Sixteenth Minute (of Fame) - surviving the manosphere: teachers, researchers & ex-members speak out

Episode Date: December 24, 2024

In our final episode about the manosphere, Jamie talks to people who have been directly involved with and continue to navigate being targeted by the ever-evolving space over more than two decades. Three people across three generations explain how they got in and out of red pill and MRA spaces, a teacher in Texas explains their struggle to get through to teenagers taken in by Andrew Tate, and a researcher on incels expands on her struggle to manage her mental health while exploring a world that doesn't respect her autonomy. Names have been changed and interviews have been edited for clarity. Next week, for our final episode of 2024... something light! Get tickets to the Bechdel Cast tour here in LA, SF, and Portland OR -- livestream tickets available, too! https://linktr.ee/bechdelcastSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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When your car is making a strange noise, no matter what it is, you can't just pretend it's not happening. That's an interesting sound. It's like your mental health. If you're struggling and feeling overwhelmed, it's important to do something about it. It can be as simple

as talking to someone, or just taking a deep calming breath to ground yourself. Because once you start to address the problem, You can go so much further. The Huntsman Mental Health Institute and the Ad Council have resources available for you at loveyourmind today.org. Tune in to All the Smoke Podcast, where Matt and Stacks sit down with former first lady, Michelle Obama.

Folks find it hard to hate up close. And when you get to know people, you're sitting in their kitchen tables, and they're talking like we're talking. You know, you hear our story, how we grew up, how I grew up. And you get a chance for people to unpack and get beyond race. All the Smoke featuring Michelle Obama.

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Please keep listening. Quick thing right at the top of this show. I am going on tour with my other weekly podcast, the Bechtelcast. If you're a listener of the show, it's an intersectional feminist podcast that I co-host with my friend, Caitlin Yerante. And we're going to be doing a few tour dates in January. So if you live in Los Angeles, San Francisco, or Portland, Oregon, we are going to be in your town. And even if you're not, there's going to be live stream tickets available. So if you're a fan of that show or you just want to be weird in Paris.

social, those are the places to do it. We're going to be in Los Angeles on January 19th at Dynasty Typewriter. That's going to be a variety show with some of our favorite past guests of the show and just a celebration of the show. In general, you can get tickets live if you're in the area or live streamed. Then we will be in San Francisco at San Francisco Sketchfest on January 23rd covering Titanic. We did something called the Shrek Tanik tour last year, which is, I know, brilliant, inspired, nothing better than that, where we will cover either Titanic or Shrek. There are no live stream tickets for that. So if you're in the San Francisco area, that's the only way to see that show.

And finally, we're ending our mini tour in Portland, Oregon, home of Sophie Lichten, and we will be covering Shrek at the Curious Comedy Theater on January 26th in Portland. And there will be live stream tickets for that available. There may be some special guests. I mean, I don't know. Come and see. So, yes, if you've been listening to the Manusphere miniseries, I really, really appreciate it. And if you want to come and hang and chat, bacterial cast shows are always super, super fun.

Hope to see you there. Happy holidays. Here's the show. I can't be one more more six minute of fame Sixteen minute of fame Sixteen minute of fame

Sixteen minute of fame One more minute of fame I'm not so bad when you save me a mind Welcome back to the Internet's characters so good I am. Welcome back to 16th Minute, the podcast where we talk to the Internet's characters of the day to see what their moment was like for them and what it says about us and the Internet,

except not today, one last time, because this is our final installment of our Into the Manosphere series. And, folks, it's been a journey. We've checked out the origins of the Manistphere. Mind you, not a history of misogyny or I would truly never sleep again, but rather the history of these organized male supremacist groups coming to prominence in response to gains of not just feminist movements, but virtually any progressive civil rights movement. Like seasons one and two have lost, which are the only ones I've watched so far,

it's all connected. We've followed these male supremacist movements onto the, the internet, where they split into subgroups performing their own version of free-form jazz misogyny. The in-cells, the pickup artists, the men's rights activists, the men going their own way, and all of the sub-variants they're in. We've followed them to forums, into radio, and eventually YouTube and podcasts. We've looked at the historical third and fourth-wave feminist touchstones they've responded to. In the crimes and harassment movements, they've turned into news stories.

Amplified by algorithms, the Manosphere is absolutely still recruiting if reports from the last few years are to be believed to kids as young as 10 years old. The more I learned about it, the more I really do feel like it is an important space to talk about. And I think for parents and teachers, especially, a space to have a basic understanding of to, as my guest FD Signifier expanded on last week, to be able to recognize when young people are engaging with it. I'm not suggesting there should be a moral panic that means that nuking the Manosphere will solve the problem. The Manosphere is an extension of the problem, that systemic failures have reached the point that grifters are able to take advantage of unregulated internet spaces and a screen-addicted population

to spread ideas that are far more profitable than any progressive or leftist idea tends to be. The Manusphere is well-funded, And so even if you don't engage with it directly, it's more likely than not that it's affected you at some point. Whether we're talking inside or outside the Manusphere, the Overton window of how we talk about these systemic issues and ignore others has been reduced to phrases like, the internet isn't real life. Which is interesting because there's no shortage of young people who have taken their own lives after being bullied online that clearly felt very differently. And it's no mistake that this often-dismiss phenomenon is becoming increasingly prevalent in black youth, in girls, and in queer youth.

