messages into, that's not what I'm focused on. I'm not making some statement. And then I said to you, but sometimes a statement is received. And that's what's particularly interesting. Yeah, I think you're making a mistake if you're trying to make a statement. You're not preaching with us. No. particularly interesting. Yeah, I think you're making the mistake if you're trying to make a statement.

You're not preaching with us. No. I think you just try to tell interesting stories and let the rest, like yeah, like you were saying, if the, you know, I get a lot of feedback from you and fans and whatever about the strong women on suits. Yes. It's not like I ever set down and be like,

I'm gonna create strong women on suits. I just like my characters to be intelligent and confident most of the time. And like you. If you were, but also vulnerable, not funny and handsome. But no, like if you are Aaron, shut up and just look pretty. But if they're so I write them in that way. And then we write a character we don't even, like Anita Gibbs. Anita Gibbs might've been a man.

We wrote the character and then auditioned men and women of different ages, ethnicities, whatever. And we hired the person we thought ultimately was the best. And so Anita became Anita. But the lines were not gonna change if it was a man or woman and that character, though a lot of people obviously hated her, she was certainly strong and intelligent and forceful and powerful.

And confident. And confident. So to me, you write the characters and let the chips fall within me. Well, I'm just curious, we've been to Love Fest for the most part. What was, if anything do you remember was real hard? Any particular specific struggles, moments, even maybe just solving a problem in a scene,

but anything that you remember that was like, that was a tough day. You know, and obviously some you probably don't wanna share and that's fine, but I'm curious. Patrick has brought into this podcast, like he once said, part of his intention is to also talk about what was hard and conflict and what, where the struggles were.

Weird that Patrick was that guy. Well, you wanna start? Go ahead. You can pull up your list. Just different working styles of actors. People had to learn each other's styles, and Patrick is incredibly prepared. I think Gabriel can walk through a scene and not say the words,

but you'll have a pretty good idea of what he's thinking and what he's trying to do. He's got a silent film thing, but the words, because it was quite often very dense and had a lot of what I learned from actors, very hard to learn these words that are talking about, like these legalese words and stuff. So with Gabriel, there was like people having to meet in the middle with his style of acting

and the other style of acting. I remember that created a lot of tension quite often and getting it done. And like you said, getting it done once so that we can move on to have fun. So, but all praise, because if you turn the TV off and you watch Gabriel walk through a scene

when he does his things and looks and turns and all this stuff that he does, you kind of know what went down. Did he win in that scene or did he lose? That's really all we're interested in, right? You know when he lost and you know what went down. Did he win in that scene or did he lose? That's really all we're interested in, right? You know when he lost and you know when he won. Aaron probably hates me saying this, like I don't have to hear.

The words are enjoyable, you know? It is great seasoning, but like it can sometimes work and he was very good at that, as are you, and as are you. But I remember that that created Stress for me like which one of my playing to you. I'm one of my time-wise No, just like getting the work done because we had to really noodle around that a lot to Get get the work done the way it had to have you be happy with the end of the scene as well. So Did that it was always is that what you were trying to do? have you be happy with the end of the scene as well. So did that.

It was always what you were trying to do. Make me happy. Still, to this day, common courtesy. Just common courtesy. Well, look, the hardest thing for me, I had a small child. He was a year and a half. And I'm talking about Kevin Bray. No, my son was about a year and a half. And I'm talking about Kevin Bray. No, my son was about a year and a half. And when you're a new parent, you know, you're getting no sleep.

And I had started the show. I had was so inexperienced as a writer. I was as old as most first time showrunners, but not nearly as experienced as writer because they didn't get start writing until I was 31 or even attempting to write so I was this new showrunner that had never been above the lowest level of writers I didn't know what I was doing and I had a new baby so I was and I was getting no sleep and I felt chained between home and work I felt like I was a prisoner of those two things and it was horrifically difficult for me to balance those things. I never felt like I was doing a good enough job in either one and that's when we get to you know

that people are always trying to fight you and say you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong and you know you had we were going to talk about this a little bit from a writing standpoint, you know, they paired me with someone that was sort of meant to oversee me. And his name is Sean Jablonski and there were pros and cons to that relationship. And you know, and ironically, they paired him to oversee me, but I was actually older than he was. That's what I mean about being older, but less experienced. But Sean had a different vision of the show than I did, completely different vision. Now he brought a lot to the table in terms of really, and a lot of it was in terms of

Harvey's and Lewis character development. He was very, uh, made sure that Harvey didn't just come into a scene with bluster. He always had, he needed to accomplish something in the scene or bring a paper. It was a lot, it was very helpful in the writing of Harvey. And in Lewis, he brought a lot of the balls in your court. He was the one that first sort of introduced the really making Lewis kind of ridiculous as a character

and pushing it in that way. But having said that, he wanted every episode to be, as I would, this is my interpretation of it, to be exploring the world of some outside firm and some guest character. So if the guest character worked at a magazine, you'd spend 80% of the episode exploring the world of a magazine, or exploring the world of a golf course, or whatever it is. I wanted to explore the internal world of our law firm. But in the beginning of the show, he would start here, I would start here, and he would sort of pull me this way.

And we would meet in the middle. But by the end of the year, I would just be like, okay, I know where we're gonna meet, let's just go here, but he would never... This is my view of it. He never would move here, and that was incredibly difficult because it was so hard for me to do what I was doing and I was feeling overwhelmed and

I felt like we had to fight about every episode and that Boy, it almost broke me that first season and I will say, you know, look Patrick could be very Questioning of scenes. Let's say that is such a nice of scenes, let's say. That was such a nice one. In a forceful manner. And I sometimes... More in the first season? Or I felt like I got way worse in the second season.

Maybe, but... More and more confident in my communicating of that. The first season, I felt like I was a bit still... Well, your force of your questioning might have been great, was greater in the second season, but it was nothing in the first season. And it was just more like when people are just coming at you. Good thing I got the script.

You're doing a paper in the bathroom. What I would say is, look, what we were talking about before about when people questioned, should we be doing this or should we be doing that and being open to it? That's one thing. But like the kind of show I you wanted it to be like, I didn't need, I didn't need to question, do I want to be going and having the show be

outside of the law firm? I was 100% sure of that. Yeah. But when it happens from all sides, it's just a lot, especially when you're on your new footing. And I remember you and Kevin, one time you both called me up and you were like... They were trying to question why a scene was working or not working and the threading and the truthfulness of the scene, right? And I had to translate.

