Significant Others - Bonus Episode: Heather Cox Richardson on Presidents and First Ladies

Episode Date: February 28, 2023

Significant Others is back with another bonus episode! Liza is joined by historian Heather Cox Richardson, host of the podcast Now & Then, and author of one of the most successful Substacks of all time, Letters From An American. Heather and Liza dive into presidential marriages and ask, who was the best love match? Which overlooked first ladies deserve some more credit? And which presidential relationships were doomed from the start?We’re working hard on Season 2! Until then, we will be releasing special bonus episodes from time to time. Want to support the show? Rate and review wherever you listen to your podcasts and keep sending suggestions of Significant Others you’d like to hear about our way at [e-mail]!

Welcome to Significant Others. I'm Liza Powell O'Brien. And just because I'm deep in research for season two doesn't mean we have to stop bringing you stories of interesting plus ones. Over the last few months, we've talked with some incredible guests, including Pulitzer Prize-winning author Stacey Schiff about how Samuel Adams could be called the significant other of the American Revolution, and Dana Schwartz of the podcast Noble Blood about royal spouses throughout history. This month, in honor of President's Day, we thought it would be fun to ask historian, author, and professor Heather Cox Richardson about presidential marriages, the better and the worse.

Heather, I am so thrilled to be talking with you today. Thank you so much for being here. Oh, I'm so happy to be here. It's going to be such fun. For anyone who might not already be familiar with your sub stack, Letters from an American, could you tell us a little bit about it? I write every day about the history behind the news and what's happening that looks significant to me

in the news. And I try and look back at it as a historian looking from a vantage point of 100 to 150 years from now. So a lot of what I pull out often is not what is appearing in the news. And the things that do appear in the more common news are things that I might explain slightly differently as part of a larger pattern. So it's kind of honestly, I started doing it to answer people's questions about what was happening under the Trump administration. But in many ways, for me anyway,

it's a way to keep my feet under me so I can make sense of the different things that are happening. So I write it for the world. I write it to my college roommates, to be honest. But I write it so that my feet anyway, and I help other people's feet as well, are under them. It's such a brilliant framework. And it makes me think, when you say all of that, it makes me think about my daughter, who was a senior in high school last year. And so she was a junior and she was doing AP practice when January 6th happened. And she was writing all these document-based questions

preparing for the AP test. And she said, I'm living through something that some kid is going to have to write a document-based question about in the future. And I was like, what a cool way to think about what you're going through, which is exactly what you just described. I often think, when I think about what I'm going to include or not, I think about a graduate student in 100 to 150 years. And there was one night I was exhausted

because the letters actually take me a huge amount of time. I can only imagine. I think of that every time I read them and they're all sourced and cited and it's very meticulously done and they're daily. Yeah. Yeah. And lately I'm tired enough that I've been making stupid errors, you know, putting the presidential election of 2020 and 2022, for example. But I was exhausted. And one big thing had happened. And somebody said to me, just go to bed, just just go to bed, you can do it tomorrow. And I thought, and that poor graduate student in 150 years is going to be like, I can't

wait to see what Richardson says about this. And she's going to find out I went to bed. I'm not doing that to her. I didn't write much. But so many times that happens to historians where, you know, you're you've got the moment and something really crucial is happening. where you've got the moment and something really crucial is happening, and your diarist says, oh man, my horse went lame and I spent the day on the couch. And you're like, no, no, get off the couch. I want to know what happened. I ran out of ink. Yeah, exactly. Well, my question for you, because this podcast looks at intimate relationships of consequence, and when I think about what a presidential marriage must be like, I imagine it's quite

peculiar. And so I thought that you might have some good anecdotes about particularly interesting presidential marriages. So first, I don't know if you have thoughts in general on the subject of what it is that characterizes a presidential marriage. good relationships, the couples who adored each other. And there are certainly some of those I could tell you about. But then there are those spouses who actively really help their, in this case, until now, husbands' presidencies. And those are divided to me into two camps, the people who help the presidencies, first of all, by getting their husband into the presidency. And then there are the others who really help the president by managing to appeal to a completely different constituency than the president himself does. And those are really important relationships.

