Sins & Survivors: A Las Vegas True Crime Podcast - The Last Dance - Debbie Flores Narvaez - Part 1

Episode Date: February 27, 2024

Debbie was an intelligent and talented dancer who pursued her passion in Las Vegas, but then disappeared without a trace. Shaun & John explore her story and the impact it had on her family and car...eer. We'll talk about her background, her tumultuous relationships including her domestic violence plagued relationship with Jason "Blu" Griffith, and the events leading up to her mysterious disappearance. Let us know what you think about the episodehttp://www.sinspod.co/episode18sourcesJennifer Romas' Dance Tribute to Debbie Domestic Violence Resourceshttp://sinspod.co/resourcesClick here to become a member of our Patreon!https://sinspod.co/patreonVisit and join our Patreon now and access our ad-free episodes and exclusive bonus content & schwag!Apple Podcast Subscriptionshttps://sinspod.co/appleWe're now offering premium membership benefits on Apple Podcast Subscriptions! On your mobile deviceLet us know what you think about the episodehttps://www.buzzsprout.com/twilio/text_messages/2248640/open_sms Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/sins-survivors-a-las-vegas-true-crime-podcast--6173686/support.

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Starting point is 00:00:00 Some things just take too long. A meeting that could have been an email, someone explaining crypto, or switching mobile providers. Except with Fizz. Switching to Fizz is quick and easy. Mobile plans start at $17 a month. Certain conditions apply. Details at fizz.ca. To listen ad-free, visit zinspod.co slash subscribe. Starting at $2.99 a month, you'll also get access to our exclusive bonus content episodes when you join through Patreon or Apple subscriptions. Thanks for supporting the show. Debbie Flores Narvaez was intelligent, talented, and passionate, and had an overwhelming urge to
Starting point is 00:00:34 follow her dreams. Some people might be satisfied working in the world of high finance or perhaps with a career in law, but not Debbie. Her true passion was performing on the dance stage, and there was no keeping her from something she set her mind on. She moved to Las Vegas in 2008 to pursue that dream, and on the precipice of her success, she disappeared without a trace. Hi, and welcome to Sins and Survivors, a Las Vegas true crime podcast where we focus on cases that deal with domestic violence. I'm your host, Sean, and with me, as always, is the one and only John. I am the only John in the room. Because of the complexity and detail involved, we're going to cover Debbie Flores Narvaez's case over two episodes. As always,
Starting point is 00:01:25 we feel it's important to focus more on the victim of this horrific crime, along with the family members she left behind. A lot of the coverage of this one is really sensational, but we're taking a different approach, reminding everyone as we do that these are real people and they matter. Debbie was born in Puerto Rico on July 5th,, to Elsie Narvaez and Carlos Flores Roman. She has one older sister, Celeste Flores Narvaez. The family moved to Maryland when Debbie was very young, just seven years old. She spent her teenage years there. Several news outlets claim that she attended Old Mill High School in Millersville, Maryland, but she is listed among the class of 1997 at Owings Mills High School, which is in Owings Mills, Maryland. The schools are about 35 minutes apart by car. We're honestly not sure which one is true, but
Starting point is 00:02:15 Owings Mills seems more likely. Regardless, she attended high school in Maryland and was a cheerleader. And as you learn more about Debbie, you'll realize that her being a cheerleader isn't surprising at all, given her love of performance and dance. Debbie was also very smart. After high school, she attended the University of Baltimore and Towson University, where she studied business and law and earned her MBA. I'm honestly not sure how she managed to study all those things, but somehow she did it. While Debbie was in college, her parents and sister moved to Atlanta and finally divorced when Debbie was 23 in 2002. We came across a very cool article in the University of Baltimore alumni magazine from the fall of 2008 that we wanted to share to give more color
Starting point is 00:02:54 as to not only the type of person she was, but also some insight about how she was perceived, in this case, by her alma mater. We're going to post a photo of this article from the university's alumni magazine, but we want to highlight it here too. It talks about Debbie and how starting in 2007, she was a cheerleading ambassador for the Washington NFL team, now the Washington Commanders, which given her history as a cheerleader and high school outgoing personality and passion for performing, isn't surprising at all. Here's what the article has to say about Debbie. Anyone who believes NFL cheerleaders don't have much in the way of brains should think again. One of the requirements to be a cheerleader is to have a professional degree and a professional job
