Slow Baja - Doreen Cunningham Soundings: Journeys In The Company Of Whales

Episode Date: April 20, 2024

Author Doreen Cunningham's beautiful volume is a luminous depiction of an epic grey whale migration and an intensely powerful memoir of reclaiming a life battered by poverty and isolation. It is a shining testament to the healing properties of the natural world. Soundings is the story of a woman reclaiming her life, a child growing to love an ocean that is profoundly endangered, and a mother learning from another species how to parent in a time of unprecedented change. Learn more about Doreen Cunningham: https://doreencunningham.com/ Get your Baja insurance here: ⁠https://www.bajabound.com/quote/?r=fl9vypdv2t⁠ For more information about Slow Baja: ⁠https://www.slowbaja.com/⁠ More information on Slow Baja Adventures: ⁠https://www.slowbaja.com/adventures

Hey, this is Michael Emery. Thanks for tuning into the Slow Baja. This podcast is powered by Tequila Fortaleza, handmade in small batches and hands down my favorite tequila. Hey, hello, thanks for tuning into the Slow Baja today. My heaping dose of gratitude goes out to Jeff Hill from Baja bound insurance. Unfortunately, on my recent Slow Baja, winter expedition. A brand new Jeep had a problem just an hour into the trip and it required

a tow because it was brand new. So it couldn't just be fixed by a local mechanic down the road here, in this case, Ohost Negros. It did need a tow. It did need to go back to the dealer. And unfortunately, the dealer was in Los Angeles. But the owner had an annual policy with Baja bound, highly recommended, and that had roadside assistance. So I called Jeff. Jeff dispatched a tow right from Ensenada, flatbed toe, perfect for the job. And I was able to continue on down with the rest of the group to San Catin, which is our goal for that day. And the Donovan brothers in the Silver Surfer and Matt and Mike from Barbers for Baja, they stayed with Ron and his Jeep and waited for the toe. Those guys had a fun night in Ensenada. And again, we got to go on down the road because Jeff Hill. So thank you,

Jeff. And just in case you're wondering, it was a small problem. It did take three. toes to get back to the dealer. It was just a hose that wasn't quite installed correctly, I think, from the factory. Anyways, that was fixed. And Ron got to come back and check out the end of the trip with his girlfriend. So all was not lost. And again, huge heaping dose of gratitude to Jeff Hill for solving that problem. Before I get into today's show, I got to tell you on the Slow Baja Winter Expedition, we had Mike and Matt from Barbers for Baja and Ted Donovan from Baja visitor. and me. And we launched our baseball in Baja program. We had three deliveries of critically needed baseball gear. Coach Espinoza and El Rosario got the first batch and that was so beautiful and

heartening. And then Los Olsteneros in Guerrero Negro. That was a great opportunity to meet that team and see those guys. They're on their way to the state championship. So we were able to see them, get them hooked up with some gear and some dough to help them get down the road to the tournament. and the big delivery, the one that we had been really planning in my case for a couple of years now. Honus, Coach Honos in San Ignacio, who does so much with so little. He's got about 40 kids, and I swear he has less gear in his truck for 40 kids than my own kid does the back of his forerunner at any given time. So we were able to take care of Honus, and it was just really gratifying to see the kids tear into the bags,

find something that fits, find the pair of cleats, find the gloves, find the batting hell, but find the catchers gear, get it on, and then have a great practice after where they were really super excited to be in their gear. And I swear there are going to be some kids who are going to be sleeping in those cleats and sleeping in those batting gloves. And again, it was really wonderful and heartening. And if you want to help, if you've got kids baseball gear, if you're in youth baseball, and we're looking for gear from six-year-olds all the way up to high school kids.

So if you've got gear, shoot me a DM. I'd be happy to get you connected with, uh, a way to get the gear to us, lightly used gear, and we always need money. I'll just be honest about that. It's $130 for a bucket of balls. We're giving a bucket of pearls to each coach we see. In addition to all the lightly used gear, they're going to get a brand new bucket of baseballs. And I tell you, those coaches, they just, their eyes light up. They get to sit on the top because it's a little padded top. So they get a little coach's stool and they get a bucket full of pearls. It's a beautiful thing. So if you want to donate money and we would love to have you donate money, you can

make your tax deductible donation through Barbers for Baja. Go to their website, barbers for Baja.org, click on the baseball in Baja tab, scroll down, click the donate link, and donate whatever you can afford. And I really, really honestly appreciate it. Okay, we've got some donations coming up this trip. I'm leaving on a trip right now to donate some baseball gear to Mulehe and to Toto Santos. And again, we've got some teams on the horizon. So if you can help us out, I would greatly appreciate it. All right. Today's show. Today's show is a Skype

interview with author in the UK, Doreen Cunningham. She's written a beautiful, I mean, just a beautiful book. It's hard for me to describe how wonderful this book is. I've read it twice now and listened to it two more times on audio. I really love it. The book is titled Soundings Journey in the Company of Wales. and it's a deeply intimate memoir. It's a meditation on climate change and a thrilling adventure story following the phenomenal migration of the gray whales from the peaceful lagoons of Baja, California,

up to Alaska and the frigid waters of the Arctic. Well, without further ado, let's get right into it. Doreen Cunningham, author of Soundings today on Slow Baja. Hello, Michael. Thank you so much for your patience. Sorry about the mix-up. No problem. I'm often mixed up on these things. Yeah, I've no idea what time it is with you now.

