Single Ladies In Your Area - Flirting Advice and Attachment Styles with Cate MacKenzie (The Love Coach)

Episode Date: November 29, 2024

This week Harriet and Amy are joined by sex and relationships therapist Cate Mackenzie, to learn how to flirt and about dating attachment styles. How do you flirt? What are the different attachment styles? And can an anxious octopus ever be with an avoidant turtle?Check out Cate's upcoming events, workshops or talks at catemackenzie.comWe want to hear your dating stories! Email in at [e-mail] Single Ladies In Your Area on Instagram @singleladiespodRecorded and edited by Aniya Das for Plosive.Photos by Matt Crockett and Linda Blacker.Design by Welcome Studio. Get bonus content on Patreon Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Amy Gledhill. And I'm Harriet Kemsley. We're both single and in our 30s. And we've found ourselves back on the dating scene. And the landscape has changed. Everyone has settled down. But we're back out there. And we're desperately trying to figure out what the hell we should be doing.

So we're going to speak to experts, chat about dates we've been on. If we manage to get any. And share your tips and horror stories. So we all feel less alone we might even get our exes on yeah we'll see about that this is single ladies in your area this week i told harriet about sending a mortifyingly honest text to a boy and joining us later is the love coach kate mckinsey kate is a sex and relationship therapist love coach and artist she does workshops around the world to help people find love and love

themselves and she's here to help us learn how to flirt we also go quite in depth on dating attachment styles and wowie did we need that. Hello, little lady. Hello, how are you doing? I'm okay. I'm tired. Okay, that's the energy we need for this. Is that sexy? Yes.

Is that what they want? I hope so, because I feel it too. Yes. It's just hard to always be like waking up every morning, birds singing, getting outside getting outside thinking this could be the day i could meet the love of my life you know you're just like i just want to get this fucking day done with sit down um i've i've had a crush on somebody no because what i've realized is i am not my best version of myself when i've got a crush on someone. I'm a maniac.

Did you know this? I did notice. Did you? I did. I did notice. Oh, you did. I sent you quite a lot of messages. I did notice. Yes. Whenever you have a crush, there's ham, there's domains. It becomes a whole story. Yeah. So yeah, I've noticed. noticed okay okay well that's good to know well the two big things have overlapped and the two big things are having a crush on someone and also being pre-period yes i am a wild woman who needs to be kept away from the world in for like three or four days i cannot trust myself is that normal I think in our realm but I don't know what other people are doing like that's also I also have that but it's like more than three to four days it's more like 34 days okay it's the whole cycle basically the whole

cycle at each point there's a different there's a different thing that's a different crisis yeah yeah uh-huh I love having a crush so much I'm always good with a crush because you're very open with it and I'm very like oh god I don't want to tell anybody because they're going to find out and be like oh god that's so embarrassing like that Harriet would like think that I might like her and then everyone's gonna be like oh god but I love that about you. I think it's a really wonderful quality. I think you make it so fun. And I think it's like, it's lovely to be a part of it with you. Like, yes, you're a maniac with it. But like, in a fun, lovely way.

And one day it's going to work out so beautifully. Do you think? I love it. I think I'm going to scare everyone away who I ever have a crush on. You're going to scare away all the wrong people. Yeah. But the right person is going to be like, this is incredible. Oh, my God.

Do you think so? Yeah. Sorry for saying you're going to scare away a lot of people. No, I respect you. You are telling me the truth. Okay. Well, that's really interesting. I told a person I had a crush on them.

That's so brave. I know. It's really brave. When did I told I told a person I had a crush on them that's so brave I know it's really brave when did I do it 5am via text was this at the the start of your day

you joined the 5am club you got up you thought first line of business gotta tell my crush and then cold shower or what do you think I'm thinking it might have been at the end of the year it was very much you thought first line of business, got to tell my crush and then cold shower. Or what do you think?

I'm thinking it might've been at the end of the evening. It was very much at the end of the evening. Very much at the end of the evening. Sent a long old text. It was all spelt correctly and I couldn't believe it. And I woke up and I saw, I woke up at like 8am because I was like, my body was going, what have we done? And I woke up and I saw my phone and I was like, oh, up at like 8am because I was like my body was going what have we done and I woke up and I saw my phone and I was like oh a message at 8am this is cool who's this from

oh it's from him oh that's nice you forgot you sent it yes of course I forgot I sent it and then I read his response to it and then I just responded oh no and I and I scrolled up a bit and saw the length of the message and was like I can't read that right now I'm gonna ask you now if I can see the message please don't like like it or something oh my god this is this is so stressful wow that is long that is it's long it's really long and what I love about it is you've written in verse. It's a poem. You've written four to five words and then pressed return.

And so it's like a very, it looks like a song. Because also you've got a lot of brackets, like the chorus. Oh, God. Take it to the bridge. Oh, no. It's so lovely and this is exactly it like you're so open and I think it's um I think it's beautiful and I want to frame it. So yeah so that's that was the scariest thing. That's what I love that you feel it so much and then you just say it that's so good and I think that then you're also you're gonna you're gonna get through them quickly because you feel it so strongly you tell everybody and then you tell the person and then you move on everybody harriet bloody hell yes i'm saying it

on a podcast to strangers but other than that what you think i'm telling people that aren't listening to the podcast no way this is a secret between me you him and anyone that listens oh god i just find them that's good it's all consuming that but that's i love that so much because i try and repress it and i try and pretend and i'm just like and then i just get really weird and i like can't speak to them and I'm just like yeah I'm not I don't give a like you what are you talking about you're a loser yeah exactly yeah I hate you actually yeah I literally do that to try and defend it and it's like it's just so because like people like ask me like if I have any crushes and I like literally can't say, because I just, I just feel like if they were to hear it, they would just vomit in a bush and be like,

I like, I would just be so embarrassed. You just don't know who likes you, who is on your level. Do you know what I mean? Like this is it. Then you're like, am I shooting too high?

