Sixteenth Minute (of Fame) - oh, by the way, f*** you: liam kyle sullivan and kelly, pt. 2

Episode Date: February 27, 2025

Jamie continues her conversation with Liam Kyle Sullivan, AKA Kelly of "Shoes" fame, Mrs. Cunningham of "Muffins" fame, and an actor and comedian workshopping a show about what it all means. Bonus: Jamie's cousin Chloe stops by to explain why kids from New England had no idea Mrs. Cunningham was "doing an accent." Come to The Bechdel Cast's Oscars Spectacular Celebration this Sunday: https://www.dynastytypewriter.com/calendar-squad-up See Liam's show in Los Angeles this Thursday: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/a-liam-kyle-sullivan-show-work-in-progress-tickets-1248665595409?aff=oddtdtcreator Follow Liam: https://www.liamkylesullivan.com/ https://www.instagram.com/liamksullivan/?hl=enSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. I just normally do straight stand-up, but this is a bit different. What do you get when a true crime producer walks into a comedy club? Answer, a new podcast called Wisecrack, where a comedian finds himself at the center of a chilling true crime story. Does anyone know what show they've come to see? It's a story. It's about the scariest night of my life. This is Wisecrack, available now.

Listen to Wisecrack on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What would you do if one bad decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison or the most brutal boot camp designed to be hell on earth? Unfortunately for Mark Lombardo, this was the choice he faced. He said, you are a number, a New York State number, and we own you. Listen to shock incarceration on the IHeart Radio app, Apple, podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. It's Black Business Month and Money and Wealth podcast with John Hope Bryant is tapping in.

I'm breaking down how to build wealth, create opportunities, and move from surviving to thriving. It's time to talk about ownership, equity, and everything in between. Black and brown communities have historically been last in life. Let me just say this, AI is moving faster than civil rights legislation ever did. Listen to Money and Wealth from the Black Effect Podcast Network on iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Every case that is a cold case that has DNA. Right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime. On the new podcast, America's Crime Lab, every case has a story to tell, and the DNA holds the truth.

He never thought he was going to get caught, and I just looked at my computer screen. I was just like, ah, gotcha. This technology is already solving so many cases. Listen to America's Crime Lab on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. CallZone Media Hello, 16-minute listeners. Last call for tickets, the Bechtelcast is doing our post-Oscar's spectacular show in-person in Los Angeles at Dynasty Typewriter and on a live stream with tickets. This Sunday, March 2nd, it's going to be a blast.

We're going to be celebrating the show. We will have guest spots from three of our favorite guests, Danielle Perez, Akela Hughes, and Grace Freud, live and in person. And if you have live stream tickets and you cannot watch at that exact moment, no worries. Feel free to get a ticket anyways. You will be able to watch the show for the next week. Okay, episode time. Shoes. Oh, my God.

Do you remember? I don't remember exactly when we first saw. I feel like I remember being at your house, like in the computer room or whatever. Yeah. Now that I'm thinking about it, we either had our computer room or it was probably right before the computers made their way to our bedrooms, which sounds horrifying. So this is my cousin, Chloe, and we used to, amongst other things, watch Liam Kyle Sullivan's shoes on YouTube every single day. after school. You would have been last year of middle school junior high and I would have been a freshman or incoming freshman into high school. And that's when everything changed. When Kelly, did you know that Kelly or I guess Liam is from New England? No. Yeah. That makes it even better. Massachusetts? Oh, okay. I didn't know if we were talking about like New York, Connecticut, Massachusetts, like the whole of New Englander. Okay.

It was good people kid. Do you remember muffins? Muffins is everything. I have true word. The dog was just roaming the house. I have true word association with banana, shards a glass. Fias. Anything fire.

I know. In retrospect, I'm like, oh, he was obviously from Boston because all of his characters have like. But what I think is so amazing is I did not pick up on that at all. Right. As a 13, 14-year-old, I'm like, this is how every mother person from here talk. So why wouldn't say talk? Every mom says fire. Especially, what do you want, little Johnny?