I knew when we wrote it that in my gut, it felt good. It felt like it worked. I read the lines out loud, and I can find the emotional truth and through line of the scene for me. Yeah. But that doesn't mean I can readily communicate what it is.

And I remember the two of them called me and it was like, we're about to shoot a scene and they were coming at me and why is this and why is that? And I was like, oh my God, I don't know how to answer this question and I try to answer it as best I can. And then Kevin says to me, it seems to me and Patrick like, like, you're just quick enough to lie to us about what's going on,

you know, in the moment. And I'm like, I'm not lying to you. I'm explaining it to you as I feel it. But so those were just the difficulties of the first season is being when you're a new showrunner, people are really coming to you and they want reassurance that you know what you're doing and that you know how the scene should be. And that we're doing a good job. I mean, when I think of it, it's hard for me to remember that, but I can only fathom, that's like my first real job.

And I'm on set and I'm terrified in every scene that I'm gonna screw this up. And so if I perceive something in the scene that doesn't work, it's really just me saying, of course, I am so scared I'm going to not do this. Well, please, boss, who you're already feeling like I'm not the boss of any of us, I know you are the only boss I have. Tell me how to fix this and make it great, because I don't know how to do it. And that's just one person doing that to you.

I imagine everybody to some degree is doing it to you like, hey, help us make this better, because I can't make this work is doing it to you. Like, hey, help us make this better because I can't make this work as it is or something. But I, and I also think, look, now that we're doing, you know, we're in season one of Suits LA and here's the thing. So you didn't come and say, look, I'm afraid I can't do this well, can you help me?

Yeah, of course. And I didn't come and say, look, what's going on here? Is you're afraid, look, I'm afraid. Yeah, yeah, we're all afraid. Let's be afraid together. That would have been great, right? We were like, you're afraid. Look, I'm afraid. Yeah, we're all afraid. Let's be afraid together. It would have been great, right? We were like, you're wrong! Exactly. So now, though, we're in season one, and I can see...

Look, I'm not perfect at this, but I'm still, like, working progress. But early on in the shooting of the first episode, I think it was after the pilot, one of the actors came to me with an issue. And I, in my my head I was like they're afraid and I knew it and I was gentle and I was like look this is how I think this is gonna go and I think it was incredibly successful and the scene worked great and they really just needed reassurance that they were gonna do good and do a good job and it was gonna come off well. But season one of Suits,

Ed didn't have that knowledge. I didn't have that experience. I was exhausted. I felt like I was being a shitty dad and a shitty husband. And when someone would come at me with the slightest little thing that was a legitimate question, I'd be like, shut the fuck up, I'm busy.

And I'm doing the best I can. So that to me was the real frustrations during the first eight and a half seasons of Suits. But I think by the last four episodes, it was... We had a dial. I wasn't there. I know you were in the last one. Did you get a therapist at a certain point? Oh, yeah.

Or did you up your time? Yeah, I get therapists. Between seasons one and two, I don't remember what, because at one point I had to change because just geographically, my therapist was on the other side of town. But at some point I got a therapist that I love and still love. And ironically, it was a German man, which is funny because lip shits. But, and the writers, certainly in later years, the writers would be like,

when I was getting into this certain mood, they'd be like, have you seen Freedom Inn any time recently? Ha ha ha. I think people knew when your appointment was, I think. Yeah, yeah, well, and it was like. It was like Tuesday at 10 a.m. Yeah, yeah, or whatever.

Make sure to book that meeting with Erin after that. But I did, but I noticed with me personally that there was a shift in how much you would actually make an outgoing call with not a note or anything, just out of like, I'm driving home, I'm gonna call Sarah and tell her how good she is in this scene that I just put together and how I'm thinking of her. Like there was this-

Those were the best. Yeah, like this shift, also your child was older and stuff, but into like nurturing, you know, maybe the family, you had more time with your family, you had time to nurture them, and you had more time to nurture us. Maybe, you know, something came in where like we were successful,

and so there was this shift where there was time for some of those calls, which I just wanna say, I really appreciated it. And that understanding of knowing how vulnerable we felt and how scared we were to be, to suck. And, you know, like we were shooting something and we didn't know how it was going to cut together because sometimes we'd be doing it line by line or whatever.

And then you'd call and say, this scene was really great. And you'd be like, oh my God, it was, no way. I can't believe it. The funny thing is I do remember doing that even from the beginning. Probably. The thing that I would say is this. So those were the struggles, right? And they were significant. And I really had a pit in my stomach the first many years of Suits. I would be afraid I was going to do a shitty job. And it was really a struggle.

However, within those seasons, there were also incredible moments of satisfaction. I mean, incredible moments, both on stage, in the writers' room, and very often in the edit bay. And when I would be in the edit bay, and I would love the work that you guys did, I mean, I loved it. I would be compelled to let you know, I wrote you emails, I remembered texting. I saved them. And I did that.

I knew you guys would appreciate it, but I wasn't doing it for you. I was doing it in the same way when I'm to have a friend I haven't thought about for a while. I'll text Kevin, he'll be like, I miss my buddy, right? Like, I'm just expressing myself. And I loved your work in the edit bay. And I will say this,

I don't know if any of the Suits LA cast is watching this thing, but I just finished editing the first episode after the pilot and I felt that way about so many performances, so many scenes. I was so happy, I was so proud, and I didn't call a goddamn one of them. Yeah.

But I, But you gotta earn that. So you got it. But I meant to, honestly, I just have been so busy. You did it here now, it counts, they're listening. Yeah, this counts. We can just cut that and send it to each one of them. No, but I mean, that's to me, what drives me to work so hard

is that I want to be happy in the edit bay. I don't want to be ashamed of myself. And that's why I do this. And now then and also for 10 or 15 years later, I get to watch it and be so proud and I love it. Great. You did an amazing job. And you did. I'll get out.

So did you. So did you. I want to talk about the can opener scene, which is in the finale, and the walk-in talks and how the constraints of time built for you that spontaneous thinking and movement of the camera that actually became some of the scenes that were like,

that's a famous Kevin Wunner. Yeah. Or that's a walk-in talk and when did that get built into the fabric of the show? And then also, I do know that you prepared, you looked back. And I really would love to know what, like, what struck you when you were looking back

with 15 years difference in time, you know, with all this space and time when you looked back and what you took screen grabs and those kinds of things. So whatever order you wanna approach those three three and we can edit the question. We'll talk about the oners first. Okay. So I think, yeah, I think a lot of the oners, and I think that's something we discussed is trying to get behavior in the frame.

