Sidebar: A Suits Watch Podcast - Rules of the Game

Episode Date: January 28, 2025

This week Sarah and Patrick dig into the penultimate episode of season 1 – Rules of the Game – which, lucky for us, includes multiple scenes with everyone’s favorite chaotic duo! Director Mike Smith shares his memories of working with Patrick and Sarah, we debate the correct way to pronounce "mentor," and our hosts share advice they received from veteran actors early in their careers. And on that note, how do we feel about Mike and Donna’s acting skills?  It’s all leading up to the first season finale of Suits! Email us a voice memo of your questions about Suits at [e-mail]. We may use it on the show!Follow us on Instagram & TikTok - @suitssidebarGet access to all the podcasts you love, music channels and radio shows with the SiriusXM App! Get 3 months free using this show link: https://siriusxm.com/sidebar

How do we feel about the driverless cars right now? The Waymo's everywhere. I wanna ride one, I'm gonna ride one like this week. It's one of my goals. Could you buy it? Sorry, weird thought. But like, could I just buy a Waymo and then it just drives me everywhere

and I have a driver and I never have to drive again? I think, wouldn't you hate to not be in control of your car? Yeah, I do have a control issue, but like it's a theoretical thing. Thanks for pointing it out. This episode brought to you by BetterHelp. Let's get let's bottle this energy and create some podcasts. Go! Hi, everyone.

Welcome to Sidebar, a Suits Watch podcast. My name is Sarah Rafferty. And I'm Patrick Adams. We were both actors on the TV show Suits, but this is our first time actually watching the show. And this week we watch season one, episode 11, Rules of the Game. But before we dive in, how are you, Patrick? It's, uh, you know, listeners, you'll be listening to this a little bit later, but we are recording this at a pretty strange moment.

Yeah. Um, the, uh... We're here in Los Angeles. Yeah. And this is, you know, I think we both, I'm so grateful to have something to do other than be worried and thinking about what's happening right now. So that's the energy I want to have today. But yeah, I think it's important to acknowledge that we are

still in the aftermath of this really horrific event that has affected just so many people. Everyone in the city really, if you weren't directly affected, you are very close to someone who was and who continues to be affected. And it's going to be a long haul. And it's just a really strange time in the city, as I'm sure you agree. Yes. And I think, you know, maybe we'll be able to speak to it better later when we've had more time to process.

you know, maybe we'll be able to speak to it better later when we've had more time to process. One thing I can attempt to do though is to thank you and Troy and Patrick because during last week when we were going back and forth about our evacuations, you were always there for me to tether me to a place for a place to go to be with you and your family and your friends and your dogs and for me to bring my family and dogs and friends to join you and that was like a measure I just can't thank you enough for that. What we're talking about listener is is I wasn't actually evacuated, but we lost power for a significant amount of time, and so we decided to get out of our neighborhood,

and we had Sarah and her girls come and visit us and be with us while we waited for the power to come back and while it was safe. I think your house was a lot closer to danger than mine was at the time. I think what I just do want to say say though, is one of the things, there are so many obvious things that I was grateful for, but I love that, um, in the middle of the night, I can bring you the worst version of me, um, and you and Troyan and your friends and Kiki, uh, will throw your arms around me and mine. And, um, that is one of life's greatest blessings.

Yeah, well, you're welcome. And thank you for trusting me and thanks for coming and hanging out with us. And I'm really happy we're safe. And I'm really, I think we're both committed to, whatever the next steps are in the city. There's a lot of work. I love the city so much. Yeah, there's a lot of work. It love the city so much. Yeah, there's a lot of work.

It's been, while it has been a horrific time, it has brought out a side of the city that I haven't seen in a while, which is like people immediately pivoting to working so hard for each other, volunteering, giving everything that they can, opening up their doors. It's been kind of profound to see that. So I wish we didn't have to go through something like this

to see it, but I am happy that it's happening. Anyway, we don't wanna spend too much time on that, but listener, that is where we are coming from. And today we have a moment to escape and celebrate this. So we're gonna talk about Rules of the Game. Today we are breaking down season one, episode 11, Rules of the Game. This episode was written by John Cowan

and directed by Mike Smith, and it originally aired on Thursday, September 1st, 2011. And in this episode, Harvey's former mentor once- Mentor. Harvey's former mentor? Ment Mentor. Harvey's former mentor? Mentor. What is right? You'll see listener, mentor plays a big part in this,

but what do you guys say? I don't think there's right. There's not right or wrong, there just is. Yeah. Okay, so in this episode, Harvey's former mentor once help when his office is investigated, while Mike and Louis try to settle a mogul's estate. Some quick facts from our firm's best researcher. The shoot dates for July 25th to August 3rd, 2011.

Episode 106, Tricks of the Trade aired on July 28th while we were shooting. Mike Smith is tied with Anton Cropper for directing the most episodes of Suits at 17 episodes a piece. That is insane. Wow, I didn't realize that. I'm learning that in this moment. Over the weekend, we all attended us, the cast, the 2011 Summer TCA Press Tour. Patrick, Gabriel, Rick, Sarah, and Megan all attended the NBC All-Star TCA Party on August 1st at the SLS Hotel in Beverly Hills. You remember that party well.

I mean, it goes down in the record books of greatest parties you've ever been to. Tell us a story from that party. I felt so sick. I felt so sick. I did the photo booth and then I think I left. Wait, do you actually remember? Oh yeah, I totally remember.

God, I have no memory of this. And I remember being, I remember showing and being like, what do I wear on the red carpet? Because I don't want anybody to know. How pregnant are you? At this point? Yeah.

Right now? Right in this moment. Guys, we have a sidebar secret. What is the stage? How pregnant? Like, we are, what are we, it's July. August, think August 1st, 2011. When was she born?

January 26th. All right, you have five months to go, so you're four months pregnant. So I feel like an ass. You're not feeling good. No. Is that, you don't feel good when you're pregnant? Let me just get you pregnant real quick.

Let me text Troy and she never, oh no, she felt terrible all the time, right? That's right, okay, got it. Anyway, before we even start today, I reached out to Mike Smith to see if he had anything he wanted to say because this is his first episode. He's in fact in town prepping to direct Suits LA. So he sent a message that I have not listened to yet

so we could listen to it together live. So great. So he could be our opening statement. Yeah, here at my What do you have to say passing you the mic? Mike? Oh, rules of the game. Wow. Hi, it's Mike Smith. And just saying hi. Much love, Patrick and Sarah. I remember being very excited to try out this new show called Suits in Toronto and hoping that it went. And I got the second to last episode, which I was very excited about and meeting the cast and shooting and a couple of

specific scenes I do remember. I remember there's a scene where Mike is waiting to talk to Donna about Harvey at her desk and she is typing away ignoring him and it was just a fun little charming scene that then turned into a much more serious tone when Harvey approaches and Donna realizes she has to protect him and we told a lot without actually saying it overtly, which I always liked. And I remember having a lot of fun with Patrick

and Sarah while filming that. And I remember thinking, wow, this could really be a really fun show if it goes, because the actors do an amazing job of the combination of drama and comedy. I remember, God, I remember Patrick trying on his, putting on his tie in the mirror with Bond Lazenby. I think he and I joked about that. I do remember talking to Patrick about some notes in my script because I could see he perked up when I was trying to explain how I directed

and my blocking process. And then he and I spoke in that off season about maybe he would shadow me the next season, which in fact he did for 201. Actually, Sahro, I think of the entire cast was the only one I knew before we had crossed paths a year or two prior in New York on a Law and Order episode. So she was sort of the one person I knew before the show started. But the cast was great. It really

was an amazing experience. And I was really, really proud of that episode. And of all of all the episodes I did, I would say that one was definitely the first. All right. I hope that timing of that joke worked. I don't know if it translates on voice. Anyway, miss you guys, love you guys and hope to see you both soon. Yay. Mike Smith.

