Sins & Survivors: A Las Vegas True Crime Podcast - Haunted - The Rise and Fall of The Constantinos

Episode Date: October 29, 2024

Mark and Debby Constantino were an overnight success in the paranormal world. With charisma, eagerness for the job, and some excellent connections in the industry, things were happening for them quickly.But when the cameras were gone, their relationship was plagued not by the paranormal, but by domestic violence. Despite some amazing breaks, it all started crashing down for them as alcohol, ego, and public conflict started taking their toll.The toxicity between Mark and Debby wasn't new by any stretch. Friends and co-workers were well aware or at least had strong suspicions about what was going on. Mostly they just tried to ignore the public shouting and profanity. None of them could ever have imagined how tragically it would end.https://sinspod.co/episode50sourcesDomestic Violence Resourceshttp://sinspod.co/resourcesClick here to become a member of our Patreon!https://sinspod.co/patreonVisit and join our Patreon now and access our ad-free episodes and exclusive bonus content & schwag! Get ad-free access for only $1 a month or ad-free and bonus episodes for $3 a monthApple Podcast Subscriptionshttps://sinspod.co/appleWe're now offering premium membership benefits on Apple Podcast Subscriptions! On your mobile deviceLet us know what you think about the episodehttps://www.buzzsprout.com/twilio/text_messages/2248640/open_sms Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/sins-survivors-a-las-vegas-true-crime-podcast--6173686/support.

To listen ad-free, visit Zinspod.co slash subscribe. Starting at $2.99 a month, you'll also get access to our exclusive bonus content episodes when you join through Patreon or Apple subscriptions. Thanks for supporting the show! Mark and Debbie Constantino were an overnight success in the paranormal world. With a combination of charisma, eagerness for the job, and some excellent connections in the industry, things were happening for them quickly. But when the cameras were gone, their relationship was plagued not by the paranormal, but by domestic violence. Despite some amazing breaks, it all

started crashing down for them as alcohol, ego, and public conflict started taking their toll. The toxicity between Mark and Debbie wasn't new by any stretch. Friends and co-workers were well aware, or at least had strong suspicions about what was going on. Mostly, they tried to ignore the public shouting and profanity. None of them could ever have imagined how tragically it went in. Hi, and welcome to Sins and Survivors, a Las Vegas true crime podcast where we focus on cases that deal with domestic violence, as well as missing persons and unsolved cases. I'm your host, Sean. And with me, as always, is the one and only John. I am the only John in the room.

Well, it's spooky season and Domestic Violence Awareness Month. And for our last regular episode of October, we're diving into the tragic story of Debbie Constantino and her husband, Mark Constantino. They were both known for their work in the paranormal community, particularly for their appearances on Ghost Adventures. We are honored to welcome a very special guest, Sherry Ryan from the Alleged Actually podcast. Sherry reached out to us to team up and collaborate so we could cover the case we are discussing today, and I'm so grateful she did. Sherry, will you introduce yourself and tell us why you wanted to cover Debbie and Mark Constantino?

Yes. Thank you so much, Sean and the one and only John. I'm Sherry Ryan, the host of the Alleged Actually podcast, where we dive into reality show recaps and pop culture discussions. I'm also a big true crime enthusiast, so I really admire what you guys do on Sins and Survivors, especially your focus on raising awareness about domestic violence. I came across the story of Debbie and Mark Constantino in one of my reality TV fan groups, and I was immediately drawn to it. Their tale is both compelling and tragic, featuring a charismatic couple who were deeply involved in ghost hunting. The show Ghost Adventures has a massive following, and the Constantinos appeared in several popular episodes that fans loved.

It seems from the feedback that the fans were left with so many unanswered questions after the death of the couple. I thought it would be amazing to collaborate with you both as the worlds of reality TV and true crime oftentimes do collide. So here we are. We are so glad you're with us. So Sean has been discussing doing a collaboration like this for a while now. Her thought was that we could find a podcast with an entirely different focus than ours, and then find some topic where there was some overlap, so this was perfect. This tragic case is an example of a very toxic relationship that ended in tragedy, and has many of the elements that we cover, but it also touches on an aspect of the reality TV world, ghost hunting. At least in my mind, ghost hunting is at least

reality TV adjacent. There are a ton of these types of shows, but Zach Bagans' Ghost Adventures is one of the originals, having run for 16 seasons so far starting in 2004 when we lived in essentially a different world. Also, this is a two-part episode because Sherry set up an interview with Janice Oberding, who literally wrote the book about the Constantinos. The book is called Demon Song. She is the one who taught them the EVP techniques that they used on the show and was close with them early on in their careers. We were lucky enough to join in on that interview with Janice, and her interview also drops today on the Alleged Actually podcast. Once you get through here, make sure you go listen to that interview. Janice has some never-before- heard insights on Debbie and Mark that you do not want to miss.

