Slow Baja - Sal Fish The Godfather of Off-Road Racing

Episode Date: December 24, 2022

Sal Fish is the beloved Godfather of Off-road Racing and former President of SCORE International. He was born and raised in Los Angeles, the son of a humble and kind auto mechanic, a loving mother, with a Sicilian Grandmother at home who only spoke Italian. His parents scrimped, saved, and sent Fish and his three brothers to the Roman Catholic, college-preparatory Loyola High School for boys. Sal was class President but freely admits he was not a very good student. The Jesuit education system served him well, and he was accepted “under probation” at the University of San Francisco. At USF, his charm and drive carried the day. He excelled in making connections. Soon, Sal was on the basketball team’s coaching staff, eating and drinking for free in North Beach, and had an apartment above the embalming room of a prestigious neighborhood mortuary. He even had a “no-show athletes job” at a brewery, where he punched in at the beginning of the week and returned at the end of the week to collect a paycheck and two cases of beer. With all the fun he was having --by his own admission, he barely managed to graduate.  After surprisingly being declared 4F by the Army, Sal returned to Los Angeles to work with his father in his auto repair business. He attended carburetor, brake, and transmission school and did his best to give his father a rest while he ran the shop. A body surfing buddy saw Sal’s secret strength and offered him a job selling advertising for Car Craft Magazine. His father was thrilled to get him out of the shop. Sal was a natural salesman, rapidly rising through the ranks of Petersen Publishing, and soon became the Publisher. Through his travels with Hot Rod magazine, Sal and ad salesman Bob Weggeland landed a VW Beetle and an entry into the 1969 NORRA Mexican 1000. In our conversation, Sal recounts the experience --a hilarious story of ignorance, perseverance, survival, and a heaping dose of luck. After breaking their transmission, Sal and Bob flagged down the crew of actor and racer James Garner and got a tow to the checkpoint at Lake Chapala. --“We went faster on a tow rope than we had been going in the race.”  Racer and entrepreneur Mickey Thompson recruited Sal as a partner soon after he created SCORE International in 1973. By 1974 Sal and Mickey were hosting the Baja 1000. He used his people and publishing skills to grow the organization rapidly. Eventually, he took over SCORE and bought Thompson out. In the process, Sal realized Thompson’s vision to make off-road racing as big as NASCAR. Sal sold SCORE in 2012. Active and fit, he enjoys living in Malibu and spending time with his wife of nearly 50 years, Barbara. The couple has a second home in La Paz, where Sal enjoys kayaking and entertaining his many Baja friends. A special thanks to Lyman Scherer for connecting me to Sal.

Hey, this is Michael Emery. Thanks for tuning into the Slow Baja. This podcast is powered by Tequila Fortaleza, handmade in small batches, and hands down, my favorite tequila. Hey, I want to tell you about your new must-have accessory for your next Baja trip. Benchmark Maps has released a beautiful,

beautiful Baja California Road and Recreation Atlas. It's a 72-page large format book of D.E. detailed maps and recreation guides that makes the perfect planning tool for exploring Baja. Pick yours up at Benchmarkmaps.com. Hey, I just want to let you know I am super excited to bring you today's show with the godfather of off-road racing, Sal Fish. But before we jump into that, I need to say thanks to Limon Scher for connecting me to Sal.

Some of you may know Liman. He's a pretty well-known guy, Baja loving car builder and restorer based down in Arizona. I first met him in 2018 when the fabulous Kelly Witten was running the, the Copper State 1000, and I was lucky enough to be driving a beautiful Dotson 240Z in that amazing event. Datson, a Datsun, as Mary McGee would say. At the beginning of this year, Lyman was prepping Big Oly for its run in the Slow Baja Safari class, and I happened to be down in Arizona watching my son Rob in spring training, so I reached out, and Lyman was so generous, had me over to the shop, showed me Big Oli up close and personal, every little detail, and even

invited me to stick around for the weekend where B.J. Jay Jones was going to be giving it its first shakedown run. It was amazing. Anyways, for lovers of off-road racing, Sal Fish needs no introduction. In our conversation, we go deep into his life before he became a legend. We hear about his childhood growing up in L.A., the son of a kind and humble auto mechanic father and a loving stay-at-home mother, parents who pushed Sal and his brothers to strive for a better life.

They stress the value of a college education. In fact, we go pretty deep into Sal's days at University. University of San Francisco. He was there at an amazing time. By his own admission, he had an amazing time when he was there. I'd hope to get Sal on as my 100th Slow Baja conversation. That honor befell Coco, R-I-P Coco, but I put our conversation off until my move to Chicago was complete, and I could really make some space for a serious discussion. And Sal invited me to stop by his place in Malibu on my way back from the Nora 500. And as you know, Guests on Slow Baja usually receive a benchmark map Road and Recreation Atlas, but since Sal is a noted tequila

aficionado, I brought him a bottle of Forta Léza Blanco. Well, we sipped a little after I stopped recording, and I hope to get them back on the show as soon, as I think we talked for more than an hour, and we only got up to 1969. So anyways, without further ado, I bring you my new Amigo, Sal Fish, the godfather of off-road racing. Well, hello, Amigo. Hi, Michael. How are you? Great. I should say, want to start this. Yeah, it's a beautiful morning here in Malibu.

Spectacular. The sun's going to come out in a few minutes, still a little gray out. And I'm with the godfather of off-road racing, and I'm just thrilled to be sitting here with you, a couple of microphones. And I really just want to get the great history that you've lived firsthand and get it for the slow Baja audience and get it for posterity. So, Sal, thanks for having me. Well, Michael, thank you. And I'd like to thank you very much for the opportunity to be on your podcast. I know it's a global event and just a few, let's say, hours we've had before we're starting this. It was a pleasure hearing some of your background. And I'm just wondering how I'm going to be able to interview you for your podcast. So your listeners will hear what

an exciting life you have. My God, it was just, you know, you had me in awe. This is how Sal does it. He starts with flattery and then he just comes in hot. Well, we'll get to you interviewing me later. But I really am touched. I've done a lot of research on you since we first met at the Nora Mexican 1000 last April, and we're here at the beginning of October. So we met a few months ago. And I really was taken by the conversation we had. And it was just a casual conversation. We sipped a little Fortaleza. We talked about your days in USF University of San Francisco. And you really, you were at that school at probably the pinnacle of its worldwide acclaim for basketball, Bill Russell, RIP, who's passed away, sadly. But a great time to be

in San Francisco. a great time to be at that school. And it got me thinking about the arc of your life. So you start off born in 39. That's correct. In Los Angeles. That's correct. Son of an immigrant.

Well, his parents. His parents. My dad actually was born in Los Angeles. My mother's mother brought her over from Sicily to New York, had her in New York, and left her there after she was only two months. because she couldn't stand America and left her with her husband, her mother's father, who spoke very little English, and he was commissioned by one of the famous big department stores. And I don't remember the name at the moment in New York.

And he did gold leafing on frames, picture frames. That was his artistic thing. And so he raised my mom, and they left. New York to come to Los Angeles when she was about one years old. And so you could say both my parents were, you know, born in best in the United States. And the rest of the family was from Sicily. So, but, you know, it is kind of amazing thing because not too many people started off what you just said about Bill Russell. and coach Phil Wolper.

There were a phenomenal thing. Unfortunately, the scandal that happened with the payoffs at the University of San Francisco, which is a Jesuit college, which was the farthest thing in the world. You'd think that the Jesuits and the Catholic faith would be doing something like that.

But I'm not sure if the powers to be at the school really realized it. But the whole of the University of San Francisco, thing is you're saying it was the most unique place to be at that time and especially San Francisco itself. I went to grammar school here in Los Angeles, Catholic school, the sisters of St. Joseph of Cronolette, then I went to Loyola High School, which was a Jesuit school. And so I have quite a few years of Catholic education. And I had, without a doubt, probably the greatest parents a kid could ever wish for you know my dad had an automobile repair shop in

Los Angeles my mom was a homemaker because I have three brothers two were older and one younger the my oldest brother was about seven years from me then the next one was six and then Anthony my youngest brother was ten years difference between me so we had a very unique nice family that loved America my grandmother who would not speak English, lived with us. My mother and father took care of her and she was always wanting us to speak Italian. Our parents wanted nothing to do with them speaking Italian, wanted to, we were in America and you spoke the language of America. So I was blessed, you know, having a good grammar school and good high school education and great brothers and mom and dad. But the unique thing

was I really wasn't a student. My two oldest brothers were fantastic. My oldest brother actually ended up going to the seminary and he had about a half a year. He was in Spain, Burgo Spain, becoming a priest. He had about a half a year to go. And he decided, you know, what, he didn't want to be a priest. So, and can you imagine, you know, every Italian family knows that one of their sons is going to be the pope, you know, and here was our answer to it. And my grandmother about died on the spot when she felt he wasn't. But he turned around, came back to Los Angeles, did the same thing with dentistry.

He decided he was going to be a dentist. In about six months before he took his final exam, he just said, no, he didn't want to do that. He went in the service. And the only reason I'm talking about this is I think he was a role model for me. I mean, it's just a great human being, but he was very intelligent. He spoke seven different languages and became a very noted attorney.

here in Los Angeles and just a great brother. My next brother, Tom, same thing. He went to Vietnam and then came home and became a Titan in a company called Universal Match Corporation and traveled the world. And it was not only about matches. They did pumps for all major construction stuff and everything.