I'm like, yeah, that's how we talk here. Exactly. That's why. How long ago was that? Which is gross. I don't want to age. It's almost 20 years. I mean.

Thank you. I love you. I love you. M. M. Leam Kyle Sullivan, aka Kelly, your 16th minute. It continues now.

Welcome back when you're talking about the character, too, so good for you're talking about. Welcome back to 16th Minute, the podcast where we talk to the internet's main characters and speak about how their moment affected them and how it changed the internet and us. And today, we are continuing my talk with Liam Kyle Sullivan, aka Kelly of Shoes fame. I have been so happy to hear how much people are enjoying the first part of this episode, so no commentary from me at the top. We're just going to jump back into it. We return to my interview with Liam Kyle Sullivan

at the Lyric Hyperion. A lot of just like internet stuff is just very commonly understood now because it's just been around for so long and almost in a kind of like dystopian way sometimes. But like who in your life could possibly relate with what you were going through? Like there were so few people

who had gone through anything like it. There were a handful of us. Right. I met Tazan Day who did Chocolate Rain. Yes, yeah. Wonderful human being. He seems like a sweetheart. Very smart.

And I got to meet him because Weezer did a music video. This was three years later. So it was like 2008 or nine. Yeah. I think it was nine that I got to meet him. And we talked and we, oh, wow. And Judson Lapley, who did the evolution. of dance.

Oh, yes. I get to meet him as well. Nice. He's a very smart, lovely person, too. And, yeah, we've talked over the years, actually, Judson and I about our experience. Because I still kind of have to explain a little bit. Like, it was a unique way to get famous at the time. It's still kind of unique.

I mean, I guess it's not unique in that it's been going on for 20. 20 years, but it's the kind of thing where it can happen like that. It can happen in a moment that you don't even expect. I feel lucky or fortunate that I was going for laughs. You know, I was trying to be a performer and be out there. And some people, that's not the case. You know, you have this, like, internet clout that is clear, but also people don't fully understand. So when you're translating that to, because you're already in entertainment, you're a working actor at this point, how do you bring that to your like reps and to meetings?

I remember one meeting I had where, yeah, it was clear that guy didn't get why it was funny or why people liked it. I don't know if that's like a thing where, well, we're trying to market to this audience and you're finding this audience and we don't match up. Our audience doesn't match up with yours, so we're not interested. I think maybe that's what it might have been. One of the things I gave up or just like stop doing in my brain was trying to think or imagine. I'd go in circles in my head. Why didn't that work?

Why didn't, you know, maybe it was because I was bringing in some anxiety like I was before. Like I might have had some desperation on me because I knew like this is a shot. This is, you know, you only got one shot. Do not miss your chance to blow. Like that whole thing. Full eight mile.

Full eight mile. Maybe I had, don't fuck this up too far forward in my head. You know, I try to think what was my part in this? You know, why didn't it cross over into mainstream success? Or not even mainstream, just like more traditional success. And I guess I've just stopped thinking about that. And it's made me much happier. Really going into the Liam Sullivan.

internet archive experience. You were like ahead of the curve and people didn't know what to do. Like they didn't know how or if there was still a sense or I guess I'm curious if you felt the same way. Stuff that was very special to you on the internet still felt like separate or like cool or underground. Even though every single person you knew had seen it, it still felt like, well, but people don't know about this. But we did. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. I meet people now. who haven't seen it. I once did a show where there were a lot of straight people,

straight men, who didn't know who I, like, had never seen. But we're appreciative, we're assholes. They were just like, wow, I never saw that. That was really good. I don't know how I missed it. And I was like, well, you know. Another thing was that a couple years in,

when I was making more and more videos, it really did become harder and harder to just do what I wanted, because I suddenly I was the studio exec. I could see the numbers. I could go under the hood and YouTube and say, people checked out at your video at, you know, 323. Or, you know, this video did really well. Make more videos like this. I mean, I know that some people are very like invigorated by that, but I find it very stressful. Yeah, I was like you. And like creatively limiting. Okay.

