Single Ladies In Your Area - First kisses, defence mechanisms and not playing games with MAFS UK expert Charlene Douglas

Episode Date: November 1, 2024

Joining Amy and Harriet this week is sex and relationships therapist, author and Married At First Sight UK expert, Charlene Douglas. Charlene shares her wisdom and answers questions like: How do you know if someone likes you? How do you make the first move? And at what point should you stop talking about ham?Charlene's book Come Closer: Everything You Ever Wanted to Ask a Sex and Relationship Therapist is available now. Want to share your dating tips or horror stories, or have a question for the experts? Email in at [e-mail] Single Ladies In Your Area on Instagram @singleladiespod and Twitter @singleladiespodAnd follow Charlene on Instagram @charlenedouglasofficialRecorded and edited by Aniya Das for Plosive.Photos by Matt Crockett and Linda Blacker.Design by Welcome Studio. Get bonus content on Patreon Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Amy Gledhill. And I'm Harriet Kemsley. We're both single and in our 30s. And we've found ourselves back on the dating scene. And the landscape has changed. Everyone has settled down. But we're back out there. And we're desperately trying to figure out what the hell we should be doing.

So we're going to speak to experts, chat about dates we've been on. If we manage to get any. And share your tips and horror stories. So we all feel less alone we might even get our exes on yeah we'll see about that this is single ladies in your area this week we've got some exciting news from harriet and joining us later is special guest charlene douglas you may know her from Married at First Sight UK and when I appeared on Lucy and John's Perfect Couple with my now ex-husband and her new book Come Closer.

Everything you ever wanted to ask a sex and relationship therapist is out now. We desperately need Charlene's help. Can't wait to speak to her later. Well, well, well, we're back here again. Well we are i've got news you've got news i went on a second date the one that we talked about first one in january second one july we're on a roll so harriet how are you feeling after the second date and were you scared of anything before yeah I guess you're scared of just conversation is scary like to be able to keep conversation going like it's so intense with somebody that you have no connection with you can't be like oh how's Jonathan yeah because they're like who's Jonathan I don't know like there's no connection

in life so you're kind of learning all the new things and then also the one before was quite a long time ago so you know trying to remember all the all the things and what you said on that day so you're not repeating the same stories how was it it was good it was it's really it's the whole thing is so weird it's so weird isn't it and I think it's really hard meeting people that you have nothing especially when there's a big gap in between yeah but it was really nice and he's like a really nice guy um we had a nice lunch which also feels weird like being in daylight do you know what I mean it's like wow your face is really there like you know not his face like my face is out there's no hiding the face and And you're just like, oh God, what about that bit of the face?

You know? And, but yeah, he was like really nice. And then, and then as we were leaving, we had a kiss. Which was like lovely. It was really nice. But then he left. One minute later, a colleague of ours turned up to set up the gig that night at the venue. Can you imagine if it turned up

i'd say 45 seconds earlier and to see me snogging in the street in balham in the middle of the afternoon like just it's just also it just all feels so humiliating look i i get that but i want to ring a bell a congratulations bell i want to give you a parade thank you yeah you've done fantastic yeah it felt huge. So you enjoyed yourself on the date. Had a nice date. How long was the date? He's a really nice guy.

A couple of hours. That's really good. But yeah, he was really sweet. He was really gentlemanly. He did like all the things that just felt very grown up and nice. That's really nice. And he booked it and planned it. And it just like, compared with, I don't know, the people that I dated in my 20s,

it just felt like, wow, this is mad. We need to remember, and I think a lot of people listening need to remember, that when someone does something like that, that's actually kind of like the bare minimum. But when your standards have been low, because I get so excited about something and I'll tell my friend and I'll be like he literally

he went to the bar and I paid for it but he carried the drinks back and I didn't even ask him to and they're like are you taking the piss and I'm like

he is a prince among men and we need to remember that even though yes that's really lovely and I'm really glad he did that but that doesn't mean I should I shouldn't just let's not get carried away yeah yeah yeah

yeah yeah it's just a thank you oh thank you so much yeah and was it flirty I think it was a bit flirty I said at one point something about I keep talking about Pilates reformer I don't know what my problem is but I got into Pilates reformer I really like it because you're just lying down on your back the whole time and then it was like and then it was like a little bit and then i think i went bright red and then i really like just looked at my food and um i just was like and then he's like oh like on your back and i was like oh god like i just like felt so humiliated um but um it was all fine and like yeah he's just like a grown-up that's fantastic but it felt like a huge milestone like, yeah, he's just like a grown up. That's fantastic. But it felt like a huge milestone.

Like someone from an app went on a date, had a kiss. Fuck. Tick. Incredible. Ticked it. You've ticked that motherfucker off. Yeah. Oh, I'm proud of you. Thank you.

And in awe of you. Thank you. But I need more help, actually. Let's talk to our fantastic guest, Charlene Douglas. Wow. Is this flirting? We have got author and Married at First Sight expert. Is that fair to say?

Yeah, I love how you said expert. I was just like expert. Is that the right word? Yes. Harriet, you look nervous. Well, we know each other a bit. We've worked together when I was married. Okay.

Maybe a year and a half ago. Things have changed. I thought things have changed a lot. Do we need to give you an update? Be Ned and Matt. Charlene, after seeing us together, might understand. Well, I'm like, was it something I said? Oh my gosh.

