Sins & Survivors: A Las Vegas True Crime Podcast - Maureen Kelly’s Spiritual Quest: Vanished in Gifford Pinchot (PNW Haunts & Homicides)

Episode Date: July 15, 2025

Today in place of our standard Swing Shift episode, we're bringing you a missing person, also from PNW Haunts & Homicides. Our policy is never to have a missing person be anything other than free, in the spirit of raising the profile of these important cases and in the hope that people like Maureen will be found.Here are their show notes. Please pay them a visit at https://sinspod.co/pnwWe remind you that we always have resources for those experiencing domestic violence listed on our website at https://sinspod.co/resourceshttps://sinspod.co/87bonushttps://sinspod.co/87bonusblog---In June 2013, 19-year-old Maureen Leianuhea “Anu” Kelly set off on a camping trip with friends in the vast and unspoiled wilderness Gifford Pinchot National Forest. The backdrop was both scenic and rugged. What was supposed to be a carefree adventure outdoors turned into a chilling mystery when Anu walked away from their campsite—completely nude, save for her fanny pack—and never returned.Despite extensive search efforts, the only trace of her was a set of footprints leading toward a road. Her extremely limited supplies, tucked into the fanny pack she’d donned, would do little to stave off any number of threats she may have encountered in the woods. Over the years, theories have swirled - while she may have been seeking a spiritual awakening, her whereabouts have remained unknown since that fateful night. Did she fall victim to the harsh wilderness? Or is it possible that something far more sinister happened that night?Join us as we retrace Anu’s final known steps, explore the many theories surrounding her mysterious disappearance, and discuss the latest developments, including the discovery of human remains in the Big Lava Bed located in the Gifford Pinchot National Forest in August of 2024. Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/sins-survivors-a-las-vegas-true-crime-podcast--6173686/support.

To listen ad free visit sins pod co slash subscribe starting at 299 a month You'll also get access to our exclusive bonus content episodes when you join through patreon or Apple subscriptions. Thanks for supporting the show Hey everyone welcome to this week's swing shift episode of sins and survivors This week we brought you an episode from one of the podcasts we admire a show that shares our values of thoughtful respectful Storytelling and shines a light on stories that deserve to be heard. On today's Swing Shift, we have another episode from PNW Haunts and Homicides, hosted by the great Caitlin and Cassie, who do an amazing job covering true crime with the Pacific Northwest twist. They're smart, funny, compassionate, and always do their homework. The case you're about to hear is about a young woman named

Maureen Kelly or Anu to those who loved her. She went into the Gifford Pinchot National Forest in Washington for what she called a spiritual journey and never came back. It's a case that leaves behind a lot of questions and even more heartbreak. Cassie and Caitlin walk through it with care, context, and some truly thoughtful insights

into how we talk about missing person cases, especially when the internet gets involved. If you like what you hear, make sure to check out their other episodes and give them a follow. Next week we'll be back with another original episode and a bonus episode, but for now we hope you enjoy this one. Our story today is all about the fun and occasional folly of youth. On June 9th, all of the accounts I've read say the group was simply enjoying themselves as the afternoon began to fade into evening. The group proceeded to enjoy their surroundings, no doubt unaware that by morning they would reach a horrifying realization.

One of them was missing. Okay, yes, Caitlin, I have received the nudes that you sent me. Oh boy, are you going to be disappointed. I mean, these are beautiful. Not quite that beautiful. Never that beautiful. No. Oh my goodness. Oh man.

Yeah. I was waiting until you hit record to say that. So we can start now. Hi Cassie. Hi Caitlin. Hi creepy people. Hello. Hello.

This is PNW, Haunts and Homicides, where we chat about true crime, the paranormal, spooky things, witchy things, kind of whatever we're feeling. We really hone in on the paranormal and the true crime though. That's kind of our, that's our safe space, which I think says a lot about our mental health. Right. And where is our safe space? It's in the Pacific Northwest. The PNW. If you're nasty. Yes. And I am nasty

because I'm drinking a Kerslite today. Kerslite. That's like a very Midwest thing to say. Kerslite. What else do we do? Oh, I forgot. We do tarot reading at the end of every episode for a little deeper insight into our topic.

Cassie, have you ever visited the Gifford Pinchot National Forest in Washington? No, and it doesn't even sound familiar to me. Wow. Okay. You may recall, I just sent you some photos. So I'm going to show you some pictures so you can see just how beautiful it is. Caitlin, those are huge! Ha ha.

Ha ha ha ha. Whoa! But they are! Yeah? Yeah, this is really pretty. Are these from your personal camera roll? Uh, these ones are not. Oh, okay. They look like they could be. Yes. And I was very fortunate to stumble upon some Pacific Northwest kind of camping blogs

that they had photos. Actually, the one with the waterfall. Yeah, that's so sweet. one with the waterfall. I have a nearly identical photo in my camera roll of a different place in Washington. Yeah, I feel like these waterfalls are, I mean, I don't know, maybe they're typical waterfalls everywhere, but I feel like these are like super PNW waterfalls. I think so as well. Just like the multiple points of, I don't know what you call, I don't know how to describe this, but like the multiple points of foliage in the fall itself.

Because there's so many layers of rocks and things, and green moss, and then the water looks like greeny blue, like a lagoon. It's very pretty. It's very pretty. And then is this like Mount St. Helens with the top blown off? Might be. Is that the one that blew up?

It sure is. Then that's, I think that's the only one that doesn't have like a point, I think. I don't know, I could be sure. And it actually, I believe that geographically checks out. So, yeah. Well, cool. Yeah. Yeah, as you'll find out later, I was prepared for questions, but only in relation to historical weather data.

Ah, yes. I'm waiting for this. Yeah. I read a comment and I went, hmm, that seems to directly contradict something else I read about the weather. I should probably hyper-focus on that for 30 minutes. I mean, I probably would too. Yeah, it turns out it wasn't unimportant to the story, so. Hmm, okay. So do you have any idea how difficult it can be, depending on location, to find historical weather data dating back to 2013?

No, I feel like Google should just know, right? Yeah, Google doesn't fucking know. Google AI, come on, answer. Can you answer all my other questions? Yeah, Google AI was like, well, here's what I would do. And I was like, I would have already done that. I thought you would give me the answer. I'm getting a little hung up on that. That's fine.

We have a lot of ground to cover. So when I look at the falls, you see in a lot of the pictures of this area, especially now that we're getting closer to spring, I think about that hilariously heartwarming prank that you and Chris pulled on me almost two years ago now. Oh, yeah! Yeah! Remember that? Okay, TLDR for anyone who doesn't know that backstory.