And then there are those people who are sort of neutral. They might not be into politics at all. And if their husband wants to run off and be a president, that's just fine with them, but they're not going to participate that much. And they're kind of not necessarily a drag, but not necessarily a help. And then there are the presidential spouses who actively work against their husbands. And I find them fascinating. Oh, I can't wait to hear about that. and I find them fascinating. Oh, I can't wait to hear about that. There's this whole spectrum and why you would do that.

So anyway, tell me what you'd like to hear about. And then of course, there's not that we've talked about, but that to me is almost more interesting is the relationship between people and their parties, which is not, there's not a wedding ring on it, but by God, some people are more committed to their parties than they are to their significant others. I would imagine, and the job itself, and then I was thinking also about, you know, President Kennedy and wondering, like, who would you even characterize as his significant other in terms of his, you know, his full arc? Is his father? Like, who, you know, his wife obviously

was a big deal, but who made him who he was that's a whole other question but but i'd love to go back through everything that you just listed and talk about like okay who are the ones who are love matches who are the ones who are just like delightful companions for each other well if that's where you want to start the the obvious place and now i'm laughing at myself because this is something that probably isn't on most people's radar screens on a daily basis, but James Garfield and his wife, Lucretia, adored each other, adored each other. And their early marriage had been quite rocky. He was a philosopher, really smart man, college professor, really thoughtful, and crazy handsome.

So every time they do one of those historical hottie things, everyone's always like, ooh, look at young Garfield. And she was much, much quieter and much more religious, also a very beautiful woman. And she wasn't so sure he was such a great idea. And he talked her into marrying him. There's a great picture of the two of them when he was courting her and he manages essentially to wiggle into the photograph in such a way that he's next to her. And so they get married and he spends a great deal of time away from her

and gets romantically involved with another woman. And it looks like the relationship is not gonna heal as so many do not. And it's actually really interesting. She's, she's a brilliant woman as well. And she, the two of them work it out and he becomes, they become, and I think to some degree, him even more than her becomes profoundly committed to each other. And he like, he can't, he, he wants just to be with her all the time. He wants to be with the kids. They write letters back and forth all the time. When he first goes into the White House in

1881, she probably gets malaria from the Potomac, and he is beside himself that he might lose her, which is incredibly ironic because he's just recovering from malaria when he is assassinated. But they adored each other. And then the other one that always springs to mind on that one, not to say that others didn't like each other, is Julia Dent Grant and her husband Ulysses S. Grant. And once again, they adored each other. And one of my great favorite stories about that is she was born with the condition where your eyes cross, which was considered very unattractive at the time. And she refused to have surgery done to correct it.

Like in the 19th century, this is before they knew about germ theory. So who would want someone coming at your eyes with a knife in that era and the potential for blindness? And she declined it. But this made her perceived at the time as unattractive and grant of course was a good looking man and um when he becomes and he adored he adores her i mean you hear stories about the fact that he drank he did drink when he was away from her and when he was bored one of the reasons he leaves the army is because he's just sitting out there on the frontier drinking and it's not a good scene. She's from a wealthy background. He is not.

And anyway, he comes back to her and she really pushes him into the presidency. And when he becomes president and they're going to be very visible, she starts to think about having her eyes operated on. And he writes her this letter and says, I fell in love with you, with your eyes the way they are. I think you are beautiful. Don't you dare go changing for other people. You know, I might not like you so much if you decide to go ahead and change according to other people's wishes. And so she didn't. And that's why you always see her in profile. But, you know, their relationship was also a really, really loving one.

I had no idea. That is fascinating. And okay, and so then we have talked on this podcast about Mary Todd Lincoln and how, you know, she was such a complex character in so many ways, but how essential she really was to his political career. And then I also gleaned from the biography series on the Reagans, the fact that it was Nancy's father-in-law who really impacted Ronald Reagan's

political ideology in a way that was news to me. So who else in that vein comes to mind for you? One of the people that we often tend to overlook and who's incredibly important is William Howard Taft's wife, Nellie. And believe me, he's not the only one. And we obviously have to talk about Eleanor Roosevelt. But if you think about William Howard Taft, he was a guy who cared about the law. I mean, his idea of a good time was to sit around in a cloistered room talking about the law and its intellectual implications with a bunch of his friends, like the Supreme Court, right? Which is his idea of the highest place one could go would be to the Supreme Court. She is a really interesting character. She's only 17 years old when she decides that