More than one thing has to be true here. The internet and the real world are very clearly not the same place, but to downplay the tremendous influence one has on the other dooms you to be an eternal boomer. It pushes away young people, and it does not serve the young people in your life. But what I've really hoped to stress through this series isn't just the idea that the Manosphere is a space that's boosted and further normalized mask-off hatred toward not just women but queer people, trans people, poor people, and anyone who isn't white.

It's a symptom of late capitalism. But when it comes down to it, the way that the Manosphere affects you, and to what degree it affects you, has everything to do with who you are as an individual. And so to close this series out, I wanted to share some of those perspectives. And thankfully, many listeners reached out who have either interacted with or been fully pulled into this space in the past. I've talked to people who have exited the Manosphere over a period of three decades. I've talked to people who have studied and been kind of traumatized by it, relatable.

And I talked to a young teacher who's just trying to figure out how to speak to their students about it without being shut out entirely. So for the rest of this episode, I'm going to let their stories take center. And because some names have been changed, let's get to know their voices. First, a non-binary person socialized as a man who entered the Manosphere well over two decades ago, Tom.

I'm 45, and yeah, I don't know, I have four kids. Part of what drew me into the father's rights bullshit It was, I kind of got pulled into that by my bitterness over my divorce and my anger around what I perceived was that my mistreatment by the custodial and child support systems. This is Alyssa, a leading researcher on in-cells. Hi, my name is Alyssa Davis, and I am a third-year PhD student in sociology at Vanderbilt University. This is Arna, a German man in his late 20s.

who entered the Manosphere after a year abroad in the U.S. in the early 2010s. I'm Anna. I am 29 years old. I'm from Germany. I am a master's student in psychology. And I definitely was in the Manifphere for a while. And, yeah, I got out of it. Am I seeing Flea or Casper? I know this might be added to him. This is Casper. Here's Isaiah, who's in their early 20s and grew up deeply entrenched in Christian conservatism. My name's Isaiah, and I'm currently a student, and I identify as queer, neurodivergent, among other things. And, yeah, I survived the manosphere.

And finally, Paige, who is a non-binary former high school teacher in Texas. My name is Paige. I am a former high school science teacher. I started teaching, it would have been 2022, at that point kind of a remedial physics chemistry. mystery class, so I had all nine through 12. And when we come back, we talk to the survivors of the mannosphere. We all know, right?

Genius is evenly distributed. Opportunity is not. It's Black Business Month, and Black Tech Green Money is tapping in. I'm Will Lucas spotlighting Black founders, investors and innovators, building the future one idea at a time. Let's talk Legacy. tech, and generational wealth.

I don't think any person of any gender, race, ethnicity should alter who they are, especially on an intellectual level or a talent level, to make someone else feel comfortable just because they are the majority in this situation, and they need employment. So for me, I'm always going to be honest in saying that we need to be unapologetically ourselves. If that makes me a vocal CEO and people consider that rocking the boat, so be it. To hear this and more on the power of black innovation and ownership, Listen to Black Tech Green Money from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. Welcome to Pretty Private with Ebeney, the podcast where silence is broken and stories are set free. I'm Ebeney, and every Tuesday I'll be sharing all new anonymous stories that would challenge your perceptions and give you new insight on the people around you. On Pretty Private, we'll explore the untold experiences of women of color who faced it all. Childhood trauma, addiction, abuse, incarceration, grief, mental health struggles, and more, and found the shrimp to make it to the other side. My dad was shot and killed in his house.

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16th minute. Has anyone else seen this incredible six-hour-long movie I've been hearing about called Santa University? Let me know. I hear it's amazing and that the woman who wrote it is really beautiful. All right, let's get into it. These interviews have been edited for time and clarity. And here are the expats of the Manosphere. About when did you leave these spaces for good? I'd say around 2008, 2009-ish. I was in my 20s and, you know, I wasn't really, you know, aware of the shifting window of politics going further to the right. I was a rock against Bush while also, like, accepting this, like, cesspool of monsters.

So it was very much based around how father's rights. was about like fathers don't have access to as robust child support needs and they don't often qualify for public assistance stuff. And family court judges were biased against fathers and that sort of rhetoric. The problem that as I see, you know, as I eventually saw it, was that problem was that problem was coming from inside the house. You know, it wasn't that, you know, women were poisoning the system against us. It was that the system is fucked up because of misogyny. As you said, it's been around for like a while. So I guess I'm more in like the modern era of in cells post-reddit bans. I actually started my research for my master's thesis. I was originally

going to use a subreddit that was called, I think it was brain cells. And in cells had gotten banned in 2017. This was 2021. Brain cells was still around. But right as I was about to start collecting data for my thesis, brain cells got banned. And so I was like, oh, no, what am I going to do? And so then I found in particular, our slash insult exit, which mainly focuses on men who have, I guess, identified themselves as insoles in the past, expressing a desire to leave the group, which then led me to kind of these other spaces that since insoles have gotten pushed out of, I think the sites that they originally sprung up on, which is Reddit and 4chan. Now they're going into different areas of the internet and creating their own

websites and forums that function very similarly to Reddit. In one of the papers that I published along with my co-author, Heather Ketri, there's kind of this idea of free spaces that has been studied among scholars who look at extremist groups. And these free spaces function as places where individuals who are members of extremist groups can move into and are isolated from the mainstream while also having, I guess, the opportunity to continue to foster these ideologies. So in that respect, they're really hard to get out of because you're insulated entirely. And the only people you talk to are people who, I think, agree and support those ideological functions. The danger of having, like, such an insulated community is that it does become