He sold pumps in China and everything before you're allowed to go into China. So I had a real role model. But growing up here in Los Angeles, my dad had his automotive repair shop, and he did not want any of us to become mechanics. He wanted us all to have a college education, and all of us didn't get college educations. And he wanted us to do something other than being a mechanic.

And that's nothing against being a mechanic, but he wanted his kids to have a college education. And so I wouldn't say I was a gearhead at all. I saved $400 by having about three different jobs when I was in high school so I could buy my first car, which is a 47 Ford convertible. And I got that when I was 14, so I had a year and a half to work on it, which I did. I took it down to my dad's garage and I pulled on the weekends and sometimes after school pulled the incident apart. And I wasn't, as I said, a gearhead. but my dad and the mechanics that worked for my dad helped me.

And I rebuilt that engine and polished and hand-touched every part of that car. And I can remember we lived on Santa Barbara and Western, which is now Martin Luther King Avenue, and it wasn't too far from the Coliseum. And I could ride my bike from there to the Coliseum, and I can back up my car in the driveway. And I couldn't, my mom and dad wouldn't let me put a tire out. on the street because it wasn't legal you know and so I had a year and a half of just

backing up and going forward and dreaming the day that I'd get my learners from it and someone would come with me and I'd be able to drive and that was the extent of my really mechanical ability so to speak and then I it was time to graduate and this 57 and you could if you're an old timer listening to this you know Southern California and northern Caldea, Florida really could have been two states because we were still hanging people in streets back in the 40s and 50s.

And it was Cowboys and Indian type thing. San Francisco was the financial center of California. Guys wore suits and ties. Women wore hats. And they went to the... And white gloves. You were exactly right. And they went to the office.

opera and you know Southern California was looking at you know Tom Mix and Flash Gordon movies and kind of in Hollywood kind of stuff so I didn't know what I was going to do I really didn't have the grades to get into college but the president of Loyal High School at that time and if you know anything about Jesuits they're not your typical Catholic educator they're usually guys that went out and in the world and later on in a lot of found their calling to be with, you know, religion or instructors. And the president at that time was an ex-marine and he was a Jesuit. And he called me in before I was going to, we graduated and said, you know, I've got a friend that's the president of the University of San Francisco.

And I think he'll do me a favor if I give you a letter of recommendation because I could, to be honest with you, I couldn't get into any college. I don't care what it was. And I didn't know what I was going to do. I had no clue, really. I, I could. figured, well, I'll keep on his body surfing at the time, and I thought that was the whole other end of life. And he wrote a letter to the president of the University of San Francisco, and they actually took me up there on probation, that if I could get a C average, I can continue going there.

Well, no one from Southern California, or especially Loyola High School, went to the University of San Francisco. So they either went to Gonzaga, Berkeley, or Stanford, or Santa Clara. And so I was the first individual to go from Loyola High School to the University of San Francisco. And I just packed up. I had a Baja bug at the time. I packed it up, and my folks were just blown away that I was going to leave down. I said, well, I'm going to go up there and try to make it.

So I drove up to San Francisco, and it just was just such a beautiful city. And I lived in the dormitory there for the first six months. And it was a very unique school at that time. It wasn't the school it is today. You know, there's a lot of older people going to school there. It didn't have the academic. I don't think standards at the time was a world-class university. And the people of San Francisco really supported it.

And it was running on the most beautiful spots in San Francisco there on Golden Gate and Masonic. Yeah, but even if you were smart and went to St. Ignatius High School in San Francisco in those days, the smart kids ended up at Santa Clara. That's correct. Yeah, you ended up at USF if somebody was talking to one of the brothers or needed to do a favor. I don't mean that in a derogatory manner. I don't, you know, my wife hates to, it's the hometown school. Yeah, hates to hear this story because she's an educator and it embarrasses her when I tell her about, you know, how I really wasn't a student. You know, she knows who I am.

But so I, excuse me, I just, for some reason or another, I got in with the, you know, there was, I think there was, Phelan Hall was the name of the dormitory there. And the basketball coach then it was Phil Hall. Wilpert and I played basketball, excuse me, in Loyola High School. And you know, you could see me now. I've shrunk two inches. I was five feet ten, so no big deal. I was a shooting guard, you know, so I. But not six foot ten. No, not six foot. I didn't shrink that much. You know, so anyway, bottom line was during the day after a class or something, I'd go over to the gym and sat around and watched, you know, Wilpert and Mike Farmer and Casey Jones and play ball and everything. And I met Phil Warpert, the coach.

And the, quote, Athelake trainer, I met him for some reason because he saw me in the gym, and I'd kind of help him with the balls and then I could take some shots and stuff. And he says, you know what, why don't you help me out? I'll show you how to do sprained ankles and stuff like that. Next thing I know, I'm working with him as the, quote, assistant athletic trainer. And then Phil Warp with the scandal happens. He leaves, and a gentleman by the name of Pete Palletta and his wife,

a very nice young couple, he becomes the head coach for basketball at the University of San Francisco. Now, they were on the downside because they've just been out of the tournament. they wouldn't let them play anymore because of the scandal. And Phil had to, well, Pelletta had to build up the credibility of the university. And we hit it off just fantastically. And next thing I know, I'm sitting on the coach's bench with him, acting like I'm with him about plays and looking at the game and everything.

And I traveled with the basketball team. We went all, you know, in any games at Rout of town, I went, you know, and I was with them, and I was still going to school. But to be honest with you, for some reason or another, the athletic program there meant a lot to the university. And next thing I know, I was spending a little more time in the basketball end of it than I was with my actual academic thing. And I'm not saying anything against the University of San Francisco because it's embarrassing to say this. I really was not, I did graduate, but I graduated because of my ability with the sports team there. And I matured in San Francisco that one of the gentlemen that was the head of the, he was called a prefect at that time, he was an older guy, but he was going back to school in San Francisco.

And so he was the head of my floor, which is like the third floor of the dormitory. And he was a bartender in San Francisco. And he knew, as you know, at that time, 57, San Francisco was still basically North Beach, Italian influence. The bars were fantastic. They didn't have the Hollywood, L.A. stripper joints up there. And that was really real bars. You know, you walked in, you rolled for a drink, you know, or you flipped a coin for a drink, and you got hors d'oeuvres free. and the restaurants and everything.

So he introduced me to his friends who were all bartenders and waitresses. And I got him with a very unique group of San Francisco people and fell right in with them as a Southern California. They thought I'd have cowboy boots or, you know, or I was a used car sales

when one of the two being from California, Southern California rather. Anyway, I just fell in love with San Francisco. And so I was living in the dormitory trying to go to school, traveling with the basketball team, enjoying San Francisco, and they had alumni association,

and the owner of the most, don't laugh, but prestigious mortuary in the northern hemisphere called Curran English, was on the corner of Golden Gate and Masonic, which at that time was just four blocks away from Hate Asbury, the whole hippie movement was in free love and everybody was smoking dope and jumping rope and having a great time.

And he said, you know what? He says, as part of the program, if you'd like to not live in the dormitory, I have a suite above the mortuary. Nice and quiet. I'd love to have you up there, you know, as part of our alumni program. And so, boy, here I am. I'm going, I'm going to have a, it was a duplex, kitchen and everything. I was the only guy there. I lived above the embalming room, you know.

which was incredible. You can't make this up, folks. Then another alumni, because I was now with the alumni association because I was in the basketball deal, said, you know what? You could use some extra money, right? And I said, yeah. And he says, well, I want you. We've got a brewery down near the airport.

Want to introduce you down there. I'll drive you in. You show up on Monday. Sign in, but you don't need to come back because you have to study and you have to do with the basketball team. and then show up on Friday after 3 o'clock, you'll get your paycheck and two cases of beer. So I'm living, you know, almost like I'm on a scholarship, and I can't even figure out how I'll get a C average to stay in school. I'm getting paid, and I'm getting two cases of beer, and I'm traveling with the basketball team. Plus, I'm meeting all of the cool people in San Francisco.

So I just was, I mean, seriously, it was probably the most exciting time anyone could imagine it because I was maturing and growing up in just the most wonderful city in the world and meeting just, I could walk into any bar, restaurant at any time, and sit down and give me a free drink or a lunch or anything because I was friends of that group. So my life up there was spectacular. I mean, and I really met people. that I think besides my parents and my brothers gave me a real I think different perspective of life and manners and ambiance and cuisine and just things that I don't

think I would have gotten in Southern California in the group I was with you know yeah and let me say something about that you've been so deprecating about your grades, maybe you've never realized you got straight A's in the people business, which is what served you for the rest of your life, the people business. You understood how it works. People made you feel welcome. You've made people feel welcome for the rest of your days in your in your life. So let's let's jump ahead. They bestowed a they bestowed a diploma upon you and then you had to do something with it. So how did that chapter begin to unfold?