It's funnier with two shots. It's funnier you guys were good. With two people in the shot, like seeing both faces. Well, seeing both faces and seeing the actual scene go down without having to construct it and cut back and forth sometimes can be when the performance is smoking, then that's always the best version of a scene. So can we use the can opener scene, which is in this episode? Yeah, so the can opener, I think that was a rush thing.

If I recall correctly, we had to get that done. But I think we had that idea as a general, like, let's do this. If it works, then blank. But then we'll get coverage as well. But I think once we saw it up and running, I think we made the decision just to move on and not do the coverage.

In fact, I remember many times we would end something, you're not covering this? Nope, we got it. We talked about that. That would be a point of conflict if I remember sometimes of like, you're not covering this? Nope, we got it. We talked about that. And that would be a point of conflict if I remember sometimes of like, you got, or did you always get confirmation to do that first? Yeah, I'd have to do confirmation.

I remember moments where I'd talk to you, Aaron, you'd say, I wish we'd covered a scene. Again, not just about Kevin, like moments that were decided to be oners where you were like, oh, that would have been helpful to be able to cut around that. There's always, look, there's always pros and cons. And by the way, a wonder is when you do a shot

in one shot with two people, you don't cut it at all. It's just one shot of a camera. It's just for people to know. And there, it has a natural feel to it. And if the performances are perfect, but sometimes you can't see the expression on someone's face because you can't be on both person's persons faces and sometimes,

whatever. But sometimes you always wish you had coverage because you never have to use the coverage. You can always just use the oner and if you have the coverage, it gives you an option. And also if you have one point in the middle that you can cut to, you can cut together 50 different takes of the oner. Right. If you have no break point, together 50 different takes of the one-er. If you have no break point, then you have to pick just one. But oftentimes it's awesome.

I mean, yeah, like I would, it's funny in the pilot, you called me about, I don't know, a year ago or six months ago, you'd watched a pilot on a plane. And you said, why does Gabriel sort of flub his line at the end of like, he goes, why did you scratch off the partner off my door? Right. And he used it both.

I'm like, yeah, because you insisted on doing that in the winter and Gabriel didn't get his lines right in any of the given wonders. So we had to use that one. But looking back on it, I wouldn't change it. I love it. It's part of the charm of Harvey. It's part of the charm of that scene, yeah. But so some of it came out of necessity of time, but we, I'm but the can opener scene,

that was Gabriel approached you, you were in the cubicle. I was filing, I was standing up, he sat in my seat. He sat down behind you, yeah, so you're in the foreground. And we're listening to him talking while watching your expression change and we're watching him kind of grovel.

And it just was a really, and I remember when we shot it, I thought it was awesome, like the way it played out and then it just had three acts, right? Like so he came, he groveled, and then you guys went off. Well, they stood up and changed positions to get into the mode of whatever they're about to do.

And that whole thing was a wonder? Yeah. Yeah. But what I love about that, which I just rewatched it. So it was the first time I'd actually, we've talked about, everyone wants to know about the can opener all the time.

Obviously you love it. You get that question no matter where you go. But what I loved is I'd forgotten that there's a three, two, one before it. And so that really free to contextualize the can opener for me. I was like, wait, what were they literally going to do that they had to count down for?

And the can opener was not present for it. It just opened up a whole Pandora's box. We need the can opener. We better go get it. So we've got to do a three, two, one first though. No, no, you leave. I don't think that three, two, one was scripted. I think you guys just made that up.

I'm pretty sure. You don't leave to go get the can opener. You go leave to go be a private. I say I'll get the can opener. Yeah, well, I was like, yeah, we need privacy, but we also need the can opener. I think that's where I was like, but it's not here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Which, but it's a great now, because now you're watching it's even more complicated. It's more complicated. It's not like they just do a weird thing with a can opener, it's timed. It's like an immediate thing. That also must be private. But they could have done it in public and they decide to do it.

Because they're going to be such dorks. But it was also like, we don't have time. Like you have to grovel harder. We got to go. He needs the thing. Like he needs to do this. Whatever is happening. He needs it now. I know we've told this story. We told it on the phone and the thing, but at the ATX festival.

But Kevin calls me after we wrote that episode and he reads it. He's like, you got to explain what the can opener was. I'm like, what are you talking about? He's like, you have to the audience is going to want to know. I'm like, this is one where I didn't I was not for it. No, I don't. And he goes, well, they're going to be dissatisfied. I'm like, they want to know. They don't really want to know they want to want to know. And I was positive I was correct on that one, and I think I said part of the reason we're still talking about the can opener is that we never answered it. And in fact, Kevin was insisting that we tell, and I was so, like, sure that I didn't want to do that, that I think it was the next season.

We, Rick Moraghi and I wrote in a whole nother added, like, I'll get the thumbtacks, and there was another reference to the can opener Rick Meragi and I wrote in a whole nother added, like, I'll get the thumbtacks. And like, there was another reference to the can opener that we were still gonna not explain what it was, so. But you sort of explained it in a flashback, when he grabs it off the waiters, the waitresses. Yeah, but we explained where it came from.

Yeah, the origin story. I think my issue was semantics or something about, it was something about logic. I think that's think my issue was semantics or something about, it was something about logic. I think that's what my issue was in that moment, in that scene. I don't know if I was so aggressively into the explanation of it.

No, no, no, no, no. This is long before you shot that scene. You called me. You wanted me to write with the explanation. See, you are just like everybody. You check our inbox of Sidebar Podcasts because it is 95% people wanting to know, or as you would say, maybe they just want to want to know,

but you're just like the rest of us, which is like, you wanna know. I, Kevin, I, Patrick want to know, but I'm now realizing I don't actually need to know. No, I'm saying something different. I'm saying that what you just said, which was the scene went one, two, three, I'll get the can opener, but the can opener wasn't there in that moment.

It was in Harvey's office. Whatever they were about to do. They couldn't do unless they were in that other space. Which I just realized. We were about to do something that was like maybe not out here, like not here in this common area, like around the corner. That was just the way I was playing it. Like, I don't want anybody to see us.

Right, right, right. Sort of thing. But that was a separate scene from when, the one when he like kind of gives you the can opener. That was the coming out later episode. That's the still I. That's one of the stills. No, that's at the end of, isn't that at the end of this?

