Sidebar: A Suits Watch Podcast - Undefeated

Episode Date: January 7, 2025

Update - we at Sidebar have the giggles. Happy New Year! This week, Sarah and Patrick are covering S1 E9 - Undefeated. But first, what is going on with the bump on Patrick's face? They discuss checking your friend's bumps, how great Eric Close is as Harvey's rival "Tanner," how important tailors were while making "Suits," dealing with conflict on set, why we love Pooch Hall, and one of the best Rachel/Louis moments in all of Suits.  Email us a voice memo of your questions about Suits at [e-mail]. We may use it on the show!Follow us on Instagram & TikTok - @suitssidebarGet access to all the podcasts you love, music channels and radio shows with the SiriusXM App! Get 3 months free using this show link: https://siriusxm.com/sidebar

The Hi everyone, welcome to Sidebar, a Suits Watch podcast. My name is Patrick Adams. I'm Sarah Rafferty and I have the giggles. We both were on Suits, but we never really watched suits until then. And this week we watched season one, episode nine, better known as Undefeated, but before we dive in we have The Giggles. We just start here. Oh god it's a good way to start the new year. I feel it feels right it feels like a cleansing breath. Yeah. A cleansing giggle. I need need the giggles. This is what we did on set. This is what Gabriel brought to us, I feel like.

The giggles? He brought a lot of giggles, everybody knows that. But I felt like, though sometimes maybe it could have felt distracting, it was also a nice reset. Yeah, you gotta laugh. Nice tension breaker. Gotta laugh. Gotta remember, we're just here playing.

Right? And we're here playing. I have to question it, because you seem to know things about doctors. I got this bump on my face. Do you see this thing? Yeah. How do you get rid of it?

It's not a zit, and it's not a cold sore. Oh. What is it? I think you just need some commensal. But do you laser things or something? I've never done lasering. Is that a thing? Oh, I know that stuff, yeah.

You're gonna make me share. Do you have a laser on you? You know, I have red light. I don't think that's gonna do it. This thing's been there for like a couple weeks. If it's been there for a couple weeks, you need to go to a doctor, you jackass. No, it's just a little something.

It's just like a little bump. Wait a minute. You know, wait, hang on, I got a little bump. Can you look at this and tell me if this looks infected? Yeah, exactly. Get your bumps checked. It's 2025. Or get your friends, or check your friends bumps.

Brought to you by Bumps. Check your friends bumps. In 2025, check your friends bumps. Look them over. Look for the bumps. You know, this is the podcast that nobody asked for. But that everybody needs. Happy New Year. Happy New Year. Here we are.

2025. What's your dream for the year? I'm excited about this time that we share. And to check your bumps from time to time. Oh god, that sounded weird. Suddenly it sounded weird. First time it was going great. It didn't feel weird before. Second time. Second time. First time I was fine. Second time when I talked to you, looked you right in the eye and said I want to check your bumps, it felt weird. It suddenly got really weird. I hope we're at the point in our relationship where nothing really needs to feel weird. We're close.

Yeah. We're pretty darn close. Well, today we're breaking down season one, episode nine, Undefeated. This episode was written by Rick Moraghi. He's back for the second time, directed by Felix Alcala. This is his first episode,

not of television, but of Suits. It originally aired on Thursday, August 18th, 2011, and it was shot July 5th to 13th, 2011. And in this episode, Harvey and Mike work to get a settlement for a community of cancer patients, but the opposing council keeps being one step ahead. Harvey Spector has met his match in Travis Tanner, and Mike wants to help Rachel, who's been wrongly accused of leaking information

to a rival firm. All right, opening statements about undefeated. Yeah, what do you think? What's your opening statement? Well, I'm still trying to figure out our format here, but it did occur to me this time that maybe a good way to use opening statements rather than talk about the episode

which we're about to talk about endlessly is talk about how I'm going into the episode when I'm feeling it. So I'm gonna start writing these opening the episode when I'm feeling it. So I'm gonna start writing these opening statements like before I've watched it almost. Oh, wow. Do you know what I mean?

Like where am I at? Dear diary. What's going on? How am I feeling? Am I excited? And so going into this one, I'm going in a little worried because I'm exhausted. And we've talked a lot about that on the podcast.

I promise in 2025, I won't be so tired. But it's been- You're gonna be rejuvenated in 2025. It's been a long run. And I've noticed that when I watch these episodes and I'm tired, I become a little cynical and a little judgmental. And so for this one, I'm going in with an awareness

about that, going, ooh, you're a tired man. And I didn't totally want to watch the episode, if I'm honest. I was like, oh, I gotta watch it. And that hasn't happened so much. So I wanted to be honest about that going in. Opening statement, not 100% into it. But then I see Rick Meragi wrote it.

That made me more excited, because we love the man. This is his second episode, his first episode. This season was one of our favorites. So I'm excited to see that. And then I'm also excited to see what Felix does, because I'm very curious, as we know, of seeing what these new directors do and the different style they bring to it. So that's how I was remaining positive going in.

But I also wanted to be honest that dad's tired. Dad's tired. Dad's tired. Dad's tired. Dad's tired. That's fair. Yeah. So right in the first few frames of this episode, I was so excited because it just feels like Rowan

would be happy. There's some great pace right out of the gate. We've got that, right? Yeah, I forgot, yes. Who's keeping the pace? Is that a deep cut? Yeah. To go back to Rowan saying that she really likes the pace.

The pacing is good. And there's something kind of really, I don't want to say simple in like a diminutive way. There's just something so like pure about this episode Out of the Gate because it is one case that we can get our head around pretty quickly. It's very clear. We've got like a winning plaintiff. Yeah. We've got a winning plaintiff.

I've done that so many times in this episode. Plaintiff. Plaintiff. We've got a winning plaintiff. Yeah, we've got a winning plaintiff. I've done that so many times in this episode. Plaintiff. Plaintiff. Plaintiff. We've got a winning plaintiff. And the case itself has a lot of heart. Jessica is gonna trust her best closer to it.

So we've got like these archetypical things happening, right? That we're familiar with, that gives us that familiarity. Harvey takes on a formidable foe, which is new and fun and exciting. Rachel is in peril, and listener, wait for it, because this episode closes with possibly one of the most satisfying Rachel scenes ever, and I'm excited to talk to you about it.

And I did talk to Rick Moraghi about it a little bit. We meet Benjamin, Benjamin, who has a very special place in my heart, and Louis is Lewising. And also, I realized Eric Close looks like he could be my brother, doesn't he? I was watching him, I was like, why have I never played his sister in anything

on all those great TV shows he was on? Gosh darn it. So many, so many. I think what you're right and what you're hitting on is how many new people we get to meet in this episode that go on to be fundamental and important to our show. So, and I have a couple of points. Maybe Rick mentioned it to you, but something I learned about that. But let's get to that when we get to it.

