Slow Baja - Sal Fish 1975: The Year That Changed Baja Racing

Episode Date: July 15, 2025

Sal Fish, the Godfather of Baja racing is back for his third conversation on the Slow Baja Podcast. We recorded this one back in March on our way home from the epic Slow Baja Winter Expedition.We gathered to commemorate the 50th Anniversary of the first Baja 1000 organized by SCORE, and personally and painstakingly marked by Sal. The 1975 Baja Internacional and Baja 1000 heralded the dawn of the modern era of off-road racing. Before his joining SCORE, Sal was the Publisher of Hot Rod Magazine at Petersen Publications. He and advertising salesman Bob Weggland raced a Revel Model Company-sponsored Baja Bug in the NORRA Mexican 1000 from 1969 to 1971.Fish will join me on the 2025 Slow Baja Vintage Expedition to share stories from his life in off-road racing. Joining him on the trip are fellow Off-Road Motorsports Hall of Famers, journalist Chris Collard, and mechanic and chief margarita-mixer, Curt LeDuc. Learn more about the Slow Baja Vintage here:https://www.slowbaja.com/adventures/slow-baja-vintage-expedition-1More on Sal Fish and ORMHOF here: https://ormhof.org/sal-fish Get your Baja insurance here: https://www.bajabound.com/quote/?r=fl9vypdv2t Listen to the previous conversations with Sal here:https://youtu.be/uNCqWNMTe3s?si=8AVUBgidk0N-YMnkhttps://youtu.be/xnDq0pL-Y1A?si=PW3kbFDOgjcJ5WWZ

Sal Fish, Slow Baja, Take Three. Hey, this is Michael Emery. Thanks for tuning into the Slow Baja. This podcast is powered by Tequila Fortaleza, handmade in small batches and hands down my favorite tequila. Well, if you've been listening to me for a while, you know I'm an absolute minimalist when it comes to Baja travel. but the one thing I never leave home without is a good old paper map.

And my favorite is the beautiful, and I mean beautiful, Baja Road and Recreation Atlas by benchmark maps. It's an oversized 72-page book jam-packed with details, and now you can get it from me at slowbaha.com. That's right. You can get it in the Slow Baja shop, and in fact, you better get two, one for your trip planning at home, and one for your Baja rig. And if you love Maps and you can't get enough of them like me, let me tell you about two sites I am absolutely obsessed with. Eastview MapLink and LongitudeMaps.com,

whatever you're looking for in Maps, it's there. From the entire benchmark collection to Baja Wall Maps to custom maps, you'll find it all at longitudemaps.com or EVmaplink.com. You know I've long said it. Ask your doctor if Baja's right for you. Well, if you've been hankering to get down to Slow Baja with me, you've got to check out the Adventures tab at Slowbaha.com. All my trips are there, from my famed fall vintage extravaganza

to my winter and summer expeditions, which are open to trucks of any age. You know, on a Slow Baja expedition, your meals are always included, which really does take the sting out of camping. And when we get off the trail, let me tell you, we have the happiest of happy hours. If good dirt roads, private campsites, ranch stays, great food, and great people

sounds like you're kind of fun, well, you've got to check out the Adventures tab at slowbaha.com. But don't delay. These trips are small, they're highly immersive, and they will sell out. And folks, just so you know,

I am always here for you for your Baja trip planning questions. One question, 100 questions. The easy way to get me is slowbaha.com slash contact. And if you'd like to go to Baja and you don't want to go by yourself, you don't have a vintage vehicle, my winter trip doesn't work out for you. I am happy to talk to you about organizing and leading a private guided tour. I've done it.

I've loved it. The pictures are over there at slowbaha.com slash adventures. And you can check them out. And if you've got some questions, let's talk. Coming to you from the Shielman recording booth at Slow Baja Studios. Thanks for tuning in to today's Slow Baja podcast. My heaping dose of gratitude goes out to Noah Culver. If you've seen any of the great stuff on YouTube that's popped up since the Slow Baja

Vintage Expedition last year, that's Noah's work. You've seen the winter expedition. If you've seen this is Slow Baja, that's Noah behind the camera. And he has been really doing some great stuff and telling the Slow Baja story. and I couldn't be more thankful than to have Noah on the team. Today, we're talking to Sal Fish, and Noah shot this conversation, and it was howling winds up at Sal's place. Sal's got a little beach place up at Zuma Beach,

and the wind was just howling, and Noah's such a pro. We got it all buttoned down. It took us a few takes because, you know, the blinds were banging, the wind chimes were chiming and all that. But hey, Noah, I can't say thank you enough for making Slow Baja look and sound great. All right. Today's podcast is with the legend, Sal Fish. It's his third appearance on Slow Baja, and I am so stoked to bring you this conversation.

We're talking about when Sal got tapped by Mickey Thompson to be his president, to be his partner in this new venture called Score. Now, Sal didn't know that he was a 49% shareholder, and Mickey was the ball. But we get into that during the conversation, but Sal is the guy. Sal's the guy who said, you know what? This desert racing stuff is amazing. You know, the plumber can do it. The Johnny Johnson's working out of their garages in La Mesa, California, not a big speed shop someplace like at Indy. You know, just a guy and his wife and his buddies.

They can make a car and they can come out to the desert. There's such an amazing period of growth for the sport, and Sal was at the helm for all of it. And we're going to get into that today because Sal is the bartender of honor on the Slow Baja Vintage Expedition, October 11th through 18th. He's going to be out there camping in the dirt, pouring Fortalaza tequila shaking up margaritas. I can't believe it. Sal's coming with. So if you've got something old, I've still got a spot or maybe two left. Hit me up quick when you hear this.

Hit me up and maybe we can get you into the trip. All right, without further ado, it's Sal Fish. The man, the myth, the godfather of off-road racing, Sal Fish today on Slow Baja. Sal. We're laughing because this is Take Three, folks. We've had some technical difficulties. The wind is howling. We had to shim up a gutter and move some wind chimes.

Zuma Beach is blown out, but I am delighted to be here with my old buddy, Sal Fish. and I hope it's okay to call you my old buddy. Well, the old part is correct. And yes, I think after now the third podcast, actually the first time I met you became buddies. You're not hard to like. We're going to leave it right there, folks. Thanks for listening to the Slow Baja podcast.