what she really wants to do more than anything else is to become first lady. This is in the 19th century. It's not like she can go be president herself. So she decides she's going to be first lady. And she essentially picks out William Howard Taft as a man who could be president. And she is the person who directs his career. She is the person who figures out his policies. She's the person who has the social connections and makes the social connections to move his way up the ladder. And she's really the brains behind that couple, although most people probably have never heard of her. Her name was Helen. She went by Nellie. And the kicker is when you think about Taft, lots of people think about

the bathtub, which itself is interesting, but people think about he's kind of ineffectual. Well, why was he ineffectual? Because about two months after he takes office, Nellie has a stroke and he wanders around that White House going, what am I going to do? Like, what am I going to do? Like, she's the one who tells me what to do. What am I going to do? And I like her because people don't know about her. But Eleanor Roosevelt does something very similar for FDR. Yeah. I mean, she's probably one of the best known companions to a president. And I find their story so interesting for a number of reasons. But the fact that they were in a marriage that was not really a happy marriage, right?

It was not a, I mean, it was a functional partnership in a way. But I don't know that I would want to be in a marriage like that. Well, you started with what do those marriages look like and what is a significant other? And there everybody argues till they're blue in the face about the two of them. But again, she's a really important influence on his decision to stay in politics after he's stricken with polio. You know, his mother, to whom he was very, very close and who was a real, I won't say it, put it that way. She was a difficult woman and had a huge influence on the fact that Eleanor and FDR had such a rocky marriage because she really treated Eleanor like, you know, the breed, the breeder and nothing much else. And, you know, and it really frustrated Eleanor liked, you know, the breed, the breeder and nothing much else, you know, and it really frustrated Eleanor. She wanted FDR to quit his attempts at politics and just go be a, you know, an old, rich, sit-in-the-country kind of guy.

guy. And Eleanor, at that point, really broke away from Sarah and pushed her aside and convinced him to stay in the political arena. And then, I mean, it's a really interesting thing, much like Nellie Taft, she couldn't become president herself, but because FDR couldn't really do the kind of campaigning that one needed to do, she did it for him. So she's the one out front. She's the one out there canvassing the country. She's the one who really becomes really his right-hand person, although a lot of biographies give her less credit and give more to some of the other people in FDR's sphere. But you say, you know, helpful presidential spouses that you would want to mention? Well, it sounds like you've done Mary Todd. She is enormously important. Well, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, even though we've talked about her. Your thoughts might be more valuable than whatever I've had to say. So remember that Mary Todd is very well connected. She is connected to Henry Clay, who is really the head of the Whig

Party, which is the party to which Abraham Lincoln belonged. And Lincoln is nobody. Lincoln has come up from literally a dirt cabin that did not have all four sides in it when they lived in Indiana before they moved to Illinois in between Kentucky and Illinois. And he doesn't have the connections he needs. And one of the big things in the 19th century for politicians in that era was to marry into a social circle that would give you a leg up. Traders did the same thing. You married into families, essentially. So scoring Mary Todd was a really big deal, and she had very, very good political instincts. Lincoln did too, but they were different political instincts. So one of the things that he was terrible at was understanding the importance of social status. So you always hear about the cost of her redecorating

the White House and how this proved she was a spendthrift and all that. The story behind that is a really interesting one in that what was at stake was that Lincoln's Secretary of the Treasury, it was a guy named Salmon P. Chase, just desperately wanted to be president. I mean, he wanted to be president more than anything. And boy, I could tell you stories about him and what he did to do that. But his daughter, Kate Chase, was the belle of the ball in Washington. And she also wanted her father to become president. So when they moved to Washington at the beginning of the Civil War, she redid that home to be really beautiful, like really fancy. And Mary Todd Lincoln recognized that if they had a beautiful home, and the White House was

incredibly shabby at the time, it hadn't been redone in forever, that everybody would go over and hang out with the Chases, and Salmon P. Chase would basically become the head of the government, and Lincoln would be in a backwater. So Mary Todd redoes the White House as well to make sure that people will congregate there. Now, here's the kicker. It's expensive to do both of these redoings, and Mary Todd Lincoln had, you know, grew up with wealth, so she knew how to do it right. And when the bills came due during the civil war the congress and and democrats who loathed lincoln were like oh look at this spendthrift the soldiers are out there starving to death they weren't by the way but there was a shortage of money that you know and here she is

just pouring money into the white house this is this proof she's a confederate because of course she was from the south and she had brothers fighting for the Confederacy. This just proves how terrible she is and on and on and on. Kate Chase also had no money. Sam and Pete Chase had no money either. And Jay Cook, who becomes the key banker for the Union during the war, picks up her bills. Wow. And that doesn't become a scandal. picks up her bills.

