Sins & Survivors: A Las Vegas True Crime Podcast - The Murder of Hurleen Dulai ft Alleged Actually Podcast

Episode Date: August 12, 2025

Ash Armand / Akshaya Kubiak portrayed himself as a spiritual zen master, along with being a reality TV personality on the series "Gigolos" on ShowTime. The show runners said they knew one of these guys would do something stupid, but they had no idea it would be Ash, and they had no idea he was capable of murder.In this week's episode, we have a special extended collab with Sherry from the Alleged Actually podcast. We'll explore what we learned about Hurleen Dulai, his amazing client and victim, who found herself being preyed upon by this "healer".Let us know what you think! You can also watch the video on our YouTube channel.https://sinspod.co/91https://sinspod.co/91bloghttps://sinspod.co/91sourceshttps://sinspod.co/91sub (Substack Article)https://sinspod.co/91video (Video of the episode on YouTube)Alleged Actually Podcast: http://sinspod.co/allegedactually (Give Sherry some love!)Domestic Violence Resourceshttp://sinspod.co/resourcesClick here to become a member of our Patreon!https://sinspod.co/patreonVisit and join our Patreon now and access our ad-free episodes and exclusive bonus content & schwag! Get ad-free access for only $1 a month or ad-free and bonus episodes for $3 a monthApple Podcast Subscriptionshttps://sinspod.co/appleWe're now offering premium membership benefits on Apple Podcast Subscriptions! On your mobile deviceLet us know what you think about the episodehttps://www.buzzsprout.com/twilio/text_messages/2248640/open_smsBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/sins-survivors-a-las-vegas-true-crime-podcast--6173686/support.

To listen ad-free, visit sinspod.co slash subscribe. Starting at $2.99 a month, you'll also get access to our exclusive bonus content episodes when you join through Patreon or Apple subscriptions. Thanks for supporting the show. In July of 2020, more than 3 million people in the United States had been infected by COVID-19 in the worst pandemic in over a century, and deaths had reached almost 1,000 a day. Everyone was on edge and scared, and because of lockdowns and increased stress, rates of domestic violence were skyrocketing across the country. Las Vegas was no exception, and on the morning of July 16th, a reality TV star from the showtime show Gigalows named Ash Armand, born Akshaya Kubiak, called 911 and told the operator

he needed paramedics and police because he had brutally murdered his friend and client Erlaine Dulli. Well, welcome back to Sins and Survivors, a Las Vegas true crime podcast where we focus on cases that deal with domestic violence, as well as missing persons and unsolved cases. I'm your host, John. So what's happening here? Because Sean was tied up with research for another episode, it's just me this week, and I have a special collaboration episode for you. I teamed up with Sherry from the Alleged Actually podcast to talk about this week's case. The Murder of Hurlene Deli by Reality TV Personality, Akshya Kubiak.

I'll share all the links for the alleged actually podcast in the show notes, so when you're done listening, make sure you head there and subscribe. We're also curious to know how you like this format and the fact that we're doing video for the first time this week. We'll post the full podcast with video on our YouTube channel and share that link in our show notes too. So without further delay, here's the episode, The Murder of Hurlene July. Hello everyone. It's your girls Sherry and welcome back to another episode of Alleged Actually podcast. Y'all, tonight is that episode that I've been talking about for like weeks now, maybe even months. Tonight I am joined by a very special, special guest, but he is not a stranger to the show. I want to welcome John from Sendin Survivors, Las Vegas,

True Crime Podcast, one half of a great dynamic duo in True Crime Podcasts. I have worked with them last year on an episode that we did on the Constantino's Mark and Debbie. And first off, welcome, John. Thank you for being. Thank you. Great to be here again. Great to see you again. And I'm sorry, Sean can't be with us. She is currently off researching another case. So she kind of assigned me to this and said, you go work on that one and I'll work on this one. We're working in parallel right now. But she says hello. All right.

All right. Yeah. Shout out to Sean. They're both dynamic. I am not shocked that they are both off doing amazing things in the realm of true crime and domestic violence, which is what they tend to focus on. And most of the cases are out of Las Vegas. And so let me give you guys a little background. So a lot of times we talk about how the world of reality TV and true crime intersect.

Last year, I rolled up on this compelling case of, like I said, the Constantino's Mark and Debbie Constantino, reality stars of Ghost Adventures. We did a two-part. There's the video over here at Alleged Actually. And then we also did an episode together on Sins and Survivor's Podcast. So first of all, you need to make sure you are subscribed and following both. And now we had been waiting to work together again. And so it was a night that happened to be watching an amazing documentary on Paramount. Plus, and it was called Cincinnati Jigilos, and three-part, this was three-part documentary. It's called a murder in Las Vegas. And it was about on the show, if many of you have watched on Showtime, and I'll put the picture up of the cast of Jigalos.

Oh, I'm sorry, that is the wrong picture. I'm sorry. Let's get that right one there. Okay. So the show jingalows on Showtime. It aired in 2011 to 2016. Many of us watched it. I watched it.

And one of the more popular cast members, Ashramon, was involved in a murder back in 2020. And y'all, any of you that know this show knows that Ash Harman was the Zen guy. He was the holistic spiritual guy. He was the peaceful one. He was the even killed one. He was the one that got the guys kind of, you know, together. And he was just really not with all the foolishness and all the antics that we like to watch the guys get into. That just wasn't Ash Armand.

And so when the documentary came out and I found out that he had been involved in a murder and not only just any murder, and we want to speak on the victim, Harlene Duly, a very, very graphic and brutal murder. And so tonight, we're going to get into that case. We're going to talk about Ash Armand. We're going to speak on Harlene. I don't think that victims, particularly in cases where the murderer is famous or, you know, popular, you know, sometimes their names do not get the respect that is decided. So tonight we want to highlight her and talk about her as well as him and we want to get into why it's so compelling the fact that the way he was portrayed on the show and, you know, and sometimes what we see on TV and we've said this many times.

