Sins & Survivors: A Las Vegas True Crime Podcast - True Crime Conversations: Robin Warder, Nina Innsted and John Mattos (Bonus Episode!)

Episode Date: December 24, 2025

For the month of December, True Crime creators are getting together for conversations about podcasting, true crime, and the nexus between the two. We’ll discuss creating our shows, behind-the-scenes moments, fears and hopes, the cases that have gripped us, and more.In this conversation, we discuss: How we got into podcasting, our passion projects, what we have in store for 2026, our favorite holiday traditions, and also things you might not know about us! Enjoy this conversation and be sure to check out the rest:Jessie (Love Murder), Bob (Buried), Joshua (Somewhere in the Pines)Javier (Pretend), Kristen (Murder, She Told), Shaun (Sins & Survivors)Patrick (True Crime Obsessed), Josh (True Crime Bullsh**), Eric (True Consequences)Gillian (True Crime Obsessed), Alvin (Affirmative Murder), Lanie (True Crime Cases with Lanie)Aaron (Generation Why), Lucy (Wine & Crime), Kristen (Murder, She Told)Amanda (Wine & Crime), Josh (True Crime Bullsh**), Andie (Love Murder), Charlie (Crimelines)https://sinspod.co/105bonushttps://sinspod.co/105bonusTranscriptCheck out our patreon if you want to see the video version! https://sinspod.co/patreon. You can see it at the ad-free tier!Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/sins-survivors-a-las-vegas-true-crime-podcast--6173686/support.Domestic Violence Resourceshttp://sinspod.co/resourcesClick here to become a member of our Patreon!https://sinspod.co/patreonVisit and join our Patreon now and access our ad-free episodes and exclusive bonus content & schwag! Get ad-free access for only $1 a month or ad-free and bonus episodes for $3 a monthApple Podcast Subscriptionshttps://sinspod.co/appleWe're now offering premium membership benefits on Apple Podcast Subscriptions! On your mobile deviceLet us know what you think about the episodehttps://www.buzzsprout.com/twilio/text_messages/2248640/open_sms

To listen ad-free, visit sinspod.co slash subscribe. Starting at $2.99 a month, you'll also get access to our exclusive bonus content episodes when you join through Patreon or Apple subscriptions. Thanks for supporting the show. Hello, and happy holidays. We realize this isn't our normal release day, but this is the second in our two-part series where John and I sat down with some friends from other podcasts. We're releasing this one on Christmas Eve, only a day after our missing at the holidays episode,

as a bonus for our listeners. In the first of these episodes, I talked with Javier from the Pretend podcast and Kristen from murder, she told. And we had a great conversation, so make sure you go back and listen to that one if you missed it. In this true crime conversation, I got together with two longtime podcasters who are very well known in true crime, Nina instead from already gone, and Robin Warder from The Trail went cold.

We talked about our passion projects, how we got into podcasting, what we have a in store for 2026, our favorite holiday traditions, and even shared some things that our listeners might not know about us. You'll definitely want to take notes on Robin and Nina's passion projects. I know I'll be going back and listening to them. They sounded really fascinating. You can listen to Robin's podcast, The Trail Went Cold, at sinspod.co slash the trail went cold, and you can find Nina's podcast, already gone, at sinspod.co slash already gone. Once you're done here, head over there and give them a listen. I know you will love their work.

So without any further delay, here's the conversation we had. Let us know what you think. Email me at john at sins and survivors.com or Sean at shan at sins and survivors.com and we'll be back next week with another episode. Happy holidays, whatever you celebrate, our awesome listeners. And as always, we remind you what happens here, happens everywhere. Hello, everyone. You're probably wondering who this is or whose voice is coming out of your podcast app. Well, my name is John and I am with a podcast called Sins and Survivors. If you're not one of my listeners, welcome. And I am here with two of my lovely co-hosts and we're doing a podcast collaboration. So I will let them go ahead and introduce themselves. I guess let's go in reverse order by how long we've been podcasting. So I guess, Nina, you would go next. I'm Nina Instad. I'm host of the Already Gone podcast. I'm a Michigan-based podcaster telling stories about Michigan and the Great Lakes region.

I'm Robin Warder. I'm host of the Trail Went Cold podcast. I cover cold cases and unsolved mysteries. At the time of this recording, I'm only two months away from my 10-year anniversary of a podcast, and I'm based out of Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. And I'm like 10 months away from two years. So that's not true. Actually, We passed two years, finally, but congratulations. Congratulations. Thank you. Yes, it's been a short but exciting road. So I guess you want to start up by talking about how we each got into podcasting, like you said. Robin, you want to start us out since you are the senior podcaster here?

Sure. I've told this story many times, but it bears repeating. I was originally hoping to start out as a YouTuber way back in 2013 when there were very few podcasts. when there were very few podcasts around, I pondered the idea of doing a YouTube series called the Unsolved Mysteries fanatic because I was a huge fan of the TV show Unsolved Mysteries. And I literally dressed up as Robert Stack in front of the camera

wearing a trench coat and I would talk about some of the cases that were featured on the show. And I would jump back and forth with original clips from the Unsawed Mystery segments where I would talk about the facts and analyze them. And we launched it. We released our first episode during, the summer of 2013, and within about a half hour so we received a takedown notice from

Cosbro Mure Productions for copyright infringement for using their footage. That company is notoriously anal for not wanting people to use their footage. So we tried to explain that it fit under fair use because it wasn't just footage. There was footage of myself as well, but they still wouldn't let us do it. So we kind of had to abort the project for a few years, figuring out how we were going to do it. And then in early 2016, it kind of hit me, why don't I do a podcast where I can save all the trouble of appearing in front of a camera and filming all this stuff and just sit in front of a mic and record? And, of course, my good friend McGilfoot, he was an editor by trade. So he had filmed the original YouTube series and he said he would edit the podcast together for me. And I didn't know if anyone would want to just sit listening to me ramble on for an hour about unsawed mysteries.

But apparently they did because we released it within a couple months. We started getting a ton of downloads because we were lucky enough to be featured in a BuzzFeed article about aspiring new true crime podcasters. And here I am nearly 10 years later, still going. That's amazing. Back when they were BuzzFeed articles about aspiring true crime podcast. Yeah, I think a lot of the podcasts that started out back then got featured there and it turned out to be a big break. Nina, were you featured in that article? Do you remember?

I do not remember. Maybe. You should, I've been in a couple. I should. I should reach out to them and demand they feature you retroactively. Yes, exactly. Yeah, I don't. If you do that, mention me too.

