Small Town Murder - #115 - A Game Of Pray, Marry, Kill in Lititz, Pennsylvania

Episode Date: April 18, 2019

This week, in Lititz, Pennsylvania, two young people find love in a group of homeschooled kids from the area. The problem is that families don't approve of their budding relationship, leading to sneaking, lying, and some generally non-church sanctioned activities. This whole situation culminates in a missed curfew, argument, and death. The attempted getaway is something to be remembered, but this whole thing will still leave a bad taste in your mouth. Either way, it's worth the ride to hear this wild story!Along the way, we find out that too many candles in one festival could be dangerous, that parents had no idea about old school social media, and that maybe you should finish the 9th grade before you plan to marry!!Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman New episodes every Thursday! Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com & use our email: [e-mail] Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports! Follow us on... twitter.com/@murdersmall facebook.com/smalltownpod instagram.com/smalltownmurder Also, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Lidditz, Pennsylvania, two sheltered kids find what they believe is love leading

to Shakespeare-level murder. Welcome to Small Town Murder. hello everybody and welcome back to small town murder yay yay indeed jimmy yay indeed my name is james petra gallo i'm here with my co-host i'm jimmy westman thank you folks so much for joining us on another crazy wild edition of Small Town Murder. It's going to be crazy again this week. It is. It is. And I understand in the beginning the pronunciation of this town.

You know what? Let's save it for a minute. Let's save. We'll do housecleaning. Then we'll get into this right when we get into the town because there's going to be a lot of jokes here. Oh, good. A lot of very immature jokes.

And some of them will be funny, so stay tuned for that. Thank you, everybody, for everything this week. First of all, thank you to everybody in Nashville who came out to the live show. We closed out the comedy festival there. That was a blast. It was unbelievable. Really great. You guys were fun, and you guys waited around to hang out with us and meet us on a Sunday

night, and that's awesome. Thank you guys for that. A bunch of people traveled from their homes to visit uh this town together and share hotel rooms yeah yeah a big group came it was awesome so it's great to see like you guys have built a community here that's just amazing and thank you and we're glad that we could uh i don't know help coordinate that i guess you could say or whatever facilitate facilitate give the reason i don't know we didn't coordinate anything we also didn't facilitate we just gave a well we sort of facilitate facilitate could be anything that's like conspiracy like you can you can help somebody without even knowing you're helping them in a conspiracy it's just you know one hand doesn't

need to know what the other is doing as long as they're working toward the same goal which is that but contribute you actually have to do something which we've not done for them but uh thank you guys for everything this week thank you for your reviews your itunes apple podcast whatever the hell that is the purple icon thank you for those reviews they really really matter a lot so if you have not done it yet please get on there apple or itunes or whatever the hell it is and give us a review it helps drive us up the charts on a business level it means the world it doesn't matter what you say. Just five stars is good.

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for small-town murder and for crime and sports, which you be listening to and uh if you haven't listened to crime and sports if you've been going you know whatever you've been on the fence listen to the last two if the last let's first start with mitch green and then go to the next one the nile ranger that we did last week if mitch green doesn't hook you then you won't like it we'll put it that way that's the that that's the one right there it is insane and everything that crime and sports is all about very little sports tons of insane crime especially if you've run out of this show yeah if you've got all the where you need to go give that a shot go give that a shot i got a message the other day about a girl that who listened to this one like three times through and then she decided to go try that and she

absolutely yeah we get that all the time i don't know why I waited so long. I like it better than Small Town Murder. We get that a lot. So give it a shot. You'll enjoy it. You can do that all right from the site. Also, you can donate from the site, which is incredible if you want to do that. You want to be one of our producers who we're going to talk about at the end of the show. That is very easy to do right from shutupandgivememurder.com.

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I think we should just do the disclaimer and get right into this here because it's been a crazy week and we'll talk about that over the course of the show. We've had a crazy, crazy week but this is a comedy podcast.

We're comedians so jokes are going to be made it's going to happen the cases are real we promise you everything that we talk about is 100 real we just make some jokes in there we make jokes at the expense you say what's so funny about murder we will tell you a lot of stuff we make jokes about small towns because everyone's from a shitty small town and you got to have a sense of humor about it we make jokes about murderers you know people that kind of deserve it you know a bumbling police force that lets somebody go for 10 years without doing a good job we'll make fun of them we make fun of the surrounding things it's fine what we go out of our way to do though is we try not to make fun of the victims or the victims families because we're assholes but we're not

scumbags that's how that works so that sounds good to you you're gonna have a good time we're assholes but we're not scumbags that's how that works so that sounds good to you you're gonna have a good time we're gonna have a blast right now because we got a crazy episode uh if that does not sound good to you if you think that true crime and comedy should never ever go together just on principle then you should probably turn this off now because you're not gonna like it yeah you're not gonna like it we don't want to hear you complain later on we like to say if you're in now yeah that's good you're in the car you're on the way to the liquor store it's getting robbed liquor store is getting robbed if someone should accidentally pull that trigger you're just as responsible as we are so culpable god damn it no complaining afterwards so if that's everybody's on board now it's time

to shout it out yeah out your car window from the rooftop stand on top of your cubicle well not on top of the cubicle on top of the desk right inside the cubicle and shout shut up and give me murder let's do this yes let's go on a trip jimmy what do you say not another one right uh we've had a rough week let's not fly let's not fly well it's far we can't drive we're going all the way to pennsylvania oh so we're not. Yeah. That's a distance. It's a drive. It's definitely a drive. We're going to, it's Lititz, Pennsylvania. And I think it's Litich, I think is how you text, because it's a German thing.

But it's L-I-T-I-T-Z. Nope. So it's Lil Tits. Yeah, it is. It's Lil Tits, Pennsylvania. I'm sorry. Everyone, I'm sure, if it wasn't such an amish area and heavily religious area everybody would call it little tits it's you know they would say it on the postcard

from little tits it would be that would be their their thing because they'd have nothing else yeah uh it's in southeastern pennsylvania uh pretty rectangular state not too much panhandle little couple of them in the east a little jutting out there but uh pretty rectangular this is kind of right in the right in the rectangle and it's about an hour and 45 minutes to philadelphia about three hours and 45 minutes to pittsburgh the other direction and about an hour and 45 minutes to sunbury which was our last pennsylvania episode holy episode 65 that was a while ago long ass time ago almost a year ago it was yeah 50 episodes ago about a year ago yeah uh as long as 50 this it's all right 50th anniversary of the last got it 50th week anniversary and sunbury's about an hour 45 to the north of here this is in lancaster county

which if you've heard of amish country that's where it is lancaster county this is uh yeah this is amish country is lancaster pa in lancaster county it is in Lancaster County. This is Amish country. Is Lancaster PA in Lancaster County? It is in Lancaster County, absolutely. That's what they're talking about, Lancaster County. Zip code 17543. Lancaster PA is just the county? There might be a town, too, but they're talking about the area. But there's non-Amish.

This is not an Amish murder that we're talking about here today. This is a non-Amish murder. But Lancaster is known for its Amish community. It's known for its Amish. Yeah, that's where you go, to Lancaster. People use that as a reference back east to like, you know, Woody from Lancaster or something if you're like a, you know, behind a little bit.

If you're behind 150 years or so. Ah, that's fantastic. Area code 717, not used by everyone in town as we know of because some of them are Amish. Some of them don't have that at all. Not going to be concerned with the area code. Don't care. Mottos here, and we'll see.

I'll give you three mottos, and you tell me which two are real. We'll put it that way. Oh, that'll be fun. Yeah. There's three. Two of them are real. Okay. One is the heart of Lancaster County.

Yeah. The other is the coolest small town in America. Yeah. And then the other one is Littitz. It's not the size of the cup, but how well they stay up. No? I'm going with the last one and the first one. Those are the real ones.

Clearly the real ones. Absolutely not. The last one, of course, is what it should be. They try to call this the coolest small town in america coolest small town in america it is does that even mean the most religious place i've ever heard of just just shy of like you know tel aviv or like you know jerusalem or somewhere like that as far as religion a high amount of people being religious goes. It's just, it's right there. It's close.

It's like a holy land, this place. But it's cool. It's so hip. It's cool. Littitz was founded by, or Littitz, whatever the hell. I'm calling little tits. Yeah. Little tits.

And don't be ashamed of your little tits. That's what I'm saying. Oh, little tits are great. It doesn't matter. Yeah. Nobody cares. Little tits is a great place. They're fantastic in any way whatever your little tits big big old tits that town's a good one too

it doesn't matter they're beautiful yeah that's what we're saying they're amazing they're amazing and we don't have them so we're we're astounded and and we stand in their glory. So it was founded by members of the Moravian church. Oh, Moravian Moravian church in 1756. This is a, wow. It's named after a castle, which had the check name of L I T I C E was how it was said.

So it's somehow pronounced, you know, I guess it's, that's why I think it's lit. It's lit. It's lit. It's lit. It's lit.

It's lit. It's lit. It's lit. It's lit. I'm pretty sure. It's, it's that's why i think it's litich i'm pretty sure uh it's it's all it's like it's still 1756 in this town in a lot of ways here that's why i'm laughing it's it's uh i keep reading about the the roots of the church in germany and i'm like it's the same thing basically in this town uh the the name uh is it's known it comes from the original exiles who fled to Saxony in 1722 from Moravia to escape religious persecution.

But then they ended up here eventually. It's all Jesus Christ. I can't get into the story of the whole religious, why religions broke away from each other. Let's just start with why they're here. Okay, let's just do that here. just start with why they're here okay okay let's just do that here uh they apparently they came here for missionary work to try to spread um you know the religion everywhere and to escape persecution uh they are they're big into uh personal uh piety and missions and uh music and that sort of of a religious value they're not like in the hip-hop right they're into like

they're not like running around knocking on doors can they're into like they're not like running around knocking on doors can i tell you about the new run the jewels album let me like you need to know can i can i tell you about the above the first book of naz because i feel like it was written you need to know it's so it's let me let me show you let me see the scar face in the ghetto boy let me show you the ballot of Willie D. I think you need to see this. Have you heard of Do or Die? That would be amazing.

That's what we should do. Door to door. That's our thing. Have you heard about Rakim? Let me tell you about him. Did you know that Common used to be a rapper before he became an actor? Let me tell a story eric b could be present at this point that's the funny thing okay that's a very old school that's a good reference but that's a deep if you know that one that's a good reference so anyway uh yeah so for over a century when they first got here in the mid 1700s only these moravi

moravians were permitted to live in this town oh they were the only people allowed to live here that seems racist it's it's just the it's that's what i mean this town is so strange it's it has a very strange history they're trying to create like a shangri-la of of uh of religion for them yeah they're like this is our little fucking our little tent and we're gonna keep everybody else out only members of the congregation were allowed to own houses which is until the mid-1800s like right before the civil war this was abolished so i mean this is you you could never mind what race you were if you weren't in their congregation you couldn't own a fucking house it didn't matter yeah it's super weird this

went on until 1855 that's when they finally abolished what they called the lease system which is the only way you could live there as if a congregation member would lease you their house there's some you know their property you weren't allowed to own shit yeah so it was that way they could decide who came in and who came out okay otherwise otherwise people just buy shit you know that goes you know like normal society you know like society like like america you know that works uh this was yeah five years before the start of the civil war so uh this is fucking you know amish country this is the you know is near here so it's very everybody's very nice everybody's very slow and everybody's very

family oriented religious and and and god-fearing and uh that sort of thing here uh now during uh during the uh american revolution they had they used a big house here as a uh as a hospital a bunch of soldiers were buried died there were buried there uh this town is also home to linden hall school which is the oldest all girls boarding school in the united states oh gross so it is the the oldest school where you send girls to uh learn how to finger themselves i don't know what the hell well what girls do it in all boarding school i just thought of that was weird because as i was processing that i thought what would guys do yeah and i would think they learn how to jerk off there so i was like i guess learn how to fucking diddle themselves i have no idea so i apologize for the crassness of that but honestly that's what boys

would be learning what they do too i would assume that's the age you're going to figure it out i assume so uh yeah the oldest one of these uh diddle factories though in the united states self-diddling i was a auto diddle of yeah auto diddle factories we'll say there's no one is they might be who don't know what's going on there i'm not co-signing for this place at least it's an auto it's uh whatever so anyway uh yeah it's jesus christ it's founded uh that school is adjacent to uh a church that's on 47 acres of land oh yeah uh yeah this school was founded in 1746 so So that is an old goddamn school. It was a decade before the borough was incorporated. And it exists today still?

I believe so, yeah. Ben Franklin enabled the village to honor its pacifist convictions because the Amish don't fight. That's some shit. If there's a war, they get conscientious objector status. There was no guys running around fucking vietnam with you know with a with a blocked hat and and a jawline beard and a jawline beard that didn't happen going around going yeah i gotta cobble these shoes this weapon's a little too modern for my liking do you have a musket that that wasn't have you got a knife sir yeah

that wasn't working so uh yeah, they did not have to fight. Declaration of Congress allowed them to continue their ban against bearing arms, because they don't believe in that at all. The town did not. Of course, the war was there. Like I said, they had a ton of soldiers that died in a hospital there. The Linden Hall Seminary for Girls there, that was established before the signing of the Declaration of Independence. That's crazy, and it's still in existence now.

The first recorded Independence Day here, July 4th, if you're not from the United States, we celebrate that if you're from Britain, sorry. The first one was in 1811, and the the religious people did not like it why they were pissed that this was happening in their town because they said that it was uh they called it quote merrymaking which is not okay you will not be happy do not feel joy how dare you enjoy yourself unless it's toward the lord then you can feel joy but you're you're that's like if you're celebrating the flag that's like uh you're celebrating the flag that's like you're not celebrating the lord at that point you take that joy and put it into the celebrate wave

a page of the bible off the off the pole and fucking salute that and celebrate it rotate it every day put a psalm up there you know do that sort of thing what are we thinking here get your shit together people good god so uh a little more reverence for the baby Jesus, as Trudy in Reno 911 would say. Did she say that? Yeah. That's hilarious. They were trying to get these prisoners to sing. A little less attitude, a little more reverence for the baby Jesus.

Let's go. Trudy was the skinny high-voiced chick with the dark short hair? Dark short hair, yeah. What is her name? I cannot remember. She's amazing amazingly talented hilarious it's just completely run away from me now for some reason wendy uh god damn it she's great yeah trudy on reno 911 amazing actress really good so uh yeah it's uh

it wasn't until 1818 that it had it finally had a community-wide observance of Independence Day. When finally they said, I guess it's all right. People were still going to church on Sunday if they had fireworks and liked the flag on Saturday. So I guess. All right, fine. All right, light the grill. Put the dogs on. It's fine.

I wonder if that particular one landed on a sunday and they were just all joyous and in a great mood and then they went outside and they were like look at this celebration for the we are going to do this every fourth the celebration for the lord is beautiful hey what the fuck did you did you do you just like fireworks for jesus that crook there's no fucking crud there's no cross on the flag man fuck that Fuck that. Put a cross on that flag. I think that's what it was probably. So they also, tourists and residents here, they also have the Queen of the Candles pageant and fireworks display there. Queen of the Candles?

Yeah. They decorate all this shit. There's wooden beams and trestles all over the place. And the trestles are fitted with sockets for candles. And they have music and shit like that. And the first candle is lit by the year's queen of the candles, pageant winner. Yeah. Oh, boy.

The queen of the candles. And then they have all sorts of shit. They drill candles into wood and set them on fire. No, they have metal. They're like metal and stone. Okay. I think metal sockets. I think candle holders.

I hope so. Yeah. You're putting fucking fire into wood. It's wet there. Don't you know any history of this country? Yeah. It's all moist. I'm an idiot.