Well, I'm going to have to regress just a second. In those travels, we did go to the University of Hawaii and paid the base there. And I met the commander of the sub-pack base in Hawaii. And he said, you know, you're going to graduate at the end of the year. And I said, yes. And he says, well, you know, you're going to get drafted, right? And I said, I guess so. And he says, well, before you get drafted, come to Las Alamedas,

there's a hub pack base there sign up for four years as soon as you do that I will send for you you could live off base you won't have to wear a uniform in Hawaii and travel with the team and I said that's great so I graduated from the University of San Francisco drove home stayed at home because I was living with my parents then right got out of school and waiting to go down and do this interview and joined the Navy down there. And I was, there was a little downtime because I hadn't got the drafting papers yet, so I didn't want to rush the thing. And in the meantime, I was going down to 22nd Hermosa Beach, Body Surfing. My dad was getting up at 5.30 in the morning, going to his shop on Vermont and Worcester Boulevard, and opening a shot. Well, after about three weeks of me

living at home and seeing what he was doing, I said, you know what? Why don't I go down and help you, Dad, and see if I could help out? And he says, no, you don't, I don't want you to do that, blah, blah, well, I did. Ended up doing that. Then I went down while I was working at my dad's to the Las Alameda space, took the physical, and I was so excited because, you know, I'd be going off to Hawaii. Well, I was 4F. And I couldn't believe it. I said, wait a minute, I want to go on the You've got a plan. It's a good one. What are you talking about?

I'm four of. And they go, no, you've got an albumin in a kit in your kidney, and you need to see a specialist. And it was just, I was so bummed out. I couldn't, because I felt great. You know, I couldn't believe it. And it was just, I think, the tough life, exciting life. I was living in San Francisco drinking, having a great time. You caught that at the Basque Hotel.

Is that where you caught that? Yes. At the Blue Fox, maybe? Yeah. Oh, you name. Paoli's you name. I mean, you know, San Francisco was incredible. I mean, it really just, you know,

and the condor before it became Carol Dode's, that was the real mafia Italian thing. I used to go in there, just knew all the guys had great, great times. They used to do everything there was. So bottom line was, I was 4F. I just was in a bummer, and the next thing I know, you know, I go to Rochester Carborder School, I go to transmission school,

I go to Benix-Bray School. I'm working to my dad as a mechanic. And, you know, before I was wearing a suit and tie and being Mr. Cool, and now I'm in, you know, a mechanic outfit, getting greasy and everything. I really wasn't a mechanic, but I was kind of, I could do break work. I hated transmission work. It was way over my head, you know. And I kind of managed my dad's garage and let him ease up a little.

So I lasted, let me say, I was 61 to about four years or whatever it was. I kept on Sunday morning. I'd go to the beach and surf with some guys. And one Sunday, one of the new guys that came into our group was Dick Day, and he was the publisher of Carcraft Magazine at Peterson. And about two Sundays after meeting him and talking to him and becoming kind of friends, he said, you know, I don't think you're a mechanic. He says, you want to be an ad salesman.

And I said, well, I'm certainly not an ad salesman. I have, because I have a degree in industrial relations, right? I said, I have no idea. And he says, well, I'll teach you. And I went back and told my dad, he was so happy to hear this. He said, Sal, God, it's not that I don't want you in here, but you need to do something better than being what you're doing here. And so I went to Peterson Publishing Company, suit and tie.

He was a very good day. In fact, that, you know, Bob and Marjor Peterson were really involved. in the publications and were hands-on people. And Dick introduced me to them right away. They took a liking to me. As far as I'm concerned, they were my second parents. They just really, and the next thing I know, as an advertising salesman in Southern California,

we had seven different offices around the U.S. And, you know, you only handled a territory in your division, which was Southern California. And Dick and I got along as the public. publisher and obviously advertised sales, I just took to it. It was just fantastic. Here I was meeting Edelbrock, Offenhauser,

Escondaren, Moon, Weber, Sheifer, all the names in the automotive field, you know, and going to the drags, because Carcraft was the drag racing magazine. At that time, you know, there was Orange County. There was, what, 10, 15 drag strips in Southern California. I'd go to the drags every weekend that we were there, then the nationals.

And I met all the different manufacturers and everything. And I really brought up the ad sales for Carcraft. Hot Rod was the flagship in Teeing Magazine for Peterson. But Hot Rod, the salesmen were, you know, they were just, I call them transit. People would call them to get an ad. You didn't have to go sell them. Carcraft, you had to go sell an ad. So I really got involved with

Editorial because I'd bring an editor with me And we'd say look God, this is a great widget that the guy was building in his Garage and so we could do a story on this But we need an ad now that was not the way you're supposed to sell ads But that's what we did It's funny how that's worked for the rest of that time forward now Advertorial is kind of how it happens these days Exactly right well we're ahead of the game there so from there

I did such a great job Peterson brought me up to be to a salesman at the show to the show to the big league at Hot Rod magazine and when that happened for some reason it was a little

tough on some of the other salesmen because they were saying why are you getting to do these things and go to the auto show in Detroit or New York because they weren't they just stay in their own territory and that one I was introduced to the manufacturers in Detroit, the automobile, manufacturers, Penske, DeLorean,

Hearst, Shifters. And I was in that circle as an ad salesman because of Dick Day. And Dick Day then became the publisher of Hot Rod. And so I worked directly with him and Mr. Peterson. Peter was just great with me. They were super people. They'd bring me along to social events and stuff like that. Then all of a sudden I became the publisher.

Carcraft, then the publisher of Hot Rod, and that opened my whole horizon, because Ann Peterson's whole idea was entertainment. And being a publisher, I was really, I didn't do the articles. I had photographers, artists, editors, and things like that. I just was a front guy, so to speak, entertaining, taking potential sponsors because they're my ads, and an ad and Hot Rod was expensive, you know. And so I traveled basically the world, you know, to going to the manufacturers in Europe, to going to all the manufacturers in the United States, seeing how cars were built, seeing how carburetors, everything like that. But it was an incredible opportunity. During that, and plus, I was on the weekends when they'd have a drags here and they were over, like Perdon

and Landy and McCune and Sox & Martin would ride dirt bikes on the weekend. And, together. So I got into the dirt bike situation and met some people in the motorcycle industry besides the ones I'd meet in the advertising sales. During that time, we did a couple articles on Mickey Thompson, on his manifolds and his wheel company and his tires. And I met Mickey, myself personally at that time. And I wouldn't say we became friends, but we were socially I'd see him in a lot of, I'd see him at the drags, I'd see him at Bonneville, I'd see it in India, I'd see him at Daytona, and we'd always say hello and stuff like that. And then I hired a lady, go ahead.

I was just going to say, I believe you said you were like oil and water. Well. The two of you. And before we get any further on Mickey Thompson, I'm just going to say, let's take a quick break right now. Let my listeners take a deep breath before we're back with Sal Fish. Here at Slow Baja, we can. can't wait to drive our old land cruiser south of the border. When we go, we'll be going with Bajabound Insurance. Their website's fast and easy to use. Check them out at Bajaubound.com. That's

Bajaubound.com serving Mexico travelers since 1994. Hey folks, you know, I'm always telling you, ask your doctor if Baja is right for you. Well, I don't know what your doctor's going to say, but I want to let you know right now, it's the open enrollment period for the 2023 Baja Exile That's right. If you need a little Baja care, you got to get in right now during the open enrollment period for the 2023 MahaXL rally. February 17th through 26th, it's 3,000 miles in 10 days. It's a minimal assistance rally. That means there's no rescue trucks or no medical helicopters or no travel guides. You get to rely on your own wits and resources and probably the other 150 or 180 vehicles that are in this rally with you who are always nice and willing to tow you out or give you a ride to the auto parts store or the mechanic or whatever you need. But hey, the Baja XL is open to anyone by anything. So if it's street legal, you can drive at their classes. There's a competition class. If you want to get in and solve geotagging, treasure hunt questions all day and all night, there's the 4x4 touring class that Slow Baja does,

where we just pull out our benchmark map first thing in the morning, get some maca, get some egg, some hot coffee, take a look at where the route ends that day and figure out what the most scenic squiggly dirt roads are on our map, and that's how we do it. Again, there's no judging. It's a heck of a lot of fun. It's a major league adventure, and it will certainly, certainly cure your symptoms of mild, seasonal lack of adventuring. All right. Ask your doctor if Baja is right for you. The Baja XL rally more info at BajaxL.org. or feel free to DM me through slowbaha.com or the Slowbaha Instagram or Facebook sites for more info. All right.

Well, we're back with Sal Fish. We're sitting in his pad here in Malibu. It's a beautiful day. And we're talking about Sal meeting Mickey Thompson, the legend Mickey Thompson. Now, he's raced everything. That's right. At that time, he was not only a legend, he was just a unique individual. I mean, it was a very, you know, most of the people that I met in the automobile industry,

well, first of all, think about it back then. We're talking about, you know, in the mid-60s, okay? And Southern California was a hotbed of what was going on. And, I mean, you had straw. And, I mean, just, I can't even begin to tell you all the names of the people that were, and I knew them all because, you know, being at Hot Rod magazine, and they were all friends of mine, and it was just exciting as can be to be in that thing.

And I became, you know, just, I mean, I loved racing, and I loved the whole thing, you know. I was not a racer per se, because I didn't grow up that way. I was not a mechanic, really, but yet I was in the heart of what was going on. You know, it couldn't have, it was just excited as can be. And it was a lot of work, though. There was no question about it.

You know, I mean, and I loved it because I didn't see it as a job. It was just exciting as it's going to be. Meeting these people, people that are on, you know, racing on the weekends or in the newspaper. And here, I'm going to lunch with them or dinner or I'm shaking hands at the start line at Indy with them. So I met racers. I met the manufacturers. I met sponsors. People at B.F. Goodrich, all the tire companies, anything to do with the automotive industry.