But it's lovely to connect after your trip. I'm really glad we've been able to make this happen. And yeah, thanks for making space for me. My pleasure. Honestly, my pleasure. I feel like I've spent so much time with you already. It seems a little awkward to me actually talking to you on the phone because literally I've read the book twice now.

I just picked it up, I don't know, a year or so ago on vacation, just happened to see it at a beautiful bookstore up in Eugene, Oregon, and picked it up. Oh, wow. You don't find many books that have anything to do with Baja, let alone a book that's so beautifully written. Oh, thank you. And then starting to read it again as I was planning a trip to Baja

where I knew I was going to be doing a little whale watching. It led me to the idea of, I wonder if this is on audio and I can listen to the story while I'm walking and exercising. And then, so I've listened to it twice now on audiobook as well. Oh, wow, I'm absolutely honored. I'm so happy to hear that it's transported you in some way. It feels like I wrote it quite a long time ago now. and it's just yeah it's wonderful to hear that it's out there sailing on somehow yeah i i want to get into

that on how you've um how it lives in you or how you've moved on or haven't moved on and all that but i've got some stuff that i want to jump into first and i'm i'm going to be honest i'm really grasping on how to um make any sense of this describe this at all to to my Slow Baja listeners, it's such a, I have the feeling you're an incredibly private person. And probably from the book, it sounds like you had quite an introverted childhood. You were really in your head a lot. Yeah. And took some refuge in the wilds around you on the island of Jersey, your pony, the sea,

all of that. But this book is incredible. You've exposed it all. I have. Are we recording already? We are recording already. Sorry. Fine. Fine. I hope we're recording. I just need to really clear my throat. In fact, do you mind if I get myself a glass of order? Please do. Well, let me put on my professional podcaster hat here for a second and kind of set this up to the best of my ability. I was really trying to find a description that I felt did your book justice. I just found this one from your website on Waterstones.

And so I've trimmed it a little bit, but I want to read it here. And then we'll get into the whole talk about your amazing book, Soundings. Journey in the Company of Wales. All right, so this is from Waterston's, which is where people can buy. your book, I'm assuming in the UK. That's right. Both a luminous depiction of an epic gray whale migration and an intensely powerful memoir of reclaiming a life

battered by poverty and isolation, Cunningham's beautiful volume is a shining testament to the healing properties of the natural world. Soundings is a story of a woman reclaiming her life, mile by mile, a child growing to love the ocean that is profoundly endangered and a mother learning from another species how to parent in a time of unprecedented change.

Intrepid, brave, and breathtaking, her travels will take you to the end of the earth alongside the whales that call it home. I'm got to just tell you, I'm kind of tearing up at the moment here, so you're going to have to talk for a second while I get a hold of myself, Doreen. I am a little, yes, somebody very talented wrote that. It's just beautiful.

A really lovely tribute, isn't it? And it really, again, I'm just grasping, you know, at how to deeply, accurately, thoughtfully describe the amazing story that you've woven. So I hope you've got a copy of your book hanging around there. I have. I don't know if you can turn to the prologue. I would love for you to just read from the beginning in the prolog, and I'm going to open my book right here. I think this is just so descriptive. You talking about page two here, Doreen, on the prolog, Codiak Island up at the top is our final stop.

If you could start there and then... Yes, and actually I prepared a little bit of a reading where I start there, and then I skip to another bit and stick them together. So shall I try that and see how you find it? Please, please, please do. Yes, please. Okay. Thank you, Michael. Codiak Island, our final stop, is a major milestone on the Grey Whale Highway,

and it's our last chance to see them before we have to leave. On the map, the island looks as though it's been carelessly thrown from the Alaskan mainland. As carelessly as I've thrown away 10,000 pounds. Oh, do I need to say dollars? No, no. Pounds. We can translate that. Should I start again from Kodiak Island?

If you'd like. Okay, sorry. Perfectionism on display. Take it away, Dorea. Codiac Island, our final stop, is a major milestone on the Grey Whale Highway and is our last chance to see them before we have to leave. On the map, the island looks as though it's been carelessly thrown from the Alaskan mainland. As carelessly as I've thrown away 10,000 pounds of bank loan to finance this.

this trip. Our visas are spent too. The journey was supposed to help me start anew. It distracted me for a while, but now that it's ending, I'm confronted by all I ran from, a list of my failings. I failed to set up a life for us that I could tolerate, failed to earn enough money to support us, failed to just get on with it like everyone else. I'd failed repeatedly and spectacularly love and of course fail to see what a stupid idea this journey was in the first place i'm reading with so much failure that my legs are unsteady and i grip the sides of the boat press my hands onto the wood my fingers leave no impression in my dispirited mood the cold sludge at the bottom of the sea invites me i hold onto the gunwale and close my eyes sink down through layers of water in my mind

I am the whale diving The light shrinks to a shining hole above My blood pump slows Lungs close Body shuts down Color slips away I'm lost in a deep mist I hear the ocean floor

Twisting flowing Water sizzles Hums with life Shrimp snap I probe the dark for voices Call out Try to summon the grays Scientists now, I examine the muck, a teeming city of multitudes.

