Sins & Survivors: A Las Vegas True Crime Podcast - True Crime and Paranormal Festival Recap

Episode Date: July 27, 2024

We recently attended the True Crime and Paranormal Festival in Denver held at the Westminster Marriott, and we wanted to recap and talk about all the fun times we had, the new people we met, and the people we REconnected with. It's such a great event filled with advocacy, education, true crime, and some education, and we recommend you buy tickets for TCPF 2025 being held in Boston! We'll be there. #TCPF2024Let us know what you think about the episodeDomestic Violence Resourceshttp://sinspod.co/resourcesClick here to become a member of our Patreon!https://sinspod.co/patreonVisit and join our Patreon now and access our ad-free episodes and exclusive bonus content & schwag!Apple Podcast Subscriptionshttps://sinspod.co/appleWe're now offering premium membership benefits on Apple Podcast Subscriptions! On your mobile deviceLet us know what you think about the episodehttps://www.buzzsprout.com/twilio/text_messages/2248640/open_sms Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/sins-survivors-a-las-vegas-true-crime-podcast--6173686/support.

To listen ad-free, visit Zinspod.co slash subscribe. Starting at $2.99 a month, you'll also get access to our exclusive bonus content episodes when you join through Patreon or Apple subscriptions. Thanks for supporting the show! Hello, and welcome to our non-subscriber bonus episode. Hey everyone. Hello. So, we wanted to take a moment and drop a bonus episode for our subscribers

and talk to you a little bit about the true crime and paranormal festival that we went to, I'm going to say last weekend? Was it last weekend? No, the weekend before? Oh gosh. Yes. Last weekend. July 14th?uly weekend is july 14th yes 13th 14th in denver yes and we're going to talk a little bit about the experience it was

our first time doing a podcast festival as as podcasters as podcasters and this is not just for our subscribers i want to say that right this is not just did i subscribers. I want to say that. Right. This is not just, did I say that? You did. You said it again. I said it again? Yeah. Oh my God. This is why we are scripted.

Yes, we wanted to do a bonus episode, not just for our subscribers, but for everyone because we came home so jazzed after the festival and we were just talking about it again today. I'm still jazzed. And John was like, hey, maybe we should just record so we can kind of get it all out there and promote the fact that Boston TCPF 2025 will be here before we know it. Buy your tickets now. They're selling fast. They are selling fast. We say that because we bought them already.

Yes, we did. So they are selling fast. It's going to be July 18th through the 20th in Boston. In Boston. In Boston. On the... Which shore? You told me.

Noth Shaw. I think it's Noth Shaw. No, I don't even know. I think it's Noth. Noth. Noth. Noth Shaw. I am from Boston.

Have I said that before? John is from Boston. Yeah. So I'm excited. You're just tuning in. Yep. If you've never joined us before, you're probably very confused. You're like, this podcast is not well-named.

We will not be covering a case right now. This is just a bonus. We won't be. I mean, I guess we'll be talking about it. We might be talking a little bit about a bunch of cases because we did hear a lot, a lot from so many wonderful people, so many passionate creators who are out there advocating for victims, advocating for families, trying to change the true crime landscape. And we were just so excited to be a part of it. It was amazing. It was so incredible. So many great people.

So why don't you tell the people out in the world, in podcast land, about your panel? Because Sean was on a panel. I was on a panel. Lainey Hobbs, who is one of the masterminds behind the whole TCPF. Lisa being the other one. Lisa being the other. And I'm sure there was so many folks that worked so hard to bring this all together. But I got to reach out to Lainey. I know that the panel was live streamed. So I'm hoping that there is a recording of it somewhere. I'm hoping because we'd love to share that audio with you because it was such an incredible experience. We had some of the most amazing podcasters in the business. We had-

Who was there? Tell the people. Haley Gray, who is a podcast researcher, and she has her own podcast researching course that you can take called- TCPT. Yeah, no, TCPT. True Crime Podcast Training. Yes, the True Crime Podcast Training. Actually, I've talked about the course before i believe on the podcast it was incredible we learned so much from being a part of it so we had hayley gray we also had the

team behind navigating advocacy they're amazing um whitney and melissa whitney and melissa do so much for families they go on searches they um do um i think they call them honking waves where they like you know stand on the corner with signs and just try and support families they're just out there doing so much good work and helping so many people and again they're super smart you know working so hard to make sure that true crime content continues to improve so we had them on the panel. And lastly, two of the biggest true crime superstars. Are you talking about yourself? Yes, myself.