Wow. So good to hear his voice. We need to have him on sidebar more often. Like, thank you for that. That's perfect opening statements. Yes. I feel like we definitely have to have him on Sidebar more often. Like, thank you for that. That's perfect opening statements. Yes, I feel like we definitely have to have him. Um, maybe it would have been right to do it on this, but now that I see he's done 17 episodes, we got lots of time.

All the time in the world. Thank you, Mike, for that message. Thank you so much. Um, and everything he said is so right on. I mean, I don't think we even need to do a podcast. I think we could just to do a podcast. I think we could just play that. Thank you so much. This was fun.

Thank you. Wait, so how did he remember all that? He's pretty good. He remembers things. Mike Smith's background is as a first AD. He came up in the Dick Wolf world. So he's been, he works in, I think now in the Dick Wolf world as a director, but he came up for years and years and years as a first AD. So he's got that kind of like amazing brain. A first AD listener is the person on set who's basically in charge of, if the director's

like the creative visionary, the first AD is the one that's making sure everything happens. So it's a very important job. Sidebar, Patrick. Sidebar. Speaking of the Dick Wolf world. Yes. Tell me how Troian's show is. I cannot wait to watch it. I think it's launched this week. So good. She is so good. She's so good. She's such a good actor. It's like kind of intimidating. I know. I know. We're in our lives, like raising babies and making pancakes and trying to get our kids dressed.

And then I watch the show and it's like, holy God, like I'm married to like such a powerhouse. She's amazing on the show. The show is called On Call, yes, it's on Amazon. It's a Dick Wolf show, a half hour cop show. She plays this sort of training police officer. But I'm getting all these text messages and messages thinking I'm about to get compliments, but I'm flooded with compliments about my wife and how amazing she is.

So everyone's absolutely right. She's incredible. We hope you watch the show. If you're out there, check it out on Call on Amazon. And we're excited to have her on this eventually too. Can't wait. Okay, so let's dive into this episode. So we open and Jenny is watching Mike get ready for work

in his apartment. You guys have a little run about Bond here. Bond moment. Just a quick question, does your friend Sarah know anything about Bond films? Do you know anything about Bond? Do you know anything about Bond films? Do I know?

No, do you think your friend Sarah? I think you know nothing about James Bond films. Who is Lazenby? George Lazenby. He played James Bond in one film. He was only one film. When ish? Who was he sandwiched between as Bond's?

And was he a good Bond? And why only one? Well, I think maybe he was not a beloved Bond. I have never heard that name before. You've never heard of George Lazenby? Never. But I bet there's things that I've heard of that you haven't. When we're done with suits, can we do a Bond rewatch?

Okay. Kimmy, write that one down. Add it to the list. So I have a quibble. Right off the bat. Go. I'm sorry. It's a fashion police moment for me. I get it. Well, see, this is stuff I don't know anything about, so we'll just pivot right into this. I get this. I'm sorry. Why? It's a fashion police moment for me. Well see, this is stuff I don't know anything about, so we'll just pivot right into this. I get this, I get this.

I get that women on the TV shows are always wearing the man's business shirt. Oh, you don't like this? We've already seen this season, Scotty be in a shirt or do that, and we're gonna see it a lot again, and we've seen it a lot on TV, and honestly, I don't get it.

I just don't get it. I've never. Have you ever worn a man's shirt in the morning? Not really, it's not, I mean, maybe a t-shirt. Don't lie to me. Don't you lie to me. I wear nothing in the morning. Oh damn.

You have worn in the past, you have worn, Santu gets dressed up, he has nice shirts, you've never put on a dress shirt in the morning? No, I mean, I don't know. I can't remember that far back. It was a long time ago, my friend. Let me go back to 1994. Nineteen. I wore some roller blades in 94.

Here's the thing. I totally get it. It's very male gaze-y. I don't get the... I don't think it's that cute. Like, I feel like she would be in an old t-shirt of yours that has like a band on it. I don't know. It suits though, you know? Yes, I agree, I 100% agree, yes. She looks amazing.

I have a bigger, I don't mind it because maybe I'm a man and it's a male gaze and I'm like, oh, that's cute and maybe there's something sort of, I don't know. Maybe it's complicated. The hair is what gets me in TV shows when people have like the perfect, because before I did a TV show, I don't think I understood what went into making a woman's hair look the way her hair looks in the scene. That's like time. That takes

an hour and a half in a makeup chair and so when I see that on TV now and I see someone who's just woken up and I know they've been in a makeup chair for an hour and a half, that's where it takes me out of it. Yeah, so female listeners do not be gaslit by suits. Everybody who is just waking up on suits, whose female has had an hour and a half blowout ironing and some fake lashes put on and some lip gloss, so do not think that you're supposed to wake up like that.

And so hair specifically too, like makeup's one thing because I guess we're on TV and everybody has makeup, but also the hair is so perfect. Yeah, so that being said, when I have to wake up on TV, I wanna look like that. There you go. See, that's what happens. Because you get to work,

and you're like, I'm not gonna be that person, and then you're like, no, no, no, I don't, I wanna look amazing. Also, the producers, but it's not the, the producers demand it, too. There's not a question. You don't get to show up and be like, hey, do you wanna look like a mess today,

or a perfect, you go and you get the makeup and do it. It's a much bigger conversation though too, which we won't get into today, but like it is, I have been asked in very serious conversations about like, how we all looked on suits and is that right? And what does that mean? And I was like, this is a much bigger question for society

because one of the things that we need to get the ratings and get the become a beloved character is to also consider how everybody looks. It's a visual medium. Well there's a but there's other cultures you can watch British TV and there it's not I don't think there's a two and a half hour blowout all the time. It's a different kind of show. This show was about being slick and that sort of thing and we do have grittier stuff here now, but I'm just saying.

Nope, I agree. Okay, but I think what's important in this scene is that this is where Jenny says that she wants to have a double date with Rachel. Right, very important, yes. Right when Mike is on his way to work. So. It's not gonna go well.

I can just tell that's not a good idea. Maybe, yeah. Maybe because I shot it already and I know, but as a viewer that this is not great. So Mike. Is she and why is she doing it? What is she doing? I mean she knows it's not gonna. This is a real test. I don't like it in relationships when people are playing games and they're both playing games here. I don't like it. As I know it's good. It's good television. It's dramatic but I'm like come on guys, people are not saying what they feel.

Well, since the guy who plays Mike, who's saying he's didn't just kiss Rachel, there's nothing going on. I know, I know, I'm frustrated. Okay, then you're getting past. Frustrated with myself. Anyway, Mike pulls up in a taxi to meet Harvey, and they meet Cameron Dennis, the district attorney.

So this is a great intro to a great character that we're gonna see for 10 whole episodes and is played by the great Gary Cole. So Gabriel, look, there's a couple of Taurus Awards that I'm gonna have to give out, but today. You're gonna give Gabriel a Taurus Award in this episode, in this scene? Oh wow, this is great.