It was fascinating talking to Janice. Thank you so much for asking us to collaborate on this episode. We'll have more about the interview later in this episode, but for now, I'll get us started by talking about Debbie. She was born on October 17th, 1962 in New Jersey. According to Janice, she grew up across the street from a graveyard, which spurred her interest in ghosts and the supernatural, even going so far as to claim that she grew up in a haunted house. Debbie has said that when she was 14 years old, she told her mom she wanted to visit the site of the Amityville Horror on Long Island, about an hour away from where she lived in New Jersey. Six members of a family were found dead there in 1974, and the event spawned quite a few movies

and grew to legendary status in the paranormal world, with the assumption being that the house was haunted. Mark and Debbie were married in 1989 and have two adult daughters, Raquel and Alyssa. One thing to note, Debbie gave birth to twin girls in 1991. One of the girls, Sienna, died at just six months old. There's a lot of speculation online about what caused Mark and Debbie to get interested in the paranormal industry, but it seems true that it was at least partly due to the loss of Sienna. They seem to want to learn more about the possibility of life after death and whether or not you can communicate with loved ones who have passed on. I'm not sure which of their daughters, Raquel or Alyssa, is the surviving twin. They also both had the desire to become wealthy and famous, and with the rise of the

popularity of the paranormal, they definitely saw an opportunity. Mark was also from New Jersey and was born on January 30th, 1962. Debbie believed she possessed some special gifts that allowed her to sense and communicate with spirits. But Mark was equally invested in learning about paranormal investigation techniques. Mark and Debbie moved to northern Nevada near Reno in 2000. And in 2004, he took a class on ghost hunting and spirituality at Truckee Meadows Community College, taught by Janice Oberding. Mark and one of his daughters attended that class without Debbie.

They asked to record the class for her, explaining that she was interested but just couldn't make it, and they wanted to share everything they learned with her. Janice said that stood out to her, so when the two later attended a retreat she hosted in Virginia City, Nevada, Janice remembered them. When talking about Mark and Debbie, she definitely saw a difference. She said that Debbie was more knowledgeable about paranormal investigating techniques, but that Mark was enthusiastic about learning. And as we have said, and I will repeat, Mark was also very interested in fame and fortune, so it's not clear if he was interested in the industry to the level that Debbie was. She also said that as she got to know the couple, she thought that Debbie really had a personality that people would be interested in watching,

and that as a couple, she thought they would do well. Their back-and-forth bickering was entertaining, like a married couple on a sitcom. They used simple terms that seemed approachable and were very likable. She said that Debbie could be extremely charming when she chose to turn it on. And she also noted that when Debbie met important people in the industry, she always turned on that charm and that really helped them succeed. Mark and Debbie worked to become experts in EVP, electronic voice phenomenon. This is a technique where you use a special kind of recorder that captures multiple frequencies. Ghost hunters and paranormal investigators will use EVP recorders

to capture voices and sounds, which they claim to be messages from ghosts or spirits. Sherry, I know you watched more episodes of Ghost Adventures than I did. What would you add about EVP? Well, EVP is a common feature in ghost hunting reality shows, and Debbie and Mark Constantino quickly gained a reputation as experts in this field. Janice recognized their star quality and began introducing them to notable figures in the paranormal TV world, including Zach Baggins. It didn't take long for Zach to realize that the Constantinos brought something unique to the table. Debbie in particular had a remarkable talent for engaging with spirits, often prompting Mark to say, the ghosts like her,

they want to talk to her, and talk they did. Several memorable episodes of Ghost Adventures featured the Constantinos showcasing significant EVP captures. One standout episode titled Queen Mary highlighted Debbie's ability to communicate with a ghost named Jackie, believed to be the spirit of a little girl haunting the once luxurious ship. This location is now recognized as one of the most haunted places on earth. It's funny you mentioned the Queen Mary. john and i have always been interested in that ship which is permanently docked in long beach california we were actually there just a few days ago they have a haunted house event where ghost figures from the ship's past haunt mazes on the ship like the ghost of jackie and it's a bit of a carnival atmosphere we've stayed on the ship a