an echo chamber. And it does become, I like what you said, like a death cult, essentially, where they're simultaneously each other's only like support system, but then also that support system is so negative and so harmful. I think it is decent to mention here I was undiagnosed ADHD and autism as a child. I definitely had negative experiences as in bullying when I got to like, let's say middle school, Germany's system is a little different, but I still have. had some friends that I brought over from like elementary school when we went to the same class, but I definitely was no longer as outgoing as fun. And I also struggled with just social

interactions. If I am thinking back on it, I am still cringing hard on the things that I did. Yeah, so internet was very germ focused. Now, I did to say that like the internet is 95% in English. I don't know on the actual percentage, but vibes wise, that sounds about right. Yeah, before getting into the Manusphere, before really discovering the internet came through my exchange here that I did, which would be junior year in the U.S. to Florida, actually. I remember that I was told about Reddit, but I was back then still nine gag kid for like internet. Oh, yeah. YouTube. Like Philip DeFranco, I think I discovered what are other people, because I don't watch them anymore, they're kind of slipping in my mind.

PewDie Pye was back then 2011, 2012. That sort of developed when you were in the U.S. for a year. Absolutely. Exactly. And so I kept that and that's why I also kept my English because I stayed connected and like kept developing my English online even though I didn't. I was more of a lurker. I still got content because there's way more people who speak English and way more content in English. You will also that the top notch things that the cream of the crop will still outrank what you would find in Germany. unfortunately. And, you know, I had seen, like, all of the TikToks, YouTube video essays. Everybody look at this nonsense. This is bad. Before I was teaching, I was a rock climbing coach. And I had kids as young as fourth or fifth grade trying to tell me about Andrew Tate. And that was disturbing. So I think that there is a level of, like, if you didn't grow up adjacent to understanding what these spaces are, it can kind of go over your head. And like, it was really interesting,

honestly, being in that position, because I, I don't know that I was the youngest teacher at my school, but, like, damn near it. Some of my kids understood that, you know, I'm not that much older than them. A lot of them did not. I felt like I was the only person that saw that the emperor had no clothes. So I was, like, born and raised in evangelical Christian household. It was, It was like not a lot of exposure. And I remember kind of having this thing called the internet or like, I think YouTube in like early 2010 and just being like not able to have any access to like internet and having very weird media access rules within my family. But then having my friends especially going to like public school in Vancouver, it was interesting to see some of those like I want to say like cooler kids. but the kids who have access to the internet.

You said you sort of, the algorithm was guiding you more towards the red pill pipeline. Yeah, some of that like red pill, black pill type content. I do want to preface that I was never really deep in it. But what I will say is when you are surrounded by evangelical Christians and you're surrounded by the space, that's very purity culture. And then it's reinforced with what content is being. produced online and what your friends are watching and what they're suggesting and how that media is affecting it. I really experienced like the Manisphere from two different perspectives and

that was really vicariously through my my friends and through my social interactions. The one that I remember this kid that was in one of the remedial classes that I taught and he was definitely a bit higher achieving than at least the other students in that class period and I usually left him alone to his devices because he would turn his work in and I was like, I had whatever, you were the least of my worries. But at one point, I started looking at his work

and I could tell that he was just phoning it in. Whenever I was talking to him about it, and I was like, man, you just got to put in like a little more effort. I know you are better than this. His argument was that he didn't really care to put a whole lot of effort in as long as he could play football like he wanted to and whatever because he was going to graduate and then make a bunch of money with this thing that like Andrew Tate had been talking about, Bitcoin and stuff.

It was like that kind of thinking where it's like, I don't have to do the same things that everyone else here does. and act the same because I have this cheat code that, you know, this man on the internet gave me. I remembered when I was in Florida, there was a moment where even after I've thought that I redeveloped myself that I'm now extroverted, why are girls not interested in me? And so I also were able to ask these questions now in English. I mentioned dread I found R slash seduction, for example, and I think I discovered the simple pickup YouTube channel who are like, oh, you know, you just need to go out there and like talk to people and fake it to you make it and like have a

30 day challenge in which you just be extreme and like have no more no shame and like that just break that barrier that you're afraid of and I was unable to do something like I was watching those videos I'm like yeah that sounds great I know I should do this for a month and I never took the train into a hamper two the seeds were planted for why don't girls like me what is wrong with me. Something must be wrong with me. And I think that's interesting because later on, when I got closer into the atmosphere, I changed from like, it's wrong with me to like, oh, no, the reason are actually women. It's not you. It's clearly half of the population. Absolutely. That must be it. If you're moving into a space that continues to kind of foster this echo chamber ideology,

extremism becomes more and more rampant or apparent. So my more recent research where I've actually gone on some of the more extreme insult sites, I was seeing things that were horrific for me to even view, like acts of violence that were being endorsed or committed or videos or it being shared, as well as advocating for the self-harm of the insults themselves. So suicidal ideation, a lot of self-hatred and that kind of being endorsed and supported by members of the community, this overwhelming ideology of like, you cannot leave this group because this is who you are, biologically. But really what got me into it was I started my university, struggled a little bit to make friends also. It's despite being neurodivergent, if you get a

degree in math, you will meet more neurodivergent people. While nowadays I vibe a lot with people who are neurodivergent, I struggled to make friends there. So I went to like an orientation and then there was a woman, a few years my senior, who was interested because I sat there with a chess board and like not talking to people and so she decided to sit down we started playing chess and like kept talking throughout that evening and like kept contact for another week it's a truism or a joke that men don't pick up on hints from women yeah 100% in my case we started dating but also she was very much interested in the Red Pill. She even sent me, like, I think in the first week, a PDF on a book that would translate

to the praise of sexism. You know how there is benevolent sexism and hostile sexism? I forgot who the researchers are who develop that idea, but there's those two types. It's much more in praise of, like, benevolent sexism and like, oh, no, women definitely won the trad wife lifestyle. It's having my first kiss at 19. If that is what my girlfriend believes, then obviously that must be true. That must be the reason. Also, it explains so much. If I already struggled for like, why don't?