It is. It's after. The handoff is the- So what is happening is really interesting because you recently- So we can't believe- See, we're doing this because I got an answer. That's why we're having this conversation right now. Yes, but personally-

Still keeps him up at night. I get that, but I just was, yeah, I remember being there. Going like, okay. And it was so fast though, you're right. We did two or three of them and then you moved on. And then there's great, like Patrick and Gabriel walking towards us and then you would throw a spit-a-line as you were leaving the frame. I can't remember which one that is. line as you were leaving the frame. I can't remember which one that is. And the kind of providence or happy accident of the set we chose, the building we chose, and then how

great it was for the walk and talks because it seemed like it went on forever and you never felt bored with the space. Maybe it was the curvature and the lights, different things, the background, the blocking. But those wonders just seemed to work and become, there's a great one where Louis comes up to Gina right outside her office and they confront each other. Early on. As actors, they were so important,

and I think for the reason you said, which is like you're both performing in the same shot. It's that simple. And so for Gabriel and I specifically, we had so many scenes together, and you'd always have this like, okay, I'm on, and now you're on. And so that means when you're on,

I'm still doing my thing, but I can relax. And so one person in the scene is like, relax, I'm off camera. I'm delivering the lines to you, and I'm not. And when you put both of us on there, it was like, we are doing this scene as a play. We are doing the scene together. There is no you're off and I'm on.

And that would create a really important, I don't know, just wake up. And it would always seem to happen at a moment in the episode where it needed to be woken up. Like we need to move, we need to move this energy allowing you to keep the ball in the air. And it was always the most rewarding for me because it felt like we, no one's taking a break here. move this energy, let me keep the ball in the air. And it was always the most rewarding for me

because it felt like we, no one's taking a break here. We're both on and we both have to be on at the same time. We both have to like be talking to each other. And if you or I dropped the ball, then we have to go back to the beginning and do it again. Like there's, and that's okay. Or you use it. Yeah, yes, yes.

Or you respond. I mean, it's just the whole reasoning behind the coverage in most cases, unless you're at a really pivotal point, Or you use it. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Or you respond. I mean, it's just the whole reasoning behind the coverage in most cases, unless you're at a really pivotal point, the reasoning behind it in television is that the, you know, probably from live coverage of television back in the day or the TVs were too small and you needed to get close-ups on people's, because you couldn't see what they were doing. So it just was more cinematic. If you can pull it off. And then what we did, which I think is people

walk into their own coverage. So a lot of those would be, which I kind of was watching Woody Allen's brilliant stuff that he does where he'll do a master and it'll turn into, like I'm thinking Hannah and her sisters, there's an amazing scene where it'll turn into like I'm thinking had and our sisters is amazing scene where it'll turn into the one moment of coverage at the end of the scene when it is important to see what the person is saying. Like we would do that. We would design the shots. The other thing I'll say is it's not the same walk and talk and wonder are not different.

Right. A one or means you do the walk and talk in one shot. But Kevin also was instrumental in inserting walk and talks into suits. You would go through the scripts and say, I think this should be a walk and talk. I think that should be a walk and talk. Because they were also economical. I mean, they would also take a scene

that might've taken three hours and make it an hour and 20 to shoot. Not that that was the reason, but it was a helpful. It was a side benefit, but he did it because he wanted the energy, you know, to have the energy of. Yeah, and also the stress of like, looking down the barrel of the day,

because you know, we would quite often accomplish a lot at the end of the day, having to pull one of those off. Yeah. And we had the luxury of having Michael Seuss. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Operate the camera. Our A-cam operator who was also, did it basically, pull one of those off. Yeah. And we had the luxury of having Michael Seuss. Yeah. Our 8-cam operator who also did a basic, I think every Steadicam shot in suit. I think he did every single episode.

And he was very- Seuss. Forthcoming. Dr. Seuss. He was very what? He contributed a lot. When he had an idea and he knew how it had to be, and someone was telling him to do it differently,

it was the best because he was just like, no, you could see it. He'd be like, that's not right. Who knows the show better than the guy who's run ACAM the entire show. So you could tell when a new director or even like a deep, it would just say, try this. You'd be like, that's not right. That's not, the camera should be here.

It should be over your shoulder. It should be on that. He just spoke suits. He understood it. He finished the shot and he'd throw it off and he'd're like, that's not right. That's not the camera should be here. It should be over your shoulder. It should be on that. Like he just spoke suits. Like he understood that he finished the shot and he throw it off and he go like, yeah, shake his head. He'd hand it off and he'd shake his head. You like, we didn't get it. You knew you didn't get it. You go, yeah, yeah, yeah.

We need one more. Um, so the next I'll just do these stills. I'll try to get them as quickly. Okay. So this is a photo of in the pilot. We've got Gerald Tate on the left-hand side of the screen. And then we've got the reflection of him facing Harvey. Harvey's not actually in the shot,

but he is in the reflection. So he's sort of small in the back on the right, facing off. We talked about this already, just that this was to me a big moment. We were using this glass. This is a practical location, which was amazing. Practical location means it was really an office in a real building, not a set.

Shooting in New York, and this is where we were like, okay, we've got something going on. For me, the most two iconic scenes from the pilot, obviously the biggest one is when Harvey, the interview scene when Harvey hires Mike. But I think what the your balls are in my fist. This scene is what is the first that sets up the second, in my opinion. Right.

And it has the tone like, oh, okay, so this thing is got that kind of gravitas, but at the same time, sings at the end with the humor and who Harvey is and their little cute. Because he says the fire drill is going to come up and you get to be captain, blue team captain. My question about this shot though, you said we're on a practical set, so we're in an actual space that is a real office. Did you know that you were going to use reflections? Yeah, yeah, we definitely knew we were going to use it. But the thing that, that everyone's always apprehensive about, oh, you can't do this because it's going to

be lights and everywhere and we'll see them in the reflection, which, you know, Jim instead took the challenge and said, I'll make it work. Jim to no DP. Yeah. And then, uh, we moved forward to the LSAT test, Mike Ross is taking a LSAT for another person and he almost gets caught. This would be, by the way, this scene is more like if your balls are in my fist is the introduction to Harvey, this is the introduction to Mike. It's basically our two superheroes showing their superpowers and then they're going to meet in that interview. Right.

So this was speaking of moments of fear, this whole sequence with the switching the hat and the- In the LSAT. In the test for the LSATs, yeah. I remember there being like an ambiguity, yeah, to this sequence, we're very, very nervous about shooting this scene. I don't know, do you remember that?