I know some. It's Arizona, though. Here, everything sets on fire. There, you really got to put some effort in to set something on fire back east. It's hard. Everything's moist. Nothing wants to... It's all moldy and shit. You ever been to Pennsylvania philly everything's moldy yeah no offense we love philly

but it's fucking moldy yeah it's it's a moist city you guys are very there's moisture shooting from the ground at all times just a puff of moisture will come out of the street jesus christ where did that come from the earth has had enough extra moisture philly's got too much though earth is expelling it sorry sorry uh so yeah during a uh they they had a 250th anniversary in 200 and 2006 of the anniversary of the naming of the town where they all sat around in shame and said we named our town little tits is this what we're celebrating we're keeping another year fuck it 250 more years of little tits we've been getting a very specific type of guy coming here it's getting creepy that's all i'm saying they said where's the asian section of town i'm like chill the fuck out dude you fat blonde motherfucker chill out lots of guys and in pleaded boner hiders. Yeah, my God. Jesus Christ.

Yeah, so they have a sister city. I couldn't make this up. This shit again? Lil Tits has a sister city in the Czech Republic called Kunvald, which says... I can't make that up. Lil Tits and bald cunt? This is great. Lil Tits and cunt bald.

I can't make up Lil Tits and cunt bald i can't i'm sorry but jesus christ boy oh boy she sounds hot that's weird guys weird guys looking up is there asian chicks i heard there's asian chicks that's funny they call it a hairless with the it's a sister city that one's i just when i saw that i said no i i debated whether or not to put it in there i'm like because we're too immature to handle this information i know where we are i know we can't handle this as adult men i'm positive that is fantastic so yeah that happened during the 250th anniversary so well we got to keep the name now. We're hooking up with Jesus Christ.

Wow. Oh, my God. Yeah, that is amazing. Now, 2013, Lil Tits was announced as the winner of Budget Travel's, quote, America's coolest small towns competition among 15 other finalists. Voted by frat boys everywhere. Voted by seven Amish guys on a panel they're the yep it's definitely the coolest they definitely the coolest name that's for sure we got that boom either seven amish guys and seven frat boys together the only thing they could agree on is they love this town the amish don't understand why the frat boys love it so much the frat boys

are just giggling the whole time yeah no, no, that's the coolest, man. Except for Cutwald. That's the fucking coolest. That's not in the running. Cool. We'll take little tits then. Is there a big old rack in the... No?

Just little tits? All right. We'll take it. Wow. So, coolest town. Coolest small town in North America. Come on, man. How can we resist this? Is there a town called Backbox anywhere? Is there anywhere like that? There is. Come on, man. How can we resist this?

Is there a town called Backbox anywhere? Is there anywhere like that? There is. I'm into it. Holy hell. It's going to be a tight squeeze to get us all into that town, but we'll give it a shot.

All right. All right. Enough of this. That's what I mean. I couldn't stop this. People in this town, 9,269 embarrassed patrons trying to hide the name of their town. It's up 12% since 1990. I don't know why.

Median age here is 46.1. It's about 10 years older than the average in the U.S. And you're going to get kind of more of a, not a lot of young people moving here to party. You know what I mean? It's more of a settled population. They're pretty settled. I mean, they get there, and they're like, whoa, little, what?

Where is she? Hey, it's all churches, bro. Did you see? Fuck, dude. It's all churches. I can't even see how big they are. Did you see the dresses on these women? You're not even allowed to drive on half the roads

because there's fucking horses and shit and buggies and dudes with be- I don't know what's happening. are. Do you see the dresses on these women? You're not even allowed to drive on half the roads because there's fucking horses and shit and buggies and dudes with be- I don't know what's happening. God damn it. Ridiculous. Everyone's wearing wool, head to toe. Head to fucking black wool, bro. I can't see shit. I asked them if they shaved.

They said, I don't know. I went by the sister. So female population is much higher than male here. It's almost 57% 57 female which is extremely high and i don't even i can't imagine to put a y on that it's just that's the way it is uh male population like i said about 43 way low married population is about 58 which is higher than the 50 50 average uh not a lot of single with no children people here and the people who are single with no children are young and the people who are single with

no children are young pretty much are like you know not of uh their children they're yeah they're they're looking to they're looking to court someone right now and be married i feel like a lot of these people here uh uh the race of this town shockingly you'd imagine i've know all of you and all the footage have seen tons of black amish people, but there's really not a lot. I'd love to see one, though. That would be amazing. Hell yeah. If you have evidence of a black Amish person, please send it to us. A wooden hammer?

I would fucking love to see that. That would be awesome. You don't see black guys with the Amish beard very often, either, which is something that But they can grow that. Oh, fuck yeah. They grow a good one. Hell yeah. Yeah, yeah.

You can see it. James Harden, for Christ's sake. Yeah, yeah. That's a good one. I was going to go with a Frederick Douglass, but if you want to. Who the fuck is that? Oh, fuck yeah. They grow a good one. Hell yeah. Yeah, yeah. You can see James Harden for Christ's sake. Yeah, yeah. That's a good one. I was going to go with a Frederick Douglass, but if you want to. Who the fuck is that? Oh, in history. That guy.

Got it. I'm like, is that? I got to put my headphones on right now. In my head, I'm trying to figure out which show that guy's on. He's. He's on a real big. Never mind okay that was fun okay i don't have time to explain frederick douglas here today look him up if you don't know please look him up long since dead 0.86 percent black so that's to be less than two hours outside of Philadelphia and have less than one percent black. That's pretty aggressive.

It's an aggressive purging. I feel like one point six, eight percent Asian. So there's a couple guys, you know, that are coming around where two less than two percent. It's expecting much more. It's point three point five, three percent Hispanic. So it's fucking white. About 50 50 on the religion. It's average.

So the people who are religious's fucking white. About 50-50 on the religion. It's average. So the people who are religious are fucking religious. And the people who aren't religious are probably really not wanting anything to do with that shit because they're tired of hearing about it. They're doing it on purpose. If they're holding out this long in this town, you're never converting those people. That's the highest

amount of people are 21% or other Christian, which I would assume is your, you know, your old-timey. Your old-timeys here. 0.3% Jewish here and 0.2% Muslim here. So, 37%

of the people in the county voted Democrat in the last election, 56% Republican, about 6.5% Independent. That's your Amish vote. They voted for silas who's just some guy who helped helped all of them put up a barn one time and they're very thankful to all voted for the barn yeah voted for jedi jedi he's the best barn raiser in town it's the guy unemployment rate is uh less than the average actually it's about three and a half percent

here right now we all goddamn work super i was gonna say you could just go graze a barn there's plenty of work to be had here uh here uh the household income is a little higher too it's a little more of a you know it's a rural area so there's land people have a little more money median household income is 58 375 it's about a thousand more than normal but uh not too shabby manufacturing jobs there's about twice as many of those as normal here, so you're going to get a lot of that. I don't know if that's Amish things. Yeah, they're building shit. They're good at building shit.

Yeah, good at building shit. Retail trade's a little high because there's some tourists that come in this area. Healthcare and social assistance is also a little bit high in this area, but otherwise jobs are pretty normal. Cost of living, normally it's about $100. That's average and par. Here it's $103. So pretty close to normal.

Housing, median home cost is $185,600. So right around the national average. Real close. It's very much in terms of all the economic things, like your average kind of standard American small town that we usually talk about. Most of the houses, about 60% of the houses are between 100 and, I'm sorry, 75% of the houses are between 100 and $300,000. Okay.

So that's your wheelhouse. 60% are between 100 and $200,000. Okay. So very much kind of your average your average kind of deal here and if we've convinced you uh that you uh need to go to little tits uh we have for you the little tits pennsylvania real estate report Your average two-bedroom rental here goes for about $1,075, which is lower than the national average a little bit, but it's pretty close to it.

I found a three-bedroom, two-bath, 1,296-square-foot house. It's brick. Nice. It's old, though. It needs some work on the inside. It's very much kind of 70s. Kind of a lot of date here. But $157,000.

Okay. Not bad. That's good bones and everything like that. I found a three-bedroom, two-bath, 2,924-square-foot house. Very nice. You can move right in and live there. $279,900. Which, you know, a little high, but not terrible.

The national average is $215,000. And close enough to a city to commute. Yeah, and it's 3,000 square feet, so it's a big house. And I found out, finally, you want to relax here. You've done well selling your Amish wares. Four-bedroom, four-bath, 4,058 square feet it is. This is new construction, so this is kind of the opposite of the other two. This is a brand new, shiny house here.

No history. $799,900 for this bad boy. So, yeah. To live in Lil' Tits. To live in Lil' Tits. Damn near a million dollars. A million bucks for Lil' Tits. $800,000.

Things to do in Lil' Tits is the 2019 little tits fire and ice festival yeah uh here uh they call it a small town with a big agenda of community events ooh uh restaurants shopping lodging and more yeah i don't know what else more there is that's no yeah they had uh the event is free uh just took place there's a chili cook-off saturday there is a fee for that. God, they want to go around and eat your chili. You're not going to just stick your spoon in people's shit and not be charged for that. Who the fuck do you think you are?

Kind of an asshole here. But yeah, they're going to have that. They're going to have live ice sculpting also there. I've always wanted to watch that, actually. Yeah, some crazy person with a chainsaw just going to town on an ice block. That looks so, A a fun yeah and be hard yeah at the same time that's what i mean i'm impressed by it yeah super fascinating because you've got to have a lot of wherewithal of how to get something specific out you know because they're 3d you gotta be an artist gotta come out of the ice some art to that yeah you can't just

be some schmuck lumberjack with a you know that's good with a chainsaw you have to be know what you're doing last year 40 000 people showed up for it so it's a big big deal there that ice sculpting will draw her out fuck yeah crime rate in this town uh what we're interested in here property crime is about one-third the national average so as you'd expect it's kind of uh there's not a lot of thieving going on in this town and a violent crime murder rape robbery and of course assault the mount rushmore of violent crime, is less than half the national average. Damn near a third of that, too. So it's just low. I mean, this is a town with a lot, you know, half the population is devoutly religious and, you know, just kind of has that kind of vibe.

It's a family kind of a place. There's not a lot of craziness going on in this town. Put it that way. Sounds like a boring-ass place to be a kid. Sounds great. It sounds fucking terrible. Like, as a teenager, I would have lost my motherfucking mind. As an eight-year-old, amazing.

Oh, as an eight-year-old, amazing. And probably as, like, a 48-year-old, pretty great. Yeah. If you're, you know, a little lame. 18. If you're 18, 28, anywhere in there. 16, 14, 12, 13, 31, 41, anywhere in there, you're really upset. But the rest, old and young, boy, top notch.

So this story is kind of about a couple of teens. It's kind of it is about a couple of teenagers in this town to living in this town. kind of it is about a couple teenagers in this town too living in this town uh this says like uh this story has an adnani kind of a thing to it except except if the story went a completely different direction like it's it's the same up to it's you know kind of the uh star-crossed lovers type of thing of you know not allowed to see each other that's the beginning parallel all that and then it just branches off ends up in violence just completely different way of all of that it's modern day fucking shakespeare's what this is uh let's start off let's talk about michael borden yeah okay michael borden is a guy he lives in this town uh he ends up working as a scientific publisher whatever the

fuck that is uh in uh afreda pennsylvania uh now he is an elder at the church uh he's not amish it's another deal here uh very it's kind of a christian fundamentalist these people are all other christian other this is what they're talking about with other christian these these people are like they were the guy's brother calls it a christian fundamentalist group uh here and not not like a cult or anything but like a i don't know i guess you'd call anything a cult if it depends on your point of view really anything could be a fucking this is a cult really the show if from if you looked at it the right way i'll do the same thing together oh damn it so we all do the same thing say this show is a cult this show is a cult if you look at it the

right way you're all doing the same thing yeah i guess anything's a cult at that point so but i mean this isn't considered like you know the this isn't heaven's gate or some shit you know sacrificing people no this is just people that are nice and kind of just are christian together yeah talk about jesus a whole lot okay whatever it's all a light-hearted nightmare on our podcast morbid we're your hosts i'm alina urquhart and i'm ash kelly and our show is part true crime part spooky spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor.

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You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott?

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where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery Plus, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro,

who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran,

Chinook is available exclusively and ad- on wondery plus join wondery plus in the wondery app or on apple podcasts just the word fundamentalist well you hear that yeah well because it really leaned towards the what the fuck because when you hear the word fundamentalist you automatically think uh goes without logic and just goes to the to the i i it's kind of a whole cloth belief system anything fundamentalist like that rather than any kind of like uh you know parsing of like your adult you know your adult uh intelligence where you kind of you you sift out the shit where you're like okay yeah that's crazy obviously and this is i guess i like that and you know word fundamentalist to me means there's jesus but we all fuck each other's wives.

Yeah. While talking about Jesus. And then every time we find a psalm that justifies this. And every now and again, we make an exception and fuck somebody's daughter if she's 15. Well, you know, shit. Well, we will marry her afterwards. She will become one of our wives afterward. One of our many wives. One of our many wives.

One of our many wives. So that's not how this particular people there are not like. But that's what you think in your head automatically. Absolutely. When I hear the word fundamentalist, I think, what wacky shit are these people into? It's true. It's true. Because whenever, well, it's whenever anybody, whenever there's, whenever trouble is caused

by a religion of any kind, it's always a fundamentalist it's never like you know they're sort of religious they're a little kind of they're iffy about it but they blew up a building because of it like that doesn't happen you have to be seriously into that shit it's never just the methodist it's you know yeah it's never just you know a group of slightly interested lutherans that's not usually how it works. Or, you know, a group of, you know, partially observant Muslims, that's not usually the group. You've got to be hardcore into whatever you're doing of anything. That makes you, because usually just if you're hardcore into anything, including a religion or anything, that makes you kind of more likely to be crazy, not crazy, but more likely to.

Hyper-focused on that specific thing yeah and not tunnel vision is what i'm thinking of and not not seeing any outside uh and it's not options it's not even that the religion this isn't against religion although i am against religion don't get me wrong but i'm not not specifically the religion's fault not in this story yeah group of it works for some people i'll get that absolutely but the group of people involved in whatever organization this is not this but in any cult like fundamentalist group yeah yeah which this is not to be again to be specific pushes towards this one idea yeah but you know it's about everybody gets a dick sucked though that's usually part of it if there's a leader at least he's getting it by everybody by that's usually part of it. If there's a leader, at least he's getting it. Yeah, by everybody.

That's the thing. All involved. All hands on deck here. That's how it works. Or mouths in this case. All mouths on deck. Yeah. So, Michael Borden here. He's going to be the patriarch of a family here, and we'll talk about him.

He's a big, it's at the Plymouth Brethren Church. That's the church they go to in Little Tits here. He's the the Plymouth Brethren Church. That's the church they go to in Little Tits here. He's the Evangelical Plymouth Brethren Church. He's a Sunday school teacher there, very popular guy, real known, respected guy within his religious community and by his community in general. He is a native of Hannibal, Missouri. He was vice president of the cadmus communications corps uh science

press division there uh that's oh and neither do i have no idea what this man does it's something that you seem to have to be smarter than we are to do yeah so i'm not sure his wife here uh his wife kathy uh she will turn out to be uh she's a teacher she teaches uh later on she'll teach like homeschooled kids and she's a homemaker and all that sort of thing uh we'll talk about that but uh yeah michael grew up very catholic actually uh he grew up catholic with five siblings you know that whole thing big catholic family in missouri uh uh it's he's like uh his brother says that uh you know they grew up with kind of had an idyllic childhood in the 50s in a small town uh where he's from in missouri hannibal missouri is the uh is the mark twain oh that missouri it's that it's that hannibal missouri so this is like based on

the mark twain stories it's like we're fucking huck fins from and shit like torn up jeans and bare feet yeah this is a small town america usa he's from so they grew up with a you know a bunch of uh you know a bunch of siblings uh the uh the father was a middle management in a cement factory you know what i mean so kind of very middle class type of thing three boys and three girls like this is as like small town america fathers are you know middle not not in charge he's not the boss but he's you know he's working on it but he's working on it he's working his way up the cement factory ladder yeah to support his three kids it's very small town america 50s type of thing here americana type of bullshit american dream yeah at least in the 50s you see this in black and white we'll put

it that way because it's sort of real because you know at home somebody was drinking and beating somebody and there was other shit behind the scenes but from the outside it's a sitcom this guy's gonna trip over the ottoman on the way in the living room and pop up you know everyone's gonna get a giggle and then eat dinner and then his name comes across the screen absolutely so uh yeah they uh the they they rented their home though they never had enough money to own their home, but they had their shit together, basically. They would move up from better place to better home to better home. They were always renting, but they were always moving up from better to better. Their grandparents had a small farm in the country where they would go on the weekends and go in the summers and all that sort of thing.