I'm like me. Oh, the answer is hypergamy. I just didn't present myself well. Now, does that already go into the face of how she approached me when I was a loner on a chessboard? Absolutely. Did I think about that? No. Do we know how she got there?

Hart were her friends who probably discovered it. And she was much more tomboyish. So she had much more male friends and were like, oh, I'm different to other girls. I'm not like other girls, almost to her. Which was like early 2010, I think was much more of a common, you know, to bring out the site student. We all fall for confirmation bias. We are, if you're invested and you're doing that in a social thing, Of course, you're going to see it that way to a certain extent.

She already had a previous social circle that was interested in these things. And so I think that's probably how she got into it. I'm also curious, how these spaces relate to masculinity and you navigating your own gender? Does that intersect at all? I have always been queer. You know, I've known I was bisexual since I was in college. my queerness of gender didn't come about until the pandemic. You know, obviously I'm very masculine presenting.

In retrospect, and you mentioning that, you know, it does, it was probably pretty performative. There's a lot of aggression, performative rage, if that makes sense. I would feel this anger, right, about perceived slights against me. In these, you know, online spaces, you know, I would bent about this, but I would almost play it up to, like, get sympathy from these other angry, men the very like jocular like virtual back slapping like you know it's okay buddy there's this like sort of like social incentive to exaggerate your anger and your feelings to get that false

camaraderie you know men are socialized to be so lone wolfy and solitary but like that's not how people are we need community and we need people and we need to have a place where we can feel things and when the only feeling that's allowed is that rage they you know we kind of go all in and it ends up in this horrific display of anger and rage and violence I'm curious that like how you would approach talking to students who had clearly taken this in that was really hard being a queer teacher in Texas right and I mean I wasn't even out I didn't use like my proper pronouns or anything but like I if you interact with me for more than a few men minutes like it's written on my face. I definitely had quite a few kids that I don't know for sure

that they like, you know, specifically fell within that community space of the manosphere and everything. But they had a lot of the same attitudes the way they would argue and stuff. They would definitely push the queer issue if the opportunity came up. I had a really big conversation with a couple of my classes about referring to women and girls. as females. I don't know if it's just like being in the part of the South that I'm in that it's like super, super common. It feels like a bit more than at least whenever I was in school and it really bothers me. It feels a little dehumanizing, obviously. I would always just provide a little bit of pushback. If I were to come down like super duper hard on them and be like, hey, you can't do

this in my classroom, then they have the bad guy, you know, coming down on them and oppressing them that can reinforce. I almost phrased it as like a the same like cheat code thing. Like, hey, this is going to take you far in life. Don't do that. Sometimes it works. It would be like, why?

And then other girls in my class would chime in and be like, well, it feels like a nature documentary thing. It feels like, you know, you're not actually acknowledging us as people. Like, you're acknowledging us as specimens. I feel like providing that opportunity for them to hear how that is effective. the population that ostensibly, you know, most of these boys are interested in.

You know, sometimes it works. Sometimes they were just like, nah, y'all don't know what you're talking about. You're just sensitive. But the conversation is worth it for the couple of kids that are going to get it. Going deeper into these spaces, was neurodivergent something that was discussed openly? I don't think so. Not at all. I think it was, I mean, I will also say that I was much more of a lurker as well.

So from there, I went then to like R slash the Red Pill and went to top of all and discovered that most posts are from 2016, 2017, which is when I was online. So interestingly enough, I was there when it to a certain extent, I guess, peaked. Now, that's probably because nowadays it's quarantine, so it's not going to be shown to the front page anymore. It is more restricted. And I bet that that means there's less draw to it. or there used to be, at least in the red toll space, three main people, and they were the three R's. That is Rolo, that is Roycey and Roshby, I think. I think it's Roshby is how he was written.

I'd have to look that up again, and they were very prolific, and people were reading aspects of them. Now, Rolo Tomasi had books that came out, and I remember buying them and listening to them through Audible. the rational male. And I know there's a trollji. I even, oh, another gringy moment is I gifted my uncle that book, like right around that time as well. That one's also talking about like, you should spin plays. You should not be emotionally invested in women. So the idea is like spinning place, you should always have at least two. So you don't get too much invested in. Game and social suavness is your wealth, of course, and your physical looks as well. So there it very easily came like I was familiar with in-cell communities, and had I not had a girlfriend, I think I would have gotten

much closer to in-cell. You also mentioned that you got into Jordan Pearson. Could you tell me a little bit about that? Yeah, what sparked about him for you? I think that one was the algorithm with, like, YouTube. And yeah, I will mention that I broke up with my girlfriend early 2016, I think. At that point, I no longer have, like, the social support. for lack of a better term to like reinforce my beliefs.