Reality TV just isn't always real guys. And so we're going to get into it. So John, I want to as we get into the case before we get into talking about Ashes background a little bit. more. I wanted to get your thoughts on why you were also kind of like, because when I like reached out, John was like, I'm on it. Let's do it. Let's let's get, let's get into this. And so let's talk to the audience a little bit about why you were ready to dive into this one with me as well. Yeah, this one, um, we've been wanting to cover for a while. Um, we were definitely aware of it. Um, I lived here at the time. Um, we've only been doing our podcast for about two years,

but I was aware of it. I wasn't really a Jigalos fan per se. Apparently, I'm not quite the demographic for Jigalos, but whatever. That's fine. So I kind of knew about it. I heard that this had happened, but I wasn't really focused on it at the time. But in our podcast, like you said, we focus on domestic violence cases. And one of the things, especially in Las Vegas and Nevada at large, and one of the things we will often complain about is the fact, that the perpetrator is the one that gets all the focus. We don't hear a lot about the victim. So one of the things we try to do in the podcast is talk about the victim. In this case, we were able to find out, thankfully, a lot about our victim, Herlene, and about her life and kind of the amazing person she was. And we even got to, you know, through court footage, see her family. we saw, you know, her sister and her dad and her mom and, like, some of the clips of their victim statements are just heartbreaking, but to just Google this case and, you know, do the

cursory research on this case, you see a very different view because not only are we up against the problem where the media likes to just, you know, share the gruesome details. And like you said, there are some gruesome details. But this person was also, you know, I'm going to say celebrity. I think at the time they were, they had a degree of celebrity for sure. And just the fact that this particular jigolo was Mr. Zen warrior. He was, you know, Mr. Love, Mr. Understanding, Mr. rebuilding your brain pathways using mushrooms, like all about tantra. and massage and loving on people who perhaps wouldn't have, you know, been dating someone who looked like him.

He looked, we can, you know, you saw the picture of him. And if you watch the show, you know, he looks like a, you know, like an Indian Fabio. That's how he was described. Yes. I mean, the dude's a, it's a good looking man. So, you know. So that's what drew us to it. We wanted to cover this case and really talk about her lean and.

and that angle of it. And then, of course, we met you and we know that you follow, you know, more of the reality TV stuff. And we were like, oh, this is a perfect, this is a perfect thing. Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, absolutely perfect. You know, the worlds collide again. And unfortunately, it happens a lot more than we realize. We're going to do a little bit of background.

We're going to talk about Ashramon. and mainly not to just solely focus on him, but I want you guys to understand the compelling piece of this because of who this man presented himself to be. So let's talk about his early life, John. He actually was born to like, and it really makes sense. Like his parents, you know, are that real behemian type.

Yeah. Born to an Indian mother and Polish-American father. And he was actually born in India, but spent time in Japan in Maine. And, you know, the thing is his parents, or particularly his mom, and she was featured in the documentary, the three-part documentary. And she talked about the fact that they, you know, they focused on their Eastern philosophies, tantra, spiritual healing. So this is not something that he just, you know, rolled into as an adult, kind of what was like. you know, poured into him as a child, you know, and his upbringing. And so this was something that was actually a part of him that, you know, he then took on with him to take into his adult life and the things that he felt that were important and incorporated into what he did.

Before he even became Ash Armand, his name, y'all, his given name is Akshaya Kubiak. And he was born in the early 1980s. Yeah, he would be about 45 or so right now. So he was born in like 1981. And the other thing that I thought was interesting about his upbringing and his mom talked about this, so we're not really talking out of school about it, is that his mom was married to his dad. But his dad also had another wife that.

Um, so they lived together as sort of a family unit and, uh, there were multiple children. Um, and so, uh, he was very open to, um, like, open and flexible relationship styles from an early age, I guess. Um, and I thought that was really interesting. And, and like you said, she really introduced him to, um, all of the, all of this healing energy stuff, which I'm not so much. of, you know, I'm not really so much of a, like an Eastern medicine guy. But she did say that she has done mushrooms with her son, which is interesting. She said he's great to do mushrooms with. Not sure what that means. But yeah, so she was like very open with him. So it, it makes sense that this might have been something he did as a career. Absolutely. And sometimes I think, you know, part of when you dive into these kind of cases, or if you do a deep dialogue, anybody. One of the first places you always want to look at is, you know, their upbringing. How were they, yeah, reared, you know, information about their parents and how they grew up because it kind of gives me that foundation onto what we're starting here with. So I thought it was very, very interesting. And so prior to him getting on Gigalows, he was a model, like John said, a massage therapist. And he took that really serious. John, I don't know, you know, he had studied this.

He well traveled, too, you know, Japan, Thailand, parts of Europe, just really. A very international upbringing, like. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was really interesting. Very. And like a very, like a very chill family. Like when you see his mom talking about him, like there were never any allegations. of any sort of domestic violence, like, of his, you know, dad and his mom.

Nothing like that. No allegations of that. No indication of that. And really, I think, importantly, and we talk about this a lot, he had no history of any sort of violence at all whatsoever. Never, you know, he said himself, I, you know, he said at one point, I've never hit a woman. I actually believe that. I do. I do too. That's sincerely. And I think, again, that's what makes this case just, like I said, so shocking. And so with that being said, you know, we wanted to then look at how did he, he was in Miami, like I said, doing his modeling thing, his, you know, massage therapy. Go ahead, John. Are you going to say something?

I was going to say working for cowboys for angels, you know, doing a, yeah. the like Darren there so a little background there was there is another documentary that we also watched um to get a little more uh information you know about the whole situation this was the first documentary that i saw so when the investigation um when the paramount plus um documentary came out i was like oh i know this story like i've already seen a documentary about this these will probably be about the same thing but the the one we had seen previously was much more focused on his early life and his um you know the effects of social media on him and and whatnot like the earlier stuff um so um at that point he was working he was as they said uh he was a a boyfriend without strings

so he was acting as a jigolo and it was the person who discovered him darren who was also an executive um i think he was a creative consultant or a creative producer or something on the jigolo show he thought ah like he discovered um you know know, Akshaya in 2011 and thought, this is a good person that I would like to put him on Jigalos. And that's how he made his way onto Jigalos in season three, his big break. Yeah, yeah. And it actually was. I mean, when he joined the show, it was at a time where, I won't say the ratings were starting to suffer,

but he just brought an element, a different element to the show. And like I said, I watched. I've been watching. I had been watching since season one when he joined the show. You know, some of this stuff, you know, I've read accounts that, and let's be clear. So, prostitution is not legal in Las Vegas. Right. It is legal in the, not in Clark County, in counties outside of Clark County.

So outside of Las Vegas, outside of Henderson, where we live, it is legal, but not here. Right. And so the focus of the show was, you know, here they were in Vegas. and jigilos and, you know, cowboys for angels, you know, agency, whatever. Some of it was a bit scripted or set up to a degree. And you didn't see, I mean, they were set up the women that would, you know, of course, you know, by their time or whatever to tell the story. And like I said, it was interesting. And anytime you see you had very different characters.