And now a word from our sponsor's benchmark maps. Now, Sal, really, it's delightful. The reason I wanted to come and speak with you again, I'm so fascinated by the early days of Baja and Baja racing. But what I find very interesting is how rapidly the sport transformed. So it went from this thing, this happening, where it was just men and machines against the desert. That was 67. And then 68, Wide World of Sports, and it's a big thing.

And it was just a rocket ship, Parnelli Jones and the tube frame race trucks and all that stuff. It was kind of an early trophy truck. And then you and Mickey picked up, 1973, the Mexican government took over Baja Sports Committee. Can you pick it up from there and tell me how you got involved? Because that's really when, in my opinion, modern off-road racing came to Baja. Well, you know, that was a little over 50 years ago. And so you're asking me to rid of the past, but I've never really, you know, when you're doing something, you don't really think about, you might be making history. And that's really what was happening with our sport. First of all, I think the key thing was Baja itself. Baja was just really being discovered

almost besides the fishermen that go down there and the real hardcore, adventurous. The off-road opened the doors and the government saw that the way that they could get tourism down to Baja was by doing it off-road because they really only had one highway and it wasn't complete from Tijuana to Kaba San Lucas. So you needed to go truly off-road. And I think, although I don't think we ever talked about it, I do think Mickey Thompson probably in the back of his incredible mind, he had that same feeling that that's why this sport could grow and be a major motorsports because Baja was a virgin country. It was perfect for what Baja was about, you know, as far as off-roading. I didn't understand that at that time because, as you know,

I came from Peterson Publishing Company. I had an opportunity to race in the Nora races, but I was not a racer, but I fell in love with the country. and the people and that's how Mickey actually convinced me, so to speak, to leave Peterson to join, you know, Score International. And it took not only myself, Mickey Thompson, Trudy Thompson, Danny Thompson, Ted Johnson, Sue Johnson, and my nephew, Paul Fish, Ricardo Soto, Ricardo Diaz, Ricardo Cruz, Mimo Rodriguez, just a lot of people behind the scenes

to bring it to the spot it got to. And now with the new owner, Roger Norman and his wife, Elise, and their group, they've really taken it to another level, you know. And so it's progressed in a way rapidly, but also, you know, it was day in and day out. It was never a job for me. It was a seven day a week of 24 hours of enjoying something.

I never saw it as a job. I saw it as this unbelievable experience to meet new people in a country that was incredible and be with the top of automotive people and industry and technology. And it was just a unique experience, I'll tell you. Well, a couple of things that came to my mind. It's like Mexico City. It's an empire built on an empire, built on an empire, built on an empire. What we see now is 16 empires underneath it from people doing very, very, very hard work to pull these events off and the volunteers and all of the stuff that you were able to bring to it.

Not everybody's going to know who Mickey Thompson was these days, unfortunately. one thing that I think struck me for the very first time hearing you say it. Mickey Thompson, of course, participated in the La Carrera Pan Americana, 1950 to 1954, and that was the Mexican government in those days promoting that they had built a new highway that went all the way down the Pan American Highway. So it went from the very top of the country to the very bottom of the country, linked together so many states, and they used a race over four years to promote that. And Mickey was part of that.

So it must have been in his mind that if they could build a road through Baja, which was happening as he was racing in those early days, and I think the road was finished in 73, opened in 74. Saul's looking. I'm not quite sure when the road open. We're in the... This is what happens when you live long enough, folks. You think which, but let me tell you, I'm going to call David Keir right now, and he's going to tell me it was December of 73 they finished and they opened in 74. But what I'm getting to is before that, Baja was fly-in fishermen.

Obviously people were coming on their boats, but really fly-in fishermen. And then this thing of off-road racing started in 67, 68, 69. It was big. 70, 71. Now, you got involved. 68 and 69? you were in the Well, I raced with Nora

back in 68, 69, 70. And that first race, you told me this, and I'm going to recap it here, you can tell the story about getting down to the hotel before the race started, and you're with your

co-advertising salesman Bill. What was Bill's last name? Bob Wagland. And you guys show up, and you see what the heck's going on in Mickey's room. It's like,

it's got to be like Eisenhower's office, you know, before the D-Day landing. They've got the maps, they've got the reconnaissance, they've got all the notes. And you guys are like scratching your backside saying, what? I thought we just got on the yellow line and drove. Tell me a little bit about that. Well, you know, you really hit it on the head there. Bob Boygan was my advertising salesperson when I was at that time the publisher of Hot Rod magazine. And he had raced in, sports cars in the States. I really did not race. I wrote a motorcycle with some of the drag race guys and things of that because of my relationship with them at Peterson. But I was not a

race car driver. And we did an interview, excuse me, with Ravel model car kits. I had a magazine come down and we shot their Baja bug that they were building as a model car kit at a time. And during that interview, the owners of Ravel said, hey, would you like to drive the car in the Baja race? And I, you know, I'd been to Baja. Well, I'd actually, the first time I'd been to Mexico was in grammar school. I went to Mexico City with a friend of mine,

drove. And then my parents, they bought a new car in 1954. And there was a development in Ensenada on the mountain hill there that they were advertising the LA Times. And my dad and my mom and I decided I had a learners permit that they wanted to drive down to Ensenada in their new 54 Mercury and take a look at what this development was. And so I got to drive the car down there. And that was my first experience. Never.

And you can imagine Ensenada at that time. It was very quaint. It really was a fishing village type thing. And Tijuana was absolutely wild. the dirt road. It wasn't a paved road. There wasn't a toll road or anything. And so how could I even imagine in 1954 that someday I would be,

you know, basically Baja and especially northern Baja and Ensenada would become almost my first home. I spent so much time there trying to figure out what I was supposed to be doing as president of the soft road organization. So it,

It really was infectious to me. It was like getting a shot of, you know, whatever it is, it gets you high. I was so excited about Vaha. And then, lo and behold, you know, how many years later, from 54 to 69, let's say, all of a sudden now, we're driving down there because we figured if we were going to drive a 500-mile course, we ought to be able to drive it from a home in Los Angeles to the start line. And so we drove our Baja Bug from Malibu. Bob lived in the valley.

He came around my house, left his car, and we drove down to Ensenada. And I had to- That was your shakedown and your pre-run. Yeah, for our shakedown. You know, the vehicle, we didn't pre-run. The vehicle was, I think it probably went maybe 54 miles an hour on the highway, and we thought we were really cool, you know. Yeah.

