Single Ladies In Your Area - Boundaries with Michelle Elman (aka The Queen of Boundaries)

Episode Date: January 3, 2025

This week Harriet and Amy and joined by The Queen of Boundaries Michelle Elman to help answer the question, what is boundary? How do you set them? And how do you not accidentally stomp all over everyone else’s boundaries? Check out Michelle's books, podcast and more at michelleelman.com. Support the podcast and enjoy early and ad-free listening, BTS content and more by subscribing to our Patreon at patreon.com/singleladiesinyourareaWe want to hear your dating stories! Email in at [e-mail] Single Ladies In Your Area on Instagram @singleladiespodAnd follow Michelle on Instagram @michellelelman.Recorded and edited by Aniya Das for Plosive.Photos by Matt Crockett and Linda Blacker.Design by Welcome Studio. Get bonus content on Patreon Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Amy Gledhill. And I'm Harriet Kemsley. We're both single and in our 30s. And we've found ourselves back on the dating scene. And the landscape has changed. Everyone has settled down. But we're back out there. And we're desperately trying to figure out what the hell we should be doing.

So we're going to speak to experts, chat about dates we've been on. If we manage to get any. And share your tips and horror stories. So we all feel less alone we might even get our exes on yeah we'll see about that this is single ladies in your area okay so this episode i'm gonna share my first date story we speak to michelle elman the queen of boundaries you ever set a boundary? Never in my life. No, me either.

But let's learn how to do it, I reckon. Yes, please. Sound pretty important to me. Yes. Never too late to learn in your mid to late 30s what a boundary is. We're back and already there's an atmosphere in the room. I don't feel like we're coming into today with amazing energy. No.

To do with dating. We men are not feeling great. We lost the war. No, no, no. We've lost battles. We've lost this battle. But we shall rise again. We shall rise again like a phoenix, like sad, tired phoenix.

I'm so glad that we have each other and we have this podcast because it's so lonely and hard. Yeah. How is your day, Amy? Oh, so this is day one. This is my first ever day off an app. I was nervous. I was really nervous. And I didn't know, like, to what extent to put energy into it. You know what I mean? So I like, I'd done things like, I got my nails done. And yeah, I was like, sort of excited all day.

They look really nice, by the way. Thank you so much. In the message where I was sobbing. I sent a video messaging. Oh, God. So we'd message like, on and off for for ages now and he's so good at chat he's so funny and then it was like my one night off of what the month the year it feels like so I was you know it wasn't like a Friday night because of that Chapel Rowan song where she's

like don't waste a Friday night on a first date I'm learning from these from these Gen Z's it was like a Wednesday but it was my only night off I could only meet him from nine I'm sorry I feel like I'm on a rollercoaster

that's just about to like dip really badly I feel kind of queasy click click click click click click click oh my god and I said to him you I'd pick the date and time I was like you pick where we go and

I said where I lived whatever I lived and I was like let's meet somewhere in the middle but you know you pick and he was like yep I can do that and I was like fuck amazing love this then on the day he hadn't messaged where we're going and I was like he probably like he's probably at work so I won't I won't like think about it until like 6pm. We're not meeting until 9. And it got to like 6, it got to 7. And I was like, huh. And I didn't want to message him like,

excuse me, mister, where are we going? So I was like... Even though that would be so valid. That would be so valid, I know. I don't want to ruin his day by just asking for basic information about what we're doing. He's a busy guy. He's a man, he's a businessman. I don't want to get in day by just asking for basic information about what we do. He's a busy guy. He's a man.

He's a businessman. I don't want to get in the way. Do you know what? He's definitely not a businessman. There's no business happening near this boy. Luckily, my friend who lives right near me, she messaged me like, oh, I'm just by your house. What are you doing? And I was just like, come over.

I was like, I'm getting ready for a date that I actually don't know if it's going to happen. Come over. She wanted, she'd actually left her house to get a hot chocolate. The place was closed. I was like, I've got hot chocolate. And I was like, yeah, he's still not messaged.

And then I was like, oh, he's messaged. She's messaged. The message, which I could, I mean, I can just read you the messages, I suppose. But he messaged, I would say 20 past seven. Getting late. I have to start at eight. Well into messaged, I would say, 20 past seven. It's getting late. I have to start at eight. Well into the evening.

We're into the evening. He says, hey, hey, apologies for the slow reply. There is a possibility that I dropped something heavy on my left toe during a DIY repair operation. And then I may have possibly lost my balance due to said toe pain and fell over and hurt my left palm. Overall, pain, bruises. Look, as a dyspraxic, I get it.

These things happen. And the problem is, you're so kind, you'll be like, oh my God, I'm so sorry that you dropped something on your toe. Well, what I actually replied, I replied i put wowee what an elaborate excuse because i was like what level of bullshit is this and then he said which i thought was funny he said i'm either honest or a complete sociopath i can still meet but i may have self-medicated with whiskey it's definitely working because I feel three thumbs up right now he's still being kind of funny

yeah then there was like a back and forth it was like funny and it was fine and he was still just like yeah yeah yeah and things happen in life

things happen in life you drop things on your toe it's not it's not mad that that would happen you think I haven't dropped a wardrobe on my own foot of course I have

and you would still go on that date I would still go on that date and it's the sort of thing where it's like oh he's in pain and he wants to go on the date so much he's been such a trooper self-medicating i think he's in love with me so i said to my friend right his message we're gonna meet found a place to go i was like i'm gonna get ready and then he sent me his phone number because this had just been on the app and he sent me his phone number and I was like okay and I messaged him so he had mine and then he started calling me but I was like getting ready and I was a bit like oh no I don't really I hate talking on the phone yeah I was like oh I'm gonna meet you in like 40 minutes and then I sort of messaged just going oh um everything okay I'm just sort of getting ready and then and then I'm gonna set off and he message just going oh everything okay

I'm just sort of getting ready and then and then I'm going to set off and he was just like oh yeah yeah yeah just give me a call and just I've made some

he's talking about the food he's made and then like a lot of messages come in like a lot of messages like mad kind of mad messages about what he's eating and the rice

alright this rice is 10 out of 10 for me but I like you a lot. So you're at least a 25 out of 10. Anyway. Better than rice. Wow. Better than rice.

