Small Town Murder - #120 - Guns, Explosives & A Lion in Duchesne, Utah

Episode Date: May 23, 2019

This week, in Duchesne, Utah, a man who has always had trouble with the law, gets angry when some a couple that he knows may have wronged him. This anger turns to an almost cartoon like plot to not only kill, but to dispose of these people in a manner worthy of Looney Toons. All in all, there are foreign accomplices, shootings, burials, explosions, and a full grown African ion, kept as a pet. Did we mention that this story is insane??Along the way, we find out that Mormons didn't settle all of Utah, that The Sundance Kid may have died here... or not, and that dynamite is not the most efficient way to get rid of unwanted, non-living human beings!!Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman New episodes every Thursday! Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com & use our email: [e-mail] Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports! Follow us on... twitter.com/@murdersmall facebook.com/smalltownpod instagram.com/smalltownmurder Also, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Dushane, Utah, when two people disappear from a rural area, red flags pop up everywhere, including blood, body parts, and a lion named Sinbad. back to Small Town Murder.

Yay! Yay, indeed, Jimmy. Yay, indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I am Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us. We're psyched for this week we have a crazy episode this is this is a one of those where you're just like i don't even know only this show where this come from this is only a small town murder story could produce this level of insanity uh we will get to that uh first little uh house cleaning here just to keep up with everything.

Thank you for all your reviews this week. God, they're so important. So thank you for those. The purple icon, Apple Podcasts, iTunes, whatever the hell it is. If you give us five stars on there, it really helps drive us up the charts. It doesn't matter what you say. You can write anything you want. It's not for our ego.

Your words can't fix us. No. No. So it's just for business purposes. It really helps drive us up the charts. If you want to help, you can do that. want it's not for our ego your words can't fix us no no so it's just for business purposes it really helps drive us up the charts if you want to help you can do that that helps a lot you can also go to shut up and give me murder.com you should you should do that where you can get all of your all of your things and merchandise and t-shirts and mugs pocket robin shirts are up make sure to get those those are selling like hotcakes. Those are funny as hell.

Those are so silly. And also tickets to live shows. Yes. Slate of live shows for the rest of 2019 up there. A little update. We have some sellouts here. Pittsburgh. Sorry, Pittsburgh. They are gone.

October for Kansas City and St. Louis. Those are both sold out. We love Missouri. Jesus. The Missouris have come to our aid. They love us. Yeah, they're coming to see us, and they're both sold out. Those shows.

Omaha, Nebraska, the funny bone there, that's sold out. So, yeah, get your tickets to that. The first show is in Tampa, and then Orlando. Get your tickets to Orlando. That's selling pretty well. Yeah. And after that's going to be Columbus and Cleveland. And last time we were in we were in

cincinnati that was like the one of the fastest uh sellouts we had so uh get your awesome that was great we loved ohio so bowling trophy from we do that was a great place that bogarts well this time it's columbus and cleveland get your tickets to those now because we were afraid uh maybe you won't if you don't so do that i. Buy them, goddammit. Come to these shows. San Diego, too. We're going to be San Diego, LA in September. That's going to be fun. Go see those shows. Summertime in Southern California?

It's going to be nice. Late summer, too. September, it's going to be beautiful there. Nice sunsets. We can't wait. It's going to be a blast. We love it. So come see us there.

Other things you can do. If you want to be a hero of ours, you want to be one of our favorite people, our producers, we're going to talk about them at the end of the show, like always, in glowing terms. Tell them how much we love them. You can do that very easily. You can join that pack by going to patreon.com slash crimeinsports or heading over to PayPal using our email address, which is crimeinsports at gmail.com. You can make a one-time donation there.

And if you're saying, what's crime in sports? Why is that your address can make a one-time donation there and if you're saying what's crime in sports why is that your address that's our other podcast our first podcast and if you don't listen to it you're missing out we'll tell you that this week's was almost a small town it was crazy yeah you can start that's a good place to start this week's because it's not a lot of sports and really honestly we all a lot of times we say it's lowercase sports or uppercase crime. It's one of those. It's crime with some sports because the guy played sports. But it's mainly just to tell you where he got to and then fell down from grace. Because that's what we like is to mock somebody's fall.

So listen to that. We're about ready to get started here. But we need to do the disclaimer quickly. This is a comedy podcast we the stories are real and this week you're gonna go are you sure yeah we're sure this is real i promise uh the state uh the state court documents aren't lying to us here uh this is all real stuff so we're not making it up we we do make jokes we are comedians so that's gonna happen we try to make jokes around things.

There's a lot of funny stuff around murder. Sure. A lot of craziness going on a lot of times in these people's lives and things like that. What we don't do, though, what we try not to do anyway, go out of our way to try not to do, is to not make fun of the victims or the victims' families because we're assholes. But? But we're not scumbags. That's true.

That's true. We're trying our best here. We're just trying to have a good time with a crazy story but keep in mind we are assholes we are assholes but uh if that sounds good to you well you're about to have a blast because this is a wild story we're gonna have fun if that does not sound good to you and true crime and comedy should never mix then uh this isn't for you you should probably not listen to it and uh thanks for giving us a shot, but have a good one. It's a bad first date. Didn't work out.

It's fine. We'll pick up the check. It's fine. We got that. We got your drink. Don't worry. I'll delete your number. It's all good.