So this is extremely old-timey uh just very very like fiction almost fictional nostalgia basically but it kind of was actually how they they uh they grew up they they fished in the mississippi river they did they were basically huck finn and mark twain these two running around yeah they uh that's how they felt too when they When they read the books, they felt like, hey, this is us. Yeah, they went to Catholic school and all that sort of thing. Michael ended up putting himself through college, even put himself through Northeast Missouri State University, which is Truman State now, actually, was that. He graduates in 1977. He's the first member of his family to get a degree

and come from college and he put himself through school because they didn't have enough money to just send their kids to school he studied to be an architect but then he went into graphic design and did that sort of thing so what he ends up it's a printing thing that he's doing like a design and print thing I know that much he ends up moving down to Mississippi, where his brother lived after he finished his college. And he works for a publishing agent down there, a big publishing firm, not a publishing agent. And he marries his high school sweetheart, Kathy. So he marries her. They settle down to raise a family.

It's right around this time that he leaves the catholic church yeah and his brother said he doesn't he never there was never a reason like he was never like god damn it wasn't like he said the priests are fucking kids i'm leaving the church like there was no like declaration of i am leaving wasn't like my grandmother when she left the church yeah italian grandma in case you don't know because i said it'll like 100 episodes ago but uh she used to be you know pretty catholic and go to church all the time and then she ended up getting a divorce yeah from my you know a natural grandfather who was a drunk and would beat the shit out of her and stuff so she got a divorce from him and was marrying my

another guy who's a nice man treat her very well was willing to you know take in her three daughters and all this type of shit. And the priest said, no, no, you can't do that. You can't get married. Again, that's against the church. And she said, what are you talking about? And he said, but I got a nice man, all this. And the priest said, well, you should just live together then.

And she said, isn't that worse? He goes, well, you know, he goes, yeah, but I can't sanction that. So my grandmother told the priest to go fuck himself and never went back i should live with him when you know outside of this and blah blah blah but i can't be honest woman with blah blah blah go fuck yourself in italian she left so yeah i think he did this but this was there was never any of this yeah from this guy oh he didn't speak italian yeah i'm sure he did back yeah i'm sure she she... He did the sign of the cross on the back and turned his back on her. Yeah, actually, he probably said, Eskifus, get the fuck out of here!

Putan! That's probably what he said if he was a fucking Italian priest. Yeah. Bring your son in here, I'm not interested. Yeah, that's right. So, yeah. Anyway, he said that he became a member of a Christian fundamentalist church, but Michael never tried to convert his brother said he never came at me with a pamphlet or never

was like, hey, you should join this shit. He just kind of did it his own way. You know, that's what his brother said. Quote, Mike was always smart and bookish, very serious and industrious. You could say he neverous, you could say. He was never really what you would call one of the boys. He wasn't much into sports and hanging out and watching TV and drinking beer. It wasn't like he wasn't social because he was, and he liked good company as well as anyone.

It was just that he was a little more focused and straight. He was just kind of a real straight-laced kind of a guy. and straight he's just kind of a real straight laced kind of a you know kind of a guy um they said uh his wife kathy was his brother steven michael's brother steven said that she was quote the sweetest person you could ever meet uh you know just all about her family and her children and and dedicated to all that and that's all she was about uh they had kids pretty quickly they have uh right away after they get married they have a couple of sons named justin and uh justin and james and then uh later on they have they wait a while they have two kids and then wait a while and have three more uh they have caitlin they have

cara and they have david okay okay that's that's the progression of of children here uh now uh poor david's the outcast everybody justin and james they are yeah they are matching names and they're like 15 years older than him too so he's younger than his sisters who are close in age and he's a few years younger than them so you have like two older boys the two middle girls and then this young kid is by himself yeah that sucks if you're david yeah it's the worst nobody to hang no one wants to hang out with you no dimitri or some shit like that no no no everybody else no david and duncan nothing god damn it nothing there uh he ends up taking another job michael does at a rival at a rival uh printing place uh there i guess he's good at his job so they end up moving to north carolina uh there he talks about

uh he has a little uh ends up doing a little kind of a little side company of his own for a little bit but ends up staying with the company that he's with and uh i guess this was the time his brother said when digital printing was really kind of a new thing and uh he didn't want to put all the money it would take to to put the equipment in for all this type of thing he didn't have the initial investment to really go into business for himself uh so he stayed there uh his brother said quote he was just not ready to take such a big step he had job security and a good salary right where he was uh mike had a family to think of so he was mainly that's he wasn't he was ambitious but he also thought about hey i need to put food

on the table type of thing so he's very much feet on the ground type of guy i mean i guess you could he's got his head in the clouds or the heavens i guess but he's also feet firmly on the ground so uh uh he ends up uh uh moving to they moved to little tits here to southeastern pennsylvania uh he moved his family uh he moved his it was hard because they were trying to sell a house there while he was carolina yeah while he was working so he was going back and forth trying to like find a place to live for the family while trying to sell a house and work at a new job yeah in a city that's not driving distance really so it's like it's a that's a drive from you know basically philadelphia of charlotte's not a you know that's not a two-hour trip you can you

can make three times a week there uh so uh it was just very tough on him uh there so they end up uh they end up finding a house finally uh it's in they don't live technically in little tits they live in warwick township which is just an outside place but it's right by little tits and little tits is the center of everything that happens here and it's called little tits so we're not gonna do warwick township if little tits is involved uh so they move into a brand new home uh he's doing well at his job and they move into a big nice home in the spring of 1997 in Warwick Township, right outside of Little Tits. So, yeah, right down there. Right in the cleavage?

Heading south, you know. Anyway. So, people said that Michael at work was very much studious about work, didn't talk about outside work work didn't talk about private life didn't hang out with the people in the in the office didn't do the all any of that shit didn't do the happy hour hey we're all going out tonight mike is like nope gotta see you later dinner's on the table at six o'clock i gotta go not interested i live alone i still use that excuse yeah dinner's sorry i got fucking hang out with these people a lot going on Yeah, I do not understand the work socializing. I don't get it.

You spend fucking 40 plus hours a week with these people doing something horrible and then you want to have them and drink? Do something you don't want to do? Yeah. You're going to hang out. What are you going to talk about? Guess what? Same shit you've been doing all fucking day.

You want to do that? I want to get as far away. When I had a day job, I want to get as far away from those fucking people and not think about them, hear from them. I don't want to know anything about them outside of work. I know guys that I don't work with that are unbelievable dudes and I will hang out with them that are not that do not work and do the same thing. I know that's better.

I can hang out with those guys. But people from your job, five o'clock hits. Someone says a word to me. I'm like, I don't know you. I do not know you at 5.02. They're not paying me to talk to you anymore. Sorry. Fuck you.

I'm out. I swear to God. I was the worst person to fucking work with like that. I don't care. I don't want to know you. No, I'm not going to the barbecue this weekend. Eat a dick. I'll be away.

What am I going to be doing? Staying away from you. Thinking about how I don't have to talk to you and enjoying that reveling in it you fucking moron i'm gonna drink about this that's what i'm gonna be doing it's gonna be great i'm gonna drink about how much i don't want to go back to work on monday and see you again yeah that's what i'm gonna do can't wait jesus christ a woman named katherine hart who uh worked with michael borden said, quote, Mr. Borden was very private about his personal life. We knew very little of his life outside the walls of the company, except that he had a

number of children that his wife didn't work and that she homeschooled the kids. Mr. Borden rarely socialized or took part in company social functions. Like when people do those team building, we're going to go team building camping trip, team building, team building is we're gonna go team building camping trip team building team building is time away from you that makes me more likely to want to be in the same fucking room with you if i have to share a fucking tent with you after i had to watch you eat your goddamn lunch every fucking day for the last six months i will strangle you leave you in the woods and blame it on a wild

animal i swear to christ i'm not doing it fuck that camping trip that's a thing you're dying in the woods they go out and do that i will fucking murder you never they'll be a i'll come back alone and go i don't know i woke up and they were all gone i think animals got them oh there was blood everywhere i had to get home i zipped my tent up super tight so i guess that's why they didn't get me. I don't know what the fuck happened. No, not happening. That's how that zip tied the two zippers shut. Yeah. Yeah.

Jesus Christ. Everybody said that he was super religious at work because when he first got there, he asked a bunch of different people at work about churches in the area because he didn't know. So he was like, is, are there any, do you know? And he was kind of probably feeling around too, to see if anybody attended the church that he wanted to go to if he could kind of find an in that way uh but nobody at work really was into that some guys do that just to get that strange in the office that's true too yeah they're like anything about church oh really oh yeah maybe we could talk to me about it assholes i'm gonna go get a drink i'm gonna go

talk about that talk about church let's get a drink and talk about Jesus. What do you say? All right, wine. Fine. Whatever. Whatever. Whatever you want. He tolerates that.

Yeah. He ends up choosing the Monterey Bible Chapel. It's a Christian fundamentalist congregation, basically. Everybody says the women sit separate from the men at the church services. It's that sort of thing it's very very fundamentalist uh but they're not it's weird because they don't seem like to from the outside you'd see that and think that was kind of odd which it sort of is i would say it's a little bizarre um and whatever your beliefs are but that's just strange from a societal point of view we'll separate society and church outside the doors and inside the doors.

And if you look in the doors, you go, that's fucking weird. Maybe if you're in there, it's fine. But from the outside, a little strange. That always fascinates me about anything with religion, where they're like, we just have to separate the sexes. How fucking dangerous are you that you're only pushing that on us because you're afraid of what you would do with the other sex. Yeah, exactly.

I'm not doing that, bro. That's what I mean. I can hang out in the same room with a woman and not try to fuck her. Those are your thoughts. Although, let's be realistic, they are going to fuck. Whether you mix them, separate them, it doesn't matter. That's just what we do.

That's why we exist. That's why we're built the way we're built, bro. Yeah, it's the thing. I like your little tits. That's what what we do. That's why we exist. That's why we're built the way we're built, bro. Yeah, it's the thing. I like your little tits. That's what I'm saying. So the woman at work there, the Catherine Hart, said it was a little, found it a little bit odd that he was in such a conservative church. She knew about the Amish people, but the work people didn't know that even these people existed in the area, like these churches. They just didn't realize this was a thing uh but uh you know they said that uh they knew the church they knew the county everybody's a lot pretty religious but didn't

quite know that it was to this extent of that but you know whatever he was a nice guy to everybody so they just shrug their shoulders that's fine fine. He was a church elder, Sunday school teacher, like we said. People called him a perfectionist and said that he, quote, wouldn't preach a sermon until every I was dotted and every T was crossed. That was a quote from this book I found. So that's a big thing. He's a real perfectionist. One time, this is a weird thing. One time, a female employee gave him her notice at the office because she was going to another job.

And he asked, Michael asked her why she would want to leave a company where her supervisor was a man who had accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. And she said, I don't know how to fucking answer that. I got another job. Bye. And she left. She was just like, that was super fucking weird. Say that question again. What?

Fuck are you talking about, man? Two weeks. That's what I said. I don't understand that. Why would you want to? I've accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. Two weeks, bro. Wait a second.

Wait. You need more money. Wait. But hold on. I get that your kid is sick and you need to pay his bills and you need to make more money, but I've accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. That should do it, right? Clearly.

Your kid feels better now. Clearly, I'm the boss. Okay, well, I know your mom needs that operation, but I'll pray for her. I've told you, me and Jesus, like this. I'll pray. You're in. She's fine. You stay here.

You make 34K a year. It's fine. Fuck out of here. What's wrong with you? Wow. So this has become apparently Lancaster County in this area has in this era has really become kind of a magnet for people of this ilk of kind of just more religious and that want to homeschool this big homeschooling contingency in this county way more than your average we'll put it that way uh they said that uh they did a a little census of it here and uh more than a thousand families were educated were doing the

homeschooling in in like 2000 2001 they said that uh in 2001 one in every 10 children were homeschooled in lancaster county which is 10 a lot compared to the you know just the national average here and uh there was at least 17 support groups and co-ops and stuff for homeschooling families different groups kids groups and all because you have to kind of set up a whole i would assume see i i i don't want to say too much because i'm not an expert on homeschooling but i'm just assuming that if you're homeschooling and you you want your kids to have a full experience you you have to set up kind of need others well you have to set up not only others all the things that they would encounter in that building that one place that you just send them to go.

You have to piece it all together on your own as far as, you know, different types of socialization and different. It's a boring-ass school dance. Yeah, different stuff like that. Real boring, yeah. All your parents are there. This is great. We're going to shop around the school dance. It's just you.

It's just you. Hold on. Wait. There's a family down the street with three nine-year-olds. They're going to come, too. So it's you at 15 and three nine-year-olds. You should have stuff in common. You should be a blast.

Talk about Jesus. Yeah. Some people said, one couple that moved there, they moved there from Allentown. And they said in Allentown they had a really really hard time finding resources for their homeschooled kids but once they moved to lancaster county it was no problem they said in lancaster county homeschooling is so prevalent that we really uh we really prayerfully have to decide what homeschool activities to involve our children and prayerfully have to decide the fuck does that mean i don't know uh and then said that uh yeah it's she said quote it's almost like a mini bible belt here so yeah this area is a mini bible belt uh so

9 000 people of 9 000 belters so uh well half of them we should say 4 500 is the other 40 the other 50 percent so do the fuck no so uh the other 50% are ultra not religious in this town like fuck those people uh so a lot of people said that and that's what they do too a lot of the times homeschooling used to be kind of back in the day you think of homeschooling as like parents who were like kind of like over-educated parents who were like you know uh there was a professor and they're like you know my kid's not getting a good enough education i'm going to give him that was kind of the the kind of the i don't think it was ever like that but that was always kind of the outer like facade of homeschooling when i was a kid i always thought of that's what homeschooled it's the same way i see fundamentalism

that's how you see homeschool yeah whereas homeschooling though is actually mainly people who want to incorporate religious beliefs into their into the end of the school process so uh it's and this is what this is here they hope that uh they hope all these kids one lady says they hope that homeschooling would keep their children from bullying drugs and violence that public schools have i mean yeah well i mean if you keep them in the house the whole time you get bullied at homeschool jesus you're. You're really fucking up. Call it. Tell your mom, your brother's being a dick at that point. Right?

So, uh, uh, one woman said, quote, I struggle with the perception that people homeschool to keep children at home and, and isolated in a little box.

It takes more than that to stick with the fortitude required of homeschooling. It's not like we keep our kids in a little bubble and expect them to marry other homeschoolers. It's not like, it's like a, it's like an, it's not like an Amish, little amish community or something it's not like that at all so i kept gotta give them their say and whatever so that's what they're saying here now uh uh their

child the bordens kathy and michael borden and we kind of know their history now and they're willing to you know go out on a limb here for their religion. It means a lot to them. So they have their daughter, Kara, is 14 years old in 2005. And she meets a boy in the kind of homeschool network there. It's one of their social network. Facebook group or something? No, it's where they get the kids together know their social network one of the facebook group or something no it's where they get the kids together yeah they're actually they get the kids together in groups so they socialize here and uh we'll talk about the boy she meets here now she has a

brother and a sister that we talked about here uh she meets david ludwig uh or ludwig whatever he's 18 years old though that's a problem she problem. She's 14. He's 18. That's illegal and also creepy. Right. Also not cool. That's very strange. That's young freshman and old senior. Not okay. No.