I was told by Cassie and my now husband Chris that we were going to take some photos of the two of us for the pod. And also for one of Cassie's episodes. She's a lying skank. I was not wrong because we actually did an episode about the place. So we actually did need to go there. What actually happened was that Chris proposed whilst I was clearly confused and also scolding him for getting brand new pants dirty.

It's gonna stain! Yeah. In many respects, one of the happiest, and also maybe in some respects, not my proudest moment. Um, I also made some of the most bizarrely dazed faces, I think, humanly possible. Yes, can confirm. If you want to listen to that episode where Cassie tried to convince me how creepy Silver Falls was, you can go back and listen to the episode. We'll tag that in the show notes.

Hopefully. Hopefully we do that. It did drop on April 1st of whatever that year was. Yes. Yeah, it was indeed our April Fools episode. Kind of a tough act to follow, I feel like. was. Yes. Yeah, it was indeed our April Fools episode. Kind of a tough act to follow, I feel like. Yeah, right? Yeah. We'll see what happens this year.

Maybe we'll get spicy on you. Maybe we'll keep you guessing. Who knows? Or maybe we'll disagree that April Fools is a stupid holiday and it's not for adults. I do have more pictures for you. So hopefully the first one in this progression of photos that I've sent you is mostly my wrist. Yes, I noticed. Okay. So the first one looks like it was taken by a boomer.

It's sort of the photo equivalent of a butt dial, but I can assure you that it was taken actually by me, not a boomer, famously, in the befuddled excitement moments after your hilarious prank. Aww. And then the other ones are slightly more presentable, cute photos of us at the falls. With our mouths open. Oh, of course. For Chris. Chris is just being normal, smiling normal.

Just being a person, just being a person, peopling. Yeah. Aww. That was a fun day peopling. Yeah. Aww. That was a fun day. It was. Whenever I see waterfalls, you know what I'm thinking of. TLC?

Also that, of course. Naturally. But let's get back on track. If you were, say, 19 years old, what do you think a place like Gifford-Pinchot National Forest represents to you? Any thoughts? I don't know, like a nice place to hike.

Yeah, I feel like that's a solid guess. That's what I was looking for. Obviously, you've got the gorgeous waterfalls and I already had my monologue about that. Maybe a little freedom, enjoying the natural world, camping with friends, toasting marshmallows and maybe some drinks by the fire. Alleged drinks. That all tracks though, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally.

I was like thinking back to what I was doing at that age, outdoorsy, and it was like hiking a little, but mostly like camping and drinking and yeah. Yeah, yeah. Pretty normal stuff, I think, at that age. Our story today is all about the fun and occasional folly of youth. As happy as I am now with everything that I've built with both of my partners in crime, both in business and in my personal life,

me? Every once in a while, I think everyone wishes that they could turn back the clock and experience things the same way they did when they were younger. I mean, for me, number one, my metabolism. And I could really go for taking another summer off. Yeah, seriously. Would not hurt my feelings at all. Maureen Anu Kelly was born September 26, 1993, to a single mother who raised her in Washington State. Sources actually kind of seem to differ on where exactly she grew up. Some say the Vancouver area, others Spokane. But ultimately our story happens in a completely different location anyway.

Though she was a graduate of Lewis and Clark High School, notably located in Spokane. Not Spokane. Never Spokane. Fun fact, Anu was a Libra. And I share that because from what I have seen and read, it seems like kind of a fun detail that she might have actually shared about herself. Oh, I like that. She had sort of like a fun, kind of creative, I don't know.

I mean, I feel like hippie sort of becomes like a catchall term for sort of a vibe. Yeah. But I feel like Libras also have like an energy and we all have like Libra energy too, because I'm a Libra moon and you're like a Libra rising or something. And yeah, yeah. I mean, Chris is Libra. Is a Libra rising or something. Yeah, yeah. I get, yes. I mean, Chris is Libra, so. Is a Libra. Yeah. It's a Libra vibe.

We got a lot of Libra energy up in here. Yeah, makes sense, I think. It does. Back in 2013, Anu had a YouTube channel where she posted videos playing her uke, aww, ukelele for the uninitiated, and beatboxing. That's so cool! Generally just being a carefree young adult.

She had 302 subscribers there. I'm going to speculate that some of those subscribers are more recent. Oh, and also, I'd love to use this as an opening to transition into an arguably shameless plug, believe me. But as I listened to her saying as she played her you, I read the comments. I'm not going to read from the comments section until I provide a little bit more context, but suffice to say, I was starting to come down with a case of the ick. Oh no. I don't like that. I know. Well, go on the internet and you know, as one does, That's why I try to stay off the internet. Yeah

Okay, so do me a favor if you can only do one thing just this one time Don't worry about any of the usual calls to action that on this podcast and other fellow podcasters You know the things that we're always, smash that subscribe button and shit like that. Instead, go to her YouTube channel, because this is a face that not enough people have seen. This is clearly an incredibly kind and creative young woman with a beautiful voice to boot. She was just like anyone would be at 19,

beautiful, intrepid, a young woman with so much promise. According to her half-sister Sherry Kopu, she had called just prior to an upcoming camping trip. She called me before she left, saying she was going camping with friends and asked if she could borrow some of my camping gear. She was excited about going and told me she loved me. That was totally normal for her. She was a very affectionate person. When Anu arrived the following day to pick up her gear that she intended to borrow, Sherry asked where she and her group of friends were headed. And though Maureen was a self-professed nature lover, she was

not an experienced camper. So their destination, the Gifford Pinchot National Forest, was a bit surprising to Sherry. She described Anu as a very laid-back, carefree girl. And though she had reportedly longed to spend more time in the outdoors, her expectations were unlikely to match the harsh realities of the wilderness. Sherry said, I asked her why now? And Maureen told me that she wanted to go on a spiritual quest. That really concerned me. Yeah, that makes me think of like mushrooms or something. That's what people do. They go into the woods and they do shrooms and they go on their spiritual quest. I mean, not just shrooms, other drugs too, but like...

Yeah. You're not the only one that is going to draw some conclusions about what that might mean. Yeah. The group of friends headed toward the Gifford-Pinchot National Forest for their campsite at the Canyon Creek Campground. They drove out to Chilachi near Highway 503, from there traveling steadily northeast, reaching Forest Service Road 54. When they start saying Forest Service Road, it's fairly remote. Next, they would have traveled down a series

of small back roads until they reached Canyon Creek. Their total drive time would have been roughly three hours or so, depending on traffic. Once they found the specific area they intended as their campsite, it would have required some initial prep work to make it comfortable for their stay as this area, both the trails and the campsites were entirely unmaintained.