All right. So we're in the teaser. We open on Rachel and Mike flirting in the hallway at Pearson Hardman. Right off the bat, a shocking line. I know. Which apparently is not in the script. Is not in the script. Yeah, we have this crazy line where Rachel says that she's not wearing any underwear and upon further inspection not in the script, but I'd be dying to know how it came about and it doesn't

seem like something that Megan would have improvised. Right. Didn't feel like that to me. For some reason that doesn't work. So I don't know if maybe they came up with it in the moment, like everybody decided to do it or maybe we did it. Sometimes you'll do things as a joke, not filming. And then people will be like, that was really funny. And then you film it.

So I don't know. Or you do it on the last take because they've already got it. So you're just going to do the thing that you're like they'll never use this. And then they use it. And then they use it. But it's nice to see these two flirting and and right off the bat I went to a potential contender for our Gina Tordrias award. I mean and this might be fashion police stuff like am I totally wrong but I thought this outfit was really cool. Is it like? Yes, I'm asking. I'm asking a woman's opinion, because I have no fashion sense.

Was this a cool outfit? Is this good? Or is this? It was a- I understand, I'm also putting you in a position where you have to talk about another person's clothing in a scene. Oh yeah, well okay.

I have no problem with that, because much of the time we're gonna be talking about Rachel and Jessica and they always look amazing. Those women can't look bad. They could wear a paper bag. It is a great dress. It is a very cool dress.

It has like this cool ruching situation and this like belted thing, but it has like this khaki tone that gives it kind of this casualness in that environment but I have notes. About the outfit? I do. What? What? What? It's ill-fitting. They didn't tailor it. It's not ill-fitting on her. I get it. Nothing we're saying is that anyone doesn't look right. I get that. There's a bunchiness that wasn't managed and I know in later seasons that would have been. In the back? Or... No, right on the front.

God. All right. Let me just see. Oh, I see what you mean. Like it just... God, I'm such a fashion neophyte. I see what you mean. It's a cool dress.

It's a beautiful dress. She's gorgeous. She looks amazing, but you could gather material differently. The first dress that I'm wearing is also ill fitting. And I think this was a budget issue that we didn't have time with the tailor. That like one, two, and three maybe had time with the tailor and the rest of us didn't yet.

Because I do remember sometimes at this point, Julie would say, let's pick the dress that fits the best right now because we can't, we've already used up the tailor's time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We didn't have like an on-staff tailor at this point. We did, but we probably had a limited amount of hours that we could use. This is all interesting stuff to hopefully talk at the end of our season wrap-up.

I think we're going to get a chance to hopefully talk with Aaron. It'll actually be interesting to talk budget and how the finances of a whole television season works, how the later episodes that we're getting into now are different than the first episodes. I'd be curious now are different than the first episodes. I'd be curious to hear that. Yeah, absolutely. Anyway, so while Rachel and Mike corral the Plaintiffs in the library, Travis Tanner walks in.

So tell me about Eric Close. Eric Close appeared in six episodes as Travis Tanner. He was so great and you can see in this episode. I mean, it's the first time we're really getting a good foil for Harvey, and I think they do a very good job in the sequence, this whole sequence in the teaser, of making him, like, there's a real fox

in the hen house type vibe with him, right? The music's changing, he's really charming, Mike's charmed by him. Oh, who's this nice guy? He's dressed a little differently, he's dressed down. There's this great piece of- Because he's from Boston. He's dressed a little differently. He's dressed down. There's this great piece of- Because he's from Boston. He's from Boston.

How does he like them apples? There's that piece of music that drops in when he walks into the conference room in the scene just after this. I don't know how to describe it because I don't speak music, but like it's layered in underneath like a almost Trent Reznor, nine inch nails,

social network soundtrack kind of a thing, deep cut, but it's cool. They just do a very good job of setting him up as a great foil for Harvey. And you can see in Gabriel's performance, I think in this whole sequence, he seems really rattled by him. And there is, in this whole episode,

I can think of a couple other places that are coming up where the music comes in and it does tip the hat to how you're supposed to feel in a really fun way. And also you said that you really loved Eric's approach to acting or to being on set. Like there was something about him that really resonated with you. I just remember him being like the nicest guy

and really charming and you know, it's hard when you're coming in and playing the villain, but I think part of his, what makes his Travis Tanner so compelling is he does it. He's not playing the villain. Yeah, he's doing it really with a smile. He's not out, he's not mustache twirling

and wanting to get it, Harvey. Yeah, he's really, he's enjoying it. He's enjoying the fun of it and he seems very confident. And I think that's probably why we brought him back, is that A, he's terrific and we're so lucky to have him, but you wanna see him go up against Harvey over and over again. Yeah, and then he tricks Donna, how dare he?

Tricks Donna, we don't like to see Donna get, someone get the best of her. But again, it makes Tanner look even cooler. Does. Like just gets her right away. When he plays that moment with you in the library when you're like and then you go up here and you turn and then you see Donna and he's like oh yeah Donna Donna and he pretends that he's like buds with Donna it's like so believable.

Oh yeah and then you know we get to see Tanner and Harvey together in the office and I think it's just like I said before such a great setup for these two characters the foil you can really tell oh Harvey's kind of metam match here. Note you never like to see somebody go after our main man, but you can tell they're both going to enjoy the battle. And so it makes us excited for the rest of the episode. Absolutely. They do this weird thing in this episode with the whip panning. Remember that? Like Travis Tanner's talking and it whip pans to the plaintiff and then whip pans to Travis Tanner. How'd you feel about that?

I thought it was interesting but I also found... It took me out of it because I was like that's hard for the actor because they're just like, hey say that line and then we're gonna move the camera. Like say it, it's not grounded in being in the midst of a scene. Yeah it was very, it felt very static. Felt like there was a version of it that might work but we didn't pull it off properly or something. It just, I didn't feel like we were catching someone in the middle of a scene.

Like you just said, it felt like one person saying a line and then it going away. It felt like, can you say it again? Wait, it felt like it was about the camera. Yeah, yes, exactly. And I know what happens to me when I'm like, oh shoot, I've got to get this. I got to feel when this camera's here and then I've got to do it in a certain amount

of time. And then you're just thinking about the technical. Totally. But you know what? I'm so happy to see things being tried. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly.

So we have learned about our case of the week. 200 members of a small community school are suing a big oil company who failed to properly seal off an oil well. And now the community, unfortunately unfortunately is riddled with cancer and Harvey is fighting to get them the money that they deserve. Little Aaron Brockovich episode. Let's go. All right we're into act one. Jessica's reassuring plaintiff Kenny when Harvey enters and right when I think somebody is about to maybe take the Gina Torres Award for the week, she takes it for herself. Gina walks in and just snatches it.

My God. Again, I don't know the first thing about fashion, but here it is. She's unstoppable. That is a great outfit. So that is a great outfit. It is a great woman inside a very good outfit. Gina makes that outfit great. But it's the proportions of that outfit that works so well.

You see the waist, you see the length of her, you understand the length of her legs. It's just perfectly proportioned to her. Do you understand the length of my legs? No, but look at it. In the wide shot, you can really see that it's perfect for the proportions of her body, which means it was tailored.