I will. But no, I don't, I don't remember. I know I've been featured in a couple of articles over the years, but it's been, like you said, almost 10 years. And I got my start not long after Robin did. And I actually, Robin's podcast was one of the podcasts that I was listening to. My daughter developed agoraphobia, which is a fear of leaving the house or a fear of wide open spaces, and she wouldn't leave the house. And I had to quit work and stay home with her. And I was losing my mind being home. So I was listening to podcasts while I was taking care of her. And after a couple weeks of this, I was like, I have a nice voice. I can write a script. I can do this. It took me a week or two. but I mentioned it to my husband that, hey, I think I'm on a start a true crime podcast. And he literally came home from work that day.

He'd stopped at Best Buy and bought me a microphone. Oh, that's nice. It was really nice. Yes. So that's how I got my start, recording in my dining room because I didn't know any better. Editing using Skull Candy headphones because I didn't know any better. And that was April of 2016. And that is an expression that all podcasters use.

We didn't know any better when we were starting out. And I'm sure you'll probably say the same thing I do is that when you go back and listen to your earliest episodes, you cringe about some of the choices you made and some of the ways you talked. Yes. Yep. I know I do. And mine was only a couple of years ago. So Sean and I, Sean is my co-host and my wife. We started a couple of years ago and we went to the true crime.

podcast festival, Lainey's Festival, three years ago or something, just as attendees and interested parties. And we were talking to some of the podcasters there. And as we listened to all the, you know, all of the panels, we realized that a little background, our podcast focuses more on domestic violence-based crimes here in the Las Vegas area. and my wife worked in domestic violence for, has for many years. She did the fundraising for one of the local shelters. She wrote grant applications for them, very good at it.

And what we realized was that many of these cases had a domestic violence component, but there wasn't really any direct, there wasn't much in the way of dealing with that topic directly. So by the end of that festival, I was like, I kind of had a moment like you did where I was I was like, I feel like these people, you know, maybe need an expert in this area and you could be their expert. So I kind of, she likes to say that I bullied her into it, but I think she was on board with it. But yeah, so we, it was October of 23, I guess, for Domestic Violence Awareness Month. And I think the podcast festival was like a month before that or something. It was like, or maybe a couple months before.

It was like July, I think. So we came home and we kind of kicked around. And we were like, ah, maybe the beginning of the year. And then it got to be Domestic Violence Awareness Month. And she was like, what if we did it this month? And I was like, ah, oh my gosh, that's really fast. So I had to go out and buy microphones and all that stuff. And we mostly do audio.

Like, we haven't been doing a lot of video. We do some of this, like with our extra bonus content where we kind of talk about stuff, you know, the making of and whatnot. But yeah, we bought the stuff. We still, we're not in the living room exactly. We're in one of our extra spare bedrooms, which is fine. And we, you know, whatever, we have double-pane glass, so it's not too bad. Occasionally, like a garbage truck will drive by and we'll have to pause. So professional.

But I think we have only been featured in one very obscure magazine. And I can't even think of what it is yet. But it was, it seemed very thrilling at the time. But, yeah, so we only started a couple years ago. It is really hard getting started in podcasting. And I know that I've heard many people say that if you're thinking about starting a podcast my advice to you is do not start a podcast which that's not my real answer but there's I guess the real answer is like if you think you're going to start a podcast um for the like

for the financial aspect probably don't do that probably probably don't do that um not now if you have a time machine maybe do it like maybe go back 15 years and do it then you don't have a little more luck. But if you're passionate about a topic, like, you know, I think we are all passionate about the particular areas we focus on, then, yeah, why not? Dury hat in the ring. It's hard to build an audience, though, man. Even a couple years in, it's very slow going. We got, like, like, new subscribers so slowly, but I'm like, well, it's direction's going in the right, it's going in the right direction. So, I guess that's good. You just never know when your big break is going to come because even Nina and I, when we started in 2016, there were so few podcasts

that we weren't sure anyone was going to listen to ours. But then it just a boom happened when there was a big audience for it and they started to become very, very popular. And that's why a lot of the podcasts that started out in 2016 are still around today and wound up finding a lot of success. But of course, we didn't realize that at the time. And I think it was probably after that when podcasts started being successful that a lot of people started getting. in thinking they could make instant money. But I think now, like in your situation, you know that, well, I'm not going to expect to see a lot of money starting out. So I want to do it because I love it because it's a topic I'm passionate about. Absolutely. I did not know how to

check downloads when I first started. So I had no idea how many people were listening. And that's probably a good thing. Because I think if I'd known that like six people listened to my episodes, I would have been like, no, I'm done. But I'm very great. that I've stuck with it and I'm very proud of the work that I've done over the last 10 years. That's awesome. And did you guys feel like

your audiences exploded during the pandemic? Ironically not, when was your growth explosion? Well, my growth explosion was a couple years before the pandemic. And ironically enough, I think our downloads,

my downloads at least went down a little bit, surprisingly right after the pandemic started. And I think the explanation was, people aren't commuting anymore that they're not going to work. So I think people like stop listening to them. And some of the time, some of these people, if they were trapped at home, weren't in the mood to listen to a true crime podcast. They wanted to listen to something more upbeat. So a lot of people were expecting that, that the downloads would increase now that people didn't have as much to do. But I think they just were not in the mood for true crime at that point. Yeah. And I've seen a real shift from the episodic true crime that Robin and I do. to an interest in long form true crime. I feel like the genre is evolving a little bit and you're seeing more people looking for those

one story told over five or six episodes or stretched out to nine or ten episodes as we've seen happen a lot. But I think there's more interest in long form and I think we're seeing a little bit of a shift in what people are looking to listen to. I agree. I love listening to those. we did a four the longest one we've ever done do you guys do all episodic right have you ever done anything long form any like multi episode i have

yeah i've only done like a couple two parters and three parters but i generally do the format of one case per episode yeah i did a long form series about the oakland county child killer called don't talk to strangers and john you and i talked a little bit about that before robin joined up I am re, I've taken that series down. I have re-edited. I'm going to re-record, remaster, and re-release for the 50th anniversary of the Oakland County Child Murders. And that's in February of 26. That's a great idea because you'll also introduce it to a new audience who may not have heard it the first time around.