Let's get into it. Okay, wait, wait, wait. Is it because he gets out of the cab and he does a little swagger? Well, he's got some swaggity-waggity, but, like, he's got some sunglasses on and he does some good sunglasses work. I feel like his sunglasses work in those moments

with Cameron Dennis in this scene. He's doing a lot of strong... Obsolve Hollywood of all the David Caruso sins. Hold on, I'm gonna do some. Hold on. Wait a second. Listen to what I said. It absolves Hollywood of all of David Caruso's sunglasses since. Gabriel pulled it off better. He's doing a lot of sunglasses. Sorry David Caruso.

Look, it's hard to work with sunglasses in television. Like you think, oh I'm going to wear sunglasses in this scene. But then when a camera's pointed at you, you're like, I'm wearing sunglasses. I'm wearing sunglasses. I'm wearing sunglasses. I need to take off sunglasses. And so you end up making a meal of a thing that in real life, you just take them on and off. You don't think about it. Did you think he made a meal? I don't think he made a meal.

I think he did a James Bond. Pull it up. I think he looked like James Bond doing it. Pull it up, show the receipts. I thought it was a James Bond. No, no, no, no, you don't actually have to pull it up. But if you do, he makes. He deserved it.

I mean, he deserved to make it. When he puts them on, when he gets out of the car and he puts them on, there's a meal made. And when he takes them off, there's a meal made. He earned it, is what I mean. And I'm saying that you can't not make a meal of it when you have, it's so hard for me at least, to like play sunglasses, and he's playing sunglasses.

Gabriel Mock for James Bond. Yep, yeah, good call. I mean, for sure, the American Bond. He did play a superhero, and I feel like Gabriel Mock for James Bond, and you for like, I think you should be like on the next Taylor Sheridan. No, Q. Show.

See what you did. That reminds me of when they were trying to cast Christian Grey though. When Patrick's name was in the hat in public for maybe being Christian Grey. Do you guys remember that? I don't remember that. It was.

50 Shades of Grey? Yeah. Oh my God, that I would have never been able to watch. Would you have been able to do all that? I haven't watched actually, whatever, 29 Shades of Grey. There could not be a worse person. That would have never been able to watch. Would you have been able to do all that? I haven't watched actually, whatever, 29 Shades of Grey. There could not be a worse person, that would have been.

Oh, we loved it at USA. Wait a second. The worst, the worst. Would she, I don't wanna. There would never be a more uncomfortable actor on set. But accessing your sexuality while you're being filmed, I mean, I guess we can't really put this on here, but like, oh my goodness. Yeah, it's really hard. I mean, I guess. It't really put this on here, but like, oh my goodness.

I mean, I guess. It's really hard. I've done a lot of stuff. Only fans, but beyond only fans. And it's always awful, and I never feel comfortable. I definitely don't feel sexy. Anyway, we digress. Let's talk about feeling sexy.

Let's talk about feeling sexy. Welcome to the menopause, Matt. Oh, gosh. Anyway, Gary Cole's in this. Feeling 50 and sexy. Welcome to the menopause, Matt. God. Anyway, Gary Cole's in this. Feeling 50 and sexy. We love Gary Cole. It's great to see him.

I actually, the pilot that I shot with Megan that I've talked about, Gary Cole was in it. He played my dad. And so I'd worked with Gary before, loved working with Gary. First conversation I ever had with Gary was with a young actor, and I was like so excited and I knew who Gary Cole was too. And I was like, hey, so how are you feeling?

Like so cool, right? Getting to do this, like we're doing a pilot. Isn't this great? I remember like we're outside the trailers and he was just like, oh no, no, no. It wasn't that he wasn't excited. He was like, I've done a thousand of these. Like he's like, I don't get, I don't, he's like,

good, yeah, yeah, be excited. I don't do it, I don't do it, like excited. He was just like I just, we just do the job. Yes. Such a pro. Like he's such a pro, shows up. He's like I don't buy into the like this is a thing and it's going to be great or this is not, like he's like I just show up and do my job and we'll see what happens. And that pilot was a total disaster. And so I went up and then way down and I always thought of Gary Cold right in the middle. Do his job, go home. I had an interesting moment like that

when I did a play reading of a new play with Ted Danson and Mary Steenburgen and played one of their kids in it. And I remember when we were about to do the first performance of it, I loved this about Ted Danson. He like came over to me and he put his arm around me. And of course I was like, it's really, he like, if I don't see you again,

like it was such an honor. Oh my gosh. And he was like, we get to do this. We got to do this. And now I know you. And this was great. And he was like wagging his tail just like I was inside. And it was the sweetest thing.

Like this, he was just being, I can't explain it. Like Ted Danson was saying that to me. I was like, but you're Ted Danson, I know you, bro. Like this is, it was just this theater kid thing. I guess this is sort of the opposite with Gary Cole where I was like, come on, Gary, this is great. We get to do it. And Gary was like, we're just doing our job.

We're just doing our job. What I did wasn't TV, it was like a theater kid thing. That's what you needed. And this is what I needed in this. Look at that. It was like calm down. You're good. You're gonna be great.

Just calm down. Like don't, don't. Don't put all this into it. Don't put all your eggs in this basket. And Ted Danson was like, put, wag your tail as hard as you can right now because this is joyful. Well it's a play reading too.

This was like, yeah, we weren't getting paid or whatever. It was a theater camp. When you're doing a pilot, you're like, what is gonna come of this? or whatever. It was, it was a theater camp. When you're doing a pilot, you're like, what is gonna come of this? Is this gonna make us? What's the result? And it didn't, did not make us.

Mike finds Rachel chatting with Kyle at Pearson Hardman. Once they are alone, Mike proposes the double date. We last saw Ben Hollingsworth in the mock trial episode. Yes, we see Ben Hollingsworth. And then this is the scene that leads into finding out that Harvey does not have ADA on his bio, but we do get an adorable photo of Gabriel who is actually in a skinny tie. Don't worry, we will be posting that photo

to our socials every week for the next three years. I remember his parents had to send it, I think, and I think it was like his graduation from college. How did he feel about it? I mean, it's a great photo. It's a funny, great photo of him. He looks so great. It's so cute.

So we do find out, yes, you're right, in this scene that he was an assistant district attorney. Well, I guess we found out in the scene before when Gary Cole told us, but yes, this was a secret. We did not know that he worked, right? We didn't know, we didn't know that he worked as an assistant district attorney. We didn't know anything about Cameron Dennis.

So we're learning new things about Harvey. Yeah. Anyway, we're into act one. Yes, we are, and Jessica presents our case of the week. A long time client has died. Harvey and Louis have to work out the will between the clients feuding daughters. Mm-hmm.

What? What's going on? Do you wanna start? What is going on here? This is a great scene. Fantastic scene. There's so much goodness to talk about. I'm gonna guess that Erin wasn't into Jessica's look

in this scene and that is why at later dates we had to make some adjustments in our looks. I think she- But this look is- She looks incredible. She looks incredible because Gina could not look not incredible. It's a great look. But it is a different look.

The thing that I had a tough time with is the ring, which looks like a prop from Napoleon or something. It's so big and it's so present. And as soon as it's up under her face, I'm not hearing anything, anybody saying anymore. I just have nothing but questions about the ring. I wanna know what's inside of it. I wanna know how many spirits are kept in there.