So I was like, it is love. I nearly just set off to the pub and then I was like, I should call, I'll just call him because actually it'd be kind of nice to, I think Charlene or somebody

that we've had on said, you can get a real vibe. So I was just like, I'll just ring him. Like I literally was putting my shoes on. Thank God for Charlene. Thank God for Charlene. Oh my God, Charlene, we owe you our lives.

Putting my shoes on and I was like, oh, I'll just ring him as I'm like, just to like check he's okay. I would say the first 10 seconds of the phone call were fantastic. So he answered, I didn't even know what accent he had. He answered, great accent. And he went, hey, like accent. And he went, hey,

like this. And I went, hello. And he went, I've not finished saying hey yet. And I was like, be my guest. And he was like, hey. And I was like, this is fun. I like this. We're laughing. Then it transpired in this phone call that, thank God I had, that he was the drunkest man I'd ever listened to. He couldn't follow the conversation. He was getting quite angry with me for a lot of things. And I was just like, are you joking? He was just like, am I joking or am I just an asshole? And I was like, oh, right.

And literally, like, I had my shoes on and my car, and I just sat down on the sofa and we started having this conversation and i was just like oh my god you're a nightmare you're an actual nightmare and i kept being like hey so i mean like how much whiskey have you had and she's like ah i don't know i don't oh god i've fallen off the chair. It's just like, oh, my God. I was like, okay, I'm going to go. And he's just like, oh, yeah, you don't want to talk to me? I'm just like, oh, my God.

He's like, no, I don't want to talk to you. He's like, oh, yeah, I get it, I get it, I get it. Oh, right, but when will you be talking to me again? Why are you still talking to me? I'm an asshole. And I was just like, believe what they say. Listen to what they say. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I was like, okay. I was literally taking my shoes off. Oh, Amy. Being like, okay. We must have talked for about 25 minutes because I couldn't get him off the phone and he's going you still want to meet and I was like no no I I don't want to meet if that's okay and he's just like yeah well this is typical isn't it and you know it felt like you know the guys who like message women and go,

oh, you're so pretty. Oh, I love you. You're so pretty. And then they go, like, I'm not interested. And they go, do you know what? You're an ugly bitch. It felt like that kind of vibe. Like he was being like very weirdly like aggressive.

It's like he was angry with me. And I was like, oh, this is awful. And then I was like, okay, I'm going to go now. I'm going to go now. And he was just like, hey, where are you from? And I was just like, is awful and then I was like okay I'm gonna go and I'm gonna go now and he was just like hey where are you from and I was just like oh the north of England

and he was like I'll say a letter you say yes or no and then I'll guess it and I was just like I don't want to play this game he's like

I was like he was going A and I was like no B and I was like I am was going, A. I was like, no. B. I was like, I am going to go now.

Just off. Just off. Hung up. But before I got on, he was going, you're not going to message me. I really like you. Wait, what is he trying to guess?

Where I'm from. Hull or Yorkshire. He's just saying letters. Yeah. He's not even guessing places. Harriet, this is how junk he was. He couldn't have waited

until H as well. And then we'd do it all again to get to U and then all again to get to L. Oh, no way. But still was like, look, this has been awful. This is the sort of thing,

not this specifically, sure. But like, I think, and I can't speak for you you but I feel like you may understand this if you live like a chaotic life sorry sometimes things like this happen like yes so I'm so willing to give people the benefit of the doubt because I'm like I end up in ridiculous situations and so when someone's in a ridiculous situation, I go like, oh,

like, of course, you've dropped a wardrobe, then you've got drunk to help the pain and now you're an arsehole. It could happen to any of us.

So, he's like, are you going to talk to me tomorrow? When will I hear from you? And I was like, I'll talk to you tomorrow. So in my head,

I was thinking, this is fucked, but for the last two or three weeks he's been great then I kind of wait the next day to see if he messages what I was hoping was he'd message me like oh my god I'm so embarrassed I'm so sorry about how that must have seemed to you I was really keen to go on a date with you but then I overdid it with the whiskey and it's just, I'm not like that. You know what I mean? Like some sort of like... I do. I completely know what you mean.

But I think if someone is aggressive... Before you've even met them? Uh-huh. Well, you think that's bad? It's so difficult to know. I'm not very good with signs. I'm bad at signs. I'm not very good with geography,

but I feel like it's a bad one. Oh, very good with signs. I'm bad at signs. I'm not very good with geography, but I feel like it's a bad one. Oh, very good with geography. I feel like it's a bad one. I feel like it's a stop sign. It's saying, do not enter. Do not pass. This is a dead end. This person should not be trusted in any way

because, yeah, you get drunk. That has happened to me many times by accident. And it's ended in hugely embarrassing situations. They've never been aggressive or that rude. Yeah. This is the thing that's annoyed me the most out of everything, which has been a lot. So I sent him a message at 1846 saying you make it through the night question mark and i thought he'd be like oh my god this is the time to apologize he wrote back

one word barely and i was like and that my friends is closure that is the end tick tick nail in the coffin. Goodbye. Got nothing to say now, have you? After everything you said last night. For fuck's sake. I felt like ringing him and being like, oh, I know. Why don't I guess your apology? I'll give you a letter. You tell me if it's right. A. B.

C. D. Like, fuck off. This doesn't count as your first date because you didn't go on a date but actually I know that feels bad but you never actually went feels sadder

does feel sadder Amy you didn't make it out the door it's just shit but I reckon if say anything else

like this happens again and then the third time I do meet someone that third guy is gonna get like a really shitty version of myself

because I'm turning up angry this is it in the world I'm not putting effort into how I look I'm gonna turn up late you're gonna meet

and I bet you fucking love this yeah oh man she doesn't give a fuck this is great she doesn't give a fuck this is it Oh, man. She doesn't give a fuck. This is great. She doesn't give a fuck. This is it.

It's so hard to keep hopeful. It's so hard to keep being bashed in the fucking head over and over again and then still get up and go, well, maybe this time. And we have to protect our hope. We have to protect it and put it in a little box and keep it safe and then take it out again and just be like, this asshole is nothing to do with me you didn't do anything he was just living his chaotic life and then you you thought oh maybe and then you thought oh no no no no no no no no no no

yeah so that's my that's my update yeah, just feeling pretty good about it. I think we need to speak to our special guest, Michelle Ellman, a.k.a. the Queen of Boundaries. Oh, is message back? It's not good. Oh, we're very excited to have Michelle Ellman here, the Queen of Boundaries. Not the princess. No.