But I feel like, yeah, you're an absolute pro at kind of like, I think me and Amy are newly single. We've kind of been in relationships for quite a while and now we have to get out there and meet people. uh we're i'm just gonna speak for both of us yeah a little bit awkward maybe sure um yeah just yeah a bit we've not been single and available in this era of the apps and all these like first dates with people that you you don't know so i'm that's what i'm most scared of because i've only ever been in relationships with people where you meet them and then it's a gradual, slow thing

and now it's like a catalogue and you sort of... Swipe away. Swipe this one, I'll give this one a go. But it's scary. Yeah. Could you start by giving us advice on how do you know if it's a good vibe from a conversation on an app? Like, how do you know this is the sort of person that you should ask out on a date?

Wow, that's a big question. I'm so sorry, that's so big. So online dating, there are lots of different apps, first of all, right? And some apps are known to be kind of more geared towards relationships some apps are geared more towards casual fun yes um and then you get those that are in between there's particular sites in my mind I won't say which ones are kind of like more geared towards you know yeah which kind of arena I think we see if you're wrong you're on fields and you're like I'm looking for something serious, actually.

Can you keep it serious? Although in saying that, sites like Field, people also do meet the love of their lives as well because they've met someone that's into maybe kink and then from there they realise, actually, this is the person that is my person. So it's possible. But yeah, it's kind of maybe a little bit more casual sex, that type of thing for Field. And then, yeah, there are other sites where it's more about relationships. So I think the thing is to have fun with it.

And the classic therapist, I pick up on all words, everything that you say and don't say. So when Harriet said, you know, we have to now sort of enter the dating world, the word have to, and I think for me, I'm like, okay, that would suggest to me that it feels like a bit of a oh I've got to do this now there's so many people feel like I don't think anyone's like I'm going on hinge yeah yeah but when you then meet someone where there's like a little bit of a spark then the adrenaline starts rushing and then it's like okay this is good you know so I think

once you start you start the process it can be fun it can also be quite deflating as well so I think it's also about managing expectations but it's as fun as you make it this is advice that I've given to friends that just kind of see it that like you're going out for the evening or something like you're going to a bar like and so you sit down for like a couple of hours or something you have a drink and like you try and chat to people and match with people. Do you think that's a good way of doing it rather than you're just like on the tube and you're a bit grumpy and you're just like, oh, he'll do. Yeah.

Yeah. Which is better. Which you mean? Do you mean you, when you do the apps, you get into like a, as if you're on a night out state of mind? Yeah. I've just kind of see it when I've got a night off, you have like a as if you're on a night out state of mind yeah I've just kind of see it when I've got a night off you have like a couple of hours and just be like I'm gonna go

into this and like chat to some people and like see it as like a an activity and be like positive rather than just something you're fitting in and yeah I would agree the thing is though like the body and the mind it doesn't lie right so you do have to make sure that before you enter into this world of dating that you are that you feel like you're in a good place, at least, right? What if you never feel like you're in a good place? What do we do then, Charlene? The thing is this, how realistic is it that we're always like happy-gutty? I'm not necessarily talking about that, But it's more that you feel whole.

It's a match. Question for a friend. How do you not be desperate? Just for... Just a friend. Just for the listeners and we're not really interested or bothered about the answers.

Yeah, we're not really about us but trying to help everybody else. Let's say you're a bit desperate. How do you not be desperate? Well, I would say make sure your life is full. Okay. Make sure your life is full of things that bring joy to you, right? Yeah, that's what we need to do.

Yeah. We've got to try and find hobbies. Yes, there's some great stuff out there. What if you hate hobbies? If you hate hobbies? I hate all hobbies yeah all of them I mean

I think hopefully there'll be something that you can find there's gonna be something yeah that you can really enjoy yeah that you can really enjoy

and that you can you know that brings a smile to your face that kind of I suppose like distracts you from the world of dating for a while

you know like I think if you can find things like that like nice restaurants nice food if you're a bit of a foodie or you know going on a nice holiday so you're thinking okay what am I going to wear and what am I going to buy and who's going to come with me and yeah just so you've got some other things that make your life full so you know that where you're not in a place where you like desperately need somebody but it's more like oh this would be a nice to have. This would be a nice bonus to my life. It just gives it a little bit more of a, it just makes it a bit more playful.

When I've worked with clients where they've been desperate to find someone, that's when it really hasn't happened for them. They will just get idiot after idiot, time waster after time waster. And it's usually when they feel really light and they're having lots of fun, they put themselves into a gym, they're listening to their music that they'll hear like and it'll be someone from one

of the sites and and then it's you know i'm not saying it always works like that but yeah i was saying the key to be in it is trying to be in a good place and to make sure that you're not just like so attached to online dating like it's like like glue that you're not allowing yourself to also enjoy life yeah yeah that's it because I think that's when you've got nothing else on and then you're like this is all I have like I definitely had relationships like that in my 20s where it was going really badly and I was clinging on so hard and they were trying to get away yeah it wasn't even about them it was just having a person like I get that so much I really love the feeling of having a crush on someone and I feel like I

almost pick one I'll go you you'll do just to have yeah I really like thinking about someone and I really like having a little fire in my belly being like oh are they gonna message oh they did message but the downside of that is when you send them a message and then they don't message back I feel like it they take up so much space in my brain and then I start being like well I shouldn't have sent that message that's stupid I should I should apologize for sending that message I I sent two messages and then haven't texted back and then I should apologize being like god you should never text more than twice and then haven't texted back and then I should apologise being like, God, you should never text more than twice