Right. Right. I have a question. Do you guys go back and do that a lot? Now I'm just picking your brains, but it's fine. Um, like, do you, do you go back and remaster your episodes? I am really obsessed with going back to my older episodes and like, re-editing, remastering, even sometimes re-recording things that I don't like that we did. Um, it's a long process because now we have, I mean, it's, this is the time to do it because we only have like 104 episodes. But, um, do you guys do that too? Do you go back to your old episodes and, uh, revisit them, re-release them maybe as like a flashback sometimes? You ever do anything like that? I should, but I haven't. I guess because I've got so much, don't have the time to do it and I'm too busy working on new content. But sometimes I think, well, if someone goes back and listens to one of my earliest episodes, they're probably not going to get a favorable impression of the podcast and listen any further because my early episodes were rough. I know, I think my first two had a headset, my very cheap one. So I think the audio quality wasn't that good and my delivery is bad. But that's a message I like to send a podcast listener. So if you're trying a new podcast, please try the most recent episodes because the earliest ones will not be an indicator of quality

because we didn't know what we were doing. So they're going to be a little rough. Yeah, I stuck my first probably 60 episodes, so about my first year of episodes over on Patreon so that people who really love me will listen to them. And it's not the introduction that someone gets to the podcast. But I have selected a few unsolved cases from that first 60 that I have re-recorded and re-released because they're unsolved. They deserve to be in my active feed. Makes sense. All right. So we have been given a couple of prompts to talk through. So I guess so the first one we've been given is, are there, what is the case or cases that keep you up at night and or the one you want most to be solved, which I think is not really fair because I think we want all of our cases

that we cover to be solved. If they're unsolved, we really want them solved, of course. But maybe it's better to say, like, what are the ones that keep you up at night? Well, I'm anxious to talk about my choice right now because it's currently in the news. It's the controversial conviction of a man named Tommy Ziegler, who is currently on death row in Florida for a quadruple homicide that took place 50 years ago in Christmas Eve in 1975, where his wife Eunice Ziegler, his two in-laws, Perry and Virginia Edwards, and a man named Charlie Mays, were all murdered together at the W.T. Ziegler furniture store. And it was a massacre. There were 28 shots fired. There were four or five guns found at the scene that have been white clean of fingerprints. And Tommy himself was inside the furniture store.

He was the one who called police because he had a gun. shot wound to his abdomen. He claimed that he had been attacked when he walked inside the store by multiple people, but it was so dark in there that he couldn't tell who it was, and also because his glasses were knocked out. And he claimed that he grabbed a gun from the desk because it was his family's furniture store fired off a few shots before he was shot in the abdomen and then passed out. And he came to believe that Charlie Mays, one of the so-called victims, was personally involved in the attack, was one of the people who murdered his wife. and his in-laws, and that when he fired off his gun a few times, one of the bullets hit

Mays and in self-defense, and that his accomplices killed him and finished the job because they knew they wouldn't be able to take him to a hospital. But the police did not believe this story. They thought that Tommy committed the murders himself, self-inflicted the gunshot wound on his abdomen, and killed Charlie Mays in an attempt to frame him for the crime. So he was convicted at trial. He was sentenced to death for all four murders, but because there was so much controversy surrounding this case about whether he was wrongly convicted, the execution has never gone through. So he has officially set an American record for the longest amount of time spent on death row. He's been there 49 and a half years. He's currently in 80 years old and

very poor health. But they recently did around a DNA testing, which seems to go in his favor, which seems to show that he didn't kill his family, that Charlie Mays was probably involved in the murders of his family. So just this past week, right before we sat down to record this, they had a hearing where they presented the results of this new DNA testing and the evidence to a judge. And sometime within the next few months, she is going to have to rule whether or not this is strong enough to overturn his conviction and give him a new trial or release them from prison. So I'm kind of on pins and needles right now trying to wait how this is going to turn out because this has been my biggest fashion case.

I covered on an episode's number 15 and 16 of the trail went cold and have been obsessively following it ever since. Wow. Yeah. So you covered it like 10 years ago. Yes. And I even consulted with his defense investigator who was trying to get his name cleared. And she loved the episodes.

And I kind of felt that as a validation point that if the people who were personally involved in these cases are liking the episodes, then I'm probably doing something right? And it is such a convoluted case that it's very hard to, like, tell the events that took place in a coherent fashion that makes sense. But everyone who listened to him just thought that my episodes were great. They found the story to be fascinating. And I don't know if Tommy himself has been able to listen to them on death row, but I know that he's aware of these episodes and that his defense investigators sent him the transcripts. So he's very appreciative that I've been advocating for him all these years. And another crazy aspect.

of this story is that during the pandemic, he got COVID and was deathly ill on death row. He was hospitalized for a few weeks, but he's still hanging on. He's still alive, even though he's in a wheelchair and using oxygen. So I think a lot of his supporters have taken it as a sign that he will get out of prison alive at some point because he's held on this long. And how old is he now? 80 years old. Oh, my gosh. Have you corresponded with him at all? Not personally, no. I probably sure.

that send him like a postcard, but I'm hoping, though, that he'll be released and I can correspond with him outside of prison walls when he's a free man again, because if he is released, just imagine how overwhelming that'll be when you're cooped up for 50 years and the world is just a much different place and you have to adjust to everything. Yeah. Absolutely. So my case, not surprisingly, is the Oakland County child killer when I was a little girl and I'm showing my age. Ninety-six,

1977, four children were murdered in Oakland County, Michigan. One of the girls that was murdered was named Christine Mahalick

and she lived in Berkeley. She attended Pat and Gill Elementary. I lived in Berkeley and I attended

Pattengill Elementary for kindergarten, well, part of kindergarten. The case is not solved. They have never named a suspect.

They have never named a person of interest. But it's one of those things where everybody knows who did it. And they've been dead for decades. But Michigan State Police, Oakland County Sheriff, the FBI, the Oakland County prosecutor, no one is talking. And they are fighting, releasing anything related to the case.

So we're coming up on the 50th anniversary of four children being murdered and dozens of children were sexually assaulted by these people. And it's all unresolved. There's never been any official announcement of, look, we know this person did it, but they're deceased, or even, hey, we're pretty sure this person did it, but they're deceased. So I covered it as a long-form series in 2018 into 2019, and I'm re-releasing it starting at the end of January of 26, because February is the 50th anniversary of Mark Stebbin's disappearance from Ferndale. There is not a lot of motivation on the parts of the

Oakland County prosecutor, the Michigan State Police, or the Oakland County County Sheriff, they're not super motivated to do anything because it's a 50-year-old case. So they're like, we're busy. We've got these new cases to worry about, but we still have four dead kits. So it's, there is potentially DNA to be worked, but no one is working the case. And you see these cases. We've all seen them. They come to close because of a DNA break, because of genetic genealogy. You have to be doing that work for that work to be successful. and they're just not doing the work. And that's just incredibly frustrating because, like you said, we've seen so many cases get resolved in recent years, like the Austin Yogurt Shop murders a couple months ago, where they linked DNA to a suspect who've been deceased for 25 years, but were able to conclusively solve it.