Yeah. And it's good to have limits as a creative person. Sure. Sometimes because, well, most times, the mother invention, you know, that, but in this sense, it was brand new. It's not like when you get in front of a crowd and you don't get laughs, you're like, okay, that didn't work. Let's go back, figure it out. You go up again, and it does get laughs. You're like, okay, I worked it out. It's working.

Whereas I was now at a place where I kind of had to just put it out there. And if it wasn't working, well, you're S-O-L. And then be a data scientist on the back half, which is like... I needed someone else to be doing that, but I also didn't want somebody telling me you should make more videos like this one. Right. I was like, well, what about, you know, where I'm at now as a creative? That kind of went away. You know, I started trying to satisfy the numbers instead of making stuff that made me laugh.

At what point did it stop being fun? When did it start to feel a good job? I think I always had fun, but I did get to a point where I knew I had to do Kelly if I wanted to make a living. This was all I was doing. And there were no contracts coming in. There was no like, oh, you're going to be on this show, you know, paying. Like that wasn't happening. And so, yeah, it was stressful.

I tried to have fun. But at a certain point, I just said, you know what? I think I have to stop. Gosh, I haven't really thought about this in a long time. So it's hard to articulate. It wasn't so much that I didn't like the character Kelly. It was like I felt like I was under her shadow. I never made anything as good as shoes or muffins.

And so I felt like I'm just kind of, I don't know what the word is. Like circling, I feel like I'm hovering in this zone of creativity, but I'm not growing. Yeah, that's how it felt. It felt like a trap. It felt like, oh, geez, I can't do anything else. And plus, you know, I was kind of catapulted into a different way of making things. Right. You know, I had to make things kind of like shoes took months to make.

I mean, I shot on the weekends. I shot at night. A lot of locations. There's a lot going on. I location scouted. I did all that stuff. Yeah. I was like, can you, can you?

I had three different cinematographers helping me. No way. Yes. because people weren't available. Like, I was like, are you available on Saturday at 2 o'clock? No, I'm doing this other thing. Okay. It was a lot.

Yeah. And so I remember having one meeting with someone who said, yeah, we could do a new video every month. And I was like, I don't know if I can do that. Yeah. Yeah. So it was, yeah, I don't know if you want to call it burned out or taking a break for mental health or just like realizing, oh, I can't really make money at this the way people are making money at this now. Like, that was like six years. later, five or six years later where it had changed a lot and people were churning out stuff,

real cheap stuff too, like just talking to camera. And I was like, I don't want to do that. I want to do a character and a story and all the stuff. Right. Truly, like, you can count on one hand people who had experienced anything like that when you were having to process it. Yeah. How did you process stuff like that? That's like a lot of pressure to be under with like literally no one to talk to about it that would understand. I mean, geez, I don't know how I pressed. Well, it took years of therapy later, but the therapy helped me mostly with the feelings of anxiety that I would have.

Sure. Because you have anxiety in life no matter what. And I felt like I needed help to deal with it. You know, I needed tools, strategies to say, okay, I could feel myself getting all, you know, worked up, you know, whether it's meditation or breathing or, you know, just something. I need something. Right. And I got a lot of help with that in therapy. We did cognitive behavioral CBT. I was lucky, you know, I found a good therapist. What really catapulted me into therapy was my mother died. And that hit me so hard because she was such an inspiration to me. And she died

when I was 36 and I was just married, you know, it really, it really messed me up for a while. But it was right around the same time, like five years after going viral where that happened. And so it was kind of a, I was in a bad place. Was all of your family still in New England? Yeah. And being so far away, that's really hard. Yeah, my mom, oh my gosh. So I won a People's Choice Award for shoes.

Yes, I saw the acceptance video. Yeah. Yeah. And so the reason there's an acceptance video of just me on the couch is because that year there was a writer's strike. And so they did not have a regular ceremony with the red carpet and the step and repeat and all that. So I didn't get to go. But my mother watched the East Coast feed, you know, the live airing. And she called me three hours before it came on out here and she said, Liam, you won, you won, you won.