And then I love that when she sits, it's like- She puts her foot up. Yeah, it's just kind of like a casual sit. She can be wearing that and yet seem like it's a Saturday morning and it's chill. That's how easily she wears that outfit. I also think that fabric gives you that too, because it looks like it's like a jersey,

so it moves in a way that is really comfortable. A jersey? When you say jersey, I think like a sports jersey. You can think whatever you like, Badger Adams. What is jersey? The ladies who are listening know what I'm saying. No, but I want to know. Explain it to me. I'm just giving you a hard time. Jersey, what is that?

Jersey is like a fabric that moves and stretches and drapes really nicely. A lot of the things that you've liked her in have been that Jersey like a Diane Von Furstenberg dress, like a wrap dress. What did you just say to me? Diane, Gesundheit. What did you call me? Wow, really?

I do know that, I know that name, I know that name. Oh, good Lord. I was like, I do not know where to start. So anyway, but that is when Tanner interrupts Donna at her desk. Can you pop that up real quick? Yeah. I'm gonna play this little game with you for a second.

Oh, I love a game. Patrick. Okay, see that dress? Yeah. Just look at it for a second. I totally see what you are talking about. Thank you. 100%. Now I can't. That does not fit. Now I can't unsee it.

Yeah, that dress does not fit. That is not fitting properly. No, no it is not. And that camera angle is doing nobody any favors. That's so interesting. So see the bunchy bunches? Yeah, shouldn't be there. And there was bunchy bunches on-

Bunchy bunches of oats. On Rachel's, honey bunches of oats on Rachel's dress too. But it is not what is going on with Gina's dress. No. You just are like, what is happening? Oh my God. It fits perfectly. So tailoring is on full display in this. So the tailors on suits,

because our wardrobe got better and better and better through the season, we have more time with them. Of course. And it was their gifts that Brought it like I had I remember once I had a Valentino Jumpsuit and it was the wrong size and so all they did was right in front of me take scissors and cut it in half And you think oh my god, this is a Valentina piece of Valentino, but no that's exactly what you do They just redid it for exactly my proportions, which is what was going on with that dress with Gina. It is a knockout. Got it. All right, it's all in this Taylor and guys, 2025. Get a Taylor. This episode brought to you by Taylor. I wish you all.

1-800-TAYLOR. Okay, next scene, then we see Harvey and Mike at the coffee cart talking strategy, doing their thing, calling Michael Jordan's. Great scene, love to see these where yes, we move a little plot around, but really it's just about our boys being silly boys. Yeah, and you having a panic attack when Michael Jordan answers the phone, which was not in the script. It was the ringing that made you hang up. But what you chose to do was actually play like,

oh my God, his erinous. Also, I don't think I'm going to ask him about baseball as in the script. Oh, it's not in the script. Yeah, which I'm proud of myself for because I'm not a sports fan. I mean, look, I know Michael Jordan, but like I'm not the guy that wants to go riffing

on joke, like sport jokes. That's always gonna go badly. Exactly. That's for Rick to do. And so the fact that I had a little improv that has anything to do with the sporting world, proud of me. Hat tip. First one, last one.

Nice. So then Jessica and Louis gather the associates. Case information has been leaked from inside the firm. Louis is determined to get to the bottom of it. Of course he is. We got lots going on in this scene. Yeah, marching all the associates in two. Everybody's getting marched in, but we meet Pooch.

We meet Jimmy, played by Pooch Hall, who came back for three more episodes after this. We see more Max Toplin, he's speaking. Now I know we've heard him speak before, but now we've got a little bit in here, which is very funny. Yeah, he wants a tattoo, and he's overpaying on his apartment,

which is some good information. That was really funny. Later we hear he may have been discussing a dermatological problem. So it's just proof that our writers love Max and are writing for Harold. Yeah, you can see it starting to happen. And that Rick specifically, I think.

Rick Meragi, yeah. Gets how to write it. I love this scene. I thought this was a great scene, but I think this episode does what other episodes have tried to do, which is like, perfects the vibe in the bullpen. There's a real guy is to out match each other vibe

and by introducing Pooch here, you're gonna see a bunch of scenes in this episode, I think where you feel the bullpen is like what we wanted it to be, a sort of a locker room vibe where soon as the adults leave the room, we're all kind of like one-upping each other and trying to get the best of one another.

Yeah, but this is the episode especially, and we'll talk about it when we get to the scene, this is the episode where Mike's character kind of takes the reins in there and becomes the leader, like the self-appointed leader. Yeah, he's not afraid to kind of step up in this one. Yeah, he's grown into that role. So Mike and Harvey discuss Travis Tanner,

Donna walks in to connect a call, and Travis Tanner is on the line. It's another Mike Harvey scene. I always feel like these are becoming little like ports in the storm. Like we just need to check back and then whether it's Mike and Harvey or Mike or Donna and Harvey or we just need, we're learning now in the pace of the show, we need to like every five scenes you have to just drop in a piece of silliness and fun back and forth. Yes.

And also, I think I speak for the entire planet when I say Donna should wear blue a lot, because you look smoking hot. It might not fit though. I might be totally wrong. I'm just saying color-wise, it looks great. Am I wrong? It's a good dress. You don't like blue? It's a really good dress. You don't like blue? I love blue. I love blue. What's wrong? What happened? Blue is my favorite color to wear. I'm getting the look. What happened? What Am I wrong? It's a good dress. You don't like blue? It's a really good dress. You don't like blue? I love blue.

I love blue. What was my favorite color to wear? I'm getting the look. What happened? You're getting the look that like, thanks friend. Oh, okay, good. I was like, you fashion fool. This is me trying to be like cute, like, oh. Okay, good. I'm just making sure.

No fashion fool there. I loved that dress. This is the scene where Donna says officially, you know I listen. Oh, love that. Yeah. Right? And in the last episode. Oh, this is the scene where Donna says officially, you know I listen. Oh, love that. Yeah. Right? It's a great line. And in the last episode. Oh, this is the first time?

This is the first time where she's completely just says straight up like, duh. I'm listening to everything you say. You know I listen. Because he looks at her like, wait, how do you know? Because I come in and I say that tennis playing douchebag is on the phone. But you guys only just talked about it.

You just talked about that he went to Yale and that he's a tennis player, which of course really cracked me up because Santu went to Yale and played on the tennis team. So Gabriel and I thought it was fun. Wait, what school did he go to? Well, okay, fuck off. But I'm telling you from behind the scenes,

Gabriel and I thought it was funny because my husband is that guy. 100%. So that was really fun. But one of the points that I wanna make about having Donna come in and say, you know I listen, is important a little bit to the evolution of Donna and something that Donna was made fun of a lot on social media about. But in the previous episode,

we didn't talk about this in the previous pod, but there's two places where Donna's lurking outside the room in the previous episode, Identity Crisis, where she's just there to get the information so that we know that she has it. And it's a little bit weird that she's kind of creeping. And what I felt was that that was really starting to diminish her power, that she had to be sort of

on the outskirts of a room listening in, instead of being somebody who is so intimately linked to Harvey that they share enough that she's totally up to speed. She's also in charge of all of his calls and emails and that sort of thing. But she's also has a real intuition about what's going on. And she listens in on the calls. So they've sort of shifted. Which is not abnormal, right? I don't know, like when I talk to my agents, for example,

when I call my reps, I think, are there assistants for listening on the call? That's not a phone call, but she was listening to your... Right. Like she's put on an intercom. Yeah. Like she's bugged to the room. Basically. But she's got to because she's got to stay ahead of it.