Not the Duchess. The Queen. The Queen. Yeah, my followers are very kind. How did you get that title? Someone online started saying it and I made a joke about it and then it caught on

and now somehow it's on the title of, like, the cover of my books. And the funniest thing about that is people say self-proclaimed. I've never self-proclaimed it like when I say it's on the cover of my books I'm saying other people have said like Michelle is the queen of boundaries and like it's on I think Katie Piper said it and like Carrie Hope Fletcher said it and so it's on my books but I've not written on my book I'm the queen of boundaries it's just now it's the thing that's stuck. So we just go with it.

I love it. Yeah. I mean, I get called the queen of kissing, but you know. Queen of lunging. I would like that one. That one's nice. Yeah, yeah.

At the moment it is self-proclaimed. We're trying to get it to catch on. We'll work on that. Yeah. Okay. Let's spread it around. Thank you so much for coming. We're excited to have you.

What is Boundary? What is Boundary? You know what? It's a great first question to ask because I feel like most of the internet don't know. It's just a word. That's my boundary. You can't call everything a boundary.

Right, okay. So Boundary is how we teach people. It's the line between who you are and how the world wants you to be. And if you don't know your identity, that's when it can get very blurred. If that doesn't work, you can see it as a house. And so you get to decide when to open the door. But if someone knocked down the door anyway, you wouldn't be like,

oh, well, since you're here anyway, why don't you come sit down? But you can choose to open the door to someone. But if someone slammed through your window, you wouldn't be like, ah, well, you're here anyway why don't you come sit down but you can choose to open the door to someone but if someone like slammed through your window you wouldn't be like ah well you're here anyway so it's that mentality

of like it's not blocking everyone out it's not a brick wall but it's actually being able to choose who has access to you what if you live in a home

and it has no walls or ceilings or doors and then everyone's just rolling in that's called the people pleaser. Okay. Okay, that's what we are.

That's what we are. I'm like a marquee. So that's where we're starting off. A marquee with all the flaps up. The positive thing is, the positive thing is, if you even use like a piece of paper at this point, that's a bit more of a boundary.

Yes. Yes. Okay. This is so interesting. So we have to work out, because I think I've never thought about that or done that, worked out what is my house. We've got to build houses, Amy.

Right. A lot of people go the other way, where they've never opened their door to anyone. They've decided the world is a dangerous place, which they have enough evidence for that. And so let's just stay inside and never go out, never open the door and just live in this house. So both problems are an issue. which they have enough evidence for that. And so let's just stay inside and never go out, never open the door and just live in this house.

So both problems are an issue. It's finding that middle ground of like, no, we want to let some people in. Yeah. Not the whole world. So have you always had a house or did you build the house or did you put a door in? So you want to talk about me living without a house? It was me when I was 20 years old I was at birthday party and I had like 20 missed calls on my phone a Facebook message a whatsapp like I thought someone had died came out it was just my boyfriend all of them from my boyfriend and when

I called him back I was like what's wrong like has someone died and he was like oh no you're just normally at my beck and call. And I just, it's one of those comments where I was like, not only do you think that, you have the nerve to say that to my face. And then I came home and all my housemates were in the middle of an argument and just by walking in the house, that erupted into me being involved. And before I knew it, someone was saying to me, like, do you know how much we have to tolerate by living with you? And it was like this day of just, being slammed in the face of like I have everyone

around me treating me like shit yeah and how did we get to this point but also I think because it was two areas of my life happening back to back that I kind of went what have I done to surround myself with these kind of people and it was that moment of like when I say boundaries are how you teach people to treat you I was like I don't think I've been teaching people to treat me very well to be honest and so it was that wake-up call of like I don't want to be surrounded by these people no wonder I don't feel very good about myself when this is the people I surround myself with and frankly I don't deserve this good about myself when this is the people I surround myself with. And frankly, I don't deserve this. And I think one of the big pieces of boundaries is actually getting to the point of I deserve to set boundaries.

I deserve to be treated a certain way. And I'm going to be the person to make sure that happens. Wow. I've definitely learnt more boundaries as I've grown older. But sometimes I lose them. They're lost. I had them. And then where then where are they you get scared to set them I think my problem with it is I don't want to be mean that's the problem and so you're thinking of other people and you're thinking of their feelings you don't want to hurt them and then you lose yourself in the process because you

think oh this person doesn't mean badly or this person this you know one of the really helpful things that gave me boundaries was having my daughter because it was like oh, this person doesn't mean badly or this person this, you know. One of the really helpful things that gave me boundaries was having my daughter because it was like, oh, this isn't good enough for her. And that's what's really helped me. So it's easier to protect her because you believe she deserves the boundaries. Yes, she deserves everything.

But I forgot, I didn't realise that I did. And then we're learning. I mean, it's an onward, it's an onward battle. I also think you have to accept that you might be called mean. You could be the kindest, nicest person in the world and someone will still think you're learning. I mean, it's an onward battle. I also think you have to accept that you might be called mean. You could be the kindest, nicest person in the world and someone will still think you're mean. I actually truly believe you can't set a boundary properly or accurately if you're still caring about how they're going to respond.

I call it the boundary backlash, where not only mean, rude, selfish, with women, aggressive, difficult to work with, so many names will get thrown in your direction for setting boundaries but when i hear difficult i hear difficult to manipulate and i think that's where that's good but it's it's true that like women get a much harder stick for doing the same boundary setting the same boundaries as men do. And when men do it, they're empowered, they're confident, they're self-assured. And then when women do it, we're being difficult or much worse names, frankly, that I'm not sure I can say on this podcast,

but like you can think of them, they come to your mind. And they've been said to my face. It means I walk through the world as a very direct woman and get met with a lot of those reactions. The thing is, though, when they name call, it is an attempt to try to get you to change, to be back to the person that you were. So when you start trying to set boundaries, that person's going, you're a bit more inconvenient to my life right now,

so why don't I just call you rude? And then you will feel like guilt, shame, whatever is going on in your body, and you'll retreat back to your people-pleasing ways. That's the hope. It's not always consciously done. It's not always maliciously done. But when other people change, it confronts our ability to change. And if you don't want to change, because that's ultimately what needs to happen when someone in your life decides that they're going to empower themselves and start setting boundaries is they also have to change and adapt and accept that this is something that you are doing for you and that's