And, you know, sponsors that were buying ads in that marketplace, you know, that were not automotive. orientated but had something to sell, you know, Wranglo jeans or Levi's or a liquor or whatever that would entice that age group. And so then I met all the heads of the different advertising agencies in New York and New York, excuse me, Detroit and Los Angeles, became very good friends with them because, you know, we were putting presentations together with them and they were buying into stuff. And it was just breed, love. I mean, the people were unbelievable that I met. And we just became really, really good friends. It wasn't just a business thing. It was a friendship thing. And Mickey Thompson was like a super

entrepreneur. Mickey, not only was he a highly qualified racer, setting speed records, Mexican road race, all that stuff, but also figuring out what's the angle, how do I make some money on this, what's the business? And so what happens when you, when you, when you, when you, to me. Well, that was something I picked up on Mickey right away. He wasn't just a driver. He was an over-the-top thinker and engineer, and he was a hands-on guy. He knew things that, you know, shocks, suspension, carbureation, the things that he did were so far in advance, but he was a unique. he was a you mentioned earlier the difference between south fish and miki thomasa was like oil and water but those were your words yeah yeah you brought it back up but i and i'm not saying that in a negative

way he was a street fighter he was born in the streets he grew up in the streets and he was so out of place uh in a when i say out of place in my mind his um personality because he was he was he was was a rough guy. And when you go with the people at the automotive industry in Detroit, these were, you know, graduates from universities, they were engineers. And Mickey was just a hands-on, get-it-done guy, no finesse, just this is the way we could do it. I could build a car with four engines in it and set a record, you know, and they'd look at him like, who's this guy? What do you mean? How are you going to do this? But his personality, he was so, you know, he was so intense on his delivery to someone that he just sold you. He out beat you by convincing you

that what he was going to do for your product or whatever would revolutionize it. So he wasn't just a race car driver. Plus, he would start one thing and get someone to come in and run it and jump to another. He would never did just one thing while he's building. building his wheel industry, he's building a manifold industry, he's building exhaust industry, he's building a tire company, he's building this, he's building that. It's just incredible guy. I mean, really, he was never stopped. The guy never slept. He was a workaholic, and just really a unique guy. So we're meeting each other off and on, and I'm just a strange feeling about the guy, you know, he's just, he's not the classiest guy I've ever met my life, but I love him.

You know, he's just a cool guy. Without even knowing it, I hire this young lady as my secretary at Hot Rod. Next thing I know, and she's a very class lady, a name was Trudy, New York lady, classy as can be, beautiful and come to work. Always her hair was immaculate, her makeup was immaculate, dressed unbelievable, brilliant, smart as can be. as classy as anyone I've ever met, she meets Mickey Thompson, and they fall in love. You talk about oil and water. It is the absolute...

Wow. Opposites. Opposits of every... And when she told me she started dating Mickey Thompson, I said, wait a minute. You're kidding me. I couldn't believe it. I said, this is... And next thing I know, she leaves me as a secretary and goes and starts working for Mickey Thompson. they get married and you know that's totally different story but she was the most the greatest thing in the world that could have happened to Mickey and he was the greatest thing that could happen to Trudy. They were, I mean, I've never seen a couple that were so meant for each other but were so opposite, but that complimented each other, she was so dedicated to him and whatever he did and he was tough.

I mean, he was a real tough guy to be around all the time and he demanded, there was a real tough guy to be around all the time and he demanded, there was never enough. I don't care if there was 24 hours a day, he would somehow get another half an hour out of that day. And he expected everyone else that was associated with him to be the same way. So now I'm at Hot Rod magazine. This is when model car kits, Ravel and Mattel and there were other cars were big deals. People were building model airplanes and cars and stuff.

And I heard about the Ravel company that was on Marina Del Rey, that were in Marina Del Rey, it was husband and wife, the glaciers. They were building a model car bug, they called it the Baja Bug, that they were going to race in the Nora race, and we had covered the Nora race at Hot Rod. So let's focus on this for a second here, Sal. We'll go back a little bit. So the Eakins and Robertson, they do a little speed run down to Tijuana to La Paz,

create some buzz about that on motorcycles. And then a florist from Tarzana, whose delivery boy has blown up the motor and his land cruiser, he drops a V8 in his land cruiser and says, well, I think I can beat that record, which he doesn't do it. But on the run, he thinks, I think we've got the makings of a race. and then Bruce Meyer gets his Myers-Manks down there and figures out how to load the thing up with gasoline so he doesn't have to stop, runs south, you know, does his mapping. So he gets the approach.

He figures out the Bill Strapp angle on this thing. How do I figure out how to beat this sucker? And he loads his manks up with gas and all the extra tanks and everything, a rocket ship, and sets the record from La Paz back. And that sets the scene in summer of 67 for the first off-road race at Halloween Day of the Dead for 67, which you covered as a journalist. That's correct. That's right.

And, you know, Bruce Myers said, I met him when he built his first. We did a story on Carcraft when he first pulled his mold out for the Myers-Manks. And so I knew him very well, you know, at that time. Were you at God's right hand when he created the universe, too? Sounds like you were at the right hand of how all this stuff came together. Well, I was just, I was there at the right time. Exactly. You know, I really, I was getting up at 5 o'clock in the morning and going, making calls to different places all around Southern California.

And, you know, it was just a wild time. But so we go down to Revelle's thing and I've admired, they've got this rep, this real Baja bug that is just beautiful. because the graphics were on it were gorgeous, just fantastic. And they had already run a Baja rally, they called it at that time with Nura. And it was in there. They made the model car kits. They were selling. And so I said, well, you know, we'd like to do an article on it.

And they said, oh, great. And then before we went to lunch and before the day was over, they said to me, hey, you know what? The Baja 1,000 is coming up. Would you like to race this car in the Baja 1,000? And this is the 68 event. Yeah, 68. And I said, I mean, you're going to let me race?

And they said, yeah, if you want to do it, because they figured they'd get a bigger article in the magazine. And so, lo and behold, you know, I said, we'll do it. And my ad salesman, one of my ad salesmen at Hot Rod was Bob Weglin. And he was pretty good mechanic. He was an SCCA driver. And so I said, hey, Bob, you want to race with me in Baja, and that's Baja race? And he goes, I'd love to.

And I said, well, you're going to have to work on the car then. You know, we could keep it at your house. And let's do what we have to do to get Baja ready to go. Well, neither one of us knew anything about the Baja race other than what we knew, you know, because of the magazines and stuff. But I was not a racer. I rode motorcycles with a lot of great race. but I was not a racer. You know, I was too busy doing what I was doing at Peterson.

So we didn't have any idea about pre-running. We were really cherries, I'm telling you. It was just, and to be honest with you. It's a polite way of putting it, yeah. Ignorance was bliss. To be honest with you, I had this vision of the Baja Peninsula. I thought there was probably a yellow line going down there that you'd follow the race course.

And there was these places called like Rancho Chappala, which I envisioned this gorgeous, because I'd seen movies of Mexico and, you know, the signoritas with the flower dresses and the guys with the vandalas across their chest and drinking tequila, and the guy with the big sombrero, and everybody just whooping up and guitar players.

And I assumed that's what Rancher Chappala would be like, one of our checkpoints. In fact, at that time, it was kind of a, you got to, I think there's three or four checkpoints, but then you go any place you could figure out how to get down to La Paz from Ensenada at the time. And I was just so jazzed about going to go down to Mexico and be in this event. And, you know, I had to take a little time off,

which I didn't have any problem with Peterson, because I was my own, basically my own boss, to be honest with you. And we were going to, try to figure out what we're going to, we got to get down to Ensonada, and we were going to tow it supposedly, but we didn't have a tow vehicle or anything. And I said, wait a minute, we're going to drive a thousand miles. Don't you think we. On dirt. On dirt. Yeah, and dirt. Well, we didn't, I didn't realize it was all dirt.

I said, we ought to figure out if we could drive it from our house in Malibu here to Ensenada. Let's see if we'd even get it to there. So we drove the car, it was street legal. We drove it from Malibu to the, to Insanada. And I met at that time, again, you talk about how I was able to do things, I met some of the greatest people in Encinada. Somehow, I don't know how, why it happened, but I met, you know, Nikosad, who was at that time and is the owner of San Nicos Hotel, Carlo Vetta, who was the owner of the Baye. These were all guys a little, we're about the same age, really, all of them. And they were like second-gener.

Their parents were the ones that had started these places and they were taken and they were all educated in the United States Spoke perfect English very nice people The Pepe Randon who was the owner his family of the El Raysol His wife Lupita's mother was the one that had the El Rays Sol restaurant the finest restaurant French restaurant almost in the United States and here it was sitting in Mexico So I met everybody the owner of Hussons who's family, all of those people, and Pepe Rendon, or Lamone, rather, who became a very good friend of mine whose wife was the daughter of the largest Ford dealership in Mexicali, and very close to the

governor at that time, Milton Castellano, and the mayors that were down in Ensonada and Mexicali. And so he became a very good friend of mine. So we entered the first race. We hit a rock in Colnett. Hang on for a second, Sal. Let's just talk about, I think of those early days, and I asked Mary McGee about this when I talked to her recently. I said, was it a happening or was it a race? And she said, well, I certainly thought it was a race in 67.

But in reflection, it was also a happening. Now, you guys, in my opinion, there was no history. You know, the 67 thing had happened, but that was just people in cars driving on dirt and trying to get to the finish. Now, 68 people are going to try and go fast or go faster. And tell me a little bit about what was inside your car. What did you bring? How did you prepare? In my opinion, you're driving to the moon.