Clams surf the currents or dig in with their feet. Ribbon worms writhe and slip. A fork-tailed comma shrimp, diastilidae, acumation, swarms and sporns. These tiny shrimp are the prize the whales have travelled so far to gorge on. Hard to believe such giants are sustained by prey only millimeters long. Mud plumes spew like lava flow. as they suck up the seafloor and extrude silts through a curtain of baline plates. With shifts in the ocean due to climate change, grey whales can't afford to be fussy about their diet.

The cumations they feed on here are a less caloric and crustier shrimp than the one the whales prefer. Luckily, they're basically vacuum cleaners. I've learned a lot about grey's on this journey. I've read whenever Max has slept, you are unique and spectacular beings. Sentinels of the sea, ecosystem engineers, harbingers of the climate change that will affect us all. But where the fuck are you? How could you let me down? And I didn't think to check if it was okay to swear, and it probably isn't. You know what? We edit, and exactly this is exactly why this touches me so deeply, Doreen, that you don't hold back.

Here at's Little Baja, we can't wait to drive our old land cruiser south of the border. When we go, we'll be going with Baja Bound Insurance. Their website's fast and easy to use. Check them out at BajaBound.com. That's Bajaubound.com, serving Mexico travelers since 1994. Okay, I think I'm recording. I don't know what happened there. It looks like green bars.

Okay, so we just pick up where we were? Green bars are moving. Yeah, I was just saying, you know, that we left on FIK. Yeah. And I will say that I edit, and that might get bleeped. I have an editor. I don't have any patience for this stuff, but that might get bleep. But that's what's drawn me to this.

You're so real. I mean, this is an incredible look at your own life at climate change, at the most amazing mammalian migration in the world. And again, I'm grasping for where to start on this whole thing. So let's start on motherhood. And I'm just going to say it. I was a stay-at-home dad at 3 under 3, so I kind of understand a little bit teeny, teeny bit

about some of the struggles of what you're doing with your family. But you weren't so sure you wanted to be a mother. And if I can infer from your writings, I'm not so sure you had great examples of motherhood. And there might be some deep intergenerational trauma in the line of mothers going back in your family. Oh, well, I really love that you have picked out that line because not everybody sees it. But yes, I mean, in one way, this book is a journey of overcoming trauma in the matrilineal line in my family. My mother is Irish and was not able to be reliable when I was small.

So yes, when I ended up a mother myself, I had no idea what to do. And I was in a position where I kind of fell out of my life. You know, I had had a very independent life as a journalist. And suddenly I couldn't do that job anymore because I was sole carer for this little being. and as is the way for many women, I was underpaid for the job I did, and I literally couldn't afford to continue working, so I became a charity case overnight.

It was horrendous. And so I didn't have a great support network either. I ended up living in a hostel, and I had to create my own way. And I, having had very strong relationships with a natural world as a child and with animals. You know, my childhood wasn't the happiest, and I spent a lot of time outside and found happiness

in my relationships with non-human people. And so that's where I was drawn, and when I became increasingly desperate and depressed, that's where I reached out to and just happened to stumble on this example, incredible example of endurance and resilience, which is, of course, something that mothers really need. And so I kind of ran off to learn how to mother from the whales in a way.

Yeah, I mean, your motherhood came at an incredibly high price. And just to lay it out for the listeners, I mean, you were an employed journalist, globetrotting, had a flat in London that you normally owned. The bank owned it as so many of our properties, but you were a homeowner. You had a great job. You were traveling the world, chasing down presidents. And very quickly, you know, you were, as you said, you were homeless. You were eating from a food pantry.

You were living in a hostel for single mothers. Tell me about David Attenborough and watching the documentary on the Blue Whales. and how that led to, again, finding some connection, some solace in the story of the gray whales and motherhood and the incredible journey that you took with your son, Max. Sure, David Attenborough. Well, you know, his documentaries had already floated into my childhood. We watched a lot of David Attenborough, and I was growing up at the time that underwater photography and filming was really taking off. so and at the time that the Save the Wales campaign was becoming quite big so you would see ships or boats little boats getting in the way of harpoons on TV you know there was not a drama in this story and so I had had a particularly exhausting and difficult day living in the hostel with my baby we shared a room and slept on a mattress on the floor and you know I met some lovely people in the hostel but

I also met some difficult people and was struggling with a bit of bullying, really. I'd been there about a year and I was really down and exhausted from trying to work at night. What I was trying to do was do editing work at night when Max was asleep or during his naps. And it was a real juggle and I couldn't see how my financial situation would improve. I was living in the island of Jersey where I'd grown up, which is a very, very expensive place to live, as many places are where you have to import a lot of food. And I just couldn't see how I was going to give him any quality of life at all. Starting to panic a bit, I suppose, really. And so that night, I just wasn't up for working.

I was daydreaming. I was fiddling around online, scrolling. and I watched one of my favorite Dave Attenborough clips, which it just, it really carries the experience of awe. It's the one where he's sitting in a boat, and of course he's timed it perfectly, and this giant blue whale comes out of the sea, and the size is just so spectacular.