And I showed you the cast photo. Every guy kind of had their thing. You had Nick Hawk who was like the badass, you know, bad boy and Brace, who was the older guy, really tan with a really bleached blonde hair. Bradley, Bradley Lords. Yeah, well, that was the, and then the Marine, yeah. That came in later. He came in later. Oh, Brace.

I was thinking, I'm sorry, you were talking about Brace. Brace. He's just the older guy. Then Bradley came on. Yeah. The older gentleman. Right. Brace was the older gentleman, but he had by the following as well.

And then Bradley was the Marine. And the Southern boy. And then, you know, you had this exotic ashramon. Like John said, like the Indian Fabia, the long hair and the cool, chill vibe. So, and then you had Vince Armani, who was kind of like. The intellectual. The intellectual. and yeah, you know, and, you know, he kind of like played off with the whole

Vin Diesel thing, but yeah, he gave you an intellectual more, intellectual stimulating Ben Diesel, you know. So, I mean, you know, everybody kind of had their thing. He came on and brought something different and did make the show interesting. And so as it continued, the show went all the way through 2016. and we want to talk about then kind of life after the spotlight for him John, your thoughts, you know, because the show, like we said,

it wrapped up in 2016, yet he still remained an employee of Cowboys for Angels. So even when the cameras wrapped up, he was still working for Cowboys for Angels at that time. And John will punt over to you for some more commentary. One of the things that struck me about Akshaya and his, you know, being elevated into this position and, like, all this notoriety. And they talk about it a little bit in both the series. So he, you know, he relocated to Las Vegas.

And one of the problems I had with the other documentary on Investigation Discover, And I'll like, you know, we'll share the links to both of the, the documentary so you can watch them. It focused more on their, you know, how they were living in Las Vegas. Like they were going out to clubs and it was, you know, there were a lot of drugs and drinking and pool parties. And like a lot of just like general 24-7 debauchery, like every day was at the, you know, it was like a scene from the Mandalay pool. Like, yeah, it was crazy. But to me, it seems like the fame that he experienced and as quickly as he became famous, I don't know that it had the best effect on him. It seemed like it kind of broke his brain a little bit.

And he was always chasing followers and chasing clicks and chasing more notoriety. And that was fine when Jigiloh's was on. And he was hot. Like, he was the in thing, you know, table service at all the clubs and. and whatever. But when the show ended, like you said, the attention wasn't as much on him anymore. And I think he had a problem with that

because he was continually chasing it. He had two very important relationships that both the documentaries talked about, one of them much more. He was involved with Tucci Cash, who was another influencer. There she is. The lovely Tucci Cash.

So he dated her for about two years. And this did not end well. So at the end of the day, he exhibited some problematic signs, relationship signs, some jealousy, some controlling behaviors. And their dynamic, I think, was fascinating. I don't know if you have anything to say about their power dynamic, but Tucci Cash, I hesitate to use the term alpha. because it is not, like, that's not really a thing, the whole alpha dog. But she was in charge of this relationship. She had the followers.

She was the mega influencer. She was the one back then as Instagram was exploding. And he was sort of riding her success, right? So he really kind of blew it with her, I think. Like in one of the documentaries, someone, I can't remember who it was, said, like, she is the top of the food chain for dating. Oh, yeah. And like, I kind of get that.

Like, if you're Ash Armand and you're a jigolo, like, yeah, that's, you can't, you're not really going to, I don't know where you go from there. But when they broke up, it really, it kind of, it kind of messed him up a little bit. And he was continually chasing that going forward. Yeah. I mean, if you will. So Tutsi Cash made, she was a extreme. successful still is.

Influencer, and you know, she also was in the adult entertainment industry. Her following was huge. For all intents of purposes, y'all, in that world she was a boss. Listen, she had the wealth. So they were, again,

if you will, when he came into her life, she made him even more relevant, popping even more. They internationally traveled all the time. And, you know, she ignited what, if you will, his 15 minutes from Gigalows. She elevated him to a level of not just fame, but to access, you know, to the best parties, the best things. Like I said,

travel and all the expensive and fabulous lifestyle. She helped provide that for him. And like with most people that you get, Jada, you know, it happens quick. And, you know, then you start to feel like, okay, this is maybe who I am, this is a part of our life. And then when it starts to get taken away from you, it can certainly have some effects on your mental health. Your identity, as you thought it was, gets stripped away. And so all these people that love you, you think, are now gone. And this is the thing that, yeah, this is the thing that happens a lot with reality stars because you are an obscurity in one minute. and then you're on this show, you never know how it's going to do, but then all of a sudden you get this following and then you have this fan base and then your social media is going crazy.

And, you know, you are for all intents of purposes and that you are a celebrity. But like anything, famous fleeting, people are fickle, you know, after you're no longer featured or we don't see you or, you know, moving on to the next thing. It's a hard thing to wrap their brain around. And I really felt like that was a lot of what affected Akshaya when Tucci and him broke up. He didn't deal with it well. It was even accounts that because they still ran in the same circles, you know, and there were times that he would threaten guys that would be dating Tucci. And so then you start to see you kind of get that little side of him,

that little dark side, that's not very zen, you know, she'd moved on and he's still threatening guys that she's with. And if you saw her in either documentary, you could tell about her to me that she's really over him and his ways, especially toward the end, she gave off the thoughts that he was trying to control her or, you know, she wasn't with that, y'all. I mean, Listen, not having it. Not having it. Like you said, she was the boss, and she does not want someone who's trying to control her. And then he was left sending her walls of text saying, oh, baby, please take me back. And she was like, nope.

So at that point, I mean, famous fleeting, looks are fleeting. So now it's 2017. It's 2018. Akshaya, like all of us, are, you know, he's aging. it's like it's harder to stay in shape so there are accounts that he starts you know hitting the gym a little harder and starting to do steroids and of course what do we know about steroids and what they do to our moods these right yeah and it seemed to me like that was the tipping point for him and it wasn't you know extreme he didn't just completely crashed out, but he definitely, in my opinion, entered a bit of a downward spiral and really

needed to redefine himself. He ended up dating one of Tucci's friends who, I think you have a picture of her. I do. Tia Evans. There she is, y'all. And you know, you have to wonder, he probably knew about Tia before because she's friends with Tucci. Who knows if he was trying to make Tucci jealous, but Tia said, hey, you know, this guy asked me out and, you know, went to Tucci and said, do you mind if I date him? And she was like, I have no problem with that. You do you do that. Best of luck to you. So that he dated her for, I think, another two years. Yeah. After his, you know, he started getting huge. And I found it so interesting that he went from like this. I mean, he was, like, obviously, very in shape, like, you know, six-pack, like, super duper in shape. But he went from that to, like, monstrously muslly. Huge. Yeah.