But I definitely am kind of left there. And I'll mention this. I was raised by a single mother. I didn't really have a, I met my father for the first time when I was 11. And he's actually a really chill dude, but we're bros. Like he's not a father figure per se.

When I was trying to figure out what is a man, the manosphere obviously is also another point where that they give you answers. They're like, hey, you know, oh, all these poor young guys who are raised by a mother. And so they don't know how to treat a woman right. And I'm like, it's me. They're talking about it. So that's what's wrong.

Yeah, I am like, I am your prototypical saved, unsaved person, you know? It was definitely like there was no space where I felt like I could perform like Isaiah, perform myself. It was always, you go to church, you have to perform a certain way. You go to school, you ought to perform a certain way around that. Yeah, that was just a really tough space to kind of look for. And I will say, like, the hardest part about the Manosphere and the masculinity that the atmosphere sells you, it's not necessarily the vision, as much as it is a lack of imagination. I think that lack of imagination of who you could be and who you might be able to versus what you should be is what

robs a lot of people. And when I'm looking back on how the atmosphere and how this vision, this corporatized product of what masculinity should be, ultimately, I think about all the lost time of me trying to be something that wasn't rewarding and that wasn't helping me and wasn't helping others. Genius is evenly distributed, opportunity is not. It's Black Business Month and Black Tech Green Money is tapping in. I'm Will Lucas spotlighting Black founders, investors, and innovators, building the future, one idea at a time. Let's talk legacy, tech, and generational wealth.

I don't think any person of any gender, race, ethnicity should alter who they are, especially on an intellectual level or a talent level to make someone else feel comfortable just because they are the majority in this situation and they need employment. So for me, I'm always going to be honest in saying that we need to be unapologetically ourselves. If that makes me a vocal CEO and people consider that rocking the boat, so be it. To hear this and more on the power of black innovation and ownership, listen to Black Tech Green Money from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, Puzzlers. Let's start with a quick puzzle. The answer is Ken Jennings' appearance on The Puzzler. with A.J. Jacobs. The question is, what is the most entertaining listening experience in podcast land?

Jeopardy truthers who say that you were given all the answers believe in... I guess they would be conspiracy theorists. That's right. Are there jeopardy truthers? Are there people who say that it was rigged? Yeah, ever since I was first on, people are like, they gave you the answers, right? And then there's the other ones which are like, they gave you the answers and you still blew it. Don't miss Jeopardy legend Ken Jennings on our special game show week of The Puzzler podcast. The Puzzler is the best place to get your daily word puzzle fix. Listen on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I always had to be so good, no one could ignore me.

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He was shot in his house, unarmed. Pretty Private isn't just a podcast. It's your personal guide for turning storylines into lifelines. Every Tuesday, make sure you listen to Pretty Private from the Black Effect Podcast Network. Tune in on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. The danger of it is they're becoming more extremist in their beliefs, I would say. So historically, Incells have kind of been, there are acts of violence and mass violence

that have been committed by them, such as the Islista shooting, the Toronto Van attack. More and more instances of these mass acts of violence are popping up. But holistically, the broader community of Insull are not. nonviolent. And instead they're very self-hating, self-deprecating. I actually was talking to this co-author of mine the other day. And she mentioned, I can't remember the name of the book, but a book that she was reading. And in this book, there was a case of an in-cell and I guess like his friend where they had met on one of these online spaces. And they both had, I guess, participated in sexual activity with a person. And after this instance occurred, one of the guys broke down was like, I don't know who

I am anymore. My life is over. My friends are gone. Like, I can't say I'm an insult anymore. I'm like actually having a complete breakdown. And the other man and the woman that they engaged in this activity with, they were comforting him and saying like, no, no, we don't have to tell anyone. You don't have to tell anyone. Like, we can keep this a secret. It's okay. And so there's this huge community element of it and then also identity component that I think really keeps them like wrapped in this space ultimately like profound loneliness and mental health issues. This school that I was at was very, very low income and I was, you know, teaching remedial students and that's just different. I mean, it felt like there was a lot more insecurity,

at least like from those kids that were really engaging in this, you know, you know, shitty rhetoric. The kids that kind of, I guess, had the most to prove and didn't have a whole lot to fall back on. These weren't my kids that were my super high achieving by the most part. They were my kids that were struggling and maybe didn't get a whole lot of help at home and didn't have a whole lot of guidance. All of these students that I've actually been thinking of, the ones that I really tried to have the most conversations with and check in with the most because I didn't want to sit here and just argue with them. I wanted to be constructive and to not feel like I was just sitting here criticizing criticizing. That's not my job here

as a teacher, you know? I got out of my previous social situation and I think that's one of the things that is really important that the people that you're around, if you are able to change your environment, you as a person might change. drastically. And that's really what happened to me during my exchange year during high school. I'm gaining a community again. I'm gaining a social support. And what has drawn me into the redoubt was being with my girlfriend and then being online, not really talking with other people, potentially getting rejected for people who are like, I don't know about that. That seems a little iffy. And instead of being like, hmm, yeah, maybe you're right. I'm like, no, no, this is

explain, you know, my worldview, things are being explained to me so nicely. So clearly, you're wrong. The algorithm is still there who's feeding me things, but I, maybe even through proximity, they're realizing, oh, you're now at university, you're on a university. And maybe contrapoints is someone who you would find funny, because you're coming from this edgy humor that we know, this person seems to resonate with people like you. One aspect that also de-radicalized me is I am very lucky for my socioeconomic status. I was able to fail and get back up again, but like had enough financial security that