better for your life and is needed for your mental health they don't want to adapt they don't want to change so they're going to try to change you by name calling amy we've got to get out there. This is embarrassing to admit. What if sometimes I think that I might break boundaries? I might be a boundary pusher because I think I know better and so I just stomp all over those boundaries. Stomp, stomp, stomp. This is the funny thing. If you are bad at setting boundaries,

you are often bad at breaking boundaries because it's kind of the mentality of like well no one respects my boundaries anyway and this mentality of you know better I have the same thing I mean being a life coach and having the same thing is a very dangerous mentality and it doesn't help it when you're being qualified and trained in knowing better and then it's actually getting to a point of realising people are allowed to make their mistakes. You aren't necessarily right. Sometimes we need life to play out. And sometimes life playing out means that person making the same mistake over and over again until they learn the lesson. The reason why a lot of people feel

like they know better is they want to save other people from that pain. And ultimately, you can't save other people. But instead, you have to remember that people are competent and qualified enough. Can you see I repeat this to myself a lot? Yeah, competent and qualified enough to handle whatever happens and that that is not your responsibility. Because it was always coming from a good place. It was, especially with my friends of like, you know, when they're dating a bad guy and you just know, and you're trying to warn them

and you're like, please just listen to me. And then it gets to a point where like, you're shoving your opinion down their throat the entire time. And they're like, oh my God, back off. And then when they break up, you kind of sit there and you're like, I'm not going to say I told you so

because that would be a dickish thing. So I'm just going to sit here and be like, you could have saved yourself a lot of pain. It's crazy how this has happened. I'm surprised going to say I told you so because that would be a dickish thing. So I'm just going to sit here and be like, you could have saved yourself a lot of pain. It's crazy how this has happened. I'm surprised as well. No one saw this coming. But at the same time, like, no one likes being told what to do. And sometimes you do need to, like, for lack of a better term, hit rock bottom to learn the lesson.

What if you love telling people what to do? What if you just think that you know better about everybody and then you just can't help yourself from telling people what to do if you just think that you know better about everybody and then you just can't help yourself from telling people what to do because you feel like you know yes you really want the truth yes if you do that it's probably because you're distracted from your own life oh but what if it is my own life i'm trying to manage everybody in my life to make sure that everything is right aren't you exhausted yes i'm, but nobody else is doing what I'm telling them to do. So set some boundaries. Okay, okay.

Okay, so what boundaries does Harriet need to set here? What's step one? Mind your own business. That is the first boundary. Like if it doesn't concern you, if it doesn't affect you, it's not your business, it's not your right,

it's not your place. And also, this is going to sound harsh, but I've already gone down this road, so we might as well continue. But at some point, you have to understand that you're not that vital and important to people's lives, like in the kindest possible way. Like my moment was my housemate throwing a house party and I was so slammed with work. And I was like, I usually help with the drinks, I usually make food, all of this stuff, and it was our house, so, like, we should be throwing it together. And I was like, I don't want a house party.

Like, I don't have time for this. And I remember my life coach was like, yeah, it's her house party. It's taking place in your house, so maybe, like, arrange to be out the house if you want to work. But, like, you don't need to. She will throw the party without you. She will be fine. And I was like, there was some sort of narrative, which sounds so arrogant, the party without you she will be fine and I was like

there was some sort of narrative which sounds so arrogant of like yeah but she'll be sad or like yeah but I'm really fun at a house party and the house party will be less fun without me none of that is actually I was like hey by the way throw the house party I don't think I could help but she was like cool oh I wasn't that needed I wasn't that important yes that is interesting I think yeah I just it's really hard

not to try and control everything also really hard to try to control everything yes so which hard do you want I just want to know what's going to happen

with everything I just feel like I need to how's that working out really badly it's going really badly but let's focus on the positives um no I think I think that's it I think I need to look inwards and focus on my own boundaries because I'm just trying to stomp all over everybody else's tell them what they need to do be like you don't know what you want or what you're doing listen to me I know and actually I just need to focus on myself you're also trying to control

a world that is very uncertain this is it the world is scary so I want to control it and everyone in it but also humans are uncertain humans are unpredictable and you trying to control something that is out of your control will make you feel helpless and hopeless and powerless. Yes, you know what it's like? When I lived in Streatham, there was this man that had this pet snake and he was on a mobility scooter. And once I was walking down the high street and he was speeding on the pavement holding this snake.

It wasn't clear who was in charge, like the snake or the man. And he was speeding and the snake was just like going mad. And like he was trying to control the snake and the snake was trying to control him. And that is me with boundaries. Put the snake down. It's time to put the snake down. Let's not welcome any more uncertainty in our life than we can control. Absolutely.

But at the end of the day, you trying to control things that are out of your control is what's making you feel out of control yourself. Rather than being like, here is the circle that is my business. I will control that. But what you do is none of my business. And take that stuff off your plate because there's enough things to run. To be an adult and run your daily life is enough work. If you are trying to do everyone else's life on top of that, you will be exhausted. You will be burnt out. There'll be no time and energy left. I think we have this

illusion as well, especially when we start using words like self-love, self-care of like, yeah, absolutely. Once you've taken care of everyone else in your life first. And I'm like, at what point are you going to have time and energy if you've ticked everything on your to-do list? It doesn't exist. Roses are red, violets are blue. We've matched on an app. What you up to? The reason why people don't like the word selfish is because of the end part of the definition, which is to disregard someone else's needs.

And you actually have to do it to put your needs higher. So let's say you're spending an evening and you're trying to rest and you've had a really long week and your boss sends you an email at like nine o'clock at night. You need to ignore your boss's need for a reply. You need to ignore your boss's email in order to meet your need of needing to rest. Like it's not an option.

I think this idea that like, oh, you can take care of everyone else and also yourself. It's not optional. Like it's compulsory that you have to disregard someone else's need in order to say, no, I need some time for me. It makes sense. It makes sense. And I think it's one of those things where this is not the way to think about things at all. But I think it's more attractive to other people if you have boundaries and if you know your limits and what's important to you and if you set them rather than just being like wishy-washy and like, oh, whatever, and just getting pushed and pushed

kind of further and further away from yourself. A very small example of that is, you know, the kind of people when you're trying to decide dinner, they're like, I don't mind. I don't mind. I don't mind. You know what's worse than that? The person who's like, I don't mind. I don't mind. I don't mind. Okay, let's go for Italian. Oh, I don't like Italian.