Starting point is 00:03:36 or to be a full-time mother, says Debbie Flores Narvaez, BS03 and UB-Towson MBA student who has been a Washington NFL cheerleader's ambassador since fall of 2007. She goes on, we have doctors, attorneys, CPAs, and so on. Flores Narvaez explains she has year-round cheerleading responsibilities. There's a lot of charity work involved, she says. Cheerleaders go overseas to entertain American troops, and when the troops come home to Walter Reed Army Medical Center, we visit them. Since the NFL pays for these appearances, this has also been a good way to pay for my MBA, Flores Narvaez says, adding that when she earns the degree, she wants to move to Los Angeles to pursue a career in fashion and dance. While she was working as an ambassador for the Washington football team, she was also putting that finance degree to work as a senior
Starting point is 00:04:29 financial analyst. The cheerleader position got her out into the community but wasn't really paying the bills. In the summer of 2008, Debbie decided to make the move to Las Vegas to pursue a career in dance. She moved here with her boyfriend at the time, a dancer named Jamil McGee. McGee was a professional dancer who had been featured in music videos and appeared in 2009 in Wayne Brady's Making Shit Up at the Venetian. He also appeared in the first season of So You Think You Can Dance. These two had a very tumultuous relationship. Most of the stories you'll read about Debbie will mention that Jamil had taken out a temporary protective order against her in August of 2009, but let's dig a little deeper into this to find out the rest of the story. To begin with, we could not verify that Jameel filed a temporary protective
Starting point is 00:05:12 order against her in August at all. It could be that the 8th Judicial District here in Las Vegas simply doesn't store the short-term TPO as described, or it could be that this never happened. We don't have a way to validate that. What we can tell you about in detail is another lawsuit between the two. In August of 2009, Debbie filed a lawsuit against Jameel alleging that she suffered scarring as a result of a June 2009 assault in which he kicked her stomach, dragged her from her car, and quote, held her hostage in her apartment while continuing to beat her. She alleged that the scarring resulted in her losing modeling jobs, leaving her with only the $40,000 income from her part-time dance jobs. During the trial, McGee's attorney characterized the charges
Starting point is 00:05:57 as frivolous, and they offered to settle with her for $1. He also claimed there were no medical or police reports associated with the assault. In the end, the court ruled in Debbie's favor, awarding her $250,000, of which she unfortunately never collected anything. His lawyer stated that McGee had left Las Vegas a year earlier. A little more about Debbie. She was extremely determined, and her friends have often said that when she got her mind set on something, there was no stopping her. There were times when her passion and drive were taken for insubordination. She would always speak her mind very directly. It seems very much like people always knew where they stood with her because she was one bad bitch, and you get the strong impression that she meant it in the best way possible. She would pay her friends bills without prompting if they were in need, and offered to fight for them in court when they got traffic tickets. As you might expect, she was fiercely devoted to her friends and family and didn't play around when it came to relationships.
Starting point is 00:06:56 Her sister Camille said she was a fantastic aunt who was very loving and loved a big holiday celebration, especially Christmas. On the Facebook page dedicated to her, we found a great photo of a pink Christmas tree she had. It's entirely pink and has ballerinas, purses, shoes, dresses, stars, snowmen, candy, Hello Kitty, Victoria's Secret pink dogs, and a pink Cadillac. Jason Blue Griffith was almost the same age as Debbie. He was born in Brooklyn, New York on December 10th, 1979, and was an extremely talented dancer who attended Juilliard in New York. You may have heard the name Juilliard because it's one of the most well-known
Starting point is 00:07:34 and top-tier schools for drama, dance, and music. It's essentially the Harvard of schools for the arts. It has produced legends like violinist Itzhak Perlman, actress Viola Davis, and movie score genius John Williams. Jason performed at the Mirage in Las Vegas in the Cirque du Soleil show Love based on the music of the Beatles. He was also a background dancer for Toni Braxton in a show at the Flamingo around 2006-2008. Debbie met Jason at a football halftime show in 2009, and the two hit it off and started dating soon after. It wasn't long before things went sideways for the couple. We've read several accounts from people who know the couple that Jason was known for sleeping with other dancers,
Starting point is 00:08:15 which didn't sit well with Debbie. And I want to add here that according to court records, Jason got married in Reno in 2006, and to this day, he is still legally married to that woman. Jason only just filed for divorce from her in October of 2023, and the divorce is still not finalized as of time of recording, February 2024. To say that Jason and Debbie had a turbulent relationship is a huge understatement. By February of 2010, Jason was seeing someone he met on a dating site, and as Sean mentioned, he was sleeping with a number of his co-stars. Debbie was no idiot, and she was very suspicious of his cheating. In May 2010, however, Jason met Anier Roux, a French dancer in the Cirque du Soleil Zumanity