So they could do it here if they wanted to. If they wanted to. Yeah, super frustrating. Is it a lack of desire or a lack of funding or both? Like, what's the? They're not motivated. So the primary suspect, and I'm not naming him, although I will name him in the series that I'm doing, his father was the chief financial officer of General Motors. And in the 70s, General Motors was like Google or Meta is today, you know, the biggest company in the world. And you just don't go after the son of the CFO of General Motors in 1977. You just don't. And there were also some political donations that were made that may have motivated people to be less interested in prosecuting him.

So it's very, there's a lot of corruption. There's a lot of backdoor dealing. It's just super frustrating. There's a blog on the case, Catherine Broad, the sister of one of the victims. She has all of the information, all of the details on her blog. If you're interested, interested in the case, I suggest you take a look at that or listen to my coverage starting in January. It's just, it's shameful that we let these, not just the four kids pass away, but what their parents and siblings have gone through. It's just awful. And their parents have got to be quite old at this point, I'm guessing. But siblings are probably like my age, your age around, you know, and they are, are any of them actively pressing for? For the case to be pursued? Yeah, Kathy, Catherine Broad with her blog, is pressing. Her family fought the good fight for years with Michigan State Police and the Oakland County prosecutor and just got shoved back down every time. So it's, you can't make, you know, we've all seen this on various cases. You can't make people do a job they don't want to do. You can't physically make them do it.

It's horrible. Yeah. So that's my case. I'm adding both of those to my list. I was furiously Googling while you were talking. I was like, major rabbit holes, both those cases. Yes. Yes. Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure. So I have one case. I have two cases. One is fairly recent, about 15 years old. But the first one, we actually covered twice once, I think like in, we only had three seasons. But once in like

2003 we covered it and then on the 30th anniversary just about a year later we actually covered it again and it's the disappearance of Camille Dardaines, Dodson. So she disappeared

in September of 1994. The reason that she came across our radar speaking of DNA, she was originally married to a man named Gary Dotson who was the first person ever exonerated by DNA evidence ever. That's why his name's familiar. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. He was accused of a rape. The woman

who accused him eventually recanted, and that didn't get them to reopen the case. Another thing where the prosecutors don't want to reopen the case, even though they have the person who accused him originally admitted that it was all made up, eventually via DNA he was exonerated, and then he met Camille. There is absolutely zero evidence that Gary Dotson had anything to do with Camille's disappearance. None. They were long divorced. and she was living in Las Vegas. So she moved here and she was involved with a fairly seedy crowd. She worked at the Crazy Horse 2 strip club as a cocktail waitress.

At that time in history, there was a lot of mob involvement. And she was in trouble with the law and she was involved with a man who was abusing her. There's a lot of documented domestic abuse in their relationship. She was actually picked up and put into the Clark County Detention Center. and she was released in September and after that she was never seen again Gary and Camille have a daughter named

Ashley Ashley's been looking for her mom for 30 years she was young at the time but she remembers growing up with her grandma coming to Las Vegas asking around where Camille lived and in her circles

like has anyone seen Camille is anyone you know so they searched for her for years and it's been 30 years now and there's never been any information on what happened to her. Interestingly, though, one of the things we have for this case is a phone list of phone numbers that Camille had. And one of the phone numbers is actually the local FBI field office. So the theory is that she might have been working with the FBI and she was working for a mob

controlled strip club. So there's some theory that the mob was involved. Her family has a website, find camille.com. You can read more about the case there. We also covered the Gary Dotson case, and that case has become our most popular episode. At one point, we had this alarming spike in downloads that we called a witch's hat that we've never seen again. And it was like, it's a mystery. I thought like some bigger podcast, like mentioned Gary Dotson and people searched and they found us and they ended up listening.

We have no idea. If anybody out there knows or has heard of that episode, I'm so curious. The other one that kind of sticks in my craw a little bit. Actually, you covered Robin in the early 300. It was the disappearance of Stephen Cocher. Stephen disappeared December 13th, 2009. He was a 30-year-old young man from Utah, Mormon, young dude, just out there living his life. Apparently, everyone who met him said he was just the nicest guy, super involved in his church, friendlies can be, always willing to help people. He had a roommate who, was nothing like him. Quoted at one point of saying, we get along well, but we're not very similar. He's Mormon, and I'm from Chicago. But they like got along well. They played softball

together. In 2009, Stephen was having trouble keeping a job, got laid off from a software company, and he started driving around between Utah, Arizona, and Nevada. And in September, oh, I'm sorry, in December,

December 13th, he drove his car from St. George, Utah, where he lived, to Henderson, where I live, only about 20 minutes from where I live. And he parked in a neighborhood in kind of the far south end of the valley called Sun City Anthem, typically a retirement community, but non-retired people live there also. It's like a planned community here. And the last thing we saw of him was some grainy vintage 2009 security camera footage of him, presumably him getting out of his car. You can't really tell, but it looks like him. It matches his height and, you know, it looks like it could be him. His family believes it was him. And after that security footage, he was never seen again. His cell phone pinged across

Henderson, our town for a couple more days. We're not sure what that's about. No one's sure what that's about. But his car was just left in that neighborhood where he had no ties. He didn't apparently know anyone. It contained a bunch of groceries and Christmas gifts for his family that were all labeled, and they never saw him again. There are extension searches in the area, and there was no evidence that he left voluntarily. And there are theories about what might have happened. People think he might have been delivering a package, possibly drugs to a house in Henderson. But there's really no proof of any of this. That's one of the ones that really, like another one where you think? Where the hell is he? People just don't disappear. This man is

somewhere. He didn't just walk into the desert because that's not a thing that people do. He wasn't depressed. Also, he was in an area where, like, to get to the desert or really, more accurately, a hiking trail, because that's what there is down there. It was like a two-mile walk. So, I don't know. The theory is that he, like, possibly knocked on the wrong door. I don't know. Some sort of delivery deal gone wrong.

