Sixteenth Minute (of Fame) - minisode: ai art, and why we are not robots feat jason koebler

Episode Date: July 9, 2024

This week, a bonus interview from our 65-foot-hot-dog episode — 404 Media’s Jason Koebler talks to Jamie about how we need to remind people that writers aren’t robots. Then, Jamie reminds you she is not a robot. Listen to the 404 Media Podcast here: https://www.404media.co/the-404-media-podcast/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an IHeart podcast. Welcome to Pretty Private with Ebeney, the podcast where silence is broken and stories are set free. I'm Ebeney, and every Tuesday I'll be sharing all new anonymous stories that would challenge your perceptions and give you new insight on the people around you. Every Tuesday, make sure you listen to Pretty Private from the Black Effect Podcast Network. Tune in on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. I just normally do straight stand-up, but this is a bit different. What do you get when a true crime producer walks into a comedy club?

Answer, a new podcast called Wisecrack, where a comedian finds himself at the center of a chilling true crime story. Does anyone know what show they've come to see? It's a story. It's about the scariest night of my life. This is Wisecrack, available now. Listen to Wisecrack on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Every case that is a cold case that has DNA. Right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime.

On the new podcast, America's Crime Lab, every case has a story to tell. And the DNA holds the truth. He never thought he was going to get caught. And I just looked at my computer screen. I was just like, ah, gotcha. This technology is already solving so many cases. Listen to America's Crime Lab on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. CoalZone Media

I'm not so bad when you turn up your lights, but I can be perfect all the time to make me a star, let's take it too far, and give me one moment. Sixteen minute of fame Sixteen minute of fame Sixteen minute of face One more minute of me I'm not so bad when you're sitting there on my mind. Welcome to 16th Minute, the show where we take a notorious moment or main character of the internet and remind you that they're a person and so are you. And that sucks for everyone. And this week,

we're taking a bit of an interlude. A breather, if you will. I don't know if I've ever really like properly taken a breather. It sounds like that scene from Midsomar when I'm taking a breather. Is that relaxing? See, I'm relaxing. Occasionally, for 16th minute episodes to be the right length, we will end up having to cut interviews that I really love. And today's interview with Jason Kebler at 404 Media is one of those. It touches on a lot of stuff that's been on my mind, including the reason that this episode is a little shorter than normal.

So we're going to share these interviews that got cut, mostly because I think they're instructive to what this show is about, but also to ensure that the quality of this show is staying consistent. And this interview actually motivated me to want to talk about that a little more, or at least once. Because the reality of making any reported digital media right now is, in my opinion, even when you're lucky to work with an incredible group of producers and collaborators and are paid well to do it, as I am very lucky to be, there is still a lot of pressure to produce, right? Just like make as much as possible. But if you want to make stuff to the top of your ability, At some point, this is going to be at odds, right?

Or in order to make it not at odds, you'll have to give other parts of your life up. Jason and I start by talking about a rise in AI art, but I was really pleasantly surprised that we sort of took this turn into talking about artists and creators and journalists being forced to compete and compare themselves to machines. Because that ethos, to make as much as possible, ties into all these dystopian problems that are happening around us. Journalists are losing jobs in massive numbers.

The remaining journalists are not paid enough to make up for the fired people's absence, but are expected to cover the same amount at the same skill level. And the archive of all of those journalists work is being disappeared from the internet as if the labor never even took place. And this is a tiny thing, but I cannot stand that analog media collectors were right all the time. All of my Blu-ray boyfriends were right. I was wrong to bully them for it.

I talked about this in the first episode of 16th Minute. You are listening to a future piece of lost media. I believe that. Anyone who's making anything and distributing it online, and it's a lot of us, are being encouraged to churn out content at unprecedented rates and are being told to accept that that labor can be deleted from existence if the company that happens to be your mommy needs a tax cut.

And so with this pressure to create, while being told that this creation is disposable, it feels like some have taken a very depressing message away. Why even bother to make something that you would stand by if it's just going to disappear anyways? It's a wrongheaded and embarrassing takeaway, but I genuinely think that this is part of why there is such a plagiarism issue across media right now. It's really frustrating. It's no excuse for that behavior, but maybe you've noticed it. The mindset of, oh, cool, I'll just make some shit up or steal it from someone else so I can post more because that's what I'm supposed to be doing. I, along with millions of others, watched a YouTube doc from H. Bomber Guy late last year called Plagiarism and YouTube about the proliferation of plagiarism on YouTube that spotlights a few damning specific examples.

