Sidebar: A Suits Watch Podcast - Gina Torres

Episode Date: November 5, 2024

The myth... the legend... the BOSS - Jessica Pearson is in the studio. This week, Patrick and Sarah speak with Gina Torres on how she got the role,  playing the most powerful person in the room, the moments Gina stood up for Sarah on set, and of course - the clothes. They go all in on the beautiful costumes Gina wore as Jessica, because "there's no reason she wouldn't wear what she wanted to." Email us a voice memo of your questions about Suits at [e-mail]. We may use it on the show!Follow us on Instagram & TikTok - @suitssidebarGet access to all the podcasts you love, music channels and radio shows with the SiriusXM App! Get 3 months free using this show link: https://siriusxm.com/sidebar

Hi, I'm Patrick Adams. You may know me as Mike Ross from the TV series Suits. And I'm Sarah Rafferty. You may know me as Donna Poulsen on Suits. This is Sidebar, a Suits rewatch podcast. Or actually a Suits watch podcast because Patrick and I have never really actually watched the show. But today we are going to be doing something a little bit different. Something special. Something very, very exciting. We have a dear friend joining us here on the pod.

The boss, the queen, the one and only... Gina Torres. Very excited to have her in the studio. We're so grateful to her and we're excited to share it with all of you. So thanks for tuning in and let's dive in. Okay, well, today's a very special day on our Sidebar Podcast. We've had, technically had an interview, but this is the first time we've really actually been able to prepare for it

Our guest today was born and raised in the Bronx and originally trained to be a singer in opera and jazz She has a mezzo soprano before becoming an actor She's appeared in a beloved series in films such as alias the shield bones Gossip girl castle two matrix movies and starred in the cult classic series Firefly. Her performance is the powerful and iconic Jessica Pearson on Suits, led to her character's very own spin-off series, Pearson, and she is currently starring on Fox's hit series,

9-1-1 Lone Star. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to the pod, the one, the only, Gina Torres. Hi Gina! Yay! The boss. Hi guys. Welcome to the pod, the one, the only Gina Torres. Hi Gina. That sounds impressive. It's all listed like that. This is so exciting.

Thank you so much for coming here. So grateful. I'm so glad you guys asked me. I'm glad you're doing this. Actually, where were you coming from today? Are you in Los Angeles full time at the moment? Or 911 shoots in LA or you're not actually in Texas. No, we're not in Austin. We actually shoot in LA It's my day off today

Well, obviously, you know what we're doing here We've started this podcast because Sarah and I were both really interested in rewatching this show that we all made together, which we had never really watched. We found out as we began this process. What would you say your watch rate was of Suze? Did you watch it? No. I mean, we were busy. We were. and certainly when the shoot season was over, because we were traveling, because we were sort of quite nomadic during all those seasons, it was about packing up our entire family,

like my kid, my dogs, all my stuff, and heading back to LA and getting back to my life. And so it always felt like I didn't need to watch it. I think I was a little more involved, like the first couple of seasons, just so that I knew, like, what was it? Like, what were we putting out there? Sure. Just to get a sense of that, to stay in the pocket.

But no, I wasn't a serious watcher. Do you tend to watch things that you're on? No, no. I do not like to watch myself. I think I like a lot of other actors. Once I have distance on it... Oh, me too. Distance. Distance is really important. Like, I could watch Firefly now,

because it's been damn near almost 20 years. There are certain things I could watch Firefly now because it's been damn near almost 20 years. There are certain things I can watch with more of a sense of humor about myself and the work. And instead of looking at every mistake or choice that was not in my control, why did they choose that take? Why didn't they choose that? Why didn't you know? Oh my God, yeah. That just keeps playing in my head while I'm watching it. I cannot get involved with the story. I'm too involved with my choices if I'm too close to it.

Once there's distance on it, then I can enjoy the show. And that's what I've discovered in this process with Patrick is that both of us struggle with watching ourselves too really deeply. Patrick's face is like big eyes, big nods. We can look now with loving eyes. Or more, let's say more loving.

More forgiving. I would say some kinder eyes would be more accurate. We're like five episodes in and we've already had a few tough moments. Moments of that. Offline. But yes, kinder eyes, kinder eyes. Yes, well yeah, there's a little PTSD that happens when you give your life over to a show.

And there are certain things that still live in your body that sort of hide in places that you relive, that you're watching. And I was watching an episode the other day and with my partner and he said, do you remember any of that? And I said, no, I don't remember the show per se. I remember the things that made it difficult

on the day that we shot this. Or how that jacket fit. Or where I had to hide the mic pack. Like, but the actual storyline, like actually, oh yeah, like I couldn't remember that line. That's, yeah, no. You know, you just said, and I don't wanna get too far away from it, but you talked about, like, that section in our lives with the back and forth and the back and forth,

and I just wanna ask how it was for you for those years. You mean back and forth from Toronto? Is that what you're talking about? Yeah, like... From LA to Toronto. It was, well, oh my God. Um, it never got easier. Hmm. It was a process of getting my daughter, Delilah, you know, settled for the first part of her

school season, for like the first six months of school, settled and getting ready. And then it would be spring break. And the weeks leading up to spring break meant packing up the house, arranging for our dogs, Bingo pajamas and Biscuit martini, to make a drive. We found this incredible company because we didn't want to crate them in the plane. And so there were these husband and wife team that would drive them in three days from Los Angeles to Toronto. And we'd say goodbye to them in LA. We'd pack everything else up and then spring break would start here in LA.