How you unlock the curse. I wanna know everything that's going on with this rig. Well, I think this triggered in me an idea of why we started to get a lot of notes around these things. I think we had a lot of notes all along when we were building something and then we're still at the place where we're trying new things.

And I do remember in later episodes, any kind of statement jewelry for me was taken away. Like- Statement jewelry. See, this is great. This is an education. Oh. I mean, I just wouldn't know to call it statement jewelry.

Hey babe, what else do you want me to educate you about? Oh, we'll offline that. It's a good thing to note the ring, the great ring of rules of the game. So at the end of this scene, Rick... Rick and Gabriel have some incredible banter. And of course I went immediately to the script, because yes, Rick...

was improv-ing. Can we pull up the moment where he talks about shining shoes? So you each get a sister. You think pitting us against each other is fair? To Lewis's client? Please, dividing financial assets. You couldn't shine my shoes. So you each get a sister. You think pitting us against each other is fair to Lewis's client? Please, dividing financial assets? You couldn't shine my shoes. Someone should. Well actually I personally shine my own shoes so up there you go. Lucky them. How come you always ask Donna? Donna, by the way, those are really nice shoes that Lewis has on. Gentlemen. All of that. Look at Gabriel's

face. You know that was so funny because Gabriel was like, going to laugh, so I better just go back to the document. Yeah, you can't. But also, like, I can't. I'm going to laugh, and I can't top it. Like, I can't stay in this long enough. Cannot be topped. You can't outgun Rick Hoffman when he's on a terror. And Rick Hoffman does the thing where he often is like,

yeah, well, you know, there was a time where we did, you know, it's like almost like the band camp, that time at band camp, that time at band camp. He's so funny with that. We do it all the time. So I think this is gonna get like, he won't break too.

Like we haven't talked about that, but like, you know, Rick is a great, he's very funny, obviously he's a great improver and he just won't break. Like he'll go, like if you go back and forth. Remember that time with Donna, when she shined your shoes and you got the splidges on the bottom of your.

You'll keep doing it. And then you're like, I can't keep going. Oh, so anyway, great. Yep, great scene. Harvey and Mike meet Kelsey, played by Alex Paxton Beasley while Lewis meets with Maddie, played by Megan Fallenbach. Tell me about the thing you noticed about Rick's performance right here.

Oh yeah, when he's standing outside the office. Rick does this thing with his pink. You've seen it before. You know exactly what I'm talking about when you see it, where he just sort of tenderly grabs the tip of his pinky. That's so brilliant. And he does it a lot, and I'm curious to track where he does it because I feel like it's a very specific,

something's going on for Louis Lit whenever he does that. Sort of like, he's been called on something, he's like at a plane, I don't know, there's being, he's like at a, I don't know. There's just, it's only at a specific time he'll do it, but he'll do it quite a bit. And it always makes you laugh and it makes me laugh. But it's also Lewis. It's not Rick at all.

I've never seen Rick do that in real life. But I will say the thing that he did at the end of that scene where he says, and when Donna shines your shoes or whatever, I hear Rick do a lot. Like that makes us laugh when we're hanging out with Rick. But this is definitely a Lewis character trait that never, never comes up.

It's so good. Here we go. Mike asks Donna about Harvey's time working at the DA's office. Together again. Wow. Together forever. Sorry, that's very spontaneous.

I don't even know what song that is. What is that? That's from Annie. You are a musical theater. We're together again. Together forever. Then what? Da da da da.

Ba da da da da. It's a real Hannigan vibe. Ba da da da da. Ba da da da da. You should play Miss Hannigan. Nobody should play Miss Hannigan. Carol Burnett played Miss Hannigan. Nobody should play Miss Hannigan. Carol Burnett played Miss Hannigan. It is done.

Or Annie, but older. Like a geriatric Annie. We need a sequel. Anyway, I'd love to see us together. I'd love when we get scenes together. We should have a sound. We need a sound effect when we get a scene together. You're those girls, iconic moments, so funny.

But for me, it's the type, which I don't, I remember those girls actually this line, but I forgot that you're continuing to type as you turn to say it. Am I? You didn't notice that? Well, my question is, is she actually typing or is it just to be, is Donna being funny?

Oh, so this is the scene that Mike was talking about. Yeah. And what are we talking about? The Price Sisters. Those girls. Type, type, type, type. I wonder if you were typing or did they put that sound effect in?

Like, I think you were continuing to type. I was continuing to type out of like nervousness. It also has a stage direction that she's typing when you interrupt her and that she doesn't stop. Like out of kind of rudeness, like it's not a good time for me. But then those girls wasn't in there. So it's not in the script.

Improv. Yeah, I loved that it was improv. Louis visits Harvey's office to work out the, here we go, rules of the game. Wow, that was, I was like, are we there yet? Yes. This is a great scene. This might be one of my favorite scenes of the episode.

It's fun to watch Gabriel and Rick or so when they're cooking, so good. There's a great little section right at the top of this scene where you walk in, you say, Her Majesty's here to see you. Louis says, I heard that. You say, you were meant to. Harvey says, your highness.

And it's perfection, perfect. And it's delivered perfectly. It's very natural. It's very quick. It's just like, it's like a master class in timing. And you can see other moments in our show where we like try and replicate that and it doesn't work. And I can't figure out why when it doesn't work sometimes. Let's look at it real quick. That's why you better be three steps ahead of him because I can guarantee you Lewis will be

two steps ahead of you. Speak of the devil, Her Majesty's here to see you. I heard that. You were meant to. Gentlemen, Your Highness. OK, you know what? So good. Quick.

I think the editor really helps with that. But you know what I think makes that work? It's on an entrance. It's moving. Everybody's moving. Yeah. So there's just, like, the energy of coming into the room, all of that happening makes it kind of thrown away,

getting to the next thing. And it just works perfectly like a little play. Really funny. So your name is on one of those balls. Oh yeah, when he holds up the baseball, do we think he's intentionally holding it up as my signature, like very clearly? I saw that. Holding it.

Patrick J. Adams. Yeah. Do you have a J in your signature? My signature's a mess. It's an unholy mess. It should be different all the time for security reasons. Yeah, this is no longer my signature to be very clear. Yeah.

We're gonna cut this part. No, no, no, but it's, it didn't make, I paused. I paused. I was like, there I am. No, no, no, but it's, it didn't make, I paused, I paused. I was like, there I am, look, there I am. My character finds his way to that weird recliner seat. We used to have like a joke whenever we were doing blocking, who could get into that seat, like find a way to make it look organic

because it's such a ridiculous chair. It's a restoration hardware, shes, that has this like cool shape where your, the back of your knees are kind of supported and your butt goes down. It's like one of those gravity chairs or whatever. And it's a great chair, but it's not something that in the context of an office, it doesn't make sense. Like, it looks great, but you could never, like you would never walk into that room and find Harvey on his giant leather chaise reading a document. It would not look right. And so we just are always trying to find ways to get into it. I think I succeeded in this.

Like it doesn't draw too much attention to itself. You did. I loved that shirt and I feel like I remember that it was St. John. This is your shirt that you're wearing? Yeah. It's like this olive green ruffly action. You've got some moments in this.

You got some dark green moments in this I got one coming up Oh big time. Let's go then. So we're into act two Harvey arrives. Let's do it together at the same time go hard Harvey arrives to meet Cameron runs into New York assistant attorney general Alexandra leads They're building a case against Cameron. They want Harvey's help. Alexandra reveals that they will, they will subpoena Harvey. Oh wow, Alexandra Leeds played by Alicia Coppola.