Starting point is 00:08:55 show at the New York, New York Hotel and Casino, and they also started dating. Right around this time, according to Jason, Debbie told him she was pregnant, and Jason said that he brought her to a clinic to terminate the pregnancy. Shortly thereafter, he broke up with her. That July, though, on her 31st birthday, just three months after they broke up, he bought her a pair of shoes as a gift, and then they got back together. One of the things that comes up a lot is that Jason claimed on more than one occasion that Debbie would not leave him alone and that she was obsessed with him. But it seems like Jason was the one continually reeling her back in, just like he did on her 31st birthday. It was as if he just couldn't stand the idea of her moving on with her life without him, so he didn't allow that. Once they were back together, Debbie was allegedly accepting of
Starting point is 00:09:44 the idea that Jason was dating both her and Anya, according to her friend's comments, but it seems that Anya was not at all okay with the arrangement. We listened to a 911 call from Anya where she complained to the police about her boyfriend's obsessive ex and told them Debbie was constantly calling and texting him. It shouldn't surprise you to learn that at this same time, Jason was seeing other people outside of both Anya and Debbie. Interestingly, it's also noted in the court records that Debbie and Jason attended couples counseling. It's hard to understand why that is, however, unless this was just Jason's attempt to keep Debbie on the line, because it's clear that he wasn't interested in a monogamous relationship with her, given his behavior. In all, there are three documented cases of domestic violence involving Jason and Debbie.
Starting point is 00:10:30 In one of them, Debbie is accused of domestic abuse, but she is listed as the victim in the other two. Police records indicate that on October 9, 2010, Jason contacted them to report Debbie's presence at his residence, where she was allegedly harassing him. When the police arrived, Debbie informed them that two days prior, Jason had headbutted her as she sat in her car, resulting in damage to the windshield wiper lever on the steering column. Police noted and documented the damage to her car. Jason also captured a cell phone video of Debbie in which she admits to assaulting him, saying, I hit you, broke into your house, looked at your laptop, poured egg whites on your car, and slashed three of your four tires.
Starting point is 00:11:15 On October 22, 2010, there was a particularly violent domestic violence incident that resulted in Jason being arrested and charged with felony domestic violence. The arrest report is a bit of a mess and critical elements have been redacted from it, but it's clear that Jason, Anya, and Debbie were all involved. From what we're able to piece together, the incident started when Debbie was following Jason in their respective cars and bumped her car into his, although neither car was damaged. Debbie claimed that Jason approached her, took her iPhone, elbowed her in the chin, and took off in his car. Anya and Debbie both followed him. When they stopped again, he got out of his car and threw her phone about 100 feet away. She went to get the phone, and when she did, he attacked her again, pushing her down and pulling her hair in an attempt to get the phone back from her.
Starting point is 00:11:58 He pulled her hair so hard that he ripped a chunk of it out. And we know that part is true because it's explicitly corroborated in the police report with a photo. Jason then drove off again and they both followed him again. And when they arrived at his apartment, the police were called and Jason was read his Miranda rights. He confirmed to the police that he was taking her phone to prevent her from calling the police. And he was charged with domestic violence and battery with a hearing scheduled to occur in a couple of months. Since 2009, Debbie had been working as a part-time dancer in the Luxor show Fantasy. She was what's known as a swing member of the cast, filling in on a regular rotating basis for the full-time cast members. I am sure that anyone who's been to Vegas in the
Starting point is 00:12:38 last 20 years has seen the billboards for Fantasy. It's been a show at the Luxor since 1999. It typically has between 12 and 20 dancers in the cast, and currently they have a vocalist who performs with the dancers. It's an award-winning show for categories like Best Bachelor Party, Best Female Review, and Best Showgirls. I have not ever seen it, but after reading about it this week, it made me want to. Fantasy is produced by Anita Mann, who is an Emmy Award-winning choreographer, and according to the Review Journal, she's known for being empathetic and having a den mother demeanor. Debbie loved being a part of Fantasy, and the producers and the show's creator, Anita, had so much praise for her.