I was there as well. And then there's another big name. The team behind I Think Not. What? Ellen and Joey. Ellen was not on the panel. Ellen was on my left the whole time. That's amazing.

It was really on the panel. Ellen was on my left the whole time. That's amazing. It was really, really amazing. Ellen and Joey, they have so much passion and compassion for people, and they just talk so much about how- If they happen to hear that, they can take that, that passion and compassion thing. I like that. You can have that for free. So the topic of the panel was ethical storytelling and being mindful about the language that we use and using proper terminology for things because

we don't want to re-traumatize people. We don't want to stigmatize people. So that was basically the topic was how there are a lot of phrases we use in american english that are either inherently violent idioms like shoot you an email i'll take a stab at it or have come from some of the ugliest parts of american history and are rooted in racism and that we should just erase from our vocabulary um you'd be surprised how many uh phrases like what was the one we talked about cakewalk cakewalk has racist origins yeah so that that was and then also when you're when you talk about people you want to be careful not to stigmatize them so just kind of choosing not describing where someone lives as like uh the ghetto it or you know calling someone an addict or

other words first for sex worker you, those kinds of things we talked about, and just being respectful for families because you know they're listening. And if you truly want to help them, you want to be respectful. So it was just an incredible panel. It came together beautifully. It was wonderful. I was so honored that Haley and Melissa and Whitney and Ellen and Joey all agreed to be a part of it. And like I said, I'll talk to Lainey again and we'll see if we can get that audio because I really would love to share it with all of you.

That would be amazing. Yeah. We could tag them, everybody in it. Yeah. They can share it. Yeah. And then everyone can learn from it because I think there's something for everyone in there, even if you're not a content creator.

Yep. So, yeah. I mentioned kendrick lamar at one point you did i did kendrick lamar out there dropping truth bombs he is musical truth bombs um so uh what do you want to talk about next the second one on our list, I want to leave till the end because it was the final session of the weekend. And so we'll talk about that in a minute. But we did go out with the TCPT folks, with the team behind True Crime Podcast Training. The website, by the way, is crime podcast training.com just as a reminder all written out and we really recommend that if you're considering starting a podcast

or if you're just interested about how the process works or if you want to do podcast research for other podcasts because there is there are podcasts out there who can pay you and they will pay you for your research so so if you want to do that you should definitely check it out but we went with the um uh alumni from the uh from from the podcast training which was awesome and hayley and andrea on andrea's 30th birthday yes should i say it was the 30th should we should we take that out in post that's all good yeah she's very young it was amazing we kind of had an am i the asshole moment because we were waiting for a table large enough to seat us all. And the people who had that largest table in the restaurant were taking their sweet time watching UFC fighting. And even though their plates had been cleared and their bill had been paid, they were just loitering there in the restaurant.

Refilling their iced tea. While we were standing there salivating waiting for them to leave. Starving. Yeah, that was tough. That was great. And then didn't it turn out that our server, she's a True Crime fan? She was, and they gave us free

appetizers, which was nice. Oh yeah, that was nice. Yeah, so they made it right. So shout out to the BJ's by the Denver Marriott? Yeah. So they made it right. So shout out to the BJ's by the Denver Marriott. Yeah. I wish I knew exactly their address, but great, great staff. And it was a great dinner. Yeah, it was good.

I talked about Melissa and Whitney. I kind of want to gush about them some more because they are just incredible. And it was so great seeing them and spending time with them and then what other panels did we see oh my gosh we saw so many the first one we saw was actually about a netflix documentary that i watched the first episode of i think there's like three episodes in the documentary it's called the program cons cults and kidnapping and i watched the first one by myself and i was like john i want john to watch this with me so we got to see the panel with ashley from that's so fucked up podcast with two of the filmmakers that well because it

was a documentary so there was the filmmaker katherine and then one of the uh women who when she was a teenager was actually a resident in the program and the documentary is about i guess what i would call a reform school but it was just a horrific um torture device for teenagers who allegedly you know couldn't go to regular school or were committing such horrible heinous acts that they had to live in a prison-like and repressive environment. It was awful. The youth who lived there were tortured, psychologically tortured. So it was just, it was great.