Oh, so you did mine. You just didn't say it. How many more times do we have to go? And then you're sat there for half an hour when I'm like, just tell me what you want. And that person largely is probably someone who doesn't know their boundaries, doesn't know their needs, has had their needs diminish for so long. And I'm using a small example because everyone can relate to that.

But, like, it's not a small example. It's usually an indication of how they are in the rest of their life. But they have had their needs dismissed so much they have lost sight of what their needs are. So they don't realise there's a need until you say something and then they go, oh, no, I don't actually like that. But they have no ability to know their needs without a pushback because they've got used to that pattern of it being dismissed

and then them speaking up. I think this is why I feel very comfortable around Americans. And a lot of my close friends are very American because they're very direct and they'll just be like, I don't care if you're English bullshit, just tell me, do you want this or not? And I'm like, oh, I can just relax. I can just, I don't have to, people please,

they don't want me to do any of that shit. You see, I don't know what I need or what I want. And I've realised that my default reaction, if someone goes like, oh, what film do you want to watch? It doesn't even occur to me to think what film I want to watch. My first response is what film will they want to watch? And I'll say that. And it's me trying to guess whatever will make the situation easiest and most comfortable for them and like when you're saying

with the example of what do you want for dinner and i'm absolutely i don't mind i'll have absolutely anything and if they said italian and i didn't want that i wouldn't say oh not that i'd go yeah definitely and then i'd and you just have and i would or i'd eat it going, I'm allergic to tomatoes. Don't worry about that. And I just, whatever mix. And I, and it's so, and like when you're saying. Itching all over her body. Just like, yeah, no, I'm fine. Yeah.

I'm just going to put myself in an ambulance. And I'm like, yeah, don't worry about it. If you want this, let's get this. So basically what you're telling yourself is that everyone is more important than you. Yeah. And that your needs aren't important. They don't deserve to be met. Yeah, I guess I kind of feel like, oh, I'll be all right.

Like, let's make sure they're all right, because I'll... What's the worst thing that's going to happen if they're not all right? They're not all right. That's the worst thing. But you're not all right. But that's fine. Is it that they won't like you? It must be.

On some level, it must be that it's it's like oh if they're not happy around me if they're not completely happy and satisfied around me then they won't want to hang out with me but I think this illusion that being a people pleaser is going to make you more liked is inaccurate to begin with I remember I had one friend in university where any time I actually wanted her opinion on something she would just agree with what I said. And I remember I actually wanted her advice on the guy I was dating and I was asking for advice. She was like, absolutely, I think you're doing the right thing. And so just to test it, I completely switched and did a 180.

I was like, no, actually, I think I'm going to do that. She was like, no, yeah, that's right too. And I was like, this isn't helpful. You're just confirming what I'm saying. And that's not needed. I actually want to know what you think. I think you're an interesting person. I want to hear your opinion.

And your opinion is important to me. Otherwise, I wouldn't be asking for it. And at a certain point, that is difficult to be in a relationship with. And I think this idea that like everyone needs to like you we forget about respect like I would much rather someone respect me now than like me wow that's not even crossed my mind it's a match what if your opinions are wrong like I think this is my problem. A lot of the time, I think I have an opinion and then the opinion is wrong and I've copied someone else's opinion

and then I'm saying that opinion. And then also I'm dyspraxic, so often I'm making mistakes. And so I'm like, oh, it's just easier not to have opinions and just to go with what's happening around. I can't help but pay attention to the fact that you said, what if my opinion's wrong? And yet previously you were saying that you want to give your opinion to everyone all the time. Yeah, it's chaos. I'm not going to lie. It's chaos out there. I'm giving bad opinions.

I'm telling everybody what to do. I'm not listening to it. But your opinion might be wrong. It's absolutely wrong. Yeah, that's what we're learning at every single stage. No confidence in the opinion, but total confidence in giving it. That's fantastic. That's a very unique problem to have.

I don't really know where to start with that one. Not sure I can life coach that one. Very unique. That's our Harriet. Look, I'm dyspraxic too. I totally get it. Like, I'm dyspraxic, I'm dyslexic. I think with all of this,

if we operate how the world has decided we should operate, we're in a losing game. Whereas it's instead deciding, and you said you really love how Americans speak. So talk like your American friends. I'm so bad at the accent, but I'll give it a go. I'm not American. I'm not American. I've not been given permission by living in London to be more direct than everyone else. I've just confronted the uncomfortable moments of people being like, wow, she's a bit direct. And I fully accept, just like how you said you want to be liked,

that I probably walk out of rooms and go, wow, she's a lot. Or like, wow, she's a lot to work with. Or whatever it is, she's difficult, she's rude, or wow, wow, she's a lot to work with or whatever it is. She's difficult. She's rude or wow, she is very direct. But I also am aware that there are moments in my life where I've actually got opportunities, made friendships because I am that person. So there are negatives to being direct. There are also positives. And one of the positives within friendships is that you say what you mean and mean what you say. You don't have that overwhelming concern of like, oh, are my friends angry at me? Do they actually like me? Because the problem with being a people pleaser is you're

essentially presenting a character that you think they'll like. There's always that underlying fear of if I show them the real me, will they leave me? And so actually it's a lot worse doing it that way than just being yourself from the get-go, saying your opinions, having your needs met, and then if they want to leave, at least they've left early, not three years into a relationship because you've gone, oh, let's just drop the mask now and actually be ourselves. But same in dating.

Like people do that. Dating books teach you to do that. Dating books are like, just get to the point where you can secure that boyfriend label and then you're all good. You can actually be yourself and be that nagging wife. It's so messed up because it's like, first of all, to have needs is not nagging. Second of all, you should have needs from the get-go third of all who said that us having less needs makes us more attractive like I don't I'm not playing that game if I have to not have needs to have this relationship I'd rather be single I think this is so good because I think I've been reading about boundaries and like it's good to have them in relationships or like that's what

men want or like all these kind of things and it's actually like it's just for ourselves it's a really good thing to do like it's not about trying to put things in place for them. It's about trying to create that in our lives. But I think what I don't always know is what my opinion is. Like how do you work out what your boundaries are and what you really like truly feel? So opinions and needs are different. If you don't have opinion, that's fine.