And all of these examples were creators, which, God, what a nebulous term, I wish we need a new word, creators. All of these examples were creators who had ripped off others without credit in the interest of producing more content faster that still felt like it could be made by them. And sure, this problem has a lot of heads to cut off. Another issue is that crediting practices online seem to be worse than ever. I mean, I know early in my podcasting, I wasn't. encouraged or as beholden to provide detailed citation, and it produces problems like what we

talked about in the Black TikTok strike episode. The TikTok algorithm encourages people to replicate dances, but doesn't encourage them to credit the choreographers. And that's how you get Charlie DeMilio with a million-dollar brand deal performing other people's work that she couldn't tell you the source of. But the trickier thing here is the volume of content. H-bomber guy is an incredibly thoughtful and talented person. There's no one like him. And he and his producer usually make about one long video a year, a feature length, carefully researched and cited video a year with an eye to visuals, to pacing, to all of these things. That's why they're so good. They're taking the time. I'm not introducing a new idea here. And in an equitable landscape,

everyone would have that time. But what I'm seeing for newer creators is that the baseline encouragement is to make as much as possible in a way that's not just unsustainable if you stop hanging out with your friends in a way that is literally impossible and i'm guilty of this i'll sometimes see the output of one of my peers and be like i need to do more i'm not doing enough the problem is i don't know how that would be possible without completely cratering my life or starting to take shortcuts making the thing a little bit worse and i feel tight-chested and like i'm bitching and I'm fine. All I'm trying to get at here is that I don't know how to reconcile making the kind of quality things that I want to make with the amount that people are encouraged to make. I don't know

how I would do that unless I were a machine. And that's kind of what I think we're being encouraged to do and how we're being encouraged to think of ourselves. Produce things at the rate of a machine while remaining a discernible, vulnerable advertisement reading savant. When I think about how I would like to be able to work. It's embarrassing, right? Like, my ideal form is someone who can produce like a machine while maintaining the just relatable enough veneer of nice legs and gum disease. But more often than not, those things are in direct conflict.

It's not possible. It sucks. It sucks that we're being encouraged to produce like machines. But I'd be lying if I didn't say that at many points in my career, that wasn't a fantasy of what I wish I were capable of. Which is, ew, it's not punk rock at all. What I meant to say was, every so often, 16th minute is going to release a shorter episode of an interview that I wasn't able to get into the final cut of an episode. I am very guilty of assigning myself too much homework, which my collaborators and producers, Sophie and Ian, can certainly attest to, I'm sorry, guys.

Today, we are talking to Jason Kebler, whose work has been invaluable to me in making this show. I've been a follower of his work for years before. We originally recorded this for last week's episode about the 65-foot hot dog in Times Square because as I was observing the online reception to this incredible public work of art that was the 65-foot hot dog, there was an even more prominent strain of art discourse making the rounds in my little algorithm. So with that in mind, here's a little setup of what we're dropping into. AI images.

I know you've heard of them. Sometimes they're even called. art. And in the weeks that the Times Square hot dog was this big fixation, Facebook and LinkedIn in particular were pushing AI artworks into algorithms at very, very high rates, and tech journalists were starting to call bullshit. This story was on my radar for a number of reasons. As a listener of fellow Cool Zone Media Podcast plug, better offline with Ed Zittron plug, I already knew that Google implementing AI into its search engine had all but blown the entire website up, And as a follower of Jason Kebler at 404 Media, who was also a former editor of Motherboard

and a critical source in our Boston Slidecop episode, I started seeing reports of Facebook being flooded with fake AI images. Now, I've been seeing AI art go viral for years. People had a lot of fun with those early generators, right? And seeing the Polar Express movie-looking results. But as time went on, many were finding AI images harder and harder to identify as AI images. Recently, there was a lot of talk about the AI generated all eyes on Rafa graphic that went around on Instagram in lieu of actual on-the-ground images of Gaza, of which there were

plenty, that would have done far more to demonstrate the severity and the violence that is taking place as Palestinians are continually targeted and genocided by Israel. And then over on platforms that younger people kind of don't use anymore, Facebook and LinkedIn, in, AI was flooding their algorithms, and the images taking off were unbelievably fucked up looking. Let's throw in some music. Why not? A series of AI photos of a child in what appears to be an African rural village with these weird art projects, a see-through motorcycle, a Porsche made of popsicle sticks, and bone-chillingly, a wooden bust of Mark Zuckerberg, a hummingbird with gigantic hairy testicles with the caption 99 years of luck you will never lack money for your