Or did we probably- I don't remember that as the actor. I... Yeah, we didn't really... No, it was you. You kept coming to me and saying, I don't know why... And I was like, well, let's sit down and rewrite the scene. Yeah, you were expressing your problem. I don't know how to shoot it.

And I was like, well, then let's... This is when we were getting to know each other in the pilot. All during prep, he said, this scene's a problem. And I'm like, well, then let's rewrite it together. Let's sit down and figure it out. And then you would never make time to figure it out. And then it's like the night before, I'm like, god damn it, I've been saying we should rewrite this thing.

And then we figured it. But what do you mean by the ambiguity? What was your being a point of view issue? Or what was you couldn't, what were you talking about? How do you mean the hat was not in the original thing? Kevin was somehow not convinced that the entirety of the thing would work Yeah, and and we added in you know Mike I don't know if it was originally written in that Mike would flop the the things on the ground

so you're talking about almost the logistics of like Selling the fact that I'm tricking that you and that they wouldn't be able to catch me. Well, thanks for reminding me that I made it work. Thank you. Yeah, it was your brilliance. And what you changed maybe was knocking the paper over on the desk and then a switching of a hat in the bathroom or putting the hat on the other guy.

I believe so. You also had problems with like that the driver's license, that the guy we were hiring happened to look just like him. And you were- You know, like- There were other problems that weren't problems. I'm just gonna say, there were a lot of things that like people can overthink sometimes.

And sometimes it's legit. No, no, no. There's no- And sometimes it's legit what? Sometimes when we think like, is it convenient that Mike happened to look like the guy was taking the test for? Yeah, It is.

But like we could have spent 10 minutes of screen time explaining why it was convenient or no, I think that I didn't do it, but it's like, I think that's great. I think it's awesome. You didn't like it. I like it. No, it's awesome. Yeah.

I'll tell you another pod. This is part two, one of them in serious never worked. So you took this is my name on the screen. I can't believe I didn't put this together. That's great. Kevin Bray's name over my face. Yeah, in his heart. I'm in Patrick's heart for all of time.

Forever. All right. What part of you, what's- So is that enough of an introduction about this or you want more? Okay. Wait, Kevin, so this photo of Mike Ross that has your name in front of it,

what is it, what is at the heart of it that you identified with Mike? And did you know that the minute you read the script? I just, maybe, yeah. Like, yeah, I've always kind of- How do you identify with him? Because you think you're a fraud? It's kind of a metaphor for me

being in the television business. I didn't think that I would ever be in the television business. I mean, I started in music videos. I started in fashion. I started in the art world in New York, in the Lower East Side. So it was an odd set of occurrences that brought me to this chair. And this is a loft in Tribeca, which is kind of aspirational circumstance. Yep. Like, and always having a side hustle. And so I kind of identified with his character quite a bit.

And that I was always feeling kind of, yeah, a little bit of fraud complex being in the corporatization of television, anything in the music business. Like, you know, am I really supposed to be here? And my point of view comes from, and even my process comes from a different world. That's not as kind of- Well, maybe that's another one of our overlap, because I always felt like a fraud

when I was in an investment banker. But I'm gonna say that scene just reminds me like, it might have been one of the first scenes I wrote in this pilot was when one of the first lines I wrote when Trevor says it's the best hamburger I've ever had you're like it's from Monday like that to me is just suits in a nutshell right like you're just basically you're basically saying you just stoned you and just the way real people I would talk to my friends. I love that.

Right, right. Grammy. Rebecca Shawn. So great. I struggle with that scene. I was wondering right in this moment. I love her. Whether I wanted to say it, but why do you hate her?

Why would you hate Rebecca Shawn? I love her. No. She has that weird, she has that line where he goes, that stuff line. What is it? You're on that stuff or you gotta stay away from that stuff. But it's, it comes out of nowhere to me when I'm watching it. Like it's just too fast. I want to be, and I think we add this constantly with Grammy scenes. I was like, I want more. Like if we're gonna do it, I want more. I want like a, I want a deeper connection with this person

because she's so important to the character. And so I go back to some old wound in this scene where I'm like, it's just too fast, it's too quick. Yeah, yeah, these were hard ones for me as well. And, but they- That's why it was always you two against me. But now it started with Rebecca Schultz. Blame Rebecca Schultz.

These things, I guess I felt very insecure because I felt like I was supposed to figure this out. I was as a director, I'm supposed to commit this to film these. So this is the sequence where- You're in the Waldorf. Yeah, we're in the Chilton Hotel. Chilton. Mike Ross is supposed to be delivering these drugs to this guy

but there it's a bit of a sting and he realizes because he's so bright and he has a photographic memory that That these guys are police officers and I remember this was the moment where Jim DeNo and I butted heads Do you remember that? No, do you about how to communicate this memory? I said something I said something snarky mean and He it was like this isn't what we planned. He said and are you referring to the memory pieces? Yeah, the memory seeing the gloves or the whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I always know that I was always like how we're gonna do it and again, they kind of go by seamlessly now But back when we're I was like even at how are we going to do it? And again, they kind of go by seamlessly now. But back when we were, I was like.

Even at the, look, I would say, if I'm going to think about the pilot, those flashbacks probably were a little, you wanted to make a big thing out of them. Yeah, I did. Yes, and I didn't, I didn't understand why and I didn't think you needed them at the time.

And now I sort of half agree with the way I felt and half don't. It works. But you, sorry, sorry, just to get clear. You mean, cause I struggle with it a bit too, but I also understand like you have to show it because it's the key to the whole scene. Like you have to understand that he is putting together,

wait a minute, the pool's closed. He's like all the little pieces. If you don't flash to them, how do you know that your brilliant guy with the mind has put all the pieces together or? You have to flash to them probably, but it was a question of did you have to flash to them in a overly stylized way? In that weird black and white way.

Well, I don't know. I think perhaps if you had been in, like the kid walks by, like yes, those things needed to be, I felt more prominent or that you'd be more involved in them. And we just didn't have the real estate to do a scene about the pool being closed or the, you know. Well, it speaks to a bigger thing for the whole season, which is, you know, Mike's memory and how we dealt with it and how much of it was because I know over time it became, well, this isn't a show about some guy and his tricky memory where he can solve crimes because he can remember or solve cases because he has this great memory, right? And it feels like this is the beginning of that discussion. He's taking off.

Kevin's gone. He's leaving. You're going to get on the same mic with me? Kevin has come to the other side of the room. He's sitting with us now. It's so hot in here, oh my God. Somebody turn the heat up. But it was, understandably, it couldn't be the show.