Yeah. Like what do I just get the dregs? Like, I don't know what level I'm on. And I think you just have to be, you have to be so embarrassing and like a bit cringe what do you mean whoa whoa whoa no I'm talking about myself I'm talking about myself because you have to let them know somehow and so you have to be a bit like a bit cringe and like let them know and then be like I like you is that something that you like and then you like, I like you. Is that something that you like? And then you have to put yourself out there.

Otherwise, nothing ever happens. But then what if you've completely missed the mark? Like, I just want someone to be like, okay, this is your ballpark. You've got from here to here. These are the kind of people that would be interested in you. Don't even bother up there. You can do a bit better than those. Do you know what I mean?

I find it so confusing. Crushes are hard. Crushes are really hard. But I think you're handling it so well. That's not true because we know this pre-period weekend, I have sent you a message that was mad and you did, in the kindest way possible, go, yeah, you are being mad. Because there was a point where I was like like i'm never going to speak to any men

again actually yeah i absolutely hit every single one of them yeah i just nowhere and i hit this and he's going to do this and this and you were like okay why don't you i think you said like uh-huh why don't you just wait till tomorrow and see how you feel and i did and i felt 100 different and i was like, I'm so happy. Well, luckily for us, we have an expert and I think she's going to whip us into shape. We've got Kate McKenzie. Oh, yeah. We're going to learn so much. Maybe improve our confidence. Please.

Please, Kate. Oh, my God. Come on. Kate. Is it how? We're very excited to be here with kate mckenzie we're desperate we need your help we don't know how to do this well i've seen you both obviously perform and you are both deeply deeply charismatic which is a massive key in dating and flirting i mean kate's flirting with us. It's working. I flirt all the time. I flirt all the time.

But as you know, you are flirting with massive audiences all the time. Do you think? That's easier though. That's easier than one-on-one. Yeah. You have these skills and clearly you are happy.

I understand there's differences, but if you can kind of imagine that date is your audience yeah and you know both of you take space on stage in your body in your breath and flirt with the audience you couldn't have audiences packing out your shows without your flirting skills but what can happen of course is like you said one arena can feel more comfy how do you translate that yeah to another arena and that's what we could talk about as well what happens to you two in connecting dating because if you can do something somewhere and you're packed with those skills you can do it somewhere

else it's how do you keep that up so that you're not clouded by any low self-esteem or lack of confidence you can kind of just keep that kind of energy that you go with on stage to other places. I don't know if you feel like this, Harriet, but I would say on stage, because it's comedy and humour, then it's like, oh, well, if you don't find me sexy, that's fine because I don't even really want you to

because I'm just being funny. But when it's with a guy and you're like, oh, I desperately want you to find me attractive, it becomes more serious and then and then I panic yes sometimes I can go into a mode where it's like oh I'm a different person that's trying to be sexy and isn't funny is serious sexuality but it's not sexy or serious or working in any way it all makes sense it sounds like on stage you're having a laugh, even if like you have to deal with a heckler or you have to deal with something going completely

wrong or the sound doesn't work. You're still going to ride that. You've committed to it. Yeah. And it sounds like possibly on a date you go into your head and then you're doing all this negative speak and rumination, which is not quite as sexy as, hey guys, I know you like me. So what I'm saying is you've got to kind of like, in the 18th century, it was traditional that when people went out, of course, probably of a certain class, but actually working class people, working class women, had a lot of freedom at that time to go out

because middle class women and upper class women had to be escorted. But still, there was an idea that when you went out in the 18th century to playhouses, to parties, to theatre, to coffee shops, you dressed up, you played a role. When you went home, you put your comfy rags on and you were yourself at home. But the idea was you go out. So it's a bit like treating a date as a gig. It's a gig. Because the thing is that it's not okay to reveal vulnerability and that's sexy in itself. But it's like sometimes where people understandably maybe go too fast on a date is they start revealing vulnerabilities too quick.

Yeah. Whereas actually you are the sex goddess that they think you are. And so hold that. And that might mean that before a date you might want to do 10 minutes of dancing that gets you in whatever it is for you or self-massage or a tape self-massage i know you're good at this i know we're thinking the same thing self-massage well just to kind of what happens is this is where i can see them yeah it's hacking hormones okay so as soon as you touch yourself you're building oxytocin or if you flirt with the barista in the coffee shop you're building oxytocin. Or if you flirt with the barista in the coffee shop,

you're building oxytocin. So you should be kind to someone. So if you do a few things, dating is nerve wracking. So is going on stage, but maybe you'll hack to how to get yourself on stage. But all these things are nerve wracking. So what can you do to build your body confidence before you go on a date?