Because so when he goes, I don't know. All right, we need you to you've already got it done. Yes, exactly. So anyway, what I think is interesting about that is that Donna and Harvey have that degree of intimacy. They have zero secrets. They obviously spend lots of time together and she's considered equal status. So that's what we're like locking in.

And we don't have to bring you the actor in for scenes to stand outside the office. Yeah, yeah, exactly. All right, Mike enters the bullpen to find Jimmy accusing Harold of being the mole. Mike tells everyone to get back to work. Yeah, from what we were talking about before, I'm starting to really love being in the bullpen in this episode.

I think it has a lot to do with Pooch Hall. He's great. We're so lucky to have him. He was doing Ray Donovan as well at the time, I think. He hadn't done it yet, so I called Bonnie last night about Bonnie's notebook. Oh, he hadn't started yet. And she said Pooch had auditioned for her for many things. And she was always looking for something for him.

And this was it. Got it. Because remember how she said, I asked her when we were interviewing her, I said, you get so invested. Like when you go through a testing process and you've got three actors and only one gets it, how do you feel?

What do you do about the other two? And she had the simplest answer, which was so sweet. She was like, I just immediately think of what I owe them. And I think that's pooch here is that. And then she said, and then immediately it got really complicated to schedule him because he got Ray Donovan. Which was, I think, his first big, big fat. With heavy hitters.

Yeah. And then we kept getting him, you know, while he was doing Ray Donovan. It was always cool to have him come in and tell great stories from that set you know, while he was doing Red Dawn, but it was always cool to have him come in and tell great stories from that set and how much fun he was having. The Mike-Harold-Pooch combo is a really fun team

to watch in here. And now that there's like a genuine crisis, a mystery that these guys are trying to crack, it makes the Bullpen a place I wanna like hang out more. It's like a top gun locker room or something. But it, and it's the place where Mike gets to finally be king, I think. Yeah, where he's learning to stand up for himself for sure.

Yeah. So Harvey meets Tanner at the school and then after some back and forth, Tanner says his client is looking to settle. Harvey senses that something is afoot. What happens in Act Two? Oh, so in Act Two, Mike and Harvey check in on Kenny. It's clear that Tanner is breaking the rules

and fighting dirty. Filthy. Then back at Pearson Hardman, the associates are starting to turn on each other. Benedict Arnold, nice reference. You helping your high school girlfriend with her homework again? Nailed it, great line.

And then he's like, she's of age. Yeah, so good. I love these scenes. Louis pulls Mike into his office to congratulate him. Mike inadvertently has reported the mole when handing some documents to Louis. Everything points to Rachel, who is suspended. That was a really funny moment to have Louis behind you

with his hands on your shoulders. Physically. We get to have that shot of the two of you and see how terribly uncomfortable you are. Yeah, that was funny. That was great. I also find it funny that Mike takes a $10,000 check. I mean, he obviously is upset

and he's gonna go try and fix this situation, but he doesn't give back that $10,000 check. I mean, he obviously is upset and he's gonna go try and fix this situation But he doesn't give back that $10,000 check because he's human Like, you know, maybe I'll hold on to this see what happens I'm not judging so then Mike follows Rachel outside She is livid. Mm-hmm. She has cause to be she's angry. She got she got let go. Mm-hmm I always love it. I mean, we've talked about it before, but it's fun to see Rachel start to get these pieces to play, you know, being angry, something.

There's just more to it than being helpful to Mike figure out a problem. She's now has a serious problem of her own that Mike needs to help with. And I think it, I think she's great in these scenes. Mike has to help with it, but she's not asking for his help. No.

Which is really interesting. Oh yeah, that's a good point. Like she is her own, well, I'm not gonna, actually not gonna spoil the end of it. Well no, but it's a good point. She doesn't ask for Mike's help. Yeah, she's like, I'm gonna go deal with this myself.

Can I tell you that I got triggered at the end of the scene? Tell me. Because she's driving away and you're like, you're overreacting. And I was like, you're overreacting. And I was like, ahhhhhhhhh! Do I have to hear a man say that to a woman? I don't know what kind of a man.

Don't tell me how to react. So you're not overreacting. You just got fired for something you didn't do that would affect your whole career. That's a good proportion reaction. Yeah. Good point. I have something about this scene that brought up, which was a behind the scenes drama a bit.

This is not something to dwell on, but it is, I want to be honest when things come up that were also uncomfortable or maybe don't, that make me not look that good. I remember while we were building the show, we would often improvise lines and we would come up with lines and they were some of our favorite moments, right? And we've talked about this when Aaron was there,

it was great because he could just say, yeah, do that, it's great. When Aaron wasn't there, it was harder to do because you'd had to do what was scripted. And I was young and I don't remember the context within this scene or whatever, but I just have a memory of us shooting a scene,

and that's why I think it's this one. It's Rachel and I on the street, and something wasn't working about the scene. We couldn't quite get it to work the way that we thought it could, and so we started kind of riffing, not on camera, but before we went to camera. What if you say this? What if I say this? what if I do this, you do this? Which is, it's a kind of a no-no sometimes because you have a writer who wrote a script. I don't remember if Rick was there, that would change it if Rick Meragi was there. But it just made me wanna talk about this moment

where I think I overstepped that boundary as an actor and I maybe made too many suggestions or I really overthought my own ability, but I remember I got really in there. Like more than an actor, especially a young new actor, should probably get in there. And Sean Jablonski, our showrunner, took real offense to it.

Not in the moment, but it was something that I got a phone call about later on. And I remember just being mortified by it. It was like the first real kind of talking to I got on the show. And as a young actor, it was sort of terrifying. You know? Yeah, that would make me so scared.

Yeah. You know, but I also got defensive because I was like legitimately, like the scene wasn't working. And you know, I was used to if Aaron was here, he would, we'd work it out together. I had no doubt that Aaron and I were always simpatic on the same page, but I think I,

I overestimated how much that sense of connection between Aaron and I and how much faith I had in that we would be on the same page about things. I sort of did not take the appropriate route, which now would be, I mean, some showrunners are just like, do not change a word, that's it. This is the script. It's not up for conversation. That was not how this show evolved. There was like, let's try it. Let's make it funnier. As I think a lot of comedies or shows that have comedic elements have to have, but I think

I overstepped it. I didn't, I didn't check before. These are all conversations you should have before you get to set. Yes. I didn't check before. These are all conversations you should have before you get to set. Yes, yes. And I did not, in a perfect world. And it was something that I didn't do, and it was in the moment. And I think I overstepped. And I remember getting a phone call

and getting into a very heated back and forth with Sean Jablonski, who I didn't ultimately know very well. You know, he was an important part of the show, but he wasn't a new Aaron better. Do you know what he said? Do you remember anything? Just like, that's, you're out of line, basically. You know, in not as nice words as that. It was yelling.