Oh wow. Okay. So this is like it is for experienced campers. It's not like a campground with a bathroom. Correct. Definitely no facilities. Nothing crazy though really, just clearing away debris like pine needles from items like the camp stove that they would need to use before setting up their tents and preparing their evening meal. On June 9th, all of the accounts I've read say the group was simply enjoying themselves as the afternoon began to fade into evening. The group proceeded to enjoy their surroundings, no doubt unaware that by morning they would reach a horrifying realization. One of them was missing.

I feel like this is like a horror movie. A little bit. It's giving sort of a last house on the left in the extreme. But when Kelly had left their campsite that evening, most accounts state this was around 5 p.m. One thing everyone agreed on and parroted as loudly and frequently as possible was that she'd been as naked as the day she'd entered this world. Wow, okay. Well, okay, almost. She was wearing a fanny pack containing a knife, matches, and a compass. Honestly though, a baby wearing a fanny pack is a pretty cute image though. So

you're welcome if that's what you thought of when I said that. Because I immediately pictured the baby in a fanny pack. Oh that's a lot, that's cute Yeah, that's the best I could do. That would be like what you would need if you were going to take anything with you, I guess, in a fanny pack in the woods, right? Yep. Those would be some arguably critical items. I would say, yeah. That night, she'd been set on the idea of a spiritual quest, which... Right. We already spiritual quest, which... Right.

We already knew that, but... Better naked. Arguably, yeah. I mean, is this maybe the best environment for it? Probably not. Debatable, probably not. But I just get it. It's like shedding your layers and just being as free as possible. I get it.

Yeah, yeah. I feel like there's a lot of this that just, you know, it makes sense. And you're 19. Right. And your brain's still cooking. And so many things. And now I feel ancient and I have to move on. Some reports of the events that night state

that she told them that she would be back by midnight. And this, I think, based on everything I've read, is the account that I trust most. Unfortunately, however, when she didn't return by midnight, their campground and the surrounding area would have been pitch black. The terrain is rough and densely forested, their campground and the surrounding area would have been pitch black. The terrain is rough and densely forested, making it difficult to navigate even in the

daylight for some. So regardless of mounting concern, it simply would not be practical to do much in the way of searching until sunrise. That makes sense. While it had been a warm day and the area didn't see any precipitation leading up to and less than a quarter of an inch in the immediate hours surrounding her disappearance, very important information. And you can trust me on this because I literally spent close to 30 minutes verifying historical weather data alone for this case.

I really want everyone to know I know what the weather was. Unfortunately, the temperature overnight plummeted. There was grave concern about the various ways Anu could come to harm alone and completely exposed in the woods. And yeah, naked and cold. Mm-hmm. And I feel like you're having the emotional and sort of intellectual also response that I very much did as well to this.

Now is when I'm going to start reading you some comments that, unfortunately, not everyone is going to have the same response to the same information that's being presented. I don't know, I guess people have to decide to do with that what they will, but I know how I felt about it. And I've already said, I got a real ick. I got a real ick. Okay, so we've decided to use an alias for this commenter. Kobe Teeth said, Guessing she was high as a kite or hammer drunk to do such a thing. Temperatures could have brought about

hypothermia relatively quickly if she got lost and there's every chance she did. The next comment goes on to say, totally agree this seems pretty obvious to me. She might have even taken the drugs cetera, as part of the quest. It's the old cliche, take peyote or whatever, wander off to meet your spiritual animal. Because real life is not the movies, instead she meets the fate you outline. Thank goodness it was probably relatively painless.

Oh, God. She might even have succumbed while imagining herself on the verge of ultimate enlightenment. For what it's worth, undersheriff Dave Cox said that while it was a bit unusual for a 19-year-old to leave their campsite with extremely limited supplies and completely nude. There was no indication that she was on drugs at the time of her disappearance. Maybe they just didn't find any and they didn't want to push the subject. I don't know. But they're the cops. So that's a thing that they typically will do. Right. Though concerning, given the circumstances,

friends gave no indication that this behavior was strange for Anu or that drugs were involved, despite numerous comments to the contrary. I never really realized what a cesspool Reddit really could be because I'm late to the party. But of course, there would be speculation. To some, it just didn't seem like it could have occurred in any other scenario than some drug-laden haze. I mean, there are a lot of different options. Sure are.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that was like my first thought too, but like, I'm not going to go say that that happened. Like, that's what happened for sure. Yeah. I would say based on the dates, I know for a fact that these are people that are speculating on an open missing persons case.

Yeah, that's icky. Yeah, you're icky. Search crews were dispatched to the area in the hopes of rescuing Anu quickly before she succumbed to the elements or another threat. Footprints that appeared to be a match to her were found. So they ran that lead down. They discovered that she had apparently crossed a creek and climbed up to a road on the other side of the canyon from her group's campground.

I mean, that just seems like a lot of... I mean, she started off when it would have still been daylight hours. So all of this is entirely plausible at this point. And she's certainly a physically capable young woman. From here, it gets a little bit more murky. That just like sounds like she, so she did all that to get up to a road. It sounds like she was like trying to run away. It's interesting that you should say that. She had apparently been headed north toward Forest Service Road 54.

K-9 units from Pacific Crest search dogs were brought in as well, but her scent was lost once they reached paved roads in the area. I'm concerned. Yeah. I'm going to read to you the next comment from The Hammer. Although the weather on the day she disappeared was mild, temperatures that night dipped into

the 40s. Without any clothes, she would have quickly succumbed to exposure. And that is a direct quote from the Charlie Project. So 40 is that cold? I guess it's pretty cold, but... It's barely above freezing. Okay. Yeah, I guess. And you're naked.

I guess. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I mean, I kind of ran through all of the scenarios and it almost felt like I was a little bit like bargaining. Like, oh no, that can't be. But I kind of just felt like the 40s aren't like immediate death. Like to me, like I feel like you could find like a hole and cover yourself with stuff. And like the 40, like I feel like you could survive that. Like it's not like it's dangerous for sure.

Right. So I could survive that. Like it's not necessarily, like it's dangerous for sure. Right. So I could see that. I was just like wanting to know how immediate is this danger? Yeah. I mean, I think at the point that she hasn't returned the following morning and, and they know that she has remained out in the forest

overnight. I think that's, that's where it becomes dangerous, but this comment goes on to say, paired with her footprints ending on a road, this implies she was taken or picked up. But also, is it possible she walked along the road for a while, or is that too weird considering she was naked?