In my book. Yeah, not cool. So the Ludwigs here, his father, his name's Gregory. He's a commercial pilot. So hopefully not for American Airlines. I'd fucking hate him. Because then we'd hate his goddamn guts. Or Southwest, and he's not even really a pilot.

He's just a bus driver. You know, just a bus driver with more mirrors, I guess. Basically that. Same shit, and knows how to work some gauges here. And if they work for Southwest, obviously. If the gauges work. If they work, that's the thing. Southwest, those planes, really, they're from the 1930s, the ones they're flying. So I don't think there's a lot of gauges work, if they work, that's the thing. Southwest, those planes really, they're from the 1930s, the ones they're flying.

So I don't think there's a lot of gauges. I think there's just like an up lever that you have to push on and like a down lever. And then I believe there's some hamsters and wheels running. Southwest planes are so shitty, they have ashtrays welded fucking shut on the armrest still. And an arm crank for the landing exactly come on put it down there charlie and they got a guy on the bottom i'm working as fast as i can still talks like that for some reason still the original guy it's fucking terrible oh boy decommissioned eastern airline planes it seems like so the fuck it doesn't matter yeah i could

have gotten to to nashville from d Dallas faster if I rode a Greyhound. Yeah, like the bus, like an actual actual dog. Just ridden that. We'll talk about that in the bonus this week for Stitcher Premium there. We'll get into all that shit here. What a mess. What a fucking mess. So Gregory is David's father, commercial pilot, like I said, hopefully for a real airline.

So Gregory is David's father, commercial pilot, like I said, hopefully for a real airline. And Jane is his mother. And she's a homemaker and teaches the kids, too. And they're all very involved. Different church, but same homeschooling network, but just a different specific church they go to. They don't live right by each other either, so it's a geographic thing for churches as well. So David, he's an 18-year-old old he lives at home uh he's into dirt biking yeah typical rural pennsylvania kid uh he's into dirt biking likes to hunt and shit because they eat like a lot of deer they hunt and eat deer the

whole family they live in the fucking woods i mean that's what they do uh he's uh trained to be an emt recently so i said this is like adnan i mean mean, it's an 18-year-old kid. Adnan was 17, but whatever. Trained to be an EMT. Nice kid. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Not quite as smart as Adnan, but religious. We're talking about like hillbilly Adnan here, like rural Adnan is what it is. So that's

interesting to me. The religious thing really caught my eye. And then also her family, it really has parallels in that to me. And then it deviates. Yeah. So, yeah, he worked at Circuit City. Oh, also.

That's how you know it's 2005. Because Circuit City had employees. He's almost about to not work. Yeah. Yeah. That's. Yeah. Maybe that's what.

Who knows here. He was sitting here around going, fuck, man. This Best Buy is really kicking our ass. What are you going to do, man? He's trying to put together how to save Circuit City. There's no more CDs, you guys. I don't know what we're going to do. This episode's about a man's struggle to save a dying corporate empire.

That's what it is. His co-workers there said that he was a normal guy joked around all the time hung out uh would read his bible during breaks like that just kind of a the nice dorky christian kid who's you know makes jokes and shit like that uh every both families the boardens and ludwigs the people parents are involved in the children's lives uh you know they know what the kids are doing they do shit with the kids they're always with them they're in the children's lives. They know what the kids are doing. They do shit with the kids. They're always with them. They're in the house a lot.

They know they're friends. Everybody's families are intertwined. Now, the Ludwigs are very much into hunting, like I said. There's pictures of them online that they had, because we'll talk about it. David had, it's 2004, 2005. He had all the internet accoutrement of a teenager of 2004, 2005. He had blogs. He had a MySpace page.

They had all that shit. So on one of his blogs, he has a bunch of pictures from them saying, Hunting 2004. And it's, you know, they have deer, dead deer hanging, and then they have all of them all at the table eating dinner together and all that kind of shit. You know, whatever. Whatever shit here uh there's a blog post here uh that he posts at one point in his blog and uh it's pretty jesusy he's pretty jesusy he says quote okay people here

it is uh the zanga i don't know what that is z-a-nN-G-A. Something religious, I'm sure. The Zanga or Zanja site for the barn. Capital T, capital B. The barn. For lack of a better name, I think at least for now we shall call it that. If any of you feel any leading at to what we should call, I think leaning as, he said leading at, to what we should call slash name this place. Please voice your suggestions. Basically, we are in desperate need of finances and time right now, although it looks kind of hopeless from for a human standpoint. I have faith that God is going to work all this out according to his all capitals. Good pleasure.

Yeah. OK, for those of you who have absolutely no idea what the heck I'm talking about, here's the scoop. Basically, about three weeks ago, Sam Lohr and myself, David Ludwig, felt led to clean up the upstairs of my, the Ludwig's, barn to create a place that we could come after our Monday night and Friday night youth meetings or any time to worship and diligently seek God's face. The amazing thing about it is neither Sam or I knew the other was thinking or praying about it till about a week later. Since then, a bunch of us have gotten together twice a week on the barn and just amazing things have been accomplished. It's truly a miracle. God has enabled far more to be completed than any of us ever imagined. Glory.

So, so now the need is to finish this project, Lord willing, capital, uh, before next Monday, anyone is willing to come, before next Monday. Anyone is willing to come once it's finished. We only ask that you seek God's face before you come see if he wants you to be there. If so, be welcome and come. God bless you all. David. That's too much.

That's a lot. How old is that kid? He's 18 years old. Oh, my God. That is a lot for 18. Fuck. My blog post when I was 18 would have been, smoke weed every day. I live in a town called Little Tits. Where them titties at?

That would have been my 18-year-old blog post at that point. 18-year-old blog. I don't have time for this shit. Yeah. That's what I've written. I don't know. Yeah. I don't want to write.

It would have been some shit like that. It would have been some fucked up rap lyrics. You know what I mean? Like a picture of like fucking Michael Madsen from Reservoir Dogs and Superfly. That would have been what I would have had. That's my blog post. Check it out. I don't understand blogs at all.

I don't understand the self-importance of it. It's not. Everyone needs to hear this, even though no one has commissioned me to write this. No one's asked for it or commissioned it. Nobody's paying me. No one's asking. There's no 401k involved. There you go.

I'm just doing this shit. There you go. I've got too much time. I've got a lot to say. And everybody wants to know about my fucking Starbucks order. Everybody needs to know about my, ask me about my Starbucks order. Hey, you know what I get? I'll tell you. Well, you got to ask. I ain't going to tell you if you're not going to order hey you know what i get i'll tell you well

you gotta ask i ain't gonna tell you if you're not gonna ask i'm just not gonna just tell you i'm gonna bombard you with it it's all a light-hearted nightmare on our podcast morbid we're your hosts i'm alina urquhart and i'm ash kelly and our show is part true crime part spooky and part comedy the stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother****er lied.

Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes. You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife.

Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of part one and watching along with part two as it airs on Max starting April 21st. Bye bye. The official Jinx podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. Now, on her, Kara, they both have their own websites, too, because back then it was a

big deal to have your own website. It was like all the kids had websites. Yeah, kids used to all have websites back then. Oh, my it doesn't cost anything fucking exhausting you could that was the beginning of go daddy where you could just do like if it's like you know thirty dollars for a year of web hosting and you could you know that's so exhausting cut and paste shit into there on her website kara said that she was interested in a bunch of you know she's interested in her church and her youth group and her friends. She posted on Ludwig's page, David's page here. He said that maybe his hair was too long and he should cut it.

And she said, quote, Yes, your hair is flipping long and I like it. You know, they're flirting back and forth, kind of. But they're doing they have some coded language here and there where, yeah, it's a lot of private messaging and some shit that only they know about. And we'll talk about it here. But, uh,

David on his site, he lists his, uh, on his, I think it's his MySpace page. He lists his, his interest as rock climbing computers, dirt bikes,

and quote, pulling stupid pranks. So it sounds like an 18 year old kid who lives in rural pennsylvania basically uh the friend of theirs said quote these are not anti-social kids they were not these were not uninvolved families they were normal kids who both actively professed to be christians i found her myspace page like screenshot here of her myspace page uh she was care bear uh triple zero i'm sure there was a lot of other care bears uh care k-a-r-e there's still a million of those uh yeah a lot of those here uh there's a picture of herself kind of making like a duck face she looks like a fucking

she's a kid she's like 14 years old here uh yeah they said that you know she's she makes that face because she has braces and she doesn't want to show her braces. That's why she makes the face like that because she's 14. Also, that's the face you make when you have braces. Yeah. Anyway. Your face forces you to make that stupid face. Yeah. So she says she interests are, quote, Jesus, all caps, double exclamation.

That's number one. Jesus. Church. My youth group. Other youth groups. Family. Friends. My doggy. Kids. My youth group. Other youth groups. Family. Friends. My doggy.

Kids. All capital letters. Babysitting. Soccer. Basketball. Football. Talking on the phone. Food.

Eating. Taking pictures. Cooking. Guitar. The beach. Camp. Taking walks. Riding my bike.

Just being outside. Having parties. Capital letters. Oh yeah, baby. I don't know what that means. Going to parties making new friends helping out music ddr what's ddr uh i don't know down to right we don't know what that is uh all cap this so because there's that and then it shows how

little she is maybe yeah music comedy so maybe a band, DDR. Maybe. Yeah, music, comedy. So maybe. Maybe it's a Christian band. Probably. Ah, there we go. She could just write, fucking, I like to do it. I don't like to sit still. Yeah, lots of stuff. No, she writes everything she likes.

It says likes, and she wrote, here's all the stuff I like. Buckle up, fuckers. She follows instructions. She does. She's told to do shit, and she does it. She said. Fundamentalist, damn it. She said food. My space fundamentalist

likes here's all of them she said food eating and cooking just say food food eating cooking everything involved with food we get it you like to eat it and make it and cook it and eat it and make it and have it uh but it shows how much of a kid she still is here because there's all of that like parties oh yeah baby and then but she puts in capital letters candy and push pops like she's a kid she's 14 she likes push pops for christ's sake you could leave push pops out because you said candy yeah well push pops are ice cream so what do you want oh yeah you're right what is the other one what is the that's a ring pop no the push up push up pop push up pop push pops i think they're the ice cream one that's the ice cream one yeah sticking fucking shitty

sherbet. And then she puts, yeah, gross. Then she puts shopping and hugging on there. So she's a kid. That sounds like a 14-year-old. Expertise, she says, dot, dot, dot, babysitting, three exclamation points. She's a babysitter. Occupation, artist, industry, art.

So there, she joined in 2004. Then she also wrote on it, quote, books books are gay which is the funniest fucking thing you had jesus exclamation exclamation you don't get to books are gay you have to understand too if you're younger or whatever gay was used at a different okay in the 50s gay was used to mean happy right then for like 25 years it meant to be it was used to to denote homosexual not even derogatory just yeah just say that dude likes to fuck that dude right that's what that's called it's called gay like that was all that was and then there was a period in the 2000s for about 10 years where just everything was just called gay like if something wasn't like you didn't like

something you didn't want to do you just didn't want to be like that's gay i don't want to do that and like everyone did it it was what gay people would say it was the fucking weirdest thing nobody took any offense to it and then at some point gay people went hey why the fuck is that everything bad why does it have to be gay and then we went oh yeah that's not cool and then people stopped doing it but at that point books are gay was just something people will go and go yeah books are gay and they'd fucking keep going it's weird it makes sense because it's something i don't want to do you know what else i don't want to do yeah it's like a dick yeah you know what else i don't want to do gay shit gay shit at all yeah that makes sense

maybe she does we don't know i don't want to read books i don't want to do gay shit that's both gay to me she wasn't sent to the all-girls school so we don't know what's her i'm just saying my personal opinion yeah yeah i don't want to read, and I don't want to do gay shit. No, I really don't want to do either. I like books. I'm not into the gay shit, but I mean, if you're into it, fucking rock it out. Go nuts. I don't care.

Go crazy. You suck all the dick you want. So go nuts, man. So she lies about her age, too. She lists her age at 17 on her MySpace profile, which is interesting because she's 14. So why is she doing that? But I mean, it looks like a kid. Her page is bright pink with little black boxes and all that shit.

And she had like rainbows in the background and all that. I mean, she just looked like a little kid made it. She's a kid. Now, he, and you can tell him, he's just kind of a dorky guy too. One of his blog posts here, he talks about on October 24th, 2005, he talks about going to see the new Wallace and Gromit movie. How old was he? 18. Visiting a college with his parents.

Why is he seeing that movie? Well, listen, and he thinks it's like he's getting away with something, too. This is subversive for him. I swear to Christ. Listen to this quote i did get to go see uh were rabbit the new wallace and gromit gromit movie with a bunch of friends i enjoyed the movie even if a bunch of people didn't lol it did have some crude humor but then he says hold on we'll laugh about it in a second because there's more then he says quote but some of it was real with a bunch of r's really

funny lol and then he has an asterisk wicked grin this was pre emo emojis on there yeah wicked grin so he's fucking wicked grinning about all that crude fucking fart joke all those subversive humor and the were rabbit. You know? Wow. That's I'm just trying to give you a level of what these kids are about. What we're dealing with. These kids. That's how kind of innocent they are. They post that.

They go to see this and they have to be like, I know some people are offended by balls and grommet, but I know it's crude, but it's kind of funny, man. Wicked grin. Like, yeah, man, he's going to lose his shit when he sees spongebob well it's 2005 he's seen it maybe he's very offended yeah very offended he thinks that it's not allowed in his house he doesn't like the uh lifestyle that patrick and he are leaving and he's like no no no so they were holding hands oh no no he, no. He says, quote, so yes, and now today I shall be doing school, and tomorrow I'm going to visit stupid York Tech School, compliments of my lovely parents, LOL. But yes, now I must run and do school, so y'all have a good day.

God bless. He says that he enjoys on his thing soft air gun wars, you know, like those airsoft guns. Yeah, fucking my friend Rod used guns. Airsoft guns, yeah. Fucking, my friend Rod used to have them. They were great. He'd have them all over the house. You'd just pick them up, and he had targets everywhere.

He'd just be walking around, just pick it up and go, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, at a target, and fucking shoot 10 of those things off. It was so much fun. Ridiculous. Giant 12-year-old's house.

And he also said, he said he liked soft, airsoft gun wars, and quote, getting into trouble. Yeah. So, look at kid uh he's got a bunch of pictures and all that sort of shit like i said uh he's also working as a lifeguard on the side he trained as an emt uh he everybody said he's kind of a charming dude he's like kind of a

nice happy-go-lucky very smiley likes to make jokes yeah charming kind of jokes clean jokes no fart humor and he's like uh he's got like blonde curly hair like he's like a you know kind of a handsomey blonde curly hair kind of guy you know i don't know it's kind of kid i would not have liked in high school whatsoever put it that way i would have fucked with him yeah yeah definitely i'm like you fuck because i your life is too good yeah i can tell i can tell you're too happy. Not OK. So, yeah, one of his friends said, quote, when I first met him, I thought he was a really, really cool guy. Just said he was a real charming guy. She talked a lot about soccer all the time and bands and getting baptized and all that sort of thing.

Yeah, she would. She'd write like messages on his MySpace wall there and shit like that. But it was all innocuous shit. One thing she said, he said he thought he was looking a little fat on his myspace wall there and shit like that but it was all innocuous shit uh one thing she said he said he thought he was looking a little fat on his page and she said quote very skinny babe get that through your little head so that's a little she threw a babe in there little babe get that through your little head oh look at that she's looking at his yeah uh another time uh she asked a mutual friend of hers so how is is school and crap? Mine's really boring and all that. Typical teen shit.