I think this is so interesting because sometimes the day will begin and I'll be like, oh, I just gave up on today. Like I'm never going to meet anyone in this mode. Like I look awful. Like I'm just like, there's no chance. But if you have a day where you're like a bit on,

like anything can happen. But those days are rare. So it's what do you need to help you get in the zone? So some people do cold water swimming. Some people have a mate they ring. Some people listen to certain tracks, My Way or Donna Summer or Rage Against the Machine. Whatever it is that's going to like absolutely get you out of that head

into your body, maybe an outfit will do it. It's like you're getting ready for stage. This is actually lovely life advice. Yeah. I think what can be confusing is you're not saying to be somebody else. You're saying to be like the most heightened, best version of yourself. Yeah. Within reason, it's not to say you haven't got your vulnerability, but put your vulnerability

with your mate. Because for first date, second date. Yeah. Give me the vulnerability. You've got to deal with all of this. Because it's like on the first date is not to like tell your worst life thing that's happened to you on the first or second date. Because the thing is, any person who's doing okay in their life, it's happened to you on the first or second date because the thing is

any person who's doing okay in their life it's going to be a bit concerned for you and that's not that's not a date yes that's a kind of you're looking for a therapist and that person's taking that role yeah i've been there i've done that i'm a i'm a real over sharer in a panic if the conversation comes to a lull, I'll be like, this happened to me six years ago. Do you want to hear about it or not? God, no. So this is the thing

that's also completely normal and understandable. And because you both speak for a living and it's important and you're very, very funny and quick and also tell stories. It's a really important part of your life on a date ideally you want to do way more listening yeah because you're also finding out

about them this is their job interview as well as well as your job interview and if we do that one you might go home and go what did i say we all do this it's not that everybody doesn't do this but especially if this is your job yeah but you want to listen because you want to let them take care of you i know that's going to take trust because then you want to listen because you want to let them take care of you. I know that's going to take trust because then you've got to think you are the goddesses that you are, which you are absolutely gorgeous.

But, and so you might want to do... This is great, Kate. This is really good for us on the steam, actually. Well, you might want to do a little bit of kind of like feeling into that during the day as well, or through the week. If you can up your water, watch your sleep and do some stuff that moves your body,

even if it's just a simple thing. Again, choose what's right for you. But even if you did five, ten minutes dancing every day, what if it shakes you out of your head, back in your body? Or a yoga class or something that moves you, not something that's going to stress you at all. It's something that you feel like, oh, yeah, I'm just once. The rumination is when we're stuck in our head. When we get back in our body, we might feel spacious or present. Yeah.

But the other thing is whether you'd be willing to look in the mirror regularly and say, I love you. You're gorgeous. No, I don't know. I don't know if I can do that. I know it's something you're meant to do, but. Well, the thing is, then you're not expecting your date to do it because you're doing it.

And then you get used to doing it and you get used to because what happens is can you imagine all of us are doing this but we're going if you're going on a date hoping they're going to approve of you yeah they could say the wrong thing and if I haven't done the I approve of me with all my flaws with all my mistakes I still think think, yes, I'm enjoying me. Can you see how loaded that date is? Or where I could go or how upset I could get. There's too much pressure on them. So much pressure. Often what's coming up in dates is our younger selves.

Right. That didn't get seen, that didn't get met, that didn't get validated, that wasn't, you know, seen as beautiful enough. And so I'm redheaded and at school I was white freckled redheaded and curvy and yep my friends yep my friends my friends looked like the thinner more blonde or different versions than I felt so what you can do is imagine it can be a real person like if you had a grandmother you loved or a neighbour you loved,

or it could be a superhero. It could be Wonder Woman, whoever you like, goes back to those parts of you, or you go back to those parts of you who were insecure, who didn't get seen and met. These little visualisations

where you've got your Wonder Woman or your granny or whoever it is, look at a photo and go, you were great. Then we're not carrying around the same oh because i'm freckly and white and redheaded and people prefer other people you can start to work on that rather than you carrying the wound into the date does that make any sense it does because i feel like i go back to i was very shy when i was younger and on a date i go straight back to that place.

And then in real life, I'm much better. Not real life, but in just like, everything's real life. But just when I know people, then I'm this version. But when I just meet somebody, I can go back to that place of being a really shy child. So what we want to do is we want to go in with support for the younger child so you're not bringing her vulnerable her or hers the different use at different ages to that date you're going i

got you babe i got you babe um okay mine i would say i think this might be harder to go back and tell this to the child version of myself but mine is like i know one of my defences when it comes to dating is I can't imagine anyone thinking like, oh, she's sexy. Do you know what I mean? So it's like, oh, sure. They'll be like, oh, she's a nice person. She's maybe sometimes fun to be around. I can't imagine a man being like I fancy her so I it would be hard to go back to to a child I fancy you eight-year-old

is this flirting okay let's say hypothetically there's a boy i like it's friendly but i feel like if i if i pushed if i pushed it just a little bit i'm worried he will be like like taken aback like repulsed like oh no what are you doing do you know what i mean yes but okay so what tell me specifically step by step how are we women in our 30s like this is just insane like we're not teenagers this is crazy but I feel like as a teenager I was much more able to do this and now something has happened where it's like I am terrified so could you give us a few sort of practical tips on just how to how to ignite something how to how to take something from friendship gear or like just getting to know your gear into like okay i'd like to try and push this up a bit get it a bit of a sexy vibe going

so one very important that you're flirting with yourself first because what that does is that i'm going to suggest some things that when you do them if it doesn't land so well it's a bit bouncier if you're you've done some things that help your body be more relaxed does that make sense or you help yourself relax so if you're doing stuff to self-pleasure pleasure techniques maybe you've got a notebook where you're doing at least three things a day even if they're little to lift you up make you feel good i would suggest you flirt with everybody means stage one is hello so that's the postie the barista the dog the person walking the child hi hi hi the world so you're getting relaxed because

some people wait so bad at that i'm so bad this helps if you do this in a daily practice it also builds your oxytocin because kindness shifts you and shifts others then what i would really suggest is you start telling people they're hot oh my god as a practice because what it does is we're holding these things and ruminating with them in our brains yeah but it can be really liberating to start to tell people they're hot yeah and you're starting to be part of the human race rather than the outsider waiting that'd be nice wouldn't it oh to be part of the human race like an only dream but no this is so true because sometimes i begin the day and then i'm like oh i just want to get on with my day not get in anyone's way and just not just get in get out you know and then just go back to hiding isn't it

not getting in anyone's way and also I don't the idea of telling someone they're hot like I'm quite critical on myself and then that makes me critical on other people and I'm like well they're not hot because obviously look at that so you might scale it down Harriet you might you might use some different language but actually can you see how this is going to help you? Yes. Because actually we're all full of flaws. We've all got all kinds of things going on. Many of us, you might be judging yourselves in certain ways.