We were, there was yelling back and forth. Totally fine now, Sean is an incredible guy and we totally buried it and I apologize profusely as did he. Look, it happens towards the ends of seasons when also they were probably breaking the finale. You know, at the same time, if you think about the number we're on,

like the different kinds of pressures that are going on plus the edits of all these things while we're on the air were on the air. So they gotta deliver things. But I think that there's always this moment where there's a really difficult, elusive, and scary line between being collaborative and then the conflict.

Like, there's a moment where sometimes where you know that you are supposed to stand out and that can get very hard because it's your mug up there playing the scene and you can feel a moment that maybe feels like it's not working to you in a scene. I noticed in this scene, there was a start stop kind of, Rachel goes to sort of hail a cab,

but she's not quite at the curb yet. There was something that I was like. Yeah, might've been that. I don't even, it's funny I don't remember. It was a great scene, but it wasn't quite, there was this one little not in gear moment blocking wise. Yeah. And, but I think it's interesting that you bring it up

because I do think it's an important thing to talk about on this podcast as we move forward because there were conflicts. And- 100%. And conflict is healthy. And usually on the other side of conflict, when there is actually repair, is a kind of growth. Totally. Right?

And the collaboration gets better and stronger, but it can be a longer process. Yeah. And you know, and you have two very different jobs. You're writing it, I'm performing it, but there's so much crossover. And to figure out how to navigate that relationship with respect, which is like, I respect you've written it. I also respect that maybe the things

that make me uncomfortable as an actor that I don't wanna do might actually be the best thing. How many times have we had that experience? Like so many times on this, yeah like I can be sure that this is not right and then we do it and it's like, oh my God, it was right. I was just scared to do it or I thought I couldn't do it. And look, I was a very young actor at this time

and I was filled with a lot of, I think I know everything energy after shooting nine episodes of television. Yeah, I was young. I was young and I think I know everything, energy after shooting nine episodes of television. Yeah, you know, I was young. I was young and I think I got a bit cockier and had a few wins, had a few good lines that I like made up that, you know, were good and funny. And so that makes you a little cocky.

And I think I maybe, this was a moment where I overstepped that. Um, and sadly, probably not the last one. The last one. I think from the Sean Jablonski side of it, I think what's interesting in these conflicts and when collaboration turns into conflict, we bring every one of those conflicts

from every other show collaborative endeavor we had, we bring to that one. Totally. So in sometimes what I experience and sometimes what I feel like I'm on the side of is I can feel when that side, the sort of more in charge side, it's the worst feeling in the world where you feel like what I call in the most kind of awful way, like shut up and look pretty.

Yeah. Just we gotta, this is a business. We gotta, we gotta make our day. It's not about you today. It's not. No, and, just we gotta this is a business. We gotta we gotta make our day It's not about you to this no and that's fine and it's true But sometimes it hurts in that ugly way of shut up and look pretty Mm-hmm and and that's ego too. And sometimes I'm sorry as a woman sometimes it's true Yeah, that is a part of the patriarchy that exists, but sometimes it's just the patriarchy that exists. But sometimes it's just, uh...

Yeah. No. It's tough. So I'm glad you brought it up. Good. And let's see how it comes up for us in the future. Yeah, I want to be honest about conflict. It happens. It comes along. Harvey meets with Vanessa, the private eye, at the newsstand and she reveals that Tanner has rented a conference room at the Waldorf for the next day. Great to have her back. Wait, one weird thing, newsstands at night?

Is it weird to you? Why are we at a newsstand? Well, aren't they gone? Well, that's where they liaised. That's where they could just be like two people standing next to each other not having a conversation. Right. But is this like a thing in New York? Just like midnight, like late night news standing? I don't know. Just was... I think it is of a different time. Yeah, there were newsstands. That have multiple like library shelf type things.

There were those. They were going out quickly at that point. I'd be curious to know if the newsstands were in the like initial script or if It was a very, okay. Yeah. They were going out quickly at that point. I'd be curious to know if the newsstands were in the initial script or if it was a like, we need to come up with another place for them to be. Yeah. Well, I think what's important about it is that they can be two people who look like they're, they could be back to back. Just hanging out.

And somebody could slip somebody something else, could look illicit, like it could look like a drug deal. I'm just leaving this over here for you, you pick it up, no one will ever know. A lot of pussy galore lines, octopussy lines in this, where'd you land, where'd that land for you? Oh right, on my pussy counter? Yeah, how did you feel about not one but two pussies?

I forgot to put them on the counter. Get them on the counter. I mean, this was a one-two punch. How did you feel about it? I didn't even think about it. Really? Did you? I mean, I guess I want the word to be reclaimed, but it did jump out at me.

I was like, oh, okay. All right. Go, go Harvey, I guess. I don't know. I appreciate that. I appreciate that. Felt a little... Forced?

Yeah. I don't know why I'm uncomfortable with this word. I don't know. I got to examine that for myself. You want to talk it through? Check my bumps. Oh my God. Moving on. Act three.

Donna explains to Mike how employee codes, the evidence being used against Rachel, how they work at Pearson Hardman. We got a scene together. Yay! This is a scene for us to be together. Which we love. What's the thing you say to me right at the beginning of it that I thought was hilarious?

Donna, can you tell me about these confidential employee codes that Lewis has Rachel use to fax the witness list over to Wakefield Katie? I have a thousand things to do before lunch. Hold Mike's hand while he crosses the street. Not one of them. Oh snap. I love that line. What do you need? I know we use the billing codes to charge the clients, but what do we use the employee codes for? There are special codes for when you need to use the firm's resources for personal reasons. Great line coming up. So do you have a personal code? I have two. Boom. You look amazing in blue. What's going on with your hair in this episode too?

It has a very sort of beautiful disheveled vibe, especially in these later scenes in the episode. What's going on? I appreciate that you see it that way. I know that it probably has. No, I can't judge, cause you liked it. I like it. And I was like, what did I ever do

to those people in the hair? Oh no. I know this is, but like, you know, this is one of those, I'm enjoying a thing where it looks a little less perfect. Yeah, yeah. And it looks, it doesn't look messy at all, it just looks a little less perfect. And everything on this show is so perfect all the time.

It had, I don't know, some texture that I really liked. It had some movement. I like that you like that and I'm gonna embrace it. See, again, this is why we can't judge things for ourselves. So I wanna talk about something in this scene with the two of us. First of all, I was really excited that we had this beat together.

I just wanna play a game with you real quick. Go. How well do you know your friend Sarah? I think pretty well, go. How well did I know this movie reference? We have an IT department? Well, the computers don't run themselves. At least until Skynet goes active.