It was also sort of happening as well in Toronto. We'd get to Toronto. The dogs would arrive the following day. get to Toronto, the dogs would arrive the following day. And then when spring break in Toronto was over, Delilah had a whole new class of kids that she would settle herself into there. Would you get pictures of your dogs on the road trip? Yes. Like at various American national parks?

Absolutely. Like in front of, you know what I'm saying? Sometimes. Like in the Grand Canyon. Yeah, sometimes. Mount Rushmore. Not Mount Rushmore, no, they missed that one. Patrick, I don't know if you know this, but you did that the first year we were there,

and then you helped me do that the second year we were there. Because I commuted back and forth that first year. Yep. And Una stayed at home. But then, you know, it was really, I had Iris by the second year and it was time to move the whole circus. Pack up the tent. Pull the tent down. To move everything, you know. And Patrick, Gina was the one who was like, just linked arms with me and said, here you go, honey, this is what we're gonna do. And I just wanna say right now, I can feel it, the PTSD in your body that you're talking about.

I can feel it in my body right now as I'm sitting across from you, I'm kind of welling up, my heart rate is going faster. Like, I don't know what I would have done if you hadn't shown me the way. Oh. And thank God we were in that together because Una joined the class that Delilah was joining. And then we continued to do that every year. And they were going back and forth in their LA schools and back and forth in their Toronto schools and they had each other.

And I'm so deeply grateful for that. Yeah. Thank you. Oh my goodness. I'm so deeply grateful for that. Yeah. Thank you. Oh, my goodness. I'm so grateful for you. And here we are still, all these years later. Yeah, we got through that together. We created summer camp. Oh, gosh. We did, yes. We created a whole summer camp for them.

Yeah, that's kind of part of the thing. I remember we would have these long conversations of like, what are we doing? Is this right? Is this okay? Like, are the kids gonna be okay? And I held fast to the belief that they would acquire a skillset and a fortitude that will serve them. And I believe that that is true.

I see Delilah be able to, she doesn't have the kind of social anxiety that a lot of kids might go through because she traveled, because of those early years. But it was also our commitment to making sure that as much as they had a life in the circus, that was our choice, that we created as much consistency

in their lives as possible. Yes. So that our inconsistency didn't affect them in the ways that they weren't ready for, that they didn't deserve. And I mean, listen, there's still time for that tell-all book that'll hit. We are all weighted with right. You know, who knows? I wish you had been parenting me throughout all these lessons.

But before we dive, I want to go back a little bit because we've dive right into suits. But before I want to sort of take us back, because when Sarah and I begin this podcast, we kind of had some really great discussions about what was going on for us before Suits even started. Like it was a really good kind of warm up to be like, you know, it's 2011, it's the week before you've gotten the audition for Jessica Pearson and what was a legal mind, I guess, back then. Like what do you remember about, you know, who Gina Torres was at that point?

What was going on for you? How was the career, how were you feeling, what sort of things were you looking to do? Um, I was just coming out of Mommy Fog. Delilah was three, um, or maybe not quite yet three. When I auditioned for that show, I had made, um, a choice to not leave Los Angeles for work. I would work in two places that where we had homes.

So I would work in LA or I would work in New York, which I did do. I was, you know, everyone's favorite house guest on several different shows. I, I traveled with her, you know, if I could do three days or a week on something. So you were working. So I was working. In those years. I wasn't doing a, yeah, I was, I was, I was working, you know, sporadically and then suits came along or a legal mind. The audition for that came along and they said, if it goes, it's going to shoot in New

York. And I said, yes. Yes, they did. Perfect. A little backstory. A few months or maybe it was a previous year, I can't even remember right now, but I had auditioned for another USA show, COVID Affairs. Didn't go my way, but got very, very close. And you know, didn't think too much of it.

The Legal Mind Aud audition came along. It's going to shoot in New York. I was like, if this goes, this is perfect. Because my husband at the time, Lawrence, said this will be great because we had wanted to sort of spend more time in New York anyway. Our hometown. And I jumped through all the flaming hoops that actors have to jump through and thought, huh, this is interesting.

And then it kept going back and forth and kept going back and forth. And I didn't really quite understand why. Because usually when it goes back and forth like that, you get notes as an actor like, oh, can she or will she or can she tweet this? You mean it was going back and forth like you had audition, can she or will she or can she tweet this? You mean it was going back and forth like you had auditioned but they weren't pulling the trigger on it?

Yeah. Like you were, oh, okay, got it. And I was also far long enough in my career that it was, there are these code words that you use for not telling an actress at a certain level that she's actually auditioning, you're just having meetings. Yeah, you're just talking. We just want to have a conversation where you read the material in front of us. Yeah, exactly. And then we can talk about, right. So I had some meetings.

Do you remember, you and I, the day that I think I was there reading with Rachel Zanes, we met. I think it was the first time we met. I mean, not that you would remember you were there to audition, but I ran into you before you were going in and I couldn't believe that Gina Torres was there to audition for this show. Like I was already excited because you were having, sorry, you weren't auditioning, you were meeting, you were meeting. Because I guess by that point I had already booked it, which so I was already on cloud nine, but then I showed up to this to this session to read with Rachel's and Gina Torres was going in for a meeting. And I was like a blubbering child around you.

I was like, I didn't want to interrupt you. But at the same time, I was like, I can't leave this waiting room without saying something to her. So by the way, Gina, this is not the first time he's told that story. Like, this is this is how formative it is. Wow. I mean, it was really like one of the first moments where I got like even more excited. I was already excited. I'm making a pilot.

This is going to be amazing. But then I was like, wait a minute, Gina could be in this pilot? Who is that? What's she doing here? Love it. Well, that was, in fact, that was my last meeting. Oh, it was? Great. It was. It was my last meeting.