You might not see someone else how they're judging them because they might look a certain way, but they may have issues with their erections or other mental things that they're worried about that you're not seeing. So we're all these wonderful concoctions of multidimensionality. And when you can start to say, you know, I'm great, I'm wonderful. And I'm not saying this is easy, but once you start to do that, maybe you can also start to tell other people in the world. And it starts to build this

little golden environment. And what happens is maybe I know i fall in love with friends i'm not gonna go out with them but i fall in love with all kinds of people because i'm flirting all the time and then i meet someone in the beach or here or there and i might go you know you're amazing in this in this way it's good to be specific but if you find someone hot tell them i know you can take courage i have very black and white thinking and so it's very hard because i'm like i feel like i'm lying so you don't so can you be authentic can you wait to say so it's a specific authentic thing that we'll be waiting a really long time but what if you picked a thing where it's like your eyes are incredible your eyes yeah yeah because i know that but i'm just like i don't want to lie like i'm I don't like lying I don't like any of this stuff even though I know that

they're like attractive or whatever it's do you know what I mean like it's like I don't want to be and also it feels like really putting yourself out there to say something positive about someone else then you're like oh they're gonna get a big head and then bring them down you know get them to my level so this is the thing Harriet you gotta be've got to be where you are. And Harriet, you seem like you are particularly natural on stage and how you are. And part of your charm is being yourself. Very, very natural and self-effacing and charming. I'd still love you to do the self-love bit more, but that is part of your actual sexy vulnerability. And it sounds like you are not translating that to real life or maybe you

are but you don't realize how charming you are yes you're actually there if we could just help you you could scale it down you can work it in different ways but and i'm wondering whether you attempted to just push all the way and that doesn't give them room to roll it back oh interesting you just need to like speak less on the date then pull it back and then let them because otherwise you're so powerful how they're going to get the space they've got you're let them roll in so it's very interesting that you've said to speak less because i would say i have a huge habit for just going going going going filling filling filling filling ah basically just screaming at people I've seen you do it and it's so charming and it's so likable and lovable like it's so good but I can see that now that maybe you're not

letting them come back to you but you are kind of overpowering them with like amazingness no but in like not in a negative way at all like that that sounds wrong but like it's it there's like a lot of love coming from you like it's so like I was watching you in mode the other day and it was like it was incredible but you're right maybe you need to then sit back and let them impress you a little bit because I don't have the confidence that anything will come back so I'm just like give give, give, give, give some more. Right, it's time to go. They haven't said anything. But they're very impressed by it.

Like, they are impressed, but then you leave and they're like, what the fuck just happened? Like, that's crazy. Okay, interesting. Interesting. I would get you to be just as magnificent as you are. Pull right back. It's going to take some practice, but you've got mates.

And Harriet, I'd get you to come forward. It the opposite way around it's the opposite way around and because you're together you can be wing women harry you need to dare even if you're going to get it wrong even if saying hot isn't exactly what you meant that's just some making mistakes would be really great i say the wrong things and i do the wrong things and then people can be offended so i'm like, just back out of this. With some support, I would recommend

that you just start to give compliments. Yeah. And you come forward and you step back and you do the opposite of each other and you can help

each other do that. Be not too much this weekend. Do men deserve compliments? So that's another thing to recommend. Yes, it's hard to give them compliments. What state are you in? Are you in, you know, slightly bitter about what's happened to you state? In which case is, does that need, is there more room for that pain about what's happened to you? To like men more. Because otherwise you're putting men in one big binary category.

And as you know, you picked your husband for the reasons you did, which were all, all made sense. But it was a big, big toll on you in the way it worked out. But you probably given some help and some friendship, would pick differently. And I think that's the thing with the modern dating, is if we can get our friends or cousins or mates or whoever to read through and look at the messages and read through. Because I just believe we shouldn't do any of this stuff on our own. We should get outside support because left to our own devices we may just do a version of repeat so oh we can't do that no let's never do that absolutely can't do that but you know you won't repeat you don't have to repeat and you're amazing but you might want to watch that all men thing yeah I think so because

you did say your dad's great my dad is great yeah my dad's brilliant and you may know some other men who are great three or four my friends men they're brilliant i think maybe it's maybe it's because we're around stand-ups a lot and they're very flawed we know them very well and so we see a lot of their flaws yeah yeah and we've been burned maybe slightly. Over and over. Yeah. And we've put ourselves in those situations.

That's what I'm trying to take responsibility for putting myself in that situation. But it's hard not to feel kind of like angry. I think maybe like the treatment that you've had from people. Of course. And put up these barriers to stop it from happening again. Of course. Yeah. And that's important to give room for that anger and all those feelings. Because if you do, that's when you metabolize them and they become part of your knowledge where you start to go, you know what?