And I think some guys think that's going to make them more popular or that's going to be the difference. And he was chasing the wrong thing. It was definitely the wrong thing. I mean, he started to freakishly look different. And he was like the Hulk. Right. And that's not, you know, that wasn't his thing. You know, that's not what made him popular.

And I think in his continued pursuit, his obsession with not letting it go and to make sure he stayed relevant and make sure he would get this content to women and, you know, that they would appreciate love. I mean, here he is in those days. I mean, you see, y'all, he just, you know, starts to look kind of huge and not as the ripped leaner. you know, it was just a different vibe, right? And so, and I find that unfortunate because, like I said, it is not a typical in that world. You know, you're chasing what's almost like a drug. And then there was that also piece where he'd gotten into that. He'd also gotten into, like we said, he did mushrooms and he did that even back with his mother. But then there were also, he started to increase his partying drug and substance abuse. There was string. there were ecstasy, there was alcohol, there was mushrooms. And add that to the steroids. And like you're starting to build up chemicals in your body that are going to affect your behavior. And as he's on his downward spiral, this is when he meets Hurlene.

So and the other thing that neither of the documentaries really talked about so much was that he met Herlene right as the pandemic was. ramping up. So maybe we should talk about her lane. Talk about her background a little bit. Absolutely. Absolutely, y'all. Beautiful, beautiful woman. Sadly, did not get in our documentaries that we mentioned. And like I said, we're going to list that so you guys can, if you haven't, go back and watch both of them so you get both accounts. But beautiful woman. And so I thought, first of all, we're going to give you some background on her lien. And I'm going to talk about how they actually connected because there's some conflicting things. There's some conflicting stories about her. So let's talk about Helene, like you said. So as what we know, Herling was born in 1991.

She was younger, definitely younger. She almost shares a birthday with Sean, actually. Really? Yeah. She was born April 22nd, 1991 in California. Sean was born April 27th, not that same year. But yeah, almost she. shares a birthday with Sean. Nice. Okay. Okay. Yeah. But such a different upbringing, like a much more. I mean, so some similarities though, right? I mean, he has, actually I had an Indian mother and American father. She was one of three children. She was the youngest. She was the baby. We could talk about the dynamics of the baby sister, right?

And her family was Indian immigrants. Her father was an aerospace engineer. and her mom had two master's degrees. So, like, her family was super duper, stable, structured, and loving from everything we have seen. Like, there have been, it does not seem like there were any built-in issues with her. They called her happy her lean because she was always smiling. And something else I learned in my research was that her middle name is Core, K-A-U-E. you are. And that means princess. But here's the interesting fact. In the Sikh tradition, she was Sikh, her family's Sikh. In the Sikh tradition, every woman born has the middle name

core. If you are Sikh and I am wrong, please reach out to me and correct me. But that's my understanding from the Reddit, the Sikh Reddit that I lost myself in. And if you are a male seek you are given the name sing which means lion i don't know you that that was kind of a fun fact i like that is a fun fact yeah definitely um slide in the comments and let us know but she was brilliant like she to me like like you have ash and um there was no real discussion of where he went to college um like like a formal education or anything like that we know that he he had a he had a teenage son and he had a girlfriend. So, like, he did have, like, those sorts of things.

But Hirlene had a very strong tradition of pursuing academic greatness. She graduated from Temple University, which is, that's pretty impressive, with a bachelor's degree in biological sciences. And then what brought her here was she was going to come to UNLV, University of Las Vegas, to continue her education. Yeah. Yeah. So that's how. she got here um i mean you saw the picture of her like she was she was she was gorgeous right i mean um she she did some modeling um her she had a sister some she had a a niece um her brother

as a doctor yeah um but she had she had some self-confidence issues it seems like i'm not here to diagnose anyone um but it seemed like you know know, she definitely had some, some, um, problems with, like, she thought her appearance wasn't up to snuff. Um, so, um, and I guess she had problems, maybe meeting people. She felt like she wasn't fitting in. Who knows how much of that was true and how much of that was just, you know, her perception. Sure. Um, but she joined the gym. You want to tell them about her experience in the gym? I love reading about it. Like, I can imagine this woman hitting the gym and becoming obsessed with the gym, someone single-minded like her?

Yeah. So, yeah, she, like John said, she struggled with self-esteem issues and fitting in, you know, or feeling like she fit in, you know. And so she did become a fitness enthusiast. She started going to the gym. And there was a tight-knit, tight-knit community at this gym. her friends there really talked about how kind-hearted she was, beautiful she was, her sparkling smile. But she still had nonetheless, she struggled with shyness and kind of finding her way.

And then these were her people. So it was in this pursuit of, you know, getting herself in the gym and building her confidence at that, during that time, before that time, and even some during this time, she had bouts that she suffered from depression. And so her and Armand or Akshaya, they connected via Instagram. But despite that, her gym family was her family, and that's kind of where she found her confidence. Now, there were some accounts that she had been suffering from a brain tumor. Then some, there were also some alleged thoughts that, no, it wasn't brain. It was a thyroid tumor.

Either way, she had an illness. And then through finding herself with this community, working out or whatever, you know, I guess she had, I don't know if it was remission or because she even stated there were sound bites in the documentary where she spoke to the group and addressed them and thank them for their support. And she spoke out about how it had been a rough time for her. She had actually had to go through chemo, but she was doing better. And this is where around the time she and Akshaya Ash, you know, that's synonymous, meet up. And they meet on Instagram, on social media. And though they had, like he said, they shared Indian heritage. Their backgrounds were vastly, vastly different.

And I feel like, and it's not really stated outright, but I felt like his allure was the fact that this woman came from a very established family. She came from financial means. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so you have to realize by this, absolutely, by this time, he's struggling. You know, he came up. Through his money, we talked, we read about that. Like, somehow he was making, I feel like I read one snippet that said he was making like upwards of $20,000 a week doing his, but he ran through it. I don't know.

Mushrooms are probably expensive. I don't know. They're probably more than the mushrooms we buy at the grocery store. I'm guessing. Obviously. Pricey as heck. But like he ran through his money. So he needed the funds.