Starting point is 00:13:16 They said, She was hardworking and always willing to fill in. As a swing, she would only get the chance to be in the production three to four times a month, but as we've said, Debbie loved dancing and she worked hard at her craft. According to Anita, although Debbie was technically a swing member, she said she was a full member of the production. She would go to whatever charity event they asked and would volunteer anytime, including at the employee talent show at the Luxor. Whenever they needed her to make an appearance, she was there. And this all sounds very much like the role she took on as an NFL cheerleader ambassador. By December 2010, Debbie was on the verge of her big break.
Starting point is 00:13:51 Cisco. Remember Cisco? Remember Thong Song from the year 2000? I know someone is out there listening because it has over 210 million plays on Spotify. Debbie and Cisco knew each other from Baltimore. Debbie used to dance with him before she moved to Vegas. Debbie reached out to Cisco and persuaded him to come out to Vegas and check out the fantasy show. Debbie worked her magic on Cisco and convinced him and the fantasy producers that the cast would do a special two-week-long performance of Thong Song
Starting point is 00:14:22 with Cisco as part of the number. These special performances were scheduled for December 13th through the 25th. This number was 100% Debbie's baby. She worked on the choreography with the producers and attended multiple rehearsals for two weeks straight with no days off. They even flew her to LA to work with a choreographer there to create the special performance. Thong Song would be Debbie's chance to finally become a main cast member, and she was so dedicated to making the show perfect. There's a video on YouTube posted on December 10, 2010,
Starting point is 00:14:51 which shows the cast rehearsing the choreography for the Cisco number. Cisco isn't in the video, but the song is a remix that has a very retro jazz and cabaret spin to it, almost as if it was being covered by postmodern jukebox. It looks like it was a clever, postmodern jukebox. It looks like it was a clever, unique routine and a definite showstopper. The rehearsal schedule was grueling. On December 12th, the day before opening night, the cast rehearsed in the afternoon and took a break before coming back for a midnight rehearsal. Midnight comes, and Debbie doesn't show. She's a no-call-no-show, and Anita was very angry at first. But knowing what the show meant
Starting point is 00:15:26 to Debbie, she quickly grew concerned. She texted Debbie, are you okay? But got no answer. The next day, a 2 p.m. rehearsal was scheduled, but it's more than just a run-through. The rehearsal was also going to be used to film publicity footage to publicize the show. Anita said there was no way that Debbie would miss that, especially since the Cisco plan, the routine, the whole thing was Debbie's idea. Anita said it was like Debbie's dream. 2 p.m. comes and goes with no sign of Debbie. Opening night of the Cisco performance happens without Debbie because, of course, as they say, the show must go on. By this time, Anita had started calling trauma centers, hospitals, and the police,
Starting point is 00:16:05 assuming Debbie had been in an accident. The next day, December 14th, Debbie's roommate, Sonia Sonnenberg, called the police to file a missing persons report. It was pretty obvious that something had gone wrong for Debbie to miss the final rehearsals and opening night in particular. All of her friends knew that her not showing up would blow everything up for her, not just the Cisco show, but likely her whole career at Fantasy. According to Sonia, Debbie hadn't been at home, either. Debbie wasn't answering texts, and her phone was going straight to voicemail. There was no activity on her Facebook or her MySpace, where she was very active.