Oh, it was so great. That's so sweet. Yeah. Oh, that's so cool. I know. We'll be right back with more Liam Kyle Sullivan. What would you do if one bad decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison or the most brutal boot camp designed to be hell on earth? Unfortunately for Mark Lombardo, this was the choice he faced.

He said, you are a number. a New York State number, and we own you. Shock incarceration, also known as boot camps, are short-term, highly regimented correctional programs that mimic military basic training. These programs aim to provide a shock of prison life, emphasizing strict discipline, physical training, hard labor, and rehabilitation programs.

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That was my dad, reminding me and so many others who need to hear it, that our trauma is not our shame to carry. and that we have big, bold, and beautiful lives to live after what happened to us. I'm your host and co-president of this organization, Dr. Leitra Tate. On my new podcast, The Unwanted Sorority, we weighed through transformation to peel back healing and reveal what it actually looks like, and sounds like, in real time. Each week, I sit down with people who live through harm, carried silence, and are now reshaping the systems that failed us. We're going to talk about the adultification of black girls, mothering as resistance,

and the tools we use for healing. The unwanted sorority is a safe space, not a quiet space. So let's walk in. We're moving towards liberation together. Listen to the unwanted sorority, new episodes every Thursday, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A foot washed up a shoe with some bones in it. They had no idea who it was.

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and you'll meet the team behind the scenes at Othrum, the Houston Lab that takes on the most hopeless cases, to finally solve the unsolvable. Listen to America's Crime Lab on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Your entire identity has been fabricated. Your beloved brother goes missing without a trace. You discover the depths of your mother's,

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Welcome back to 16th minute. Ariana Grande is not going to win an Oscar this weekend, but I know how I feel. And here is the final piece of my interview with Liam Kyle Sullivan. Well, I mean, I want to talk a little bit about, I mean, I just want to talk about New England all the time, either like inspiration from your family or your actual family into your work at different times.

They're all over it. I mean, the muffin lady is a hyper. Exaggerated version of my mother. She used to make gourmet. She studied to be a gourmet chef, and she used to make these wonderful dishes for me and my sister, but we were kids. So gourmet food was like trash to us.

But she put it down in front of us and say, You'll eat it. You'll eat it and like it. And that stuck in my head, and I put that in the muffins video. Kelly's mother-grandma, that's based on two of my grandmothers kind of mashed up together.

and the dynamic, you know, in the shoes video. I know, or I think I know, maybe I'm wrong. You worked with your now wife on Kelly videos, right? Yeah. How did you, did you meet through doing that, or how did you meet? Oh, we met. It was great. It was so great.

I was doing a show at the Henry Fonda Theater in October of 2006. It was a Halloween show. So everyone was dressed up. costume. I was dressed as Kelly and I did my set. I got off stage. I was walking to the lobby and she walked past me. She was dressed as Marilyn Monroe. And I was like, wow, who's that? And you know when time slows down? That's what happened. It felt like I was moving in slow motion as I looked at her and she looked back at me. Later, I'm in the lobby and I see her again and I talked to her and I flirted with her. I was still in Kelly costume, but I felt really confident. Yeah.

So I didn't know is this connected to Kelly. This is awesome. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So we didn't know what we really looked like. Right. So our first date was like a blind date because we said, we'll meet here. I didn't, in those days, you didn't look people up.

Like, I didn't look her up to see what she really looked like. Right. That felt creepy to me. Yeah. To, like, investigate. I think people forget about that because it's so normalized now that, like, the idea of, like, online stalking someone used to be very creepy behavior. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So when we met and we had a great first date, yeah, we wound up. We went to this restaurant that both of us were like, this isn't us. Let's get out of here. Nice. So we took off and we went to this little bar. They were playing ABC by the Jackson Five.

And have you seen her by the shy lights? Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Have you seen her? Tell me, have you seen. So that became the song we danced to at our wedding. That's so nice. Oh, my gosh.

And I love that you met as two famous women and then became just two totally different people. I never ever thought of it that way. That is so cool. Yeah. But I tell a little more about how we met in my show. show. And you have two kids now? Yeah. Okay. Daughter's 11 and our son is five. I just did baseball with him and she's in a play. We're not like pushing her into that. Because, you know, we're just supporting. If she wants to do it, great. And she's made some short films too.