hotel again but this time it was haunted by scary taxes and fees, so we just stayed in an Airbnb. Many people who live in Las Vegas or have visited here know about Zach Bagans. His haunted museum is in downtown Vegas near the Arts District, and we have visited it. It was pretty interesting, and some of the things there are actually pretty disturbing. And to be clear, I'm a skeptic, so I went into the haunted museum with that mindset, but I found it really interesting how many people seem to really believe in ghosts, demons, and hauntings. For example, they have what they claim is a haunted mirror, and to make it extra scary, they didn't allow anyone under 18 to look into the mirror because reasons. Adults were allowed to look at this terrifying

item, and as I gazed into its depths, I came away only having seen the one and only John, and as far as I'm aware, I wasn't possessed by demons or whatever. I was a little disappointed. I was hoping that I'd see hands trying to push through the glass or something, but maybe the demons just avoid a science guy like myself. When we were researching the case, it was kind of fun to see several places that Sean and I have visited on these haunted Nevada lists, like Goldfield or the Clown Motel in Tonopah. And if you don't know about the Clown Motel in Tonopah, you need to Google that as soon as you can. It's exactly what the name implies, and it did not disappoint. It's even built next to a spooky old graveyard filled with Nevada

residents who were killed in a mine fire in the early 1900s. Sadly, we didn't see any ghosts then, but the hotel is really fun and creepy, or maybe terrifying depending on how you feel about clowns. Janice thought that Debbie and Mark had the potential to achieve para-celeb status. That's a celebrity in the paranormal field, like Zach Bagans. So as you mentioned, Sherry, she introduced them to Zach when they asked her to, along with other para-celebs. Janice was right, and their down-to-earth nature

and charming public personalities got them noticed, and before long, they were being asked along on ghost-hunting investigations, including being featured on Ghost Adventures with Zach. Janice also noticed, and I guess it might have been a little difficult investigations, including being featured on Ghost Adventures with Zach. Janice also noticed, and I guess it might have been a little difficult not to notice, that Debbie was incredibly jealous. She was suspicious of any women being around Mark. Janice wrote in her book that Debbie had told her that Janice was the only woman she could trust to be around Mark. It wasn't only women that

Debbie was jealous of, though. Janice recounted a story of a night where they met a well-known person in the paranormal world for dinner. He was much more interested in talking to Mark for whatever reason, and Debbie told Janice that she thought, without any evidence at all, that he was gay and was after Mark. Later that night, Debbie blew up at Mark when she caught him talking to two women about horoscopes after he told them his birthday. It was one of the first examples Janice saw of them having a public fight based on jealousy, and she pointed out to them that it wasn't a good look for people in the public eye. This started happening a lot and in front of other people about Mark paying too much attention to women that Debbie thought were getting too close to her husband. The stories that Janice included in her book, the way Debbie would curse

at Mark or call the women sluts or bitches, it was really intense. This was the toxic part of their relationship that was on display for everyone to see. It was this toxic behavior that would ultimately start to impact the relationships that Debbie and Mark relied so heavily on in the paranormal community. One incident in particular was also mentioned in the book Demon Song. With the grumbling about their fighting and rumors of domestic violence becoming more widely known, they found themselves cut out of participating in events that they once were sought after for. Nick Groff had a Virginia City event in 2015 that Debbie in particular was so excited to be a part of. Debbie reached out to Groff to see if she could possibly do the event on her own because at this point their marriage

was falling apart. Groff feared that the drama that came with the couple would ruin its popular and lucrative event. So he cut them from the lineup altogether. Debbie was crushed. When we started researching Debbie and Mark, we assumed we'd be able to just turn on Hulu and see them in some of the old episodes so we could learn more about their relationship and what they did on the show and see their dynamic in action. But it turns out that these episodes are no longer available on streaming. I looked it up and I guess Zach and the producers decided that it would be best to just remove these episodes in their entirety. We did try to find some clips on YouTube, and we did see some, but it's surprising that you can't find any of their episodes on streaming anymore.