Yeah. Well, very good point, Michael, really. You know, the map that Nora provided you was the best thing there was. I mean, but it wasn't a map. I mean, it wasn't, it was just, you go insinada and you go down this road here, X number of miles, and then there was a checkpoint. Then you got to here calls Rancho Sananese, and there was a lady there. And then you'd get to Rancho Chappala, which is, this is my highlight, thinking we were going to have margaritas.

Dancing girls. Yeah. Marriacchi's. Anyway. And there were the guys that actually went down there and pre-ran and went like Mickey Thompson, which I didn't realize until I saw him in the most. hotel work because we're staying at the same motel but there was a book that I have at home and I and it was a bush pilot guys that they flew a route and had one of the best books

at the time of illustrations and different spots where the marble mine was where the whales were where I mean really this is bio was primitive I mean there was one paved road and the rest was all graded and they were the roads basically that Cortez and the Franciscan fathers marched up to you know

Concor Baháha Yeah harkening in back to your Jesuit days but you weren't on a donkey That's exactly right These are those trails Yeah It was very unique time So we were so naive

And I got to regress a little you know, because of my dad, you know, being a mechanic and stuff, we didn't, he was dedicated to that garage. He had opened over 5.30 in the morning, and if at 6 o'clock, 6.30 when he closed, if someone called and had a dead battery, he would open the door, go start the car. He was just a beautiful man, nicest guy in the world, but he would give no matter what. And that was a conflict at home sometimes because he's supposed to be home for dinner. and, you know, he'd be an hour late, but he was making money for the family. And his whole, my mom and dad, their whole life was dedicated to us boys.

You know, they wanted the best for us. And the only reason I'm saying that is just it was his personality. It was just, I'd never heard a bad word out of my mom's mouth or my dad's mouth. They were just great people. And he always had a smile on his face. And he used to say, you know, you have to work at being. a bad person and being mean, but it's easy to smile and be a nice person to everybody.

His whole idea was at, and, you know, he would, I mean, you know, he would fix a car and, you know, that was the problem. Then the person would say, well, you know, it doesn't, he would, if it was a 15 cent part, that's what you got charged for.

You didn't get 16 cents or 20 cents. He's a very honest and very straightforward guy. And I think that, I think, rubbed off on all us boys a little, and I admired his personality that way. So I think that helped me in Baja, you know, because everybody I met, we gravitated to, shook hands and Ambraso, a good embrace, and just, and I fell in love with Baja, okay?

So here we're going to do this event. Bob Wagan, who was my ad sales, who I really didn't, I knew, you know, a lot, and I knew his wife and stuff, but I'd never seen him out socially that much or anything. And I didn't know how he felt about Mexico. And he was a chain smoker. I didn't smoke or anything.

And at some point, we're going to get back to 68 and your trip to the dancing girls. In San Francisco and Haydaspur and the drug situation. It was just blew my mind. But anyway, we're at, we're at, we're. in Ensenada. So you've driven this, you've driven this model-based. It's a car that's going to have models built of it, and you're getting this gift bestowed on you because you're the publisher of the magazine, and they're hoping to get more advertorial

coverage, editorial coverage. They'll put an ad in for sure, but they're going to get all the free editorial. And you've tested this thing by stuffing it full of probably everything you had to, live on forever and a jacket and a sleeping bag or whatever you brought to bottle of tequila, I hope. And your test run, your whole test run preparation was driving it from Malibu to Ensonata. That was it. And you're right.

You know, compared to how the vehicles are built today and they have been built, you know, the idea of how you beat the Baja back then was you had a tank, a heavily armored vehicle, as opposed to lightweight now suspension so here we had this Baja bug that I don't know would it weighed

but if we could have fit another engine and transmission in the back we would have done it thinking that's what you're supposed to take but we have exactly the opposite

exactly you don't wear underwear you know today you know you don't want to but we had at that time you had space blankets you know that was because

the moon you had this little tinfoil space blanket This is a year before man walked on the moon, folks. So the moon shot and the effort to get to the moon was rather large in the culture. The kids at school were eating things that astronauts eat, these terrible little pasty things. Yeah.

Go ahead. That's what we took because we've had well if we, you know, have to eat on the road or whatever. We had no clue, you know. We had this space blanket, space food. We had my hot rod jacket. He had his hot rod sales jacket. We had, I think, between the two of us, I think maybe we had, I don't know if we had $200 in cash,

and he thought that was going to, if we had a real problem, we'd be able to get our way out of with the money. We had, I think we had an extra set of shocks. We had a couple of things of oil. I mean, we had, but it was jammed. You know, Baja Bug then was, it was real tight in there. Yeah, there's no room for you to, let alone all that stuff. It was very tight, okay?

So we're in the hotel in Encinada, two nights before the race. And I'm walking in my room, Bob and I were sharing a room there. And there's a lot of noise coming out of this room, about three doors down before we got to our door. And the door's wide open. And there's just 25 guys in this room. And I look in, and all the wall, the rooms were big, but every part of the room. the every part of the walls inside had these sheets of paper scotch tape to and lo and behold there was Mickey Thompson biggest life in there and he looked like hell I mean he was dirty he had bib overalls on

and he had looked like he had slept for a week and it looked like he'd been working on a car for a month and he had grease on him and Danny Thompson's son was there and Bill House who was his head mechanic was there and they had all these guys in there and he looked and he saw me at the door and he said he knew he says come on in Sally says let me show you have you have you looked at the map yet and I go yeah I've got the map I had this one page yeah the North thing was like a kid's drawing it was a kid's drawing of Mexico what do you mean haven't you gone on a pre-run And I said, pre-run, no. And he goes, oh, well, then you've got to look at this.

Well, Mickey had been down there for like four weeks in a row. He had flown it, and he and his son had driven it. And they had detail, which I could never this day still, dead cow turned right. And I'm going, well, that cow's not going to still be there. It's going to be eating or how's he going to know where to go? But he had it go 110 miles an hour. and I'm going, 110 miles an hour,

our car won't even go 40 miles now on the highway. You know, what's this guy doing? And he had the most meticulous, like, rally notes, which are not then involved in off-roading. It was rally guys did that. But because of his experience in Pan An American Road Race and stuff like that, and he brought his knowledge from all the other events that he had been in,

and they had it detailed, and he made, hand-made this roller cylinder that looked like if you were to have a roll of toilet paper, but, you know, it was wider that you'd wrap this thing. And his co-writer would be cranking the notes. You're telling them 50 yards turn right, look for cactus. It looks like an elephant turn left.

And they had a thousand miles. And believe me, that just took the air out of both Bob Wigan. and mine we said what are we doing we're not we're not in the same event this guy is i know are we and it was kind of earth-shattering but you know we said we went to hussons this is when you get smashed before you got in your race again we had a great time is it we're going to get to la posse the heck with you know one way or the other we're going to get there so bottom line is that was a real introduction again to mickey's way of doing things And a lot of other guys were very serious about it.

But this was an adventure for me. I wasn't going to become a race driver. I was going to do something. I certainly wasn't getting a blown fuel dragster or a funny car or an indie car, although I did get a ride in a NASCAR, you know, with trying to remember who it was back at Daytona, gave me a ride, not in the race, but around the track. Let's say Fireball Roberts, just to pick a name. Curtis Turner.

You know what? It was almost like Fireball, believe it or not, gave me a race. Herschel McGriff. And this is, you know, I knew Bill France, Bill France Jr. You know, it was just a lot of fun. So anyway, we entered the race, we broke. God, but I was, you talk about being hooked. This was all I could think about was, first of all, Baja, Mexico, and wanting to finish the Baja 1,000 event.

Well, I'm not going to let you off the hook out here, Sal. I will let you catch your breath, but you and Bill are out there. there driving along, you know, it gets dark, you break the transmission, you have no idea where you are, it's inky black, and you hear a car coming along. And you think you're pretty close to Rancho Chappala and the dancing girls and the margaritas. So that's probably playing some tricks on your mind at this. I'm assuming you're a little exhausted anyways. But you hear a vehicle coming along and you managed to get it to stop. Pick up the story. Well, we'd been running, but we were, we knew we're got to be almost next to last because cars were passing us, you know,

but there were, you know, it was a pretty good entry field, but back then also, you know, there wasn't, guys were going all over the place, finding their own route and everything, but we figured we're pretty close to Ranch of Tripala, just mileage-wise and everything. And we were, already, God, I think we had been in the race at least because we started early in the morning. It was late at night. So we had been running. We should have been past Ranchpaw, but I knew we weren't there because I didn't see the dancing girls or anything else, you know, or the guys giving me margaritas and everything.

And, you know, anyway, we break. And it was back then, Baja was dead silence. There was no, you could hear the wings on bees and birds and the birds and the, bells on the cows around their neck, but you couldn't see them, you know, but it was so quiet. And so dark. And so dark and cold. Yeah. So we're standing next to this broken VW off of the trail that we were on absolutely had no clue exactly where we were. And how, what were we going to do? How did we get, because we had no chase vehicle. We didn't have, our wives didn't even know where we really were going because we weren't sure. We said, La Paz, it's south.

you know, down there. When we get there, we'll call again, blah, blah, blah. And there was no phones. There was nothing like that, satellites or anything like that. So we were standing there and kind of arguing with each other. And Bob was just smoking like crazy, chain smoking. And I don't smoke. And it was driving me nuts that smoke blowing on me. And we didn't have a plan. We said, well, someone's going to come by. And we also said, well, the checkpoint must be ahead of us a little ways and we'll get there and they'll help us. Next thing I know we could hear this shifting coming from I mean it seemed like a hundred miles away. It was so quiet and you'd hear this thing. All of a sudden I stand right in the in the middle of what I thought was a track because I don't want this guy to go around me.