and then you've done a third time. And then before you know it, my phone's in the sea and I've had to go live underground. Yeah. What? How do you,

how do you deal with that? Hypothetically. Yeah, I think it goes back to just make sure your life is like, was that a friend as well? Yeah,

yeah. Did you, did you ask that? Yeah yeah Claire yeah Claire yeah so funny one of my best friends her name's Claire it's not me it's not me okay sorry Claire get a hobby what can I say it goes back to just make sure your life is full of other things because then you don't overthink things as much. Now, look, we are human. If you really want to be with somebody, it is difficult, isn't it, when you've kind of had a bit of a connection with someone

and you think, oh, actually, this could go somewhere. Sometimes it feels like it is going somewhere. Yeah. Until it doesn't. Yes. And that can be really disappointing. Yeah. But I think in the dating world,

you have to have a bit of a thick skin. And I think as a therapist, because I work with so many people and I know what's really going on behind the scenes for people. Not like, you know, not what they post on social media, not the version of themselves that they want you to see. When they're in the therapy room, they're telling you the real deal. And so I think it's helped me to understand that people aren't always how they present, you know, in terms of what's going on for them. That's classic Claire, actually, isn't it? Classic Claire.

Not us, but Claire, actually. I think that's probably ringing some bells, yeah, for Claire. We should send her this episode. I think that's it. And I think especially when you get out of a relationship you have that emptiness

maybe and you haven't got the hobbies yet or your single friends or the people to hang out with and so you're quickly looking to replace that yeah because you had all that time

with someone yeah where that's like the routine you have so you're like okay I've done my work for the day I guess I'll go

and hang out with oh no there's no one. OK, no, no bother. I'll text this person who I've got a crush on, who I've met three times. Oh, they haven't texted back. Well, I'm a failure. And I think it's, you're right, it's because of that,

we've not filled that little hole or filled that gap of time with something that's filling us up. We're too quick to look for external validation almost. Absolutely. I think also when you're in a relationship, you can kind of get caught up in it, can't you? And you don't always have like your own identity, as it were. You may be doing things together. You're in a bit of a routine together. And then when you split up from that person, it's like, oh, OK, who am I? Like, what do I actually enjoy? You know, kind of what are my hobbies?

Sort of thing. Like, do I have hobbies? You know, kind of, what are my hobbies? Sort of thing. Like, do I have hobbies? Kind of thing, you know? You kind of go into that space. But I would say also in terms of getting into a new relationship to kind of keep that in mind, even when you're in a new relationship, to still remember to enjoy being you, you know,

with your friends, your career, whatever it may be. So whether the relationship works out or not, you will still be okay and you are still whole so hard to remember yeah yeah and what you were saying about the the messaging and i shouldn't have said that i shouldn't like i've been thinking about this a lot like i was saying this to a friend and i was like because i was like reading a lot about it and they were like and the things i'd read were like you can't mess it up with the right person you know you can't and so i was like yeah you just can't mess it up whatever i do you know you just

can't you can't if it's the right person you won't message even if you message them loads of times they're like I think that's a little bit completely true like if you just bombard them with messages in a row like I was calling them and calling them calling at 4am but I was like you're my person this can't ruin it but I think there is like if they are somebody that like likes you they will try and put you at ease is it a bad sign if you're feeling a bit unsure or as my friend was telling me i just need to um chill out a little bit we like how do you know if it's if it's you that you're just a bit too anxious or it's or it's them yeah do you play it cool yeah or do you go with your heart on your sleeve i would say just be you do what feels right maybe a bit a bit of both like you don't want to go in too vulnerable too soon with someone that you don't know yeah

yeah meet someone that you think oh they seem like a really nice person they seem quite open and emotionally available yeah and you know the first day get ready and it might be okay but then you think well i don't really know them So can they really like carry my stuff? And if they kind of ghost you or they act a bit different afterwards, it's like you've given all of it. Yeah. So I think it is about, it's a balance, isn't it? Like trusting yourself to know how much to share and how much to keep to yourself.

And as the dates go on, you will start to know the time when you can really reveal all of you because it will just come organically yes yeah i remember this this this guy this girl's a person as well right so they're also coming with their stuff maybe anxious as well you gotta get in there and sniff them i think claire she did she texted you. I've just got a message in from Claire. And Claire says she apologises if this sounds like something a schoolchild would ask.

But how do you know if somebody likes you? That's a good question. I feel like it's different in different settings. Sometimes you have to just follow your heart and you kind of can feel the energy. They say a lot in terms of eye contact that you can know if somebody is into you. they they kind of hold the gaze a little bit longer um and then sometimes you know if you've been with someone where you really

like each other and you hold the gate I'm like, must not break eye contact with Charlene. She must know that I like her. Carry on. I realise as I'm saying that, I'm like, but yeah, I think that's the thing, right? When they kind of hold the eye contact like that. Okay. Then you kind of know that there's a bit of a connection. And then sometimes you can just feel it in your body because there's that connection.

You're both feeling it. But how do you know they're feeling it? That's it, because sometimes I'm feeling it and I'm like, they must feel this, but maybe they don't feel it. Yeah. If you feel something, does that mean that they feel something?