She's great. Oh my God, she's crushing it. So in this scene, we find out that Cameron systematically buried evidence to get convictions. This is really such a great setup for Gary playing the right amount of slickness and God complex and smartness, but also curiosity because he's so committed to the fact that he believes that he's doing the right thing.

Right. I think it's really interesting that he's elevated, just like, blocking-wise, he's on the second floor. Like, when they walk into this restaurant, he's like a, it's almost like a god. He's got this, like, he's sitting high. Yeah. Harvey's looking up to him. So he might.

Little detail. Oh, that's so interesting. And so Harvey here says, when push comes to shove, I won't perjure myself, not even for you. So there's this loyalty thing. And I'm curious, why is he so loyal to this guy? What is this about? Where do we find out?

Well, yeah, but it's Harvey's thing too, don't you think? Like, with the people who brought him up, he's fiercely loyal. I mean, I guess we've only seen it in Jessica, but we see it in Jessica. Like I would, he would never turn on her. Even if she had done something wrong, he wouldn't.

But he's turned on her by hiring Mike. Right, which is the conflict of this episode. Which is what Kena talked about too. Yeah. Like. He's done this horrible thing. We didn't necessarily talk enough about how the whole thing What a huge betrayal it was for Jessica that you existed, right?

I think he believes I mean I'd be great to have a conversation with Gabriel about it But the impression I get is that he would probably believe we'll figure it out. We'll get you legit You know like like all great lies. I will Sort it out. no one will get hurt. Right. Right? Like it will figure out a way to make it good that no one gets hurt. Again, you haven't seen Dear Robin Hansen.

No. But I have lied. Oh, you have? Just once. What happened? Lying, it's not good, turns out. Doesn't work. I just got hot.

You did? Were you triggered? No. I've lied all the time. Doesn't work. I just got hot. You did? Were you triggered? No, no, no, I've lied all the time. You've never lied. I'm perfect. You've lied. But it feels like you were pregnant with a big story.

No, no, no, there's no actual great story. I wish there were, but I mean, yeah, I've lied a ton in my life and it never works out. But you do it, oftentimes, it's usually selfish as well, but you're like, I can figure it out, I'll solve it. So I think he probably figures he could get out of it. Much like maybe Cameron felt, but like, this is real deal, like they're dealing with some pretty horrible situations

where people are getting hurt. Are you talking about white lies for yourself? Like these, you didn't, you haven't done this, Cameron. Well, I haven't lied to put someone in prison for the rest of their life. No, that's a different thing. Except that one time. Except that one time.

Except that one time. Kiki, thanks for finding there is a deleted scene, which I'm glad I'm not crazy, because I thought I remembered shooting a scene that I wasn't seeing in this episode. Mike visits the newspaper, Nothing But the Truth with Kelsey. It was an expensive scene to cut because it was a huge production design

and it did not make it into the episode. Donna brings Harvey the subpoena to testify against Cameron. Harvey asks Donna, what would she do? Great song, Charles Bradley, the world is going up in flames. And it has a very, very suitsy vibe that gives me all the suits feels.

So I remember shooting the scene and I remember really, really loving this because it made me very curious about, you know, the depth of their history and the darkness that's in there. I hadn't really thought about the darkness of the past that they had shared. And I'm sure I talked about this like extensively

with my coach, Warner. Remember we talked about how we were good kids and very prepared. Donna has very strong feelings about Cameron and that she wants him to just go down and that she would dance when he did that. And I think we really discovered that Donna, it really is Harvey's moral compass.

And in some ways, you really see here that she's set up, and this is a very nerdy thing to say. Are you ready? I think it's nerdier than Lassie. She's kind of like the chorus was in Greek tragedy. She's kind of like, she's kind of like, wait, hold the laughter. She's kind of like, she's kind of like, wait, hold the laughter. She's kind of like, she's kind of like the fool in Shakespeare. She's kind of like, you know, do it.

No, it's like that. It's like that. I'm just here to trigger you. Do it. Say it. No, I couldn't agree more. Come on, do it. No, I couldn't agree more. I'm setting up the conflict, bro. I think you make a lot of really good points. Come on, do it! No, I couldn't agree more. I'm setting up the conflict, bro. I think you make a lot of really good points. Come on! No, it's a lot like the fool in the court, the gesture. I tried to do a thing. The chorus, the Greek chorus. I tried to set you up for it. for it.

No, I think you make a lot of really, really good points. Anyway, Donna really is Harvey's moral compass here. And I was really grateful for this beautiful soft light for the DP. You win the Toreas award for it. I'm just gonna come out and say it in this scene, like you're a hundred percent right about this scene, it's a beautiful scene, because we're seeing the history

and the depth of your history with Harvey that you've been to places with him that are dark. You've seen him face the reality of a mentor and you guys are not on the same page about who that guy was. I think that's really interesting. You also look so good in the scene. You look so good. It's the vibe and when you said you were reminding me that you were pregnant, I don't know maybe there there's just like a glow but you are wearing that outfit I love the lighting I've already said that I love the lighting in the office when it's nighttime when it's is it night in the No, is it it's but it's but it's afternoon. It's evening that you can tell cuz that harsh lights not coming in through the window Yes. Yes. So it's like we're going later into the day and

You just look like a billion dollars. So you win the Taurus Award for me in this episode, I think in this scene. What's my prize? That hat on your head. You are the lucky winner of a sidebar baseball cap. I'm gonna need $12 for that. And then the most important part of

this scene of this whole episode is Gabriel is just holding his balls the whole time. Oh. What's with the balls? Yeah. I guess. Two scenes in a row now. I so that's that was your takeaway? That's what's you that's what is that your closing statement? I'm a child today. Emotional support balls is what they are. Emotional support balls. It's true, because it's when he's unsure. When Harvey doesn't know what's going on. That's interesting.

And if they open, he's really holding that ball at ball level at the beginning of the scene. I'm a child. I'm a four-year-old today. But it's a really interesting point, though, that it is when he's noodling with something. If you have a basketball, I don't care about stuff like this. If you have a basketball that's signed by like all the greats, do you touch it?

You do not touch that ball, right? Sometimes they're in glass. Oh, oh, oh, look, we're getting the answer behind you. You don't touch it. You would never touch it. Is that a power play though? If you're somebody who does, if you're like, I don't care. I'm gonna hold this ball. Does that make you like cooler? I can get another one. Or does it make you like- Because I'm friends with these guys.

Yeah, it feels like, I don't know, I'm not a memorabilia guy, but it feels like you would be careful not to be grabbing them balls. Yeah. Mike and Rachel discussed their upcoming double date and they are both nervous. Love starting a scene with just some casual legal book browsing from the law library. Absolutely. Just my favorite. It's so, it's a, uh, I've talked to a lot of lawyers.

It happens all the time in law firms. You're constantly referencing the books. Is there a library still in a law firm? Yeah, yeah, there's always a library where you do most of your kissing and you're constantly referencing those books. Yeah, how do we feel about this scene? I don't know. It's what it is. It's a bad idea for these two to go to dinner.

We keep repeating, like, you kissed me. Do you remember we kissed? Do you remember saying it all the time? Yeah, I have some things, I think as we get farther into this episode, I have some stuff to say about that. Yeah, it's a tough call. This is tough for Rachel because she's like... I'm feeling like Rachel needs more development.