But the problem is there's other shit that you don't see just from their MySpace pages and their Christian-y lives. Everything looks happy, but there's a lot of shit going on under the surface that we don't fucking know about. Like at one point here, we find out that old Kara was sneaking out at night through a couple of her friends that she's sending messages to online. She's sneaking out at night to engage in a sexual relationship with David. Uh-oh. Uh-oh. Shit just took a left turn. Yeah.

Not okay there. Not cool, we'll put it that way. Uh, not okay. They're, uh, not, not cool. We'll put it that way. Uh, there's a lot of posts too that are, uh, that are, uh, a little bit interesting that are found later on where they find, uh, pictures of Cara in kind of, uh, scantily clad shit like that on, on his computer, uh, shit like that. Uh, they said that, uh, you know know not many of their friends really knew this

relationship was going on only a couple of them very close friends uh it was just they they kind of had to keep it private you know what i mean and i mean it wasn't like i said not not one of the biggest not the biggest deal in the world kids do this this is an adnan and hayman lee the only thing is 14 18 i don't like that that's. Yeah. They're both really like seven, but they're in physical age. They're 14 and 18, which is not okay. But otherwise, they're not doing anything that's really that crazy. They hang out in the same social group. It's not like he's 25.

It's kind of like in high school. That's why high school, like, I'd love it if it was ninth and 10th graders and then 11th and 12th graders somewhere else. And another building. And another building. You can't mix 18 year olds with 14 year olds, 18 year old boys and 14 year old girls who a lot of times are developed physically. Like you can't let an 18 year old boy around that girl.

I'm sorry. That's fucking dangerous. Like that kid's going to know. I don't trust that fucking kid at all. So, uh, yeah, they, they said, we'll talk about this. There's this psychologist that talks about how kids keep lies that's what they do uh they said that uh uh uh basically that kids keep lies and until we realize that no one's ever going to make a dent in fixing kids or helping kids uh they

they they just think their parents can't deal with whatever they're doing they said this guy talks about every child has a hidden life to some extent. Every kid. It's a part of establishing identity and you need to have that. You said that the psychologist says, quote, you just hope that whatever whatever keeper the secret they keep is benign enough that it's not something hurtful. It's just whatever they said. But they learn shit.

You know, mom leaves the room to check the laundry. The child feeds a tuna sandwich. He doesn't like to the dog, and mom never knows it. There you go. That's when the kid figures it out. They go, holy shit, they can't see in my brain. If I did something, no one saw it, it's in my head, and then I get away with it. Kids don't realize that at first. You think your parents can see everything when you're three.

They said, that's just what kids do basically but their parents were worried uh katherine was starting to worry about cara being into boys the mother was worried cara's mother uh one of their friends said quote katherine was concerned that cara was boy crazy like many young teens uh she was emailing back and forth and she poured her heart out to one of her friends what should i do what a situation how to avoid a family tragedy is what the mother was emailing to her friends because her daughter had a boyfriend she didn't want her pregnant to get pregnant i think that's what they were going for there so that's a tragedy that's a tragedy that would be fucking tragedy tragedy that's that's a lot to put on that maybe that's why they they're so secretive about it extra stank on that

on that event really hey this is yeah and you wonder why little girls when they do get pregnant are fucking petrified because they think even if i can get whatever way out of this i want out yeah if my mom finds out i'm dead she's gonna fucking kill me because you know why because this is a tragedy it's a trap and she thinks of it as a going to fucking kill me. Because you know why? Because this is a tragedy. It's a tragedy. She thinks of it as literally a fucking tragedy. This is why you tell your kids not to fuck as much as possible and then leave a trail of condoms from the room. Because they're going to fuck eventually. It's going to happen. Make sure that it's safe at least.

Make sure to avoid a tragedy. We'll put it that way. Tragedy bag. Tragedy bag. Tragedy bag. One of his mother's friends said, quote, that the mother had told her that, quote, she discovered boys and vice versa. She had some boyfriends in the neighborhood, and her parents put the kibosh on that. Her parents were not having that. They said she was a bubbly, outgoing girl who babysat kids and played soccer and all that shit. And she doesn't need any boyfriends or anything like that at home.

Everybody said that the home life with the Borden seemed just fine. So everybody gets along and the kids were social, you know, when they do the groups. And they said that's usually an indication that things are going well at home when the kids are socializing well outside of the home. They said that that Catherine was katherine was really uh she expressed concern about cara's interest in boys to the church a lot she would ask for advice from other church members uh they said that cara was allowed to go out unsupervised as long as she was with girls and literally the other people were like you shouldn't let her go out unsupervised because even if she goes out with girls they could find boys yeah like you should keep them like you should put her in a room with a padlock on the door like sorry that's you

can't do that that's she can't leave the house and you not know what she's doing she's clearly going to change her clothes obviously and go be a wild little whore 10 minutes later tragedy shit's going to be tragic in 10 minutes unbelievable that's what anybody tells me they're pregnant from now on i'm gonna going to go, you're all tragic. That is a tragedy. Tragedy. I'm sorry. It's a tragedy.

So, yeah. So they would basically get, they got to the kids. Kara and David got to know each other better because they couldn't really act like they were that close at the meetings of the kids. So they got to know each other online, private messaging and all that sort of shit. And apparently they'd escalated by the summer to a full blown physical relationship. She'd sneak out to have sex with him. One of his friends said, quote, he'd park around the corner and she'd come meet him and they'd take it from there.

So that's basically what they were doing. They said that thatid started sneaking into the borden's home at night to see her you know she didn't have him come in the window and that sort of thing uh they were having that's my line yeah that's well that's different yeah that's i'll fucking kill you keep your dick outside my house that's a different story inside your pants outside my house outside the house yeah when it's out when you're inside the house dick is inside the pants that's you can keep inside inside when you're outside do whatever you want with your dick just away from her yeah so uh yeah they were having uh all sorts of uh they they

they're exchanging tons of inappropriate messages and pictures and all sorts of shit like that they're having a full-blown kind of steamy relationship here with on their computers on their phones because this is right when you start could start sending pictures taking and sending pictures with your phone that was right in there uh and at this point too these parents they they weren't there this was the beginning of any kind of social media and pictures on the phones parents weren't even aware that shit wasn't on their radar right kids at this point could get away with everything oh jesus now parents want passwords of their social media and they have fucking phantom accounts where they stalk their kids and shit like that i swear to god it's true they do it whereas back then they didn't even know they were like

what's my space they had no idea so uh yeah they said that uh the carers parents were they wanted this shit to be cut off uh they didn't want them hanging out at one point they even uh cut off their internet access at their house so that she could not communicate with him so that's the extent they went fucking hard line because you've still got homeschool to do none of us love email earthlink is offline it's 2004 i'm sure they had earth probably yeah so it's not happening so no one's having it. So, yeah, they this they didn't want them to have a thing. A friend of theirs said the parents were trying to separate the two.

The parents just didn't approve of the relationship. And, you know, it's kind of a they said that. Yeah. They said that they pointed out that that was premarital chastity was the was of extreme importance to them. And they didn't want her to ruin to have a tragedy. So in their mind. So, yeah, a year earlier, they were so serious about this. In 2004, Mike Borden, the father here, presented the other daughter, Caitlin, not Kara, Caitlin, with a diamond ring symbolized that, quote, he would do everything within his ability to help her stay pure until she

was married that is disgusting you have no business no what you have no business in your daughter's pants first of all you there's you have no power of her pants and you should stay the fuck away from it you have no there's nothing nothing is within your ability that's the thing you're nothing unless she's in the living room. Outside of that, it's out of your jurisdiction. I'm going to help you stay pure. And give her a diamond ring so you just essentially married your daughter. You know how you're going to stay pure? You're going to be engaged to your dad.

That's how it works. That ought to do it. That ought to do it. Someone asks you, you want to hook up? You're like, nope. Already engaged. To who? My pops.

Just twinkle those fingers out that goes yeah so uh gross the reverend at the church said quote he would do everything he could to keep her pure until she married so that's gonna do just i don't get on your knees and swat dicks all day they're way too into their daughter's vaginas like they're way too concerned about their whole life revolves around who's trying to fuck my daughter right now is everybody trying to fuck my daughter is everyone trying like calm the shit down oh he's like got charts and graphs of proximity of dick yeah he does it's here see this now this we have a 30 yard there's 30 yards adjacent to the house is three different penises now we can't have this now i'm gonna put up i'm gonna put up some sort of shading system like a penis blockade down there on the sidewalk a netting system that

will stop incoming semen from getting over the wall and causing a tragedy now now if they use a catapult now hold on wait we gotta i gotta put up defenses this is getting ridiculous oh my daughter's purity depends on it they They said it was just boys in general. And then David's from the spring to the summer when he started hooking up with him. His friends, everybody said his behavior started to change a little bit here. Well, you got pussy. He's all happy. This is great.

Fuck yeah, he's going to change. Fuck Jesus. He's doing a little jig. No, fuck it. Thank you, Jesus. I found another reason to thank Jesus for this wonderful pussy. That's what he says. That's not me.

That's Jesus led me to the bus. Oh, Jesus. It's great in there. Lord, Lord, Lord. Was that a meeting of his gatherers and a congregation of his supporters? The only place warmer and more comfortable than a church is a vagina. Oh, you know it. Well, David had not been so perfect a little before the spring.

Late winter of the last year, he disappeared with a girlfriend that he had at the time, who was 16, took her without her parents' knowledge. This wasn't an approved outing, to his family's hunting cabin in another county. Fuck Shaq. We're not sure exactly what happened, but apparently he brought her back voluntarily, and both the girl's family and the Ludwigs decided to

not involve the police and handle it all internally, I'm sure, within the church. We'll let Reverend Bob figure out what we should do about this. One of the friends said that the girl was so traumatized, she stopped talking for about two weeks and never left the house anymore. What the shit?

We don't know what he did to her. We don't know what happened. But apparently it was weird. More more happened than she anticipated. I'm going to feel like I'm going to call whatever happened there a tragedy. Let's just say that. I'm not sure what it was, but that's a tragedy. If she's traumatized and not taught, that's what you call a tragedy.

Not just a happy knocking up. Two weeks. Two weeks. No talking. No talking. Wow. Two weeky. That's a lot.

That's too long. And they said that David was shaken up as well. And the whole thing was weird. His friends said they were all a little bit disturbed by his actions, like they didn't expect that from him. And it was kind of an unchristian thing to do literally one of his friends said quote he kind of lost all the friends he had nobody really knew who he was anymore he went to fuck a girl for two weeks now whatever went on with them that's i don't know but from his friend's point of view what

are they judging him for that yeah i've known friends who have done horrible things that i don't judge them for. Terrible. Not like criminal awful things to women or anything like that, but bad things where I'm like, you'd say, that's a bad thing you did, but that's not my problem. They didn't hurt anybody. It's a bad thing he did, not that I did. Yeah. It's odd for teenage boys to judge their friend because they went and fucked a girl. If you raped the girl

that'd be different then as a teenage boy you'd be like hey don't do that jesus any age you should that you should know that's not okay but uh yeah if he talks her into something terrible you know that's the thing who knows yeah brought brought it's a it's a hunting cabin he brought down like a moose head off the wall come on honey we're all this shit let's get down on the bear skin boy good lord so uh yeah cara's friends too said they were kind of a little freaked out by her seeing someone so much older than her. One of her friends told her that she thought things were getting out of hand with David. Another person said, quote, on her wall or whatever, or to a message to her. Obviously, you don't care enough that David may go to jail because statutory rape because you

know she's 14 uh and she said quote we are taking care of it we know what we are going to do i don't know what that means what are you gonna do we know what we are going to do and uh another time she said you don't know how much we feel about each other and how much we want to be with each other when somebody else said that he's going to end up in jail for dating her. That's what she said. So you don't know how we feel. It doesn't matter. I just pictured Karen in Goodfellas. Dad, you don't know how I feel.

Dad, don't involve him. The man hasn't been able to digest a decent meal in six weeks. Sorry. It doesn't matter how she feels. Nor he. There is laws in place. Our laws. His laws. to digest a decent meal in six weeks sorry it doesn't matter how she feels no nor he uh so there is laws in place our laws is lost lots of laws yeah a bunch of them you're not allowed no you're not allowed to feel by either the state or the church for this matter in this particular case tragedy so that you don't know how they feel about each other they want to be with each other and

she says we're taking care of it we know what we're going to do so they have a plan who knows it's all set out november 12 2005 uh for some reason uh david asked the webmaster of his skateboarding related blog to block the blog block other people from finding it so that nobody can find it by searching for either his name or cara's name he said can you block those two things out of like a search parameter i don't know why but that's what ended up happening that same day uh very same day november 12th cara tells her parents that she's going to have a sleepover at her girlfriend's house uh she arrives home uh at 5 30 in the morning David drops her off at home sneak you know sneaky sneaky down the street right she is climbing into her window yeah now this happens a lot they do this all the time and they have a system worked out where she gets in and gets settled and finds Caesar parents are

still sleeping and she texts him and tells him I got in good everything's cool undetected it's all good yeah and so yeah so we're that's that's what he's waiting for instead she pops in the window and there's her fucking mother standing there uh-oh yeah her mother's pissed where the fuck were you you said you were sleeping at your girlfriend's you're not at your girlfriend's you're sneaking in the goddamn window why would you sneak in the window from coming from your girlfriends a lot of the questions that a parent would ask. Yeah. She did not have an answer ready. It's 5.30 in the morning

and she was not prepared for this. She didn't have coffee yet. No, she's... She's doing one of those as a kid would do. Well, I was at the thing and the window was stuck and I bought the door

and forgot the key and oh shit, my leg is wet. Yeah, there's a lot of stuff going on. No, she's 14. That's not good to say. Let's not do that. So... Let's not. Let's not do that. Let's not. Let's not do that.

She's 14. I can't even. I can't. It's a tragedy, James. It's a fucking tragedy. So, yeah, she said that, yes, I was out. She said, it wasn't where I told you. You wouldn't have let me go where I wanted to go.

That's why I didn't tell you. So the mother's like, well, fucking obviously, I wouldn't have let you goddamn go where I wanted to go. That's why I didn't tell you. So the mother's like, well, fucking obviously I wouldn't have let you goddamn go where I wanted you to fucking go. So the parents are starting to come down on her and the whole thing is coming out in the open. And finally there, they, they asked her,

did you, were you out seeing that boy and all this type of shit? And she finally just said, yes, I fucking was. I was out seeing him. There you go. She's,

she's had, she's had that, that kid moment where you're like i'm in trouble anyway i don't care anymore and you start telling them everything you did because it's all going to get lumped into one punishment so let's get it all out in the open her hand down inside of mom's face it's like a mob informant like they sat somebody down and debriefed them tell us everything you've ever done because if we find out later then it's going to fuck up your whole deal so you have to sit down and tell them about all your murders and they're

just like fine i did this and i did that i did this it's like stand by me starts telling on himself yeah so yeah that's what ends up happening so uh she says that her parents are obviously a little bit freaked out even though they kind of knew that was going on here uh just as this argument's happening she gets text messages oh no so the parents are like who the fuck is that now it's six o'clock in the morning texting you obviously uh so uh uh anyway he remember this he yeah picture of his cock there not good so uh the father grabs the phone and uh reads it and uh so he says it's the david that's what we thought obviously uh and she said yes fine she tells them that she's they're in love and they're

going to get married um she's 14 no you're not you ain't getting married you're in ninth ninth grade or whatever the home equivalent of that is i don don't know. She might still be in sixth grade. Yeah, we don't fucking know. Who the hell knows? So obviously the parents have a problem with that. They start, you know, no, you're not. What the hell are you talking about? What's wrong with you?