Not necessarily. Okay. This is good for us to know. Yeah. That's what's so difficult is that you're like, wait, is there a vibe here? And then you don't know if there is or not.

I think that when you're in the right situation, I think you will know. I genuinely think you will know. And I think that if you're in the right situation, I think you will know. I genuinely think you will know. And I think that if you're not sure, it will become more apparent the more you're with them. Okay, yeah. And also there are certain behaviours as well that will suggest that someone likes you, right?

So their ability to sacrifice their time, you know, their... And it is a sacrifice to be with me. Thank you, Shelly, that's the right way to put it. But in terms of like, for example, it is a sacrifice to be with me. Thank you, Shelly. That's the right way to put it. Thank you. But in terms of like, you know, for example, like maybe they should have been at work,

you know, early in the morning and they kind of, they want to go a bit later because they want to spend a little time with you or they finish work a bit early to come and meet you. You know, there are little signs that you can see that you're like, oh, actually they're changing their lifestyle a little bit to meet you. Or they might say something like, I was telling my friend at work about you today that's I mean that could also be like

running for the hills oh my gosh oh my god kind of thing but also like it's it's a nice thing isn't it because it shows that they're open about meeting someone they've met you or if they say oh yeah I was telling my friend that was going on this date like and yeah they asked me how it went and I was just saying you know like things, and yeah, they asked me how it went. And I was just saying, you know, like things like that. Yeah, that's really good. You start to think, okay, this is someone that is interested in this.

Yes, and I think that's it. Rather than, I think we may be, especially Claire, go to them a little bit and be like, oh, I'll come meet you. Like, don't worry about it. Like, I'll go out of my way and do all these things and try and help you. Or, oh, you need that book?

I'll do that. Or you need me to drive you here? You know i'll pick up your laundry like this kind of stuff like we need to stop doing that stuff and maybe let them come to us a little bit and do those things because do you think it's that that's a way of testing if they like not testing them but like let's letting them we will see how you behave in my three my three challenges um but letting them behave in a certain way because rather than us always bending over for them a little bit yes bending over was the wrong yeah i think you'd know quite quickly if they liked you. Yeah. That's a surefire way to find out, Harriet.

Got you. Yeah. Okay. You can bend over. Or you could just, I mean, I would say, like, take the game aspect out of it. Because I think, look, when you're in your 20s, it is all about the game. Like, I'm not going to message him first. Oh, my gosh, he's messaged me.

I'm going to pretend I'm busy. And I'm not going to show him that I'm online now. You know, it you know it's all of that right yeah and that could be a full-time job in itself just doing all of that yeah it's tiring and sometimes it backfires okay because it sends out the wrong messages to the someone you actually like but I think you know as you get older more mature particularly if you're looking for something a bit more serious you do want to show an element of vulnerability you do want to show your personality so if you are someone that's quite kind you know for example if they're looking for a new job and you've got a day off you know there's nothing wrong in saying hey like I can you know send you a few like jobs

I've seen or something like that now of course you've got to balance it if you're someone that gives a lot I've got to be careful I've quit my job so you can have it yeah day one so you've got to get the balance right you've got to get the balance I get it I do get it but no game playing

I suppose is what I'm saying it's so hard to get rid of that stuff that we grew up with those games that you grow up with because it's wars isn't it yeah

because you're like I don't want to seem too keen because it almost feels like being keen is off putting but you know with the right person you don't have to play all those games. Yeah. Because if you think about it, you know, when you think about, let's say, an ex.

But, you know, like when you first met that ex, right, that feeling. Usually it's a situation where it's not so difficult. It's like the universe just kind of brought you together in some way. Yeah. And you just laughed together and had fun together. And there was no like, is he going to call me because he just did, you know? And it's like, I'm going to pretend I'm not interested because you didn't need to play that game because it was clear that you were both kind of on the same page. But when someone's serious, you don't really need to play the game.

Yeah. It's when they're not that you're like, oh, I've not heard from them. Classic example, my friend who i hope's not listening claire she met a guy on friday on her way to work in the morning right he didn't message her a call they exchanged numbers yeah on the tube. So he came up to her. You know, I mean, she's an ex-model, so I don't know. OK. Yeah. Yeah. It's not happening to me in the morning.

And of course, we're all models in our own way. We're all models. We're a model to someone. But she, I mean, she's beautiful. But, you know, she, so she was like walking down the road. And then this guy walked up to her. They started chatting. They exchanged numbers. And he didn't message or call for the whole day. So, you know, the logical part of us is like, okay, that's fine.

He's probably at work or whatever. He didn't call or text on Saturday either. And you think, okay, maybe you had a late night on Friday night. And so Saturday, that meant that you weren't able to do it either. Neither Sunday nor Monday. And Tuesday night, message, hey, how you doing?

But did you say that they exchanged numbers? Did she have his number? She did. But also it's interesting that she didn't make, or did she message him? Well, I think she did. She did. Oh, she messaged him on that Friday

and he didn't message back on the Tuesday. Oh, I see. Oh, I'm furious. Now, I would say that he's not serious. Yeah. But it might be also worth finding out, like, just a little bit more about him, what his day-to-day life's like.

Maybe there's something else going on. But from my experience, both personally and professionally, usually that's someone that's not very serious. Yes, yeah. He collected the number, he had a fun weekend, got to Tuesday, felt a bit bored.