that is not a major factor of radicalization. The radicalization came from, why don't girls love me rather than why is my life complete shit in every regard? You know, why am I being failed by the system? I say show me less on YouTube and it keeps showing me the same amount. It's ignoring my desires. and I'm getting more and more frustrated with that to the point where I then decide, okay,

so clearly my account is tainted. That is also part of where I then started to move out of that sphere. I'm making friends. I have my social circle with I'm building where I have people that I look up to. I meet my now wife at university where we're starting to talk about it. And she points out to me like how it's quoting a study

and the study itself, look into it is the exact opposite. She's way smarter than me. Clever and intelligent and I love her so much, of course. But also, like, she is taking the effort and time. I got lucky that I had friends with my doctoral student, with my now wife, who took the time to like, hey, I think this isn't really right. My girls were angry. Like, there were like a couple of instances that like some dudes in the corner would be talking really, really poorly about, I don't know, one of their friends that posted whatever on Instagram and oh, she looked so slutty, whatever. This one instance that I'm thinking about, this girl got really, really upset because that

was one of her friends, and she was like, you cannot talk about us this way. Like, this just is not okay. And frankly, got pretty aggressive about it and became a behavioral incident. But I normally in something like that, I would have referred off. It would have been disciplinary action and whatever. But I didn't want to do that because she was right, which kind of ended up being the conversation I had with her. And I mean, I didn't have another issue with her about it. Like, she would say what she needed to say and then be done.

And I hope that that rubbed off on the rest of the girls in that class. But I also had at one point in time another queer student that was in one of my classes that did have a couple of kids that had specifically talked about Andrew Tate at a couple of points and interrupted my class to do so. They ended up actually transferring out of my class. They felt like they were being kind of targeted in a lot of the speech about it and didn't feel comfortable. there, which I don't blame them and it made me really, really sad. It's hard for me to say, you know, how that affected a lot of my other queer students because being in Texas and, you know, in the public education system, as a teacher, I could have lost my job. I could have, there was a whole lot of shit associated in my particular district with being out at the time. But for students,

it really wasn't that safe either. I mean, a lot of the teachers, you know, were very, we were all very protective over our queer students, but it was more worry about parents, honestly. I mean, that's just what made it hard in general. They're not going to say anything about it because they don't want to target on their backs. And I can't really necessarily ask them about it because then I'm overstepping. And now there's targets on both of our backs. increasingly we're finding out that there is a hugely intersectional component to this where there's

older men in it there's men of all different races i mean they have horrible names for men of different races and they structure them on their own hierarchy my research kind of focuses on is like how is masculinity constructed in society how is masculinity displayed in society what's considered to be the masculine ideal because these men feel as though they're not meeting that whatever that is and it's been established that this is like the possession of what's called hegemonic masculinity, where it's a particular type of masculinity that includes like wealth, that includes racial components, that includes access to women and all of these different things that make up what is considered to be the ideal man. These men feel as though they're not fitting. So I think

a lot of it is wrapped up in intersectional identities and then also just how our society constructs understandings of ideal masculine performance, what it means to be a man. Having been in that space and now reflecting on it, what do you make of how these spaces are being presented to us and what they mean right now? I think there is an unfortunate amount of like apology for them. You know, I feel like too often people will try to couch it in this like, well, dudes need a space to be dudes and dudes will be dudes and the society bends over backwards even more for an empowered group and you know they see queer people getting fraction of a fraction more power

and then they freak out and everything has to go 12 steps backwards like it is possible to fucking get out of that shit it's cheesy to say but you know there's hope as long as people are willing to actually communicate which is I think biggest challenge there is to actually be introspective and be thoughtful and, you know, actually talk about shit. I think we often frame men as the, or men identifying individuals as the victims of Manosphere content and masculinity, but it completely underplays the fact that, like, at the end of the day, the Manosphere is informing people who are performing masculinity, and that's impacting women that's impacting people who are queer and in some ways I've heard people talk about like

the manosphere and they almost placate the massive amounts of impact that's had on women right like first dating partners or and you're having this you're having this like boyfriend or partner who is trying to perform what the manosphere is telling them dating or being a boyfriend should be like and it's disastrous but I can't imagine how harmful that might be or how kind of difficult it must be to not only have a partner who is subscribing to this idea of masculinity, but also perform what is expected of them from like a femininity standpoint of the manosphere, right? What of my own like personal, I guess like talking about like my queer identity a little bit more, taking on more of like a non-binary identity has been like really a

reaction to how little I want to associate with, like, masculinity at this point. I'm actively sad by, like, the impact I might have had or still have by my actions, just unknowingly, right? Like, unlearning masculinity is so difficult, but I think it's, it's so necessary. I think men's rights, like, the whole men's rights movement is, like, a way of placating men's responsibility to realize that they, their actions. have massive consequences on other people. I honestly think that the bigger thing that scares me

is the thought patterns behind it and the way that information is presented. I think that that is also a lot more contagious. My kid that I had talking about their Get Rich Quick scheme they got from Andrew Tate and friends, that line of thought is going to be able to spread to a lot more kids and that way of thinking is going to thread to a lot more kids than, say, you know, women should do X, Y, Z.