That wasn't the show we were making, but at the same time, we were in a position where the character did have a memory and we were trying to communicate it. Because there's another episode when we're at the inside,, the, uh, inside the trading place where we do this again. Do you remember what I'm talking about when we're, um, Oh God, I'm so terrible.

There's a moment where, where Mike looks down at the computer and sees like the trades happening. It was the only other time we really did this. And you can feel like we're doing it cause we've done it, but it also just is not, you know, we talked about when our show falls into the gear and we're like, that suits. You can feel the opposite.

You're like, this is in our show. Yep, yep, yep, yep. We're trying to make it work and it doesn't work. Well, this is the thing in retrospect, you could have rather than show the thing and show the thing that, you know, the flashback of when he saw the pool and you could just show that Mike is gears are working and we could have added a line when Harvey says, Harvey asked him, had you, why

did you ask the guy what time it is? He's like, because what kind of a drug dealer, you know, is going to ask what time it is. So he could have said, had you know, they were cops. And he could have said, because the pool was closed. And I asked, you know, like, could could have just said I could have just said it Yeah, I'm not even a hundred percent sure if we didn't say it and we didn't do it If you really were smart as a viewer and paying attention you would put it together Yeah, I don't know just to tie the knot on it

there does get to the point where Though and it's interesting to talk about we don't spend too much time on it But that we remember you and I having constant discussions like, is this still a thing or is it not a thing? Seems for a bunch of episodes it went away. And then I remember in this episode with, when Rachel is, where I start dictating the document that I saw very quickly in a dark room and I remembered it,

that to me was like, whoa, whoa, he really does have a, like I forgot what a beautiful mind or an amazing mind he has that he can do this thing. So we have that scene and it reminds us of it. And then it kind of goes away again. And then you and I found this like credit card idea where him and Jenny are in bed together at the end. That was sexy. And he also tells Trevor later, like, I memorized your social security number because I saw

it once when it's there. But it's like you run the risk of becoming gimmicky and we never wanted it to be a gimmick right you do you well my feeling of it was this and and again I do not have a photographic memory but I would say of anybody and I'm old now so I might memory is just not what it was in any way shape or form but I have always had probably the best memory of anyone I know. And it's not like if you were doing a documentary on me and you filmed every day of my life, that wouldn't come up every very often. I'm not solving crimes with it. I'm not doing whatever yet. But all the most of the movie lines in suits are because something, some dialogue this being said makes me remember something so so for Mike I wanted to be it's always

there he always has it it's just not relevant most of the time because he's not just walking through the day announcing the things all the things he remembers so it it comes up organically when necessary sure um and in terms, yes, it would be very gimmicky if every week you were just waiting for Mike's memory to kick in. But having said that, I think you probably would have wanted it to be in more. I think there is definitely a chunk of fan. Yeah, it's hard. Maybe when we were shooting it, but now that I'm watching it, I'm seeing the opposite side,

which is, you know, no. Yeah, no, I think it works. But there's a chunk of fan that would wish it was more. It's it's always like the fans are always like, look, some fans never want Harvey to ever experience any growth and never want him. They want him to be the Harvey of season one for the whole time. Right. I'm not.

I don't want to do that. But that's a point of view. It's a legit point of view. Some people never want us to lose a case ever. Never want us. But but that's a point of view. It's a legit point of view. Some people never want us to lose a case ever. Never want us, but that's not me. And some people always want every week to have Mike's photographic memory be at the fore. But you just have to make your choices.

So this is when Mike accidentally comes into the- Yeah, that's the interview scene. Interviews. So again, a really great scene where I think we were really feeling strong and I Mean, it's just a great the performances are amazing we see the humor that these guys are gonna bring us as As we move forward. I just think it's funny. I was watching a

movie called City Hall last night and Is that where you got the Al Pacino quote you played? Yeah. Michael Ceresen shot that. And it looks a lot like this, like really naturalistic lighting. And I just... This scene was just so strong. And it's strong in every regard.

The dialogue and what happens is phenomenal. And then the blocking was as much moving around and kind of changes that happened. It totally made sense. There's nothing, no false moves or inorganic. Like, I don't think. Nope, not at all. I love the spin too.

I love how we switch seats. I mean, that's written into the scene, but I just think it's such a stroke of brilliance. I wanna talk about Kevin's blocking. Blocking for people that don't know is how the characters move in the scene. So before you shoot a scene, you have to make sure you know

where your characters are gonna move. If they do it differently every time, you can't shoot a consistent scene. So Kevin's blocking often focuses on when the real change in the scene is gonna be. And even if it was written in that you guys switched, blocking often focuses on when the real change in the scene is going to be. And even if it was written in that you guys switched the way he decides when, and we collectively decided when Harvey and Mike switch positions, it's really. Awesome.

I love that. I also love there's an, it's an, uh, a different shot. When Mike says I got knocked into a different life, it's like a little bit of a jarring cut, I remember, and a weird angle. And it's because it's an important line, right? And I love when you, you know, I've been playing hearts, boom. And I love that scene. Yeah, and we did in globally, as we didn't do traditional straight on coverage,

we always did these profiles, We did these two shots. We did looser coverage, at least looking over the stuff. I just think we really tried to make it look a little more cinematic than. Your typical TV show about law. Yeah, this is Mike meeting Rachel for the first time. I love you. Just, I think we all knew that that popped in that moment.

Probably my favorite line to the pilot is I love you. But I'll say this. See that shot where they're standing by the window? Kevin initially, this is the first time, maybe the whole thing where he wanted to shoot that thing against the wall that was on the other side. And we're like, dude, we're on the 50th floor. We are actually on a real floor of a building. Let's shoot out the window. And we're like, dude, we're on the 50th floor.

We are actually on a real floor of a building. Let's shoot out the window. And we had to, Dave Bartis and I had to convince you to do that. I do remember that. Do you remember why? No. Yeah. Oh, I thought you knew.

No, I don't remember. No, no. He is just making s*** up. I don't know why I shot that. Do you remember? Why you have that screenshot? I don't know. Do you know why I have this screenshot?