I need another person's eyes on me going towards dates. So I'm just not doing this from just my system. I've got some other people and not just one person because they might go, yeah, great person. And, but, you know, maybe a couple of people were self-regulated by other people. So it gets us regulated. So if we're going into fantasy and rumination, we want others or whatever your practices are that get you back in your body because you're out doing comedy and that's quite dysregulating. So you want stuff that helps you stay steady to date. Yeah.

This is my friend kept saying she's, I mean, she's american uh but she kept being like um you've got to ground like you'll be like this summer i just kind of maybe lost my mind a little bit in hindsight and she was like you need to ground which i think is the regulating kind of thing like i am maybe what you describe is and i've been reading about attachment styles um an anxious attachment and then you can be attracted to avoidant people and then that makes you very stressed yeah this is all normal it all makes sense we all do it it's what happens in life and it's just a natural you know with that avoidant i'm gonna heal you i see you i'm gonna bring you out of yourself and what this is why i know like you might be resistant at the moment we want you to bring you out of yourself so that you're not carrying little Harriet who wasn't brought out of herself and you're projecting it onto them and you're going

to do the work for them so if you do it for you you become more regulated and you can watch that part that wants to rescue people in dating because you're rescuing you you can stay with you more we project us out onto the world you see that's so interesting yeah i would say almost every relationship i've been in has started from look he's a mess but i'm he'll be different with me i'm really to sort him out. I'm just going to give him all of my energy and time. And I honestly believe in a year, 10 years, he's going to be fine. And I don't want to do that anymore. And you don't have to if you're doing the stuff on you and you're chatting to people.

So when you do date, you get ruminating, get worried. You go, this is normal. I'm just going to chat to my mates. Well, this is normal. this is normal and do a little dance or look in the mirror if harriet dares to and you know that this is i have to do if i'm going to date i have to do extra stuff to make sure i can manage this so i'm yeah i'm looking after me yeah because i don't have to go and look after someone in the same ways I might have done before. But then I'm going to have to up my looking after me, project me, project love, project loving me,

has to be pretty important. Another one with a fish. Okay, I've got to ask. You've brought some things with you. Maybe they're just for comfort, in which case i'm sorry to have brought them up but if they're not i'd love to know what is going on yes absolutely so another thing i work with which we are talking about is attachment theory okay and so attachment theory is the idea that all of us essentially needed the gaze of kind others to be seen, to be heard, to be met, to feel ourselves. And often through no fault of their own, our caregivers didn't give us what we needed.

So we may not have been seen. And so you may get these different attachment styles that emerge. We can all move in and out of all of them depending on the situation. But I'll just explain a little bit. So this is an octopus. These are metaphors. This is insecure attached. This is anxiously attached.

So many fingers, many pies, doing many things out there, doing it, on it. Three hearts, lives a year, very fast, hundreds of babies on it, on it, on it, on it, on it. Often what you might call an adultified child. They were adult from very young. They could see stuff from very young. babies on it on it on it on it yeah often what you might call an adultified child they were adult from very young they could see stuff from very young so they over develop from very young and there's beautiful skills they become a bit workaholic they do a lot they don't know how to pull back and maybe give to them and so what they can what can happen they can become very critical and pushy and then you know find project ships where they're going to turn

that project ship into an all-right human being because they've tried to do it with their caregivers oh yes it looks like we are looking in the mirror already amy yes so then what can happen is beautiful i love you yes there's there's also maybe the avoidantly attached or the dismissively avoidantly attached who has... I know that guy. Do you know that guy? And I know you know that guy. Yes.

So they might live 100 years, have a very strong hard shell, and they might get quite snappy. That's a snappy turtle. Right. You can see a bit grumpy face when anyone's trying to suggest they should be any different and so what you can have is these cycles where they might avoid and they might push and they might avoid and it's quite a lot of misery okay for the two but actually they there can be a more smiling turtle now the thing is the turtle is very careful because they've got this hard shell and if that gets cracked it can be over yeah so they're very careful who they're going to let in so what have what can happen is the anxious can be very pushy and they're like they just need it

to be more gentle more soft but of course when the dynamic happens the cycle happens it's difficult so then we also have this is the jellyfish this is the disorganized attached so the anxious they're kind of like doing pushing the avoidant is like maybe i don't need anyone or i just need my space and they do and they you know they may come out but they're disorganized they may have had like a caregiver with mental illness or an alcoholic caregiver where one day the alcoholic was okay and friendly and the next day they were in blackout next day they were shouting maybe there was violence there's difficult things going on so they never could trust anyone so they can actually often create quite a good like working life because they're in charge of

that but uh what they might do is drop bombs so that's like passive aggression rude things or whatever because what they're doing is they're testing people because they don't trust anyone can it be two you could be all of it we move we can yeah pass them all over we can we can move in and out of all of these styles does that make sense yeah so like it could be that you know you're more secure and with certain people and it could be like a date brings up all of this so or so I've worked with people who every time they couldn't go past a to a second date because every first date they drop such huge bombs or eat the other person's food or do rude things because of their

anxiety they were starting to do the jellyfish and just like, I am so uncomfortable. I'm going to just drop a bomb and another bomb. And I work with them strongly to help them relax, get back in their body and feel good and do some affirmations. But from their body, not just a head thing, but just kind of let. And they were able to get a second date because they got into their charming self. But given a bit too much going into their head, they were another bomb another bomb another bomb ideally we all want to be dolphins which is the secure attached oh imagine the sea you just ruined the attachment theory sorry it's so lovely

dropping a bomb oh really you just dropped the bomb here we go here we go oh god oh god it's so cute oh dear no they're named for um yeah oh my god that's so dreadful what do we do metaphorically the metaphor. It's the idea that securely attached people did get enough. It's not about the best. They got enough care and being seen and attended to. So they trust that either they can meet their needs or if somebody won't, somebody else will. So they can trust that if that date doesn't like them, another date will.