And the holdup was, and I do remember you sitting in a chair talking to one of the Rachel's, the Rachel that ended up being a Rachel, but I kind of had come in. I was very focused. I remember exactly what I was wearing because it was by that time that I had basically said, fuck it.

I'm just, I'm just going to walk in and I'm just going to be who I believe this woman is. And I had on a black and white wrap. Diane. Yeah. DVF dress and high, high heels. Yeah, you did. And my hair was all, you know, cascading. And because one of the holdups was

that they thought I was too young to play the part. That a woman in that position. Oh, Erin talked about that. Yeah, that a woman in that position wouldn't be as young as I was at the time. And they kept trying to age me, like they wanted me to come in, like in a bun and sort of more restrained and sort of, and I was like, and I was like no no no no no no sir some birds are not meant to be caged no so with a little help from the covert affairs audition they had already seen me play a character

that was in charge got it Do you remember there being any difference other than like the age thing about maybe what was on the page? Like that you had to overcome, it was like your idea? Like, no, no, no, I'm just gonna do this my way and show them what this actually is. I mean, I know Erin was here. You may or may not have spoken of this already, but that character was never meant to be a woman,

much less a woman of color. It was written to be an older white man. And so there were still vestiges of that. But I have to quote Diane Carroll, the late great Diane Carroll on this. When she spoke of approaching Aaron Spelling about her character on Dynasty, Dominique Devereux. He was like, well, I don't know how to write for you.

And she said, write for a powerful white man. I will take care of the rest. Oh. Oh. Wow. Oh, Gina. That's exactly it. Yeah.

Right drop. Somebody, can I take this mic and throw it on the ground? But so by the time the script got to you though, was it already? It was a woman. It was a woman. It was a woman. It was a woman. And then they had auditioned all kinds of women from what I'm assuming by the time I had my

meetings. But it was towards the end. And when I walked into a room, they had made the decision that it would be a black woman. Because one of the rooms that I walked into absolutely had a lot of very accomplished, interesting black actresses that they were considering. So you find out you get the part, you're going to New York.

Yep. We're all going to New York together. Hopefully to stay in New York. We'll get to that post pilot Obviously, we've talked a lot about the pilot process in this but what if anything you remember about us like all getting to New York And the process of shooting this pilot getting to know each other were there things that stuck out to you about the process I mean just watching your performance on the show and I know that it takes some episodes before we get to You know see all the depths of this character and see what she does your performance on the show and I know that it takes some episodes before we get to, you know, see all the depths of this character and see what she does. But right away you

had like a handle on this character that was sort of absurd, you know, there didn't seem to be much warm up. It was like you understood. You understood the assignment. Was that your experience of shooting the pilot or are you just really good at looking like you understand the assignment? Or was it just a walk in the park? Um, well, I don't know. I think it was a combination of a lot of things. I knew what I wanted to do with her.

And there was also a part of me that was incredibly distracted because I had a three-year-old at home. Mm-hmm. So it seemed to me that it was the perfect job for me at the time because I was number four on the call sheet. I knew I would work about three days a week, three or four days a week. So the time that I got to like hit it, I was all in, to like hit it. I was all in. All in all the time. And because I didn't have that much screen time, it was easy to do. It was physically easy to get into that space of, it makes no sense for this woman to have the title that she does

and just kind of half-ass it. There had to be a reason why I was there. There had to be a reason why people spoke of me in, you know, with some fear in their voices. There hadn't, so it was up to me to come up with that reason. So every time I showed up on screen, it had to be an event in my brain. Mm, yeah, well, mission accomplished. Yeah. So, mission accomplished.

Yeah. So, thank you. MUSIC I remember when we were in the thick of having the three-year-olds and the four-year-olds and the five-year-olds at home, it felt like Monday morning in the trailer was the new like TGIF, because we had been through a huge weekend and then you go to work at 4.30 in the morning. Yeah, there you go.

4.30 in the morning, you sit down and maybe in our case, we were so lucky somebody would bring us a coffee. And it was like, I would want to cry. Somebody brought me scrambled eggs once and I was like, oh my gosh, thank you so much. I'm so grateful. I'm sure that I cried. Like it was so, I have this memory of the pilot and then the first episode after the pilot that there was

a lot of energy around what you were wearing. I remember being on set at the pilot and you were being changed. It was really cool, pants suits. The pilot was different from the first three episodes and then Jolie comes in on 104 and we'll get to that. But there was just a lot of energy and I remember you and I connecting on that. That was one of my first memories of Gina was just like, you're like, here we go, I'm gonna go get changed again. You know? What was going on? Which just to give you some feedback, Gina too, is like I had no nothing about fashion as I'm sure you

already know. So I've been watching these episodes of being, look how amazing Gina looks, because you do in all the early episodes. And Sarah the whole time is like, yes, but the clothes like we're not even there yet. I'm like, what do you mean? These clothes are amazing. Look at these suits.

So I've been a little bit of babe in the woods. Well, that's just because Gina can wear anything and make it look insane. Just hold onto your hat, Patrick, because it's like Jessica's gonna grow Jessica can wear anything and make it look insane. Just hold onto your hat, Patrick, because it's like Jessica's gonna grow into couture. And it's a big change when you're, look, those clothes walk you too, to some degree.

So there's a big change. But anyway, what was going on in the pot? Do you remember this? What I remember is that there was our costume designer, I think his name was Patrick. Lovely man. In New York. Yes, he was lovely.