And the daughter, Kara's like cursing at them. And the father's fucking like, oh my God. He's very like, I've never heard cursing in my household. He's freaking the fuck out because you're not allowed to curse. That's a tragedy. Absolutely. A curse is a tragedy.

She has the devil inside her. Well, she's got something. Yeah. And it swims. So at 6 a.m. She got a serpent in there for sure. So it's 6 a.m. This is all happening.

Okay. Millions of little serpents. Tons of them. This is a lot for fucking 6 a.m. This is all happening. Okay. Millions of little serpents. Tons of them. This is a lot. Yeah. For fucking 6 a.m. Yeah. To just be woken up to this shit.

Yeah. So the father gets on the phone and tells David to get his ass over to the house. I want to have a little talk with you. Okay. At 6 a.m. Oh, boy. So fucking David shows up. Yeah.

You were just here. Come on back. Come on back. And the kid came back? He came back. Oh, boy. I'd have been like, nah, we'll talk about it tomorrow. I think we You were just here. Come on back. Come on. The kid came back. He came back. Oh, boy. I'd have been like, nah, we'll talk about it tomorrow. I think we're good right now.

I'm cool. I'm going to let you calm down. You know what? There's a lot going on. The Eagles game's on in like a few hours. I mean, I got a lot of party prep to do. I got a tailgate. I really got this youth pastor meeting.

I really don't have time for it right now. I mentioned we're cleaning the barn. We're for a meeting. You could use some funding. If you want to help out with that, great. Just drop it off, though, because I can't make it right now. So David comes over. And now there is contradictory claims here of that when he came over, he had some sort of package in his hand that the father told him to leave outside.

And if that's true or not we're not sure but he whatever if he did have something in his hand he left it on the porch and then went inside some sort of package uh we're not sure so that's that's a we don't know about yet but i think it might be true as we'll find out later it'll make sense later on but uh anyway they get david and david comes to the front door, and Michael invites him in, and this kid, for some reason, goes inside. They'd be like, let's do it outside. Let's talk on the porch. You like to...

I get this package and stuff. You're friends with your neighbors, right? Let's talk on the porch. What do you say? Because you don't want... They could hear and see anything. You know, any events are open for everybody. Just where everybody can see and hear.

Take pictures, videotape it. You know what I mean? Just right out in the open. Tell you what what let's go to the mall you like the mall let's go to the food cart and talk about this yeah right in the food let's just sit right down right at the hatties pretzels right down we'll have a slice of sabaro and we'll fucking get down to business let's do this jesus chick-fil-a samples and it's on so uh how do you feel about cinnabon let's do it so they sit him down and uh they have a michael has about a 45 minute lecture with old david here that's that's a long 45 minutes that's a lot of don't fuck my daughter yeah that's 45 minutes of

get your dick away from my daughter's a lot that's a whole lot like i feel like he was like because michael wasn't yelling or screaming i feel like he was like because michael wasn't yelling or screaming i said too he was speaking to him logically and he was saying you know this is wrong and jesus and right you know the psalms and pay for a kid tragedy and all that type of shit circuit city's gonna go under any day now you know i was out of my child uh yeah uh eventually though at the end of the whole thing he forbids david from ever seeing carrie again you are never gonna see my fucking daughter again yeah get the fuck out of my house without the cursing obviously he said it you know aw shucks get the fudge get the fudge on out of here

pally so he walks david over to the door yeah he says you're gonna take a fucking hike i never want to see you around my goddamn house again yeah so uh uh and he turns around michael turns around to leave and david's gonna walk out the door as david's walking out the door he changes his mind quick reaches into his pants pulls out a glock and shoots old michael in the back of the head wow back of the head single bullet in the back of the head uh done that's that but that was fast that's no man just decided you know what no you know you're not gonna get to be with her probably not like what are you doing that ain't the way it happens no it's not uh this uh cara's older sister 15 year old sister is also there yeah and uh she

is uh caitlin and she sees this whole thing she runs and hides in the bathroom after she sees this god it happened right in front of her it's fucking sunday morning in the family and then the household it's 6 a.m there's a lot yeah it's quite it's there's quite a lot of action in the house so all the kids are up everything like that uh yeah she runs in the bathroom uh so after that he walks over and sees Kathy, the mother. She's sitting in a chair by the sofa and he goes with a blanket over her legs. He goes over and pops a shot into her, too, and kills her as well. She didn't hear it.

She heard it. And she was just starting to. It literally was one shot. And then he turned into the next room. She's right there. So she was just like, what the fuck? Trying to start to rise. And he put her right back down into the chair.

One shot there. That's the last thing that Caitlin heard that she saw the father get shot, but then ran into the bathroom and heard the second shot as she was running away there. Then while she's in the bathroom, I'm sure scared shitless that he's going to come for her now. Caitlin, all he hears, all she hears is david walking through the house calling cara's name he's just walking through the house calling for cara and she's not answering so he can't find her so he walks outside calmly walks outside gets in his car

and pulls out of the driveway and starts to drive away as he does he sees cara running behind him waving him down wait wait he stops she hops in the car they fucking take off oh boy this shit's gotten crazy uh he's in his parents 1998 red volkswagen jetta yeah at this point they're in there uh she uh got in there uh she later says we wanted to get as far away from as possible and get married and start a new life that's not how it works what are you doing how far are you gonna go pakistan yeah fucking or mars i just i didn't mean to put adnan in it again but that's the far it's a far place i can think of i fucking siberia where are you going also jupiter mars he's ruined your little sister forever i would say and your brother oh there's a nine-year-old brother by the way he's in the house too he's in the house he's the one who runs over to the

neighbor's house to call 9-1-1 well after all this happens here uh he sneaks out the back door and runs and calls 9-1-1 uh so now there's both parents are dead yeah uh and now there's a lot of orphans on our hands here six uh six well two of them are like 22 and 25, so they're fine. But I mean, they're sad. I'm sure their fucking parents are dead. But still. Yeah. So she jumps in the car.

They take off. And that's that. They're on the road. She he was shot in the head. Michael Borden, the the the medical examiner said it was a distant gunshot wound, meaning that had been fired from a distance of three to four feet or greater. So he let him take a couple steps away, thought about it, and popped the shot in the back of his head. It said no powder wounds, basically.

So that's how they knew. They said it was pretty much an immediate death right into his brain stem, the base of his skull. Never saw it, never heard it, just one walking and then he was dead in two seconds so uh uh you know that's a if you gotta go that's that's the best it's pretty good if i had to die tomorrow and you asked me what my choice was i'd be like that sounds pretty decent fast that sounds fast if you could hit that spot that sounds good but this guy didn't deserve to die for christ's sake obviously bullet passed through the brain and exited his forehead wow so through the brain stem out through the forehead so just tore him apart from the brain and exited his forehead wow uh so through the brain

stem out through the forehead so just tore him apart from the brain stem out through the brain and ended up being recovered from a door frame wow yeah out bow uh uh yeah they also uh uh they said that he was you know otherwise a healthy 50 year old guy yeah uh catherine uh catherine was shot in the right side of the head and uh after the bullet passed through her right hand she had her hand up one not wanting to be shot it's a good shot kid's a hunter that's the thing oh yeah he hunts like crazy his family's super into hunting that's what they do we got a caliber on this weapon yes i'll we'll talk about that in a minute this sounds like a big handgun it is it is we'll get to it here uh we'll get to all that here so uh yeah

they sound that the trajectory path was uh you know, from where they thought by the front door. Bullet was removed from her frontal lobe. Actually, they figured out where the shooter was standing from there. The medical examiner said, quote, the bottom line, this kid was a good shot. That's what he said. He shot him exactly where he wanted to. He said to shoot both people in the head from some distance in a matter of seconds is very difficult to do cops almost always missing a shootout and this kid didn't miss twice right it's true the training you have

to have for that to do that it's like good combat training and think about how much how often cops are trained oh yeah not as yeah and and this kid is outgunning them yeah yeah my that's incredible buddy of mine was in the air force was telling me certain handgun training they do, they have people running toward you. And they said it's fucking amazing how while a person's moving, you think you're shooting them and you're not. Because you're hitting nothing. It's fucking crazy. So you really have to have some training in this type of shit.

And when you fire a lot fast, like shooting rapidly. You have to go pop and then pop right fast fast and can't do it bang and bang in two spots yeah holding your hand still and firing rapidly it's hard enough to hit a target and to fire hit turn especially adrenaline going think about this forget it he's been yelled at by this guy now he's gonna murder his fucking girlfriend's parents this isn't a calm situation this isn't a video game where you're like all right i'll hit that guy and that guy this is like okay the magazine said i have to do it this way whole life's gonna change now yeah it's way yeah the instruction said this now they they they notify his brother steven michael's brother steven who's the oldest brother in the family here

and uh he's down in mississippi still and uh yeah they get up they get a message when they get home they were out of town and they get home and obviously the whole family is oh you know the town's a mess the whole town the whole family oh the town is freaked out by this this is not what happens here uh uh they just uh and then later on in the day because they don't know where they are now they just fucking kids are gone so the police are like okay uh parents are dead daughters missing right what's going on that's all they know when they show up parents are dead daughters missing then they hear okay the boyfriend shot them right they think too they're like did he kidnap cara right is she against her will is she did she go on on purpose is she involved in this they don't know what the fuck's going on they just

know dead people are here uh one of her friends one of cara's friends kayla jeffries ends up showing up at the little tits borough police department needed a humor break there with a cell phone she found on the road that was Kara's cell phone she found it on a road that was found on the side of the road that led

to the highway it led to the interstate and so they called the person that called her number earlier in the day to see where she could find her because she heard about all this and no one had answered. It's it's fucking weird. So then she saw her number on there. And David Ludwig's phone is also ends up being turned in later on. So he tossed his.

They tossed their phones. Yeah, they tossed their fucking phones. So he tossed his two. They tossed their phones. Yeah, they tossed their fucking phones. Now, the location of where the phones were found, though, was helpful in determining which direction they went. Yeah. They knew they were going this direction.

Okay, that's helpful. So then they ended up getting, they said they need the FBI. So they try to get the FBI in for assistance. They're trying to do kind of an APB on this whole thing here. They also, they were talking, because they were saying, she's kidnapped's she could be headed for another state that's interstate kidnapping right now the fbi is involved uh so where did they go uh well let's see here after an amber alert was put out yeah if you have a child if you don't know what an amber alert is by the way in the in the u.s they have an amber alert when there's a missing child yeah that's taken by somebody that they

think is like actively taken they put out what's called an amber alert which is like they put out like signs on all the highways and they put out like alerts to people's phones and everybody's phone gets a text they announce it on the radio and all that that there's a missing kid and any details so everyone could be on the lookout news channel in the country yeah yeah and they actually find a lot

of kids that way it's working they actually do it works better than not doing anything right same after a little girl named amber who they didn't have it yet and she disappeared yeah amber hagerman who's a nine-year-old girl in texas who was abducted raped and murdered by a known child predator right in 1996 and nobody knew where she was because nobody knew she was missing because they had they had no alert yet right and then they got one now uh so uh yeah they didn't know what to do here uh exactly they were They were thinking that possibly that Kara was either in on this or she might be at risk for harm. Maybe he kidnapped her and he's going to hold her hostage.

They have no idea what they're going to step into. The chief of police there said, quote, we believe that Kara was taken against her will. And until I hear otherwise, Kara is a victim. And our main priority is to get her back here with her family. So that's what they're thinking now. Now they're saying, you know, if she was if she was in on it, that's the craziest goddamn thing in the fucking world. You know, that's like that's grim, Kara. Yeah, that's that's grim, Kara.

No shit. Never mind, Karen. Step aside, Karen. That's grim cara no shit never mind karen step aside karen that's grim cara uh they said that uh the coroner said that quote it's completely insane completely insane this isn't romeo and juliet this is far worse than that so i would agree with that yeah romeo and juliet killed themselves they didn't do this and then run away that's what i mean this is a great and this is what i was saying with like adnan like this like, like that case could have gone, you know, I'm not saying that Adnan did that because I have no idea what he did or didn't do.

But like, it's like it could have very easily been a case like that where of the boy would have killed her parents or she would have killed this one or they would have killed each other, killed one of one of them would have killed the other one or it could go either way. Or she's dead. And now he goes off and kills himself. Yeah. About anything.

Or somebody else killed her and then he got blamed for it and he didn't do it that happens you know what i mean who the fuck knows that's i'm pretty sure happened well at least once yeah so uh it's happened to a lot of people a lot of people so uh yeah so there's uh uh there's obviously an alert police all across pennsylvania and uh and indiana were investigating any reported sightings of any red Volkswagen Jetta they could fucking find. Finally, they receive a report on Monday morning, 24 hours later, of a vehicle matching the description at a truck stop near Fort Wayne, Indiana. Oh, okay.

Yeah. I was going to say Florida. No, no, no. They went the wrong way. No, no. They went to Indiana that way. They went west. State troopers go there, but the car was gone.

Then they end up finding the car. They spot it on I-70 near Belleville, Indiana. So Ludwig, David, sees cops behind him and gets off the interstate and leads them on a five-mile chase with Kara in the front seat. Five-mile chase. Speeds of 95 miles an hour. Good Lord. Zipping all through shit.

And a fucking 98 Jetta is not designed to go 90 miles an hour lord zipping all through shit and a 2000 or a fucking 98 jetta is not designed to go 90 miles an hour i'll tell you that much right now the piece of shit yeah so uh uh this is on two lane roads too we're talking this isn't a wide road this is two lane roads another car's coming the other direction when you go around a corner you take it wide it's head-on corner uh fucking dangerous not a good place to do this. They said that the state troopers said that he was, quote, very reckless and very dangerous at that point. Finally, they had a blockade with two cop cars, you know, head to head that they do. So he ended up, David ended up going off the road into a ditch and hitting a tree. Yeah, that's what's going to happen.

This is how these end. You don't go off the road. You never do that's how that's how these end unless you got a truck unless you have like a souped up jeep stay on the road with a 98 jetta it's not meant to fucking go mud bogging you idiot unless that's a lifted jetta no it's not big wheels and tires with a v8 under the hood ridiculous thing with a jetta on the road jetta body stuck on top of it don't do that unless it's not a jetta basically so uh they hit a tree and david crawls out of the car at that point and as he crawls out of the car obviously police are rushing toward him and as they're rushing toward him cara jumps out of the car screaming don't hurt him don't hurt him oh my god cara so out of the car screaming, don't hurt him. Don't hurt him. Oh, my God, Kara.

So not a dummy. Yeah. Don't hurt him. Don't hurt him. He pretty much says right away. Yeah, I did it. Here's the murder weapon. Here's the gun I used to shoot him.

Everything's under the seat. Stuff's in here. I got this, that and this. Right. He gives the whole thing away. His hair from being long and curly, not long, but like, you know, a little above his shoulders and curly is now about an inch long. Oh oh like he shaved his head like he put a china no he put a put a number four on and just fucking zipped it get rid of this shit get rid of that so i have my my bright red

car and 14 year old girlfriend i don't stand out like a sore thumb or anything but now my hair's different so they'll never find me they'll never find me safe safe and he hung on they got rid of phones hung on to the murder weapon hung on to that told him it's right under the seat uh uh yep he uh he gets arrested obviously he is uh he confesses to the murders right away right away uh tells police where the cop where the the uh the guns are they recover a uh they recover a 40 caliber smith and wesson glock yeah and that's the murder weapon smith and wesson 40 cal yeah so uh why are they saying that i was gonna say that's not a weapon that's what those are two two brands of a gun yeah those aren't the same thing right i saw glock everywhere else and somebody put smith and

wesson glock in this article and they're fucking idiot it's a it's a glock because i saw a glock everywhere and i've seen that only once. And a.40 Cal. .40 Cal, though. That's a good one. Yeah, that's a good shot here. It's a big gun. So this is under the driver's seat of the car.