I want whoever it's coming to stop. Car comes flying in almost hits me, pulls to a stop, pulls to a stop, pulls to a stop, guy yells out of the car hey have you seen Garner and I'm looking at wait a minute wait a minute I said wait a minute James Garner and I said no we haven't seen him he says well we're his chase vehicle

he must be ahead of you and I said yeah he probably is and he starts to take off of him wait a minute wait a minute I almost laid down in front of the car I said stop Wiglin goes to the other passenger site and says we had our tow rope out by now which was a short toe thing was about

eight feet long. He says, can you take us to Chappala? And he goes, okay, no one got out of the car. They wanted to go get Garner. That's what they had to be, wherever he was. So we tied the tow rope for the front of their chase vehicle,

back of our VW. I get in as a driver, bops a co-rider. Next thing I know, the guy just pulls off. I mean, just going, I've got my foot. Now, I'm looking at his. brake lights. I'm looking at his brake lights, right? Or his running light, snick break, because he didn't never put his brakes on.

I've got my foot slammed down on the brake. I'm like an anchor. He's just dragging us. I'm wondering, we're going to get killed. He's going to stop. I'm going to run into the back of his vehicle, and it's all over. Next thing I know, he stops the vehicle. And it seemed like, at the most, 20 minutes we'd been being pulled. 20 hair-raising minutes. 20 I mean really hair raising we went faster being towed

than we went at any time during the race behind this guy with my foot on the brake and I was just my I think I broke the steering of my hands were just crushing the wheel I was so frightened he stops the car there's nothing around us stops the car and it's still night it's still dark oh pitch dark jumps out und does his end of this toe strap and I'm out of the car and I said Where are you going? He says, this is Rancho de Pala, see you. And I go, wait a minute, where's the margaritas and the dancing girls and the guacamole? You know, all these things that I heard about Mexico and everything. And he's gone.

And now we're standing there in the middle of the deserts, very early, dark in the morning, cold as hell. We've had, I got my hot rod jacket on, wagon's got his jacket on. And we're standing there, say, well, there must be, you know, dancing girls. There must be a saloon. There must be a motel here. There must be everything here because it's Rancho Chappala. It's on the map. And we're standing there.

It's a checkpoint. Nothing. Nothing. There's no one. We saw no one. No one said anything or anything like that. It starts to get light. And I'm going, now this is when Renshpaw was in the middle of the dry lake bed there.

There was no highway there. It was right there. And next thing I know, I see a. cracked out like old wood leaned to and a tarp and all of a sudden a couple of weird-looking guys walking around this and a bunch of trash all over the place and a plane lands and I go wait a minute so I didn't go to the weird-looking guys I ran over to this little single-seat plane lands and it's a little single-seat plane lands and it's a part of the Nora group and they were just doing something about closing up the checkpoint which wasn't there

they had already closed because it was time to move to the next point and so I asked them I said well what do we do? How do we get out of here? And they said oh people will be coming along the race course they'll get you now I mean

I'm really frightened to be honest I'm saying no one knows really where we are They don't care where we are, you know, in the organization. Our wives don't know where we are, how far we're on the race. We have no idea where we are, except it says Ranch de Pala, how, and we do have enough intelligence to say, you know what, we better not go south because it's still a ways to get to La Paz. We need to figure out how to get back to Ensonata because we knew it was only a couple of hundred miles, whatever it was at the time.

Bottom line, now it's light. those three or four Mexican guys that we saw that I didn't realize what they were, you know. They were living in the middle of this heap of junk out there, which I couldn't believe. I thought, you know, I said, my God, this is, and there were certainly no women there. I'll tell you that right now. The next thing I know, again, we hear, and I think I'm hallucinating, we hear this vehicle shifting down coming towards us from the south, from the La Paz area. and we're

just kind of blown away because we hadn't heard anyone since Gardner left us off. Yeah. Okay? I'm looking, we're standing there in the front of our bug now and the next thing I know

here's this vehicle which was like a Pismo Beach that was the kind of would a rail job all open. Nothing just as a guy that looked like the abominable snowman or something

completely covered in the Chapalo white dust, completely covered. He had goggles on, shorts, a tank top. Just look, I mean, I'm looking at this guy coming right at me. He stops, and he goes, which way is La Paz? And I'm going, wait a minute. Am I hallucinating? What in the hell is going on here?

And I go, it's that way. And Wagon just almost breaks my hand. He says, wait a minute, don't tell him. We've got to talk to this guy. You know, so he grabs the guy. Grapes him by the, he was starting to get a little freaky. He grabs the guy by the shoulder. He says, hey, wait, wait a minute, don't leave, don't leave.

And he goes, well, I'm going to La Paz. And he said, well, you're going the wrong way. This is Ensenada. But he says, can you give us a hand? You know, can you tow us somewhere? He says, no, I've got to get to La Paz. This is a racer. No, it wasn't.

It was a guy that I don't know if he was in. It wasn't a racer. It was just a guy out there that was either wanted to go down to La Pazer part of this race thing. He just flips off us, turns around and leaves. Now we're standing there again going, what in the hell are we doing? Bottom line is I finally have the balls to put a bunny to walk over to where this piece of crap shed is and try to communicate with these two guys.

And now I see there's about a half a dozen of them. And they haven't paid you any attention at all. No, they're just, I mean, they didn't even come over to say hello to them. They're walking around. doing I don't know what they're doing out there so I go over in my beautiful Spanish which is you know whenus deus one is this don't they stop ban you know and that was it and so I'm trying to explain to the guy we want what anybody do have a car and I didn't see any cars no trying I'm wondering how do these guys live out here and everything and I still to this

day don't understand how I got this related, the guy explains to me that there is a truck that comes every couple of days with turtles in it from the La Paz area, the south. These are sea turtles for food, folks. Back in the day, that used to be a staple of the diet there. Exactly right. A truck, a steak bed truck, I'm assuming, stacked full of sea turtles. Sea turtles.

Okay. Every couple of days. Yeah, every couple of days. This is my interpretation of it, okay? So now I'm feeling, wow, this is good. We're on the couple of days. You got that to look forward to. Yeah, we could have this guy if we have to leave our vehicle, which I wasn't about to do.

Because first of all, I was embarrassed, so we broke. It's not yours either. Exactly right. How am I going to explain this and everything? We've got to get it back to one of us is going to stay here. I've already got it planned out. I was going to say, because I knew Wagland couldn't handle the being. there by himself. I'd let him go with the guy and somehow would get a vehicle and come back here.

And you'd live off space food. Yeah, well, there wasn't a lot left. Let me tell you. Anyway, but that was a little, I was even thinking. And, you know, I got to remember now, I was not a Boy Scout. I never went on camping trips. I'd never slept in a sleeping bag. I didn't know how to put a tent and a snake. I hated snakes. You know, I wasn't an outdoors guy, you know, okay? So now I'm in the outdoors, okay? And I'm saying, don't worry, Wagon, we're going to, this truck's going to come and blah, blah, blah. Well, it was, seriously, we'd been there, let's say after midnight, now it was, it was light. It had to be about 5.30 in the morning, whatever it was. We're walking around, kicking the thing he's worried about he's going to run out of cigarettes.

Forget about food and water, what I was thinking about. He's more concerned about cigarettes. anyway, it's mid-afternoon, nothing's happening, you know, and I'm saying, God, maybe it's, maybe I miss, he met 20 days, I don't know what the hell he was saying, and lo and behold, coming, you could hear him coming for an hour, you know, a truck pulls up, steak bed, there's a dog in the, in the, it's a, just a bench seat, there's a driver, real Mexican, looking guy, a dog sitting next to him, and a kid, about a 10-year-old kid or something, they stop right at the rancho there, they talk to the people that are there, I'm standing right there with him, you know, going, because I'm not letting this guy go or anything, and I'm trying to explain to him. I want him, my first idea was we will pay him, because we had, I think it was $200-something, $200, something, we'd give him everything in our car, you know,

if he will unload the turtles and we could put the Volkswagen in the bed and the kid and the dog could get in the back and you know stand with the car and wangling and I would sit with this guy and we'd go to insinada well I don't know how this happened we unload the turtles and these are big big things they're true yeah they're big turtles You can, you can. And I'm still not, I'm still not sure they weren't alive, but I don't get what the hell, is it dried meat or what the hell the deal was or anything. But we unload the turtles.

And now we've got a, what, 3,000 pound or whatever it is, Volkswagen that how are we going to get on the back of this? And I'm looking at this thing, and it's not a cool looking truck. Let me tell you, it's been a little rickety, little rickety. Rickety would be polite, okay? So this guy, I mean, you know, Mexican engineering is fantastic. He was looking around at the wash. There was a wash there. He figured out that if he backed up, and it's like the sandwash, there was a berm.

And if we all pushed the Volkswagen around this guy's little lean-to house and went up on those little hard-packed trail, we could almost be even with the back of the truck. which I would have never figured out in a lifetime. And we could push the vehicle on there. Yeah, you're looking for ramps like anybody else would be. Yeah, yeah. And there's no wood there. No, there's nothing there.