So, and that doesn't become a scandal, but it's like, nobody ever hears that part of it that they just hear that she spent all the money on the White House. Well, it was really deeply political for her to do that. And because Lincoln was not corrupt

and Sam and Pete Chase was perhaps not as clean as he ought to be, you never hear about that side of it. But yeah, so Cook goes on to become kind of the pet banker for the union. Fascinating. Yeah, I missed that part of it. But yeah, so Cook goes on to become kind of the pet banker for the union. Fascinating. Yeah, I missed that part of it. It's good to know.

Yeah. One of your recent newsletters is coming to mind, and it's the one about Theodore Roosevelt and how his marriage ultimately influenced his political ideology. Would you mind doing a recap of that for us? It's such a good story. Oh, that was his first wife. That was his first wife. So that's interesting. Theodore Roosevelt married somewhat unexpectedly, not the one that everybody expected him to. That's going to be his second wife. And he marries Alice, this woman named Alice, and he adores her. It's a fast relationship, but he becomes sort of besotted by her. Anyway, she gets pregnant and moves back to New York City to live with his mother, her mother-in-law, in law and has a baby in the the second week of february of 1884 and he hears about the baby being born he's actually at the legislature hears about the baby being born and he's all excited but

the telegram says that she's doing um what's the word they use she's fair i think is what they use she's not doing all that well well Well, it turns out that she has what they called at the time Bright's disease, which is some unspecified kidney illness, which I was writing about him at one point, and I went to doctors and said, what is this? And the doctors that I consulted said it was probably a strep infection that came out of the tenements. And so that day, both she and The roosevelt's mother die she also dies of a different disease that probably came out of the tenements and so he loses his wife and his mother in the same day and he uh puts a big black x in his diary and says the light has gone out of my life he refuses

ever to mention alice again and he ends up somewhat after that, later on in the year, going out to Dakota, which was then the Dakota territories before they were split into North and South Dakota, and becoming a rancher. He had property out there. But the reason that that becomes significant is to some degree twofold. he recognizes that the problems of overcrowding in New York City have, especially after the in the next few years, when they really start to understand germ theory, must be addressed, or people like him, even though they have money are going to continue to lose their loved ones. The other thing that jumps out about that is that while he never mentions his wife any longer, they do have this daughter and he gives the daughter to his sister to rear and then he goes

off and then he does marry a second time and they come back and they take the baby. Basically, this child is now like three or four, it's old enough to know what's going on. They basically say, well, you're ours now. And that's going to be Alice Roosevelt, the one who becomes so famous in the late 19th and early 20th century for basically saying whatever she thinks and having such an influence on the way people think about politics. So that very famous quotation when Theodore Roosevelt is getting grief because people say, you need to control your daughter better. And he says, I can either be president of the United States or control Alice Roosevelt, but I can't do both. Then though, the woman he marries is not

terribly interested in politics. So she's kind of like, you know, whatever, I don't have the political bug, you go do you, which is kind of weird coming out of Theodore Roosevelt's spouse, if you think about it. I mean, it sounds scripted. You know, it's crazy. Okay. And then for the segment of presidential spouses who fall into the, I guess, unhelpful would be the kind way to put it, the undermining category. Who are we talking about? Okay, my favorite is Franklin Pierce's wife, Jane Pierce. Why they ever got married was beyond everybody's comprehension from the beginning. She is extremely religious. She is raised in a Puritan household. She's deeply spiritual, teetotaler, not part of this world. And she marries Franklin Pierce. And they court for a long time. It's not sudden. She marries Franklin Pierce, who is a heavy drinker, partier, political bug. and what they were doing with each other from the beginning

was beyond anybody. Anyway, they have three children, and she wants no part of him going into politics. She makes him, not makes him. They discuss it, and he leaves the Senate. He drops out of the Senate at one point. He doesn't run for re-election to the Senate, and she's very happy because she thinks she's gotten him out of the dirty world of politics. Well, unbeknownst to her, he continues to participate in politics, and he gets nominated for the presidency in 1822, and she is freaking beside herself, okay? Because if you don't want your husband involved in politics, it's one thing if he runs for the local school board, but he's, he's just gotten the nomination for president. Now this is a sad and horrible story, but so I said they had three kids, they had three boys,