We don't know. It's very frustrating. I think the most baffling part about that story when I covered it a few years ago is the fact that he went on some unexplained road trips, the days. before he went missing, where he was driving throughout the state going to all these different locations. And nobody knows why. And he was suffering from serious financial problems at that point. And buying all that gas would obviously cost money. So I think that has caused like a lot of the speculation that maybe he was delivering drugs or something he wasn't supposed to and making all these trips. Because even though he was described as a very honest law-abiding person who never

would have broken the law, but he seemed also like a very proud guy who didn't want to ask his family for financial assistance. Yeah. So could he have been roped into doing something? You ordinarily wouldn't have done, and it wound up costing him his life. Or was he doing some sort of a delivery job, didn't know what he was delivering because he was just this, you know, wide-eyed kid from Utah and then ended up knocking on this house and it all went wrong.

But you're right. He, like, took this road trip like two days before. He went and saw an ex-girlfriend in like northern Arizona and stayed with them on their ranch and had dinner with them. And then he was like, ah, I'm going to Sacramento. to meet some people. They didn't know anybody in Sacramento. And he never went there.

It's so weird. I don't know. It reminds me a little bit of David Glenn Lewis. I think that's his name. You know who I mean from Texas that ended up in Washington State getting hit by a car? Like, you can't assign any logic to it because there's nothing logical about what happened. I remember learning about that case because someone made a Reddit post about it and then they tagged me saying, Paging Robin Warder, this is the audience.

ideal case for you to cover because I'm really fascinated by cases where people travel to locations they have no reason to be at and they either die or they go missing. It's like that's the, it's two mysteries rolled into one. What happened to them and why did they travel there in the first place? Yes. I was actually on a on a road trip with Sean one time and we got to talking about like we were in like a really weird circumstance like I can't. remember what it was, but, like, if people saw what was happening to us, it would be one of these mysteries, like, why were they in that location? What were they doing? Why was there a cake in the car? Like, it was, like, all this, like, strange set of circumstances that we would definitely end up in some Reddit thread somewhere, being like, what happened to them? What, oh, my gosh, what happened? Did he just go, did he just run away? And is he just living off the grid now? Who knows? Ah, oh, yeah, I often wonder that. Like, Now that I've experienced a few of these and learned about many of them, I feel like everyone is just, oh, one or two weird circumstances away from being a Reddit thread.

Yes. I see stories like that where people go missing and details which might be completely innocuous suddenly become or ominous, they'll say, ooh, a couple months beforehand, they read a story about a fictional character who disappeared to start a new life. Maybe they were getting ideas to do the same thing when it might just be a coincidence. Well, and if they look at any of our browser histories. Yeah. Forget it. Oof. Yeah.

We all missing, then they're going to make a lot of speculation about us. Yeah. Yes. For sure. So there were a couple of other prompts. Tell the people out there what you're looking forward to in 2006. Well, I'm really excited to share that my first book, Unsolved Michigan, releases March 16th. Nice.

Amazing. Yes. I'm super excited. I'm working with the history. Press, and I was able to highlight some really important stories of unsolved murders and missing persons from all over the state of Michigan. So that's coming in March. And if you're interested, it's available for pre-order at bookshop.org or on Amazon. So cool. Well, I'm looking forward to my 10-year anniversary in February. And I usually

have made a tradition when I do my anniversary shows that I like to do a famous historical case, usually a two or three-parter. And this particular one, I'm going to finally tackle the Lindbergh baby kidnapping, which, oh, wow, a classic. Yeah, which I've always found fascinating. And it's unique in that it's officially considered to be solved because a suspect was tried, convicted, and executed. But a lot of people have figured there's more to the story that he could have been innocent or he could have had accomplices who got away with it. And there are even theories that maybe Lindbergh himself was more involved in the kidnapping than he was letting on. And this past summer, I took a trip to New Jersey. This is kind of what a

weird life I live. I went there to see WWE SummerSlam at MedLife Stadium, but then decided to do a side trip to Hopewell to see the Lindberg home and also a lot of the locations where the crime took place to kind of prepare myself to be working on this. And I'm looking forward to it because I really love digging into the historical mysteries that happened a long time ago and trying to look for fresh takes on it and find material that people haven't really talked about all that much on podcasts. You know, Robin, I have to say that something I've always admired about you is when you travel, you don't just go to a location.

You're like, what's here that I can learn about with regards to true crime? Like when we were in, I think it was in Denver, you drove up to Janelle Matthew's house. Yes. And I was like, what? But that's wonderful. And I've always loved that about you. So do not change. Oh, thank you very much. Yeah, I remember sending you a photo a few months ago when you watched the Austin Yogurt Shop murders documentary because we were at the True Crime Podcast Festival in Austin. And the plaza where the yogurt shot was was only a couple miles away. So I decided to pay it a visit. And the yogurt shop was no longer there. I think it's a tanning salon. But they did have a memorial for the four victims in the parking lot that I took a photo of. And it gives you just a weird feeling knowing that's such a horrible.

event happened in this place that now seems completely normal. So just now that this case has been solved, it makes the whole experience all the more poignant. Yes. Wow. So for us, we are looking at, and I don't know, when we're going to be able to do this, hopefully it's going to be in 2026, but for now, let's just assume it's going to happen in 2026. There are 51 people on death row here in Nevada and interestingly right around 51 weeks in the year so our plan

yeah you already figured it out what we're planning to do is dig into each one of those death row cases and find out what we can some of them are very old and there's very little information about them but the idea would be to go through and look at these death row cases and kind of cover them

one by one And I think we'll use it as also an excuse to talk about the death penalty in general and our sort of thoughts on the death penalty and how it's disproportionately applied and how it's, you know, by race and socioeconomic status, et cetera, et cetera, which you both probably know. But, yeah, so we're looking at doing a separate series. I'm not sure if how we'll release it It might be a part of the normal podcast Might be like a separate related podcast I don't know But both of us have full-time job

So we'll figure it out somehow But that's what we're trying to do anyway In 2006 Maybe you'll find your own Tommy Ziegler Your own White Whale on death row and say Ooh this case is a lot bigger than I expected I'm going to need an entire year Just to cover this one

That would be interesting Yeah yeah yeah Some of them are so old They're like from the 90s 80s. That's not that long ago. That's true. That's true. Now, Michigan doesn't have the death penalty, and the one person we did have on death row, Marvin Gabriel, was only on death row because he committed a murder in one of our parks, which was considered federal property. And we have a case blowing up in the news right now, the disappearance and murder of Rebecca Park from Northern

Michigan. And it appears that her body was found in a park. on federal land. So there's lots of speculation right now. Are her killers going to be tried? You know, will the death penalty be on the table? And I'm going to hear in Canada. Yes, given the political client, you can see that. They love their death penalty at the federal level at this point. They do. And here in Canada, we haven't had the death penalty in decades. And I covered a couple years ago kind of the case that was the major turning point. And that's when a 14-year-old boy named Stephen and Trusscott was charged with the murder of a 12-year-old girl named Lynn Harper, and they

sensed him to hang. And a lot of people thought, it turned out he was probably innocent, but they're thinking, even if he's guilty, we should not be hanging a 14-year-old boy. And that kind of played a role with his sentence being commuted and them abolishing the death penalty here. Yeah. That's so civilized. It is.