Say I'll call it on. No. No. I'll work on that. Really bad. Did I know it at all? Not well at all. You've never seen Terminator 2?

Do you? How well do you know your friends, sir? You've never seen Terminator. You've never seen either Terminator. You've never seen a single Terminator. Have I seen an Arnold Schwarzenegger movie? You've seen an Arnold Schwarzenegger movie. Maybe Twins, I don't know. I literally almost said Twins.

I knew if there was one, it was gonna be Twins. No, I actually haven't seen that. I do think my kids watched it, it was not too recently. Wait, wait, wait. You've never seen a Terminator movie? Nope. I watched the Arnold Schwarzenegger documentary on Netflix.

I thought it was very good. Yeah, I know. But so, when I was talking about Taxi Driver, when it was very good. Yeah, I know. But so when I was talking about Taxi Driver, when I was talking about Godfather, now here we are with Arnold Schwarzenegger. Do you think I see these movies? No, I get that you haven't. So I spent so much time trying to figure out this reference.

What do you mean? That I think I downloaded Terminator and tried to watch it. And how far did you get? Not far. Yeah. I just was like... Not far you. Not far. how far did you get? Not far. Yeah. I just was like. Not far you. Not far.

It's not far you. Not far. Not far you. Not far. Not for you. So I didn't get the joke, but it didn't matter. I figured it out. And also, I legitimately felt badly

because you did the Sarah Connor thing, and then you did this cool gun thing. And I personally, Sarah, think that you were good. So when we both, when I go no, and I turn away from you and I say that's bad, I legitimately remember this day on set, I felt bad putting you down. Because it was like very bro-y, like giving you shit.

Like, oh yeah, that sucked. But it was so not me, and I legitimately was like, that nice young actor, Patrick, who I like so much, just did that really well. That's kind of you to say. Yeah, this is an interesting thing. I have seen Terminator. I'm not an impressions guy.

Like, I don't, I'm not comfortable. Oh, that's hard to do. I mean, Schwarzenegger's hard. Well, I'm just in general, but I think a lot of people have a Schwarzenegger in the chamber, you know? They throw it down, and it's like a fun one for people to do. I'm like not the guy that jumps in to do that ever. What I do like about this one is that it's not good. Is that he's supposed to be bad at it?

That it's bad, that it doesn't work and that we embrace it. And then the joke of it is that you're like, yeah, that's not good. And I'm like, yeah, that's not good. And that's the funny of it. Like, and we're only going gonna get away with that once, you know, so I think happy to have it happen here. So Mike meets Benjamin, who runs the IT department and is in charge of the employee codes.

And oh my gosh, this is just, oh god, this scene is so good. Tell me about this scene. Do you remember shooting it? I remember shooting it. I remember the set being, cause it was like a whole set that I don't think we ever revisit, but they built this whole set for him,

for his, his worlds. He's amazing. He's so funny. He was on the show for 12 episodes. Fun fact, I just shot with him this summer. Say more, say more. I did an episode of a show called The Accused for Fox in Toronto,

where I was playing a tech bro. Uh-huh. Oh. And I had a scene with my lawyer in Wax David Rial playing my lawyer. Oh my gosh, no way. Yeah, he's fantastic. He is such a pro.

He's so funny and he's a big reason why I think this character showed up for 12 episodes. He's so funny. I also wanna say what this is bringing up is Rick has invented some really key characters in this episode. We have Travis Tanner, we have Jimmy, and Benjamin. Three characters who come back a bunch. There is something that happens when you're a writer

that creates characters that then end up coming back. What is it? You get paid more. Every time that then end up coming back. What is it? You get paid more. No. Like every time that character shows up, you get a little bump as a writer. Really? Yeah. So it was always like a competition.

I think in most writers' rooms, it's like competition, like who can create the character that comes back the most because you are forever attached to that character to some degree. I don't know what the amount is and I don't know that it's like a life-changing amount, but I think it's a real W on the board when you have characters that keep coming back. Oh my gosh, that's so interesting. I love that. I'm sure they've done away with that

in the recent years in some way. Yeah, no, I'm sure we've somehow found a way to raise that. Also, fun fact, we make a reference to Battlestar Galactica in this scene, which I know you've watched every episode of. Anyway, Felix Alcala directed, I think, a couple of episodes of the reboot, and he is our director here. So I don't know if that's why it ended up being in this episode, but that's just the

kind of behind the scenes stuff you're going to get here at Sidebar. You know what I'm saying? You're going to get this stuff. And then Mike calls Rachel to say that he knows who the real mole is, but she sends him to voicemail. She's currently interviewing at a rival firm. Whoa. And then Mike and Harvey head to the Waldorf

and they run into Tanner, who seemingly outmaneuvers Harvey. What did you think about this? Love to see the Royal York again. I know we're both fans of that hotel. There is a weird phone call moment. Yeah, that's what about that. Did you notice this? I did, I did.

He writes his number on the board, Harvey goes out and he walks away. Harvey goes after him. Tells Mike to erase. Erase the number. So the number's on the board for mere seconds. And then Travis Tanner's walking away. And then as he's walking away, his phone rings,

he picks it up and says, I'm sure someone's calling me now for the settlement. Picks it to his ear and then Harvey lifts his phone to his ear and it's Harvey calling. So what happened? Harvey either has Travis Tanner's number in his phone, programmed and without looking at his phone, dialed it. Or in the two seconds it was on the board,

he put it into his phone and then kept it by his side. Or he just straight up knew his phone number already and dialed it. Either way, I have questions. I think it's a fair and just quibble. It's a nitpick. It's a fair and just quibble. I'm quibbling.

Yeah. There, I have a third possible answer for you. Give it to me. Donna. Donna put it into his phone? Before the meeting. But then he would still need to know that it was in his phone. Exactly.

Like he would still need to look at it to call it. He might be ready. Who knows? He has speed dials like Jordan's speed dial 28. Yes. Or whatever. True, we did establish that. So maybe now that we know that the tennis playing douchebag is formidable foe,

Donna was quick enough to be like, he's number two on your phone. Like she just anticipated his need. Anticipated there would be a moment where he would need to call Travis Tanner. Who knows? I'm just saying, here's what I think really happened. I looked at the script. This scene was supposed to happen in the lobby. It was going to be in a different location. So there would have been a moment for them

to go down the elevator. So they go down the elevator and they come out and they're in the lobby and this moment happens. So in that time, we would have had time to get the number into Harvey's phone. But probably on the day, they didn't have time to set up in a whole new location. So they just had them kind of walk away from the crowd and shoot it over there, but they kept that moment in. Also, when he is writing it on the board, I went back and looked. You know, Harvey's out of the shot, so presumably. But he has a flip phone, so that would be very hard to do.

It's a flip phone, right? No, no, it looks like a little Blackberry or something. It's not like a little clam. And a little blank bearing. It's not a little clam, you, it looks like a little blackberry or something. It's not like a little clam Anyway, but hey, let's just I'm not I don't want it to ruin the episode. It's just like I got a quibble quibbles got a quibble. You know You gotta get haven't been a bunch you gotta give me Act 4, Harvey updates Jessica in her office about the case. He wants her help, but she says no. He needs to find another way. Great line alert.