For the pilot was great because he mixed it up. I had beautiful skirts, I had blazers and he got it. Yeah. What a powerful woman would choose to wear. But his color palette, he also felt restricted because he was like, these women don't wear color. So we do the pilot, it's fine. And then we get into the series.

And it was just one long parade of, and no offense to Armani, just blue or black Armani suits with a shell. Yes. And my frustration was that, you know, I didn't, it was fine. I didn't have problem with it. At some point it's like, I still got to learn my lines. I still got to sell this scene.

You know, I'm going to make this work. But what I resented was being called in for another hour fitting for another suit. And like, don't you know how these fit already? Like what? What are we doing here? I don't understand. So that was part of my frustration. All the elements were just not fully together yet. And I think it was because they were still trying to figure out. I know for me, probably for you, all our characters, where we really lived, like where the souls of these characters live and how did they realize themselves on the outside. And are we playing with, are we doing a heightened reality?

Are we doing it by the numbers? And nobody had decided that yet. So we had to physically, I believe, all the departments had to physically catch up with the elevated banter and storytelling that we were engaged in. Somebody finally figured out that we had to look as smart as we were engaged in. Somebody finally figured out that we had to look as smart as we were.

That we had to make as bold choices on the outside as we were making in the world. Is there a budgetary thing too in that, I mean, I know as we went on and some of the clothes that you, again, I know nothing about fashion. I don't know how much these things cost, but I know that we had a wall of purses that I could tell was a serious collection over time. Was there a budgetary, like early on in the season,

we probably also didn't have access to the same kind of money as a production. So we were having to be creative about ways to make it look like a million dollars. If we only had, you know, if we didn't have the million dollars yet to make us. I love your use of the royal we, I think they put it all into Harvey. By the time I will say I had a meeting with Julie,

I had a phone call before I actually met her and she said, well, how do you see this character? And by then it had already, we'd done a couple of episodes and it was clear to me what the relationship was between Jessica and Harvey. And I said, well, I'm his mentor. Who do you think taught him how to dress? Nice. Man, I love you so much. Oh my God, I love you so much.

So good. So, we should. And that's the end of our episode. Thank you all for listening. Thanks for tuning in. That's it. And then I said, there's no reason for a woman in her position to not wear exactly what she wants to wear because she can afford it. And she has no one to answer to.

Jolie said, got it. And that was the beginning. That's a great thing to bring up. And I think it's like a fun thing to talk about just that relationship with Harvey. Harvey is the great closer of this show and he's the guy used to being all fancy. thing to bring up and I think it's like a fun thing to talk about just that relationship with Harvey Harvey is the great closer of this show and he's the guy used to being all fancy and doing all these things and then you truly are his mentor you are the person that has taught him everything that he knows and yet we don't get to spend nearly as much time with Jessica Pearson you know especially in these early episodes can you just talk to that relationship a bit?

Like what that was, like what it is to be, you know, Harvey is the lead of the show. You're in charge of the lead. You are always in charge in every single scene. You know, it's incredibly humbling, I have to say. Because it's a lot to try to accomplish in a short period of time. Right. As you're looking at it. because it's a lot to try to accomplish in a short period of time as you're looking at it. But again, because it's so important and it looms so large,

motherhood's like that. And you don't think about it, you just have to do it. You just have to guide this person as best you can and move them in certain directions that you hope would serve them. And that was Jessica's job is to not rein him in necessarily. Well, sometimes you did have to rein him in, but to remind him that this was the playing field. These are your gifts.

And this is what needs to happen. And that was always very clear and very laid out in any given episode that I had to do until it got really messy. And then when it got really messy between our two characters, as you know, there were a couple of takeovers, there were a couple of moves in the night, there were a couple of like, all these things started happening.

And the ultimate betrayal, which is bringing an imposter into my firm. I remember having these conversations with Gabriel, because he didn't get it. I said, you have no idea, it's like a teenager, you have no idea how hurtful you're being. You have no idea how hurtful you're being. You have no idea how painful this is for Jessica that Harvey's doing. Well, you did. I said, no, no, no, no.

Right, right, right. And so I think that ultimately helped our onscreen dynamic, but it just didn't feel very different from what I was doing at home. It also feels like just as an actor, you had to do so much with ultimately quite little at the beginning. You know, like there's not a lot of runway to establish who this person is and the power she has. And it's something that I now me watching all the episodes, I'm just sort of astonished at everybody's capacity to communicate a lot with quite a little bit.

But for you being the person who has to really establish dominance over this world, and you only have sort of a handful of scenes to do it, it's just a remarkable thing to watch you, you know, with like the look, staring out a window in a scene, you know, when Harvey says something and you realize that he's like playing right into your game plan,

and we get to see that look just kind of come over your face. It's the sort of thing that you can't really script. Maybe it's scripted, I'll have to look, but I don't think, I think I saw a number of those moments when I see you understanding again the assignment of like, how can I take this very small scene and show you just how in charge I am and how I'm the one playing the chess game here.

And Harvey, as smart as he is, he's just a piece on the chessboard. Yeah, that was fun. That was fun to play. A lot of those things weren't scripted. A lot of those things kind of came up in the moment. And the scripts were great. The scripts gave me reason and enough inspiration to be able to play with all of that.

And Sarah and I talked briefly that still in all, I don't think, especially in that first season, I don't think the writers, Erin, quite understood what a different kind of woman was being created with Jessica Pearson. Say more, say more. Yeah, I wanna hear more about that. Yeah.