But then also could be thinking, oh my God, is she out of my league? Like I feel a bit uncomfortable and I'm not sure, would she be? You know, there's so many stories. If you're going up to a woman at 8am in the morning on the street, like you're not worried. You can send a message. But you know what? And I would usually say that.

But again, you know, some of the clients that I work with, sometimes guys feel really confident in the moment to kind of go up to a woman. But when they go back home, they're like, I'm not sure if she's going to message back or they don't feel good enough or if they don't really have a good job they're like you know she looks like a kind of like professional business woman how can I tell her I've not I've not got a job right now you know so yeah yeah there's so much stuff that goes on in people's lives you know imagine men thinking those things like you just imagine them being like oh god, God, Harriet again. And also as well, I suppose if you're on TV as well, that could be quite difficult for them to, you know,

they're then thinking like, can I match up to what you can do and am I going to be good enough for you? So there's all of that as well, you know, and I think about when I sort of casually say to people, oh, yeah, when I was at the BAFTAs, you notice people's face expressions change and then if you're in the industry, it's like, itFTAs, I just, you know, you notice people's basic specials change and then if you're in the industry, it's like, it's not a big deal. Unless you win, of course. Which we didn't.

I'm married on the first night. Boo. She's still obtainable. Don't worry. But yeah, so people can be intimidated as well. So there's lots of reasons why people don't read. Yeah. Be not too much this weekend. I think one of the big things we wanted to ask you as well is,

me and Amy, you know, we're flirting is... Go on. I'll just speak for myself. It's not necessarily something that I know how, when, why. Why? What. Help to say words. Okay.

Because I don't know what to do. I don't know how to... I just want to hide in a hole. Yeah. And I have friends that are so confident and they'll kind of touch and they'll, you know, they'll stare and they'll get eye contact and they'll, like, say, like, flirty things. Like, I just, I, like, look at the floor and then I go, well, silly. So there's different ways of flirting and not everyone feels comfortable

like putting a hand on somebody or, you know, kind of sexual innuendos or anything like that. But just like little jokes or just hold the eye contact for a little bit longer. But remember as well, you have to kind of feel comfortable in someone's presence. So you don't want to push yourself to be flirtatious with someone that you don't really know yet because you don't really feel emotionally safe with them yet to be able to do that.

Usually it's when you kind of know someone a little bit better that you feel like, okay, I can give them a bit of a wink or a bit of a wave or, you know, a little blow, a little kiss or something. I've definitely done that. So brave. Let's bring winking back. Yeah, winking's good.

I don't know ifinking's good can you wink I put so much into that I know you did maybe winking's not the one okay finally we've learnt in a safe space yeah I feel really safe right now but also as well comedy right

so you're comfortable with comedy you're a comedian so I mean you you've kind of got like a step ahead of quite a few people in terms of like throwing in those sort of jokes that at the right time yeah this might be one of the problems is it's like either self-deprecating or it just gets a bit silly and then you're on this like path of nonsense yeah I yeah I gave some examples in the last episode of where I think I'm flirting. Yeah. I presume this is flirting.

When I'm chatting to somebody that I've got a crush on, I find a thing, like one thing. An example that I gave was a very beautiful boy messaged me, I brought up ham. Charlie looks so confused. How did ham come into the conversation Charlie I don't know I don't know

she can work it into any conversation somehow ham came up and then I sort of thought haha but it was like in a jerky way and then days passed and we'd only still talked about ham but in like a funny way and I told Harriet earlier

it got to the point where I've bought a domain a website domain called is it ham.org and I'd got too far into the joke where I can't sort of backtrack and be like hey pretty eyes but that's I think this is how I feel comfortable and I find it really difficult making a shift between like jerky, jerky friends. And then sometimes, you know, you'll have a friend and you'll be like jerking, jerky, jerking. And you don't think you've got a crush on them. And then one day you're like, I've got a bit of a crush on you. But then how do you change the gear to just talking about ham to flirting?

Is this a question you get asked a lot I've never been asked this question in your book about how to deal with ham questions but you know what's interesting about this ham question though is that there's a lot of things there's a lot of things interesting about this question you know but you know whether it's ham or whether it's something else that we we we bring to the table in terms of this conversation. Yes. I suppose I wonder, does that kind of keep you safe from kind of getting too close to someone, you know, like being too vulnerable?

Yeah, a metaphorical hand in between you. Because jokes can be really good and, like, humour can be great in terms of, like, creating that intimate connection, right? You know, when you can laugh with somebody and sort of mess around with each other, that can sometimes be foreplay in itself. And then that can lead to some rumpy-pumpy. But in the same breath, it could also kind of keep people away from you.

Because when you make a joke, you're laughing at the joke from afar, right? You're sort of ha-ha-ha-ha-ha. But then it means they don't get closer to you. So the more you can kind of keep batting it back with a joke the more you guys just stay in that joking space yes and I think it's about just recognizing that in yourself and knowing when to kind of reel it back in sometimes some people have like kind of questions obviously it needs to kind of come naturally though so it doesn't sound like you're just reading off a bit of paper but sometimes people have like their go-to questions when it comes to dating because they know it will generate conversation. And it could be something like, I don't know, what are you looking for in a partner?