And anyway. We end up in Encinada and Mickey, who had been racing all forms of motorsports. He had his son there and his whole team, and he invited me into their hotel room. And as you said, the walls of the hotel room were just plastered with maps. And they, you know, they said 450 feet, rock, turn right, slow down, look at cactus. Listen, Wiglin and I had the map. that Nora gave us was a single-page map, you know, with this line going down it. And because we just thought we were going to get in the car, look cool, you know,

and we were going to drive the road, you know, and we forgot that there was an off-road involved in it. Well, anyway, that just made it more exciting. You know, we knew we were out of the racing league, but we were going to just go down and have a great time. And we did. We broke, but we had an incredible time. and we got hooked.

And they gave us a vehicle, actually. And Bob was a pretty darn good mechanic, so we kept it as his house. And we used to work on it and do things we did in the spare time. But again, I... You did get a chance to race again, and you did finish, if I recall. Oh, yeah. We raced two, I think it was two, five hundred and two thousands. And we got a third place in one of the thousands.

And the only reason we got that, is the other four vehicles, I think, broke. In your class. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, but it was exciting as can be. And, you know, it was really an incredible opportunity to meet a lot of people.

At that time, I did meet the really movers and shakers of Ensonad and Mexicali. And we just became real good friends and stuff. And your point about the Pan American, and I've never looked at it that way, but when I think about it now, you know, Milton Castellano, who was the governor, that time in Baja. Baja was one state. There was no Baja Suar or Baja, California, just one state. And when he invited Mickey and I to come down to help promote it, he really, I think, probably had that knowledge about the Pan American and say, you know, this is how they opened up a great tourism thing, got a lot of exposure, and him thinking,

me at Hot Rod and Mickey Thompson, a guy that raced in that race and raced in all other forms of motorsports. And he knew what he was talking about, you know, but he didn't, he certainly didn't have in mind that we were going to take over the sport. And Mickey, as sharp as he is, was, you know, when we got back in the plane to fly back from Mexico Alley to Long Beach, Mickey said, hey, you know, I'm going to start this organization, and I want you to become president. You know, I looked at it. I was shocked. You know, he said, no, there's not leaving my, my, my, my, The best job in the world. Yeah, you know.

Hot Rod magazine and everything. Well, you were the publisher. I was a publisher for Hot Rod. Which means you basically were glad-handing people and entertaining. That's what the job was, yeah. And flying all over the world. And making the money, of course. Yeah, yeah.

And, you know, controlling the editorial end of the thing and, you know, everything that went into the magazine, but really more responsible for the business end of the standpoint of getting sponsorship. And Mickey, he knew that, because I would try to, get ads from him and stuff. And he knew that I was very involved with motor sports in all forms because hot rod covered all types of racing. And I was welcomed in Detroit. I was welcome at all the advertising agencies at the motor companies, you know, any car manufacturer, whether it be European or U.S. I knew them, tire companies and all that. So he said, in his mind, you know, he said, hey,

I ought to get this guy aboard, and he could bring in advertisement and sponsorship. And it took him almost a year to convince me that it was a thing to do. And I will tell you, honestly, the first six months of going from wearing a suit and tie to being treated at the finest restaurants and flying first class, it took me about, you know, six months to realize I think I might have made the biggest mistake of my life because I was eating out of a roach coach and, you know, wearing tennis shoes and Levi's, like no suit and tie, not dining in fine restaurants. And it was tough.

It was a real bath of fire for me. And you said that you hadn't owned a car in years because manufacturers would just give you the best of the best of the best. And all of a sudden, Mickey gives you a Volkswagen thing that you're driving an hour and a half each way to work, no windshield down, no doors. That must have been an eye-opener in itself. It really was, and you're right, too. You know, any new vehicle, you know, I'd go back to the proven grounds, you know,

and test the new vehicle, not test them, but take a ride in them and talk about it for the magazine and stuff. So it was a charmed life. And, you know, it was different back then. Remember, we're totally, the automobile. It was the beautiful age of the muscle car and, you know, Detroit, the guys that were in charge of the automobile were racers themselves, enthusiast. It was a total different environment in the automobile field. And I went from getting any kind of car I wanted. I didn't own a car for X number of years

because they just gave them to. It was part of the deal. And when I went to work for Mickey, obviously I didn't have the cars. And he gave me the vote so I could think. They were the official sponsor and our official thing. And that was crazy. driving through Malibu, getting on the 10 freeway, going to Anaheim at 4.35 o'clock in the morning, no doors on the side, no windshield. Do you have a down parka, knit cap?

And, you know, it was just, it was crazy. I relive it. I said, I don't know how I made it through it, but it was fantastic. And then taking it from there, that was where I looked to find the courses and mark the courses with. And it was, you know, and to get Mickey to even do anything. to the vehicles, you know, we didn't set it up like a race vehicle or a pre-runner. It was just a Volkswagen thing, you know. A stock thing.

But it worked. Yeah, a stock thing. And you know what? I got to see the terrain. Yeah. It was a bath of fire. Up close and personal. Yes.

Slowly. You know. But, you know, we, Mickey was such a unique individual. I mean, I know that there's a lot of pros and cons and with people saying things about it. But the guy was a genius. He just was unbelievable. He was hard-headed, strong-willed, you know, my way or the door. You know what I mean?

That kind of guy. He took no prisoners. It was just, it was him. He was a street fighter. He really was, without a doubt. And a genius, so he was always, he never slapped. He was always thinking of something to do and make it better and improve on things. He was running three or four different companies at the time score was going on,

but he loved the off-road thing, and he really did. He put his heart and soul into it. And his wife, Trudey, she was actually my secretary before they got married at Hot Rod magazine. And she was a sweetheart of a person. She was refined as well. Yeah. And had to live the Roach coach life after that. Yeah, yeah.

She was a very classy New York lady. And she was just so nice to the racers and everybody else. can I inject for a second? You would said oil and water. But I kind of see, you never said if you were water or if he was oil or how that worked, but I kind of see oil and balsamic vinegar. You can keep stirring it, but it never really mixes. Isn't that what you guys were kind of like?

You never could really mix it. You're just different. You know, that's interesting, but I'm not going to be contradictory, but I realized that I knew zero about what I was the president of. You know, I don't know. It's a good realization. Yeah, I didn't, I don't know what I was thinking that I was going to come in and all of a sudden talk about technical inspection and talk to people in a foreign country in Mexico,

talk to sponsors. I knew I could talk to them. You know, I talked their language, you know, and race car drivers and motorcycle riders that, you know, and people that were millionaires at that time, and I'm going to tell them this is how they want to, you know, race in our race. So I think I was very, very naive. I really was. But that carrot that he dangled out there, the excitement of this new organization

and off-roading and in Mexico, because, you know, we weren't thinking about California. Well, he was. He had Parker, but we weren't thinking about, he wasn't thinking about expanding. You know, it was Mexico. That was the whole idea. And then, you know, which we haven't talked about. Dancing girls. All the guys playing music. Endless margaritas.