And this was perfect. she she slid into his his DMs in Instagram right has anything ever good ever come from sliding into a person's DMs don't do that

never do that I've done too I've seen too much true crime never do that but I it seems like they had a connection for sure and I think he liked her

it's not clear what the nature of their relationship was but she that was the time also that she was pulling back from the gym and not spending as much time there so she like she went and became a person she went from you know they called her

they called her 40 water like the number 40 water because she lost 40 pounds in 30 days I don't know what the water thing is but that was her nickname like you see videos of her and they're like how you doing 40 she's like working her ass off at the gym so cool but um so

she went from that to she became a personal trainer she helped she like taught youth fitness at the gym and then at a certain point she started pulling back the man who ran the gym whose name I can't remember right now

I'll look it up but in the various documentaries he uses aliases which is really weird but I found him on LinkedIn which I thought that was interesting but he was obviously he obviously loved her so much like he was absolutely in awe of her

and you could tell how heartbroken he was you know like he was sad that she was pulling back and like was you know he found her very inspirational he's like always there with her in the videos like like I don't think there was anything going on I would like I don't know

doesn't really matter I don't think there was but whatever but like they were just super duper close but she started pulling back from the gym and then she slide you know she slides into Ash's Instagram because he's the spiritual healer, the Zen master, and she is looking for some kind of healing. I don't know what that was. It could have, maybe it was related to her tumor, the thyroid cancer, possibly. We don't really know, but something led her to him

and he jumped on it. Oh, yeah. Yeah, he jumped on it. Yeah, he jumped on it. You know, and he happily told her, listen, I can help you. I can help you with the tumor. I can help you with your depression. And, you know, we're going to do the mushrooms together. And we're going to rebuild your neural pathways with mushroom. Which I am not here to poo-poo, by the way. I've heard great things about mushroom therapy.

Like for people who have PTSD and stuff, I think that's amazing. But I think... It feels like he was over-promising because he was, like, she needed something to help her. Right. And he promised that he could help. And I don't think he was the right person to help her. No, I mean, account say, I mean, you know, he told her that he was going to do all of this. But in all sincerity, he was not qualified to do so, had not done anything like this.

You know, this was just him, you know, basically saying, yeah, sure, you know. And again, like John said, you know, we're not clear. the nature of their relationship. Someone that just put it in the box of escort client and no, more accounts. Say there was a little more to it than that.

Absolutely. I mean, he denied to his girlfriend, Tia, he was dating Tia at the time. So he was dating Tia. He had her, he had her lien as a client. So he denied that it was a physical relationship. It was more of a I don't know. I don't know

what you would call it. Like an Eastern medicine. Yeah, he was going to heal her. And as a matter of that. It was her spiritual guide. Right, right, right. Spiritual guide or a healer. And also it's notable to add that he and Tia had started to,

relationship was crumbling because of the fact that he was continuing to do his escort to spend time of clients. He felt like he needed to continue to do that, you know, trying to get that money, though he did try to build his social media present, and he had started to try to then send out, he was still sending out the risque content that he thought that his female fan base wanted. And then he was also putting out the content on the healthy, holistic lifestyle, things that he did, and products that he used. So it seems like a combo of things, kind of like, whatever was going to hit. And he still was indulging in being an escort as

well. And so we don't know. Now, one thing I did note, and for now, we're going to eventually get into the actual night of the incident. But some of the things that made me believe that whatever the nature of their relationship was, because she had come prepared, the night that she came for the incident, prepared to docks fit. Yes, for his chihuahua, which makes me think about something a little different, but we'll get there. So I won't jump ahead. And he was packed. There was, he had his packed suitcase. He had his tickets. So, um, there, we'll talk about this, you know, as part of the crime, but like the idea that he packed his bags to run away. I don't really buy that. He, he had planned to go on a trip, like, I don't

know if he was going to Miami or something, but he would, he had definitely had the trip planned. And she was going to be there to babysit his dog. So like, you can tell it's more like a, a, It felt more like a, I don't know, like a friendship. Friendship, yeah, definitely. They went on that spiritual retreat together. So they like got very close. They went to, oh my gosh, where'd they go? Zion National Park, was it Zion, which is short distance from here.

It's like, it's like three hours drive from Las Vegas. Totally cool. People love to go there for their, like, spiritual stuff. They went on a spiritual retreat. They had an amazing time. They came back. He reported back to Tia. that they had a really amazing time

and that he had helped her lean with breakthroughs about, you know, previous traumas and things in her life. So it seemed like maybe he was helping her. But their relationship was definitely progressing. And oh, the other thing that I don't know if I mentioned this yet, but it was right as the pandemic was hitting. Like right as we were in dead center of lockdown. So they met in April or May or like maybe May of 2020.

And if you're, if you haven't blocked out, 2020, like most people happily have, May of 2020 was pretty dark. Like the, the numbers of, you know, COVID infections were spiking and people were confined to their homes. And he was going a little bit stir crazy, it seemed. You know, he was, like, confined to his house and, like, experimenting with mushrooms and working out at home. And he also had the the Hurlene thing going on. So I feel like we always talk about like the psychological impact of the pandemic and how bad that was for people and especially kids and stuff. But it seems like it probably added to the whole thing that that happened then as well. Yeah, I definitely feel like that was definitely a contributing factor.

Definitely worth noting what time frame we're in. So the time of the incident, you know, if they met, they made, when April, May, 2020 time frame, the incident happened in July. Sadly. On my birthday. It happened on my birthday. Oh, no. Gross. I know.

I know. July 15th, 2012. Oh, no. Okay. Yeah. So that's the day she came over to watch the dog. Yeah. I don't want to make this about me.

It's not about me. But I just, I will never forget the date of that incident because it's on number day. Yeah, yeah. And I think part of the tragedy is this woman didn't know this made very long. Three months, two months. Yeah, yeah. So now we're going to talk about the actual incident. And as John stated, took place on July 15th, 2020.