I'm glad that Ashley had them on their panel and you could learn more about what went into making the documentary and what the women's experience was when they were younger. And it really was pretty messed up. It was really scary. I mean, I hadn't watched the documentary. I still haven't actually watched it, but I am going to do that. But what I heard shook me that this actually existed. I had no idea.

Existed and parents paid money for it. Unbelievable. It's terrifying. And then we had our creator, Mixer. That was all Friday. But then the keynote, Saturday morning, not a dry eye in the house, Sarah Turney

talking about her sister, Alyssa. And if you haven't heard that story. Voices for Justice. You have to listen to Sarah tell the story herself. She tells it over. In the session, she told it very quickly. She hit all the main points. Shared so much about her sister and her experience.

Sarah, we love you. If you're listening, Sarah, we love you. You have our support. It was great getting to know you better, we love you. If you're listening, Sarah, we love you. You have our support. It was great getting to know you better and chat with you. So we can't wait to see you again at, actually, our next thing is AdvocacyCon, which is coming up in Indianapolis in March.

So we'll see you then, Sarah. And if you're listening and you're not Sarah, on the off chance, then you should go listen to- Most of you are not Sarah. Most of you are not Sarah. I mean, maybe your name is Sarah, but you're not Sarah Turney, on the off chance, then you should go listen to most of you are not Sarah. I mean, maybe your name is Sarah, but you're not Sarah Turney and that's okay too.

And if, if that's the case, you should go listen to Sarah Turney's podcast and listen to the first season. Um, definitely an amazing listen and you, you will not believe it. Mm. The next thing we went to, I believe, was Arlene Harbison, Leon Laurelis' niece, and Bethany Hassel, Vladek Hassel's sister, together with Haley Gray and Kristen Seavey from Murder, She Told.

And they were just talking about the new project that they worked on together where they made a guidebook for families and how to work with the media and podcasts when you are a victim of a horrific situation like Arlene and Bethany are. You all, we shared Arlene's episode about Leon and her podcast, The Box in the Basement, on our feed that she does with her partner, Leah. And we've shared Vladek's story before, but you can always find out more if you search. Vladek has been missing for a few years now and bethany would love to get some leads and get some answers on that just like arlene would love to have answers about leon so this again was another very moving session because there's no way to go to pc tcpf and not be moved by the stories shared by families and advocates was the next one we went to um the laura norton yeah all right yeah that was also an awesome one go ahead yeah the next one we went to um the laura norton yeah all right yeah that was also an awesome one

go ahead yeah the next one we went to was um with laura norton and uh dr amy michael who i was too intimidated to talk to i know i was so intimidated i kept seeing them and i was like i was like we rode in the elevator with dr amy and i was like hey you're also a podcaster you're a scientist laura had a book come out gosh earlier this year called lay them to rest that is which we have both read we have both read it's an incredible piece of non-fiction about um the story behind ina jane doe and how she worked with dr. Amy and other forensic scientists, forensic artists to help identify Ina Jane Doe. There's a ton of good stuff in there about the science behind all of that work.

So that was fascinating. Yeah. So they were able to talk more about some of the techniques that are used in identifying unidentified decedents. Yeah, that was really cool. This is another one that I made a note that you went to that I didn't get to go to. Oh, yes, the one about the Denver airport. That was so much fun.

It was with Justin from Generation Y and John Lorden. That was really fun. I did not know what to expect. I had no idea what the deal was with the Denver airport before I went, but now I know. This was an example of one of the paranormal type, right? Yes. We lean towards the true crime side, but there are paranormal sessions as well. Lainey and Lisa made the decision to kind of split the podcast um festival in half so the next year there's going to be a true crime version and there's

going to be a paranormal version called behind the veil so there'll be a separate paranormal one this but this year so yeah so this was one of the paranormal sessions about the Denver airport. What is one thing you remember from that? So, so many things, but the, when the Denver airport was built, apparently they built this luggage moving system underneath it. And it was going to be just a,

like a very complex web of like not moving sidewalks, little conveyor belts, conveyor belts right and it was supposed to be a highly efficient way of getting luggage on and off of airplanes and and what have you and it was like extremely expensive incredibly expensive and did not work at all because it turns out that there are constantly changes and there are gate changes and so it just wasn't something that was actually viable but the the tunnels are still there so they will like drive around the tunnels basically and move luggage around that way underneath the airport but um one of the things one of the conspiracies not sure why is that there are like many levels underneath the denver airport that the denver