Starting point is 00:16:39 According to her friends, Debbie was always on her phone, and she had more than 5,000 Facebook friends that she kept up with. According to Sonia, she had last seen Debbie on the evening of December 12th when Debbie said she was leaving to go to Jason's house so they could watch the season finale of Dexter together. Surveillance cameras at Debbie's condo showed her getting into her car alone around 7pm wearing black knee-high boots, a dark shirt, and dark jeans. She was carrying a black purse and a white gym bag. She then drove off in her maroon 1997 Chevy Prism with Maryland plates. The police, as you might expect, went to talk to Jason, who they referred to as her
Starting point is 00:17:18 ex-boyfriend. He said that he had seen Debbie, but she had only just driven by his house. She never got out of the car. He said that she said that she, but she had only just driven by his house. She never got out of the car. He said that she said that she was going to meet with some friends, that she was alone in the car and everything seemed to be fine. There was no clue or indication that something was wrong. The police said he was completely cooperative. On December 16, 2010, the police received a call about an abandoned car in the backyard of an empty house 16 miles away
Starting point is 00:17:45 from where Debbie lived, which was obscured from sight and the rear license plate had been removed. The car matched the description of Debbie's car and the police ran the VIN number and determined that it was her car. The police were fairly certain nothing had been stolen. Her phone and her computer were in the car and neither had any activity after December 12th, and the car was in good condition and completely drivable. The police opened the trunk of the car, and thankfully Debbie was not inside. They also searched the property and the home nearby, but there was no sign of Debbie at all. They processed the car at the crime lab to look for DNA, fingerprints, and blood, but nothing of note was found. This was all very concerning. While it was a small relief that there was no blood or signs
Starting point is 00:18:29 of violence, the abandoned car didn't provide any answers as to where Debbie was. Debbie's sister Celeste traveled from Atlanta to Las Vegas to join the search for Debbie. She had never been to Las Vegas before, and regretfully, she had never had the chance to see Debbie perform on the strip, and she relied on friends of Debbie to show her around. She worked tirelessly to get her sister's name and face in the press, and the story of her disappearance became national news. According to an interview given to CBS News, Celeste lost 7 pounds in 6 days. She wasn't eating, she was surviving on water and coffee, and just focused on finding her sister. She was hanging up wanted posters and started a Facebook group dedicated to finding her. Celeste planned to stay in Las Vegas as long as it took to find Debbie,
Starting point is 00:19:09 even if it meant skipping Christmas with her children. She said, my kids are my first priority, but so is finding my sister. Her message for whomever had harmed or kidnapped her sister was, bring her home, let her go, let us know something, just tell us what you want. Debbie's story and the circumstances of her disappearance were being regularly reported on with abundant speculation about what had happened to her. The news came out that about two weeks prior to her disappearance, on December 1, 2010, Debbie had sent a cryptic text message to her mother that confused her mom at the time. Debbie wrote, In case there is ever an emergency with me, contact Blue Griffith in Vegas, my ex-boyfriend, not my best friend. When her mom asked her what that meant, Debbie replied, Never mind, mommy, just keep it for your records. When the news of this text exchange went public,
Starting point is 00:20:00 it of course ignited many theories and questions about if this could somehow be connected to Debbie's disappearance. On December 21, 2010, the Las Vegas Metro Police Department held a press conference to provide an update. Lieutenant Rob Lundquist of the Missing Persons Division spoke and confirmed many of the facts we've discussed already. Debbie was seen leaving her condo around 7 p.m. on December 12, and Debbie's roommate had told the police that Debbie was headed to Jason's house. They also confirmed that they had spoken to Jason. He told the police that Debbie was going to meet up with some friends, but the police didn't know which friends or if she had ever made it to that meetup. They refused to provide any details about Jason's criminal history, and they did state that other than the domestic violence
Starting point is 00:20:40 incident on October 22nd, they had no evidence that Debbie had ever been the victim of a violent crime. Lieutenant Lundquist also explained that they didn't know why she decided to drive by Jason's that night. When asked, he explained that he wasn't sure if Jason had called her to invite her over to watch TV or if she had called him or what the details really were. The police would not reveal any details about any text messages, emails, or communications that Debbie had had with anyone or that they were looking at as being suspicious, including that message she had sent to her mom earlier in the month. A member of the press asked the question if maybe Debbie could have been the victim of an obsessive fan or stalker. We heard similar points being brought up when we talked about the Shauna Tiafé case, that perhaps she had been stalked by someone who had
Starting point is 00:21:22 seen her perform. Lt. Lundquist stated that they did not have any evidence to confirm that theory. One of the topics frequently being reported and speculated on in the press was a rumor that Debbie was pregnant. A question asked during this press conference was, is she still pregnant? And Lieutenant Lundquist reported that he didn't know. Being pregnant is very dangerous for women. The number one cause of death for pregnant women is homicide. After the press conference, Lieutenant Lundquist stressed that there was no indication of foul play. He stated that it was possible that she may have left on her own, but they were treating her disappearance very seriously and looking at all possibilities.