Herlene went to Armand's Las Vegas residence, his lit-level town home on Blackstone Ridge Court. That means anything to anybody. Sadly, y'all, that would be her last. His girlfriend at the time, we had told you about Tia, he had asked her to leave that day. And there are counseling he said, particularly he wanted her to leave because Helene had some dark energy and um that he didn't want her around he wanted to be alone with her um so that he could help her that's an account one account i don't know that's true um tia does speak of willingly leaving and staying at a hotel that night to get and being so confused she was like

what is happening why are you speaking to me this way right like he was super mean to tia um when they i think they had broke they had broken up and he was was like you got you got to move out and she was like dude it's a pandemic i can't move out right now what are you talking about but he was super mean to her on the night when he was like you got to go so i want to be i want to be alone with her lean we're going to have a moment yep yep so she left and she stayed at a hotel that night um and so they said the m casino the lovely m casino yes so her apparently her story checked out she was never a person of interest, though

there's some things that tried to make her one. And no, she never was by the police never had noted her as a person of interest. And so those theories were debunked, but they're out there. Yeah. So the evening

they had engaged in a spiritual ritual of sorts and they took the psychedelic mushrooms as they had planned to and lit candles. They prayed together, and they settled in to watch the movie Avatar. Avatar.

And at some point, the night, that scene, which sounds like a perfectly nice date, turned into an absolute nightmare. Like an indescribable nightmare, and that's coming as anyone who has listened to our podcast before, we have described some, I mean, we don't really go into too much detail in like the indescribable nightmares. But this one was probably the most horrific scene, one of the most horrific scenes that we'd ever heard about. It was unbelievable what happened in that house that night. Very, very brutal. So, trigger warning. We're going to talk about some of her, the injuries that she sustained that took her life. And the reason that, you know, we want to talk about it's because

again, I don't think, you know, the way that they talked about the case, particularly in these documentaries, if you are like myself and really didn't, I don't know that it made international national news. I'm sure it did. I didn't see it. And I mean, during that time frame, we were all homes. I don't know how I missed it. But if somehow you missed it and you stumbled across this on these documentaries, you know, you need to know. You need to know. the brutality of what happened here. You know, it wasn't, if you, you know, it's trying to portray it's like a crime of passion or like a snap.

The brutality of the way this woman was murdered was noted to say that it couldn't have, we don't know what it was. I'll say we don't know what it was, but I think that it needs to be brought up how brutally she was beaten. And to be clear, he was enormous. Like, at this point, he was a giant hulking roid monster, like six foot one giant, I mean, I want to say he was a royd monster. That doesn't, that's not really fair. But he was like a very, very huge fit guy.

And he was like a five foot three, 125 or so pound, give or take, woman. And, yeah. So I guess we'll start with his 9-1-1 call. So in the morning around, and we'll talk about what happened before the 911 call in a minute, too, because that's interesting as well. And it only came out in the documentary. But he called 911, and he essentially admitted to this crime, to murdering her. He said, this is going to sound insane because it is insane. there was a struggle. I temporarily lost my mind.

He claimed that she attacked him and he fought her off, which is really hard to believe given like their size disparity, but, you know, whatever. But the, you know, so he requested, he requested both police and paramedics and the 911 operator, channeling their wonderful training was like, okay, well, I'm going to keep you on the phone now and we're going to we're going to do CPR so he did CPR on her and he he can be he can be heard on the phone doing the CPR or at least making it sound like he's doing CPR and he was that when the when the first responders showed up um they um they found him doing CPR and um but they realized quickly that she was gone like and had been gone for a while yeah one of the things the they said was that like

I'm just going to say she had been gone for a while. Like, this was not something that had just happened. The condition of the body let them know that she had been gone. Yeah. The people that, like, the first responders said that they had never seen a beating that brutal. And I feel like as a first responder, that's crazy. That's crazy, y'all, because they've seen some of everything. I mean, so, yeah.

there was that and um there were notes uh that um her face was black and blue and swollen um and then you know lots of blood um and there was splatter um bruising candle wax found in the hair and you know we mentioned that they had lit candles and this was part of their their night and And part of this, I think part of this healing ritual with the candles with the psychedelic mushrooms and the, you know, the whole thing, they found two candles nearby with bloody handprints, ceramic statue, a black shirt in the room that was splattered with blood and it looked as if a violent struggle had occurred amid the supposed spiritual session. And this is, this is accounts from a paramedic, Captain Darren Loops, that had kind of detailed the scene and what was found. Then they had immediately asked that Koubiat or Akshaya Ash, step aside so they can attempt to resuscitate July. But the severe injuries to her face. they'd ask him, you know, how does she get the black guy, the facial injuries?

And he responded, she attacked me and I attacked her. And if you saw the accounts, because they actually did have the footage in the documentary, you do kind of see where he's kind of not with it. He seems not. not with it like like he doesn't understand what's just happened here um he asked the the uh the cop you can see like the body they show the body cam and he says to the cop like is she going to be okay right and the cop is like we'll have to see yeah he said we're going to take it to the hospital we're going to take her to the hospital yeah and ash says um i i i pray for her to be okay

and the cop is like oh okay we're going to detain you now um we're going to take you down to the we're going to we're going to take you in for this so and you notice that he said you going he said you know listen I'll go you know and he said I did this that was he actually said that to the the paramedics I did this I will wait for the cops I need to pay for this so when it comes to the trial that's very important he he you know volunteered a confession yeah I mean We'll talk about the case itself. Other things that I thought were interesting, okay, that before the 9-1-1 call happened,

Ash made a phone call to Bradley, his co-star from Jellos, and still friends. They remained friends after, and apparently to Brace as well. And Bradley actually came there on the scene, and he was trying to, he assessed the scene, but he was trying to confiscate any guns that had happened to be there. He got rid of the guns. He got rid of the drugs. And there was evidence of a cleanup as well. So the cops found that there was, like, in the washing machine, they found sheets that

matched the sheets that were on the bed, there was blood in the washing machine, there was blood in the sink. So it was clear that someone had tried to clean up and this was not brought out until a documentary. So it's not, it seems like he just came forward and said this as a part of the documentary and probably the documentary team was like, tell us more. But that's crazy. Like it is, it is crazy to think that he did not get charged as an accessory to murder after the fact. It's not clear what he took. I mean, yeah, I mean, like a plethora of things. And the cops actually talked to him.

He was leaving. Yeah, and he was like, I don't know what happened there. Yeah, he just like lied. Yeah, totally lied. And he rolls off. You see that in the footage. And then he's on a documentary accounting all the things that he did, which got to note, they do say Bradley is a heavy drinker.

And I did notice during that documentary, he was, well, he's known to mumble, but he's also known to mumble when he's been drinking. It's a lot of like stirring and mumble, you know. Yeah, he seemed like he'd been drinking. I agree. Definitely. And I am certain because when Brace also spoke about, now he didn't get involved in moving anything or anything, but he was visibly emotional. Needed a minute before he could speak. So what he witnessed really bothered him.