airport is a um like a fallout shelter for rich people so when i thought you'd say hell mouth it might be a hell mouth too but it went like when when it goes down that the rich people are going to go there immediately to the airport and uh yeah they're gonna go to the airport and live in this underground uh bunker hey okay type thing good luck to them yeah we wish them the best and the other thing was the if you look at the overhead shot of the uh airport so the way the airport is designed it's designed to accommodate a high volume of of air traffic as you might expect even more so than like you know harry reid is pretty it's high volume but you're going to be coming from the north to south the east or the west so you can have four planes landing at any

one time in denver one from the north one from the south one from the west so if you look at it from overhead and you kind of ignore some extra lines in the it looks a little like a swastika so so it looks sort of like oh i see so um but i'm with justin and what justin said was like i'm not sure what the conspiracy is here like if i'm not sure if that's meant to convey to Nazi aliens that they should land here. This is the airport they should land at. It was not clear.

Interesting. There are also I'm not sure if this is really a conspiracy but there were when we were walking around the airport leaving, did you notice the gargoyle? I did notice there was a gargoyle. So there's an east side gargoyle and a west side gargoyle, I guess.

I'm not sure. Oh, and they are in luggage. It's like they popped out of luggage. Yes, yes. I did see that. And at one point there was a talking gargoyle. I think... I feel like we had the conversation about the talking gargoyle while we were walking around.

And how the gargoyle used to talk to people and now it doesn't really talk anymore. It just talks like every twice an hour or something. It's like an animatronic. Weird. It's not a real talking gargoyle. Why would they put that in the airport? It's just, as you would say, it's not a real clown. It's just a person dressed as a clown.

It's not a real gargoyle. It's just a person dressed as a gargoyle. real gargoyle it's just a person dressed as a gargoyle so yeah that was really fun i really enjoyed that session that's awesome um oh i missed this next one with sarah tourney and julie murray you may i you missed like the first part of it when yeah uh yeah so sarah and julie murray did a session that was very specific to some of the online harassment they have faced over the years. And it's actually, I really enjoyed that session because I had seen Sarah and Julie at CrimeCon in Las Vegas in 2022. And I saw them, that's kind of when i realized how important ethical true crime is and i it never would have occurred to me that sarah and julie who were dealing with such serious situations would be subjected to such terrifying harassment just for basically existing and having bad luck

like and for being related to to a missing person yeah to yeah to people who are missing yeah i still i do not understand that i i mean i understand what's happening but i i just i get a hobby yeah get a hobby get a life or as julie would say you know work on your empathy you know yeah um so that one was really interesting yeah they're if you ever have the chance to hear sarah or julie talk they're amazing speakers they're they're so engaging and they've they just open their heart out and they just share a heart up and they just share so much out of their life so then the next one we went to um we were late for this one, the many faces of Lori Dan. Yeah.

I did not know anything about Lori or this case. Me neither. It was Nina instead from Already Gone and Gary Howard. Gary and Nina did a great job telling the story of Lori Dan, a young woman who seemingly went through some kind of, she started showing signs that she was having some kind of mental breakdown. She was really struggling and the people in her life were either ignoring her symptoms or they didn't know how to help her.

And it sadly had a tragic end. Yes. As many true crime stories do. So Nina covered this in one of her episodes, and we highly recommend you listen to it. Yeah. It's a terrifying story that happened in 1988. There's a school shooting, a fire. It's called The Life and Rampage of Laurie Dan.

So check it out. And we're not going to spoil it for you. All right. I know you loved this session with Defense Diaries. Oh, my God. I had a really good time in this one. I didn't really know anything about the Karen Reid trial. I only knew a tiny bit.

I mean, I knew a little bit about it. I kind of knew the broad strokes, but I was not really following. We have a neighbor, actually, who was following it, who has been dying to talk to me about it. Because she knows we have a podcast. She's one of our subscribers.