You know, at the time, you couldn't have done things at a worse time. You know, we had the energy crisis. We had just all kinds of crazy things going on. It wasn't a smooth ride at all, you know. But we pulled it off. But back to the basomic vinegar and oil. Oil. Olive oil.

I think, just I think it's because my nature, my family, the way they raised the fish boys, I knew that he was the master. And he knew what he was talking about. And I didn't know what I was talking about. And I needed to be a sponge and learn as much as I could as as fast as I could because I did want to lead this organization. Right. I didn't want to work for Mickey Thompson. I wanted to be the president that he said he hired.

The 49% shareholder president. Yeah. You're not partners. Let me tell you. So it worked out, you know, thanks to my lovely wife, Barbara, that put up with insane. schedule because there was no schedule with Mickey. It was 110%. You were a workaholic.

You were a workaholic. You said his workaholism dwarfed your workahism. Yeah. It really, really is what it was. And that's what it took. But again, I had so many people that loved the sport at that time that helped me out so much. I mean, you know, Walker Revens, Parnelli Jones, Malcolm Smith, all of these guys that were just,

They were at the top of their level in the sport that wasn't even a sport, so to speak. And they were really good to me. And without them, you know, score wouldn't be here today either. They were just hardworking and, you know, the Charlie Engelbart's, you know, an ex-Sharep and his wife that helped out. I just can't name all these people. They were just so great. And I said, without them, that's what it took. And these were volunteers.

They weren't getting paid. They were coming down there and working after they had their real job and just loving, you know, the off-road camaraderie. You know, the family, and it was a family sport at that time, too. It really, really was. I mean, this is an exciting thing to keep the family together. They'd work on the vehicles during the week and go out there and pre-running. Pre-running was as much fun as, well, it was really the most fun. You know, the race was race-face.

They put their helmet on, and they were on a very serious thing. but the pre-running was to go down there, have a great time. Some guys would go surfing while they were down there. Other guys would, you know, great food and get crazy in Mexico. It was great. So it was so different than going to an indie car race or a drag race or a NASCAR race. It was a first-class adventure. Yeah, it really was an adventure.

You know, you didn't go to turnstile or walk and sit in a seat and, you know, watch cars go around. there was no turn style, you know, there was no rounding round. There was not even a course until we laid it out. So it was an exciting time. And you were committed to that. And I think that's where kind of you and Mickey must have diverged. He wanted to be back working as soon as possible, never kind of probably was never where he was when he was there.

He was probably always thinking someplace else. And you saw the capital A adventure of these point-to-point races where, you know, know, things were difficult, but the every man could build his rig in his garage and do it, which the every man can't build an indie car and compete. But an every man can build something and get in a class where he has a chance to win in Baja. And Mickey thought about Baja in a stadium. And as I understand it, you didn't see the same thing. And that's where you were able to diverge.

And he was buying another company and you were able to buy him out. And you were able to take on this project and grow it. But take me back to you in that orange Volkswagen thing with no doors and a salami rolling around under the seat. And now you are tasked with this behemoth of a project to mark a course, to mark a 500-mile course or a 1,000-mile course, or a 1,000 mile course, even though it's only 806 miles or something, but you had to go do it. It was your responsibility. How did you do it?

Hard work, let me tell you. And you know, you're exactly right. You're bringing up some things that, again, first of all, I didn't have time to think about anything other than how am I going to get the Mexican or this rancher to let me get through his property. How am I going to convince the racers? that this is a good course. How are we going to convince these vehicles?

They belong in this class and not this class. You know, there was just so many things going on. And Mickey, you got to remember, I was, I wasn't racing then. I was dedicated. This was, first of all, I couldn't. Mickey was trying to build the ultimate off-road vehicle and compete with people like Parnnelli Jones. So he was still racing, even though he was the owner.

He was the owner, but he was racing. also. So that was kind of weird. And he was making the rules, you know, for four things, because he had this unbelievable mind, technical mind for the automobile and how things work, carbureation, suspension, everything, transmission. You know, he was just full of this stuff. It was unbelievable. So he wasn't, he was focused, but he couldn't run score because it took 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Not thinking about building a manifold or a new set of tires or wheels or a shock company or off, you know, stadium racing. And from the beginning, Mickey said one time, he says, you know, the only people that see this sport are Jack Rabbinson rattlesnakes, the people

out in the desert. And, you know, that was his, and he says, I want to, I want to put this in a stadium because he saw what motorcross was doing. And, you know, Goodwin was doing the motorcross and the college Simpsil. So in Mickey's mind, he knew that this could be big, but it would be with a select group of people, select group of manufacturers running in a stadium type of thing. And after about two, I don't remember, and again, what year that was that we went from Riverside,

which, you know, that was kind of a stadium, but it wasn't. You know, it was enclosed, but it was, you know, it started out was eight miles, and he brought it down to two, then we brought it down to a mile. And it really was a stadium-type thing, but not in an existing stadium.

It was a, you know, Riverside Raceway. So Mickey was always just, you know, at the finish line before he even took the green flag to start the thing, whatever he did. He was just always that far ahead of, everybody you couldn't you just couldn't keep up with him so I really started to get involved you know which I had to I loved it it was very difficult time for my marriage at that time because I was gone I thought I was gone a lot when I was at Peterson but I was continuously gone and there

was no communication when I was with Peterson I pick up the phone and or have my secretary who call and tell Barbara I'm not going to be home well now I'd leave and I didn't even know where I was going. You know, I didn't know when I was coming back. I didn't know how to communicate. There was no phones. There was none of that stuff. So it was tough. It was very, very difficult. And Mickey and Trudy, he had his partner with him. They were inseparable. They were, they went where he went, she went, you know, and they were just, it was that kind of a deal. Barbara had to take care of the household, you know, while I was gone, but she did a great job. And thank God. And she had her job, you know, the director of the Women's Center at Pierce College.