trip and travels peter griffin sharing food with orphans in africa a dead-eyed jesus christ with the crown of thorns surrounded by two beautiful flight attendants one of whom is giving him a gigantic cheeseburger captioned beautiful cabin crew scarlet johansen hashtag boom challenge so many of them have this caption, could not tell you why with a gun to my head. These are kind of funny, right, but on a long enough scrolling timeline, it gets unbelievably depressing. And if they're in your feed, they're preventing you from seeing something useful, or at least made by a person. And all of this made the conversation around a 65-foot hot dog with intent made by people and the importance of public art and public art funding feel all the more relevant.

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I know it sounds like the start of a bad joke, but that really was my reality nine years ago. I just normally do straight stand-up, but this is a bit different. On stage stood a comedian with a story that no one expected to hear. Well, 22nd of July 2015, a 23-year-old man had killed his family. And then he came to my house. So what do you get when a true crime producer walks into a comedy club? A new podcast called Wisecrack, where stand-up comedy and murder takes center stage. Available now.

Listen to Wisecrack on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I asked about the AI art that is attempting to take over our social media feeds with Jason Kebler. Here's our talk. I'm Jason Kebler. I'm the co-host of the 404 Media podcast. First of all, thank you so much. for doing such incredible work. Your research into the slide cop was integral into getting us closer to cracking that story. No one has done it still. I love slide cop. Yeah, we got that.

FOIA response back like the day before we launched our new website. I was like, oh, we have to lead with that. During the same period of time of this public artwork and publicly funded artwork that I'm talking about. There is another conversation going on about the rise of AI art that is also being flooded into algorithms in certain areas of the internet. How did you first, how did this first get on your radar? Yeah. So, I mean, I've been aware of the fact that AI art exists for a very long time. It's like, you know, we sort of covered the rise of like Dolly and Mid Journey and people just sort of like generating images of like very often anime girls and then like futuristic cityscapes. It's like people either gravitate to like hot women or like sci-fi future.

Yeah, like weird screen shaver images. Yeah, like when these things launch. But I think that I first started seeing this as like a thing that was just going to flood the internet when I started seeing these images like on Facebook all the time. Yeah. And it started with, if you can believe it, like a guy in the UK who sculpts dogs out of logs using a chainsaw. He does like chainsaw art.

So it's like if you want a statue of your dog, he will make one for you out of like a giant piece of wood. Incredible. And this is like very expensive. It costs like thousands of dollars and it takes. him like weeks to do. And he like documents the entire process as he does this and is like a social media influencer alongside of selling these like wooden dogs. That used to be one of my favorite areas of YouTube was like weird art process videos. But at least it was proof that it happened. Right. And it's like I mean

these are things like you see him using the chainsaw. You see him taking like a gigantic block or cylinder of wood and turning it into like a German shepherd. And, you know, these, this is like a popular type of content online. It's like it was going viral on its own. But then, you know, one of our readers actually sent it to me because he had seen like 50 different versions of the same image, except in every image, the dog was slightly different or the man was slightly different. The guy who does this is like white, like 25 year old from the United Kingdom. And in some of the images, this man had become a woman. Sometimes it, like he had a go tea. Other times the guy was Latino. Sometimes the dog was a German shepherd. Sometimes it was like a St. Bernard. Other times it was

like a poodle. But it wasn't very obviously AI. It's like it was still like kind of realistic. So if you were just like scrolling through. It's like, oh, wow, like lots of people are carving dogs these days. They were like going viral on Facebook. So I was like, oh, like, what's going on here? And then I found this community of people on Facebook who were like documenting the spread of this type of content where basically like a viral image was being run through an AI and then was going viral itself, even though that new image was not real. Who benefits from these images being out there? I mean, I think it's just like kind of run of the mill spam. It's like Facebook has been filled with spam for years at this point. And there are people who are just like

building pages that have tons and tons of followers. And they're either selling the pages or they like find some way of turning it into either a scam or just like a spam opportunity. It's like a lot of them link off of Facebook. And then you click on the link and you get like 900 pop ups and they're all just like Google ads. So you have people like collecting, you know, their pennies from each of these little clicks. A lot of the people who are doing these are in like Vietnam, Cambodia, Brazil, Nigeria. And we know that because Facebook started making people disclose like where they are located. Interesting. If you run like one of these pages, yeah, which was something that they did like after like the fake news scare of 20