Were you discovering it too? Or is this stuff that you knew right away and you felt like you almost had to educate? Or was it something that was coming to you as you were playing it over the course of the first season? Well, it was certainly something that was coming to me. Now, I have to reference earlier work in that I've made a really lovely career of playing lethal, badass women. And I've always done it with a sense of humor and pride and also firmly, firmly rooted in my femininity

and in the power of my femininity. And so I never felt like I had to sacrifice one for the other. And so often when you're playing, my experience of seeing other women play powerful women is that they choose a harshness or they're directed in that direction or whatever it is, but they feel like they have to pull from their masculine

side to be able to make the point to be able to feel more powerful. And by the time I got to Jessica and I was 40 in my 40s, and this woman in particular just felt like I didn't want to sacrifice anything that I had already learned along the way, that I was feeling more in my body and more delicious as a woman and as a human being. And that I wanted to bring that to the table. I wanted to bring that to Jessica. And the importance in hindsight of doing that

is all the years of being in a man's world did not take that from her. If anything, it made her more certain of the choices that she made and where she was sitting in her world and in her life. So that was important to me. Whether I did that consciously or subconsciously or that's just where I was in my life

and I really couldn't overthink it because I had a three-year-old at home, that's where I was. And so that's what I brought, the entirety of that. Yeah, we've talked a bit about that. I feel like just that meeting of where we are in our lives when we play a role and then suddenly you find yourself playing that role for seven years, there's this like inevitable parallel where like wherever you're at in your life has brought you to this moment to

play this role and now you're bringing things to it that maybe you're not even, it's not even fully intentional. It's just like, this is what's going on with me and if I'm going to be here 15 hours a day, five days a week or whatever, three days a week, this is what's going on with me, and if I'm gonna be here 15 hours a day, five days a week, or whatever, three days a week, I, this is what's coming to this character, and then the writers start picking up on it, and now all of a sudden, you're kind of away at the races, and yeah, they're writing it, but you're also playing it,

and so in a sense, you're writing it at the same time. I think there's like sometimes a mystical alignment with that. My experience of playing Donna evolved into something that I felt like, oh, I'm learning a lot from her. There's a piece of me, of Sarah, that's supposed to be developed by this experience. And one of the things to go back to what you were saying too is also in something as simple as when we had to do press or promotion for the show, there was always, I think, I'm sure for the three of us women series regulars on the show, there was a lot of,

at the time especially, these are really strong female characters. How does it feel to play a strong female character? And I felt like that question is a cool question and it was important to see those women on TV but it almost diminished these women in some way too because they were most empowered in that they weren't trying to fit into a man's world. And the masters of their universes. I mean, Donna.

More than anyone, clearly. Do you guys find that what you're talking about just so beautiful to hear about this, like sort of playing from the feminine side and bringing that power and not having to be a masculine woman in order to succeed in these worlds. Did you feel like that was something that as you played it, it was really picked up by the writers, or did you feel like it was something that as you played it, it was really picked up

by the writers? Or did you feel like it was a constant push and pull of things that would come out of the writers' room that would be like, oh, no, no, no, you guys, you're going more in that direction and we really feel like it's this way? Or was it a natural kind of coming together? And would the story and the character progress that way? Or did you kind of have to fight for that along the way? I think in my case, they, you know, we joke about how they, especially in the first season, they kind of make Donna present.

Like, she always hears everything, and then she kind of has this omniscient quality. And so when they're giving these, like, concrete pieces, like, this is somebody who knows everything. This is the person who knows exactly who to call. This is a person who knows exactly who to call. This is a person who has the right relationship to fix this. Then that's ultimately supporting that you are

the architect of your own life and the master of your own universe, so that you can lean further and further into it. I think that the other elements of the show started to very much support that. You know, not to beat a dead horse, but like, not the least of which was how we were dressed. Because it was so feminine and so powerful. Yeah, I agree. -♪ HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH trying to put you into masculine. Oh, they left me alone after a while. That implies there was some work to do though. That implies that there was some.

I think that again, as the show rolls on, you never really learned that much about Jessica, about who Jessica is, you know, she has the least developed backstory of anyone. So I have to say, just in terms of serving the show, I was more interested once it, you know, I mean, it became very clear what my job on that show was. And so it wasn't so much about character development for Jessica. Jessica was supporting Harvey and Mike's

character development and trying to stay afloat. I mean, it's like chewing press every season. It was, well, what's happening? Well, there's, you know, there's an enemy at the gate. So I don't have time to deal with dot, dot, dot, dot that there's a fraud in my, because there's another takeover happening. So it was always about keeping the bigger enemy at bay for Jessica.

And I did that with a great deal of style. Yeah, with a great deal of style. And we all could feel who Jessica was, even in the scenes that were about maybe the same thing, you know, the enemy at the gate. We still could feel who the entirety of Jessica, thanks to Gina Torres playing Jessica, so. We all love that.

Thanks, it's always fun when they talk about you if you're not in the scene. That's always fun. I'd read the script and I'm like, oh good, they're talking about me. I'm still alive. This kind of leads nicely into where we're at in our process of watching, which obviously we're still early, but this episode, Dirty Little Secrets, because it is the first episode

where I feel like we got to get a peek under the hood of Jessica Pearson, so to speak. We get to see a bit of a backstory and we get to learn a bit about an old relationship, an old marriage. What do you remember about that episode and about, you know, after having done, I guess, three episodes at that point where you were sort of not getting a lot and having to service this other story of Harvey and Mike to see this play out? And how did this story, like, were you happy to see this? Did you feel like it was, you know, a good opportunity to do it?