Because if you don't get enough of what's going on on her side of the table, it looks... It's not fair. Not kind. Right? And she is kind. This character is deeply kind and they care about each other. So, but it, because you're right, the lack of development, maybe. All right. Mike brings an offer to Louis in order to settle the will, but no dice, Louis refuses to negotiate with Mike.

Oh, I love this scene. So you guys are jamming in this scene. You're in lockstep. This is an incredible scene. It's so beautifully played. It's so well edited. And I am giving Rick the Torres Award for being very dashing in this scene.

He's got a tie on that is so sharp and it's night and he's lit so well and he's just got that confidence. He just looks. The light's good. His light's really good. It's that nighttime light, I'm telling you, it looks amazing. Yeah, that's a good, that's your Taurus Award.

It's a good second place for me. You're still winning the award for me in this episode. Jessica questions Harvey about why he left the DA's office. We learned that Jessica originally sent Harvey to learn under Cameron, and we also learned that Cameron was burying evidence in cases. Go. Cook, you've got stuff here.

Okay, so I have been sitting over here. I've been thinking, Harvey needs to just turn him in, right? And then the light bulb goes off for me in this scene. And? As to the very simple fact why he can't, which I cannot believe I haven't gotten sooner. And? Which is sort of embarrassing.

Go. Which is. Cook. That. Yes. Karma's a bitch, bro. Like, you cannot be turning people in people in like you could turn him in later He could turn Jessica in like everybody can't be turning on each other right? He is doing an illegal thing, right?

You he is your mentor. You're saying can't turn in his mentor. That is some bad karma You're saying he's struggling to judge his mentor and turn him in when he himself is doing an illegal thing. Thank you for saying that. Is that what you're saying? Yes, keep that part. Thank you for that, yes. But very different illegal things.

Very different illegal things. But here's why I don't think I got it so fast. Because I had to watch a scene very many times because I was really, really distracted by the fact that I don't know, maybe I've been pronouncing the word mentor incorrectly for a very long time. It may be a potato potata. You mean mentor?

See, I don't know. I don't know what the correct pronunciation is. There's something. Potato potato, because he has to say it a few times. So I did watch it a few times and then it sunk in, which is good. It sunk in.

But also Gabriel, in this episode, one time in a scene with you has the word mentor and he says mentor, and then here it's mentor, and I think somebody told him to change it. You can see the actor. That's true, you can see the actor maybe taking a note rather than it being organic. And I did it in a later scene,

because I say, how was dinner with the Antichrist? I say Antichrist. What do you say? I don't speak that word. Okay. I'm sorry if it's an offensive word. No, Antichrist. I say Antichrist. Antichrist, right. What is the option? And they had me do Antichrist.

Say it again? Antichrist. That sounds like I'm in New York. It's the Antichrist. But it's like softer on... I gotta play stickball. I gotta go play stickball with the Antichrist? That sounds like I'm in New York, it's the Antichrist. But it's like softer on- I gotta play stickball, I gotta go play stickball with the Antichrist? There you go.

But it's not anti-Christ, it's not Antichrist. Antichrist. Or Antichrist, it's Antichrist. No it's not. Whoever told you that's wrong, let's call them right now. But that's what happened to me on this. I don't know what it was, but I was like, that's not how I say that word.

And sometimes it's bumping their ear from production or from direction or from writing. And they're like, can you change it? And as soon as someone asks you to say it, it's so hard to do. Because all you're thinking about is saying, it's like an elephant in the room. But the acting of this scene is so good.

The build between Gina and Gabriel is so good. So I am glad that I watched it three or four times. It's a great episode for Harvey. We're just getting a side of him we haven't got. We're really seeing this guy wrestle with a version of himself. You know, like Cameron taught him everything he knows. Cameron's Star Wars reference, ready, Palpatine?

Oh yeah, totally. Right? Yeah. Emperor, he's like Emperor Palpatine. Oh my god. You know what I'm saying? Totally. Exactly. He's the dark he's a dark. We had a marketing meeting where we learned that 68% of our listeners are women and women listen to Star Wars 2. Careful. You. God I'm gonna get cancelled today. I'm getting cancelled today. He's, Cameron Dennis is like a virgin of Harvey, like Harvey could have gone in that direction. They're very similar. Totally! He's like the dark version of

what Harvey could become with his value system, his obsession with winning no matter what. All these things. That is Cameron Dennis and Harvey is wrestling with the fact that the person he learned some of his fundamental traits from could potentially be worse than he thought he was and that he played a role in allowing him to get away with it for so long. And you hear Donna say you could have gone down a dark path and I would not have gone with you. Yeah yeah of course. We've heard her say that. Like Palpatine. Like, like I was saying you guys earlier before we came in here, it's exactly like Palpatine. Yeah, I'm glad we're all on the same page.

Act 3, Mike and Jenny are on a double date with Rachel and Kyle. Things end poorly when Kyle gets a little too handsy with Rachel. I want to punch Kyle in the face. I just need to punch Kyle in the face. That's a testament to Hollingsworth performance. He's embracing it because you're right. I think we all want to punch him in the face. So then Jenny confronts Mike about Rachel out on the sidewalk and she says that he needs to decide what he wants.

And I love this. I love a boundary, Jenny. I just love to see a self-respecting gal. You can't have both, Sarah. You can't have both. She's so good. She's so good. Anyway, Alexandra deposes Harvey

while Jessica represents him. OK, I loved this scene in that courtroom because watching Jessica have Harvey's back and watching him know it is so great. And I've got to shout out Alicia. She's so great in this scene. She's so good in this scene. And do you have a fashion police moment here?

Yeah, I was gonna say nothing because I feel bad for commenting on how everybody looks, but screw it, I think she looks like a million dollars in this scene and in that dress. I think she looks fantastic. So guess what that dress is made out of? What?

Jersey. Jersey, and Jersey is a material. That you learned about in a previous podcast. Right, and it's, you make dresses out of it. And it's something you continue to say that you like and I just want to... Oh I've done, oh right we've had this before right. Yeah. Hi it's I'm Sarah Rafferty it's nice to meet you. I do a podcast with you. I don't know if you know. I want to buy some jersey. Are there, can you men wear jersey? Um so you're not gonna like

jersey because the reason I think you like Jersey because I sweat too much I'm a sweater. I think you like the Jersey Clothing because of the way it falls because it clings bro That's pretty good, right Anyway, we're moving along Harvey gets an update from Mike on the settlement. Mike thinks he has the upper hand on Lewis, but it's short-lived. Lewis keeps outmaneuvering him. Jessica interrupts.

Harvey's in trouble. Oh, you have a moment in here that I just love when you're talking about the Chinese wall. Thingy. Yeah, that was good. That was good. So also there's a reference here to Captain and Tenille. Can you sing me some Captain and Tenille?

I had the, what I wanted to do was go listen to a bunch of Captain and Tenille so I could surprise you because I saw this in the notes and I didn't because I want to be honest, I always want to be honest with you. I don't know a single Captain and Tenille song. I'm not very musical, music literate, but I'd love to take- This is Yacht Rock. Do you know Captain and Tenille? I know this is generational. Captain and Tenille? Captain and Tenille?

Captain and Tenille? Captain and Tenille? Captain and Tenille? Sing a song. Nobody here. Just give me a couple of bars. No, no. Yeah.