It has a physical impact on me. Every time I watch that clip, it is like a runway coming up out of the sea, and to understand that there is, you know, life below the surface of the water that encompasses beings that size, brains, that size, that kind of intelligence, you know, beings that can communicate across entire ocean basins. That's all contained for me in that clip. So I watched that one, and then I started to read about bowheads, which is another of my favorite species of whales, because I have been privileged enough to spend time living with an indigenous. and an Antarctic community whose lives were very much based around bowhead whales and the hunter the bowhead whale so I was reading about bowheads which are just utterly spectacular they're the

ice giants and they're so beautiful they have this incredible shining beautiful black skin and they have I think it's the biggest mouth of any animal on earth they need a big mouth because they have to eat a lot to stay warm in the arctic waters and then I just happened to stumble onto an article about grey whales which actually I didn't know much about um because they're kind of small and a bit nobly and a bit uglier um and they had flown under the radar certainly for me even as a whale nerd I didn't know much about them at all and I started to read about the mothers and calves and this incredible journey they make from the birthing lagoons in Baja all the way up to the arctic ocean and you know I

kind of ludicrously I thought oh well what a great idea to go and show Max the mothers and calves you know no one can object to that I'm going to show him mothers and babies and it seemed to me like kind of an acceptable excuse to

escape from the hospital but then I think I was really drawn by the fact that they end up in the Arctic and my subconscious was really pulling me back there to a family that I had lived with. Yeah, can we jump into that for just such a big part of the story, Doreen, and I think we're going to be all over the place here in discussing this. So can we just jump into your desire to pitch a story?

And I think it ended up being more of a sabbatical than an assignment. But you were in the Arctic and take it away. You spent time with the Kaliak family. You became part of it. of a whale hunt. Yes, I did. When I was a young journalist, I applied for exactly what you said, a sabbatical where if you worked in news, you could pitch an idea. And this was at a time when climate deniers were all over the airways. I mean, they are still all over the airways. But at this time, yes, they're more hidden now. But at this all, they're, you know, distracting, etc. But at this time,

they were just saying, oh, it's not happening, and changing the debate into, you know, whatever kind of entertainment they could. Very sophisticated storytellers and narrators were diminishing scientist's voice. And that was very confusing for me because I came from a scientific background. And so when I thought, okay, yeah, I'd like a spasical, yes, thanks. And the most urgent thing I could think of was, well, there's this story that I'm pitching, you know, most days trying to get on, and I'm being told that it's boring and they don't want to talk about graphs on air and I didn't understand why these scientists were being shouted down

so easily. I didn't quite, you know, I hadn't managed to unpick the tactics of what was going on. And so I said, I want to go to the Arctic. I want to speak to local people about what they think is happening. Are they experiencing climate change in the every day? I said it's the front line of climate change and I was told that I had pitched like my life depended on it. and they couldn't bear to say no. So I was really lucky. Yeah, I landed that to classical and off I went. Off you went, indeed.

Can you talk a little bit about Julia and Jesselie and Van and Billy and your Billy? Yeah. And, I mean, again, I don't know how intimate you want to get there, but it's quite a story. Well, I was taken in by a typically welcoming an UPIAC family when I arrived in. in Gjadik, which was then known as Barrow. It's the northern most point of the US of Alaska, and it protrudes into the Bering Sea and the Bufit Sea. And it's an inupiac city,

and it has been settled for a very long time by a community of whale hunters who risk everything to, they typically use traditional sealskin boats and I was there for the spring hunt so I arrived when it was freezing cold you know life-threateningly cold and I had to throw myself out there and just see who would take me in and Julia was like okay you seem nice you can come and stay with us and yes I said I want to speak to people about climate change and they explained that the best way for me to do that was speak to the hunters so

I assumed it would be fine for me to go out with the whaling crew and didn't realize how many taboos I was breaking. But it was a really incredible experience because, although I think they were very initially very suspicious of me, I kind of proved myself over a series of events out on the ice. You know, we were camping out on the sea ice, miles from land. and yeah by the end they said that they didn't want me to leave and I think for someone who had experienced such neglect in childhood to be welcomed with such open arms into that family and find a sense of belonging in a place that is so spectacularly beautiful and where the connection with the land is in some way still very much intact for the hunters for the subsubstabularly beautiful and where the connection with the land is in some way still very much intact for the hunters. and where the interaction with the non-human world is nothing other than magical for someone who doesn't come from that culture. You know, I was able to experience a little bit of it because of their generosity.

It was a stunning experience to find belonging there and one that changed me very profoundly. Yeah. You know, again, I'm trying to make some parallels here. It's no easy feat going into that. culture as an outsider, as a journalist, as a woman, as a Brit or an Irish woman, as you are, and finding a level of acceptance. I think that's rather extraordinary, frankly. And it must be a testament, honestly, to you and your approach to life and your honesty and integrity. And being open that you're there to listen and not to not to pry and not to bring your judgments.

I mean, I think that's an amazing position to say you want to be part of a subsistence whale hunt. I mean, that's that's spectacular and that you actually got out and did that. And I learned a lot from reading about that. I had no idea that bowhead whales can be 200 years old. Are you kidding me? Isn't it incredible? Yeah, they're like time machines. It's stunning.

Michael, I didn't really know what I was getting into. I was very naive, very young. Thank you. I just went up there with very little idea of what was going to happen, and I went with it. I had no choice, though. I have to say that the weather was pretty difficult. I got off the plane and my water bottle froze.

So, yeah, I guess I was quite shy, but there was absolutely no other option than go and hunt someone down to let me stay because a scientist who had kind of facilitated the contact with the whaling captains said that I could stay in a hut but only for one night and then he said and then you're on your own so I left the hut that morning just in a state of terror and the first person I met I asked if they were in a whaling crew and if they were could I please join it? and that happened to be a member of the Caliac family. And I just really locked out.