Well, they're Canadian. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's crazy to think they were still trying to hang people in 1959. Like, that sounds like something from centuries ago. Yeah, that's crazy. And I don't know. I have so many thoughts on the death penalty. It's going to be an interesting series.

We could do a whole new, we could do a whole episode just talking about the death penalty, the three of us. Yeah. Especially when, like, so many of these cases get overturned in the future because of DNA evidence and, oh, you know, whatever. Prosecutors not doing their jobs, et cetera, et cetera. Okay, so I have two more prompts.

Let's start with the fun one. So if you had to solve a mystery and you could work with anyone alive or dead in real life or fictional, so that might include a prosecutor, a forensic analyst, investigative reporter, detective, what have you. Who would be your dream team to investigate your case? Well, I have a fictional and a real life one. The fictional one, I'm going to choose Benoit Blanc from the Knives Out series because I saw Wake Up Dead Man just a few weeks, a few days before we've done. recorded this. And I kind of wish we had more inspectors like that in real life where you can just bring them into a room of suspects. They go over the whole thing in their head and then they just figure it out and pick out the killer because unfortunately real life murder cases do not work

that way, but they're certainly fun to watch Daniel Craig when he's doing it. He's awesome. And a real life one is one of the most unusual cases I covered on my podcast was the 1945 disappearance of a woman named Mary Jane Van Gilder. And surprisingly, I did that right at the request of her granddaughter, who never got to meet her, but was asking podcasters and YouTubers if they would share her story to get word out because she had never been officially reported missing at the time. Wow. And actually got a police officer named Adam Turner, who worked with the department in Shelby, Ohio, to take on the investigation, even though it was 75 years old at that point and there was nothing to work with. And he wound up solving it, believe it or not, that he wound up just getting the right tip in where he discovered her, he looked on the Feinigraib website and found a woman that was named in Mary Jane's personnel file, had a wife, Barry next to him who happened to be named Mary Jane and had the same birth date as Mary Jane Van Gilder. And he tracked down their family, used DNA evidence to figure out that this woman was Mary Jane Van Gilder and that she had disappeared.

voluntarily, started a new life with a new family, and then died of natural causes in 1990. And even though she'd been dead, he used DNA testing to figure it out. And it's like, wow, we cover so many cold cases where the police don't want to do anything. And here was a guy who solved a 75-year-old missing person's case with no evidence. And when they had the press conference to announce this, his captain said, if you're a criminal, do not commit a crime in Shelby, the Ohio, because Adam Turner will solve this case and catch you. So, yeah, if you want to get anyone to work on a working person's case, he's a guy I would tell you to get in contact with.

For sure. So, Robin, you will probably remember this gentleman's name because I think his name is Jim Smith. He was the Ontario Provincial Police Officer that got Russell Wilson to confess. Okay. I'd forgotten his name. But yeah, that's a good pick. I think it was Jim Smith. And he looked at Russell in the eye and got him to confess to murdering those women. And just you could watch the confession on YouTube. It is masterful. And he's one guy that like if I could buy anybody a drink, it would be him for how great his work is. I'm also a big fan of Joe Kenda. So I would love to work with Joe Kenda on a case. And for my fictional person, it would be Quincy for a medical examiner. Because we all need a little more Quincy in our life. Obviously.

Yeah. I've never watched that show, unfortunately. Oh, it was a staple at my house as a child. Jack Klugman. Nice. I went all fictional on my list because I'm weird. So for an investigator, I chose Adrian Monk. he is I love him I think I just I love the show I love the actor so yeah

Monk was definitely and I think he thinks like I do a little bit so definitely to work with him for prosecutor I chose Allie McBeal because I feel like she would be fun to work with for forensics temperance Brennan from Bones because she seemed to always solve cases in under 60 minutes, which I love, so she could get through a great many cases. And for a reporter, I mean, I think the obvious choice is Lois Lane. Oh, I love it. Oh, yeah.

The award winning, Lois Lane. Those are their choices. Yeah, yeah, totally. And, yeah, I don't have any real life people. I didn't want to, you know, I don't want to offend anybody with not choosing them. I'm sure I can talk with some. All right. Well, and I have to say I got everything wrong.

His name is Russell Williams, not Russell Wilson. Oh, okay. Yeah, I'd forgotten about that. Yes, so sorry about that. Cool. So the last thing I have, the last question that we came up with was, what's one thing that, one thing about you that people might not know, maybe not related to true crime? Like, maybe Robin, I didn't know you were a WWE fan, but I love that I know. know that now. It's kind of funny. I've done a lot of Q&A episodes for my podcast, so there's a lot that my regular listeners probably already know, but I'll come up with one now that I'm not sure I've shared before. A lot of people know that before I took, became a podcast where I got a postgraduate degree in script writing from Algonquin College in Ottawa. That was actually my goal is I wanted to be a screenwriter and write for movies or television and never thought I would be a

applying that to writing a podcast. And I always like to say, I don't want to call writing scripts for podcasts easy, but when you went through so many years of having to dream up fictional characters and fictional situations that it kind of felt like a break to just write about events that actually happened where you didn't have to create anything in your head. But I started script writing when I was in high school and used to write like action movies, horror movies, and they wrote about a dozen scripts, though none of them were ever published. And I sometimes get a laugh when I go through some of the ones I wrote in high school just to see how bad they are. I think once I found one that I wrote in grade 11, an action movie where I named one of the villains Mr. Wheat so that they could do a scene where the hero dropped them in like a giant band so that he was shredded and he could yell at the one liner, shredded wheat.

So that was my screenwriting expertise back then and I don't know why I didn't make millions from that. Mine is that I have a degree in history. And in the early 2000s, I actually applied to Wayne State University to do doctoral work in modern Asian history. And I submitted all of the paperwork and had plans to learn Mandarin. And Wayne State lost my paperwork and told me that I would have to reapply and resubmit everything. And I went, not doing that. And I ended up being a school teacher. Oh, how long were you a school teacher for? Off and on for about 12 years. Oh, wow. Yeah, I was a middle school teacher. So you can't scare me.