I mean, I don't think it's weird. I don't know. I'm actually bracing myself for the next series of comments here. There is a reply to that comment specifically, and it says, they did have to postpone the search due to weather. It's all just a strange case. I want to say she was picked up too. There's theories that maybe she joined a tribe or a cult. There's just not much info on this case at all. So it's all just so mysterious. That feels unnecessary. Mm-hmm. And I feel like maybe it's a poor choice of words and or the sentence structure,

but I feel like that almost feels like you are attributing sort of the same problematic characteristics to being a part of a tribe as a cult. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. And then also, if you had proof of that, that would be important information that they would need to go find if she's truly missing. But if you don't, that's just such a weird thing to waste time in saying.

And I get it. This is, These are not tips that are being called into law enforcement. These are people speculating. I will say again with these comments, they are during a time when the case may not be active in the sense of like they're not actively searching for her, but I will say that the case was active in a different sense. There is another reply. Anu would never have joined a cult.

She was a beautiful free spirit. Something terrible happened to my dear friend. There's no other explanation. My community combed the woods for years after there was never any sign of her anywhere past the footprints. Unfortunately, the group of friends she was with is who I'm suspicious of even though they were my friends too and I wouldn't want to think that of any of them. Damn.

The search initially proved unsuccessful, and by the following Saturday, almost a full week, as the search was suspended at 6pm, there were two reported injuries on the search and rescue team. An ankle injury as well as a paw injury to one of the canine team. No, puppy paw. Puppy paw. Oh gosh, and these are people who are like used to searching in these areas. So they're getting injured. Damn. I am so glad you said that because my next sentence is this further highlighted just how treacherous the area currently being searched and where Anu had seemingly vanished from really were. I mean, those are not ideal circumstances. Yeah. Did she have shoes on or did she have shoes on? She did not.

No shoes, just the fanny. The reporting that I read is literally just the fanny pack. The local authorities were even said to have contacted search and rescue teams in neighboring areas, reportedly even in Oregon, just in case. Sadly, eventually the search of the area was suspended without further plans to continue. Though the authorities gave no indication they suspected foul play, Anu's DNA was submitted to the National Missing Persons Database. Now, to be fair, this would prove useful for identification in the event that remains were later discovered in the area. Though her body has never been located,

officials do believe it is likely that Anus come to the elements, whether by hypothermia or another natural cause. Officially, her case remains unsolved. However, I have some more comments to share to provide context to discussions around her case as well as the various unofficial theories that have emerged in the years since Anu's disappearance. Okay, I was wondering what do they do in terms of searching if they lost her scent at a paved road? So I understand that they were still searching the area, but were they...

Is there other places they would then search or did they search or did they just search that area, like the park area? Ultimately, because it's, I mean, it's a massive national forest. They did search a lot of the area surrounding the campground. And they also reached out to other authorities in the area. And I mean, literally even in the neighboring state. Yeah. So I don't think that the search was necessarily inadequate or, you know,

but I do think it presents some challenges when they use scent dogs and then they kind of come to a dead end with that, especially based on these specific circumstances. And unfortunately, I mean, this is someone who, it's unfortunate that they were naked only in the sense that there's not a lot for them to be able to leave behind. You can't rip off the sleeve of your t-shirt and leave it somewhere as like a marker. Yeah, that is true. Which I'm sure is not where your head is at all at when you're,

you know, going out on a spiritual quest. Right. And again, I think it's, I think it is important to note that, you know, this is, you know, she said, I'll be back before midnight. But that was fully seven hours prior. I mean, this is like still very much daylight hours. I feel like it kind of begs the question like what happened while there was still light outside. And there's a lot of different potential explanations, obviously. Yeah. explanations, obviously. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

I was just kind of wondering, like, what do you, what do they do? I guess they would, like, wait for a tip or maybe, like, her... Or to find something. Yeah. Hopefully you find something in the forest that somehow indicates, you know... I don't know what that would be. It's hard to say. Okay. So, theory number one,

she is no longer missing or never was. And in this instance, we're sort of citing various reasons, or it's kind of a... It's of a it's multiple theories it's like one a one b one you know for reference her last youtube video was uploaded two days before her disappearance and her facebook account has also remained dormant we We're back to the comments. Aw, I don't like this. I will say that a lot of the comments did not make me feel good, but there were some, and I do believe that I have one a little bit later here.

I feel it sort of renewed my faith in humanity for what it's worth. Okay. A little bit. If she was recovered alive, the family may have kept it private because they perceived her as requiring mental health intervention.

This is pure speculation, of course. I have no idea if she was suffering from mental illness or just a free spirit following her heart. But if she was recovered and required hospitalization, her family may have kept it quiet. Unfortunately, there is still a terrible stigma about mental illness, despite the strides made to normalize it in recent years. Again, I'm only speculating since we're still waiting on confirmation she was even recovered at all. I hope she was and that she's doing well and that she

found the answers she was looking for that day." So this hints at some speculation that the family people have specifically pointed to her brother as someone who may have helped her to obfuscate her own missing persons investigation. There is just next to nothing that substantiates this at all. And I can understand having the thought. And this person, I do feel like at least approach this in a semi respectful and responsible way by saying this is purely speculation. But we do have some additional comments. I don't really understand what they're trying to say. Yeah, I think, I think what they are implying is that, you know, she may have been having some sort

of a mental health episode and that once she was recovered, her family has not spoken publicly to confirm or deny that she has been found, because they are seeking mental health treatment for her. Okay. Which is admittedly a possibility, but again, you know, this is what happens. That just seems like way out there. It is. I don't know. It is. And I do feel like, you know, some comments are approaching the situation and

the discussion a little bit more respectfully. And like I said, responsibly about, you know, I'm acknowledging that this is pure speculation, but like based on the information I have, maybe this is sort of my theory. I get that. So some subsequent comments. Well, you know, I hope you're right. I know I don't know her, but I wish they would let those of us who think of her know she's alright too. No personal details needed. An additional comment. I'm pretty sure if her NamUs page is still active, then she is still missing.

An additional response, not necessarily. Megan Good of the Charlie Project speaks frequently of her frustration with NamUs because they often leave up profiles well after a person has been recovered. She reaches out to them to ask that a page be taken down and generally gets no response. Really, is that true? Hard to say. I feel like you should know. I have not seen this accusation levied frequently.