I don't know why you did something when I wasn't there. That's when Harvey meets his private investigator and she was played by Julie Ann Emory. Yes, Vanessa was the character's name. And Julie Ann Emory, who I, by the way, I thought was terrific and is terrific actress, better call Saul, just countless things, Fargo. I think on record of this, like, look,

I thought she was originally, she was potentially written to be his love interest. And the network made us really cut down that scene because they were worried that people were going to think she was a hooker because of the way the scene was written. Yeah. And I was like, well, for 30 seconds, they might think that, but it's clear that she's not, but at the time, that was one of the things that really irked me

at the time, but we had cut it down. We brought her back once, I think, 109. But we refer to her a couple other times in the series, but she's a terrific actress. Yeah, I think that's because it just kind of continued the kind of quality, this scene, the quality of what we were trying to do. I want to ask you guys a season, because we have about 12 minutes here, and I want to, and feel free if there's other ones

you find there, Kevin, that you wanna wrap up, but I do wanna ask in the timeline of this first season, A, what was it like to have the show premiere and start getting reactions from the world? Fans, the internet was obviously a thing already. Did it affect how you did your job? Either of you guys did your jobs? Were you paying any attention to it?

Did it change the approach? And at what point in the season did we find out that we were going back for a second season? Was it while we were shooting? I don't remember. I think maybe it was towards the end. I'm still waiting. You got the pickup. Um, well, I don Well, I will say this.

It did not affect how I did my job at all. I have never really been concerned with ratings only because, as I say, I am driven by not wanting to be ashamed in the Oedipa, wanting to be proud in the Oedipa. So if we had great ratings, but I thought the show was bad, that would almost be worse for me. Right. The only way it did, it did change a little bit my approach with the studio and the network in between seasons one and two, because I was like,

okay, now we're a star show, and I want to get more resources on behalf of the show. We got the pickup during the filming of the finale. I remember that Mm-hmm. I remember you giving us this the giving us the news on set. Yeah, I have a video of it actually no way I'll find it. Um But I don't know if it pray didn't affect you the ratings didn't affect you No, I so we got to leave set knowing that we were coming back, though,

which is a great gift, because a lot of times you leave a show and you say goodbye to this whole family that you've just made, and you're not sure if I'm gonna see you again. I mean, see you in this context. Basically, and once that happened, I never ended any season with any doubt that we were coming back, even whether they gave us the official word or not. And then, lucky enough, after season seven, any season with any doubt that we were coming back, even whether they gave us the official word or not.

And then lucky enough after season seven, they were like, you're gonna have a 16 episode season eight and a 10 episode season nine. So I had a real knowledge of when we were gonna end the show. I have a question for Patrick. What? Okay. Why did you so aggressively insist on wearing a bicycle helmet?

She's got it written down. Fans of the podcast will know this has come up a fair amount. How much did you hate that conversation? Finally you agreed. Agreed that I should have just worn it the whole time? No, no, in Canada. I didn't want to wear it. I know, I know. None of us, to be fair, none of us wanted you to wear it.

No, we needed you to wear it. They just said you had to. But what's so funny, Desi, there's episodes now where you see me wearing it and then it just disappears. Yeah. Then there's ones where you can tell we just didn't shoot on the street so I wouldn't have to wear it.

It just keeps coming and going and coming and going. It's so crazy. Wait, one of my favorite things. You were right about the dress shoes. I did start seeing wear it. It just keeps coming and going and coming and going. It's so crazy. Wait, one of my favorite things. You were right about the dress shoes. I did start seeing, oh wait, no, you- Yeah, you and I had a whole thing. No, I wanted the dress shoes. You wanted me to be wearing dress shoes on the bike,

and I was like, no, he'd put his dress shoes in his bag and be wearing sneakers. Yeah, you wouldn't have that. I think I went around the city and took pictures of business. Yeah, you did. You can't frame me pictures. I do remember that. But one of the things I love is when,

in the pilot, when Harvey says, don't touch that with the bike. And you're just like, leave it alone. And you just had to do it. I love that. Yeah. The bike, yeah. So, Kevin, earlier I feel like you had more to say about the Rachel and Mike chemistry reads.

Can we circle back to that? Wait, before we do that, I just want to say the entire Mike Ross bike and the entire Mike Ross bag was Kevin Bray and Harvey Stereo. All of that was Kevin Bray and Harvey's stereo. All of that was Kevin Bray. We did not, there was no bike scripted into the thing and Kevin when he was directing was like, mode of transportation is really important and blah, blah, blah.

And it turned out to be awesome. Mike being on the bike and Mike having this bag, it was so iconic and that was all we were seeing. And Harvey being into music and all those records and being like burning the CD with his driver. But that's what I was gonna say is by the episode with Ray the driver and the CD, were you taking inspiration from what Kevin had already?

I think that might've been Ethan Drogon, the writer's idea about the CD. But the other thing about the basketballs, we were trying to figure out a house for Hardman in the pilot, which ended up getting cut in the one pilot, but then it was added back in the Netflix thing. And Kevin wanted it to be a certain way, and we weren't sure, and we were driving in a van

looking for houses, and on the front page of the New York Times real estate section, there was this mansion The headline was who lives here, right? And I was like, this is the house, right? And I start reading the article and it says the person that lived there his name was Richard Saul Worman I grew up with this kid whose name was Richard and I knew his middle name was Saul Worman He was our best friend growing up and I called him. I'm Richard. And I knew he had an uncle with the same name.

I'm like, is this your uncle's house? And he goes, yeah. And I was like, Jesus, what does your uncle do? He founded the Ted Talks. Oh wow. Oh wow. And I said, have you ever been in this mansion? And he says, yeah. And he tells me the thing about that mansion is

anything you touch in that mansion, he's like, yeah, Bill Clinton gave me that or whatever, that was given to me by Stevie Wonder, because he's so famous. So then Kevin and I started talking, we're like, Harvey should have famous people's things, and then somehow that was the idea of the mansion. Wow.

That's so cool. I can't believe I agreed to put my bare feet up on the desk in that scene. Ah, I remember that, yes. I remember you just- Because you can never go back. That's what you can never go back to. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I'm kidding, but it was one of those moments where I was like, really? She's comfortable sitting there? I walked in that room and you were like, Sarah, you're sitting here. And I was like, in Harvey's chair? And you were like, yes. And're sitting here. And I was like, in Harvey's chair? And you were like, yes. And again, that was like a clue for me

about sort of how you were shaping, participating in shaping who Donna was. But now with the whole feet thing, I'm like, oh my God, there's my feet out in the world. You have beautiful feet. No, I do have, I have gorgeous feet. That's my best, my best quality is my feet. I've looked into your photos.

We got a wonder of those feet, I think. We got a wonder of those feet. And I'm thinking, you know, for my OnlyFans account, it's just gonna be my feet, you know. I have a nitpick from the season, new stands. Was that, were we shooting at a new stand with Harvey and Julie? Do you remember what I'm talking about?