Whoa. And she's got talent. She really does. I've, I've edited for her. I've, you know, she's been like the director and I've sat editing her stuff. Yeah. And she, knows timing. She's got great timing. She's just really, she's got a lot of talent. And that must be so cool getting to like collaborate with your parent and you collaborating with your daughter. I know.

I know. Because I'll try to teach her a little bit, but not too much. Right. Because I want her to figure shit out on her own. You have to realize her vision. But she knows what she wants. That rocks. And that, yeah, it totally rocks.

I'm so happy. Does your daughter know about the Kelly videos? Has she seen them? Okay. What's her take? Does she like them? She likes them, but they're not, they're 20 years old. Sure.

It's like ancient history for her. Wild. But I don't really ask her about it. I don't really know what her opinion is per se, but she knows about it. And I've performed when she's been there a couple of times, I think. So she's heard the F-bomb and all that, you know. It's different. Like when she was eight, six, you know, kids change so much over time.

Totally. So she could have a totally different opinion now. I don't know. What does it like watching your kids be these digital natives? We try to hold back as much as possible. It's like building a dam. It's, you know, because you're not just opening them up to the world and what's out there. You're allowing people in to their world as well.

We took a class about like how to protect your kids from, you know, predators or, you know, creepy people and stuff. And the best piece I got out of that piece of advice was who's asking what? Who wants to do what with your kid and what are they doing? And what are they asking to do? Like, oh, we need to, you know, do this thing privately or, you know, like that kind of shit. But online, you just don't, that's a whole different world. So we got to take another class eventually. But we do things like, you know, she has a phone, but it doesn't have social media on it.

Right. It has, she can call her friends or text her friends. And that's it. For my son, you know, he barely, he's only five, so he's not there yet. Yeah. It's a new landscape, and I feel for parents out there because you just don't know. Yeah. You can put all the fail-sate, all the parental controls on the iPad and all that stuff to try to protect.

But there's always going to be a way around it. Like, it's just cleaning out my dad's house last summer. I found this letter I wrote to him. I don't, and it's been like 11 or 12, but I've been. It was like this long apology for, like, having a secret MySpace account that my parents didn't know about. And it was like, I'm so sorry. I've betrayed you. And, like, blah, blah.

And I think he kept it because he thought it was funny. I'm curious how your relationship with the Internet has changed. But I guess I'm even more interested in how your relationship with Kelly has changed now that you're sort of, like, reconvening with this character. Yeah. My relationship with Kelly has definitely changed. It's weird because I am Kelly. So it's really I'm talking about myself. I am, you know what it is?

It's kind of like I did this cool thing. I can still do this cool thing. And I've kind of like stopped the negative talk in my head. Like every time it rears its ugly head, I'm like, I don't need to hear that. I don't need to think that. I can just go with what's going on and feel good about performing this character and find joy in it. and not think, oh, I'm just, you know, one-dimensional or, you know, oh, I'm just this, you know, I'm not that talented or, like, all those terrible thoughts can go fuck themselves at this point. Yeah, yeah.

Well, that's, oh, man, that is very empowered to hear it. I'm glad for you and I'm glad for the audience is that, like, people can tell you how important your work is to them because it's true. Like, there's just very few pieces of work like Kelly, especially at the specific time where it just is like it's a, it's a generational work. It's really special. And I'm glad that you. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I mean, I'm a big fan.

And I'm so glad that your relationship with a character and your relationship with yourself is like you can reconnect with it on your own term. I also come full circle and be back on stage. That's amazing. It is amazing. Yeah. And I tell myself, you know, Liam, it's okay to suck. it's okay you can get up there thinking you're going to suck and you might suck you might be awful you might forget everything you wanted to say you might just lay a big egg up there but you

got up there and you did it and that's the thing that way back when like 35 years ago maybe I got this advice which was dare yourself to suck you know if you're afraid of being bad at something, don't let that fear stop you from doing it. The internet of today kind of discourages you from doing that in a way that feels a little frustrating of like, again, like you're saying like you were having to feel like you had to do in 2006 of like chasing the numbers, making sure that like you're calibrating something to be creatively satisfying to this machine. Yeah, like there's a trick to this and if you learn the trick, you'll succeed.