And I can only speak to my experience of like, you know, what I've come across when I research, but we will come back to this comment about Namus and her status in a little bit. Okay. So, related to sort of this theory of like, she's not missing or possibly never was. Anyone else think it's strange that after December of 2017, the family completely stopped posting about her? Her mother would post on her wall very often, even on holidays. Now it's nothing.

Hmm. I was going to ask, like, does her family still, like, look for her, say anything about looking for her? And I feel like those are questions that it's natural to have. I will say that I understand that impulse. But at the same time, people don't handle this type of grief and loss. and loss, there's no right answer. One thing I did find very interesting is that there, in these groups, and I'm sure this does happen, in some of these message boards, there were more than a few people that did purport to know her

and or her family personally. And I'm sure maybe some of these commenters do. As someone who grew up with her, her brother had addiction issues, last I knew, and I think that was probably a large aspect behind his post. There's sort of an infamous post. I think it's a big nothing burger. I think it speaks to someone who's experiencing

an incredibly, it's just, they're experiencing loss even if she is found. There's nothing definitive. Essentially what it amounts to was they created a Facebook page for her case and for her disappearance. And at some point he posted basically, if you're looking for answers, you're not gonna find them here.

And I feel like to me, that just sounds like someone who is grappling with this immense loss and really struggling with the fact that they have no answers about their loved one. I don't think that I find it the lightning rod that some other people do on various social media platforms. Maybe they're right and I'm wrong, but. I could totally see though how like it in unsolved case, there's like no information. And then that like, I could see how people jump on that.

Absolutely. That's sad. Um, this commenter goes on to say, I have questions as to why her friends let her leave naked and intoxicated. To my knowledge, they were all doing mushrooms and she just up and walked off as to why her friends let her leave naked and intoxicated. To my knowledge, they were all doing mushrooms and she just up and walked off essentially. Easily could have been stopped. It's strange to me that her friends let her leave

and that her trail dropped off at a road that screams foul play to me. Sorry, I am commenting so late. I decided to look her up today and this post showed up." And this comment is actually quite a bit more recent than many of the others. I mean I definitely have those same thoughts too but like if you're all shrooming supposedly or like all intoxicated I mean maybe they didn't designate a babysitter like who, who knows what everyone else, if they were tripping balls, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and just because the police didn't find any evidence that that was the case doesn't mean that it wasn't. But I think the fact that the, that law enforcement in this case has come out and said, like, we have not found anything to substantiate that as being an aspect of the case. Where are you getting this information that everybody or anyone was on any type of psychedelics? Like, are they just assuming or like where can we? It feels very much like there are a lot of assumptions being made. And unfortunately to me, I felt like maybe I am, maybe it's me and maybe I'm being too extreme, but to leap from a 19 year old that is saying they want to go on a spiritual quest, which admittedly,

there are implications, there are things that we're all going to sort of like have rolling around in the back of our heads, but to go from that to she joined a tribe or a cult. Yeah. Okay, first of all, how racist can you be? Yeah. I don't know. Maybe that person thought that there was some sort of a tribal association out there that was cultish. I really don't know. I'm not sure, but I think it feels very problematic to me to assume that, like, there is a brown person and there has to be some sort of like this nefarious connection to that. Yeah. I don't know, and maybe I'm reading

too much into that, but as I'm reading all of these things I'm thinking do they understand that she's actually not native or indigenous? She's Asian, Pacific Islander, according to all of the other data out there. So do they just assume that all brown people are members of a cult or... A tribe, yeah. Again, again, I'm extrapolating on things that people have said, and maybe this is me taking it like they went too far and I'm going that much further.

I just feel like your take was icky. Yeah. It just felt like none of this changes the facts of the case in terms of like, this is where she went missing, this is who we're looking for. And I get that there would be interest in other details of the case, but like, we haven't found her yet.

So like, maybe let's focus on that. I don't know. I think like it's harmful too to imply that she like up and joined something or like, because then they'll stop looking for her. I do. I think that's a part of it to me too, is that like assuming that, you know, she's done something wrong, it's concerning. It's concerning. I don't think that the police are necessarily reading Reddit boards. You know, they're not, they're not checking through subreddits and reading YouTube comments.

Right. Hopefully in connection professionally to a case, but... Maybe if they don't have anything, maybe they do send someone to scour the internet. I don't know. I mean, we do know that that can be an aspect of an investigation. So again, I just, I don't know. I didn't like it. I don't like it. I'm never gonna like it.

Okay, so the final in this series of comments, she wanted to go on what she called a spiritual quest and thought it to be a spiritual quest in doing so in that mind state. Also, it wasn't okay to allow her to do that alone. And I wouldn't have ever let it happen, but I moved and wasn't able to protect her. The people there that night,

if they let her go knowing she went, and I know they did because I heard their stories myself, and as I told them, they should let that weigh on them. They deserve it too. I'm so disgusted with anyone who would let that happen. She may have been picked up at the highway. She was the brightest energy I've ever met. There's a lot going on with that one.

That is, and it's a lot of on with that one. That is it. And it's a lot of blame. I definitely understand you got to look out for your friends, but like she was an adult. Yeah. You can't necessarily just stop somebody from doing something they want to do. I don't know. And she was naked. What are they going to do?

Put their hands all over her? Also, it's daylight hours. So at that point, that maybe wasn't that alarming. Yeah. I feel like there's a lot of shade being thrown at the friends. And I feel like based on the scenario that they were actually in,

I just don't think that it's as salacious as some of the coverage has maybe led people to believe. That would be awful to be those friends and if you truly didn't do anything wrong, like how awful would you feel and then you have people kind of thinking that maybe you had something to do with it or you are to blame for letting her go.

I love that I'm realizing in this moment why I wanted to mention that she was a Libra. This is such Libra energy. Yeah, seeing both sides of things. Yeah. And it's all about the scales and justice. And I just was like, wow, how is this hitting me in real time? As much time as I've spent researching and writing this up. How? How did that not occur to me until

just now? But here we are. Her social media has been quiet, but some have seen indications that her family's perceived silence in the years following her disappearance might also be an indication that they know something the public at large does not. Which I feel like is a really, that's, it's a, it's a really tough pill to swallow that somebody could be missing and their family could be, you know, covering for them or somebody could be classified as missing and not actually missing. I will say this, there were a lot of comments and I initially screenshotted several and intended to read them as part of this that were talking about comments that her brother had made on her

missing persons page, comments specifically talking about how the family had stopped posting about her. And I was like, oh my God, I'm concerned because, and I'm sure you could do this with almost any other case, but this case, it didn't have as much information out there about it as I would have liked. And I started trying to look for more information and I wanted to know what people thought about the case. But I got a little bit panicked thinking, my gosh, like, is it possible that she's not missing? Like, is it possible that just some of this stuff hasn't been updated? I really started to worry.