Also found, they found media reports about the whole thing from that day. Clothing, maps, a Colt.45 pistol, a Ruger.er 45 pistol and a ruger mini 14 rifle why has he got that yes all that in the car my god cara told them she had not been kidnapped she went along willingly with david uh uh they they also find uh surveillance along the way after that from stores and shit like that that show that she wasn't didn't look like a kidnap victim she was walking voluntarily holding his hand and you know walking over to him and hugging him and shit like that so it didn't seem like she was too uh against her will uh they also find uh wrapped in a towel on the porch where he left it yeah they find uh another handgun from the ludwig family gun collection at the Borden home.

So he left that gun there. He forgot the one that the guy told him to put down. He brought another one. The gun he had wrapped up in a towel. That's what he had at the door. And the father told him, leave whatever you got. Leave that there. I want to talk to you.

He didn't know he had a gun in his hand wrapped in a fucking towel. But David forgot about it when he left and just left it there. Well, I mean, he was kind of in a rush. He was murdered too. Yeah, you know, not really a master criminal. Not used to this shit uh so uh they said that they said that uh carol be considered a victim rather than a willing participant and and quote until i hear otherwise that's what the chief of police says she's at minimum an accessory after the fact what the fuck yeah she tried to cover it

up uh police what she is 14 after capture, Kara is returned to her family. They're calling her a victim. No. Completely. 100%. She's not under arrest. They're saying they're not closing the door on the possibility that she may have had a role in some of the events that unfolded.

But since she's 14 years old, they're not really looking at that. There's also they're more concerned about statutory rape charges for David and all that sort of thing here. The chief of police said about Kara quote cara's upset she's crying she's a 14 year old child and we seem to forget that she's devastated no we don't yeah no we don't at all but still if she was a i don't know i feel like if she was a 14 year old boy her ass would be in jail oh yeah she'd be in a little bit of trouble i I'm just saying. I feel like if she's a boy, she's in jail. That's all I'm saying. So, yeah, they talk about that David seemed very quiet and to be in a state of shock when he was with the police. You know, all of this shit.

He faces his preliminary charges are criminal recklessness and resisting law enforcement in Indiana. And then also, you know, homicide and kidnapping and straight up murder weapons possessions and all sorts of shit like that the town is fucked up over this oh yeah these religious people did not expect this shit whatsoever uh one person here a woman in town said quote i never dreamt i'd see this come out of families like that it's just devastating uh she said she knew both families very well and thought it was horrible. She was also a homeschooler and her kids were in there and all that. Another person said, what makes this so difficult to understand is that these children were somewhat sheltered from drugs and yet and all of that.

And yet they got into this. What? If they get into that, what drugs cause sex? No, horniness causes sex. Drugs cause murder. No, no. Teenage rebellion and refusing to listen to the law. Yeah, this is normal shit that had an abnormal outcome completely.

This has nothing to do... And then they said, quote, it will make us all take a second look. We're just assuming that we're homeschooling our kids and everything's okay. And now this, they're not all okay. He was probably on that heroin. I'm sure he was sticking needles in his arms there had to be it's the only way uh obviously the parents are freaked out uh they're you know they're wondering if they you know they they're wondering if they know what their kids are doing now they're like i thought i knew what my kids were doing maybe i

don't know what my kids are doing uh one lady said quote it's so frightening you monitor them you stay observant you lead by example but what if it's not frightening. You monitor them. You stay observant. You lead by example. But what if it's not enough? I guess you just never know. And that's the scary part. Yeah, that's kids. That's being a parent. That's being a parent.

All you can do is say, this is what I think you should do. Try to guide them and then go, I hope that shit works. You know that football game that was a piece of shit that they had in like the 70s? And you'd see it. It's like this big. It's like a football field. It's metal and it vibrates. And you'd see it's like a football field, and it's metal, and it vibrates. And you turn the little guys on.

You can set them up however you want. They're these little plastic guys, and then you turn it on, and the point is that the field vibrates, and then the guys are supposed to go in the direction that you put them in, but they don't. They just vibrate around wherever they are

because you have no control over it. It's not you. You can set them up, and you can make that play as perfect as you want, but then when you turn the fucking vibrate on, who knows? That's what kids are. Hopefully the universe vibrates into success. That's what kids are.

You have no fucking idea which way they're going to vibrate. That's why it's a tragedy. Yeah, that's why it's a tragedy. You see five kids in a family. Three kids are great. One kid's mediocre. One kid's in prison. You never know.

Who the fuck knows? So if you've got six kids and they're all successful, fucking don't congratulate you. Congratulate the universe. You're fucking lucky. You've got a vibrator. The vibrations have taken you to the right place. We just took God and everything else, everything out of it and just said, it's the vibration. I don't know.

Fuck it. So one of David's friends said, quote david was slipping in the last couple of months drawing back from everyone and pulling on putting on a facade nobody really knew the real david anymore so now they're all acting like they knew who he was and before that they all thought he was a great guy uh they did say that uh this one friend said that he had a particularly startling conversation uh about two days before the murders with dav. David said, he said about David, quote, he had been making comments, oh, I could kill someone and get away with it, disappear, and nobody would find me. That's what he said like two days before.

And he's wrong. He's wrong. He's wrong. Who hasn't said that? That's what I mean. I could do that shit. Blah, blah, blah. Yeah.

But then two days later to actually do it, that's different. I mean, if you're at church and you're talking about something in the Bible and then he just turns to you and goes, you know, I could probably kill somebody and get away with it. I think I could do it. That might be a cause for pause. If you were sitting around and it came up in a different conversation, you'd be like, I think I could get away with it. Like, people fuck around like that.

So David is extradited from Indiana back to Pennsylvania. He doesn't fight those efforts. He just goes right back. He's held without bail, obviously. Not going to let this guy out at all. Jesus Christ, man. They wrote here, quote, We've been advised by Mr. Ludwig

that the behavior, this is what the police said, that the behavior of Cara and himself while on the run will serve to negate the charge of kidnapping and will be directly relevant to the issue of the involvement of the parties in the charges of homicide in other words they said uh she uh he's they dropped the kidnapping charge they said she went voluntarily no kidnapping but they also said

quote uh this is what her lawyer said uh caris the family lawyer quote if the cops thought she had anything to do with this she wouldn't be at home watching movies. She would be held in detention. They clear her of all. Of everything? Are they out of their fucking minds? Everyone feels bad for her. She skipped over her father's corpse to get in the car. Nope.

Victim. Unbelievable. Victim. Just a victim. Unbelievable. I mean, it's hard to put it on a 14-year-old girl, but you also go, Jesus, that doesn't make you not like a guy anymore? Your dad's blood is on your shoe. Yeah, dude. to step over brain matter how do you still love that man yeah and you left your sister and your nine-year-old i'm sorry that's just not there's too much there's

too many that's a lot that's a lot yeah that's a lot i could see if it led up to that point and then when it happened she was like oh my god this is bad but the chase after the car she he was driving down the street she didn't have to she didn't yeah it was weird uh so uh yeah uh her attorney robert briar our buyer said that uh he did not expect any charges to be filed against her she's a young girl who has seen her parents murdered and should not be held to blame he said quote i'm not going to argue the uh i'm not going to argue with the prosecutor she's still a victim we're on the same side so they're at the prosecutor everybody says it's just easier to just say that she's a victim wow it's just easier for everybody than to prosecute a 14 year old girl along with this uh and ludwig's own statement quote i shot mom as she was sitting in a chair it was an intentional murder i intended to shoot them and

i did that's what they said and they said did you take a long time to aim because they're just asking them they want him to go through it. They want to get every fact out. And he says, quote, I did not aim. I have a lot of shooting experience and I usually hit what I shoot at. He just fucking pop pop. He just did a quick like a reflex. Like he's a fucking, you know, insanity. That's like, you know, Mel Gibson and lethal weapon.

He just whips his whips his fucking 45 out of his belt. Not even a holster. His belt pops holes in people's foreheads from a distance. and he just whips his fucking 45 out of his belt. Not even a holster, just his belt and pops holes in people's foreheads from a distance. Ridiculous, man. He's got the word Glock imprinted on his fucking pelvis because he doesn't even have a holster at all. Just in his back there.

So they search David's shit. In his laptop, they find images of Kara in, quote, various stages of undress. Yeah, that's kiddie porn. That's bad. They also find an even more something worse, an 18-minute video. No. Not of that, not of sex, no sex, that they got from the laptop.

In it, it's David and his friend, a guy named Samuel Lahr, who are both armed with rifles and dressed in all black. And they said they're conducting what they call a, quote, night patrol in which they stand outside of a house and discuss killing the family members inside the house. Good Lord. That's what they do. They dress in black, stand outside someone's house with weapons, and discuss killing everybody and then go home.

Just to show that they can. It's just like, look at the power we have. You're being silly. We're standing outside. I have rifle. We're all dressed in black. We go in there and kill everybody. Let's home like these kids need such a fun night i was these kids need weed yeah i'm sorry i was smoking weed that's what i had to do i was like i don't

have time for all that shit because i'm gonna go roll a blunt and hot box it over there in that apartment complex parking lot he's putting off uh cleaning the barn to go do this to do this shit yeah this is weird the video also showed ludwig and his friend talking about quote ludwig's intimate relationship with cara borden before deciding to go on night night patrol here they also discussed having sex with her other sister uh with cara's sister with cara and her sister together uh two underage girls. A foursome. But he said that the sex would constitute statutory rape and he might have to kill someone if they ever found out about it.

The nine-year-old? I don't understand. No, no, no. There's a discrepancy whether her sister is 15 or 13. She's 14. We don't know whether her sister's a year older or a year younger.

He's saying in this that she's a year younger, so I'm going to go with that. But the media reported a year older, a bunch of them. It's in this that she's a year younger so i'm gonna go with that but the media reported a year older a bunch of them it's a conflicting thing i'm gonna say she's 13 he's saying 14 is one thing with 13 jesus that's a bridge too far sorry so from the cop from the parents home the ludwig home they they uh find a total of 54 guns which is too many guns yeah that's a lot of guns i know people you like your guns whatever you don't need 54 i'll tell you right now yeah you got 54 that's too many let's get 54 people living in the house 54 people fine but they got five people that's 10 guns a

person that's a lot you don't have that many arms or legs like one gun one trigger per finger i don't know if that's no good uh so uh yeah they said uh the they recovered they also ended up finding a bunker in their basement uh they went in they had to force open the locked door to the hobby room uh that's where the gun collection was the 54 guns then they found a door that led downstairs to a sub-level basement that had a 12 by 12 cement block bunker with alternate light sources, food rations, first aid kits. And they had a fucking they have a survival bunker under here. They're like weird survivalists like I'm going to hide in my basement but not tell any of

my friends about it because they'll come for my food bunker. Weird. They're not going to get in because I have 54 fucking guns. Yeah. Unless they're the SWAT team. Right. The fucking they'll take your goddamn door down at that point that's why they have guns they're literally hunkering down waiting for society to end yeah so they can have their arsenal and their bunker

and they'll be fine shoot every all their neighbors as they come cots food sandbags uh they they called it a survivalist apocalyptic mentality wow this. This whole thing. They all have that? The Ludwig? The Ludwig house has this. Yeah. It's a big giant 12 by 12. Their game room is 8 by 10. Their bunker is 12 by 12.

Put it that way. More important than the place to actually hang out while the world is going on. They're more concerned with what's going to happen afterwards. I will take care of me and mine. Yeah, dude. This is fucking crazy. So, yeah. happen afterwards i will take care of me and mine yeah dude this is this is fucking crazy so uh yeah more people here uh they they they appoint a uh court guardian as a as a guardian for cara uh family friends said that they're the kids are all going to be cared for by a relative i assume

maybe one of the older brothers or an aunt or an uncle or something uh they said that uh uh they said the older brother is standing behind cara and does not believe that she had anything to do with the murders. He says, quote, people who know her know that that's just not possible. They said that, you know, not at all. They're both from nice families. So what can you say? Sometimes people just go haywire. But not Kara.

She's fine. Not her. At the funeral. She's at the funeral. Yeah. You know, going around. 400 people at the funeral. Wow.

A big funeral. She said she went around. She was they called her composed and even smiling. She was hugging her friends and family and all that type of thing. Her friend said she could be angry in a couple of weeks. But for now, I think she's avoiding it. She also had something to do with it. So, you know, I don't know.

So 2006 here before that, he's even a trial. He receives his high school diploma in school and, uh, in jail. Wow. Good for you. Uh, gets that, uh, and his parents go there to, that's something you're going to, our kid was going to graduate and we were taking him to see colleges, but now we're going to the jail so he can get a certificate. This is going to be an honorable day.

Did you get the cat? You have the camera. We really want to document this for the photo album. Jesus Christ. Wow. Mom brought it to document this for the photo album. Jesus Christ. Wow. Mom brought it to him because she's his principal. Yeah, that's how I got to bring this to you. His lawyer said about him, quote, he is not inherently evil.

He is not inherently bad. David Ludwig is just a very troubled young man. That's one way of putting it. The man shot a man in the back of the fucking head because he wouldn't let him fuck his 14 year old daughter that's an evil dude and then shot a woman who was just sitting there not like sitting there with a hand in front of her face in a defensive position he shot a woman in the fucking face that's disturbing he's inherently evil he's an inherently bad motherfucker uh the state agrees and they're going to seek the death penalty for it so So they agree. We think he's kind of a dick, actually. And we're going to tell you what, this is how much of a dick we think he is.

So his attorney is concerned about the effects of what the his attorney said that he's that David. All he's concerned about is the effect of the that the trial is going to have on the community, the family and the churches. And it's going to hurt his church. It's going to make them all look like weirdos. And, you know, he doesn't like that. His lawyer also said that David's been tutoring other prison inmates. He's been tutoring them, and he's a pretty blonde kid. I'm sure he's been tutoring a lot.

He's 18. What is he tutoring? I don't know what the fuck he's doing. He's a no shit. He's going around telling everybody about Jesus, and they're like, oh, Jesus. Can we stab the Jesus guy? Is that bad karma? I guess not. Fuck it. Jesus, it's enough of the jesus enough uh they then the lawyer has the balls to say quote he retains the potential to do to do much good in an institutional setting

so don't give him the death penalty well david is apparently afraid of the death penalty and does not want any fucking part of it because he takes a plea yeah he does no part of trial and he also says it's because he doesn't want to put the family and the community and the church through this. And Kara. And Kara, obviously. He pleads guilty to two counts of first degree murder. This is to avoid the death penalty, obviously. Also pleads guilty to charges of reckless endangerment, statutory sexual assault, and carrying a firearm without a license.

These are all no kidnapping if you notice that is not in there uh sentencing comes around because this is when they plea then the sentencing comes right away from the judge because there's no jury obviously uh sentencing the judge judge david ashworth has something to say to him though this is good stuff he says and i quote by your useless and selfish, you destroyed and permanently altered the lives of countless people. You, sir, may fuck off life to consecutive life terms without the possibility of parole, plus an additional nine and a half to 19 years on top of that for the firearm without a license and the sexual assault. Stack those on top of it. Good.

Those are good. That's not concurrent. Those are, that's not concurrent. You got nothing, sir. You got shit. So two consecutive life terms, no parole. Okay. As an 18-year-old kid, 19 at this point. It's all over. That's fucked.

Yeah, that's a lot of time in the can there. He appeals this, obviously. He can. He appeals, but he pled. So his appeals are real limited. limited it's real limited what you can appeal on when you plea uh you can basically say your counsel didn't tell you what you were pleading to and if a law has changed from the time you pled to now you can put that in otherwise you got that's all you got who gots who gots exactly yeah you pled motherfucker tough shit so uh he appeals uh he's trying to appeal the

sentences first he points to ineffective assistance of counsel for the previous lawyer because it's just that you have to right there's nothing else you can say and then he's trying to void his convictions in life terms uh basically he's trying to expand the scope of a 2012 u.s supreme court ruling that made it unconstitutional to impose a mandatory life prison term for a murderer who is under 18 years old who is younger than 18 he was 18 right he's trying to expand that to 18 and younger that's what he's trying to do literally trying to say that's what they meant in the Supreme Court. 18 and under. It's weird.