16. Okay. Well, seems to have really helped. Surely. Yeah. Yeah. But anyways, it's like a lot of this stuff is happening in places where the cost of living is a little bit lower. And so I don't think that they're making tons of money, but they are clearly making enough money that it's like beneficial for them to do it. They also seem to be sort of like sticky inside of certain algorithms. I know you've written about Facebook in particular and now also LinkedIn more recently. From what you can gather, are these images more easily sucked into algorithms than stuff that's real? I think that some of it is so weird and bizarre now that you kind of like can't help, but either click on it or like engage with it in some way, even if you know that it's AI.

And so, you know, I'm a reporter. I've been seeking this stuff out for a while. But once I started clicking on it, that's all I got. I get like tons and tons and tons of AI images. And I think that Facebook hasn't been a super relevant platform for people who are pretty online for a while. And so people don't like use Facebook that much. It still has billions of users actually. But among like journalists and comedians and people who just like use the internet a lot, I don't think Facebook is that popular anymore.

And so I know that some people like went back to Facebook when they saw that this weird stuff was showing up there. And then you click on like one image and that ends up being. like all that you see. You mentioned the algorithm and a really interesting thing that's happened is TikTok was like the biggest threat to Facebook for a long time. And by Facebook, I mean like meta the company because it was like destroying Instagram for a moment. That's why they introduced reels. And like the big thing that TikTok has is the for you page, which is the algorithm where you just like open it and you can scroll forever and you'll just see like stuff that you, that the app thinks that you'll like. And that's like not something that Instagram.

and Facebook had for a long time. It's something where, like, you opened it and you would see. There was an algorithm, but it was mostly from pages that you followed or pages that people you liked or were friends with engaged with. And Facebook launched this thing about a year ago called Recommended for you. And it's basically the TikTok algorithm, but for Facebook. I know that was a long windup, but basically what has happened is Facebook has started showing people things that are popular on Facebook.

regardless of whether anyone you know has like ever engaged with it or has anything to do with it or like cares about it at all. And that's how a lot of this stuff is getting recommended because not only are these people like posting the AI images, they then have like an apparatus to like comment, engage with it and get it going in the algorithm for lack of a better term. And then you end up seeing it. I know it's not the exact same thing. But like when there was that significant Twitter algorithm shift and all of a sudden their main characters introduced that probably wouldn't have been possible 10 years before

because you never would have seen them. I've seen two things. One, there's like a bunch of people on Facebook who can't tell that this stuff is AI. There's like tons and tons of bots and then there's people who don't know that it's AI. Then there's people who do know that it's AI but

are just like engaging with it because it's weird. And then there's like a whole other phenomenon that is happening where there are people who have heard about AI art and know that AI art exists, but don't want to be fooled by it. These are people like a lot of my parents' friends. They've like heard about AI and they're like, I'm not going to fall for it. Because I like started asking people, like, have you seen AI art on Facebook? Like, are you getting it on your Facebook? I like posted that on Facebook and then asked

people to send me examples of AI art that showed up in their feed. And so many people sent me real stuff, that they're like, this art's too good. Like, it can't possibly be real. My name is Ed. Everyone say, hello, Ed. From a very rural background myself, my dad is a farmer and my mom is a cousin. So, like, it's not like, what do you get when a true crime producer walks into a comedy club? I know it sounds like the start of a bad joke, but that really was my reality nine years ago. I just normally do straight stand-up, but this is a bit different. On stage stood a comedian with a story that no one expected to hear.

Well, 22nd of July 2015, a 23-year-old man had killed his family. And then he came to my house. So what do you get when a true crime producer walks into a comedy club? A new podcast called Wisecrack, where stand-up comedy and murder takes center stage. Available now. Listen to Wisecrack on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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I'll be mining on our 12th season of Family Secrets. With over 37 million downloads, we continue to be moved and inspired by our guests and their courageously told stories. I can't wait to share 10 powerful new episodes with you, stories of tangled up identities, concealed truths, and the way in which family secrets almost always need to be told. I hope you'll join me and my extraordinary guests for this new season of Family Secrets.