So it was just, I relived these things. I don't know how we made it through a marriage and how I stayed doing what I was doing. I think any normal person would have bailed. And again, the stars aligned. Mickey, he wanted to buy a shock company and he wanted to do this thing about stadium racing. And he wanted me to do that also, not by the shock company,

but take over stadium race. racing too before he started. And I told him flat eyes and Mickey, I didn't leave my job to be a PR manager for 20 superstar racers. You know, I said, what I love is what I'm doing, being in Mexico, doing something with the families, this off-road thing, that's what I want to do, and I want to build that. And, you know, he was going to leave to go by the shock company, and I was still working in his territory, his garage, and he says, I'm leaving for Italy to buy the shock company. He says, go ahead and move, but you won't last six months, you know. It's been a little more than six months.

We're going to take a break right here. Here a word from our sponsor, Baja Bound Insurance. I know you want to go to Baja and see all these places where Sal and I are talking about. You're going to need insurance if you're driving Baja Bound. We'll be right back with Sal Fish. Here at Sloe Baja. we can't wait to drive our old land cruiser south of the border. When we go, we'll be going with Baja Bound Insurance.

Their website's fast and easy to use. Check them out at Bajabound.com. That's Bajabound.com, serving Mexico travelers since 1994. Hey, big thanks to those of you who've contributed to our Baja baseball project. You know, we launched our gear deliveries on my winter expedition. Michael and Matthew from Barbers for Baja. We're along for the ride, and we got to deliver. that critically needed baseball gear up and down the peninsula. It was really, truly amazing.

And on my last trip, I got to go to the state baseball championships and see some of our alums playing, some recipients of the Baja Baseball Gear Deliveries. And congratulations to Guerrera Negro and Mulej, the Ostonaros and the Cardinalitos won silver and bronze at the state championships. Big stuff. It's really fun to be there and fun to see them. All right, well, Please help us continue this vital work. Make your tax deductible donation at the Barbers for Baja. Click barbers for Baja.org. Click the Baseball in Baja link.

And I thank you from the bottom of my heart. I really do. It is so amazingly gratifying to be able to give these kids this chance to keep playing this sport. Keep them on the field. Keep them out of trouble. Please check it out. Baseball in Baja link at barbers for Baja.org. Thank you.

I want to tell you about these new Rocky Talky radios that I absolutely love. Heavy duty, beautifully made, easy to program, easy to use. We had 28 people, 15 trucks on the Slow Baja Winter Expedition. You can hand these radios to anybody from a 14-year-old kid to an 80-year-old, and they'll know how to use it. They are that well-designed. One charge lasted the entire week. We are never out of range.

I happen to upgrade to the accessory whip antenna for my radio and for my sweeps radio, the Donovan Brothers. We were never out of contact. I can't say it strongly enough. Rocky Talky radios, rockytockey.com. Check them out. Slow Baja approved. Hey, we're back with the best hair in Baja right here, Mr. Sal Fish on a very, very windy day on a bluff above Zuma Beach. And we're just talking about you getting started with my.

Mickey and marking that first course. If you can take me back, it's got to be 74 or 75 somewhere in there where you're the guy on the ground, Mickey and Trudier are in the plane. Can you talk a little bit about your primitive but effective communication system? Well, you know, I think it's important, Michael. You know, Perlman and Nora, you know, they had already been down there, right, in the Baja. and they had some courses already laid out. They did a lot of work and spent a lot of time down there.

So I felt that it was our responsibility to not just do what the other people were doing. And when I saw how big Baja was and how open it was, and you could do almost anything you wanted to do back then, I thought, well, I don't want to just copy what they did and run the same course. And Mickey definitely was against that. He just said, look, why do we want to spend time? You know, you're going to be away from the office, you know,

and I don't know why he needed to be in the office. You know, he was looking over my shoulder. And, you know, at the same time, you know, I was putting together a newspaper, the score news. So because of my publishing background. So I was trying to do what I was supposed to do as far as dealing with the Mexican government, the racers, putting out a newspaper, selling advertisement, the rulebook, trying to get sponsors, and dealing with Mickey, you know, and it was never enough.

And occasionally Barbara. Yeah, it was never enough, you know what I'm saying? It was just, it was, it was just pure craziness, I'm telling you. And so when we'd go down, he, he had a plane, and he was a pilot, and what he would do, he lived right there in Long Beach. She was five minutes away from the airport. I lived, you know, a two-hour drive almost from the office. I'd get in my thing.

Drive, I'd head like a day before. I'd head down and sleep before you got Indian Sonata because it wouldn't get a hotel room. Sleep in the open VW right there at the beach, you know, which is now the road, but it was not a road then. And Mickey would get up, go over to the airport in Long Beach, Take him an hour and a half, whatever it is, to go across the border. He had buzz over me, because he could see me sleeping down there. And he'd say, okay, I'm going to go out and look for a new route or new something, rather, outside of Ensenada.

And he said, just follow the route that you have now, that you know where we're supposed to go where Nora went. And then all of a sudden, he'd show up. I was in the middle of the desert out there or on the coast, and he'd circle and he'd draw a little map on a piece of paper give it to truity she would put a rock and something in a in a coke can and it'd fly real low drop the thing i'd pick it up you know look at this this diagram and this is what we would say go a hundred yards well a hundred yards i didn't know a hundred yards from you know a football field whatever the hell is supposed to be and you'll see a cactus that looks like an elephant and go past it and make a left turn.

And there's a trail. And he saw it from the air, right? Well, what you see from the air and what you're on the ground, sometimes they're different. You know, it looked flat. Well, I'd make that left hand turn it. All of a sudden, it'd be a six-foot drop-off.

So it was crazy. I mean, it was really, really, really crazy. And I had, you know, I didn't have a sleeping bag. I didn't know what a rattlesnake was. It was a nutty. experience, but I loved it. I tell you, it just motivated me even more, and I wanted

to do more. I wanted to be better, and I wanted to find courses that would be exciting. And then, the other thing, and how did I know this when I first started? I didn't know it. It took me a while. I'm driving, no four-wheel drive, right? It's an unsuspended

Volkswagen. On skinny little tires. Yeah, on skinny tires, right. Gates tires at the time. You know, because that's what it's a trick, tired of you do. Well, all of a sudden, you've got to realize, wait a minute, trucks are going to go over it. Some have four-wheel drive. Baja Bugs, motorcycle.