But there is, I mean, that's just impossible because I feel like if you followed those rules, shoes wouldn't have happened, you know? Oh, yeah, shoes broke a lot of rules. Right. Yeah, I did a lot of things unconventionally. Yeah. And it worked for me. This show that I'm doing is I'm going to try to keep doing it and get it really good.

And it's been difficult to do because it is such an emotional journey. Yeah. I'm talking about really, like the stuff we talked about here. therapy. And it's a hard show to do. It's really hard. I can imagine. Yeah. It's sometimes I feel excited to do it and other times I feel terrified to do it. And is that, is this style of performance for you? It sounds pretty new, right? The something that's personal. Yeah. I've never really gotten personal like this in front of a big crowd.

By the end of the show, like I'll run the show in my head or, you know, just run the lines. By the end of it, I feel better thinking like maybe this is a good message. there's, I think there's a good message in it. I don't think it's just me flapping my gums for an hour. There's funny parts, there's sad parts, but I think as a whole, maybe people can come out of it with something. Almost every time I finish it, I feel good. Yeah.

Thank you. Well, I mean, thank you for taking an hour and a half to talk with me. Did we talk for an hour and a half? I'm sorry, I didn't mean to talk so much. No, like, again, you're doing me a huge favorite. This is like so, I'm so happy. I'll find something to cut out, you know. Thank you so much to the wonderful Liam Kyle Sullivan.

You can follow him at the links in the description. And if you happen to be listening to this, the day it comes out, he will be workshopping his show, a Liam Kyle Sullivan show, tonight at the Lyric Hyperion in L.A. And next week, on 16th minute, we are taking a side quest into the language of today's internet. See you then, and for your moments of fun, here is Kelly's most recent official appearance, a promo for Crocs. I don't think you're going to fete. I mean, your feet are kind of bad.

Oh, by the way? Why don't I just go get your size? Thank you. No, seriously, thank you. 16th Minute is a production of Pool Zone Media and IHard World Now. It is written, hosted, and produced by me, Jamie Laughness. Our executive producers are Sophie Lichten and Robert Evans. The Amazing Ian Johnson is our supervising producer and our editor. Our theme song is by Sad 13.

Voice acting is from Grant Crater. And pet shoutouts to our dog producer, Andrew. my cats fleeing Casper and my pet Rockbird who will outlive us all. Bye. If you're looking for another heavy podcast about trauma, the saying it. This is for the ones who had to survive and still show up as brilliant, loud, soft, and whole. The unwanted sorority is where black women, fims, and gender expansive survivors of sexual violence rewrite the rules on healing, support, and what happens after. And I'm your host and co-president of this organization, Dr. Lyotra Tate. Listen to the unwanted sorority, new episodes every Thursday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

podcasts. It's Black Business Month and Money and Wealth podcast with John Hope Bryant is tapping in. I'm breaking down how to build wealth, create opportunities, and move from surviving to thriving. It's time to talk about ownership, equity, and everything in between. Black and brown communities have historically been last in life. Let me just say this. AI is moving faster than civil rights legislation ever did. Listen to money and wealth from the Black Effect Podcast Network on IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I just normally do straight stand-up, but this is a bit different. What do you get when a true crime producer walks into a comedy club? Answer, a new podcast called Wisecrack, where a comedian finds himself at the center of a chilling true

crime story. Does anyone know what show they've come to see? It's a story. It's about the scariest night of my life. This is Wisecrack, available now. Listen to Wisecrack on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Every case that is a cold case that has DNA. Right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime. On the new podcast, America's Crime Lab, every case has a story to tell. And the DNA holds the truth. He never thought he was going to get caught. And I just looked at my computer screen. I was just like, ah, gotcha.

This technology's already solving so many cases. Listen to America's Crime Lab on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.