It doesn't mean it doesn't knock them, but it doesn't knock them. I'm never dating again. It's bad yeah yeah they've got enough but we can have something called earned attachment and earned attachment means that you know we can grow parts of our lives work friendship therapy creativity whatever it is that builds you can start or going and healing the parts of us that are doing redos or saying nice we can actually build a new world for ourselves and recognizing where you're at if you're feeling burnt out by a relationship that would also be earned attachment to go know what this is pretty tough for me because that's what somebody with good caregivers would have done when you're a

kid if you had a rough gig a good caregiver would have gone oh babe let's sit down with you so as you do that you're giving yourself more secure attachment and that's what we're aiming for good parent ourselves yes it's daily reparenting and bringing the adult on board and you looking after all those young parts of you or when you're in your 20s or whenever you started going and going ain't happening again we're changing all of that yeah say it with me i'm a goddess the insecurely this one can overgive in relationships and sexually and in any ways because they can't stop giving and then they can feel really resentful about all that giving. So it's again, learning how do they get steady and the avoidant may get so anxious about connecting that they start to

have sex by themselves. You know, they start to withdraw sexually. So all these spaces can get impacted. It's what we do. But as we shift like if if you both love yourselves more and go you're liking me you change the vibration of who you bring in yes and you get the next gradation and the next gradation because there's room for someone who likes you to like you yes that's fair i would say i see a lot of connections between the anxious and the avoidant it feels like that's a match that is made over and over again so for people listening who are in that dynamic what advice could you give them so one I always like to normalise things because, I mean, it is just yumminess, isn't it? When you see that sweet turtle.

The turtle is sweet. There's no denying it. Who's intellectual often. He's got very bright. Doesn't make a move. And you're that person who can step forward to that sweet turtle. And, you know, they've got their gifts. They're very bright.

They often see things from a degree don't they and all that thinking contemplating and considering it's really interesting when you're that person and you're the jumper ringing right hey i could help that person jump in don't knock it don't dismiss it you may have a type right which might be more turtley because you like you like you like the slightly intellectual avoidant type you might like them they probably like you right because it's magnetic oh my god she's so exciting and then later on it's like oh she's demanding and then initially he's so bright he's so frozen and uptight so you know it's it's magnetic the shift is what can happen in couples which which is understandable is that when it starts off like oh it's the fire but then

if you go into your dynamics which if you're this one if you're the anxious type you might start criticizing and controlling and you can't stop being preoccupied with this one and this one can't get away fast enough so you've got this horrible horrible painful dynamic if you're finding that then what would be suggested is if either one works on themselves and I work with individuals as well as couples and I'm I will work with an avoidant partner and help them come forward but it takes a lot of courage or working with the anxiously attached to own their feelings to get more support because the anxious wants to make it that one they want to make it the one the one there is no one when we make someone the one

what happens is we objectify them when we put them on a pedestal and we frighten them because everyone's completely flawed and no one can make it so they got to keep us as far away as they can if you're going to make them the one and this lovely little being the anxiously attached wants to make someone the one because they didn't get anyone growing up no one got them no one really helped them and loved them and said you are my princess and i'm gonna to love you forever. And they're looking for that one, which is why we're talking about you've got to do it. Because when this person says, I'm vulnerable, like I just want to know how you're feeling or what's going on. Do you have capacity? So always with a turtle, it'd be worth saying,

do you have capacity for a text or a chat or checking in? Because it's the space, it's not the actual conversation if we have the conversation in the right space things can open in different ways than if we just rushed it so if you're anxiously attached you're on it you're good at doing things get things done and in relationship you're like i want to know now that is going to freak this turtle out if you find ways to find the right space and time and it means a lot of waiting which means for this anxiously attached one is how do you go and soothe all those triggered parts which is like all the work to help all the triggered parts so that it can relax and just realize

waiting is good if i get articulate i'll say i feel vulnerable about this can i talk to you about that rather than you did this and you did that and you're awful and you're this and that. That's the cycle. So this takes a lot of maturing on both parts. The other part is community. This traditional avoidance will also, even though it looks like they're alone and not doing anything, they may well be relying completely on their partner for the emotional regulation and socializing of the life even though they're distancing when they go and get some community some support some groups but maybe people who can talk about this not just a friend down the pub

but actually people who can talk about it they might stop treating their partner like they're their parent when you treat each other like you're your parents, you go in with expectation and hatred, which is why, you know, committed relationships and marriages can go downhill pretty quick because we're expecting the other one to deliver a lot, which is why seeking the one is so awful. And the difference to that, you might say, well, what's the difference, Kate? And I get i get it you know it's not like i haven't grown up in this culture with all those magazines where we're all seeking the one the difference is i'm going to get to know you i'm going to get to find out you find out about you with all your flaws and all your brilliances and you can be my mate my lover my friend maybe my compatriot maybe we share various things but I want you to be you fully you and I'm not

going to try and change you but maybe we can open up vulnerable dialogues and if you're not perfect at that it's okay can we have room for mistakes uh-oh it looks like I've met a turtle again they say that often people have several relationships or many. And if you're non-monogamous, you may have many current relationships. But what they say is often the first relationship, big one, it splits by some weird mistake, right? You read a weird thing or they say something. And when we're young, you might interpret that we're splitting.