So you had to think of a course that everyone would be challenged, but it wouldn't be so challenged that the Volkswagen, you know, stock Volkswagen couldn't get through. And you got to remember after they pre-run what that course would look like. Now, I wasn't not a soil expert. I didn't know what happens to the sand or volcanic rock or cactus best. We couldn't run over certain, you know, we had the environment to look at too, even though it wasn't an issue at that time, but we were conscious about it. So there were just so many things that I didn't go to class,

and we didn't sit, I didn't sit with Mickey that. because he went, either landed at Ensonata and had dinner, and I was sitting out in the middle of the desert wondering what I'm supposed to do because he's going to fly over as soon as it's light. You know, I learned it by just hands on, you know, right there. And looking back, I think that was the best way to do it because there's not a course that I know of that's called, you know, Baha 101, you know. Baja 101 is being out in the desert and being Baja proven, not talk about it, but do it.

What's the distance typically between when you would tie a ribbon or drive in a wooden stake and staple a little arrow to it saying this is the direction? How far would those things be in between? Just want to set up like in a thousand mile course. How many little things did you have to tie on? How many roads did you turn down? and you say, no, we can't use this one. Let's go back. Let's back up. Let's, no, let's go this way. Let's go that way. It must have been excruciating at some points.

Again, if I would have been an intelligent person, first thing I would have done, I would have bought shares and surveyors tape, staple guns and staples and wood stakes. Because I can't tell you how many millions of those I used, okay? And, again, learning how to... I finally realized, wait a minute, I'm going 10 miles an hour because I couldn't... You know, this was off-road. I mean, you know, these guys are going to go 40 miles an hour, 50 miles an hour, 80 miles an hour over what I'm just going 10 miles an hour over.

I'd jump out, tie a ribbon on a cactus, you know, and, you know, I'd be bleeding. You'd see what... It was nuts. But so I had to realize, wait a minute. minute. First of all, it has to be line of sight for the driver, you know, to see this whatever I'm doing, the steak or the arrow or the ribbon. And second of all, it's got to be high enough. So the cattle, because I would find out they would eat it when I'd, as I'd be gone, I'd come

back the next day and there's no ribbon. And I found out two things. So it was either the cattle that ate it. A goat would stand on its hind legs and eat the ribbon or a village. I swear, Mickey. swear, Mickey. I put it up the day before, Mickey. I swear I did it. Or the village, the girls would come out and you'd see them all in the village with the, you know, orange and fluorescent ribbon in their hair. And they go, wait a minute, this is crazy. You know, so first of all, those are things, the only way you could learn it is, or the next day, a guy pre-ran, and he says, Sal, I got completely lost. I said, what do you mean? Everybody says, yeah, but I was going 40 miles an hour.

I blew right by. I never saw it. So if I was lucky, and I'll think about this on a thousand-minute course. I was lucky, and I got up, I'd sleep in my vehicle or on the ground, never would go to a motel, because usually the motel was you'd waste two hours going back to get a room, and then you had to get up in the morning to do it. So I'd sleep on the ground, in the truck, whatever I had at the time. and if I could do 40 to 50 miles a day

marking, of course, that was a good deal. So you leave your office and you got to mark a thousand miles. Think of how many days that is. Insanity. And that's providing you don't have any problems. The vehicle doesn't break. You run out of stakes. You've got to have someone from Tijuana, hopefully that your friend,

Bill Rodriguez's wife, would go to the lumberyard, put him in a back of his pickup, and meet us somewhere down the road and would take those wood stakes. Today, I mean, I think about today, GPS, they don't even mark the course. These guys were all on GPS. We did it by ribbons, arrows, noches, we called them. They were 3M tape that glowed in the dark. And, Terry, I could take you down there right now after 50 years. And I'll guarantee you there's those 3M little sticker this big in cactuses that were this high.

they're that high and you at night I could remember that's where I put that thing so it was but that you know that was fun I wasn't in an office I was out there doing something that was so unusual and I took a lot of pride in it and my nephew Paul did and all the people that helped work for me with me on this they took it too they either they all said oh I want to go down with him mark the course well some lasted one day and they said oh I thought we were just going to go drive the Baja and the others, the good guys, they hung in and they loved it. And again, as I said, without those people, the sport couldn't have grown. So Ramon Castro, famed Baja, said you were absolutely relentless, absolutely relentless, getting those stakes in, tying those ribbons.

What is it, skip it and Mr. Midnight? Is that, is it skip it and Mr. Midnight? Yeah, that was there. Those two names they gave me. And it was because, you know, first of all, I would say skip breakfast, skip lunch, just eat in the truck or whatever you're in and skip dinner because, you know, if you stop, you know, you're wasting time and you're burning daylight, you know, and Captain Midnight, we wouldn't stop until at least midnight, you know, would go just keep marking, keep marking, you had to do it. And also, I would try to, in my mind, figure out when the classes were going to be at a certain spot. If they're going to be there at night, then I've got to put much more nochi, because how are they going to see a ribbon, how are they going to see a stake if the lights right on it? You know what I'm saying? And then you've got to realize no matter how much you're put on as mark in the course, it was never enough because people would run over. the Mexicans, unfortunately, would take it as souvenirs.

The cattle would eat it. All of a sudden, a hurricane would come in. I'd just leave and we have a hurricane. And it just wipes out everything I did. And we had that happen three or four different times. So it was... Insanity. It sounds like I'm whining.

No, it's insanity. I'm not whining, but it was just... And I'm not sure... A Herculean task is what it was. It was a Herculean task. It was. It really, really was. And I couldn't do enough in my mind to make it safe and make sure a person didn't go the wrong way.

Because, you know, you make a wrong turnout there. You could have a real lot of problems. My nephew, Paul, and the people that followed Paul and helped him out did just an outstanding job of the same. Paul had the same, I think, even he's my brother Tom's son, but he had the same. name DNA, DNA, DNA, DNA that I think I have. He just wanted to do it better than what I was doing and make it perfect for the racer, and that was his whole goal. And he even carried a ladder that he'd get out of the, and think about it.

Every time you pound a steak, you know, and they had to be, you know, with the mileage on it, so you would hit a bump, and then the cardboard that we put the numbers, John would spill and we had to get back to an hour with mile 451 or 455. I'm reliving this and I'm going, how did I do this? But it worked. Yeah, obviously it worked and you grew the sport tremendously. One of the things that we touched on once in our conversation or maybe on a phone call, sometimes you felt like the courses went specific ways because there was a restaurant or somebody who liked

there and I want to know about some of the places I bet you can walk into any place in Baja, any restaurant and they're going to know who you are. But did you have some favorite spots? Did the course ever go somewhere because you just like this restaurant?