And here's the thing, even if that were the case, I would rather talk about someone who I thought was missing but had been found than to have their case go into the cold, dark night. But my text to you guys was going to be about, I decided not to send it because I couldn't not give away what we were gonna be talking about. And it would have made no fucking sense, but my text was going to be, It was, it would have made no fucking sense, but... My text was going to be, um... To the effect of, I am so relieved.

I am, like, sad, happy, crying right now because... I... I mean, I went full, like, web sleuth level shit. And I don't, I, that's not something that I necessarily do for every case, but I, I wanted to know that people miss, miss her. And they fucking do. They really do. If they're lying or they know something that we don't, they're doing a damn good job of keeping it under wraps and I'm here

hoping they have a good reason. I don't think that's the case. I really don't. And I feel like there's so many shitty things that people have said. But her brother, on June 9th, 2024, missing you extra today. You're the most beautiful soul I've ever met. I'm forever grateful for you and it hurts so bad. I can't hold you tight and tell you I love you one more time. I'm so fortunate to have these videos you've made to comfort me and remind me of everything

we've ever done together. You're my best friend forever and I hope to see you again." It's one of a couple of posts that he made about her in 2024. And unless he's scouring Reddit and thinking he's gotta cover some shit up, I just, I know that people can say what they think and what they feel or suspect in a case, but this one really got me.

This one really got me because I just felt like everyone has been young and done things that maybe weren't the best idea. It doesn't mean that they deserved bad things to happen to them. No, not at all. I mean, gosh, even if she was totally super fucking high and like went out and like that still does not mean that she doesn't deserve to be looked for or... Right.

I just... The fact... And I don't think that there's anyone that came out and said, well, she was high, so nobody should be looking for her. But I feel like what people say in so many words and the implications, like that matters. Yeah. It's like, well, you deserved it. Right. What was she wearing?

Yeah. Nothing. It kind of doesn't matter. It actually does not matter. Obviously, there's the hotly debated theory that the disappearance was brought about by a psychedelic experience gone wrong. But there are some additional theories. While some have postulated that Anu's scent dropping off at the paved section of road might mean she had run off with an unknown party in a bid to flee her family and friends to find freedom, others have speculated whether she may have been forcibly abducted from that same location instead. And while it seems far-fetched, the name of at least one infamous serial killer has been

mentioned in passing, if not directly in connection to her case. No. I think that the consensus is that this is unlikely, just given the remoteness of the location. But I am gonna read to you some comments here. As a Washington resident, I find it more plausible that she died of something nature related than foul play. Although I recognize foul play is possible. I'm not familiar with the environs of the campground she left,

but the forests are dense here. Think of how hard it was to locate many of Ridgeway's victims. Mmm. Never Bundy did, I believe, come up in an additional comment that I did not save. Good. Hashtag never. I was hoping you were gonna say him. Yeah. No. Unfortunately, just based on the geographic location, Ridgeway would be the more relevant, arguably. But in one of the Reddit threads that I was looking at,

someone posted a link to a YouTube video and they were insistent that the person that they saw in the video was Anu. Having watched a portion of this YouTube video, I can safely say I do not believe this person is Anu, and I sincerely hope it is not. It is someone who is clearly unhoused and may or may not be experiencing mental illness and or some substance issues. Not great.

The section of the comments, not necessarily related to that, but this is kind of in the same region of that block that I'm going to read from. So it starts really, who, when, and where did you see this? And then it really just takes a hard left and they go in a different direction. There is another thread. It is not interesting to read and it is upsetting

if you think that you are about to see a video of a person that has been missing and maybe this case is solved. Hope beyond hope. I can only imagine for anybody that actually knew her, even tangentially, how they would have felt. And arguably, wow, just what a shitty feeling. And there are purportedly multiple people

that did know her that had been active in these threads. And that person who did view the video and comment and respond said, you know, this is a hard no. This is definitely not her. It's heartbreaking to think about them opening that link. And like in a weird way, hoping beyond hope that maybe this is her and she's safe, and maybe there's some sort of explanation or... I can't. I mean, the hardest thing

about a missing person's case has to be that you just don't have answers. And to think that you're going to get an answer, whether it's the good bad or the ugly even for a minute I yeah oh this is a local in the area that's commented I want to add for people unfamiliar with the area there is no cell phone reception and no satellite reception. Even though it was 2013, she wouldn't have been able to just call someone to pick her up

in the remote woods like that. That campground is really remote and in the middle of nowhere with a bunch of wilderness areas just east and north of the creek. That makes sense. Yeah, I mean, Forest Service Road. just east and north of the creek. That makes sense. Yeah, I mean, Forest Service Road. And this is another one where it's potentially someone

that knows her or knows of her. I know her and her brother as well, but moved to New York. She was like my little sister. I grew up with the whole family and got in trouble and stuff, even stole a car once with her brother, LOL. But she was the brightest energy you could ever imagine and a waste to the world. And if her brother knew anything at all,

I don't see how he would not say anything. I don't get it. He was protective over her. And one more comment. I saw a report that human remains were found in that area in August. Testing being done should know soon. So that is the one comment in this particular thread that hints at the latest

theory from the Skamania County Sheriff's Office. On August 10th, 2024, a hiker recreating in the big lava bed located within the Gifford-Pinchot National Forest in eastern Skamania County reported locating human remains. The hiker found a human skull and captured the GPS coordinates of the location. A deputy responded to the location the next day but was unable to locate the skull reported. The hiker volunteered to return to the area accompanied by a Schamania County Sergeant. And the skull was recovered on August 15th, 2024. Whoa.

Based on the preliminary investigation, it is believed the remains belonged to a hiker that went missing in 2013. Hmm. The missing hiker was last observed in the Big Lava Bed, and after numerous coordinated search efforts, was never located. The skull, along with other remains located in the area, was transported to the Clark County Medical Examiner's Office for definitive identification. This is an ongoing investigation and no

risk to the public has been identified. Though we could not find any indication that law enforcement has provided confirmation or even publicly speculated about the possible identity of the remains, many believe they are likely either Maureen Kelly or Christopher Zitzewitz. Going out on a limb here, and I'm guessing on the pronunciation. I didn't bring up my proposal this year just because I wanted to talk about that. Or even just because it lines up with this time of year. Arguably, the discovery of the remains, that was literally within a couple of weeks of my wedding.