Was it still you had to try and do a lot more with not so much? What was it like? I was intrigued by it. First, I was thrilled to play with Russell Hornsby, a huge fan, had been a huge fan of his for some time. So the fact that I could pretend that we had been married in an alternate universe for a little while was was just great. And I remember he and I, you know,

singing in between setups because he's like a human jukebox. Oh my God. So that was fun. We do that on set together. As far as the storyline went, I have to honestly say it was like the first time that I felt that what the writers were trying to accomplish and what I saw as viable were very different.

Because first of all, it was, and God bless them, it had to have been one of the most convoluted storylines. The case of it, the ALS of it all. Not so much the case of it, but the fact that I was married in secret. Right. Married and divorced in secret, but, you know, courted and like for the world at large, like this woman had no life outside of the office. And yet she managed to be married, have the marriage go badly, get divorced. It was all big secret. And no one knows. And no one knows, including her apparently.

And that all this time would go by and that I would still have this emotional attachment to the degree that they wanted me to have an emotional attachment to this person that I arguably had not seen for 10 years, at least. So listen, I've played a freedom fighter in rubber hot pants. You know, I mean, I don't have a problem with like making shit up to make it work, to make it all right, you know, but in this case, there was a moment where I think they wanted Jessica to be a different kind of woman than the woman that I had believed her to be. So interesting.

And that she wasn't sitting at home drinking scotch thinking about the one that got away. This is a person that she cares deeply about that she wants to help, that she had a life with, and that was a long time ago. Yeah, yeah. It was, you know, like that, it was 10, the man that she was married to. I'm not hiding. Not heartbroken, not wrenching your heart out over what could have been. No, exactly. And so there was like, it was tricky when I rewatched it, those PTS moments that we're

talking about, like I'm watching, I'm like, oh, right. That. The bar scene. Wasn't it the bar scene? It was the bar scene that was particularly difficult to shoot because they, the writer that was on set at the time and the director, it seemed like they wanted me to have

like this emotional breakdown. And I didn't believe it. I didn't believe it. I didn't believe it in the writing. I didn't believe that. I didn't believe it. I didn't believe it in the writing. I didn't believe that I could manufacture that. To be clear, a breakdown, this is the scene where, you know, just after Jessica's learned that he has ALS himself, so he is going to die. So they wanted the breakdown based on that information. Like I'm falling apart here, he's gonna die. Yes.

And my take, my instinctual take, had more to do with a general feeling of mortality. Your age, when someone that's been close to you is dying or dies and suddenly you realize nothing's promised. And life can be incredibly short. And you start taking stock about the choices that you make. They're not necessarily about that person.

It's about life. It's about your existence. And that's where I went with it. I went to, I'm going to help this person that once meant something to me. And also just wanting to express how shattering that is as a human that this is happening. It wasn't long after that I actually lost somebody that was very close to me, that was my age.

And it does that to you. It shakes you up. So interesting that they'd want you to lose it in that scene. Again, whatever day. We're not pointing fingers at anybody. We're all in the process of trying to make a TV show and it's hard, but it's an interesting choice too, because I hear that and I think Jessica losing it in front of Harvey, you know, that part of it too, like, like the

boundaries of what that relationship is, which we're still in episode four, we were realizing that we actually shot these episodes all kind of out of a different order, but wherever we are in the process, that would have seemed an odd choice too. Like is Harvey the person that you have, if Jessica were to have a breakdown about anything,

is it a thing that happens with Harvey? That was also part of it. I'm in a public place, I'm at a bar, and I'm talking with my employer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you remember what that meeting of the minds was on set when you are in that location and you have a new director, and all the writers were new to us

each time that they showed up. So how did that conversation go? Well, it had to happen because it was take after take after take of them not getting what they wanted. And anyone that works with me knows that I don't do a lot of takes. I just don't. It's like, tell me, you know, I come in with an idea. I get directed. I'm like, OK, great. I execute that direction.

It's not take after take of somebody explaining the scene to me of how I should be feeling. Right. Right, right. At which point I got up from the chair and went to the monitors and spoke to whoever was back there and said, what is it? And then explained how I was feeling about it. And then went back to the bar, took my seat and did one more take and we were done. Okay. But still held your ground that like whatever it is you guys think needs to happen here,

I know as the actor who's building this person that we're taking it as far as it can go in that direction. Like this, we've reached that point. Like you were holding firm to your idea of your instinct, which is if you think it's a breakdown, that's just, that's not what this scene is. Pretty much. That's so inspiring. Yes. This is triggering a few core memories for me. First of all, I do remember, I was away during this episode, but I do remember coming back

and that we had conversations about that. And then cut to many seasons later, I was doing a scene with you. And I remember you were sitting on the couch in Jessica's office. I don't even know what season it was. I do remember who was there and I was standing there and it was take after take after take

for something small, right? And what I should say, I should preface this with, there was a point on our show, and I think this happens on every TV show, where things sometimes can get very, very managed. Very, very, very managed. And it was- Micro-managed.

Yes. And I was doing it, and. And it was... Micro-managed. Yes. And I was doing it, and I think it was one line. Just again, try it this way. You know, again, this, just when they roll and they give you the direction. And I was there with my friend Gina. So as it wasn't time to cut and move on, I remember just body language with you.

I took my shoulders and put them down and kind of hung my head. Like, I had a downward-facing dog just body language with you. I took my shoulders and put them down and kind of hung my head. Like I had a downward facing dog just like, brr. I'm, and you were like, I think you got up again or you called them in. I think you called the person in and you were like, what is it? And I wasn't in a place yet in my journey where I could do that for myself. Me neither.

My friend Gina advocated for me. And I was too, I don't know what I was. Patrick and I are in a process of discovering who the people we were at the time. But I had not developed that piece of me or known that I had not developed that piece of me or known that I wanted to develop that piece of me until I was sharing that moment with my friend on set many years into our relationship.