I was a middle school teacher. Yeah, that's terrifying. Sean did that for a while. Yeah, she spent a couple of years teaching middle school and, oof, English in a middle school. Yeah. It's very stressful. Wow. It's a lot of work.

Yeah. My mother was a middle school teacher for 30 years. She identifies and she retired in 2001 and is said, I'm always so grateful I haven't had to do any teaching in the past 25 years. I bet. Yeah. Man, that toughens you up, I bet. She got out just before cell phones became a thing with kids.

So right time. Yes. Yeah. And before I taught middle school, I was an admissions coordinator for an inpatient psychiatric unit. So again, I worked inpatient. psych and then I taught middle school. I don't flinch. Yes. Wow. It's fine. Just sitting here writing about podcasts and speaking with law enforcement investigators. You've got a lot of experience to oven you up. Yeah. Yeah. And also you got out before AI took over the world. The best and

worst thing that's ever happened to us as people. Yes. And I don't know how teachers do it now. I mean, I guess they use AI detectors, but. So what's your little known fact about you? Mine is so, I couldn't really think of something. I, I, mine's pretty boring. Just that, two things. Number one, I'm a part-time fitness instructor. Oh, no, good. I teach group fitness for fun.

I teach body pump, which you may or may not have heard of. It's like group fitness with marbles. So I love doing that, but it pays like nothing. So whatever. It's like my side passion project. It's like my other job besides my full-time job. Right. Your third job. Yeah.

Right. And then my, my most important. part-time job is pickleball. I play a lot of pickleball. It's alarming now. I probably play about 10 hours a week now. Wow. Yeah.

That cuts into your podcast time. It does. It seriously is kind of becoming a problem. And Sean is so, she's like super supportive about it. But I, it's definitely cutting into it. I got to rebalance things. But I don't really talk that much about it, but I'm obsessed with it. I'm always thinking about it.

So a pickleball podcast coming up in the future for you? Oh. Oh my God, that would be amazing. Yeah, we went recently to the PPA tour event here in Las Vegas and got to see all the pickleball superstars. All the pros. Yeah, it was really fun. And this is really fun too. related. I was at

Pickler, the Pickleball Gym, and I met Andre Agassi. Oh, wow. Oh, because they live in Vegas. Yeah, yeah. That's awesome. Steffi live in, uh, living, they live in Henderson. They live like right near me. Like we see at the grocery store.

In their neighbors. Yeah. So weird. That's cool. Like I, he was, he's so good. Oh my God. He's so good at pickle. Obviously, he's so good at pickleball.

I have been his for, I don't know, 40 years. like ever since he was a young tennis youth um but he was like just playing with a friend of his on uh whatever on court number one at pickler and henderson it was awesome and i like walk it to him and i was like ah hello and i get a photo and he signed my paddle and then i immediately was like ah now i had to get a new paddle yeah not gonna use that one again no yeah i'm not i'm not using that at all and the funny thing is he does have his own brand paddle he has like uh Yula has an under agacy paddle.

He was like, it's not a, you don't have an agacy paddle, huh? And I was like, it's on my list. It's on my list. But he gave me a hard time about it. Oh, that's awesome, though. How fun. So cool. Yeah. He was super nice. Do we want to do the weird holiday prompt?

Oh, oh, there was another prompt. Right. Do you have a favorite holiday tradition bonus points for weird that you would like to share? This isn't really weird, but I always do is a moment. my family. We used to live in the town of Orangeville, Ontario, but now my parents are living in a condo in Waterloo, where my brother, Phil, and my niece live. And we actually just did this tradition right before I sat down to record this, but since I often can't be at home at Christmas while they're decorating the tree, we will do a FaceTime. Well, they'll call me and then show me the

footage, and my niece will be over there, like helping decorate, because we used to decorate the tree together all the time before I moved away, but this is a way to keep the tradition alive. And every year when I visit my mother, the two holiday classics that we always watch are the Mr. Bean Christmas special. And our favorite Christmas movie is not often ranked on the all-time greatest Christmas movies, but it's considered to be one of our favorites. Have either of you ever seen Ernest's Christmas? I don't think I have. Do you remember Ernest, the comedy? Barney. Yes, yeah, Jim Varney, yeah. And my mother and I watched it in the theater. It came out in 1988, which, believe it or not, was 37 years ago. Way to make me feel old. But it involves Santa Claus traveling to Orlando to find a successor to take his place and he gets into some trouble. And Ernest has to save him and single-handedly save Christmas. It's very stupid, but I love watching it at Christmas. And I don't see it ranked alongside the classics like Christmas vacation and it's a wonderful life and stuff. But it's one of my

favorites to watch every year with my family. Wow. Let's add that. What is your favorite Christmas special or Christmas like television or movie thing that you, that you love the most? I think that's a worthy. That's a worthy. Oh, God, yes, die hard. Dyerd is a Christmas movie. It's probably my all-time favorite movie, not just Christmas movies. So I watch that every year as well. Yeah, big fan of die hard. Big fan. Yeah. So my holiday tradition that's kind of We actually haven't done this in a few years, but when my kids were younger, we belonged to a swim club. And every year they would do a 4th of July potluck.

And we thought that was boring and lame. So we volunteered to purchase, smoke, and pull 40 pounds of pork every 4th of July. And we did this for years that they changed the name of the event from the 4th of July potluck to the pork of July potluck. So we would provide all of the protein and the other families would provide, you know, side dishes and desserts and beverages and stuff. But we would, we really got excited about smoking all of this pork, pork butt for the holiday event. And it was just great to feed everybody and have everybody be happy and eating and a little greasy. And it was just good fun. Nice.

I love it. Are there any other shows or movies that you must see? Big fan of Die Hard. I am not. There's nothing particularly, like, I don't have any real Christmas routines. We usually go to Florida for the holidays. I don't know if we're going this year. We haven't decided yet, but it's, what, the sixth?

So we need to make up our mind? Because we usually rent a house down in the Florida Keys for a week. and that's our yearly vacation. Oh, it's really fun. But I don't know if we're doing that this year. So, yeah, I just, I work really hard to make sure my kids have like a really wholesome traditional Christmas with the tree and the trimmings and, you know, the... Nice.