Have you got any holidays booked? And then, you know, talking about places that you've been to and what you like about travelling or that kind of thing. So I think it's about recognising that that might be your defence mechanism. Yes. Reeling it in where you notice that you're doing it and then go to your go-to questions. Yes. Particularly those that kind of generate conversation if you've got someone that's a talker because that's probably difficult if you've got someone that's not much of a talker yeah

you're trying to ask questions they're like yeah no no no holidays yeah so get there before you buy the domain is it ham.org okay but where could you have turned it do you think how do you think like looking back now you could have turned that into i guess i guess mentioning like a ham restaurant like somewhere that like is that how you kind of get it back or like you could just be you could just say okay enough of the ham now right like yeah that is enough you do need to say enough of the ham now i'd like to actually get to know you a little bit. Tell me about yourself. You can do it like that. I think sometimes when we're in these situations, we don't feel as powerful to take control of a situation.

But you can direct the conversation in whichever way you want to. So if it's important for you to know about whether they want more children or whether they want to go on nice holidays, whatever it may be. I'm not saying go from ham to talking about kids straight away sure but you can just find something a bit more light-hearted like enough about the ham tell me about your day what's been going on you yes and just keep it all light and yeah like we're also in charge of the conversations because it feels like you're not in control you're just like on a ham slide and it's just you're gaining like ham as you go down and it's just you feel like you have no control but you can jump off at some

point and just be like look we've done ham and it's just, you feel like you have no control, but you can jump off at some point and just be like, look, we've done ham. And I think you're correct. It's a defence mechanism and it's a way for me interacting with someone I like and, you know, is a potential crush. Yeah. But without putting myself out there at all. Yeah. If they turned around and was like, oh, no, no, no, it's not like that. I'd be like, I'm only talking about ham. Right. Yeah.

You can't get me for that. But it helps you to feel in control as well because whilst you're talking about, I can't believe we're talking about ham. It's happening again. This is how easy it is. Can I get off that? Whilst you talk about ham, it means you're in control.

You don't have to feel any of those vulnerable feelings. You know that in that space, you're not going to get rejected. You're not going to have a question asked to you that you're going to feel uncomfortable answering but you don't have to really be that vulnerable in the space and so in a way it kind of keeps you from that kind of intimate connection yeah keeps you safe it means you don't have to get too close isn't it yeah yeah okay so that's your homework that's my homework enough of the ham just release the safety net a little bit and be a bit more of it,

like honest and authentic and available. Amy, we've got to get out there. What is your first date advice? Because that's something that is coming, Amy. It's coming for you. It's coming. First dates are coming. Yeah.

What specifically would you want to know in terms of a first date? What's the question? How? Again, how? Why? What? The scariest bit is definitely the beginning of the date, obviously. Yeah.

So say you've arranged a date, something classic. We're going for drinks. Yes. Could you just talk us through the first few minutes of the date? How we're expected to feel? How we sort of cope? Have you got any strategies to sort of make that bit a bit easier? So I think with online dating in particular,

I think if you could do a video call beforehand, that can sometimes help to release some of the anxiety. Not everyone wants to do that, though. Yeah, it's kind of almost scarier in a way. I don know yeah I think you have to play around with it so for some people they've said like a video call has really helped because they've really got to see the person so straight away they know that they fancy them as well yeah and that the attraction is mutual you then don't have to worry like are they going to find me attractive because the video calls kind of maybe showing that actually there is that attraction and you're both excited to see each other.

So that really helps. Phone calls as well. So, you know, if you've heard their voice, you're speaking to them and you've also seen them as well. It just releases the anxiety just a little bit. Yeah. Otherwise, it's kind of somewhat full blown blind date, which is like quite anxiety provoking in itself. Right. So that can potentially help.

And then I would say try to choose somewhere or be involved in the arrangements where it's somewhere that you feel comfortable going, somewhere that you know. So a friend of mine goes to like literally the same place and I'm sure people around are wondering, like she's like meeting different guys every week and sometimes they sit on the same chair.

Oh my God, amazing. I like that though. That's what I like to have a spot and you know, you feel comfortable. Yeah. There's a great place in Stratford, I'll tell you afterwards. It's fantastic. We'll all wink at each other as we take our boots. And you'll actually like people on dates there as well.

So it's quite a nice little cozy space. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. It is a part of a hotel as well. So there's a hotel upstairs. Hey-o. Hey. I know what she's up to.

That's what I'm talking about. But yeah, so maybe somewhere that you feel comfortable, I think it's really good. But then also, when you then meet the person, I suppose it's about keeping it

like light and fun as well. And I think jokes, you guys, you know, obviously comedians, so like jokes are fine, but I think obviously you've got to be careful

in terms of like not getting too carried away with the jokes. Harriet, are you paying attention to this? Yeah you do whatever that can help you know like even you know like hey surprise it's me and you know they're obviously going to be really nervous as well yeah and then just kind of like take a control a little bit you know like should take a seat or they might say let's take a seat like you just keep it like really fun like they

might be nervous too that's the thing You always get that they're humans. Yeah. And also as well, you know, like when you, when you're in a relationship with a guy and then they tell you how nervous they were when they first met you, you realise like, wow,

like they went to some length. Like they went to the barbers that day and their friend called them to say, are you on your way? And it's like, then they had to clean their car just in case you came back in my car. Yeah, think about things on their way. Yeah.