Say that, I don't know. I need more information on that. I actually don't have an opinion on that. All those things are great boundaries, actually, to be like, I don't know. Around needs, if you don't know what your needs are, the greatest two emotions that signify that your boundaries have been crossed are anger and resentment. So if that arises in your body, and usually if you're not used to knowing what your needs are, you might have this experience of getting into bed at night you finally are trying to sleep and suddenly conversation is like whirling in your brain and you're going oh I could have said this and I could have said that that's usually because you didn't set a boundary in the moment and can anger and resentment be

shown in different ways because I would say I sometimes feel that, but it comes out as hot tears. I feel anger very rarely, but I feel upset a lot. So a lot of the times women have been shamed for anger in the same way men have been shamed for sadness. So we're not really in touch with our anger, but it doesn't mean it's not sat in our body somewhere. So why it's probably coming out in tears is either because you've been shamed for anger in the past, you were punished when you were a child for expressing

anger, and you've never had a healthy, positive outlet for anger. Because the ironic thing is, the most healthy way to process anger is physically just not hurting yourself or anyone else. So like punching a pillow, throwing ice at a wall, screaming in a car, like these are things that if you actually saw anyone do these things, you'd be like, God, aggressive, anger management, like all of these things. But actually that person's not hurting anyone. And we need to physically move our bodies because emotions sit physically in the body. So when you're punching a bag, like you're punching a bag like you're not hurting yourself you're not hurting anyone else but you're actually getting it out of your body and I think that's

where we kind of have a messed up relationship with anger altogether but women especially because an angry woman is so stigmatized that's something I do with my daughter is that if she's like trying to throw things or just like is like in a rage of chaos then I'm like you can throw this cushion and then she like throws the cushion a bit because I read that that's a help like she needs to get it out yeah and so maybe we need to go like boxing or something oh my god my new favorite one is throwing ice at the wall it's so good throwing ice at the wall it's so wow full force at the wall I've never done any damage I do it like with the counter behind my kitchen like it's because it's tile

and I slam it and like because it's water it'll clean itself up I don't even need to clean it up that's why icicles are a good murder weapon because they melt and then

you're not condoned they're like how could they be killed I don't know there's just a puddle and it's all melted the evidence this is not what I said

this isn't a boundary Harriet I don't know, there's just a puddle. And it's all melted, the evidence. This is not what I said. This isn't a boundary, Harriet. I did not condone that part. That's your thought. What are some of the boundaries that you have in your dating life? I have a lot of boundaries in the setting up of a date. So even before the first date, I believe in setting precedent of like like if you're going to organize a date two minutes away from you and two hours away from me yeah no go like not happening and it's something as simple as this doesn't work for me can we find

somewhere in the middle if someone's texting me at two o'clock in the morning like hey you up yeah I won't reply at that time and then I'll reply in the morning saying, hey, I don't text at that time. If you want to set up a date, then you're actually going to have to do so with notice and at a reasonable hour. If someone's texting me nonstop during the work day, I set a boundary and I'm like, hey, I don't reply between working hours, but I'll get back to you at the end of the day. Because I do think it's important that they don't get full time access to you from the get go. They're still a stranger, especially if you've been meeting them off a dating app and you've not actually got off the app yet.

So why do you get to be my top priority? Yeah, that's fair. That's really good. I think we're learning a lot, aren't we? It's really good. Do you write these boundaries down? Yes. Because I forget. This is the problem. I can be like, start on Monday with a boundary and then I'm on Wednesday and I'm like oh so all my books include actual literal texts you can use because I had the same problem I think

because I'm dyslexic I would read these self-help books I would listen to these theories I was like yep yep yep agree how do I word for word put that in a sentence and I would really struggle and so I'd go into my life coaching sessions I'd ask my life coach to actually write my text for me write my emails for me by the way last night I just discovered you can get chat GPT to do it and it's really good it's not very good at flirting is what I've discovered I asked it to like reply to a thing and then I was like no screw this I asked a friend and she was like yeah that's perfect flirty response not very good at flirting but very good at setting boundaries very good for writing emails where you good at setting boundaries. Very good for writing emails where you have to set boundaries.

I was setting boundaries over email last night in a work context. And I was like, can you make this better? And I just put in the whole email and it made it better. And it's because it's my dyslexia. Like I really struggle with that. How do I put one word in front of another?

And that's why when people talk negatively about dyslexia, I'm like, actually it's such a strength when it comes to my books. I am so literal in my books because I need it and I won't understand the sentence. So I can't write a sentence I don't understand. So then I put texts in of how to say that because I was like, I could, I was a hundred percent on board with the concept of boundaries. I had no clue how to actually put it word for word and I remember in my session with my life coach her saying yeah just reply this doesn't work for me and I was like you can't say that like just I've never thought to put those words next to each other in a set I English is my first language and yet I have never thought that those words can go

in a sentence next to each other and so that was like one sentence ready made that I now know I can use. And then I kept adding to that of like, please don't speak to me like that. That's another one that I like. I think that was my second boundary of like, I mean, no is ultimately a boundary in itself, but very rarely do you just go no. And so having these other sentences of like, even just I'm not available at that time. I don't need to say any more. You know how many times people decline events and go, because then I've got this and I've got work.

No, I am not available at the time. That's it. I think having boundaries is hot. I think it's so hot. And then I just want to stomp all over those boundaries. Stompy, stompy, stomp. But I think it's so good to have. It's like it's having a sense of self and like a confidence.

In order for a healthy relationship to take place, you both need to know your healthy boundaries because it means you can actually engage on an equal playing field of like, hey, that doesn't work for me. And then the other person can come back and be like, okay, so this is what I'm willing to do. Does that work for you? So it's about listening to yourself, I guess.

Like that's how we work out what our boundaries are. Hello, Harriet. Is it ham? So say dating and things like that. Yeah. Do you think by setting the boundaries, you do see people being like, oh, I'm out? And do you have to kind of get used to that?

I get both. There was this thing guys do on Dating Apps of, I'll let you know. And they'll do it once you're dating, like third or fourth date. And I was like, hey, do you want to do something tomorrow? It wasn't tomorrow. It was like actually quite far in advance.