Supreme Court's usually real specific about what they mean. Like they have a long thing and they each write a big thing about it. They're real specific. The other part is that every law, if it states an age, it's usually there and over. Like a fishing license? Anybody 10 and over has to have a license. Nine and under, no license. 18 and over?

Yeah. Fuck you. Yeah. Under 18? Yeah. You're fine. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, apparently a bunch of people were trying to appeal this in federal court because

I guess there was a federal ruling in another case, a Miller versus Alabama, that extended it to murderers who were in their 20s when they killed. And but all these keep getting shot down by the Supreme Court because it's not the fucking law. They said that very specifically under 18. So, yeah, they said that Ludwig's argument is that mandatory life sentences shouldn't be imposed on murderers as old as 24. It should be 25 and older. You get life without the possibility. Like 42 under under 25.

You shouldn't get it. He's saying there now he says quite. This is what the judge says, by the way. This is pretty impressive. Quote, perhaps the United States, United States Supreme Court may in the future determine that mandatory life imprisonment sentences for adults under 25 violate the U.S. Constitution based on ever-evolving standards of decency. But that day has not come yet. Fuck off back to jail with you, Curly. That day's not here yet.

That day ain't today, Chief. So back to your cell with you for about another fucking 60, 70 years. Enjoy, asshole. Enjoy your ramen. That's it. So he's's uh he's in jail still yeah nothing he can do about it nothing for her nothing for her she's fine that's it that's it for scara oh my god cara went and she was sad at the funeral and then went with some she was at the funeral she was smiling she's uh 29 30 years old now oh my god she's uh who knows probably put this all

behind her i don't know i cannot believe this i don't know i mean either she is completely mentally scarred and fucked over this or she was like an evil person that got away we don't know there's no way of knowing what her what her level of knowing is in terms of legality it seems like they really dropped the fucking ball yeah that's It seems like she should have got some punishment for that. There should have been something, I feel like. How about you come out of the room, he's 14. He's flying down the road. Grab the fucking phone.

Yeah. In every other case, they really, really held the fact that she was 14 up like she was seven. Whereas if they wanted to make it, it's because if they can turn a teenage kid either way if they want to act like they're young then you can be like they're like a they're just a delicate child and but if they killed a person and you want to act like they're a monster you can say at 14 they should get the death penalty because they had the they're wherewithal to pull the trigger they know so it's like people go either way on that shit and with that they just went like she's a poor girl she's like she's seven he manipulated her and had sex with her and all that shit i don't know what it was i feel like i don't know if it was the i'm sure that the community not wanting

a lot of this shit to come out was part of it i don't even know man i don't know how much that's why this i thought was a good small town murder because i feel like the town has a lot to do with this the county the town i feel like the fact that oh everybody knows each other and it's all a big kind of this this community and they all have these big groups that can put pressure on on people that are you know run for public office like prosecutors somebody knows something about somebody's force dude it's it's what i mean like who the fuck knows what's crazy i feel like it's a big city if this happens in brooklyn she's going to jail yeah like sorry for sure and if this happens why didn't you call the cops if this happens on the west side of phoenix that girl's in jail her pictures on the news and they're like well she's going to fucking jail now and you know as an

accomplice to her fucking 18 year old boyfriend and they'll go oh i'm sure she got you know drug into it by her 18 year old boyfriend she'll get five ten years she could have called the cops yeah they'll put her accessory after the fact or some shit like that and she even even fucking uh just a a a suspended sentence even though they'll put something on her to have something on a record to know the dude had guns there at his disposal in the vehicle it's just so weird because he he was in his car he left and pops had him come right back you know yeah yeah so she he didn't go home and get guns right that's the thing he we don't think he could have gotten he might have had him in the car or that's what i mean we don't know or he he

was home and he could just he came back real fast we don't fucking know what we do know is two people died and uh one person was held responsible and the whole thing's a goddamn mess. Well, if you like that story, crazy shit, please get on Apple Podcasts, iTunes, whatever the hell it is. The purple icon. Give us five stars. It really helps drive us up the charts. I'm telling you right now.

So if you want to do anything for the show, that's simple, easy and free. Give us five stars. Like we say, it doesn't matter what you're saying. It's not for our ego. a little tits say whatever you want yeah but don't leave out the l so they'll actually put it on there uh yeah put pennsylvania also so that's clear uh please do that though that really really does help us out and really if you listen on any other platform you don't have access to itunes rate and review on whatever platform you're listening to because if you can do it do it it helps us out a lot otherwise head over to shut up and give me murder.com

for all of your merchandising needs leggings and skateboards now up by all sorts of t-shirts and also you what you're going to see on there very soon is an announcement of a whole slew of live shows till the end of the year and uh some of these live shows tend to sell out a little faster than others depending on the city and some venues are smaller and some of the year. And some of these live shows tend to sell out a little faster than others, depending on the city. And some of the venues are smaller. And some of the venues are smaller, so that's the thing. And we're going to places we've never been before.

We're going to a lot of places we have been also. We're going to go to a lot of the ones. You're in Atlanta, you're in Portland. We'll find all you guys. Don't worry. We'll be in Chicago. But we're also hitting up St. Louis and Milwaukee and Des Moines and Pittsburgh and Tampa and places like that.

Salt Lake, places we've never been before. So that's going to be a lot of fun. And like Nashville, this last live show, we put the tickets on sale on a Friday. We didn't. The venue put them on sale on a Friday, which was the day after this show. So we couldn't announce it on the show. We announced it on social media. And by the time we got to announce it on the show on Thursday, the tickets were just about sold out and they were gone by the end of thursday so if

anyone listened to that next show a day late and they wanted tickets they couldn't get them they never even knew they existed and they were already sold out right so please follow us on social media we really don't bother you with a bunch of shit we don't put ads up we retweet if somebody does the shut up and give me murder challenge which is the people's hashtag that when they yell shut up and give me murder and video themselves doing it and post it to our social media. We retweet those because they're hilarious and shit like that. But otherwise, we don't bother you with a bunch of stuff. We post episodes. So follow us.

It's at Murder Small on Twitter, at Small Town Pod on Facebook, and at Small Town Murder on Instagram. So check all of those and find us in all those different places. And also, God, if you want to be an even bigger hero to the show, these people truly are. They're heroes. They keep the show viable and they're there.

God damn it. They're our favorite people in the world. If you want to save my life, you've saved our lives multiple times. God saved his life in Dallas. They're stuck there. You can be one of those people, one of our producers. You can donate to the show by going to patreon.com slash crime in sports or heading over to PayPal.

And you can use our email address, which is crime in sports at gmail.com. And you can find both those links right from shut up and give me murder.com. And on top of that, too. Yeah, just do that also you can use our email address there if you want to send us an email sure that's a that's that so with all that said i think it's time jimmy let's this is this is the fair favorite part of the week let's do the shout outs tell me all the people who have been so wonderful to us and would never ever shoot their girlfriend's father in the back of the head this week. Hit me with them now, Jimmy. This week's executive

producers are Desiree and Dahlia Howard. That's Gary's wife and daughter. They have the same birthday. How fucking bizarre is that? The wife and daughter? Yeah. That's super weird. I don't think I've ever heard of that. Sarah, my wife and her sister have the same birthday. Your wife and your sister? No,

my wife and her sister have the same birthday, but they're not twins. All that means is that her dad's birthday is nine months before. Yeah, well, not really. But still, yeah, that's when he likes to get it on. Yeah, and not anal. Well, maybe. I don't know. I go back and forth.

I don't know what they're doing. I don't know what they're doing. Let's not judge people. Penny Coleman, Pow Pow Comer. Wow. I think it's somebody. I'm pretty sure. Wow, wow. Because I just wrote that down, and I don't remember think it's somebody. I'm pretty sure. Wow, wow.

Because I just wrote that down, and I don't remember why I wrote that. I just wrote that. But I wrote that down, and I think it was a dude's dad or his grandfather. Sometimes I write words. You know, sometimes. And Paupau. Oh, thank you, Paupau. We appreciate it.

So Paupau was either sick, or he listens, or something special happens with Paupau, and Comer was very happy about it. I wanted me to write that down. Well, thank you. Executive producers this week, I said Desiree Dahlia, Desiree and Dahlia, Gary's wife and daughter, Brittany Weaver, Ryan Hatcher, Brittany Burke, Ben Story,

Amy Spicer, Regan Shalkley, who she came to the show in Nashville. Cool. Stephen Tucker, Jessica and Adrian Adams, Jordan Bennett, who also came to the show in nashville cool steven tucker jessica and adrian adams jordan bennett who also came to the show yeah she was in from fucking they came from canada her husband down from canada thank you so much guys he's a cool dude he is you guys are both great michelle gilbert i think this is ruby volpini i think i wrote ruby but it may say robie um or raby uh or i think it's ruby okay that that's more of a person's name, but I'm probably wrong either way.

It makes more sense, but who knows. And Marie Rogers. Thank you guys so, so much. I appreciate it. Happy birthday. Birth-yay. Because people pulled some money together to get Sarah something nice. So thank you guys very, very much.

Thank you so much. Lainey Eagle, Justin Miller, Ashley Veo, Kayla Innes, Thomas Smith, Rob Roberts, Lauren Moxley, Melissa Williams, Callie Shinkunas, Dana, what did I do, Bartram? Yeah, Bartram. Jessica Fiddick, or Fiddock, Ryan Polina, Amy, no, what is that? Damn it, Demi. Demi Saldivac? Yes, I think.

God. Saldivar. Saldivar Yes I think God Saldivar Saldivar That's right John Retta Jesse Pitts Hannah Ho Or Hoff Hoff

Hoff Hoff I think Doug Larson Jessica Leitke Michael Scott That's actually his name It's not the guy from The Office

Oh okay Yeah yeah Pammy B Cynthia Lapham Lanny Blunk Rick Sikorski Mitchell Trapp Humphrey Oh it's Mitchell Trapp, Humphrey.

Oh, it's Mitchell Trapp and Humphrey the Cowardly Corgi. You know what Corgis are? They're fucking adorable dogs. Yeah, they're cute. Cute little fuckers. They got tiny little legs. They're amazing. Mariah Hardiman.

Welcome to Dog Corner. Small town murder. Every episode at the end, we have Dog Corner. I really love a Corgi. We discuss a different breed and its leg sizes and its veritable levels of cuteness. Aaron Ishik. James Marder. No, James M. Hooper.

That's what that is. Rosalda Aulos. Aulos, I think. Avalos. That's what that is. Kent Messamacker. Messmaker or Messmocker. Julie Sutton.

Ashley Lewis. Jesse. James Marder. Austin Fowler, Ben Mascow, Robin Durbin, Allison Morris, Kath Leder, Casey Huffman, Janice Hill, Riz, there's no last name, but Riz. That's a cool name. From Greece? Yeah. Was that Rizzo? No.

Yeah, but they called her Rizzo. Oh, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Darren Mehal, he was the one that came with Jessica from Florida. yeah was that rizzo no yeah but they called her rizzo oh that's right yeah darren darren mehal he was the one that came with uh with jessica from uh from florida okay yeah yeah that's interesting hey thank you uh megan megan tolman jeffrey lee uh brendan ables margie kunze peter uh vicka banda vichit vichit banda uh i don't know cool goddamn person yeah anna matuszewicz uh kathleen kathy no k yeah kathy stevens heather heather do do jacana do jacana do jacovich do jacob do jacob yeah the joke of it

jacob jacob that's what it is jimmy jesse hartman way to fucking come through in the clutch baby really stuck with that one bressie called no brett kolb uh damn it leslie that's what see god damn it i mix words together because i'm trying to get to the next one and i'm and i'm reading this one and then trying to pronounce the next wonderful jen stevens paul paul ruas that's hey so he got his uh he got his faa license and he can't wait to tell you about his new business. That's awesome, man. The only thing you told him was an eight-year-old's job, flying drones and shit and taking pictures. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a dream job.

It's fucking amazing. Yeah, you're playing video games. It's amazing. Sarah Gray, Eric Langenacker, Caitlin Nutt, Maggie DePerlin, person, per chin, Clay Thorson, de perlin person per chin uh clay thorson philip chavis chavis uh amber weary uh tyler gwilk katie heisel uh that's katie yeah we know katie thanks katie uh carrie no cory carrie cory mcneil uh danielle cavanaugh god damn it uh christopher balco keisha newton uh molly mccarthy jim white Keisha Newton, Molly McCarthy, Jim White, Tanner Rodriguez, Martina Kunkel, Sean Burkett, Kyle King, Lauren Kunkele, Louise Rayfield, Dave Anderson, Margaret Bounds-Savvy, Stephen Rood, Timothy Smith, James Fraker, Lauren Sanford, Mike Kennedy, Vincent Walker, happy

birthday, Neil Campbell, Rachel Stora, and Homestretch. Here we go.ic berry melissa silsby uh damn it i was gonna go fast and i fucking ruined it already daisy alexander why can't i say that mj uh no first name no last just mj uh chris bataglia casey shatters uh rick freeman l mitchell leatherman l michelle oh god nice uh esme squirrel, nice. God damn it. Esme Squirrels? Squires. Esme? Esme.

Esme? E-S-M-E? How do you say that? Esme? Esme? It's me, Squires. It's me, Squires. It's me, Squires.

It's me. My name is Squires. FML, it's Frank. Thorsten Gross. Thorsten Mellon. Yeah. Jane Major. Brooke Reeves. Park Gary. Kelly Walsh, Bree Renew.

Yeah, I think that's right. Katie, no, Kathy. Kathy Stearns, Desiree Brown, Morgan Haynes-Manyon, Whitney Horn, Tony DeMartino, Rachel Cornelio, How do you do this? How do you do this how do you do this show after show just read reading stuff and there's words yeah how do you how do you pronounce shit that's the tough one stephanie uh stephanie burrows lindy simmons kate k hol Holcomb. Names are hard, dude. It is. Because they're not normal words that you see every day. It's not like, you know.

Alyssa Sylvester, Tara Rosowitz. You don't see Rosowitz every day. It's not a type of bread that you see on the shelf. And you're like, oh, it's Rosowitz bread. Yeah, I know that one. It's an easy name. Amanda Clare. Bad Fish Squish.

Joe Pezzi. Ian Long. NeNe. No, NeNe nina jorenstad uh lindsey lindsey trotter adrian love colin o'toole sarah with no last name randy thompson uh kevin gatsby no gatesy god see that's what i mean that's what happens i'm sorry and your handwriting sucks too which is another issue it does laura yarnell k with no last name or first name it's just the letter k uh justin sar alex and ryan matheeson wow god damn it thank you guys thank you for ruining my life making it better and then destroying it making it better to destroy it give me hope that i that everything will be fine might be able to read as long as i can say this shit well thank you guys so much for everything you do for us, and thank you for that, and

thank you for joining us this week. What if they want to thank you, Jimmy? Where could they find you out there in the world? You can personally tell me that I'm an asshole at atwismansucks, W-H-I-S-M-A-N sucks. I try my best to get back to you guys. I'm not always good at it, but I do my best, and I can guarantee you that. Where can they find you doing your best? You can find me at Jimmy P is funny

or just copy and paste my last name from the show description because you're not going to be able to spell it so don't bang your head against the wall just copy and paste it and save us all a lot of trouble and until then guys please keep joining us every week live from little tits Pennsylvania everybody

until next week everybody it's been our pleasure Live from Little Tits, Pennsylvania, everybody. Till next week, everybody. It's been our pleasure. Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.