And you were like, and no, you know, this is not, this is a time- You're gonna make me cry. It's time to say, well, maybe it's the perfect time to suggest Patrick, there's another, one of my biggest core memories of suits that I recently made Gina cry at a lady's lunch when I told everybody was that we were in the trailer. It was an early season and I was just being me and my friend Gina said, don't talk about my friend like that.

You taught me that years ago. Was it Gina who did it? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think we were at one of our suits weekend up at the cottage and I remember being taught that. It has never, I use it with my children. I was like, first of all,

you were talking about my beloved child. You do not speak of her that way, whether I'm here or not, right? And they know it's from you, you know, of course to me it's copywritten, but it was life changing. And it is related to that time on set, that the moment, yes, there's times when we just get on

with it and we're like, yeah, what do you want? Just keep it rolling. I'll try it 10 different ways. Yeah, sure, sure, sure. And then there's the times when it's like, I don't understand why I don't get it. And now I'm just feeling lost or like I have, sometimes it can descend into worse feelings. Yeah, no, absolutely. I think as actors we're game to play

and it's fun and it's exciting. And I think that because we are often game, because we wanna do our best and we want to serve the piece, that it can get misconstrued and it can lean into disrespect by people who are trying to get something or a performance or if you're not in on the joke,

if you're not in on the process, if you're not in on the process, you start feeling like, or you start, I'm not going to say that you start feeling like it, it's because you are actually being treated like a sock puppet. Mm-hmm. Which I believe is what I told the person that was making my friend get smaller and smaller in my eyes. And I said, don said, you can't do that. You can't do that. I have a specific question about a scene in 104. It's a scene where Jessica is interrogating Lisa,

Lisa's character. So I did have a question here about writer, director, versus actors, what was being played here. I was really, I watched the scene many times. I loved this scene. I was really intrigued, really, really intrigued by it. I really leaned in when I watched it. And my question, I guess, to you is,

do you think that the writers were intending to have Jessica confront Lisa in a way that revealed Jessica's pain over the infidelity or do you think that Jessica was using that trope about infidelity pain kind of strategically as a lawyer in order to break the witness and therefore to serve her client? I think that was classic Jessica lawyering Manipulation. I mean classic is the first time we see it.

So it then became sort of classic in terms of her being the chess player that she is. It's the first time we see this woman do the thing. And so I think that's the fun of the scene. I think that's what makes that scene kind of interesting. That makes you kind of lean in. Like, is she still pissed about that thing that happened? Is she, like, where is this coming from? Because when the scene starts, you're not even sure

if she's deposing her or prepping her or if they're actually having an argument. Right, yeah. And then you realize, oh, she's trying to prepare her because they're going to come after her. This is what they do. This is what has to be done. And before that actually happens, there's much said about making sure that we need

to know everything that we need to know so that we don't get sideswiped in court. And I think by then, I think Jessica already knows that it's her, it's Lisa. Lisa's holding the piece and she's got to get to it. So it's chess playing and it's also, yeah, it's using what she knows and getting her to be vulnerable, but it's not coming from. I hate you. Yeah, yeah. I'm gonna take you down. It's not coming from that place. I'm gonna slide you down, John. One of my favorite details of this episode

is the way that Harvey presents you with the folder you guys are driving in the car. You open it and you look at it and you go, you think I didn't know about this and you sort of very quickly say, this is all in the past. I knew that he was with Lisa before our relationship was over. And you just cool as a cucumber, like Harvey, this is old news, get over it. I'm taking the case back.

Essentially you're done. And then in the very next scene with Quentin, we learned that in fact, you didn't know that. Right. And it's such an interesting quick pivot because you see how fast Jessica is on her feet. Like she's definitely not giving Harvey any pleasure or not even pleasure, he wouldn't take pleasure in it, but you're not getting to see the part of me

that is reacting to this news. Right. That I didn't know. So quickly we see you just push that to the side and go that's not for you. And then we get to see you in that next scene with Quentin where you actually get to you know now Harvey's not around and we get to see you have a more emotional response to something that would be horrific and horrible to hear and so

that was my favorite part of the episode is all those little moments where we got to see Jessica be who she was solely with Quentin those are two of my favorite scenes when you're with him in the park and then when you're with him on the couch towards the end. Yeah. And you have this great, I was mad line that is pure Gina. I was like, there's Gina. That's Gina. When you get the peek, when you're like, there's my friend. There's my friend.

I loved that. That was fun. I'm almost smiling. Yeah, I was mad. Yeah, yeah, I was mad. Yeah, it reminded me of my friend that I went to Dubai with. Oh yeah. Because we had some fun when we did that. That was really fun.

You guys went to Dubai? That's a whole different podcast. So do we have some fan questions? Would this be a good time to look at some of those? Carrie from Fort Myers, Florida said, in general, I'm having a hard time sorting out exactly how Jessica felt about Mike. Such a complex dynamic.

What are your thoughts? Tell it like it is. Don't pull any punches. I'd have a better take on that if we actually spent any time in a room together during that show. Well, that whole first season specifically, spend any time in a room together during that show. Well, that whole first season specifically, I mean, I am, it's actually quite funny. Like every time you enter a room, Mike does whatever he can to get out of it as

quickly as possible. He's so overwhelmed by your presence that he can't even be near you for more than a couple of lines of dialogue, but it changes over the course of the season. I mean, obviously you'll get too far ahead of each other, but we start soon as Jessica learns what Mike's up to. They do, she wants you done. They get a few moments together. So there's that.