I know the name. Muskrat Susie, muskrat Sam. Wait, dude, what song called Muskrats? Muskrats can, and they whirl, and they twirl, and they tango, it must be Muskrats can and they whirl and they twirl and they tango it must be muskrat love There's a song called There's a song called muskrat love. It's the third most popular look how many hits it had. I know this song

Yeah, this song is called muskrat love. No, no, this is the most popular Love will keep us together This is like our theme song. Can we do a Halloween? Can we be Captain and Tenille for Halloween? Can we do a Halloween thing? Yeah. Thank you for that Captain and Tenille.

This podcast brought to you by Captain and Tenille. Jessica takes Harvey to meet Alexandra. Harvey still refuses to testify. So Alexandra reveals Cameron tampered with one of Harvey's cases as well. She threatens to have Harvey disbarred. So weird to see Harvey snap at Jessica. He kind of snaps her in the scene. Yeah, he does.

Act four, Donna finds Mike fighting with the fax machine, helps him fax an offer for the tabloid. Donna and Mike walk away, smiling. Louis follows behind shortly, having clearly listened in. He falls for their ruse. What do you remember about this scene? We're together again. We're together again.

Do you remember this? Do you remember shooting the scene? Sort of. Oh, sort of? Sort of. Do you, so you don't remember me being a total actor-y actor and trying to figure out my little move with the thing?

My little like four pot, what? What did you call it? Your latsing. I'm sorry, say that one more time. Is that, is this the correct use of the word? Is this a lot-say? I actually don't know. Remember, I'm not an expert. I just throw down words as if I know what I'm saying.

Speaking as the chorus of the show. I tried it. We're cutting it, Kimmy, but Kimmy always tells me to try it and I was trying it to see. I love how you think that gets cut. I wanted you to get so mad. 100%. I was like, I wanna see if it gets so mad.

I will quit the podcast if that gets cut. No, you will not. Yes, I will. I'm already doing all my notes here. What I'm taking with this, I love seeing us together, we're having fun, we're such good actors. When you find out at the end

that not that you and I are such good actors, Mike and Donna are good actors. I didn't realize, we get to the end, I'm like, oh, that was acting. I didn't even realize it until later, and then I had to go back to watch the scene. Can you believe I didn't even remember that that's a whole show that they put on for Lewis?

Even though you had that little look at the end of the scene? Well, it was the look that made me kind of go, wait, what's happening here? But then I went back because I realized, think about it, Mike and Donna are close enough that, or Mike is kind enough to Donna to indulge her in being like, okay, I'm gonna walk in and I'm gonna tell you I'm the fax whisperer.

So you have to still pretend you can't do it, be super frustrated, no, be more frustrated. Can you give me one where you're more frustrated? Right, right. So that I can do this move that I've worked out, this little dance number that I have with the fax machine. I mean, she, it's her moment, right? She feels like it's her moment,

and Mike is being a good friend and playing with her. Like, I thought about that later. Mike and Donna worked this out. They're a good team. They were her. They're a good team. I wanna see them tackle more together. So Harvey finally opens up to Mike about his time at the DA. Harvey

then visits Cameron and tells him to settle. There are some really good lines in this scene. It's a great scene. This might be the scene of the episode just in terms of like if Cameron is a version of Harvey. To me this whole episode is almost like Harvey talking to himself. It's like Harvey wrestling with this part of himself. So it's a great scene. Anytime we're getting the two of them together, it's great, but this is the ultimate.

This is the like, they are, this is Harvey facing down this part of himself. And that's why when he says, you're a disappointment. When Harvey says you're a disappointment. Harvey says you're a disappointment, but you can see he's like saying it to himself too. Well, where does it fall in in relation to when Cameron is saying,

I stack my value to society against yours and I win every time by a mile or something like that. I win by a mile, yeah. And I think it's really interesting how righteous Cameron is about it, like that scary, ooh, you know, you really have a God complex and believe that you're right. And he calls Harvey a sellout because, I mean,

in some ways, there's a grain of truth to all of this. Yeah, he is working at a corporate law firm, moving large amounts of money around for very rich people. That's like what he does, which is why also this is a great episode. It's like taking us back to a time in Harvey's life when it was about people and justice and you know putting bad guys away for you know that's what it was about for him at some point. When he was probably an idealist and then he gets there and he sees what

Cameron does and he's like all of my worldview has come crumbling down because this is not justice. This isn't justice. And this was Mike's territory before. Morality. Morality. Do the right thing. It's all about people.

Harvey's the whole time been like, we don't do that. That's not what we do. We just like win the case. You win for your client. Now we're getting to go to that part for Harvey where it's about people. So this is the trauma that Harvey's coming from.

Trauma! That makes him be so shut down, right? This is the healing that he needs. Yeah, well, it's definitely. That Don is going to help him with throughout the next nine seasons, I think. Like getting back in touch with the part of himself that has empathy, that has ideals,

that trusts other people, that can feel things. It's a great scene. Fun to watch him do it. Breaks my heart when Harvey says you're a disappointment. That really cuts me. All right, we're into act five. Mike and Louis meet with their clients to confirm the settlement.

Everyone signs and Mike reveals his hand. Mike got his client the paper she wanted. So good. Rick. The Rick Hoffman should have won an Emmy award. Yeah. Episode really for Rick. This is great.

I think Mike said it perfectly at the beginning. This was a, just a beautiful episode for Rick because he gets to play some different colors and that's really about to build. We're building to that right now, but in this scene, just his silence and then that point at the end. When he goes, mm.

Mm. Like he just knows to, he's laying in wait for that moment. For lying in wait. It's like my favorite line of the episode. How do you say that? It just, mm. Yeah. Mm.

Louis confronts a distracted Harvey about the settlement. Louis outplayed Mike. Mike overpaid for his client's paper. Lewis has won. Great to finally see this happening. Like Harvey's breaking. Lewis just plays it so the scene could have been two guys yelling at each other. The script would have supported it. Like you know no no no I win go. A lesser actor than Rick Hoffman might have taken that and run with it and tried to outvolume or outplay him. But I think it's nice to see this stage direction

because I think we were given the cue and Rick took it beautifully, which is to come totally under. Absolutely. Like, see how shattered Harvey is and not be like, I'm sorry, I'm just gonna leave you alone. I'm still gonna tell you I won. But I'm gonna do it in a way that's, like, quiet and still.

And almost like, you're pathetic. It's very arresting. We've never seen him look at Harvey like, you're making me sad right now. I know. And have we seen this side of Lewis, is my question. No. No. It's great. Like, we've never seen him kind of be the one to go high and stay calm under these circumstances. He's off, we're all put off by how Harvey's coming apart,

which is sad, that makes me sad. I wish we could be more comfortable and like figure out a way to be there for him, but we all don't know how to deal with it because it's so rare. And you watch all of us not know how to deal with it. And then Rick could have just walked out and be like, we'll talk about this another time. We all don't know how to deal with it because it's so rare. And you watch all of us not know how to deal with it. And then Rick could have just walked out and be like, we'll talk about this another time.

And he doesn't. He still stuffs it to him. Well, I would argue with that a little bit because Donna turns on her heel, takes it in, turns on her heel, and she goes into action. She goes- You go to do a thing. Right, right, right. She goes to try to help. That's a good point.