Listen to Family Secrets Season 12 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And so I think this other thing is happening, too, where people, like, don't want to be seen as being an idiot who fell for AI art. And so they have their guard up to the point where, like, that's fake, that's fake, that's fake. I saw a thread from an artist who was beside himself. You could plug your own art into an AI-driven analysis bot that would tell you what the percentage of likelihood that your own art was AI. And sometimes you would get like a real piece of work that was like, this is 75% likely to be AI. And so there's actual artists who are beside themselves having to defend what their art is, is real. AI art is like a black box algorithm.

Like you type a prompt in and something comes out the other end and you don't know exactly how that was made. And then there are all these AI art detectors that themselves are AI and themselves are like this black box that we don't know how they work. And, you know, some of them are designed by people who are trying their best and like trying to like help determine like is this real as it's not. But then there's also a bunch of like snake oil people out there making the same. thing. It's just calling real stuff bullshit because we don't know how it works either. It's just like a fake program that is also AI that is not accurate or trustworthy either. That's interesting that, yeah, you've found that people are becoming so paranoid that they're mistakenly preventing themselves from engaging with something that's real. Probably an obvious question. Who stands to be

harmed by if this continues and trending in the same direction? Yeah, I think that there is a backlash to this stuff. I don't think that people like it for the most part, like the masses. I think that the masses want to like engage with real art made by real humans that time and effort and care was put into. So I do think that what's happening is very bad and scary. Like I have some optimism from the backlash that we've seen where people are going to like specifically seek out and support human journalists, human artists, human musicians. However, I think that we're in a very critical moment now where every single platform is like injecting some version of AI into their platform and is being taken over by AI spam to some extent.

It's like Google has its, you know, AI discovery stuff. Like Facebook is a mess. Instagram has all these AI influencers on them now. TikTok is the same. I think discoverability on the internet is what is most at risk. It's like, are we going to be able to find human art when an algorithm can make a thousand paintings in one second and a human takes a week to paint a picture? It's just like humans can't compete with the output that's happening.

And so I worry that human creativity and human stuff is just going to. to get drowned out. Rightfully so in the last year a lot of talk about, you know, I hate that you have to be like human creators, but human creators who are making stuff, but they're trying to please the algorithm. So they're making a lot of stuff really fast. There's like a rise in plagiarism. There's a rise in just like, I need to have something out. I don't care if it's good. I don't care if it's anything. It's the only way to sustain. And connecting those two ideas of like, yes, there's been a huge rise in finding out that someone who presents is very genuine, doesn't actually do their homework,

outsources it somewhere, steals shit. And that's awful. But I feel like it is in response to something where it's a very cynical way of being like, how else do I compete when there's an AI technology that can, at least on its face, think it does what I do and reach a larger audience. Like, what the fuck do you do?

Not plagiarize other people, but like it's just, I feel like it just introduces all of these like ethical problems among human artists. I approach this from the perspective of like a journalist and a writer and someone who publishes blogs on the internet. And I think that what happened, I think it's very similar for comedians and people who make like TikTok videos and YouTubers and artists where the internet is kind of a slot machine,

like a lottery. It's like you spend a lot of time creating something and then you publish it and either a bunch of people look at it or like no one looks at it. You either sort of like win the algorithmic lottery and you get into the system that is like, here's all your retweets, here's your likes, here's your comments and like you're going to get millions of views on this thing or you're going to get hundreds of thousands of views on this thing or you're going to get like nothing. And there have been so many times where I have worked very hard on an article and talk to like a lot of people, like interviewed a bunch of people, spend a lot of time on it,

painstakingly edited it and then published it and no one reads it and I'm like oh that sucked but then like five minutes later I will see like I'll do something that I don't care about that much and it will be like a short jokey blog about whatever and I publish it and it goes massively viral and I'm like cool wish I could have made that happen to the thing that I cared about versus the other thing and so I think that's how you end up with this phenomenon that you're describing where you want to take as many bites at the Apple as possible, and, like, humans start behaving, humans start, like, doing stuff trying to reverse engineer what will work with an algorithm.