You've got to disassemble a house. So we get the Volkswagen on the steakbed. And now I realize that how are we going to hold it down in there? But we had our one toe strap. And secondly, where was the kid and the dog going to be? Because there was very little room. You couldn't open the doors. Yeah.

Couldn't open the doors, no. But even if you could, sitting in the back would have been frightening. I mean, anything. I figured, you know, the guys would stand up, the kid would stand up, and the dog, maybe he could jump in the window of the deal, and he'd stand up next to the deal. Well, we gave him the $200, all our space crap food, everything we had in the car, and our jackets, and everything.

And he says, okay, I'll do it. Very nice guy. He was really nice there. and I assume, I said, okay, and I get around to the passenger side and have Wagon come with me to get in, and he goes, no, no, you get in the back. Get in the back. So Wagon was just furious. He was going to, you know, that was it.

So anyway, bottom line is we get in the back, the dog and the kid are in the front. And I didn't know this, but he couldn't start, couldn't start it because he, he, didn't have an alder meter. You can't make this stuff up. So we're sitting there. Now, but he knew he couldn't start it because every time he stopped, he would have to, he had some kind of a belt, pulley thing that he would light it off. The starter or some, and get the thing, and it would start.

And I'm going, wait a minute. This is, this crazy. So we get into the thing, okay. We leave. I think this is the greatest thing in the world. We're on our way to Insanar. You're moving in the right direction. It's just, now this thing had no shocks on it.

We're standing in the back. And we've gone, you know, a quarter of a mile. And I mean, I'm exhausted. I'm hanging on, you know, inside wagon. Dust is flowing on as hot as can be, hot as can be, dusty as can be. we go five miles he keeps the thing running but he's got the break on

which amazing he had a break there's nothing I see nothing around here or anything like that he gets out and next thing I know there's four or five people that show up that came out of I don't know they got out of a cactus which I learned that's the way things happen

and make so you think you're alone and there's people all they come out of ant hill graves I don't know where they hell they live, but they come out. And after the sixth time he does this, I realize he's almost like the postman. Yeah, you're on the Pony Express. There's

not much express. He stops at all these little places and tells them that their brother-in-law sent that everything's fine, but Chiquita died, or so and so. And he was the town crier from La Paz all the way to Ensonada, besides delivering the turtles.

Well, you can imagine. We I knew that road going from Rast Chappala back to Encinada, like the back of my hand. I saw every rock, every bump, every cactus going the wrong way, backwards on it and everything. It was, I think it was two days in a night that we got back to Encinada. It was the most unique, crazy experience I've ever known.

Now, why Bob and I would even consider doing this again is got to tell you what kind of brains we have. We were so excited about the adventure, and I said, man, Bob, we are going to prepare. We're going to conquer it this time. This was incredible, you know. Yeah. It really was. But that's just, you know, seriously, Michael, one of a million experience.

And I learned so much about the Hispanic people on that return trip. They are the most gracious, have nothing. but whatever they had it was ours when we stopped there. And they, because he was telling him in Spanish, I realized how crazy gringoes were down there and they were sitting in Chapala, not knowing what to do. And he was telling his story of it.

And they were laughing and looking at us and kids were coming around wanting to touch us. And I had, oh, the other thing that was more important than anything we gave them, I had carcraft and hot rod decals, and you'd think I was giving them $100. bills. What they were going to do with them, I had no idea. But I was handing those out like it was the end of the world. They just loved it. Well, it's amazing to me, Sal, we've talked for well over

an hour now, and we haven't even gotten to 1969. So I might have to make this into a two-part run, but I just want to say, hey, it's really been a delight to spend a little time in your presence and get these amazing stories. And I, I sincerely hope we get a chance to do this real, real soon. Well, thank you, Michael. I appreciate having the opportunity. And I hope that you will be able to make a lot of sense of this thing. And I hope that your listeners will enjoy it.

Well, the amazing thing, too, is funny, you went on to own this racing thing. From that start to coming back for 69, you did finish, right? You eventually finished one of these races. Yes, we did. And then by 73, you and Mickey were thinking about, well, you know, maybe we could run this thing. And that was his brilliant idea. Yeah. And then you said oil and water.

And then 74. And somehow an explosion happened after that. And it became the thing that it is, trophy trucks and craziness and 50 plus years later. And you're still smiling. Well, you know, again, you know, there was no. college or school with off-road promoter 101, you know, everything we were doing, we had to do maybe more than 10 times because it was, it was, no one else had done it. And, you know, having Mickey and Trudy, you know, as the incentive and the drive is what gave me the will

that something can't happen here. And Mickey convinced me, you know, that I should leave Hot Rod and the greatest unbelievable job in the world, you know, with the novel publisher of the number one automotive magazine at that time. Yeah, you should leave that cushy first-class life that you've been living to go live in the dirt in Baja,

stapling millions of staples along a thousand miles. That's a story all in itself. I wish I owned the staple company as many. staples and steaks, which people thought I was going to Baja and eating steaks. But no, there were wood steaks that would pound into the ground. But anyway, I know we were going to cut this one short. Great opportunity to share some of my life with your listeners, which I feel that the experience is still one that is available in Mexico, in Baha and Baha'u.

The people are just as gracious as can be. It's still a beautiful country. There's still a lot to see there. And I think what Ed Perlman is doing, you know, what he did, and his son, Mike, has started doing with the rally. Mexican rally is fantastic. And what Roger Norman, the gentleman that bought Scoring International after I sold it, you know, to him, 10 years ago, basically November of this year,

he's brought a lot to the event that I wasn't able to do at that time because he's very into the social media and the high-tech end of it, which, you know, I was still trying to figure out how to dial the telephone, let alone use a computer or what have you. Well, I'm going to pay you a compliment because I just spent an afternoon with El Tamate, your old friend, Ramon Castro in Ensenada, and he told me about how hands-on you were. Now, you're the owner of this thing. You're the boss. You're the hefe. But you're out there marking the thousand-mile course relentlessly day after day after day. And people only see you kissing babies and smiling and with the pretty girls at the start and finish. But there's a lot that went on behind the scenes that was not glamorous at all. And your beautiful wife, Barbara,

You said that maybe the reason you've been able to be married for all these years is because you were on the road so often. But it was not very glamorous a lot of the time. Well, there's no question about it, but it really was. You know, and when you, you know, you're bringing up some things that, you know, are way back in the back of my mind. You're triggering or wondering to think about it. You know, we were talking about Baja. But, you know, we went from putting on three races to Iceland. brought it to eight one year

to our Riverside to Lecern, Prim Parker you know, it wasn't just Baja. So I was dealing, not speaking Spanish unfortunately and I regret that a million times. I wish I had that

talent but I always figured I taught them how to speak English, you know, and we got along you know, we'd be sitting on the dirt talking to an Aito, a rancher owner and just going, uh-uh, and pointing on the, you know, with the sand and trying to figure out how I could get from A to B. Did they know a way to go behind their rancho that I could connect? But in doing that, dealing with the Mexican officials, you know, let's face it, we were doing with presidents, governors, mayors, the environmentalists. At the same time, I was having to go to the Bureau of

Land Management and different agencies here in the United States to put on the races in Nevada and California and Buffalo, New York, and Canada. You know, we put races on there too. It wasn't just as much as I was involved in really, and I really still am involved in Baha. I love it and the people. I mean, they're so gracious to me when I go down there. But we were also negotiating with the United States

and all the people that were against what we were doing because you had the environmentalists, which had no clue. We were the ones that were protecting the desert. It was the weekend warriors that were coming down, excuse me, and leaving their trash. The racer, the score racer, we left the place better than we found it. And, you know, that was a hard sell. And I look back and I go, how was I wearing all those hats? But it was because it was not a job.

It was a passion. The racers were my family. Barbara and I have never had kids. and I, to this day, you know, I have friends that race with us in the early days and the last race we put on that I see socially, that I see it was hard to do when I was, you know, the owner of score, because sure as heck, I knew that I would socialize as one of these guys. And unfortunately, there would be a situation that I might have to disqualify him. You had to do that with Mickey Thompson, you're just like sponsors. Yeah. I disqualified, quote, my partner twice.

And, you know, speaking of partners, as naive as I was, when Mickey convinced me to leave Hot Rod because he was going to make me his partner and we were going to make this off-road as big as NASCAR. Well, when I actually looked at what I signed and the things I did, I didn't really realize that 49% of a company was not being a partner but Mickey was always good enough treated me as you know his partner he was on me about everything but it was I was very fortunate that he wanted to do what he wanted to do in the

stadium racing and he allowed me to buy him out and thank God before he and Trudey unfortunately had a terrible situation and you know it gave me the opportunity to be selfish and do really what I wanted to do at score. Yeah, and to kind of put a bow on it now, Sal, I think the interesting thing, obviously I'm involved with Nora and what Eliseo and Elisio Garcia and Mike Proman have done, they're walking in their father's shoes. But the interesting thing for me is to see the generational relationships that grandfathers are sharing these vehicles, and now maybe some are doing UTVs because they're so easy. but they're, you know, an 80-year-old grandfather sharing a vehicle with his son,

or Robbie Gordon sharing a vehicle with his son, Max, and his son's Max is driving. You know, Parnelly's son, PJ, is driving, and it's kind of neat to see it carrying on, something that you started. Well, you know, the thing, I think one, there was a lot of things that convinced me that the life I was living as publisher would change. change and but it would change for the better. I think it's really as I mentioned earlier, you know, I had the opportunity to go to all forms of motorsports. You know, I saw boat racing, drag racing, Formula One racing, SCCA racing, motorcycle racing, airplane racing, because we covered all those.