Sherry, what did you think about that? Yeah, I was honestly surprised by that. I know that after the tragedy, Zach naturally had a really hard time. Though he was friends with both of them, when the marriage began to fall apart, he sided with Debbie. In light of the tragic way the couple died, Zach and producers made the call to remove the episodes. It's not uncommon, though. VH1 had a popular reality show called I Love Money. The season three winner, Ryan Jenkins, murdered his wife, model Jasmine Fiore, in August 2009. It was a very gruesome and tragic end for her at just 28 years old. When he was officially charged with the murder, days later, he was found deceased of an

apparent suicide. VH1 not only chose to not air season three, but ultimately canceled the show after that. So yeah, it definitely happens. I remember that case. It was horrible. So the Constantinos were in the paranormal reality TV world and getting more and more popular. Janice told stories of several investigations they went on together, including a very popular location a few hours north of Las Vegas called Goldfield. Goldfield was at one point the largest city in Nevada due to the discovery of, as you might have guessed, gold in 1903. It experienced a huge population and economic boom from 1903 to about the mid-1920s, when the production of gold started decreasing, and now there are just over 200 people who live there. The Goldfield Hotel is known in the paranormal world as an actively haunted place, and the Constantinos visited there with Janice

on an investigation in 2013, before they really had their surge in popularity. Janice recounted this investigation in Demon Song, and described that as they were investigating, Debbie recorded some EVP which was actually Janice's voice. She was talking during the recording and obviously the recorder picked up her voice, but Mark and Debbie somehow convinced themselves that the voices they heard were spirits, not Janice. Janice told them it was a corrupted EVP and they should just get rid of it and definitely not use it. But instead, they essentially used that recording to propel themselves to para-celeb stardom. Their friendship just wasn't the same after that,

and shortly after, they were no longer friends or even speaking. We mentioned earlier about the intense jealousy and constant fighting that the people around the Constantinos had noticed. There were also many criminal acts of domestic violence that occurred over the years. The police had been to the Constantino home many times, and both Mark and Debbie had been arrested. Janice included in her book that the couple had, at different times, received temporary protection orders against each other. One source reported that the police had been to Debbie and Mark's home 10 times between 2012 and 2015. Alcohol seemed to be a factor in many of these arguments, and some of the fights even involved one of their adult daughters. In 2012, Debbie

was arrested for shoving Mark when she was trying to throw their daughter out of the house. In June of 2012, Mark and Debbie were the highlight of an event being held at the Washoe Club. Tickets were sold for $99 each and guests would be able to do some paranormal investigating with the couple. However, on the night of the event, Debbie drank heavily. According to Janice, she did so many shots that she was so intoxicated that she could barely stand. We don't know exactly what upset Debbie, but she went on a tirade against Mark, swearing at him and even calling him a mother effer. Some of the guests at the event asked for their money back because not only were the two of them arguing, but Debbie was so inebriated that she

was stumbling her way through the EVP session. It sounds like the whole event was just a complete disaster. Mark and Debbie's colleagues and fans were well aware of their fighting, and it was starting to affect their careers. Dave Schrader, another well-known paranormal investigator, paid them to attend an event at the Stanley Hotel. Many of you may know the Stanley Hotel as the location where the movie The Shining was filmed. Debbie and Mark had one of their huge fights, and Mark was so angry he walked out and flew home to Reno before their scheduled appearance. Dave Schrader warned them that their careers would not last if they kept up this behavior. Both their marriage and their

careers were starting to fall apart. It's also likely, but it's not exactly clear, that Mark was dealing with some serious health issues at that time. Janice wrote in Demon Song that he was looking much older and paler. Debbie and Mark had told people that he was unable to work his regular job due to a leg injury, and that he had been collecting disability. In one of the TPO applications against Debbie, he claimed he had gone through chemotherapy. It's been alleged that the Constantinos may have been using drugs, although we absolutely can't corroborate that, and they were definitely having money issues. In March of 2015, in a serious fight about money, Debbie

slashed Mark's arm with a knife. Debbie was arrested and Mark again applied for a TPO, but he rescinded it the very next day. One of the most serious allegations of domestic violence happened on August 8, 2015, and involved one of their daughters, Raquel. As Sherry said, their relationship had completely fallen apart by that point, with Debbie having moved out of their home on Daybreak Drive in Sparks and moving in with two roommates in a rental house on Escalera Way in Reno. Summer Myers was younger than she was, and James Anderson was a little bit older. On this day in August, Mark lied to Debbie. He seemingly lured her back to the house by calling her and telling her that their dog had escaped from their yard.