So you split. The second relationship was there may be loads of relationships but there may be another big relationship is the the one with the the dynamics where it's got pretty horrendous right and we couldn't help it we brought all the good and the bad of our upbringing and we just danced it out in a horrific way my marriage yeah but we learned we learned so much because if you've been in that you know it and you also if you can unpack it you can get to know well how did that happen how do we how did I do that and how did they do that what's my part so then you come to the next relationship

which is why you know sometimes third fourth marriages not always but sometimes have a different chance how could I come to someone differently and that opens up an entirely different space where the this person the anxiously attached you might push they'll always if you'll have a propensity for that you might be that one who goes let's do therapy let's go on a course let's let's read a book together but you might give room for mistakes with the next person and if the turtle gets room they can come back really authentically and they don't feel like they're being squashed into someone's idea of them and it can it it might be you're drawn to similar people although they may have grown more and you may have grown more but you can be in a different

spaciousness more present more loving especially if we're taking care of our younger parts and i'm not expecting them to be my parent now that parenting stuff will be there because that close person will bring up all the unconscious but if i'm being aware of that and i'm being aware of the space i'm creating from date one so i'm not overloading i'll still overload can i can i have the memory to even in the overloading go oh let me pull back or even in a text afterwards go oh look I think I may have excuse me shared a lot there and thank you for listening just because just the awareness of what you're doing whether you're too back or too forward saying it gives give space to the other one. I think that was wonderful.

That really spoke to me on a lot of levels. Really. Yeah, really helpful and moving. I wish the turtle would do a bit more work on itself sometimes. Do you know when, do you know Harriet, just if it's okay to say, when sometimes the turtle will, I work with people who are the turtle and they're doing the work and they're in a marriage and the other person's not.

So it's quite amazing. But when the anxiously attached starts to take more care of themselves and starts to speak from I statements rather than just blame and criticism and shaming, there's room, there's space. And when there's space for mistakes. So there's no often in the early stage of the anxiously attached they don't want any mistakes they won't let themselves make mistakes that's perfect yeah and they won't let that person make mistakes well that's like drowning a till it's already difficult for them to express a feeling because it was never safe growing up often they didn't have that space that was safe and they're suddenly with someone there's no room for the

mistakes so can you imagine the shift if you came either of you into a relationship where there was room for your own mistakes and someone else's mistakes to be in relationship if there was room for you with all your flaws and beauties and room for someone else with theirs and even if one of you brought that in one of you brought that kind of quality in if the other one's willing it can it can lead that maybe kate this has been incredibly helpful not to go and think about um that's so interesting it's kind of making me feel like they're anxiously attached do you know when you go food shopping and you're hungry and so you're just like i need everything now go go go go go and then you get home and you're like i didn't need any of this it, go, go, go, go. And then you get home and you're like, I didn't need any of this. It's all going to go off.

But if you can... The panic mode. Panic mode. But if you go shopping when you've eaten a nice meal and then you're picking slowly and gradually what you actually need. And so I feel like doing the work and making ourselves feel safe and good enough is like eating the meal before we go shopping. Yeah. feel safe and good enough is like eating the meal before we go shopping yeah and also if it's okay that getting that rumination or anxiety or worrying about stuff is part of life because

that's the other thing that I don't know if you both have this but it can be tempting to go that's gotta go yeah I've got to be perfectly attached now and I'm gonna do dating perfectly what if it's all right to not be perfect around dating and that sometimes you're calmer and sometimes you're not and you can eat the food and have the safe meal and what if it's all in the like what we what if we don't have to be perfect let's say I was anxiously attached um I would maybe have seen myself as right and the other person as wrong and the other person has maybe had behaviors and stuff that has made maybe the relationship on the back foot or whatever but that I have felt that I

am right and actually taking some time to think about myself and that you can be critical or go into things and I need to work on myself in those things that I think I'm being helpful and actually it's not helpful in any way and I need to work on myself in that respect you've totally got it because how we come to the space is what we is how the relationship is created so if I come to the space as I've got these wonderful ideas to improve you then it's going to be hierarchical. Yes, your life would be so much better if you just followed these three steps.

And also, I don't get to be the goddess he's looked after because I'm not allowing even the idea that they have capacity to do that if I'm busy sorting them out I mean there's there's not much chance I think also it's um rude um to think that you know what's that like if you just do these things like yeah you gotta you gotta let that go like I think yeah it's kind of rude to think that you know what's right and that's the humbling of very difficult relationship yeah how would we learn all of this so I understand like people don't want to repeat the past but part of the journey is metabolizing the amazing learning that being in difficult situations it doesn't mean I'm saying anyone should be in anything

awful not at all and people need to be taken care of, of course, and safety. But how would I learn? How would I get more humble if I haven't done all the wrong things really badly and got terrible results from all my behaviours of me thinking I'm right? Yeah, we have to learn from it. Yes. Maybe they're not always wrong. Maybe they gave signals that we couldn't hear, maybe. Yes. But they're not always wrong. Maybe they gave signals that we couldn't hear maybe. Yes. But if I pull back and slow down

what happens? Okay we need to pull back and slow down that seems to be a really Nothing will get done if we do that nothing's going to happen

if we slow down the whole ship's going to sink. It's a match in just the last minute just again just hypothetically say tonight you wanted to try and kiss someone who you're maybe meeting up with how just very quickly have you got any advice on how I might make that happen? Yes. So I think you're a natural at this.