You can have my faith, but you're not getting my money. I say that all the time. Yeah, I say that to you all the time. I say to Torian constantly, like once a day. Mike finds Rachel, tries to convince her to fight for her job at Pearson Hardman. She says no. She says, no. I like this scene. I like seeing anybody in this show in their casual wears.

Yeah. Do you know what I'm saying? I do. And I like this outfit for me. And I don't say that a lot. Yeah, you had like a weathered tee. Yeah, weathered tee and I had a collar that was popped up. What?

My collar was popped. That made me really not cool. I'm out, she's in a yoga outfit. Oh, on the street. Yeah, yeah. She's in a yoga, she's coming. Looks like she might be going to yoga because she doesn't look very post yoga.

She's got a nice glow. Okay, so Harvey and Vanessa meet again at the newsstand and she's tapped Tanner's phones and recorded an incriminating piece of evidence. But if he uses it, that would require Harvey to lie, which is something that he doesn't do. He says he will not perjure himself. What do you think about this this vibe that Gabriel's playing? Yeah, he's got like, what's going on with him? It's really intriguing, right? It's really good. What do you think it is? I wish he was here. I'm excited to maybe talk to him one day about the relationship with her

because it feels like he's trying to, like he says in the first scene, a spy, I wouldn't be able to pretend, and he seems to really be leaning into it. And he comes in and he says, money penny. And she says, don't call me that. And he says, why not? And she says, because she had a thing for him. And this is the other way around. Yeah. And I loved that opener to it. I love that that's who she was. She says because she had a thing for him and this is the other way around. And I loved that opener to it.

I loved that that's who she was. So I have something to say about what I think the vibe is that he's playing. It's a different side of Harvey that we haven't seen. And I think it's because her job in his life over the years has been to protect him, right? To get him the information that ultimately does protect him. She's just for him. And he's usually the person doing the protecting.

That's his love language. That's the purpose of his job. But now he's on the receiving end of that protection. And it opens up a kind of vulnerability in him to receive the love language that he's usually giving. It softens him in a way that is intriguing to us. And I would have liked to have seen more of Julianne because she's amazing,

because I think she can get lots of the Taurus awards. Yeah, for sure. And she plays it so simply, but so deeply. What do we remember from when she was on the, I don't remember which episode again, no short-term memory. She was in the pilot. The pilot, that was the only other one. I don't know why, but I felt like there was a moment of longing a little bit from her

in the pilot, like a longing moment or just maybe it was just in a look that said she wanted it to, but she won't. She knows better or something. It's not totally without her. She's interested, but she also knows I'm not gonna be that person for you. Anyway. All right, where were we? Oh, it says here Mike talks to Donna and shares his theory that Louis leaked the documents

and Donna tells him he's wrong. Louis is way too loyal for that. But there was another moment in here that you feel like needs more attention. You called me a prince among men because I brought you a little coffee treat. Oh, you are a prince among men. I just want you to look at me like that all the time.

Like, look at this hair. It's got a, like, sort of sexy, like... Post-coital look. It does suppose to be post-coital hair. Yeah, it really is. I'm into it. You know what? Survive.

I was worried that it just looked messy and weird, but it's kind of great. It's a vibe. It's kind of early 2010s. It's good. It's the girl. It's the girl. It's the girl. Oh my God, it's the girl. So I have a question here. It seems like, where are we with Rachel? Like, is she suspended or is she fired at this point? Because it feels like Donna would be way more upset

about the Rachel situation than she is necessarily. But I think that we haven't established that Rachel and Donna are best friends yet. Yeah, you're not really connected yet. I mean, you are, I'm sure you are, and we've seen, but it's not, you're right, it's not the way you are going to be later. Yeah, well, in the previous scene,

when you come up and you say it's about Rachel, she suddenly gives you your help. Oh, what is it? Like, you need help about Rachel? I'm it. I'm it. Like, of course. But here she's like, meh.

I think I was missing that work on like the Rachel of it all, cause I was still sort of saying, no, Louis is great. Like he loves the firm. I mean, she's an expert on personality. She understands what makes people tick. So she's like, he wouldn't do this.

Maybe it's just like keep trying, but it doesn't feel like it's a mistake. It seems like you're not suddenly care as much about getting to the solution. Yeah. Let's go back and reshoot that real quick. So in Harvey's office, Harvey's trying to figure out his next step.

Mike suggests considering what Harvey wouldn't do. And that gives Harvey an ah-ha moment. Mm-hmm. So. Jackets are off. You know that we're getting down to business. Anytime you see these guys without their jackets on, it's go time.

It's go time. Benjamin visits Mike in the bullpen. On his way out, he calls Jimmy Lewis. Mike realizes who the mole really was. I love this scene, and we learn a lot about Jimmy. And I think again, to your point, I like seeing Mike take control of the bullpen. And this is the moment where that comes to a head.

So I just really enjoyed this scene. I thought the writing was fantastic. Harvey and Mike meet with Tanner. Harvey threatens to use the recording to put Tanner in prison. Tanner admits defeat and signs the settlement agreement. Harvey wins. This scene was really good visually.

To me, I noticed that it was different. Obviously we both talked about how it comes in from behind the record albums, which must have been such a pain for them to figure out. Honestly, they set that up. But then there's this framing of Travis Tanner in profile with you kind of a little out of focus in the center of the frame. But it's all about Travis Tanner, which I think is really interesting. It sets up this tension. Yeah. This scene is beautifully shot. You're right. You've got Tanner in profile,

you've got Mike sitting next to him, you've got Harvey looking at him. So you have all these dynamics at play. It's like we've spent this entire episode being outsmarted by him, and finally we get into a scene where just by doing something very simple, putting Mike in one place and Harvey in another,

you can tell visually the story of Tanner suddenly being encircled and not being in control of the situation anymore, which I think is fascinating when you can do that just by where you put the people in the room and how you shoot it. Yeah, amazing. So I think we're about to get to one of my favorite scenes. Lewis offers Rachel her job back, but Rachel isn't satisfied until she receives a raise, the promise to pay for law school, and an apology. Rachel wins.

Tell me what you thought of this scene. Okay, this was the scene of the episode for me. Oh, cool. Tell me if you think this is right. Do you feel like Rachel is kind of embodying this revenge fantasy moment that so many of us can relate to, in terms of being not at the top of the food chain in a job situation,

in a corporate situation. And Megan's performance is so dropped in and is so grounded and so not angry. It's righteous. I couldn't agree more. And I, what you just said about her not being angry is a really good point. It could, there's a version of the scene

that's just vindictive and angry and putting him in his place in that way. And this is just like being strong, strong versus angry. She's right. Yeah, she's just right. She doesn't need to be angry because she's so right. And he is so, just a great counterpoint to that because he plays, when you corner Louis Litt,

he plays that so perfectly. Like he doesn't know, like he can just play. If you gave me as an actor the beats in this scene to play, which is on one sentence, you are the most confident person in the entire world. Don't you, what does he say? Don't you thread me. And he's so vicious, like he's so sure

he's the most powerful person in this room. And then literally on the next line, he's completely deflated and he's saying sorry. And he's like just eating crow. If you gave me those two extremes to play as an actor, it would be a mess. I wouldn't be able to do both. I would probably try to find something in the middle for both, right? So it didn't feel too big or, or too crazy that I'd make that turn. She's such a consistent, brilliant, righteous force. She's on her way to becoming a lawyer.