You know, it was exciting to be able to do that. But what I saw in the off-road community, community. It truly as trite as this might sound, but you got to remember we're talking about 52 years ago, okay? I really saw a family sport. These weren't all sponsored people. These are people that had a desire and adventure and I felt that I was the steward. I had to keep that flame going with score. I wanted to continue to continue. continue to be, and some people say, well, you had too many classes. Well, no, I didn't have too many classes. I had a class that if you only could spend $8,000 on a vehicle, you could go down there. And I treated that family or that individual that was in that vehicle the same way I treated,

you know, an Ivan Stewart or a Parnelly Jones or whoever it was or... The firefighter from San Clemente was the same. Pardon? The firefighter from San Clemente was the same. Or your friend Ramon Kostra was the same. They were my customer. And they were no matter if they were a celebrity, which you know we've had some of the greatest celebrities in motorsports

and in other forms of the movie industry, doctors, attorneys, they were, when they got to that race car, my biggest concern was that they got to the finish line and it was a safe event. When they put that helmet on and I shook their hand at the start of the finish, they were my customer. and I was responsible for them. And that's how I ran score. Every one of those people.

I might not remember their name if I saw them, you know, because I saw a lot of people at Rue, right, you know. But they were, I felt very responsible. And it was my, it wasn't a job, it was my passion. And that's why I enjoy it so much. And that's why when you say, I used to love going out there, instead of being in an office, I was out there looking for a new trail or talking,

to a rancher and asking him, is it okay, can we go through your land? Or no, okay, how about another glass of tequila or a bottle of tequila? And we'd cut the deal. So I feel that I've been blessed, a very fortunate individual to do what I did. And I have to also, which we haven't even talked about, but, you know, yeah, we're talking to Sal Fish. But, you know, there were a lot of people that volunteer. and that worked, we only had a very small payroll at score, you know. But when you look at the people that really made score what it is today, you know,

my nephew Paul, the secretaries that came and, yeah, they made a salary, but not the kind of salary that they could have made working in a real, you know, business, so to speak. Because, you know, the only income we were getting was 50% of an entry and whatever sponsorship I could sell. And it was not easy. Let me tell you, because there's a lot of things you had to spend money on, you know, to make a race. And who would have thought that the thing would have really exploded once the manufacturers walked away from it? Well, that's the crazy part.

That really was the crazy part. You know, I came up the idea of Frank DeAngel, of the score trophy truck because I was getting this vibes from the manufacturers. And I was seeing that was the. the industry was, you know, just like at Indies, supposedly. And NASCO, you know, the car that wins on Sunday is the one they drive on Monday, you know, which is a far cry today. But that was the truth. And here all of a sudden many pickups in the pickup industry was becoming, you know, and the SUVs.

You know, that's why the sponsors had Toyota for all those great years that sponsored us. Because that vehicle, people would stop me on the street and say, you know, is that? because it was all painted up with the score logos there. Do you drive the Baja on that? And they say, well, gee, my wife should be in that to take the kids to the soccer, you know, game. So there was a lot of things going on at that time. But it just, to me, it was such an exciting time,

such an exciting group of people. The sponsors that, you know, when you think of Toyota, almost 18 years with me as a sponsor, BFG still is a sponsor of score. Taccati Brewery, Bill Steinschalks. These people invested, maybe not a lot of money, but they helped me make score what it is today. My nephew Paul Fish, Sue Johnson,

Bill Savvy's, Dominic Clark, Oscar Ramos, the Rodriguez family, Memo and Terry, their whole family would come down. Volunteers, Bill Wick, these are people that gave their time. They came down and got maybe, you know, a T-shirt and something from me. They came down on their own gas

with their own vehicles and went out in the middle of nowhere. This is where you go and you're going to stay there for three days. Hey, they loved it because where else, and I figured it out, get 300 volunteers, where else, what other formal motorsport

could you have gone out to Indian been a flagman or whatever and been, you're a major domo. You're in charge out there. You're out there by yourself, And you get to see these guys come through, and that's when it's so sophisticated today with the way they do things. But back in those days, you know, we took a beer can

and put some silver tape around it, tied it to the car, and bought, would get a roll of theater stubs, and that's what you stopped at a checkpoint, and it was a different color for each checkpoint, and that volunteer score would put that thing in the checkpoint. In the can. In the can. and at the end of the race, we'd cut it off

and hopefully not find a finger in there, or part of a finger, because the guy took off all the guy's finger was in there and would count the stuck stubs, and that's how you figured he went to every place. He didn't cheat. I mean, it was a different time back then. Today now, you know, with the satellite and the GPS

and airplanes, helicopters, and everything, it's still exciting as can be, and I think they're doing a great job with it. But those are the things. that made it, I think, what stimulated me and the drive that I had and what Mickey taught me how to do things down there and learn the terrain and everything that kept me going. Well, I'm glad that I finally got to the bottom of the turtle truck story because the first time I heard the turtle truck story, it was Steve McQueen getting a ride back from Bahia

de Los Angeles to Ensenada. So that's how, that's like, you know, telephone and kindergarten. And that's how the story had gone around. It was actually Steve McQueen now. And he was in the back of the turtle truck. So I'm glad we got to the bottom of that. Sal, I can't thank you enough. Well, folks, you can find out all sorts about Sal. Just a quick Google search.

And you'll find out more than you'd ever love to know about Sal Fish and all the great work he did in Baja. I'm touched that you've actually, you have a home in Baja and you have a home in La Pazas, as I understand. Yes, I do. So in the most Mexican of places in Baja, the fewest amount of gringoes, the place that's really warmed my heart now with what's going on in the Malacón and how, you know, it's really a beautiful. There's a lot of pride in La Paz these days. And, you know, you can imagine, I not only know that I've been in every place in the mainland.

I've had the opportunity to spend a month traveling into the Yucatan Peninsula. And I certainly know Baja. I'll tell you that in Baja Swo. And I can't think of a better place, and that's why my wife and I purchased the place in La Paz when we did almost 30 years ago. It's just the most, I love the water, you know, right on the bay there. In fact, I'm leaving a week from, well, no, two days from now, Saturday or whatever it was to go down for a month. And I'd love to kayak, and I'd love to see all my friends down there, and I will do some off-roading while I'm there. But not a lot.

mostly. I like being in the kayak and just the Sea of Cortez. It's 82 degrees right now. And the Pacific is nice, you know, because we're looking at the Pacific right here, but I don't go in my kayak in this water out here. Sure. I get in, put a couple of cans of Takadi and some salami, and I'm gone for the day. And Barbara knows I'll come back because I never go further than I could swim or walk in the beautiful water of the Sea of Cortez. Well, we're going to leave it right there.

Normally for appearing on the Slow Baja show, my guests get the beautiful benchmark Baja Road and Recreation Atlas. Today, because Sal is kind of known as a tequila aficionado, I sequestered a bottle of Fortaleza and brought it back for me for this special occasion. So, salutes to you. Saludos to you, signor, you have a beautiful bottle of Fortelaza Blanco, and I sincerely hope our paths cross again soon. So thanks for having me.

Thank you very much, Michael. And I know they will, and I am going to treasure the bottle, and you know I am going to drink it. We are going to toast here. I hope, I know you have a drive ahead of you. Well, I have a slow Baja shot glasses here for you that I'll leave with this beautiful bottle. We'll just have a little sip to say saluto. So thank you. We did it.

Have I told you about my friend True Miller? You've probably heard the podcast, but let me tell you, her vineyard, Adobe Guadalupe winery is spectacular. From the breakfast at her communal table, bookended to an intimate dinner at night. Their house bred Azteca horses, Solomon, the horseman will get you on a ride that'll just change your life. The food, the setting, the pool, it's all spectacular. Adobe Guadalupe.com. For appearing on Slow Baja today, our guests will receive the beautiful benchmark map 72-page Baja Road and Recreation Atlas. Do not go to Baja without this, folks. You never know when your GPS is going to be. going to crap out and you're going to want a great map in your lap.

Trust me. Well, I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I enjoyed recording it. Sal is just a delightful human being and I really feel lucky to have spent some time recording a few stories from his extraordinary life. If you enjoyed the conversations you heard this year on Slobaugh, that's right, this year. It's already another year has slipped by. It's already the holidays. New Year is upon us.

You may even be listening to this show in the new year. If you've enjoyed what you heard this year on Slow Baja, please take a second. Support the show. A huge shout out, huge thanks to Eric Lippincott at Camp Tech for his support. He slid an entire tray of tacos into the tank this week, and it just made my day. Really got to say thanks to him. If you're thinking about putting a pop top in your modern-ish land cruiser, FJ80 and newer, maybe your GX470, like Carter at Nomad Wheels,

had popped into his, or maybe you want to do it in your Gen 5 four runner? Well, Eric at Camp Tech is your dude. So thanks Eric for your support. Check him out. And if you want to drop a taco in my tank like Eric did, click the donate button at slowbaha.com, pick your dollar amount and securely enter your payment information. It's pretty fast. It's pretty easy. And it is the best way to get my coveted. Ask your doctor if Baja is right for you, bumper sticker. While you're at Slowbaha.com, you better check out the Slowbaha shop. There's still merch, folks. I can't believe it. There's still merch. I've got the Slow Baja sweatshirts in stock. I've got some knit hats, not very many, but a few. I still have white t-shirts in all sizes, and I have the modern

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