She's awesome. Maybe she's listening to this. Oh, maybe. So I didn't really know much about it and um but i certainly learned um bob motto and uh and allison really took everybody to school about that case that was fantastic i thought that was so interesting yeah and it's so great seeing them together to debate things yeah they're so good at that yeah i love how he'll be talking and she'll jump in on him and be like uh actually that's not right yeah it's so much fun to watch

they're so smart yeah yeah so that was great yeah so we talked about the car read trial um what else do you want to the big showstopper. Oh my God. So the final session of the festival was called I'll Take the Stairs with Ellen and Tara. Yes. And if any true crime fans out there know what happened with Ellen and Tara. More like if any true crime fans out there don't know what happened between Ellen and Tara at Obsessed Fest, you want to say 2023? Yeah, it might've been early 2024.

It might've been the spring. Oh, maybe. But I'm not positive. But if you don't know, I, you know, I hesitate to say Google it because you're going to get a really,

no, don't Google it. Yeah, don't Google it. How are they going to know if they don't? I don not positive. But if you don't know, I hesitate to say Google it because you're going to get a really... No, don't Google it. Yeah, don't Google it. How are they going to know if they don't... I don't know. You can Google it, but I would say take anything you read with a grain of salt. A huge grain of salt. Because what Ellen and Tara did was basically dispel any and all rumors about what happened. They came clean. They took accountability for things they had made.

They explained how they became friends because of what happened. And it was beautiful. It was so moving, inspiring. It was so much about not holding grudges, not making shit up about another person's motives, and just coming to someone and saying, do you have a problem? How can we solve this problem? I want to fix this. How do we fix this?

And you guys, they, they fucking fixed it. Yeah. And they were there together to tell, tell the story and to dance and embrace each other. And it was just incredible. And,

um, Joey was there too. Always amazing. Yes. Um, one of the things i thought was really cool about that um was that they talked about how other people that were involved yes who shall obviously remain nameless um kind of fanned the flames yeah and made it so much worse yeah um but it was really it was really interesting and interesting to find out from both of them, like from both

sides, how it was just like a comedy of errors. Maybe not a comedy because it was pretty, you know, it got to be pretty hurtful and scary. But it was just, it was like a Three's Company episode. It was just a lot of cross signals and just, but I'm so glad they squashed it. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. They were so cool. And some other people in the true crime community like helped them talk and talk through it. And it was just, it's just so great to know what can be, right? Yeah. Take men out of the equation see what happens they'll spend an hour talking about the denver airport

um we had a kind of a funny moment with um julie and brooke what was it saturday we left to get lunch and we had rented a car so we left the hotel and we were driving down the sidewalk and we saw we weren't driving down the sidewalk to be clear i'm a very good driver so i'm driving across the grass so i pull the car into the curb so i jumped the curb um no we are driving down the street on the correct side on the correct side and as and walking down the sidewalk we see two of the participants from the festival julie murray and brooke and um i didn't really know brooke like i recognized her and but she's a friend of sarah attorney's yes i didn't really know her and i knew julie like i said by by reputation and because i've been in her sessions before and so we pulled over

and I rolled down the window and I asked them if they wanted a ride to where we were going for lunch and they accepted they were like yeah why not and I said get in losers we're going to Target like and it was legitimately a I don't know

it was like a three minute drive it was really short it was silly but it was also a hundred degrees and humid yeah it was warm out it wasn't too humid but't know it was like a three minute drive it was really short it was silly but it was also a hundred degrees and humid yeah it was it wasn't too humid but it was it was hot and so we you and i went and got lunch and they went over to target but we did i didn't have any they didn't it's like we had our each other's contact info we didn't coordinate so we didn't coordinate the return trip so we got stuck at the at the sandwich place for a while waiting for our order. And I just, because it was like time for the sessions to start up again, I kind of assumed they either walked back or figured something out, maybe got a ride back with another two

randos and who knows? Hopefully not. Well, no, you know what I mean? Like not rando randos, but people like us. And, you know, we got back and then then a couple hours later, we were able to run into Brooke. And I said, Hey, you know, I'm sorry that we didn't give you a ride back. And when I was talking to Brooke, she said, you know, I said, you know, and I realized that it was kind of strange, you know, that I don't really know you. And I kind of pulled over and offered

you a ride. And you took the ride. And she said, Well, yeah, you know, you know, Julie. So, so I knew it was okay it's like i don't i don't really know julie we were like uh i mean i guess we do i mean i i mean she's i know who she is we know she is and we think she's amazing yes but yeah so it was just kind of funny to think that like they all kind of I think each other may have assumed we were fine to take a ride from. And which we were to be clear, we were. But it still was kind of like a funny, funny moment. But I was also like, never take a ride from a stranger again.