And it was like a week in advance. And I was like, yeah, I can do this date. And they were like, great, I'll let you know. And I was like, no, that doesn't work for me. Let me know now. Otherwise, you're making other plans. And he replied going, all right, Miss Sassy, 3pm it is. It was an instant reply.

It was the fact nothing had changed in the schedule nothing had changed other than I said no and suddenly he could find a time and pick it like we had already picked the date it was just give me a time actually lock it in now or never like I'm it's not happening like Like, I'm not. What actually usually used to happen was, okay, don't worry, all good. And then I sit around all day. I'm sat there the night before going, oh, should I send another text and be like, hey, are we still on for tomorrow? And then I wake up in the morning and I'm like, oh, I still not received a message. Oh, are we still doing something today?

And I might be saying that in a very like meek like tiptoe feeling yeah just what I'm actually doing is then going to my best friend and being like this fucking but like yeah I'm being like I'm so pissed off he's wasted and then the worst is it gets to six o'clock at night you realize the date's clearly not happening yeah he's clearly not coming over he's not even replied to your text and you're're like, oh, I'm so disappointed. And now I'm actually just sad. Like I was like, oh, I was really excited for today. And you've gone through all of these emotions that all could have been saved a week before.

That you've hidden from them. You haven't shown them any of these emotions. Because you need to be the easygoing, cool girl. So you're going, yeah, don't worry. Yeah, all good. No worries. And then internally you're going, I go through all the range of emotions

because I get angry because you're wasting my time but I haven't told them they're wasting my time I've not set boundaries to make sure my time isn't wasted I get sad because like if you think you have a date that day you get disappointed when it doesn't happen and then this like anxiety or anxiousness of like oh I'm gonna lose them or I'm gonna lose them and it's like well actually if they're not respecting your time I want to lose them or I'm going to lose them. And it's like, well, actually, if they're not respecting your time, I want to lose them now. I want to turn them off. And so that's where, but it was the all right, Miss Sassy, that kind of got me because I was like, power play. Like that was like, oh, I set my boundary. So you wanted to like check me on it. And I was like, call me whatever you want. Like that was the playful way of saying,

oh, you're being a bit direct and I think this is where you learn with boundaries that there was something about the fact that it was so instant and getting a time out of him was really not that hard it was in a long conversation it was like four words I sent of that doesn't work for me and getting back a time instantly of going oh you always knew when you were available. You just wanted to make me because also then what's that dynamic? That dynamic is me chasing wanting you more. Whereas I'm going like, no, that's not going to work. I have other options. Like I didn't say like, because I do think it would have been rude to be like, I'm going to book another date. And I didn't

say that. I was like, I'm going to make other plans. Otherwise, like when someone says, oh, I'll let you know what I don't, I don't know about how you manage manage your diary but how I manage my diary is I put that person's name across the whole day and then I'll be like oh I'll put the time in later but then when I go to book things in I tend to like hesitate on that day so I'm like I don't mind doing that for someone who like is really high up on my priority list I'm definitely not doing that for a guy on a third date yeah we've just put the bar um on the ground um and it turns out we could they they can jump they're fine we can put the bar higher yeah we're just like oh let me lay this on the ground and you just lift up your little feet and just step over it but we can you can lift it higher and then they're like oh yeah no that's fine as well I think also I it turns out I'm not an easy cool girl nor is anyone I really don't think any of them exist yes and then you just

stifle it and try and pretend to be easy cool girl I'm an outside easy cool girl inside very sad girl I actually started saying something at the weekend of like I don't care about a lot but when I care I care I actually realize I am quite a flexible person I don't care about a lot, but when I care, I care. I actually realise I am quite a flexible person. I don't like the term easygoing because I think, like, depends what you're doing. But I am quite flexible on a lot of things. I care a lot about everything in my career. So in a relationship, there's actually very little I care about.

Like, I am actually okay for a guy to book an entire holiday, book the hotel, book which country we're going to. I have no interest in that. Oh, I'm fine with that. If anyone's listening, that is fine. If you want to do that, I'm fine with that. But even the fact that like my ex, like for example, booked an entire holiday, booked all these like audio tours. He knows I hate audio tours and I still didn't care. Like, but I did care about going to one restaurant. And if we don't do that, I will be unhappy. Like when I care, I care. And I'll let you know when.

But that means when I actually say I don't mind, we can go anywhere in the world. I just need a holiday. I actually mean I don't mind. So it's about like it doesn't mean having these really strict boundaries around everything, but it's about protecting the things that matter to you. And then you realize there's actually a lot I don't care about. There's a lot of things which I don't care whether we go to Heathrow or Gatwick.

I don't care what time the flight is. I'll wake up at three in the morning. Whereas like that constant like, oh, should we do this? Should we do that? And then you're trying to communicate with a person who like isn't telling you honestly what they feel. And then sometimes that means they end up eating the pasta that's making them allergic.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But sometimes that also means then they turn around this this this this this and I was like you didn't say a single one of those I'm not a mind reader like how was I meant to know that I was doing all those things if you didn't just say you could have said that the first day you could have said at one I didn't like when you did that and then four days in it's built up it comes at me and with intensity because you didn't just say on the first day hey that one thing you do kind of annoying I was like okay we'll do it again another one with a fish I'm trying to think of like why am I not doing this because it's so obviously a much better way to live and I'm trying to work out what it is that's holding me back and I think it's just the

idea of saying something honest that maybe doesn't get a good reaction you know saying something where then they're like oh right well I guess even just them setting their boundary. So basically last week I said to someone who I'm just in a talking phase, talking stage, that's it. And I said, do you want to check in? I was really proud of myself even saying that because I would normally just be like, everything's absolutely fine, don't worry about anything, just do exactly what you want. I was like, hey, should we have like a check in on like how things are going? I was really proud of myself for saying that. And then he said he set a you want I was like hey should we have like a check in on like how things are going I was really proud of myself

for saying that and then he said he set a boundary and I was like oh wow he was like oh not now because I'm really tired I've just got home

I'm really tired I've had this busy day is it alright if we do it another time and I was like oh yeah definitely but if he if it was the other way around and I was knackered

and he'd have said can we check in I'd have been like oh yeah of course but him saying that didn't make me feel upset. Him setting that boundary made me like, I felt fine about that. But I'm wondering why I would struggle to be honest. I think it's having that awkwardness in the room after I've said something.