Normal, normal, normal stuff. Nice. Oh, and Robin, how old is your niece? Do you mind me asking? 17. Oh, wow. So she's getting big. He is. Yeah. Like, you've probably seen me post photos of us together on Facebook years ago when she was just a little girl. But it's blowing my mind that she will be leaving to attend college like just over a year from now. So she grows up so fast. That's so exciting. Yes. Oh my gosh. That is crazy. That's the same age as, uh, as our son. Um, he's busy applying to colleges right now. Same thing. And he's like six foot two. I have no idea how that happened. Oh, wow. It's, I come up to like here on.

him I am not a tall man but that's all right um okay so I guess um my tradition our traditions here in this house uh as far as uh I'll leave entertainment for last but we we have several trees we have we have four but really three main Christmas trees the first is our standard tree with you know the standard um decorations whatnot from vacations and all that sort of thing. Our second tree is, it's a black tree. It's short. It's probably only four feet tall.

And it's decorated, it's been decorated for the past few years with Las Vegas Aces Ornaments. So every year we create these Las Vegas Aces ornaments. These are the ones that I'm replacing for this year. People that have left the team. Cindy Colson, we love you, but you left the team. Kelsey Plum, who I met at, who I met at Target one day,

nice lady. So the players that have left the team this year. Anyway, so I'm replacing those this weekend and we'll put them on the Aces tree. So we have that tree. And then we have a humanist tree. That one, we also make the ornaments for that.

They're like little stars. So people who are humanists who have, you know, positive impact on the world. Living or dead, doesn't matter. So we have ornaments for John Sina, who's apparently just a wonderful, wonderful guy. Chadwick Bozeman, Kristen Bell, Isaac Asimov, Rosa Parks,

like people through history who have sort of humanist ideals. So we have a humanist tree. So that was a six foot tree. That one used to be like just a little tiny tree and we were like, we could upgrade this. There's that. And then the other thing that is, I don't think it's weird. But when I tell people about it, they're like, that's weird.

Robin and I will decide if this is where we also celebrate Festivus every year. Oh, okay. On the 24th, the, and if you don't know what Festivus is, it's the holiday from Seinfeld. There is an episode of Seinfeld where they sort of reveal that George's family used to celebrate this holiday festival, right? So we have a six-foot extruded aluminum pole that we have in our living room. So we have a Festivist pole and we actually put our present. not around the tree, but around the Festivus pole. Okay.

So, yes, we have a Festivus pole. That might be a little weird. As long as you don't yell at each other like George and his family did. No, no, no. But we do. Okay. So some of the Festivist traditions were having red foods. So I make, on Festivus, I make my lasagna with the sauce.

I make the sauce and I make lasagna. That's kind of a thing we do. But we don't do feats of strength like they did on the, the episode. It's probably better now that Nate's huge. It probably wouldn't work out so well for me. But we definitely watch the festivist episode every year. That's one of the things we definitely can't miss. Along with the Schitts Creek episode, the Christmas episode of Schitts Creek. I don't know if you guys watched Shitt's Creek. Lovely show. But the Christmas episode is nice. It's already saying that I haven't watched it. And as a Canadian, I think my citizenship should probably be revoked. I wouldn't say that too loud. Yeah, you're going to get in trouble. You're probably going to get a knock on the door. I definitely recommend it if you're looking for some good, wholesome entertainment. But I think that's it.

Oh, and the other thing is on Christmas Day, normally what we do is we will see a movie and eat Chinese food. Nice. Vegan Chinese food, weirdly. Oh, okay. Yeah. We're vegetarian, but vegan's close enough. So, yeah, we'll go out for vegan Chinese food. Kind of a tradition.

And I know it must be weird for you, from our perspective, that you have to spend Christmas every year in the hot Las Vegas without any snow. Yeah, because we're from Michigan and from Ontario, so we're used to the wintry Christmases. Yeah. Yes, but it definitely gets cold here. It's like 61 degrees here today. Oh, you're poor thing. It did get into the 30s this week and it like made the news. Wow.

They're like... I think we have a high in the thirties today. This is the temperature of the water freezes. Yes. Yeah. They have to remind people that eventually the water will freeze and you should be aware of this. Yes, this is called ice. Yes.

This is what happens to water when it gets too cold. Yeah, but we never like drain our pools or anything. Like, just leave it. It's fine. No. Do you even close your pool? No. We go in the pool.

Like, we'll go in the hot tub. Like I'll fire up the hot tub. tub and actually go in it. Nice. We had a workman at our house who walked out of the utility room and looked to me and went, where's your hot tub? I'm like, don't have one. Because apparently the previous owners had a hot tub and there's a switch in the utility

room labeled hot tub. Oh. And I was like, oh, no, no hot tub here. I have a crazy idea. But maybe we should get one. Get a hot tub. Yeah. That would be super cool.

Yeah. Yes. Can you see the Northern Lights from where you are in Michigan? I have a friend who has an Airbnb in Michigan and she sent me a picture last night of, not from like several weeks ago. I guess they could see the Northern Lights a few weeks ago. So just recently we've started to be able to see the Northern Lights. I actually saw them for the first time last winter. I had never seen them before. And it was one of those bucket list things. Robin, you're further north and east. Do you see the Northern Lights? I don't think so. No. I can't recall. I've ever. having seen them. Okay. They're cool if you get the chance. Okay. I totally want to see them now.

Yeah. They were really pretty. The photos were awesome. Yeah. Anyway, that's random. Not true of crime related. Well, thank you for hosting us. Yes.

Of course. Yeah. Thank you for being willing to chat with the new podcast guy, the podcast, the baby podcast. Well, that's what's great about these is talking with the veterans and the newbies just to share our experiences and he's talking about podcasting, then it turns into stuff like Christmas tradition and pickleball. So you just never know how these conversations are going to lead. Everything turns into pickleball when I'm here.

And Andre Agassi shows up and, you know, he's going to listen to this and be like, holy shit. Yeah. We'll find out Andre's a fan of the trail when cold were already gone. Or maybe sins and survivors. Maybe he didn't know who you were when he met you. Right. That would be amazing.

That would legitimately blow my mind. and oh my gosh he could join my local pickleball meetup too I know he joins one of the other local pickleball meetup sometimes too because they have a photo with him. He needs to join yours. Yes. He really does. Yeah.

All right. Well, thank you guys for your time today and happy holidays. Happy holidays. Whatever you celebrate, happy holiday. And yeah, I'm sure we'll talk soon. All right. Happy holidays. All right.

Stay warm, y'all. Happy holidays. Bye. All right.