Just like that. Yeah. I mean, if you were home, you could walk into a pub and hope to talk to somebody like that. But there, I just, again, I'm astonished. Can you talk about that generosity? Can you talk about their spirit of giving? And I'm just going to read a quick quote here. The whale gives itself to the whaling crew, gives itself up if you are deserving.

sometimes it comes right to the boat. A crew had to behave well to deserve a whale. They must open the meat store and feed the elders, the poorest, the orphans. The animal spirit would recognize the generosity of its host and be pleased. Then more whales would come and lend their bodies to the people. Then Aivik would share its body with these who had shared with the people in her. You know, I always say that the people of Baja are so giving with so little. And I think you found this community where community is everything and sharing is everything.

And I think that those are, you know, without getting too profound, those are some of the things that we're really lacking in our current lives. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's heartbreaking, isn't it? And I think that I was heartbroken when I was in. that hostel I was like, why is no one sharing with me? Why do I have no community? You know, I had no idea that this was the world. I've been so privileged up until then. I haven't needed anybody. And then when I did, I was, you know, obviously I was very grateful to be in the hostel and to have access to food banks, but it was made so difficult. And yes, sharing is so integral to

existing as an Inupiaq. And I had somehow ingested that lesson a bit and remembered it because the whole spirituality of the hunt and the whole way the community operates is built on the principle of sharing. And yes, we need that so much right now. We've got so much that we need to be humble about in my kind of. culture. There's so much that we need to relearn. Absolutely agree. Do you see, and maybe this is way too profound, so feel free to dodge this one.

Do you see any parallels of what the whales went through and what the first people of Alaska and Canada went through with ethnocide and the wholesale slaughter of their culture and what scammons and commercial whaling did to the whales? Is that just, I mean, are there parallels there, are my nuts? I don't know. I don't know if you can call it a parallel, and I certainly can't speak for the Anupia. They're very able to speak for themselves. But I would say that the impact that capitalism is having on us and on our experience as humans,

how it is dehumanizing us, is apparent everywhere. It's apparent to me every day when I feel the separation around me, when I struggle to find community. It's absolutely apparent in the violence that is taking place around the world. It's hugely apparent in the impact of colonialism present and past. So, yes, we've done it to the whales and we're doing it to each other still. Okay. I'm going to go back to David Attenborough for just a little levity here. I watched that clip, and I learned, you know, I didn't really know a lot about blue whales.

I don't know a lot about whales. I've done three wonderful whale watching trips in Baja now, now an organized whale watching for a bunch of people in my group. Attenborough says a blue whale routinely reaches 100 meters, weighs 200 tons. Their tongue weighs as much as an elephant. That's just, I mean, it's twice the size of a largest dinosaur, yet we still have little idea of where they travel, where they breed. It's the largest animal in the world, and it feeds on one of the smallest. A blue whale can eat 4 million krill a day.

I don't know who counts all the krill, but that is, am I right? It's incredible, isn't it? I mean, even when you talk about the length, I cannot hold 100 meters in my head. I can't comprehend how big it is. And I think in that clip, you know, you just catch a glimpse of the back of the whale emerging out of the sea as it blows and then it goes under. And you just get a hint. And I think all we can get of them is a hint of what their lives are. And actually, my son, not long after the journey, incredibly, we happen to bump into David Attenborough at a public event.

And I made a B-line for him. And Max spoke to him and said, oh, I see you on the computer. And David Attenborough said, oh, what am I doing on the computer? and Max talking about animals. So David Ashtonbury asked him which was his favorite animal and Max said the blue whale. And I have a lovely kind of just, I can almost still hear him in my head saying, ah, the biggest thing that ever was or the biggest animal that ever was. So that was a moment that I like to remember to. Yeah, absolutely.

Well, from, you know, basically what the lifespan of a. gray whale, 70-something years. Am I right about that? Mm-hmm, yep. So it seems to me, basically from scammons to Pachico, is only a generation, maybe two in whale lives in the Baja Peninsula. What do you make of what happens there now with alarming regularities? What do you make of the whole friendly whale thing?

I do think it's an incredible experience to go and see those whales being so generous and so communicative. And yes, you're right. It's stunning. I mean, there was definitely intergenerational memory and trauma around. And I think that the whales were exhibiting that because they were not friendly, towards people. I mean, they were known for upsetting boats, weren't they? And it was almost as though quite a lot of observation had to go on of this culture to make sure it was nothing to do with scammone and a different sort of behaviour emerged. I don't know. I don't know what to make of it.

I would say, though, that although I'm very, very grateful to have gone there, I sometimes worry that because whales are so spectacularly gentle, I mean, you know, the whales that we were watching could easily have overturned the boat, but they didn't. They came when my two-year-old sang, and they kind of reared up out of the water and let him pat their nose and let me kiss them. I mean, it's wild. But it does give an impression that the relationship between our species is good when it's really not. I'd say that if you're looking for villains, you know, we're worse than scamming.

Our impact is certainly more. The way that we are devastating whale populations is more thorough with the way that the ocean is changing and how difficult it is to find food and, you know, the temperatures are changing. It's more subtle, but it's more consummates, I suppose. looking for the right word. And it's easy to believe when you look at whale watching that everything's okay and things

have improved and, oh, great, we're not harpooning them anymore so much. But actually what we're doing is a lot worse. Yeah, I have those thoughts as well. Not easy to digest. No, it's a really hard one. Yeah. But I just think it's really useful to talk about these things. The more we talk about it, the more we can understand it and integrate it and just reflect on how we're behaving and what we can change and what's valuable to us. Absolutely. Absolutely. Do you, I mean, it's, what, eight years on now since you were there and researching the book? Yes, I think so. I think that's about right.