And I think that's what makes me so scared about AI-generated content is that a human might get one bite at the Apple or five bites at the Apple if they work very quickly. And the AI can take, like, a million swings at it. it because it can just endlessly generate different iterations of it. Do you have advice for people who are combating this machine, in art specifically, but also just, you know, if your work is in constant contest with AI? Yeah. So I worked for Vice for 10 years and I'm proud of what we did there. And, you know, I don't think that what we did was bad. But it was also part of like a big company

where we were like publishing lots of articles. We were, you know, trying to get people to read our stuff, so on and so forth. And now, you know, I started a company with three of my former colleagues called 404 Media. And it's, we're not going to have the scale that Vice had. Like, we're not going to have as many people read our stuff. But what we have done and what sort of like gives me hope is we have started explaining to people. to people that like in our work like hello we are human beings who are sitting at a computer typing up our little posts and putting them on our little website and this takes a lot of time

it takes a lot of effort and here's like how we do it and here's why you should support that we've tried to like give a peek behind the curtain that sort of like documents the process of like what reporting is it's not that vice never did that but it's like many of these like really big outlets have like a view from nowhere where the journalist isn't like inserting themselves into the work and and the blogs just like up here on the internet and I think that you can take that and extend it to everything it's like if you're a photographer and there's just like you're just posting photo photo photo photo photo photo that those photos might be great or the art that you're making might be great I think it's important to document

like how much time and effort and work goes into making the things that you're making and like explaining to people why it is what differentiates you from someone who's shitting out 50 million photos from mid journey or like writing a book on chat gpt in three seconds and publishing 40 of them on amazon in a week like I think that that doesn't mean that we're going to win, that we, the humans are going to win versus a sort of like tech industry and tech platforms that are not super friendly to humans. But I think that that is like the path forward. You want the work to stand for itself, but I think you also kind of need to be like, hey, working hard over here. God, that's like, that is very pragmatic. Like, I mean, essentially you have to

show, here is the log, here is my change saw, here is how it becomes a German Shepherd statue. I share the optimism that it does seem that most people want what they consume, whether it's art, whether it's journalism. They don't want a robot writing it. They trust the person more than they trust the robot. Yeah, now there's also this additional, well, the best practice is maybe to just occasionally remind people that you're not a robot. I think what you're doing is much smarter because I think sometimes I, like, internalized weird shame about my own process. Well, I think that's been drilled into artists and been drilled into journalists, too. It's like I went to journalism school, which is extremely embarrassing.

Like, in retrospect, it's like, I was being trained to, like, go into a dead industry. But, like, the thing that they teach you is, like, objectivity, like, you're not the story. You're not a part of it. Blah, blah, blah. And it's like, if you do that, nothing differentiates you from the zillions of other people who are doing the same thing. And I think that this is actually something that, like, YouTubers and influencers have been very good at. It's like, I hate to hand it to Logan Paul or whatever, but it's like he has people who specifically seek him out. And you can, I just said Logan Paul, because it's the first name that came to my head.

But it's like all of these influencers, all these comedians who kind of give you like a. peek behind the curtain and like have a personality to them also seem to be doing better than like the institution that is like we're just going to publish a bunch of kind of like wire service articles. That said, it's like such an extra thing that everyone now needs to do. It's like not only do do you have to like do the work, but then you have to like explain the work and then you have to foster a community and be beholden to that community. And it is pretty exhausting and it can come at the expensive, hanging out with your friends. Yeah.

Responding to text messages from your mom. Yeah, because you're busy querading something. Just a reminder, I'm a person. Thanks so much to Jason, and you can subscribe to 404 Media and check out their podcast in the description. Their work is so fucking good and thorough, and they're reporting on tech and the internet unlike anyone else. And also, thanks to Jason for just encouraging me to share about my own process.

I feel embarrassed. I feel naked. It will never happen again, but there it is. In all seriousness, this conversation was really useful for me. It was a reminder that it's not verboten and it shouldn't be discouraged to occasionally just say, hey, making something you can stand by takes a while. When you hear these shorter episodes, that's what's happening. I want to make sure that you're listening to information that is good and thoughtful, and I want to make sure that I don't accidentally kill myself doing it. So, thank you for listening. Try not to work until 3 in the morning and text your mom back. We'll be back next week.

Glad you're here. 16th Minute is a production of Cool Zone Media and IHeart Radio. It is written, hosted, and produced by me, Jamie Loftus. Our executive producers are Sophie Lichten and Robert Evans. The Amazing Ian Johnson is our supervising producer and our editor. Our theme song is by Sad 13. And pet shout-outs to our dog producer Anderson, my cats flea and Casper, and my pet rock bird. We'll out with us all.

Bye. Welcome to Pretty Private with Ebeney, the podcast where silence is broken and stories are set free. I'm Ebeney, and every Tuesday I'll be sharing all new anonymous stories that would challenge your perceptions and give you new insight. on the people around you. Every Tuesday, make sure you listen to Pretty Private from the Black Effect Podcast Network. Tune in on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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