Debbie was worried about what had happened to her dog, who was probably lost and terrified. Debbie and Summer drove over to the house where Mark and their 23-year-old daughter were waiting. According to Debbie, Mark and Raquel grabbed Debbie and Summer and started hitting and beating them. Mark dragged Debbie from the car and into the house. He continued to beat her and even strangled her until she passed out. He threatened to slit her throat with a knife. The assault went on for an hour before the police arrived. In Demon's Song, Janice quotes Debbie saying, I would have died that night if it wasn't for the police. Both Mark and their daughter Raquel were arrested on charges of first-degree burglary, first-degree domestic battery, and kidnapping in the second degree for their assault of Debbie and Summer. This fact of

the case is upsetting. Janice writes in her book that Mark and Raquel were released on bail. These charges were serious, and I think Mark would have gone to prison had this case ever made it to trial. I know you both tried to look into the case records for the Constantinos. Did you find anything related to why the judge granted them bail? No, unfortunately, we don't have access to that information, but Sean and I kind of run into that a lot. It seems pretty apparent in hindsight, but things were definitely spiraling out of control here. We've talked before on the show about risk factors and aggravating factors such as alcohol abuse, unemployment, and their loss of self or identity that can lead to

murder and suicide. It feels like every week we say how the most dangerous time for a victim is when they try to leave, and here we are again with another example of that. Rebecca Evans, life coach and spiritual guide for Deborah Constantino, compared the situation to the frog in a pot analogy. It was a slow build-up, and I don't think in the beginning of their relationship they had those kind of problems. The years rolled on, and she said the domestic issues progressed, and I was really scared for her. Debbie filed for divorce in September of 2015, and she was very direct and harsh in her description of their relationship and all of her demands. She claimed that Mark controlled

all of their finances and that he had bled their accounts dry. She also wanted full ownership of their paranormal business, saying that she had started the business and Mark was just along for the ride. Early on the morning of September 22nd, around 6.15am, Summer was dropped off by her boyfriend at the home she shared with Debbie and James. In the interview she had with Janice, she noted that she thought it was strange that the garage door was open because Debbie took her privacy and security seriously. Summer went into the house and made a horrible discovery. Their other roommate, Jimmy, had been murdered. He was lying in the hallway, having been shot in the head. She and her boyfriend looked for Debbie, but she wasn't there. They had no idea where she might be, and of course, they called the Reno police immediately,

and Summer told them without hesitation, Mark Constantino did this. As we mentioned, Reno police were all too familiar with the name Constantino, between the mutual restraining orders, the recent wild kidnapping incident, and countless domestic violence incidents, so it seemed reasonable for them to think that this might be another incident of Mark Constantino kidnapping Debbie. Police attempted to locate Debbie using her cell phone, and it will come as little surprise that they located it and her in their daughter Raquel's apartment in Sparks. They headed over and officers knocked on the door and heard gunshots, according to the deputy chief of police in Reno.

It was Mark, and he shouted at them through the door an ominous, give me 15 minutes to gather my thoughts or I'll kill her. Police called in the SWAT and spent the next two hours negotiating with Mark to release Debbie. At 1.15, they stopped hearing from him, and then shortly after, heard a single gunshot. They breached the door with explosives and found Mark and Debbie dead. Mark had shot her twice in the head, and then shot himself. Many of the news accounts of the murder of jimmy anderson seemed to gloss over his tragic murder summer's boyfriend spoke to ktvn channel 2 in reno and wanted people to remember jimmy for the kind

person he was he offered debbie a place to stay when she had no other options even knowing about the couple's violent history of domestic violence he was a generous person who was always thinking of others he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and he paid for his kindness with his life. This stood out to me. According to Janice, three days after their deaths, one of their daughters posted on Facebook that while her father was in heaven watching over her, her mother was burning in hell where she belonged. This was a chilling quote. Imagine feeling that way about your mother. In some of my research, it was stated that the girls were privy to the fights and to Debbie's violent outbursts. There was an instance that was mentioned in an article by a family friend, not Janice, that Debbie, while drunk, got into a fight with Raquel

and tried to kick her out the house when she was a teenager. Apparently, they also had a toxic relationship. It was also mentioned that Debbie didn't have much of a relationship with her own mother. Sometimes those cycles repeat. We also want to take a moment to note that in 2016, their daughter, Raquel, pled guilty to the charge of battery against Summer, a misdemeanor. The remaining charges, including the felony burglary, were dropped. She received a suspended sentence of 175 days and was directed to undergo anger management and treatment for alcohol abuse. Summer had received a black eye during the assault, and according to court records, she needed to undergo therapy both because of the attack, but also because of Debbie's murder. However, the court did not order Raquel to pay any restitution

to Summer. During the sentencing, Raquel's defense attorney said, Ms. Constantino has had since that time perhaps the most horrific situation that could happen to someone. The final thing we want to talk about is how the paranormal community dealt with Debbie's murder. Janice shared with us in the interview that after their deaths, people divided themselves into two camps, the side that saw Debbie as a victim of domestic violence with Mark as the abusive aggressor, and the other side that saw Debbie as being equally aggressive and Mark being pushed to the edge, and even some thinking he was possessed by demons and not acting under his own free will. We took a look at what their fans have said in comment threads and on Reddit, and to be honest, what they were saying were common things we see all the time with domestic violence cases.