That, I think, is, like, entirely my job as a teacher, especially a science teacher, is critical thinking and being able to point out bullshit arguments and when something is not credible. I think if kids and people are equipped to be able to look at the way that these are constructive, to tell that this is predatory, be able to be able to be. see that they're being sold a product, then it's less likely to spread. People aren't going to fall for it. Is this an important space to be aware of? How is it effective to talk about it?

I mean, I definitely do think that it is something that should be talked about a lot more. Like, the big thing that is making its rounds in professional development stuff is, you know, how do we deal with AI and all of that? And I'm not saying that's not important, but this doesn't affect, you know, how our kids are writing their essays in all of that, but it affects how they operate as people. And I really, really wish that it was a bigger conversation. I really think the biggest thing is just talking to your kids and, like, really investing in like, okay, this kid needs, like, some guidance, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to grab their hand and yank them in. to what they need to think. It's building the relationship and being the role model that probably inspired you to teach, right?

Kids need that, especially if they are at risk like this, you know? The shaming that exists is something that people struggle with, but I do hope that they find better, healthier resources like, for example, like a roundtable where you're working towards something proactive, something positive, rather than trying to find an explanation that feels good, but that leaves you still disconnected and frustrated at somebody else. I think if you're getting frustrated at somebody else, that is very profitable for algorithms. And that is something that I'm very, I think, is scary for the near generation. It really is not something that the loneliness will be talked about, but the reasons for that and this idea of like

something is wrong with you, here are ways to find that out. Like going to a therapist is something that is, if you feel lonely, there is no shame in trying to tell that to someone and trying to find a solution for that. I think that's extremely important. I've been asked before if while I'm researching if I feel empathy towards this group. And at times, yes, and at times, no. At times, I feel like profoundly disgusted and angry. And also, there've been moments where I've had to shut my laptop, go in my room, and, like, cry for a minute. Because I've seen things that are so horrific when I hear something like the male loneliness epidemic. I'm like, whoa, like, why is that our responsibility to, like, figure out. And I think that men have been socialized in a way to

not value, to repress their emotions, I guess I would say, therapy. And understanding that perhaps you have a mental illness can be constructed as weak or not believed by certain people. And so that's like a social construction that people who have been socialized as men have to battle, I think, to a degree, which then I think does breed this. But then also, there is a sociological theory that's called like the concept of a grieved entitlement, which is this idea that we've socialized men in society in a way to believe that they're owed certain things for just being men. Access to women's bodies is one of that. And so then when they don't receive that, sometimes these groups pop up and they're angry about it. I think it's like the steps of harm reduction

and the steps of creating community, it's like almost there. But then they like blame it on women And at some point, and you're like, wait, you were so close. What's going on? I think it's really men have to come up with the self-realization that they're hurting others and that their identity and their idea of masculinity has impacts on others. It has been marginalized communities. It's been the mothers. It's been the sisters. It's been the partners who have had to do the legwork sitting their spouse, their partner, their brother down and saying, hey, these attitudes are not. there. I think it's really on men to realize that. And I think we have to keep the responsibility

on men. The moral panic that's going on right now about the Manusphere almost stops conversation on what are people getting and like really how systemic Manusphere content is. Because I think people like it's so hard to generalize. Like what are we talking Andrew Tate or are we talking about Joe Rogan? If we label people as Manusphere content and dismissive, of their, like, potential audiences and their potential communities, I think that could really alienate people. And I think it's the alienation that is really going to be causing people to act with prejudice and act with stereotypes. I think it's trying not to put people in a situation where they feel like the victim, but more so understanding their actions from potentially

victimizing others. Thank you so much to everyone I spoke with in the process of reporting on the Manosphere, I am so, so, so grateful, and not just to the folks I talked to today, but to everyone I've spoken to for this show. Obviously, this wasn't a quantitative study, but I think it's telling that the first three people who reached out to me when I put a call out who had been in the Manosphere were either closeted queer folks or neurodivergent and lacked a support system that understood them while they were being pulled into these spaces. And of course, I'm not saying that everyone in the Manosphere is either queer or neurodivergent. That's obviously far from the truth.

But to me, this demonstrates how the Manosphere preys on those who do not meet the stereotypical masculine idea and encourage them to turn on others even more disenfranchised than themselves instead of just rejecting that image of masculinity. So my conclusion with this series, honestly, I don't love it. Because what's obvious from everyone I've spoken to is that the clearest solution is a healthier community. Tom and Arna both detailed how finding more empathetic and purposeful groups of friends made them feel better and more purposeful themselves, making it somewhat easier to get out of the Manusphere altogether. And of course, the ability to do that will always intersect with class.

And Isaiah was able to keep their distance from the Manosphere because of queer anti-capitalist role models that they found on your. YouTube. And that's wonderful. But there is still this kick in the back of my mind, the kick that tells me that the centrist men behind laptops are still going to turn around and say, the manosphere will go away if women and non-binary folks can just be nice to men who are still in these spaces. Page experienced that as a teacher. Alyssa experienced that as a researcher. And still, there is this pattern if you keep track of places like, R slash in-cell exit, something that Laura Bates mentions in men who hate women, that one of the more common experiences that extracts young men from this space is just a woman being nice to them.