two of them die as infants and one's an infant, one's a little bit older. And they have one child left. And she, after the two older ones die, spends all of her time doting on this kid. Like, she doesn't do housework. He actually hires a couple to take care of her and the kid because she won't do anything except concentrate on this kid's spiritual growth. And she reads her Bible all the time. And she's constantly examining everything her Bible all the time. And she's constantly, you know, examining everything that happens in the world. And she thinks that everything bad that happens has a meaning. And it's a meaning that has to do with her personally or her life personally. You know where this is

going, right? They're in a train, she and Franklin and the boy, Benny, Benjamin, are in a train, and the axle of the train breaks. And their car is the only one that gets thrown off the tracks, but it gets thrown off the tracks down an embankment. And she and Franklin walk away, basically. Benny is not only killed in front of them, he is pretty much decapitated. She's watching as this happens.

Oh, Jesus. So she turns around and says, this is your fault. Yeah. completely holds against him the fact that their child died in front of them because of his political ambitions. And I suspect that was a real hard thing to overcome. Oh, man. Sounds like it. Okay. Is there anyone else? That's a pretty extreme example of disinterest, to say the least, in a spouse's political career. is there anyone who was actively working against their spouse in the White House, like trying to change their affiliation or bonding with the opposite party or anything like that? No. With the caveat that I watched Melania Trump with great interest, because one of the things that most presidential spouses do is they

try not to embarrass their spouse. They might embarrass their spouse, but they try not to. And there was never any doubt in my mind that Mrs. Trump was very aware of her body and the way she carried it and what she did with that, with her actions. And when she would slap his hand away or walk in front of him or would clearly not be willing to have space with him when she refused to move to the White House at the beginning of his term, those were all things that were really unusual. of his term, those were all things that were really unusual. So when other spouses, for one reason or another, couldn't participate or didn't want to participate in the White House, there was usually some way to cover that up by saying, she's in mourning, or she's pregnant. I mean,

Jackie Kennedy had to walk away from at least one political campaign because she was pregnant and she'd had a hard time losing children. So there was always some way for people to be able, even if they were being mean, to say, it's not about the marriage, that person really likes the spouse. But I just remember that hand slap and thought, wow, that just went on to international television. And that really surprised me. So that one, I think, wow, that just went onto international television. And that really surprised me. So that one, I think, is the one that really jumps out to me there. Fascinating. Do you think that it is inherently a disadvantage for a president of whatever gender to be unattached, to be single. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

For two reasons. One, one of the things that presidential spouses can do is they can focus other people's hatred, which sounds weird. Great. That's such a great way to put it. Well, but, you know, let's pick on Lincoln, although you can certainly think of more recent examples. If you were really mad at Lincoln,

you could blame Mary Todd. You could complain about her the same way you can complain about a chief of staff, for example. So that's one thing that's really important. But the only reason that I spend not an insignificant amount of time thinking about presidential spouses is that they do permit a president to have much wider coverage than they otherwise would. So, for example, Eleanor Roosevelt could be actively supporting Black rights and Asian American rights and women's rights and could be out there, you know, singing songs with the Bonus Army, could do all kinds of things that FDR could then sort of back off from

and say, well, I'm making a law that promotes social security, but we're going to set it up in such a way that basically sharecroppers don't get into any of the benefits. So he could play both sides of coins. And that is hugely important. And you saw that with Eleanor Roosevelt, of course. But Betty Ford, another great example of somebody who gave her husband an image of being sort of fun and out there and far more in tune with the modern world in terms of backing the ERA and talking about breast cancer and even things like going into rehab at a time when her husband could never do those things, even though actually at the time, alcoholism in the elected offices was rampant. But she was the wife, so she could go get treatment when others couldn't. So having somebody to cover your bases is incredibly important,

both as a way to focus hatred and as a way to give you a whole range of things that you can either embrace or disavow depending on what the political winds are doing that day. I'm just realizing we have not talked about the Clintons at all, which is, you know, we don't have to, but I just, they come to mind in that aspect for sure. And I wonder on balance where that partnership lands in terms of harm versus help. Me too. I mean, it's pretty clear how it lands on her side, but for him, how much did she help? I mean, clearly she was formative in his life. And he certainly gave people a lot of things to be upset about on his own. But she was not a negligible aspect of his presence in the White House, clearly.