Oh, my God. And when I told Julie this story later at the VIP mixer and I mentioned, you know, that I said to Brooke, you know, yeah, of course I know Julie, but it's not like we're besties. When Julie said, we're not like. You were like, I remember I saw you afterwards and we were like, we are now. We are now we are now right yeah um it probably one of my favorite memories from the whole weekend because it was just so silly and yeah it was awesome and it was it was kind of cool to like get to know new people that we never met before but it was also awesome to see some of the people that we'd seen last year that we worked together with that we

hadn't really spent a lot of time with since because we live here they live there like our buddies Kenna and Coel from Diagnosing a Killer they're amazing and it was so cool spending so much time with them

I wish our table had been closer to them maybe we should like trade seas next year um i mean who cares yeah um kenna uh kenna and coel were definitely some of the first people we talked about when we were like hey maybe we think we want to do a podcast and they gave us so much guidance and they're like you should totally do it yeah so much support it was awesome i i include eric carter landine in that as well as being one of the people who we talked to who really encouraged us along the way yeah and of

course pnw haunts and homicides oh my gosh we missed not having them there they weren't there and we were hoping to get to meet uh jake and jake and jamie from strictly stalking neither of them were there which was a bummer, but there's always next year. But we did meet Jen and her dog Freya. Yes, yes. Anyone who was at the festival saw the little dog Freya with her pink tail walking around.

Oh my God, so cute. And that was such a treat. It's so nice to have dogs around when you're, especially when you're, you know, hearing some awful stuff and, you know, I'm working through some difficult sessions.

Sometimes you just need some dog time. So, yeah, that was awesome. I am not sure if I have any final thoughts. We are very excited for the next one. Yeah. We're trying to think of what we should do for our session.

Yes. If anyone has any ideas for what you think if Sins and Survivors were to do a session in Boston, what would it be about? Because we don't know. Yeah. We will likely figure something out, but we are also open to suggestions and partnerships because we are always open to suggestions and partnerships. Speaking of always open to suggestions and partnerships speaking of suggestions and partnerships i didn't even mention natalie from the murder diaries and we spent so much time what with natalie what is wrong with us i know i

was gonna say what is wrong with you but that felt very accusatory what is wrong with us i know natalie it was so awesome meeting you and spending time with your husband tim and i'm sad that page wasn't there and we didn't get to meet her as well, but hopefully next time, next time, next time. Cause there's always going to be a next time. That's right.

We are planning, um, to spend more time with Tara as well, which is awesome. Coming up here. We didn't really talk about Tara. Well, I talked,

we talked about her in, uh, Oh, that's true. In her, her, um, session she did with Ellen, but Tara was right there during my panel, and definitely her podcasting course was the inspiration for me pitching that idea for that panel.

So we love Tara. And you should definitely do her podcasting course as well. Yes. She's doing it again. Yes. Or listen to her show, The Batty Club. And why not both? Do it all. Do it all.

Look up all these people that we've talked about. Listen to all their podcasts. Learn their stories. Share their stories. That's right. There's so many that we left out. We already know we did. So if we did, we apologize. We apologize. I think that's all we have for today

but we had a great time we're so excited for the next one yeah thanks for listening to this we do appreciate you yeah let us know what you think was this too rambly it's gonna take me so long to edit this i'm gonna edit it down to three minutes do you want to say the thing um is it appropriate to say the thing? I'm going to say the thing. What happens here happens everywhere. Even Boston. Especially Boston. To be continued... to listen ad-free. Remember to like and follow us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and Threads

at Sins and Survivors. If you're enjoying the podcast, please leave us a review on your podcast platform of choice. You can contact us at questions at sinsandsurvivors.com. If you or someone you know is affected by domestic violence or needs support, please reach out to local resources or the National Domestic Violence Hotline. A list of resources is available on our website, sinsandsurvivors.com. Sins and Survivors, a Las Vegas true crime podcast, is research written and produced by your hosts, Sean and John. The information shared in this podcast is accurate at the time of recording. If you have questions, concerns, or corrections, please email us. Links to source material for

this episode can be found on our website, sinsandsurvivors.com. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the podcast creators, hosts, and their guests. All individuals are innocent until proven guilty. This content does not constitute legal advice. Listeners are encouraged to consult with legal professionals for guidance.