Here's a little clip I wanted to save for the end from Alyssa. There is one post that it sticks with me where it was literally titled, Let Women Prove You Wrong. And it was this whole story about how this person had had a really positive interaction with a woman and was like, women are human and like, that's amazing. And like, you really should talk to women and let them prove you wrong. They're not evil people. Think like interesting from multiple levels. One, because I think it's, I guess, profoundly sad that he had been socialized to believe that women were so evil that it was surprising he had a positive interaction or perhaps he'd never had a positive interaction with a woman. And that was truly his first one.

I mean, come on. And if you are someone who has that patience and that will- then that's incredible. I'm not discouraging it at all. And there have been times where I've had that patience myself. And I also know plenty of wonderful people who are way better at it than I am. But it's the expectation that this will happen in order to dismantle this space that I still find really frustrating. I want to echo what Isaiah said earlier. It's on other men. I would rather a man be embarrassed while trying to talk a friend down from the Manosphere, then 10 women get doxed. We've talked a lot about how there is a gradient for how misogynist these spaces can get, but there's also a gradient of consequences for its targets, ranging from a fundamental dearth

of respect for our personhood to being a literally lethal space. And this isn't a consequence of the Manosphere specifically. It's just what the Manosphere is upholding. I'll remind you that domestic violence against women has the statistics to support one of the leading causes of domestic terrorism, but no one ever says that because domestic violence against women is so normal. The media that covers these spaces will always prioritize the perpetrators and rarely interrogate the cause. It's a digital manifestation of misogyny that skews into every marchion. nationalized community therein, misogynoir, transphobia, you name it, and these are equally under-discussed and can be even more lethal. To conclude, the Manosphere is a response to

expectations under capitalism. You hate to hear it, but it's simply true. There are so many men out there who feel that they are failing to meet an ideal. Most often, because the system is failing them. We heard today from people who were not meeting the cis hetero successful male ideal because they were queer or because they were neurodivergent. But there's so many sources of this feeling of not measuring up because of how white supremacy and capitalism makes everyone feel. To be anything but white isn't measuring up. To be anything but rich isn't measuring up. And we're living in an increasingly diverse society where we're being pummeled with wealth inequality, so you would either have to be tremendously lucky to measure up to these standards

or, more often, just become a fucking grifter yourself. The Manosphere doesn't really interrogate any system at all, instead encouraging men to push their rightful anger at targets who have always been considered fair game. Women, or to be more specific, anyone who is not a cis man. Doing so will continue to thwart progress. It will accomplish nothing in changing these men's feelings of insecurity and failure. And it will mean that there's a generation of girls and non-binary kids that will internalize this space, regardless of whether they take action for or against it. So sorry I had to tell you all that. And that's it for this mini series. Thank you so much to everyone who has been listening. This was a very challenging series to put together with a show that is on a

schedule, so I really hope you've gotten something out of it. And if you did, please subscribe to the show, engagement talk, like, comment, subscribe, tell your friends, or I haven't slept in three weeks for no reason. You can also join our Reddit board at R-16th minute. It is the rare wholesome Reddit board. You can follow me on Instagram at Jamie Christ's Superstore or at Blue Sky just under my name. And you can come back next week for our final episode of the year to hear who I have declared the internet's main character of the year.

My answer is not surprising. It is Hawk, Tua. Bye. 16th Minute is a production of Cool Zone Media and IHeart Radio. It is written, hosted, and produced by me, Jamie Lofus. Our executive producers are Sophie Lichten

and Robert Evans. The Amazing Ian Johnson is our supervising producer and our editor. Our theme song is by Sad 13. Voice acting is from Grant Crater. And pet shoutouts to our dog producer Anderson,

my cats flea and Casper, and my pet rock bird who will outlive us all. Bye. It's Black Business Month, and Black Tech Green Money is tapping in. I'm Will Lucas spotlighting Black founders, investors, and innovators, building the future, one idea at a time.

Let's talk Legacy, Tech, and Generations. wealth. I had the skill and I had the talent. I didn't have the opportunity. Yeah. We all know, right? Genius is evenly distributed. Opportunity is not. To hear this and more on the power of black innovation and ownership. Listen to black tech green money from the black effect podcast network on the eye heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I always had to be so good no one could ignore me. Carve my path with data and drive. But some people only see who I am on paper the paper ceiling the limitations from degree screens to stereotypes that are holding back over 70 million stars workers skilled through alternative routes rather than a bachelor's degree it's

time for skills to speak for themselves find resources for breaking through barriers at tetherpaper sealing dot org brought to you by opportunity at work and the ad council tune in to all the smoke podcast where matt and stack sit down with former first lady michel obama folks find it hard to hate up close. And when you get to know people and you're sitting in their kitchen tables and they're talking like we're talking. You know, you hear our story,

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And on my podcast, Good Game with Sarah Spain. I'm breaking down the players, the predictions, the pressure. And, of course, the honeydew. The Signature Cocktail of the U.S. Open. The U.S. Open has gotten to be a very wonderfully experiential sporting event. To hear this and more, listen to Good Game with Sarah Spain, an IHeart Women's Sports Production, in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment

on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Brought to you by Novartis, founding partner of IHart Women's Sports Network. Hey, I'm Kurt Brown-Oller. And I am Scotty Landis, and we host Bananas, the podcast where we share the weirdest, funniest, real news stories from all around the world. And sometimes from our guest's personal lives, too. Like when Whitney Cummings recently revealed her origin story on the show. There's no way I don't already have rabies.

This is probably just why my personality is like this. I've been surviving rabies for the past 20 years. New episodes of bananas drop every Tuesday in the exactly right network. Listen to bananas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Thank you.