I'm looking for secrets now. First of all, you know, you got to remember of all the things I said I should be thinking of in doing for a course. One of the things that I didn't mention is anyone can make it a course that no one finishes.

Sure. And that was not our goal. We wanted people to finish the race and say, I beat the Baja. And you had to make a course that chase vehicles could get into. So you can't just wander off into the blue yonder and make this course out in the middle of nowhere, and no one could get in. So we had a challenge of trying to be as close to civilization,

as possible, but make it a challenge. So there was a lot of things going on. As far as restaurants and stuff, yes, there were people that were really nice to score in some of the villages and stuff that had little things. And it was just as easy to make a left-hand turn and come in, and a racer could maybe find someplace asleep, can get some mechanical help, and some food. And I figured, well, we got to look at that, too. And we're helping Baja.

And that was the whole idea of the race anyway, as far as the governor's concerned, to open up the Baja Peninsula for tourism. And tourism meant people coming down and spending money. So why put it out in the middle of nowhere where the person couldn't buy a hotel room or, you know, a tecati or some tequila or some tacos or what have you? So all of those things were part of the mix.

But again, I didn't have a checklist. It just became there. It was, you know, in my brain, I had to, all these things had to be done at the end of the day. Yeah. And at the end of the day, you were the responsible guy with that amazing weight on your shoulders. Again, getting back the idea that I had about this conversation is we were going to get on to the 1975, your first 1,000, your first 500, where you got, where you guys, where you. you're really in charge of this thing. I do want to talk just a little bit more specifically about that.

Do you even remember there was a controversy? I don't remember if it was the 500 or the 1,000. Somebody had to push their motorcycle across the course or across the finish or something. They got disqualified. And Bud and Malcolm won first overall in a buggy. Does that ring any bells for you? Or is there so many finishes that have come and so many controversies that have come. and so many controversies that have come

that it's just like, oh yeah, whatever, I don't remember. Well, you know, first of all, Michael, you got to remember, it wasn't called the 500. We couldn't use that name. It was we named the International because Nora still owned the 500 name. And the reason we were able to use Baja 1,000 because Nora had called it the Mexican 1,000,

and Mickey was the one that came up with the idea where it was called the Baja 1,000 because we didn't want any of that. problem there. So that I recall the first Baha International was a 500 for me.

And I did go out on the course with Mickey and a couple of Mickey's friends because he had people that were his minions that were doing a lot of the work because he'd always have to be back and his son Danny was very

instrumental in those early days and so I knew the course but I didn't know it as that I could you know first of all I didn't know what at the end of the race or during the race what was going to happen you know because first of all you didn't have communication we had checkpoints that you put a stuck stub a piece of paper in a beer can in the in the race vehicle or on the motorcycle let's think about that into the opening like you had a pull tab and he had to put the thing in there. Did somebody's finger ever get to that stuff on that? Yes, they did. And we'd open that can at the finish line and there's a guy's finger in there. I'll tell you. Oh, my stars.

Cans are tougher then. They were much tougher. It was, again, this craziness. And I'm sure that if whoever, all the millions of people that watch your Slobaha podcast are going, what are you talking about? What do you mean? Stuck stub, you know.

So that's how you knew that the people got in the church. We knew there were six checkpoints. He had to have six of these things in there. And then they hit, you know, all the excuses. Well, they hit a cactus and the can was gone. Well, how do we prove that he wasn't there? You know, it was just, it was so crazy. We were making up rules as we went along, but the 500 or the International.

I do, now that you bring that up, I do recall there was a motorcycle incident. But I just don't recall that it changed and put Malcolm in a different position. I really don't. I don't want to have a fact. No, no. And I don't have the fact straight. I've been running some late nights in Baja and there's some very foul weather. But what I was going to get to on that is you've had to make some very, very, very hard decisions.

You disqualified Mickey, who was the owner of the race. Twice. twice yeah Parker I mean yeah yeah but you were the guy you had to make these hard decisions how did that

how did that affect you in your later life I mean do you feel like you know when I was talking to you on the phone earlier and Barbara's interrupting you do you feel like you can say Barbara I'm the boss did it give you like a I was a boss

I was going to say you have a god a secret godfather side of you where you're just boom you're it last word how did you make those tough calls Well, first of all, there was, at that time, back then, there were so many things that were unknown. I mean, you had no way to prove it. You had no way to, it was your word against his word.

Or someone saw this or someone saw that. And you didn't have, you know, instant cameras that people are everywhere. They know everything that's doing. You didn't have cell phones. he didn't have anything. And the thing I remember of that 500 was, and Mickey at that time, he didn't, for whatever reason, he didn't race that race,

because I think it was our first, he wanted to fly over the course. Elf, I know why, because Mickey, again, he was filming himself. He was a filmmaker, too, so he would be flying the plane and filming at the same time, and Trudy would be taking notes. I mean, this is nuts. And so there was a, and race headquarters with the Bayeah Hotel.

And the rumor was, and everyone could, that's where everyone there was radio. And the radio never worked. You'd talk, our radio system, you'd be talking to someone in Seattle. And Seattle would go on a ham operator, whatever, I thought a ham operator was a guy that sold ham sandwiches. You know, I never knew ham radios and stuff. And so he would call his ham buddy and San Diego, who in turn would call our radio operator at the Valle Hotel and say, oh, vehicle number so-and-so went through checkpoint three. And that's how we'd find out where we had no idea where. When they left that starting line, I was totally out of control of anything because we didn't know where they were, what the speeds were, anything was going.

It was all word of mouth or someone knew something and someone was talking to someone else. Well, the word was that Bobby Farrell was in the lead, but he took a shortcut, supposedly. And everyone was on me at the race headquarters. The race wasn't over. Bobby Farrow, no one had even come across the finish line. And they said, well, what are you going to do about it? You know, you got to disqualify. I said, well, I wanted to say, well, what do you mean?

What do I don't know what I'm going to do about it, you know. And I was waiting for my leader, Mickey. He was in the air, who I couldn't talk to, for some advice, what to do. And I said, well, you know, we've got to get the race and figure out what to do. And I was trying to stall time to find out from Mickey what's going on and everything. So I really learned a good lesson there, not to open my big mouth, just to be courteous to everybody, and which was not easy because people would be drinking at the and hot, people get hot about these things.