It's this desire to keep someone in your life no matter what. Yeah. And I think if you've had a past of like, I don't want to assume anything about, but usually it's some issue around an abandonment wound. Yeah. It's like people are better than no people. And actually we need to change that of like people who treat you well

deserve to stay in your life. But people who treat you badly and don't respect your boundaries can actually go. And it's going to hurt. It's painful. Friendship breakups, romantic breakups, all of it hurts. But at the same time, if you don't respect me, you don't respect my boundaries. I think this is where you actually do want to repel people. And I think it's actually getting to that point.

You have to go through the discomfort so like the awkwardness in the room for example you're doing something new you're setting boundaries that you've never set before therefore it will be hard it will be difficult it will be clumsy and it will be messy and it will be awkward but usually by the time someone has got the point of this journey that you're both on, it's because the other way you were doing things did not work either. And it needs to get to a point where that is so inconvenient for your life, that the fear of setting the boundary is the more comfortable thing than continuing down the path you're on. And that's ultimately where I got to in my journey.

And unfortunately, the only way to make boundary setting easier is to keep doing it and then it just becomes everyday I mean I don't even know when I'm setting boundaries anymore and then people go like oh that's a great boundary and I was like oh was that boundary I was just talking but it's because they just naturally come out my mouth now the queen of boundaries there we go was that a boundary I was just chatting I love that or sometimes I don't even bother to set the boundaries anymore. I just go, boundary.

It's just, especially with my friends, I'll just be like, boundary. And they're like, okay, I'll stop. And I was like, I don't even need to like phrase it by the sentence. I'm just like, boundary. We need to get like a little boundary bell that we can just ring.

Boundary. A little flag, please. Boundary, please. That's what we're going to do. That's what we're gonna do that's what we're gonna do thank you so much michelle no no no god no i feel like i've had a load of ice thrown at my head yeah me too do you know what i mean i just feel like i just feel a bit just cross i just don't want to be a people pleaser. And I don't want to be like, I want to have strong boundaries. I don't want to respect other people's boundaries. But I am boundaryless.

I am a lady with no boundaries. It's just boundarying around, but with no boundaries. And I'm just jumping over boundaries and then I'm just like lying down and just saying no you just don't worry about my about I don't and I didn't want I really thought I'd come out of um the divorce and like getting a divorce I thought I was going to be like so bounded I was like yeah I'm going to do things differently this time. I'm going to be different. I'm not in my 20s anymore. I'm a grown lady. Obviously, I'm going to respect myself.

And I just feel like I have to learn how to do that. And I just can't be bothered. It's hard, isn't it? Yeah. I don't even know what I want my boundaries to be. I feel so far away from having a boundary. I feel like if the boundary was like the height of a hurdle that's a boundary you have to jump over I feel like I'm subterranean in the dirt

I'm a little maggot worm in the dirt just going I don't even know if I do like pasta I've never crossed my mind we have none of business. I remember I had a therapist once who was like, what's your favourite colour? And I was like, I don't know. What's yours? What am I meant to say? What's the right answer? And we've got to learn all this stuff for ourselves. It's so funny you said that about hurdles because at Sports Day every

year they'd always put me in to do the hurdles which for dyspraxic is just cruel. It's so cruel. And every year I'd do it and I'd knock over every single hurdle and I get my legs stuck on them sometimes and I just like limp towards the finish line and that's me with boundaries that's you with all the people's boundaries as well people's and mine yes because I'm just and I think what you were saying is so right. You fear losing them by saying how you actually feel. You worry that you're going to lose somebody,

but then it's like, I've got like, be gone. Like you should be lost. That's the thing, isn't it? Go get lost. Go get lost, actually. That's the thing. I think there's a desperate need to cling on, even if they're not right.

Even if it's like clinging on. They're on a motorbike. It's going through, you know when it gets like there's loads of branches and stuff and I'm just clinging onto the back, onto their backpack.

They're riding the motorbike going, I'm not really interested in you and you're going, I'll do anything for you. They're trying to fling me off. You know when you go around corners too quick.

They're trying to throw me off. Please get off. I'm hanging on so tight. I'm going to hang hang on don't you worry yeah i will never let go i love this branch in the head yeah okay this is this feels like a really big one to think about not just about dating just about life just life yes but also i think it is good because i think some people have too many boundaries and i think i definitely it's like mad but in some ways i feel like i've been like that as well

like or like just like shy and cautious and like anxious and so it's like yeah i don't even know if it is boundaries but it's like you're trying to protect yourself walls are up walls are up but then they can just walk around the side. You just stood behind one single 2D flat wall, peeping out, being like, I'm just here if you want me, by the way. I'm just here. Yeah, I need to do some thinking, I think, about what I, who I am, what I like. What do I like? Yeah, it really like intense self-work.

Oh, God, it never ends. It just never ends. One day we're going to get an expert in and they're just going to say, yeah, just keep doing what you're doing. It's going to work out in the end. Keep being little maggot worms, knocking over hurdles. This is perfect. You're living right.

Gosh. Okay. I'm so tired of learning. I'm just tired. I'm done. Do you know why I'm tired? Because I set no boundaries and say yes to everything.

I don't reckon I do need more than four hours sleep. Oh, really? Oh, not me. I don't reckon I do need more than four hours sleep. Oh, really? Oh, not me. I don't need it. Maybe I do need it. I need to eat. Do you know that?

I need to eat. I'm going to have to eat after this. Yeah, we should eat and sleep. I should eat and sleep. Fucking hell. Thanks so much to Michelle. Thank you, Michelle. Thank you, Michelle, the queen of boundaries.

Yeah, thank you. She was brilliant. We really appreciate it. You can see her website, michelleellman.com, her current book, The Selfish Romantic. I'm going to read that immediately. How to date without feeling bad about yourself. And then her latest book is coming out in 2025,

Bad Friend, and it's about friendship breakups. So I've got more boundary work to do there, I guess. You can pre-order it as well. Set that boundary to pre-order the book. I'm so tired. I'm tired too. Should we nap? Please.

Hello, me again, Amy Gledhill, but this time I'm with... Not Harriet Kemsley. Whoa! WT, fuck! What's going on? I'm with bloody Ian Smith. Offer to Northern News podcast. Yes, a podcast that's not about the news.

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