Like, they're all so nervous as well. And then there's a whole like, who pays? Like, is she expecting me to pay? Do we go half? You know,

I remember a guy years ago saying, I want to pay for your meal. And I was like, great. I'll wait for it too. But he was like, he was like, I don't,

you know, I know we're like in like, I don't know, whatever year it was, 20, 20, whatever, you know,

that it should be all equal and stuff. So I don't know how you feel. I don't want you to feel like I'm being a bit chauvinistic. I'm like, I know we're in like, I don't know, whatever year it was, 20, whatever, you know, that it should be all equal and stuff. So I don't know how you feel. I don't want you to feel like I'm being a bit chauvinistic. I'm like, babe, no, you can pay. I'm a 1950s girl, it's all right. You can pay, baby. But yeah, but you know, they don't know what your rules and regulations are around that. So they're also nervous as well. And I think usually what happens, the most anxiety provoking part is just before you've met yeah but once you actually sat down and they're in front of you it's like married at first sight yeah once you've met them once you've met them it's all okay yeah yeah or kind of kind of yeah well sometimes what have you learned from doing married at first sight I guess

you see so many couples yeah what are the things you've taken away from it it's shown me that relationships are not straightforward they're so complex you know that on Monday a couple could be fully in love and on Tuesday they could be ready to divorce like it can change so quickly yeah and also as well that so many of us come to relationships not really knowing what we're doing you know the only bit that we're sure of is that we fancy each other and that we kind of enjoy being in each other's company, but we don't really know how to do it because, you know, oftentimes, you know, we're not taught about this, are we? Like our parents, our family, we've either got relationship templates that haven't been very healthy and we probably wouldn't want to follow that. Or we've kind of picked things up along the way from watching Home and away neighbours and these things or whatever and then all of a sudden we're like

Charlene and Scott you know we're trying to imitate that but you know we're not taught how to manage conflicts how to communicate and so it's it's not easy for all of us we're all in this together which brings me very nicely onto my new book Come. Yes! It's got a very sexy cover and a very sexy title. It's very sexy. I've got the book here, so this is Come Closer. It's beautiful, actually. It's so nice. Come Closer, everything you ever

wanted to ask a sex relationship therapist, will you do that? Oh! We were talking about the cover earlier. Are they having sex? They've been intimate. Sorry for my truth. Oh, Nick, we were talking about the cover earlier. Are they having sex? They've been intimate. Hurry up. Sorry for my truth.

Yeah, they're close. Are they fucking chatting? They're coming closer. They're coming closer. But yeah, I talk about this in my book, like the fact that when you meet somebody that you don't quite know, you don't necessarily know how to do it, you know,

and your parents maybe didn't show you, your uncles, aunts, teachers, no one showed you how to do it. So you just come in trying to work it out and hoping for the best. Yeah, yeah. So what is your advice there then? Don't get into relationships. So I think it's about working on yourself and I think it's about understanding like what your definition is of relationships,

like what boundaries look like to you, what communication looks like to you, what does conflict management look like to you? How do you manage conflict in a healthy way? Like we're so lucky nowadays because we have social media, you know, we've got these platforms where we can find out things. There are lots of websites that you can go to where you can find out like how to communicate healthily, how to manage conflict without, you know, doing it in a way that's just so explosive um and I think that yeah I think once we we do that you know you then hopefully then gravitate

towards a person that's also done that and you work on it together it's you know you know this goes on for years it's not something that you it's not something that you just get straight away like you have to keep working on it but both of you have to be committed to working on it yes that's all heavy isn't it no no no god no i would love to talk about the first move i'd love to talk about No. No. No. God, no. I would love to talk about the first move. I'd love to talk about... This is the... I can wrap my head around a date. Yeah.

Don't exclusively talk about meat products. I can get that. Fine. I can't... It's been so long of me doing this. I can't picture the bit where you go from wanting to kiss someone and not kissing to kissing someone. I can't imagine how that has ever happened.

And listen, I've kissed people before, just so everyone knows. But I can't imagine having a first kiss with someone. Yeah. Because it's been so many years. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, oftentimes with things like this, it feels more anxiety provoking

thinking about it than actually being in the space. Because when you're in the space with someone where there's a connection, what happens is through the conversation, through the jokes about ham

and the not ham or whatever it may be, through sharing experiences of holidays that you've been to and you know maybe the fact that you've both been to the same place and what what it was like you're laughing about things that no one has ever thought was funny but you both have thought about like all those little things just do something like even hormonally you know like in terms of like the oxytocin and all those kind of hormones that just start racing so already already something's in the mix. So by the time you get to the stage where you both feel like you want to kiss,

sometimes you might even notice with a guy or a girl that if you're with them, that the conversation's got to such a point that you both can't find any more words. And you might even notice that they flinch a little bit, or you might flinch a little bit, because it's like something just happens organically where you're just drawn to them. Oh, my God. And I think, you know, as I'm describing it,

you probably remember. I'm so excited. They're out there. Oh, my God. Yeah. And then that happens. And then, like, usually what would happen in that space, like someone will find the words to say something.