It's complicated. You wonder how Jessica would have treated Mike had he not been such a threat to her entire existence. But that is in fact the dynamic of the show. She respects his mind. Right. I think that by the time you get to the end of the first season, you know, there's that little, that chess game, that meeting of the minds that we never see that, you know, that happens,

that you guys will get to eventually. The only problem she has with Mike is that he's a threat to everything that she's worked so hard for. To everything she's built. Other than that, she thinks you're a great guy. Unfortunately, you have to die. In Game of Thrones, I'm dead. The episode where Mike brings in his first client with the tennis scene with, we just

did it, the tennis scene with Lewis and Lewis takes him and Mike ends up bringing in his first client because he gets stoned with him. And we have a moment there. We have a moment where you begin to see, you know, again, you don't know the truth yet, so it's all about to fall apart. But there's a nice moment where you can feel like Jessica's starting to see the smallest seed of a Harvey and Mike. But I guess I, he is about to burn it all down.

This is Angie. Why doesn't Jessica, the managing partner have an assistant? Well, Will K also wants to know that. I said, why doesn't Jessica have a Donna? I asked him very early on. And his response was the entire firm is her Donna. Lies and propaganda. She, it's, she has, we just never saw her. She, I, you know, who knows? She doesn't need one.

That's an excellent question. The whole team. It's a whole different floor. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, she has, we just never saw her. She, you know, who knows? She doesn't need one. That's an excellent question. It's a whole different floor.

It's all the paralegals. It's all the paralegals, it's everybody. But yeah, no, mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah, like I said. That was budgetary also. I'm sure it was. I mean, Norma was imaginary.

Let's not forget that. Norma was imaginary. Forget that. Norma was ceramic at one point. And now that the show is what it is and has now had this strange renaissance, obviously, which is sort of so strange and surreal. Do you ever think about why is it so successful? Or do you have any thoughts on what, like what, why? What, not only why was it successful the first time around, why does it seem to have a lasting power?

Why does it seem to really appeal to audiences all over the world, as I'm sure you've experienced, like you travel and people all over the globe. What are your thoughts on that? What do you think about Suits? What was it about our show that seems to keep appealing to people over time? I think it's aspirational. I think the fact that we are, and I've said this,

and I've said this before, and I've also talked to other people about it, they love how impossibly smart we are, how impossibly put together we are, how impossibly charming we are, how impossibly put together we are, how impossibly charming we are, how impossibly well dressed we are. There's something about that that gives people permission to dare to be that brave in their own life, that courageous in their own life. Because it goes to what we were saying before. It's like Harvey's not the only superhero in that show.

You know, we learned that we learned that later, but everybody in that show is a superhero in their own way. I mean, I hear from young women all the time, and I also hear from young men, but specifically young women who have said so often to me, I've got a meeting and I'm watching suits because I'm watching Jessica Pearson, I'm trying to get my Jessica Pearson on, I'm trying to get my, you know, and they draw from that. They draw from, yeah, the audacious feeling that we can do whatever we want to, because we can.

I mean, that's what it is. So funny you say that. I just came, I spoke at the Oxford Union this past weekend here in the UK to like 400 students now at Oxford. So they're all, you know, still quite young and you just nailed it on the head. It's absolutely pure aspiration. Every single one of the, most of the people in the audience, they're not theater students or acting students, they're all lawyers.

They're all studying to be lawyers and they are all so fired up by our show and these characters because they're right at that point in their life when they're like, I want that courage. I wanna be that brave, I wanna be that bold. And I think you're absolutely right. I think I can see that now. That's what's firing on all cylinders for them. Oh, I love that.

Are there any other fan questions? I think that was it. I think we got them. And I also want to be very mindful of your time, Gina. We're so grateful to you for coming in today to talk about this. You know, I will speak for myself. You were my boss on this show. And to hear you talk about your approach does not surprise me

and it reminds me of like what it felt like to have you on set and just take all my cues from like I want to do it like she does it like that's how this is supposed to go so thank you so so much for being here today we really appreciate it is there anything else that you want to say you've got a microphone and we're talking suits is there any other thing that that you have to say or you want to talk about? Or, you know, hopefully you'll come back and chat with us again sometime soon. But is there anything else? Just that it was a pleasure to spend time with you guys and that really

the greatest gift of suits was the to you. Love you so much. Really was. And thank you so much for like what you've said and the kindness. And that means a lot. You know, just trying to work and have a good time while you're working. And it was never my intention other than to continue to have a good time while we're working. So I'm glad that worked out. And thank you for co-parenting my children with me.

Thank you for co-parenting my children. I love you you for co-parenting. Journey. I love you. I love you, my friend. I love you, too. Thank you. I need to be driven across the country in the next couple of weeks. Can I get that dog driver's number? Absolutely. Absolutely. Except that they have to take pictures of you and send them to me.

OK, well, we want to thank you so much, Gina Torres, for joining us. What an amazing conversation. And just a reminder that we do want to hear from all of you out there. So if you have any questions, thoughts or ideas of other things you'd like to hear from us on the pod, please send your emails to suitsrewatch at gmail.com. If you want to record an audio clip of the question, go for it. Then we can play it on the show. Thank you guys so much for another great chat. Love you both and we'll see you next week. Love you. Love you. See you next week. Love you. Sidebar is produced by Sarah Rafferty, Patrick J. Adams and Sirius XM Media. Our senior producer is Kimmy Gregory. Our producer and researcher is Christian Schrader, our sound engineer is Alex Gonzalez, and our audio mix is by Eduardo Perez.

Our music is by Brendan Burns, and our executive producers are Cody Fischer and Colin Anderson.