I really do. But can you reach forward, stroke a hand, touch the face if you can? I don't know if you're going to be close enough to go near the face for a kiss, but if it's not till the end of the night, can you just be available for that kiss? Can you just think of yourself as the yummiest thing that ever existed? And tell them they look good. Because we warm charmingly. We warm to, oh, do I? Because you don't know if they feel worthy of you. And if all else fails, you can do what I do,

have done in the past, which is just lunge. Great. Just go for a lunge. Great. Just lunge in there. That's great. Harriet, you're good at this. That's so good.

It depends how many drinks I've had, but at a certain level, I can lunge. That's so good. You got this. You do it. Okay. Amazing. That's great advice.

Thank you so much. Thanks for bringing in multiple turtles. Sorry for insulting the dolphin. What can we do? So many orgasms. They're doing naughty things. What can we do? You've got to get in there and sniff them.

Wow, well, I feel like I've just learned a lot and I feel like that turtle was looking at me personally. Yeah, I sort of almost recognize that turtle. Do you know what I mean? I do know what you mean, yeah. Like Kate turned the turtle around and I was like, I know that turtle. We both know that turtle. We both know that turtle. Yeah, we've seen that turtle somewhere before.

Yeah, that was really fascinating. Really good to know about the actual tips of like trying to get into your own body, trying to just believe you're a goddess. That's going to be helpful. Flirty during the day. Like I find that really helpful. Like I really think I need to do that more rather than just like head down, keep moving, like be more open to the world.

Just apologizing constantly. Sorry I'm in your way. Yeah. Oh God. Yeah. I'm never so sorry for being here. What it is, when you're like, actually it's nice to engage with people

and people will like that and don't just be like, let's get this done as quickly as possible as we can. Just go to bed everybody. Like have experiences and engagement with the world as you're going through it and then you're more likely to meet someone and more likely to be yourself I really liked that I really liked that

and I feel I think she gave us some lovely compliments there really lovely compliments yeah yeah mind-blowing particularly for you I will say I feel like you got some great compliments. And for me, she kept saying, you're very natural. But you are. You're authentic. You're authentically you. And that's what everyone's striving to be. But could I be authentically someone else? No, Harriet, you're a goddess.

You're a goddess. You're a goddess. We're just two goddess mermaids. And Harriet, can I say, you look really hot. Amy, you look so hot, actually. Oh, my God. Oh, my God, you're a goddess. We're just two goddess mermaids. And Harriet, can I say, you look really hot. Amy, you look so hot, actually. Oh my God! Oh my God, you're so hot! I will say, I think the attachment stuff, like I actually, because look, I've been going

down TikTok rabbit holes. I'm going to admit it. And I think the thing with the avoidant, anxious attachment, everyone is like, don't do it, don't do it. And I really liked how she was like yeah obviously it can work and yeah I think it's really good to take responsibility for stuff and it's hard you know I've come out of this long-term relationship and at x like there was a lot of behavior that wasn't right but I really there was I'm starting to kind of see lots

of things that I did wrong and I want to learn from it and go forward and work on myself and not just be like oh that's the bad person thinking of like how can I do things not that we've done things wrong but like how can we do things better in some ways okay okay okay yeah yes that is totally fine but how can we do things better or differently and how I thought it was really interesting because I'm definitely an anxious attachment style and when I've been with an avoidant I do on some level think like you're doing it wrong yeah if you just met me halfway and if you just did this this and this I'd feel better but I'm not taking into consideration at all that they are also like you are freaking me out yeah and if you change how you are I'll be better it's like this mindset where like you can be a bit like victim

or whatever like oh I'm the anxious one and like you're just not doing the stuff and you're making me feel this way and actually learning to really kind of like, like yourself, understand yourself, blah, blah. Yeah. I will say in the three minutes since Kate has left, I have messaged someone and said, it turns out I'm a goddess. So you're not complimenting them, you're complimenting yourself.

Yeah, I'm going to compliment them later. Yes. But I sent a normal message and then I put, I said that in quite a sexy voice actually, because blank, it turns out I'm a goddess. Ball's in your court. And now I'm going to pull back and let him do his thing, which I imagine will be responding to something like, ha ha, very funny mate. And I cannot wait for that.

But I'm doing my bit of work. Yeah, you're doing your work, which is you naturally go out there, but then you retreat. I'm retreating. I'm retreating and I've got to come out of my hole. And you come out of your bloody hole. If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times. Get out of your own hole.

Yeah, I really enjoyed that. Thanks so much to Kate. You can go and learn things yourself in person with her. She runs flirting workshops. You can go to Kate McKenzie with a C, Kate with a C dot com. And you can find out all about her workshops there. So you can go in person. If you're a little bit of a jellyfish or an octopus or a rapist of the sea, you can go and see Kate. Hello, me again, Amy Gledhill, but this time I'm with... Not Harriet Kemsley. Whoa, WT, fuck! What's going on? I'm with bloody Ian Smith.

Offer to Northern News podcast. Yes, a podcast that's not about the news. Don't worry, single ladies. No, it's not about the news. Don't worry, single ladies. No, it's not about the news. It's not about being single. No. It's about the North, and all of our stories are about couples.

That is not the truth, Ian. No, not technically true. It's weird stuff. It's funny stuff that's going on up North that we're reporting back on. Things like... Pure evil blackbird named Derek terrorising Yorkshire village and attacking children.

Woman in tears after spotting spitting image of dead dog in bath mat. And we've got special guests. We're talking about people like Phil Wang, Jessica Knappett, Ed Gamble and Ross Noble, who joined us in the studio. Woo-hoo! Yeah! So that's Northern News, starting next Thursday, the 1st of May, and then every Thursday after that.

Join us.