And so I kind of think, even with Bradley, the best way he could cope with what he saw, what he witnessed. And Bradley, you know, he has his marine background. I'm sure he went into soldier mode. I need to, you know, do this. But perhaps the drinking was his way of coping. Y'all, it was quite a scene. And that was. Yeah, I can't even imagine.

No. Without duty of seeing that. Absolutely, right? And so from there, y'all, let's talk about the actual case itself. So we talked about the scene. Okay, so John, I wanted to get your thoughts on the way it was handled. I noticed that this was based off what I saw on the actual documentary. you know, I try to do some deep diving.

Seems to me that they were so quick to want to do a press conference. Yeah, that was weird. It was weird, right? To really kind of to jump in there with that, you know, being him that was semi-famous, if you will, to come out like that when it was very new, they were still investigating, It just seemed premature and very, very strange.

I mean, he had just been taken into the police car. It just really, really strange. And they, so they gave the conference, the press conference right away, and they did not know who the victim was. Right. Like, they assumed it was domestic violence, which it was, to be fair, it was absolutely domestic violence. But they assumed that the victim was,

And they didn't know what Tia looked like until they saw a picture of her and they were like, this is not Tia because these two women don't look at all alike. But for hours, people thought that it was Tia who had been murdered by Ash. They didn't really know about Hirlene. So that was interesting. So coincidentally, there was a, Ash had this friend, acquaintance, this lawyer who ended up being friends with him. It's the weirdest part of the documentary to me, man. like this, this lawyer lady, I can't give her name, I don't remember it a second, maybe you can look it up while I talk, but she, so she points out a few really important things, like the fact that

they really seem to have done a very cursory investigation of what was going on. I guess taking into account that one of the Jigilos had taken the guns and the drugs out of the scene and messed with the scene, but she points out that they didn't do a very good investigation. They jumped to have the press conference. They didn't even know who was murdered at the time. So it seems to me like that was because they realized quickly that he was a celebrity of sorts and they wanted to get ahead of it, I guess. I'm not sure why they did that so quickly. But they did announce that it was in the press conference. They said that he had murdered his girlfriend, which was, you know, Tia. And obviously he did not murder Tia.

Yeah. So that was crazy. But he was carted off. He was charged with open murder as, as happens. So, yeah. And his trial took place in about a year later. So he was carded off to CCDC, no bail, because he was deemed to be a threat, which I think is reasonable. Yes. And, yeah. Yeah, he was put on trial for her murder. Yep, yep, yep.

So it was high-profile criminal case in Nevada. Like you said, Nobel, over the next year, the case moved kind of slowly, and I'm sure that was because we were in the midst of COVID. Yeah. Rather than go to a jury trial on an open murder charge, which could potentially have brought a life sentence, Armand chose to take a plea bargain in 2021. So in September 2021, he pled guilty to two felony counts of voluntary manslaughter and mayhem. Now, I just want to make sure I'm not getting ahead of myself. No, I think we covered all of the things that, you know, that made sense to talk about at the scene, how, you know, they came out quickly with the press conference, the idea that things were not handled necessarily in the way which they should have.

I don't think they rushed through the investigation. That was noted. And you're right, the attorney, that was his friend. Yeah, she, yeah, did mention of that. So this plea deal was negotiated with prosecutors, which dramatically reduced to potential penalties. And John, you can talk to this even more than, of course, I can, but it says that it's voluntary manslaughter in Nevada applies

when the killing happens in the heat of passion. Under extreme emotional disturbance, lacking premeditation, The mayhem is a charge that refers to prominently disfigureant or disabling a victim. And that reflects the grievous injuries that were inflicted. And he definitely could have gone to jail for the rest of his life for sure. The fact that he was offered a plea bargain, I think, is in some ways, a mercy to her family because they would have had to sit through God knows what. in a trial, rehashing the details of what happened.

So I think in that way, it's good. But he pled down to manslaughter with mayhem because of the horrific nature, horrific violent nature of the crime. And his lawyer asked for four years in prison. And the judge was like, nope, that does not reflect the severity of this crime. crime, the beating, the horror of it all. So in the end, he was given between eight and 20 years. And with time served, he could, he would be eligible for parole as soon as 2028. Yes.

And her family has said, we're going to be there to make sure that we can do everything we can to make sure he doesn't get bail. And he gets that, he serves that full 20 years. He'll be 47 years old. in 28 um so um it to me it seems like a very light sentence i complain about light sentences a lot i feel like um i often see sentences that are too harsh for certain crimes and too light for others and this is definitely a nothing sentence he's at high desert state prison um which the third episode of the uh documentary cleverly states is in the high desert. I swear to you, that's how it starts. It's like, high desert prison is in the high

desert. Yes. Yeah. Um, but he is there and, uh, to me, um, that is where he should remain um, for the rest of his life. Of, of course, his friends and family are hoping very much that he is, uh, paroled, given his, uh, the fact that he had no prior, no prior violent, he had no prior violent history um but given all of the accounts and and the victim impact statements from her family you know i i don't really see him getting out in 2008 but i do know that we will live to see this man get out of jail oh yeah he will be out for sure and um yeah that's that's the tragic part i also want to mention um sadly how fandom sometimes can't skew people's moral compass

or even their ability to fully focus on what's just happened here. So something that I wanted to mention also, Ash had a tremendous female amount of support from his fans. So much so, y'all, that they started crowdsource funding, GoFundMe's, if you will, to help him with his case, to send him money,

which blows my mind because as a woman, you know, certainly, yes, you could have appreciated what you saw on television or whatever, but if you'd follow the case at all and to see how brutally this woman was beaten and how tragically and horrifically she left this world, a young, beautiful woman that, I mean, would have been, it was a sense. senseless death, that you would get behind and support that. To me, I find deplorable. And it just goes to show, you know, sometimes the incorrect lens that fans look through. You know, it's like, you know, two things can be true. You can have at some point, you know, thought that this was a great guy, Or, you know, you appreciate his character. Keeping in mind that everything you see on TV is not real, even if it's under the

guy at the reality TV, there were statements like, you know, there's no way he could do that. He would never hurt anyone. Oh, all of his interactions with the women. He was so kind and so gentle. And this is someone that, you know, these women don't know. And, you know, I just wanted to mention that. Because, you know, that's the aspect of the whole thing with, you know, celebrity.