And really hot and everything. And everyone knew better than the organizer, that's for sure. And so bottom line was Mickey flew, it, came in, and he had it on his camera. He says, I flew over, Bobby. He, there was a herd of horses, or what do you call it not a herd? What are horses?

A bunch of horses, open field, and he went around the horses. he didn't go on a different course or anything. And there's no way, Sal, he did not cheat. And so I said, Mickey, that's the deal. You saw it? He says, yeah. And so that solved that problem.

But it was a bath of fire, as I said before. It just, that was, and I, God, you know, and you never slept. Never slept. I mean, it was, you were up all the time worrying about because people were hurt. This was, people got drunk. They were in jail. Yeah. how the technology now, everybody's in touch.

They got guys live streaming from their trucks at 130 miles an hour. You've got, you know, the weatherman and the evolutions of the weatherman and GPS satellites, all that stuff. But you did it basically, you know, throwing a rock with a Coke can with a note inside of it. It's astonishing. Yeah. And, you know, as much as, you know, I look back at those days and I look at the fact that I could, excuse me, I could look at my phone and I'm not, you know, I wish I had a four-year-old next to me to explain to me how to operate my phone today because they know how to do it and I'm still, you know,

dialing my phone, you know, but anyway, you know, you could look at the score races right now. Look at live coverage of those cars because of the satellite communications that they have. and what Roger and Elise have done for the sport. I mean, it just blows my mind. I mean, in the same breath, I say to myself, gosh, but the adventure. I mean, these guys, they don't even, they don't have to pre-run. They're GPS. They're just, they're like jet fighter pilots, you know, they're all so sophisticated.

The adventure, is it still as exciting? as it was, going out there and saying, I beat the Baja, you know, with your own notes and little things hung on trees that told you to make a right-hand turn or a left-hand turn. And I guess the end result, yes, it is because the sport is growing. It's getting, it always did get good attention, global attention. The media loved it. And we love the media, and I knew the media, because I was part of the media originally, and I think I knew how to massage them, so to speak.

But now it's so spectacular, it's so exciting to be in a score trophy truck going 140 miles an hour over terrain that I went five miles an hour and would break shocks and have flat tires. And these guys are just going like a jet. you know, their suspension, the sophistication is so incredible. The mentality of the driver and the co-driver is super. It really is super. But is it like riding in a cowboy bar, the bull, this electronic bull, or going out in the arena and riding the bull?

I just wonder, you know. And I know I'm not trying to make a comparison, and say one is better than the other. But I do feel that I wasn't put on this earth to do what is being done now. I think my time was really back there in eating the dirt, smelling the flowers, talking to people that I didn't even understand the language and trying to communicate with them. And that was my lifespan date, whatever they call it, that the food is good from here, don't eat it after this. My time was back then.

And I feel longer privileged that I had the opportunity, that Mickey gave me that opportunity. And the off-road community accepted me and allowed me to do what I did for X number of years. and I'm so proud to be able to watch it on television and hear about the sport, what it has done now, and the manufacturers that are coming into it now. I mean, it's not just the out-of-mode industry. That's entire industry that's been built out of this. Yeah, and it's just fantastic. It really is.

And I think in the next few years it's even going to see an incredible more growth and because of technology and people really seeing what the Baja's about. Yeah, well, we're going to leave it right there, Sal. I really appreciate it. But I'm going to pay you one last compliment, courtesy of your friend Eric Solerzano, and I had a chance to talk to him at the Off-road Motorsports induction where he became a Hall of Famer. He said to me, there's the music of the 70s and there's the Sal Fish score of the 70s,

and that will never be surpassed. I mean, he said that. Yeah. Wow. Anyways, thanks, Sal. It's been a real delight talking to you. Thanks for making some time for us today. Thank you very much, Mike.

It's always a pleasure. And I look forward to seeing your other podcasts. I do actually watch them, and I think they're exciting. And you talk to some unique people. So thank you. We've got Noah on the cameras today. They're getting better and better, and I'm delighted to have Noah with me. So anyways, we've got a little bottle of Forteilator there.

I don't know if, well, Noah's breaking things down. you and I can have just a little, little teeny taste, and we'll get out of here. Definitely. All right. That's all. Thanks, Al. Thank you. Hey, well, I hope you liked that one.

I certainly did. We had a lovely Fortaleza afterwards. I don't know how to pour it. Let me tell you, he knows how to pour it, and I can't believe he's going to be out there on the trip. Poring with me, October 11th through 18th, folks, if you've got something old, something cool, something 30 years old, hit me up quick. So I've only got one or two spots left. Hey, if you like what I'm doing, if you like meeting these people at their, folks, folks, homes, taking down their wind chimes, taping up, shibbing up gutters that are humming with 50

mile an hour winds blowing outside. You've got to support the show. Drop a taco in the tank. You do that at slowbaha.com slash donations. And if you don't have any tacos, I certainly understand. I'm not giving you any slack, but I understand if you don't have any tacos, well, drop a five-star review on Apple or Spotify or wherever you're listening to Slow Baja. Tell folks, how much you love the show, how much you love these conversations. And I got some stuff in the shop. It's summertime. I got white shirts.

They're back. That's right. White pocket teas, haines, beefy teas. Printed on both signs. They're in the shop. And maybe, maybe if I ever get a break, I'm going to put up all those new foam fronts. Got five different styles of foam fronts that are going to be in the shop soon. So take a look at that.

I've got benchmark maps in the store. All the stickers, all the cool stuff, black teas. magnets, pins, shot glasses, whatever you got, it's there. Support, slow, Baja is the point. And I'm going to get out of here. But first of all, I'm going to tell you about off-road motorsports Hall of Famer, Mary McGee. You know, she had a pal Steve McQueen. Steve loved Baja.

He really effing loved Baja. And you know what he said? He said, Mary, Baja's life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting. You know, people always ask me, what's the best modification that I've ever made to slow Baja? Without a doubt, it's my Shielman seats. You know, Toby at Shield Man USA could not be easier to work with. He recommended a Vero F for me and a Vero F XXL for my navigator, Ted.

His Ted's kind of a big guy. And Toby was absolutely right. The seats are great and they fit both of us perfectly. And let me tell you, after driving around Baja for over a year on these seats, I could not be happier. Slow Baja Approve, learn more and get yours at shieldman.com. You know, I'm all about keeping things simple, travel and light, and finding the really good stuff. And that's why I've been wearing iron and resin for years. It's not just clothes.

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