How has that experience remained in you? What takeaways? Again, you know, there is some shreds of hope. The gray whales specifically seem to be adapting. I hate to say it as if it's going to be all right, and it's all going to be happy. But you talk about it. Yeah, you talk about the sounders.

You talk about how, you know, they're feeding on some different things now. How is, how, you know. Well, yeah, we were a long way on from that journey. And I do, I think about it. I mean, I wrote the book because I realized that we're in a terrible situation in terms of climate and how we're treating each other, climate justice. is so much part of the story, not just the science. And I felt like, well, I've been the most incredibly privileged experience of, as I say,

going to the Arctic and being taught a little by the Nupia. And perhaps I hadn't done justice to what they had taught me. And so I wanted everyone to hear from Jesley and Julia. And there is indigenous knowledge in the Bible. I'm really clear about who it's coming from and the family have all read what I've written about them and other members of the community have read it as well. So I was really, really careful about how I approached that. That goes back to one of the things you said very early on, which was, wow, you're really exposed in this book. And I felt like I had to be when I wrote it because I do write about difficult things and difficult people and I'm writing about real people in the Arctic.

and so I how would I have the right to write about anyone or anyone's culture unless I was very, very open about me, my failings, the difficulties in my culture, the trauma in my own culture. And I also wanted to be very authentic

because although I have quite a lot of information on climate and Wales and I want people to believe me so I try to be as me as possible And you mentioned the swearing as well, because I, you know, the natural world is for everyone. You don't have to have, I don't know, you don't have to be anyone in particular to have, to be part of it. It's for everybody.

And I, you know, even sweary single mothers who are traumatized and don't know what they're doing with their lives, even people who are lost, we're all part of it. and I don't like how it's accessible to some people and not others. So that was part of the mission of the book. But the takeaways were just, let's be kind. The love that I experienced on that journey with people and with the non-human world, it held such meaning for me and it made my life worthwhile. And it kind of saved me and it saved the relationship. with me and my son. I really did find a way forward and I often think about, you mentioned the

founders, one of the mother whales who is called Earhart and she is the kind of leader that I think we need now and I think that everyone has a right to know about her and to draw inspiration from non-human leaders because what she is doing is she is forging a new path for a whole community of Grey Wales. She is one of the founders. of this group called the Sounders, which are seen in the waters of northern Puget Sound, and they've discovered this new food source, which is very important as the Arctic warms, and, you know, food moves around the ocean floor and isn't necessarily where you thought it was going to be. And so I think about her a lot.

So inspiration certainly, I hope I don't really dare touch on. I think about those grey whales a lot and they've helped me and I think hope has to come from us doesn't it? I don't think we can look outside of themselves for hope. I think hope has to come from our own behaviour and how we stand up for each other and if we call out what is wrong, what is being done that is wrong

and we hold our leaders to account for what's being done when people are being treated badly and issues with colonialism are very live today. If you look at what's happening in Gaza, and we have to be the hope. I don't think we can rely on the whales to be the hope. And I can't, I don't think we can watch and be bystanders and expect hope.

We really have to bid it. And I'm saying that, you know, you may not want that in there, Michael. Cut that out if you want to, but I can't not mention it. No, I don't. If you need to, for your purposes, I'll understand. No, and again, I, again, you may not. Again, this is, I have to be honest with you in reaching out to you to connect on your book. This is immensely deep and difficult book sometimes.

And, you know, I really did want to share it. And I was really wondering how to parse the parts, you know, that are easily digestible. And then the parts that stay with you and hurt for a while. And I think, you know, your take on hope is much the way that I look at it the same way, you know, sometimes with a big feeling of helplessness mixed in. Yes, it's hard, isn't it? You said something earlier that basically, I'm going to paraphrase here, but basically when you said when you went to the Arctic, you didn't know what you were getting into. And to put it politely, I think you would agree that you were just in the kindest sense of the word, ignorant. Absolutely.

Even as a trained journalist pitching the story, thinking about this all the time, you were ignorant. I feel a similarity there in, you know, this is my 40th year of bumming around in Baja. And I started as a dumb college kid just going there to drink and not really taking it seriously for the first decade or more. didn't get it but now as I spend time as an adult with you know empty nest or kids kids gone and adulting in their own life I feel like you the the weight of the people in your Anupiac culture didn't get the same weight as the people in Baja the whales in Baja got the weight of that experience but did you feel like the the preconceived notions your friends told you about the narcoct

And, you know, the travel stories of a single woman is going to get killed with just a, you know, a minute she steps out of her door. Somebody's going to take her car and that's it for her. What was your actual take about, you know, being in Mexico outside of the folks who are actually on your boat who sounded absolutely atrocious? And I feel so sorry that you had that experience because what a wonderful whale watching should just be an amazing experience that there was. actually tension and, you know, an awful part of that experience just it saddens me to my core. Well, I think that they weren't expecting a kid. I hadn't realized, you know, I thought it was going to be a family experience. I thought that lots of young children were going to be there, but it really wasn't.