Oh, it is also, I did want to know, totally different case. But he was also named y'all in the Sean Diddy Cohn's case. He was actually one of the escorts that were hired for the freak-offs with Cassie. His name was mentioned in addition to. events. So there's that. But I just think it's a shame that, you know, another woman would support, even if, you know, even if it was a bad mushroom trip and the fact that he had steroids in the system and it was a blackout, the violent nature in which he, you know, unaligned this woman, I don't see how anyone can get behind that. And certainly not send money into

court. I do not understand that. They raised, I mean, they raised a few thousand dollars toward his defense. And, um, and I know that his family approached, uh, Tucci Cash. Yeah. And also Darren, um, Darren who discovered him back in 2011. And they were both like, yeah, no. No, we're not supporting that. We're not supporting that. And there was never, um, in the, in the documentary, they do try to imply that other people may have been involved, but all of those, I will say none of those theories has ever gone anywhere. There's no evidence that I've seen that anyone other than Ash was responsible for this. It seems like it's like an Occam's Razor situation. He is, he's really the only one that was there and the only one that could have done it. So,

it comes back to that he did this whether or not he was on mushrooms or whatever um i don't care you know because of him this woman is gone you know her family um you know has lost a beloved daughter sister you know her sister was pregnant during the trial and she never got to meet her niece nephew, and you have to keep in mind, like John said, one of the things when I thought was a great despair, the fact that her brother was a doctor and when he got to look and review some of the autopsy information. Just, y'all, just unbelievable. One thing also to note, her family mentioned that they had to have some extensive reconstructive surgery done to her face. because they wanted to have an open casket if that gives you any insight.

And so, y'all, again, it's one of those things, you know, we gave you the background on Akshaya, a.k.a. A.K. Ash Armand, we wanted to give her lean, her story, you know, how sweet she was. as women, sometimes we do go through times of feeling less than or having issues with self-confidence or, you know, self-worth, mental health is a real thing, all these things play into, you know, and then reaching out to someone that you find that you admire, that you find extremely attractive and that pays you attention and all these little things kind of became factors. to the story. And it's just so tragic and so sad. And so we'll talk a little bit. Like I said, he remains blocked up, make it out as soon as 228. Don't believe that he will. Some of the public reaction as the case unfolded, a lot of the blogs and stuff, lots of bloggers and bloggers have picked up on it and given their thoughts. My thoughts, and John, you can speak to yours, was that though it was a really compelling case, I found it to be tragic because at some point I actually was a fan of the show, it's actually a fan of his, to see the fall from grace and then to see something so tragic. And this poor young woman lost her life reminds me that everything that glitters ain't gold, y'all, it's just not, you know.

Yeah. And we talked a lot about how he didn't have a, like a violent past per se, didn't have. You know, he was never arrested for domestic violence, but there were definitely warning signs in his behavior, as Tucci Cash will tell you, between, you know, heavy increasing drug use, you know, his inflated ego, his obsession with attention, this obsession with clicks and likes, and those things that really mean nothing at the end of the day, right? his control issues, his anger issues, threatening people. Like, there were, there were definitely signs that this person had a darker side, like you said earlier. Not at all to imply that, like, no way her lean would have known anything about that. Absolutely not. And even if she did, like, no shade on anyone who, you know, doesn't notice the warning signs when you're close to someone. It's hard to notice this.

But there were definitely, you know, it wasn't all just Ash, the peaceful healer, Zen guy. Like, he definitely had a dark side. We all have a dark side. But he, you know, between like controlling, you know, we always hear with these words, controlling, possessive, thin-skinned, jealous, stuff like that. These are all warning signs and things to look for in your own relationships and your friend's relationships. And it's hard to accept, you know. It's hard to accept that someone could be capable of something like this. I don't, I mean, I don't know that many people are capable of what he did.

But, you know, just always important to keep an eye out for these things. And that's one of the reasons we do the podcast, right? Raise awareness, point out these warning signs. And hopefully, you know, maybe there's someone out there that hears that. And so it's like, oh, maybe I want to get out of this relationship before it goes too far. You know, I see these these problematic behaviors. So that's kind of our hope. That is.

That is, you know. And honestly, this cautionary tale, I hope that, you know, it makes you thoughtful and mindful when you meet someone, particularly, and there's another element to it, you know, when someone is, because there's one thing that we didn't mention after she had. had, you know, passed away. They found an envelope where she had on the front of it. Akshaya's rent, it was $2,700 in there. There's also an element of, y'all, when there's someone that you just meet, that is so needy and that, that, you know, is asking you for all of these things and money and, you know, and, you know, it seems to good.

Red flags. Red flags. If it seems to a good, be true, it absolutely is. And so, yeah. So this, this, I hope that it's brought, you know, a different side to this case. I hope that we did our new diligence in letting you know a little more about Arlene, the victim. And also with, you know, understanding the background story on Akshire or Ash Armand and some of the, Sometimes how, you know, people now because of social media, you have influencers, you have reality TV, you can get famous relatively fast and also those implications of being on top of the world a day and tomorrow, tomorrow the next day, you know, no one cares. That's real, there's a real impact on people when that happens. And so. On your brain.

On your brain, on your mental. Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, just some things to think about. But as always, guys, thank y'all so much for tuning in. I would love to encourage you to comment if you're watching here on YouTube. If you're listening on the podcast, leave a review. But let us know your thoughts on this case, your thoughts on our commentary on the case. We'd love to hear from you.

And John, do you have any closing words before we say good night? I think that's it. So you can follow the Sins and Survivors podcast where we cover missing unsolved domestic violence cases here in Las Vegas. You can find us at Sins and Survivors.com and, like, everywhere you get your podcasts and we're on Instagram. So, yeah, and we would appreciate you taking a look. And always, always want feedback, always want feedback from people. So, yeah, reach out to us and let us know what you think. And thank you for having me.

Thank you for thinking of us again. And I'm so sorry, Sean couldn't make it. I know she really wanted to. I know that Sean is also making some amazing content and doing the Lord's work, as you all do with highlighting those victims and getting those stories out there. John, I'm honored to have you back and would love to continue to do things with you and John in the future so you guys look out for that. This is not going to be our last time working together.

Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. So, yeah, guys, please, if you have not, please check out. Since Survivor's podcast, he's told you where to find them. I will put that also, I will have a pen comment so that you'll know. And if you haven't yet, over here to let it actually go ahead and hit that subscribe button. Give us the thumbs up on this video. Make sure you please comment and let us know what you thought of the commentary.

All right, guys. Thank you for watching. Thanks, everybody. Bye. Thank you. Bye. Thanks for listening. Visit sinspod.com slash subscribe for exclusive bonus content and to listen ad-free.

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