Yeah. And it's nice to reminisce about like the good things that have happened in my life. I mean, getting engaged was super exciting, so much so that I butt dialed pictures of my wrist. And being a newlywed is another major milestone in my life, but it hit me when I got to a certain point in my research for this case that Anu is only a handful of years younger than us. It's not like it's the first time that I looked into a disappearance of a young woman. Obviously, for some reason, something about this case just, it just hit different. It just hits somehow in a specific way at a specific time, and that's how we know when

we want to talk about something. It's just, there's so much, there's so much to experience in life between ages 19 to 31. This September would mark her 32nd birthday. And I was doing a lot of the same things that Anu did at that age. Even the ones that drew her so much ire all over the internet following her disappearance. Anybody ever been to Sabi's Island? You know, do you remember at the very beginning of this episode when I was like, oh, you sent me nudes. Like, how did I know this is the... that would have fit so well into this episode?

Yeah. Oh my gosh, you guys, I have been to a beach where it is permissible to be nude. Yeah. I have been. I'm in. What I will say is that I think how we view people, it changes based on some of the choices that they make. And then when they go missing, everything is under a microscope.

But none of it makes her less missing. Maureen Kelly was 19 years old at the time of her disappearance. An Asian Pacific Islander female with black hair, brown eyes, about five feet, seven inches tall, weighing roughly 150 to 160 pounds. And whether it's the recent remains that helped to identify and bring her home, I hope her family has answers someday soon. This is just one that I didn't know going into this that there was potentially an update.

Yeah. Wow. So they still haven't identified it at all? They have not released the identity of the remains. Oftentimes for remains that are recovered, when they do testing like this, it can take a significant amount of time before that result is back and then even more so before the public is made available or made aware of the results. Yeah, I think it's not on everything that I have seen as an observer, very possibly, very unfortunately, typically years.

We need to know. I know. I mean, not just us, mostly for their families and their friends and loved ones, but like also us. Everybody, everybody, like just just we need to know. We, the collective we, we need to know. Bonnie. We are. We're gonna do the Raiden. I really hope they figure it out.

I know. Just like have some answers. Okay. I'm gonna go with this one because something when I split the deck this last time, I have drawn the King of Swords. Oh, when I split the deck, I just felt like I was drawn to that and I guess we are gonna see. Okay.

Okay. And what animal was on it? It looks like a like a heron of some sort. Okay, I'm going to read the main interpretation and then we'll we'll take a look at the little book. Okay. Our key words are judgment, intelligence, mental power, and communication. In some decks, the king of swords sits on a throne wearing royal robes and a crown and brandishing a mighty battle sword.

Other decks show him in military armor. In a reading he may represent an actual person, in which case he's usually a mature man known for his intelligence, communication skills, fairness, and objectivity. The Upright King represents intellectual pursuits, communication, and spiritual knowledge and study. A spiritual, what was it? Like a spiritual quest? Yes, yeah. I know, I was kind of, that's exactly what I was thinking. Interesting.

You may be mastering a mental task or using your communication skills successfully. Sometimes this card indicates a decision, judgment, or legal matter. If the king signifies an actual person, he may seem stern, analytical, or aloof, perhaps a lawyer or judge, a professor, military leader, scientist, or religious leader. A cult leader? I'm not picking up that vibe, but I sort of was thinking, hmm, maybe.

I just hear a lot of the word judgment too, and it just makes me think of like the comments, like all of the judgment from the people. So much judgment. And I feel like just based, unfortunately, not on a lot. Yeah. In a reading about money, the King upright recommends taking charge

of a financial matter. Do your homework, don't let your emotions influence a decision involving money or investments. This card may also mean profiting from an intellectual endeavor, which I assume means everyone is joining the Patreon. LAUGHS It just, it made me think of like what you were saying of how we don't make very good decisions when we're younger

and maybe like more, I don't know, more emotional, if that's the right word, but you were saying like our brains are fully developed, we're not making like really good decisions, so. No, I think that that is such a good point to draw though, because it is, it's a little bit more like leading from your heart because you just don't maybe have the experience to indicate where you maybe should do otherwise.

Yeah. If the reading is about your job, it may indicate you work in a field that requires keen intelligence, good communication, or analytical ability. The King advises you to show leadership regarding decisions or judgments. Clarity and objectivity are important. That almost makes me think of like the sheriff. I don't know, I'm sort of thinking about some of the statements that they have released and they're saying like it's unusual for this particular set of circumstances, but we don't have any indication that, you know,

drugs are involved. Thinking about sort of coming from a place of objectivity. In a reading about love, the king symbolizes a relationship based on shared interests and ideas rather than passion. You and or your partner resist expressing deep emotions, preferring a friendly partnership. Perhaps you fear losing independence if you open your heart."

Oh, she wanted to be like free. Didn't you say something about like freedom or were you just... Yeah. ... were people speculating that she... It's hard to know how much is speculation and how much people have extrapolated even on direct quotes from people close to the situation. I will say I was correct. It was a blue heron. Ooh. Yeah. Nice.

Great blue heron. Authority born of rational thought, clarity of mind and purpose, insight, seriousness, and strictness, exacting standards and truth. Truth. Yeah. I feel like, I don't know, I feel as though there was something sort of that she was searching for.

I don't think that like people have speculated that maybe she was looking to escape her life. I don't know. I wasn't there and I don't know her. But I do think there are a lot of people that would like to see this case solved. And certainly all of us that are on the periphery are the least of all concerns, obviously. But I really do hope that her family will get some answers. I think it's possible, certainly. It's a distinct but unlikely possibility

that some of what her brother has posted on social media is performative. And I know that there are cases where maybe I would, maybe I would say the same thing that other people have. I think that it's such a jaded perspective based on the information that we have. And I really hope that doesn't color people's perception of the case enough that, you know, they're not doing the hard work that needs to be done in order to find her. I hope that doesn't keep a missing person missing. I did want to add because, listen, it's been a minute

since I've checked our PO box. We did have some mail. Also, we had a package. Oh, so I wanted to just share while we're here and can say hi to everybody and acknowledge receipt. Officially. We got your mail. We got it. Okay, so we have, I think we have a couple of Christmas cards. I did receive some messages because people did not realize that our PO box had changed. We did have our PO box forwarded to what degree of success remains to be seen. Yeah.

We've got a Christmas card. This was re-mailed to us a few weeks back. They had some issues with the forwarding from our old field box. I know, I'm so sorry. We tried. I know, we tried. Okay.