She's struggled thus far, Rachel. Like she hasn't quite had what it takes. It feels like by virtue of what's happened here, she's more prepared than ever to go be a lawyer. Yes, and that is why when we get to the next scene where we find that Mike is waiting for her, Mike is waiting in the dark for her to be done. He is not in any way, shape, or form sucking any air out of the room. This is her moment. She is going in there to save herself.

Righteously, she does not need a hero. She's coming back in, she needs a friend to just help her put the room back together. Right? There was something really feminist about this for me. It felt like Erin and Rick and Megan and Rick Hoffman and you were flying a flag that I really, really appreciated. If what you're saying is that Mike Ross is a feminist icon, I couldn't agree more.

And I think, you know, it's important that I do not want to gender these things all the time. But but for me, I just see it from that perspective, of course, from my own. We we always see things from our own experience. Right. Tell me what what Moraghi had to say. So he said, OK, I think you're right. Tell me what Meragi had to say. Okay, so he said, okay, I just rewatched that scene. I don't 100% remember all the writing of it,

but no doubt the final pass was Erin and me. I do remember we wanted Rachel to get more than just an apology. I had a boss once named Matt Nix, who always emphasized that two people in a scene need to each want something. It's writing 101 in some respects, but it's also helpful to remember.

So her just getting an apology isn't her quote wanting something from Lewis. And it felt like she needed to stand up for herself and show him she's not gonna get pushed around by him. Erin, I'm pretty sure thought of the, and all the shit you've pulled line. And this was the second time we, the writers, alluded to something in the past

that the audience doesn't know about. That's a big Erin thing. And I think it's great, and it became a signature part of the show. But back to the scene. I have a memory of Erin and myself doing the final pass and making sure that she didn't budge. It was very satisfying.

We always wanted to make sure she was strong and held her ground. Another tiny fun fact though, was that Rick Hoffman, who is a genius, did one take where he couldn't say, I'm sorry. He said, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm sorry. So okay, so he... I'm not gonna pretend to try to do it like Rick. I'm literally just reading it as it is. This is me just reading what's here in my text. This episode was being edited while Aaron was in Toronto shooting the finale. And because of the tight turnaround, I was

helping out in the edit bay alongside Jean Klein. Anyway, we had that take in the cut the first time around and Aaron wasn't totally sure about it. Or that's what I thought. And so we took it out and sent it to the network. then when Aaron saw we'd taken it out he was like wait where's the take where he can't say it? I said I thought you wanted it out and he said no he did actually really like it but then he felt like we couldn't add it back in because we had already gotten to the network with it. So I still mourn that

take because it was so genius. It was a miscommunication or Aaron changed his mind. So that is living with him still. Rick Meragi is thinking about a Rick Hoffman moment that didn't make the cut based on a miscommunication. But here's the silver lining. We get the threaten me moment. So let's play that. And one more thing.

You need to apologize to me right now now. I'm going to file a lawsuit against you first thing in the morning. You're right. I should have apologized. But don't you threaten me. I follow procedure to the letter and you have no basis for a lawsuit. No I don't. Not about this. But if you don't think I have a basis for a lawsuit. No, I don't. Not about this. But if you don't think I have a basis for all the shit you've pulled over the years I've been here, think again.

I'm sorry. Okay? It is informed by that. Yeah, it's still there. He can't get it. It's hard. He's choking on it. He's never said the word.

He doesn't know how to say it. Yeah. Yeah. It's still there. He can't get it. It's hard. He's choking on it. He's never said the word. He doesn't know how to say it. Yeah. Yeah. It's great. So it is a great take. I'm sure Rick Kaufman doesn't have a bad take.

So Rick Muragi, they're all good, but that is some fun inside baseball to know that you're still like feeling it. You still have it. Maybe we can see that. Release the Muragi cut. Yeah. All right. And then, yeah, and then our final scene was the one you mentioned where they're together

in the dark office unpacking. And I like that the scene's quiet and nothing is said and there's not any longing looks. It's not about them. It's just about two people being together. Because that would really diminish what she just did. Yeah, that would make it about somehow their relationship and has nothing to do with that. Yeah, this is about her journey in a different way.

Yeah. Well, there we go. That's the end of the episode. Wow, big one. Honorable mentions. You know, I think there's an embarrassment of riches here. We've got Rick Moragi. We've got some of Felix Alcala's amazing camera work.

We have David Rial. We have Pooch Hall. We have Eric Close. We've got the bullpen boys getting feisty. Rachel Zane's coming in hot, Donna Paulson's playing the blues, Harvey on his heels. Nice uncomplicated case that I could easily follow because my brain doesn't work properly,

but it still took some great twists and turns. So a lot of things to celebrate in Undefeated. What about you? I agree with everything that you said and I think there's one unsung hero here which is Vincent Loresca. He played Kenny and he really got me. I realized that I just totally bought him in that part

and he was so believable that he was in this heinous situation that I didn't ever really watch his acting. I didn't comment on his acting. We know that's what I do. I love actors. I love watching performances. This is what we're doing,

what we're having so much fun doing. And you think about how we were looking at the choices that David Riel made, for example, or this choice that we just talked about with Rick. But with Vincent, I was never watching that, I was just taken. And that was really a beautiful thing. So shout out to him.

Great. What about a goddamn? How many goddams do we get in this episode? Anything jump out at you? Zero. You're going zero? I'll go zero too. No, you're not allowed to.

Okay, I'll go one. Patrick, you're on a roll. There was one goddamn. Okay, that's one. What is that, our grand total? I wanna say 19. I am the fill in Kristen for today though, so she can confirm that later.

We do wanna send our love out to Kristen. She wasn't able to be here today and we feel her absence. Kristen, you're out in the world. Kiki, be well, We'll see you soon. Thank you for filling in, Kimmy. That was... Case closed. On Undefeated.

Thanks so much for listening, guys, and we will see you next week. Bye. As always, we wanna hear from all of you. If you have questions, thoughts, or ideas, please send your emails to sidebarpodcast at SiriusXM.com. And if you want to record an audio clip of the question, go for it.

We would love to play it on the show. Make sure to rate, review, and subscribe. It is such a great and important way for you to support the show. Sidebar is produced by Sarah Rafferty, Patrick J. Adams, and SiriusXM Media. Our senior producer is Kimmy Gregory, and our producer and researcher is Kristen Schrader. Our sound engineer is Alex Gonzalez and our music is by Brendan Burns. Our executive producers are Cody Fisher and Colin Anderson.