And there's what can anyone do in this moment? Not much. It's in the moment of the explosion. There's nothing. You've got to go do a thing. But we learn in this next scene when Donna visits Jessica, she has that manila folder in hand that she has something to give to Jessica that's very, very, very important. And it is some evidence against Cameron

that obviously she's been holding onto for a very long time. Also, she anticipated that this might be a thing one day, that there would come a time when Harvey would have to defend himself or when Harvey would elect to take that guy down. What I loved about this scene is that I think this is one of the very few scenes that I have one on one with Gina. So good. In the whole series. And I really especially appreciate how she says immediately that she

judges people by how they treat the lowest person on the ladder and that she's always been impressed with how Jessica treated the lowest people on the ladder herself. And I think in my brain, this is when I probably went down like a rabbit hole of what did Cameron do to Donna back then. But I also think that maybe it was somebody else and it was another woman. And it just feels sort of dirty, like beyond the just, I mean, there's nothing dirtier than putting somebody away who's innocent, but, or burying evidence or anything like that, but I just meant like something, something with somebody who doesn't have any kind of power in the work force at all.

I think Donna always had the safety of having Harvey, like you were saying, like who has people's backs. So if, if Cameron had perpetrated something against Donna explicitly, Harvey would have already killed him, already gone to town on him. Like there would be something different going on here. So I think it was her friend too, that like he did disgusting things to,

or awful things to. Interesting. And that's why she's so upset. It's fun to watch the two women on either side of the power structure of this firm be together. Do it together and need each other. And get each other and be able to talk openly and honestly doesn't feel, you know,

that power differential, it does not feel important to the scene. Turns out, great show. Moving on, Rachel approaches Mike in the fax room. After an arm touch, Mike confronts Rachel about their relationship. They are done. This is a tough one for me, for the same reason we talked about before. I love all these scenes, you know, with Rachel and Mike.

It's just a tough... It's hard. It's hard. The hand on the arm thing just doesn't work for me in this scene. It's weird because again, it's sort of aggressive. It's like very clear she's doing it intentionally. It's not an accident, which obviously was intentional, but it just looks weird.

And I don't, because the line is in there, I say later on in the scene, like and now you're putting your hand on my arm, that like constricts us to like, well, we have to find a way to put a hand on the arm in this scene. Like we can't figure out a way that makes, energetically makes sense where it's a swipe

and we both notice it or something. So it gets at this bigger problem where I'm struggling with the, I know that I want Mike and Rachel to figure it out and I know ultimately it's the path for the two of them, but I'm not loving how they're getting there. I think what I craved was not this level of seriousness yet. When he says, hey, I can't do this,

which you played really beautifully. I think Rachel's character was written to be very angry. And I didn't understand how we were already there. It's not like they had been in this relationship for a long time. It just felt very serious all of a sudden. I don't know if I was ready for that. And I wasn't ready for Rachel's reaction to be like that.

You mean like how angry she is at the end? Like we're done. We're done. I didn't feel like we had earned that, like I said before, because we haven't developed Rachel's side of this enough. We've really developed Jenny actually. That's true. And we haven't developed the romantic side of Rachel.

And how hard it is to be falling for somebody who's in a relationship. Like, that's complicated. But I feel like we need to have more of Rachel's point of view of this situation. So after that, Jessica confronts Cameron. She has evidence against him and she will use it

unless he makes a new deal. And back at Pearson Hardman, Jessica lets Harvey know that everything has been resolved, but Harvey's distracted and he realizes that he and Cameron put an innocent man behind bars. Harvey has to fix it. So now we have officially moved into serialized episodes. This one has to go into the next one.

So this is really just half an episode in a way. We definitely feel like, oh yeah, this is like the biggest cliffhanger that we've had. Yeah. Yeah. Which is great, that's like right at the end of our season. But it is fun because you can feel our show shift into like, we've grown out of procedural. We've like, we've done it, we don't have to do it.

And we know our show's headed more into that. And it's cool to see it happen in real time. And we're gonna have to turn into a binge worthy show because the whole world is gonna change in terms of how we watch our TV now and now we're gonna play next, play next, play next like we do. Well, and it's not back in the day we couldn't do that.

I think I would have felt going into this season that I'd struggle more with the procedural of it because I don't watch shows like that. Like it's not the kind of TV I normally watch. But I understand why people, like, it worked. It's not that it didn't work. No. Yeah. It's just it worked. We did it. And now we're committed. And it's the perfect time to move into like, I'm ready to take a story beyond one episode to the other. I mean, we've had

stories that are moving, but I'm ready to really like be left wanting, oh my God, how are these guys gonna deal with this? How's everybody gonna deal with this at the end of an episode? So yeah, it was exciting. Anything else? That's the end of an episode. That's the end of the episode. All right, so that's the end of our episode.

Do you have any honorable mentions? I've always got honorable mentions. Have you got some honorable mentions, Patrick? Yeah, what? We've got a shout out to Mike Smith, John Cowan, but Mike Smith is the first of so many and for good reason. Gary Cole.

Great to have Gary Cole. Definitely the facts we're spurring. Yeah, discovering that Mike and Don are actors. Good actors. Like to improv with each other. It's good to do summer stock somewhere. For me, serious Harvey deep dive into the psychology of Harvey.

That's like the highlight. Donna and Jessica together, Mike reckoning with these two women in his life. And I think Louis shows some really different exciting colors in this episode. Those are my honorable mentions. women in his life and I think Lewis shows some really different exciting colors in this episode. Those are my honorable mentions. My only objection was the shirt that Jenny had to wear in the first scene. That's it? That's the only one? That's good. Yeah, I guess that's good.

Yeah, that's my only objection. I don't have much. The music was tough for me. I struggled with the music in this episode. The pace at times felt a little weird. I just felt like we were all moving a little slowly. I'll speak for myself. I definitely felt like I was moving slow, but I felt like the whole episode was moving a little slower than I was used to. But that's it.

I thought it was a great episode. And really leading us nicely into the end of our season, which I can't believe next week we get the final episode. No, and I am really excited to get into that episode. Yeah. To do a deep dive. Yeah. All right, well, we're at the end.

God damn counter. What's your guess? Zero. Oh, you went zero. See how she did that? Because it's been, she's burned. Wait. I thought you were about to give me an answer.

I'm not giving an answer. I'm just saying I love how Sarah is, she just really went for it. You taught me this. I'm going one. Well you're wrong, and Sarah's right. Yeah! I just had to give up.

I needed a win. You got it, you win. We still don't know what we win, but you win. So that's a case closed on the rules of the game. Thanks so much for listening. I think we need to say goodbye with a little Captain and Tenille today. Okay, that's a case closed. We're going to play you out with a little muskrat love or a little...

I don't think we have the rights to that. I know. So we will not be playing it. You will be singing it. Muskrat Suzy, muskrat Sam. Go. Muskrat Suzy, muskrat Sam. Love the yacht rock.

We will see you next week. Thanks guys. Thanks so much for tuning in. Have a great week. We'll talk to you on Tuesday. We love our listeners and we would love to hear from you. If you have any questions for us, email us at sidebarpodcast at SiriusXM.com. If you send us a question as a voice memo, we may even get to play it on the show.

And if you can, please make sure to leave a review wherever you listen. It's a great way to support the show. Thank you. Sidebar is produced by Sarah Rafferty, Patrick J. Adams, and SiriusXM Media. Our senior producer is Kimi Gregory, and our producer and researcher is Kristen Schrader. Our sound engineer is Alex Gonzalez and our music is by Brendan Burns. Our executive producers are Cody Fisher and Colin Anderson.