But I think, you know what? You weren't in a nightclub diet. I didn't realize how unusual it was until I wrote the book. And even when I was writing it, I had this really interesting experience with this wonderful U.S. Editor at Scribner Valerie. when she said you know we still don't quite get why you've

done this journey you're not quite taking the reader with us I think we need to talk about that and I was like what do you mean it's like I went on holiday and she was like no no she just had to say this was a really weird thing to do and then I had to think about it more but yes I had a mixed experience of the whale watching

it was wonderful too though unfortunately you know my lack I don't speak Spanish so I wasn't able to do much independently and I joined a tour group and I found the local people were incredibly welcoming to me and my son it was more I think people who had this trip on their you know sort of bucket list I guess and saw us as getting in the way of their experience and again that's a cultural difference you know in some places children I celebrated and accepted and I had found that I was cut out of my life by having a child you know I was stuck in the hostel I was supposed to keep quiet I wasn't supported I could hang out in playgrounds but you know you weren't expected to be anywhere else with a kid running around if you went to a museum or anything you'd kind of get browned at or an art gallery I remember a few of those experiences so yeah I don't know if I've answered your question at all Michael do you'll be to start again

No, no, no, I just, I think some of the, again, my focus being on Baja, and I'm always talking about the beauty of the people and their kindness and their caring and their generosity. And that's rarely what is coming out of the news. You know, you're only hearing about the one horrific thing that happened as opposed to the multitude of horrific things that happened in the United States on an alarmingly regular basis. But we had a wonderful time in Baja, and we found the local people very, very welcoming and kind, even though I could hardly speak a word of Spanish. And I also read, you know, incredibly impressive accounts of the efforts to protect the grey whales and create a sanctuary for them from, you know, local figureheads. And so I had a very positive experience of the community. and I have been criticised actually by Irish family members

who said I had a very rose-pinted view of the Anupiac and maybe perhaps gave quite a harsh view of my Irish family which I don't think I did. I worked very hard to be fair but I had you know if you have a positive experience then and that's what you have. And that is what I had. I had a wonderful time in both places, both in Baja and in the Arctic.

You know, life-changingly wonderful time, such generosity. Yeah, I want to jump back into your time in the Arctic. I've got some notes. It's about community. And you were pushed, I guess, a little bit or suggested to speak with elders. And I'm going to, you know, get back into the climate change that's here. There's no stopping it. And, in fact, that's Warren.

How do you pronounce his last name, Matuviac? Matumiac. Matumiac. He said it, you know. He's 79 years old. He said climate change is coming and there's no stopping it. In fact, it's arrived already. You said that Warren's landing strip at his fish can.

was unusable the the ice underneath the the landing strip had melted and the the freeze-up was coming later and the river breakup was coming earlier and when Warren was a young man he he heard elders talking about the weather and it was so good so calm in his final years the elders said the weather was angry yeah yeah that was two thousand and six yeah so that's a wide ago. Yeah, that's a long time ago. So one of the scientists I speak to in the book said something like, you know, the Arctic

is the warning bell. Everything that happens here is going to happen everywhere else. And so they were seeing changes first. And I'd say that we're all experiencing angry weather. Well, certainly experiencing it on this side of the Atlantic. And the storms in Alaska. There are ferocious storms, cutting away at the beach. Yeah, there's effects everywhere, and now it's about how do we help each other,

and how do we minimize the impact that we're having from here. Yeah, and, you know, I think about you quoting Jessely and his relaying that the elders of his childhood said that, you know, one day the ocean would be ice-free and there would be ships going past east and west and here in Chicago I think less than 1% maybe 2% of the lake was frozen this year I mean it's warmest wild mildest winter in 100 years yeah yeah well nice talking to you Doreen that's nice I don't know what to say about that sorry but yep do we need to end on a better note Yes, we're going to end on a better note, and I'm waiting for you to lay it on there for me. No, you know, I mean, switching gears, getting back maybe to Earhart, the Sounders, motherhood.

Has motherhood gotten easier as it's gotten difficult? You've got three kids now, and do you feel like you've taken away something from? I've got three kids now, and yes, so that's interesting. How old are the twins? The twins are seven, and that. Max is 13. So he's very different, obviously. And actually, whenever I talk about Earhart, I can hear him groaning.

And if ever I'm telling him off, he'll try and distract me by saying, oh, mommy, tell me about Earhart. So it's a bit of a joke between us now. He's come to quite a lot of my events and sits there rolling his eyes. But do you know that journey, it really did what I hoped it would. It gave us time together and an immensely strong bond. And I think that's, it's been wonderful to talk to people about that and share the strength that you can find in relationships with other people,

including non-human people and to know that the book is out there and hopefully sharing that strength even wider. That gives me enormous pleasure. So I'm so grateful to speak to you today. Thank you so much for inviting me on. Yeah, and again, all those fears that you had way back when about throwing 10,000 pounds away, it came back through karma, didn't it? Yeah, yeah, it did. How do you pronounce that, the R.S.L. Gilles St. Aubin Award? How do I pronounce that?

The Royal Society of Literature Gileson-Oben Award, and I had not thought of that until you mentioned it right now. It is exactly the same amount of money as I took out for that bank loan. That's hilarious. Yeah, that's really lovely to think of it was given back to me. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Doreen, we're going to leave it on that karmic high note.