There's some victim blaming and a ton of denial and disbelief. These events are so startling and horrifying that we struggle to accept that an average human would commit them. There were 16 murder-suicides in Nevada in 2023, and it's never literal demonic possession. It's probably closer to what Janice said, that we all have our figurative demons to battle. And Sherry, I'm interested in getting your opinion on this. In 2020, Zach Baggins went back to the Washoe Club

and tried to make contact with Mark and Debbie. The event was documented on an episode of Ghost Adventures called The Screaming Room, five years after Debbie was killed. During this episode, the crew specifically called out to Debbie and Mark, and Zach shared that it wasn't fair that Debbie was taken, and that he's still really angry at Mark, which is understandable. What can you tell us about this episode, and do you think this is something expected in the world of reality TV? Yeah, there are mixed thoughts on that episode. Most fans were looking for it and expected Zach and crew to try to contact them,

or many of them solely wanted him to contact Debbie, since most fans see Mark as a monster. Some think that Zach was using it for ratings, but let's be clear. This is what they do. They try to contact Ghost, and it wasn't surprising to me that they would dedicate an episode to trying to contact the couple. Zach really had a hard time with this episode though. You have to tune into the interview to hear Janice's account of how Zach was feeling. I don't want to give it away, but she talks about their conversation about that. Listen, reality TV can be exploitive at times. Paranormal reality TV in particular goes for the shock factor. It speaks to those that share that interest in all things paranormal and it reaches those that have always

been curious about ghosts, hauntings, and the idea of being able to speak to those that have crossed over. The thing is, a lot of time, reality TV isn't real. I mean, it is, but it's heavily produced. Scenes are set up, folks are coached to do this or say that, but in this instance, it was very real. The Constantinos were real people that had real issues, and despite how great they were for TV, it did not absolve them from the ugliness of domestic violence, nor did it prevent the tragic way that their lives ended. I love the way you said that, Sherry. Thank you.

That's awesome. Tara Boren-Lorensen wrote the foreword for Janice's book, Demon Song, and I really connected with this quote from her. Mark and Debbie lived in a cycle of domestic violence. This is not a tale of demonic possession. It's a glimpse behind the curtain and into the private space of two people. It's a story about relationships that break and how silent and vicious domestic violence can be. Sometimes the demons that haunt us are of our own making. Sherry, thank you again so much for collaborating with us on this. As a reminder, head over to the Alleged Actually podcast to hear the full interview with Janice Oberding. Janice not only shared

information about Debbie and Mark, but also included some stories about her adventures in paranormal investigating. So fans of both true crime and paranormal should definitely check it out. Sherry, can you remind everybody where they can find your podcast and where they can find you on all the socials? Absolutely. You can find the Legend Actually podcast on YouTube for all things reality TV, pop culture, and some amazing interviews. Also, follow us on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, and ex-formally Twitter. It's been such a pleasure working with you both. Thank you so much for

the amazing collab opportunity. Thank you again, Sherry, and thank you all for listening. A reminder that if you or someone you care about is experiencing domestic violence, that we have a list of resources available on our website. Also, for anyone experiencing a mental health crisis, feelings of hopelessness, or any kind of mental stress, you can call 988 and speak to someone who can offer support and resources. It's not your fault and you are not alone. Until next time, remember what happens here happens everywhere. Thanks for listening. Visit sinspod.co slash subscribe for exclusive bonus content and to listen ad-free. Remember to like and follow us

on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and Threads at Sins and Survivors. If you're enjoying the podcast, please leave us a review on your podcast platform of choice. You can contact us at questions at sinsandsurvivors.com. If you or someone you know is affected by domestic violence or needs support, please reach out to local resources or the National Domestic Violence Hotline. A list of resources is available on our website, sinsandsurvivors.com. Sins and Survivors, a Las Vegas true crime podcast, is research written and produced by your hosts, Sean and John. The information shared in this podcast is accurate at the time of recording.

If you have questions, concerns, or corrections, please email us. Links to source material for this episode can be found on our website, sinsandsurvivors.com. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the podcast creators, hosts, and their guests. All individuals are innocent until proven guilty. This content does not constitute legal advice. Listeners are encouraged to consult with legal professionals for guidance.