Starting point is 00:22:04 He stressed that this was a missing persons investigation, and he did not call Jason a person of interest. He stated they were interested in talking to anyone and everyone who had contact with Debbie or any information regarding her whereabouts. On December 22nd, the police interviewed Jason again. Jason mentioned two other boyfriends of Debbie's that might have wanted to hurt her, including Jameel McGee, who we mentioned earlier. Jason also reiterated that he only had a short interaction with Debbie on December 12th. He also mentioned that Debbie was distraught over their breakup and that she was contemplating taking her own life. He suggested that the police look for her at the windmill overpass on the 215 Beltway, which is oddly specific. We also want to mention here that the police did interview Jameel,
Starting point is 00:22:44 but he had a very good alibi. He was living in Baltimore here that the police did interview Jamil, but he had a very good alibi. He was living in Baltimore, so the police eliminated him as a suspect in her disappearance. On December 23rd, the Las Vegas community held their breath when a partially burned body was discovered by hikers just over the border in Arizona near the Hoover Dam. The body was a woman with dark hair and a similar body type to Debbie. At the time, the police said there was nothing at the scene to indicate that it wasn't or couldn't be Debbie, but the identification would need to wait for an autopsy. Two days later, the coroner's office determined that it was not Debbie, which was understandably a huge relief to Celeste and
Starting point is 00:23:20 all of Debbie's friends and loved ones. However, I want to take a moment here to pause because the woman was named Young Park. She was 39 years old at the time of her death, and she was brutally murdered by two of her co-workers, Min Soon Chang and Kyeon Kun Park, who is not related to Young. They were both found guilty of first-degree murder and are serving life sentences. The motive for the crime was said to be that Young owed them, combined, $9,000. Unfortunately, due to the fact that so much media attention was on Young not being Debbie, there wasn't a lot of coverage about who Young was herself. My attempts to research and learn more about her were futile. After it was confirmed to be Young and not Debbie, according to the Review Journal, Celeste said that she would not allow herself to think negatively. She said,
Starting point is 00:24:09 I'm still hopeful. I'm bringing my sister home for the holidays safe and sound. Somebody still knows something. Somebody saw something. You don't have to say your name. Just call the police. It's the holidays. Please bring her home for the holidays. Unfortunately, as we mentioned, Celeste ended up spending Christmas in Vegas away from her kids because Debbie was still missing. On December 30th, on Facebook, she wrote, How do I make it through? I take it one day at a time. I face my fears. I keep my promises. I deal with the challenges. I turn to caring, positive people I know will be there for me. I believe. I stay strong for you. I keep the faith for you. And I make room for a brighter day that someday soon is going to shine so much serenity back into my life with you in it.
Starting point is 00:24:49 When 2010 came to a close, there were still no answers to Debbie's disappearance. Celeste and Debbie's co-workers were struggling. Metro had made it clear that they needed someone to come forward with information. Anita Mann said that the dancers in Fantasy had to fake it just to make it through their performances, going through the motions and holding out hope that maybe Debbie just needed to get out of town for a while. Next week, we will bring you part two of Debbie's story. We want to thank you as always for listening and remind you that in our show notes and on our website, you can find local, national, and international resources for domestic violence, sexual assault, and trafficking, because what happens here happens everywhere. Thanks for listening.
Starting point is 00:25:56 Visit sinspod.co slash subscribe for exclusive bonus content and to listen ad-free. Remember to like and follow us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and Threads at Sins and Survivors. If you're enjoying the podcast, please leave us a review on your podcast platform of choice. You can contact us at questions at sinsandsurvivors.com. If you or someone you know is affected by domestic violence or needs support, please reach out to local resources or the National Domestic Violence Hotline. A list of resources is available on our website, sinsandsurvivors.com. Sins and Survivors, a Las Vegas true crime podcast, is research written and produced by your hosts, Sean and John. The information shared in this podcast is accurate at the time of recording.
Starting point is 00:26:40 If you have questions, concerns, or corrections, please email us. Links to source material for this episode can be found on our website, sinsandsurvivors.com. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the podcast creators, hosts, and their guests. All individuals are innocent until proven guilty. This content does not constitute legal advice. Listeners are encouraged to consult with legal professionals for guidance.

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