in the White House, clearly. So my take on that relationship is perhaps a little bit removed in the sense that she became a foil for the radical right as it rose. And if you think about that era, the 90s, that was the period almost immediately after there is such a push against the idea of women working outside the home women being independent in their own right women's equality all the things that had really taken off in the 1960s and into the 1970s and then i think it's in 1974 that we get the television show little house on the prairie which really reinforces the idea of women as wives and mothers. 1973, we get the Roe versus Wade decision, which suggests, permits abortion in the first trimester. And there is after that an emphasis among the radical right on the idea that women advocating abortions are rejecting traditional roles. roles. By the 1990s and the rise of talk radio, there is the sense that any woman who doesn't want to be a wife and a mother is somehow a feminazi. Hillary Clinton embodied all of that for the radical right. And so I think she became a lightning rod that had, in many ways, nothing to do with their relationship so much as being a powerful, intelligent, educated,

progressive-looking woman in an era when they were looking for someone to attack. And she was that, is still that person. I wonder if there's any particular example that comes to mind, it's totally fine if not, of a person who was formative in the life of president who did not happen to be their spouse? Oh, heavens, yes. I mean, that's the funny thing about politicians. They're a different group than many others. So maybe a better question would be, is there a politician for whom their spouse was the most important influence in their lives? That's a harder question that I would have to think more about. But yes, you know, so many of them look to the, in the 19th century, to the male world,

and in the 18th century, to the male world in which they are operating for the most part. And, you know, when you don't even really get the idea of bonding that tightly with a spouse until the late 19th century, that's one of the reasons that Julia Dent stands out as much as she does. And even Mary Todd Lincoln stands out as much as they do. So, yeah, I would say that significant others more often are mentors or peers than the other way around. I was listening to your episode of your podcast about chiefs of staff and wondering if that, you know, realizing, okay, well, you know, and I'm thinking of like George W. Bush and Dick Cheney. And, you know, there are, I'm sure, multiple instances of relationships that are quite long and formative in that vein. But I have one final question, which is, how do you think that the public conception of a presidential marriage might fundamentally shift in the event that there is a non-male president one day, which, please God, let us be headed there? general view of either that relationship or marriages in general to have a very public example of one where the gender balance and power balance is either inverted or shifted or kind of blown up? I think that's actually a great question. And just, I want to start with a caveat that I am a prophet of the past, not the future. So I can tell you a lot about the past, and anything I say about the future, that and five bucks will get you a cup of nice coffee.

But I do think that we will not get that change in the White House until we have a change in our concept of the way power works in our society, which I do think is changing, by the way. But one of the ideas of sort of the father of our country, which itself is a really interesting idea, is one that this country is based in a patriarchal system that has a certain hierarchy to it. And gender is one of those things, race is another, class is a third, whatever you want to throw in that mix of hierarchies, you will find there. Now, that right now is a system that a certain group of people in this country are fighting up people who are not part of that traditional power structure are starting to say, well, wait a minute, that's not actually the reality of our

world, especially younger people. So if in fact, and I would say when in fact, somebody is elected to the presidency who is not an older white male, that's going to come with it already some different ideas about power and about what it's appropriate for a spouse to do. It's not a question of flipping the gender roles. It's a question of changing the way we look at society from a quite hierarchical, patriarchal one to one where power is shared in really different ways than it was before. So I guess I'm saying my guess is there'll be a lot of changes and they'll go from being linear to being, I hate to do this to you, circular. Well, I'll buy that cup of coffee, $5 or no, that sounds good to me. I don't want to take up any more of your time.

I know you've got a lot of writing to do, but thank you so much for talking with us today. You really bring history to life for me every day, and I'm just so grateful for that. Oh, I'm glad. If you haven't done so already, please check out Heather's sub stack. It's called Letters from an American,

and her podcast, which she hosts alongside fellow historian Joanne Freeman, is called Now and Then, and it's available wherever you get your podcasts. We'll continue releasing bonus episodes right up until season two comes out. So be sure to hit the subscribe button. And as always, we welcome any and all suggestions for upcoming episodes. You can email us at significantpod at gmail.com. Thanks so much for listening.