They did not make it easy. So thank you, Sean and John. Your dogs are unbelievably adorable in these little cartoons. Yeah, you're gonna wanna see this. When we're like back in person, you can see this. Oh, my gourd. Okay, and then I'm assuming we can share this.

We can message Sam to find out, but... Aw, how sweet. Okay, so you can't really see this, but on the back, he has done something that all of my Midwestern relatives have done. I presume for generations, he has written a note so that we know where he was and when. Oh, I love that. I love when people do that

because my mom would do that all the time. It's my favorite thing. I know. I'm like, is it even a photo if you don't know where it was taken? Sam at Oregon Ghost Con 2024. And he is wearing the Ghost Con hat in the photo. That is so cool.

I want one. I know. We'll have to go. We have to go. I know, we gotta go. We gotta go. Okay, so this we received from our friends at Sinzon Survivors.

They are based in Nevada, Sean and Joan. This says, witchy cauldron. Okay. Okay. And it has a sticker that says, you've always had the power, my dear. You just had to learn it for yourself. Oh.

Which is from the Wizard of Oz. I'm gonna say that sounds pretty familiar. Yeah, a couple of theater kids over here. Okay. We just made our own musical on a Patreon bonus earlier. Yeah, we did. Okay, oh, oh! The Celtic Cross, a guide to using your tarot cloth. Oh, oh The Celtic cross a guide to using your tarot

cloth Oh Cool. I love those things. We got to use it. Yeah Dull. Here we go to use this really nice gift someone got for us. This is so soft Oh, it's it's silky on one side, but then like fuzzy on the other Like velvet like a real That's so cool Nice I don't yeah, we don't have a lot of experiences. Well, I don't with like spreads

So I mean I use them but I've never had like the cloth Historically. Oh, I'm so excited about this. You know how I feel about the Celtic Cross. And it's like easier when there's like a guide, obviously. Like, oh my goodness. This is like each of the card, like the placeholders, they're embroidered. It's not just like, oh, cool. Cool, cool, cool.

So it's not just like laser printed or... Yeah. Oh my gosh. That's so fancy. Now we got to send them a gift. I know. We don't deserve you. We should do a reading for them with it. We totally should. Is there any other mail? That was all we have for now. We should do a reading for them with it. We totally should.

Is there any other mail? That was all we have for now. What, you guys send us more mail, no I'm just kidding. That was plenty. I am so excited about that. Me too. Should we do our thing? Yeah, let's do it before this dog kills me. Kills me.

Did you just put your hand in front of... Did Chris just put his hand in front of the camera? No. He didn't? No. Dude, I'm freaking out, okay? Did you see that? No. What happened?

I don't have good service. Like you've, you're just like kind of blurry. You've been like in and out and like glitchy and then that's fine. I know I don't have good service, but just now it literally looked like someone just like put their hand in front of the camera. Like this is a joke. So I thought Chris just walked by and like did this. No!

So I don't know if it was just like, if it glitched and like zoomed in on, like if, well, okay. What's funny about this is I love that both of us were just like, Chris. Yeah. I was like, Chris? I fully, okay, so here's the thing. What's ironic about this is that the pod lab door has always been this, like, horror movie, creaky and like stiff. Like the door that everybody is like yanking on time to escape,

he fixed it. Cassie, that shit ain't the same. You fixed it, Cassie. Oh, wow. That shit ain't the same. It opens and closes silently, which I conveniently forgot when I thought I heard. I thought I heard it opening and closing like it used to. Oh, weird. That bitch is silent now.

So I don't know what the fuck happened earlier. Well, I feel like what I was seeing was just like your camera glitching out. And I don't know if it's going to show it because on your... Like it's going to... When it's recording, it's going to be smooth. Yeah. It was just really... It literally just looked like this. but like blurry and glitchy.

Oh my god, I hate that. And it hasn't done anything like, like it's been you and your face will kind of glitch out and stuff, but it hasn't done this full screen like, it looked like a blue hand. That was so weird. A blue hand? Yeah, like I thought it was like, cause you're lighting. It looked like a blue hand. That was so weird. A blue hand? Yeah, like I thought it was like... Like I'm being haunted by a fucking avatar?

I was like, I thought it was like your lighting, but that wouldn't really make sense. No! The blue lights are on this side. Okay, I'm gonna start camera... I'm gonna start video-camering the screen. Seriously? Wow, that was insanely creepy. I'm gonna be thinking about that now for a really long time. Yeah. I gotta watch the video back then,

because I am curious if it picks anything up. Ah! Okay. I feel like we have not had anything really all that weird happen in this apartment. It's you're doing what you shouldn't do. Renovating. What?

You renovated. You kicked things up. No, all I did was fix the door. Not even the door. Countless renovation. Just the hinges. Just the hinges. The ghost said not that they're, they be renovating. We're- But there wasn't a ghost here before. We're getting rowdy. It's renovation season. I see a hammer. Let's go.

Oh my god Do a nice do a nice cleansing of your of the office Have a creepy ass day. We'll see you next Tuesday. Unless a big giant blue hand just like covers up my face forever. Gosh. Please be safe. We do want to see you next Tuesday. So if you go into the woods, be safe.

If you need to go on a spiritual journey, just please do it safely and with people and yeah, maybe pack some clothes just just in case you get lost. That would be good. But also there's nothing wrong with free balling if that's what you want to do too. That's for sure. Come to Taro with us. Do it. Oh, she's such a piggy. He's such a little piggy.

Oh my God, she's so cute. No. I just wanna smush her face. I know. She's got a really smushable face. So smushable. Okay, maybe I'll throw a food in her bowl. Okay. So we can finish the shit. Thanks for listening. Visit sinspod.co slash subscribe for exclusive bonus content and to listen ad free.

Remember to like and follow us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok and threads at Sins and Survivors. If you're enjoying the podcast, please leave us a review on your podcast platform of choice. You can contact us at questions at sinsandsurvivors.com. If you or someone you know is affected by domestic violence or needs support, please reach out to local resources or the National Domestic Violence Hotline.

A list of resources is available on our website, sinsandsurvivors.com. Sins and Survivors, a Las Vegas true crime podcast, is research written and produced by your hosts, Sean and John. The information shared in this podcast is accurate at the time of recording. If you have questions, concerns, or corrections, please email us. Links to source material for this episode can be found on our website, sinsandsurvivors.com. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the podcast creators, hosts, and their guests. All individuals are innocent until proven guilty. This content

does not constitute legal advice. Listeners are encouraged to consult with legal professionals for guidance.