Well, they might even say, like, I want to kiss you. And you're, yeah. you forget all this that's yeah yeah when you're in the but what i'm saying is is that you it's not like you go from the non-sexual space at sexual space you just lunge straight in yeah ham ham ham kiss yeah yeah yeah exactly it doesn't know and to go back to my book i talk about this in my book the fact that the importance of well the importance of allowing things to kind of like get to that stage because you know so often right you'll hear like i don't know i'm gonna this is very like stereotypical here like heterosexual couple the guy expects the woman to come from work when she's at home that she's ready to like rip his clothes off and like swing from the chandeliers and that kind of

stuff right yeah the reality is is that if you've been in that non-sexual space of being at work being with family being with friends being in a boardroom whatever you're not we're not usually in a sexual mindset yeah so it does take like a bit of a build-up you know a kiss a hug or even non-sexual things like you know your partner like tidying up the house and, or just doing something really thoughtful. Yeah. Just something thoughtful, right? And they thought about you or they know that you need to go, you know, wake up earlier the next morning. So they put petrol in your car, just something where you like, gonna cry, beautiful, but things like that, it kind of like builds emotional intimacy. And then you might then have a bit of a cuddle and a

hug and then you'll notice like the hormones going. And that's when you kind of like builds emotional intimacy. And then you might then have a bit of a cuddle and a hug. And then you'll notice like the hormones going. And that's when you kind of maybe feel more inclined to like drawing for a kiss. So I would think, I would say in terms of like a first date, don't overthink it. Yeah. I think it's more that it will happen naturally if it's meant to happen. If it's going to happen, we'll end up on a course to it. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yes, that makes sense. I have one more question. Yes, okay. How do you meet people in real life if you're not a model? If you're not a model. I think interests and hobbies are always really good. So going to places.

Yeah, so going to places that you just know that you're going to have a lot of fun. But also I think you have to be a bit strategic as well. You have to make sure you're going to places where there are the types of people that you're going to potentially yeah have an interest in okay so go to places where there's going to be uh people that you are probably interested in I suppose it's about being out there I think what we're saying is that you don't want to be in a situation where you're just focused on being on the apps like Saturday morning morning saturday night sunday morning sunday night because

you then get to a stage where you've swiped everyone yeah that that is a reality where it's like there's no more people in your area yeah oh my god yeah in saying that though just in terms of online dating apps there are some apps where you can set it to different parts of the uk as well and the world yeah if you're also interested in dating people outside of your area. Hawaii, hello. Yeah, so you could set it to like say Manchester or Birmingham

if you're, because you never think about it. Yeah, Hawaii, probably. You're not Manchester though. Well, you've got the option to go to Hawaii. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You've got the option there as well.

Thank you so much, Charlene. This has been brilliant. It's been so helpful where can people get your book so all good bookstores come closer everything you ever want to ask a sex

and relationship therapist fantastic I'm going to devour that book I might get it tattooed on myself so when I'm in

these first dates I'm thinking I think a kiss might be coming is it alright if I just raise my leg for a second just let it happen get in the space okay yeah I'm ready

yeah do let me know how it goes though because I feel like you guys are going to enter the world and like people are going to be like oh my gosh here they are here they are here they are the hamming girl. The good luck.

Thank you. Thank you. You're very welcome. And how do you kiss someone? Amy, you just got a lunge. Well, I like Charlene. Oh, what an absolute legend. And Claire.

Let's not forget Claire. Let's never forget Claire, please. Never forget the Claires of this world. But Charlene, I feel more confident just having been in her presence. Is that weird? Yeah, she's got a very confident kind of like energy that's just like, I don't know, it's just like a good energy. Yeah.

Because I don't know about my energy. My energy is just like a rabbit or something. You're in a hutch. Get out of the hutch. Get out of the hutch. Get out of the hutch. Yeah, she's got a really good energy. Yeah, I want to be more like Charlene. It's funny how I've met her.

I met her with my husband and then now she's given me advice on being single. Don't know where we go from here. Next time I see her, what's going to happen next time? I don't know. Maybe she'll officiate. I was going to say fisted. Maybe she'll fist your next partner with all her confidence. Like just a metaphorical fisting.

Yes. With her confidence. Yes. And I think it's difficult to get a read, but I would say she wasn't overly keen on my ham stuff it's really it's really good you recognize that yeah I think that's um that's growth that you could that you read that from her response right yes I will say in my diary in my calendar I looking, skimming through and I was like, what's this notification that's like a year in advance?

And it's me saying, cancel the subscription to ham.org. Otherwise it's going to renew. And currently I'm doing nothing with it. Or we could sell it to somebody that's like, it's like a, I can't believe it's not butter,

but like it's like a vegan version of ham. Like, is it ham? It's not, it's corn. Is there anyone like that would sit? Is it ham? No, it's loneliness. Anyway, yeah, I love Chalene. I need to read her book yeah it's very sexy i'm just looking at the cover the cover's so sexy and it's called come closer come on come on oh that's a rude word

closer and then yeah there's like the the red figure is like straddling the man. It's a very exciting book. And obviously the tagline is, everything you ever wanted to ask a sex and relationship therapist. I'm just staring at that cover. Yeah, do you need a moment? I think we're going to have to slide off the book shortly. This rabbit thing has really taken on a new meaning. Hello, me again, Amy Gledhill, but this time I'm with... Not Harriet Kemsley.

Whoa, WT, fuck! What's going on? I'm with bloody Ian Smith. Off at Northern News podcast. Yes, a podcast that's not about the news. Don't worry, single ladies. No, it's not about the news. It's not about being single.

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