I really want to say thanks again for taking a flyer on some guy who reached out with a podcast called Slow Baja and saying that you would talk to me about your beautiful, beautiful book Soundings Journey in the Company of Wales. I found you through Doreen Cunningham.com. It seems to me that you're not really interested in chatting with the greater world. You're pretty busy mom and all that. Is there any place where people can kind of look in, see what you're doing, where you're speaking, or any place other than that? Yes. It's been wonderful being here.

Thank you for having me. And, yeah, Doreencom. It has an events page, but I'm also on Instagram at Doreen writing. and I provide updates about any events that I'm doing there, and the book's about to come out in Italy, so I'll have a little update about that soon. So, yes, either the website where you, and there's a contact form there, if you ever want to get in touch.

I'm very happy to do book groups. I love doing book groups or Instagram. All right, well, I just pulled up Doreen writing at Instagram. It looks like I'm following you already. I can't even believe that. Oh, fantastic. I'll keep in touch with you there. And I just need to say it again.

Sincere thanks, deep thanks for making a little time to talk about you and your journey and again, this amazing book. I really have enjoyed hearing you read this book to me again twice now and maybe more than twice with the amount of cramming I did in the last couple of days preparing for our chat today. But I will highly recommended on Audible folks. get out and listen to Doreen say all these names, these Anupiac names. Holy Toledo.

Can you throw a couple of them out there in closing? Just like you've got to talk from the back of your throat to make some of these. Back of your throat. I got a lot of help from a really wonderful translator, Etta Patak Funia. So, well, I love Arvik. Arvick is the bowhead whale. And the gray whale is Arvikluwak. So there's two really beautiful words there, which I enjoyed saying some of the others were harder.

Pachshlahtau-Tainik is another nice one. Yeah. There, I'm showing off now. Yeah, and just to wrap it up, Doreen, how do you say fuck in that language? Oh, you know what? I never asked. I'm going to find out. I'll get back to you.

Hey, I need that one. Thanks again. It was really lovely. Thank you, Michael. All right, cheers. We did it. We did it. Well, I hope you like that.

You know, I have an aversion to doing these Skype calls, but sometimes that's the only way it works. Unfortunately, I wasn't going to be in the UK anytime soon, and I really wanted to get Doreen on the show because I really, really, really, really, you heard me say it. I really enjoyed the book, read it twice, listened to it twice on audio, and I would highly encourage anyone who's interested after hearing the interview today to pick up a copy of soundings and enjoy the book like I have. All right, well, if you're enjoying listening to the podcast, you've got to help me keep the show going.

Drop a review on iTunes five stars. Say something nice on Apple. Tell people while you're listening to the show. Spotify, you can leave a review there now, too. It's been months since anybody's left a review. So please do that. It helps people find the show. It helps the show stay relevant and get recommended. And that's important stuff, almost as important as dropping a taco in the tank, which keeps me doing things. things like this and keeps me on the road and I'm going to be in Baja for two weeks, probably while you're listening to this show. And that's a lot of tacos because Slow Baja only gets about 10 miles to the gallon gases. Oh, you know, 450-ish a gallon.

And so you can do the math. It takes a lot to keep me on the road doing these things in person where I like to do them. So if you've got some tacos jingling, please take a second. Go to SlowBaha.com. click that donate button drop a taco in the tank and thank you very much and while you're there you should buy yourself a hat or a shirt or something that says slow bah on it a sticker for your car i was recently on my flight from chicago to san francisco and a guy was uh heading down the aisle with his beautiful toddler just showing the toddler uh some new sites keeping him quiet and uh he saw my slow bahaw

hat and he said hey i follow that guy and then he looked at me he said hey you're that guy so nice to meet you Quinn. He got a new hat. And you know what? When you're wearing a slow Baja hat, it always does spark an interesting conversation with somebody who loves Baja just like you. So do me a solid. Get some Slow Baja merch that Deluxe Canvas shopping bag. New batch of those are in. The last batch just flew out the door. It's a really, really nicely made bag. I use it as my carry on now with my laptop and all that stuff. All right, well, we're going to get to the end of the show. I'm going to tell you about my friend off-road Hall of Fame or Mary McGee. You know, she said it. She said, I'm not sure I'd be in the Hall of Fame if I hadn't done the Slow Baja podcast. Well, she did enough in her real life

to be in the Hall of Fame, and I'm glad that the podcast might have gotten some folks thinking about her again and thinking how they missed her the first time around. So I'm glad Mary McGee is in the Off Road Motorsports Hall of Fame. But I'm also glad that Mary McGee went to that New Year's Eve party in 62. And Cool Cat, Steve McQueen, her a pal said, hey, Mary, you got to come out to the desert and ride a dirt bike with me. Because Steve loved Baja. He really did. And he used to go down there with the stuntman buddies, the Eakins brothers, and they used to ride Malcolm Smith. Yeah, those guys. They used to all hang out and ride Baja together. And they got Mary McGee to go with them. And, you know, Steve said it.

Steve said, Baja is life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting. You know, people always ask me, what's the best modification that I've ever made to slow Baja? Without a doubt, it's my Shielman seats. You know, Toby at Shield Man USA could not be easier to work with. He recommended a Vario F for me and a Vero F XXL for my navigator, Ted, as Ted's kind of a big guy. And Toby was absolutely right. The seats are great and they fit both of us perfectly.

And let me tell you, after driving around Baja for over a year on these seats, I could not be happier. Shieldman, Slow Baja approved. Learn more and get yours at shielman.com.