There's a whole, there's two scenes where they meet up at a new stand to like, yeah, that was in with the with that in the script or I was watching. I was like, did we have to make that out of a because we were shooting at a place we needed new stance? I don't know. We probably had to make it. I don't remember. Like, did we have to like it was an easier. We're at this location and we need a place for them to meet. It was I just I remember.

I don't remember. I was watching it just, I remember, I don't remember I was watching it cause I was like, are these outdoor nighttime newsstand meetups a thing in New York? Do you remember? No memory. I don't remember. I just, I remember writing the scene when Julie and Emory was in it.

Yeah. But you don't remember deciding it was at a newsstand. Like was that you? No, and that could have been one of those Steve Wakefield things, put it here. That's what I mean. And save us money. Yeah.

That I can't. Okay, got it. Well, you were just pointing at me. Well, because I interrupted you, you had asked him something. Yeah, so it basically is the chemistry read, but also the mythology or the history, the story of Megan coming in. Oh yeah, tell us.

So we had had a very long day of casting, right? We had submitted and gotten rejected other, another Rachel, another person to be Rachel. And the network did not. One time. One time. And then we were in the process of trying to find Rachel. Because it was a very difficult part,

because it's hard to be, she's strong and has a strong point of view. And it was hard to be both strong, beautiful and likeable. It was a tough, it was almost like same difficulty with Gabriel because it was hard to find people that could play both sides of it. Yeah. So I think at the end of the day, Megan came in and spectacularly, she got the note on the dress, the costume, because she has that special style. Isabel Moran or whatever was hot at the time.

Did she have a note? Did you guys give her a note about style? I think the casting folks tell her, you know what you're the- Just come in looking like a million bucks, essentially. Your father owns it. I think it was white. I think we knew her father owned it. No?

So she- Privileged, that she was privileged. Yeah, yeah. She had all white on, I think, if I recall, cause she wore that. Did she wear it? You remember that in the chemistry reading? No, I think, if I recall, because she wore that, did she wear it? You remember that in the chemistry reading? No, I don't remember.

It was like a white. White. The chemistry read was later. But I mean, they tell them to wear the same thing, because that was the only part I was there for, was the chemistry read, right? Yeah. So she came in at Tribeca, and she read for us,

and everybody was just done. It was four o'clock in the afternoon, and I was like, you guys see her? I ran out and got her, brought her back in. And I think I said, charmed them or some little note. And she came in and she read and we asked her some questions. Remember?

She thought she did a shitty job, she told me. I remember she thought she blew it and was not gonna get a call back. And then she was wrong. Yeah. I remember in the. And then she was wrong. I remember in the chemistry read, it was clear. That was the first time I've mentioned it on the pod where I got to be inside the room after someone leaves.

So I was sitting there watching everybody talk about it. That was the moment and Wachtel's like, who, how'd you find her? And then it was like, well, that's, I mean, I think we're all in agreement. It was very clear that she was the one to beat at that point. I don't know if we had anyone to read after, but that was a weird moment being in that room.

Well, you mean with the network talking. Everybody. I was in the room with like 13 people, including Wachtel and you guys. But I mean, it was a difficult role to cast and I think we knocked it out of the park. You begged him to cast me, right? I did.

Yeah, you were like, yeah. No, we've talked about casting you, right? Bartis didn't want to do it. Ha ha ha ha ha ha. And I'll say why though? Bartis, Dave thought it's a new show and because Gabriel had recommended you. And it's a thing to have someone

and a cast member recommend someone else. And he didn't want to do that just because Gabriel recommended. It actually put you in a bad position that Gabriel had recommended you because Dave- Well, you were that good. It is true. We went-

That funny. So Dave was like, listen, I don't think we should do this. It sets a bad precedent. And then it turns out, we just auditioned so many people and Gene and I were both like, I remember talking about him,

and be like, we have to talk to Dave. This is the woman for the role. And Dave was like, okay, I agree. And then that was it. So your talent won him over. Oh. Now I have to get him to cast me on something new? Another job. Could you guys call him for me?

Let's get him on the phone right now. Is there anything before we say our goodbyes for this chapter of our conversation that you want to say about season one? Anything that you want to make sure is left on the table here in this discussion? I love you, Aaron. There we go. That's healing. Can we get a hug? Can we get a hug on camera? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I missed him.

I'm still right. I mean, I don't know what I would say other than, you know, season one to me was a great first chapter, right? Like if you really think of each season as a chapter, season one, I couldn't be happier with the way it introduces the show and platforms season two, and it kind of ends on a, you know, what is gonna happen next year and really, really goes. Um...

I'm excited to watch the next season. Yeah, I mean, too. Well, I started watching when Netflix just skipped me over. I watched the first half, the second season. I couldn't help it. And I was very stoked. I was like, I had to stop myself. I had to be like, no Patrick.

Of that first episode. The first episode. Karen, where's the money, Karen? Blackstone crack. It just was like one into the other. I remember having a conversation with you when I read that and saying like, what are you gonna do?

Like Trevor's there telling Jessica and you were like, what are you gonna do? Like, Trevor's there telling Jessica, and you're like, I have no idea. Oh my God. All right, I'll say this. I was petrified of that ending at the end of season one. I was so afraid to do it, I was like, what are we gonna do? I don't know what to do.

And John Cowan, one of the key writers, basically said, Erin, you just have to trust we're gonna be able to write our way out of it. Because the only thing I didn't wanna do is say it was a dream or undo it in a cheap way. And I was afraid. And once we were successful in that, I was like, I'm never again gonna be,

not do something because I'm afraid of it. I'm gonna embrace these things and we're gonna figure our way out of it. Such a strong ending. Yeah, and John taught me that. And did he come back for season two? He did. He was there one, two, and three. And then he got a big deal from Fox.

So he left after three. I tried to get him back whenever I could, but he was just moved on to other things. But he is actually on Suits LA. Oh, lucky you. Guys, we are so grateful to you, not only for- That was fun, thank you. Changing our lives, but coming in today

and anything else we wanna say? No, I just love seeing you. I hope we get to see more of each other. It really does feel like family around the dinner table without the dinner. Love you guys. Why didn't you cook? It was so rude.

Why didn't we cook? Next time. Well, maybe I'll be on Suits Vegas on the next time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You and I, we'll pitch that. All right, bye. It just feels so great to be with you. Thank you so much.

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