And then we're just going to delete and move on. That sounds good to you. I think it's time. I think it's time to stand on your cubicle in the middle of your office. Employment be damned. Wherever you are, stick your head out the car window. Scream it through your house. Even if other people are asleep, it's fine.

Yell, shut up. Give me murder. Let's do this. Let's go on a trip, Jimmy. I'd love to. What do you say? We're coming out of Kentucky last week. Twice with the bonus.

With the little bonus there. All Kentucky all the time that was a horrible radio that was a all kentuck all now just bluegrass bluegrass and more bluegrass so w hey that was that was the radio station literally w-h-a-y that's how rural this fucking place was we're going to an even more rural place if it's possible this week just opposite out west oh we're going to utah out west to utah to dushane utah dushane dushane just spell that for me u s c h e s n e no no no almost though okay d u c h e n s n D-H- I'm sorry. There's no God damn it. See, I fucked it up already.

D-U-C-H. There is no N before the S. D-U-C-H-E-S-N-E. That doesn't make sense, though, isn't it? Duchesne. I guess that's right. Did I spell it like that?

No. I don't know what I did. You put an S before the C. That's fine. Which was, that makes sense. This seems like duchesne. Duchesne. Duchesne is what it looks like, but that's what which was that's that makes sense there's this this seems like dutch duchess duchessny is what it looks like but that's what you're gonna get it's utah

this is northeastern utah it's below the little cutout in the northeast there so like salt lake city is north of it but northwest oh so this is like in the northeastern part off in the it's not really a panhandle it's more of like a side running board it's like a jetty it's a running board i'm gonna call it you got a panhandle you got a running board this is a running board state and this is a wow some panhandle behavior here uh it's in the middle of fucking nowhere is the best way to describe it this town is just plunked in the middle of i don't know it's just a high desert weirdness you can't really even think about what's near there i mean nothing wyoming is that over there sort of nothing is near there let's see it's two hours and 10

minutes to salt lake city yeah six hours and 15 minutes to denver so it's far from anywhere and two hours and 35 minutes to washington terrace which was episode 41, which was our last Utah. October 24, 2017 was the last time we did Utah. Utah cases are weird. There's so many that are hard. It's hard to find ones in small towns. They're all in Salt Lake City. The published-sized ones, it's hard. This is in

Duchesne County. Zip code 84021. Area code 435. It's about two and a half square miles, the town town proper but then it's spread out from there people live in kind of big properties and it's it's so strange there's certain parts of it that looks like sand and then there's just rocky weird areas people shouldn't live here is what it looks like a lot of utah is gorgeous a lot of it this is not one of the parts that's gorgeous at all this doesn't look like oh we're gonna go skiing this looks like how the fuck

can you see anything yeah how are we gonna make it out of here it looks like some of this area looks like uh it looks like a almost like a desert it's weird yeah a lot of that place is it looks like in space balls when they were combing the desert. It's like they stuck some houses along in it. That's the real estate report here. It's fucked up. We're combing the desert, sir. We ain't found shit. So the motto here, town motto, is, quote, gateway to the Unita Basin.

Yeah. That's the... Okay. I don't know where the Unah basement is a basin oh basin yeah not the unitah basement that sounds like a place where one of our cases would take place down in the unitah basement the horrors occurred it's unitah u-n-i-t-a-h is that is that right i think it's uintah basin uinta uinta yeah it's a it's an indian tribe yeah yeah basin yeah yeah yeah because there's a we'll talk about them that word's all over colorado that's the only reason i

know that that is their one motto then they have an alternate motto in case you're not interested in the outdoors uh that is quote your wife have a little sister marry her to utah so that's a good one yeah that one's they're attracting very different groups of people with those two mottos i feel like so uh history of this place now when it was settled by uh non-natives here uh it wasn't settled by mormon pioneers this is one of them young one of the few places in utah that was not settled by them fascinating because it was so fucking weird even too weird for that crew that weirdo they were like you know what we're gonna fucking take a pass on up there

we're gonna push on that there's some strange shit happening out there hey uh yeah you has a kaya and your six wives come here for a minute i want to talk to you there's weird shit going on out there send your youngest wife to she's nine they'll never suspect her of anything just send her over there this is bad we get that the mormons are fine now we've we've i mean they're not fine no religion is fine but we'll never mind that that's not in our scope they're recognizing that they're easy to make fun yeah i think that that's what they've noticed. They went, wow, we are pretty funny, huh? The bicycles and the shirts and the that's pretty funny as we look at it

objectively. I thought you guys would buy into this and it turns out no. If you take a step back, it's kind of funny. Like, I'm back here, dude. It's funny, brother. I'm telling you now. No, Elder Smith, look at me. It's funny. I'm telling you, bro. I have a helmet on. I'm a grown man with a bike helmet and a short-sleeved dress shirt. That's funny. I'm telling you, bro. I have a helmet on. I'm a grown man with a bike helmet and a short-sleeved dress shirt.

That's funny. Objectively. That's all I'm saying. We're riding around the streets of Philly trying to get the brothers to agree with us. That's hilarious. That's pretty funny. If there's any humor in the world, that's part of it. Now, Brigham Young did send an exploration party to

the uh to the uinta basin uinta uinta basin and uh they returned to him with the report that said it was quote a vast contiguity of waste measurably valueless accepting for nomadic purposes hunting grounds for indians and to hold the world together piece of shit we don't need they literally don't even want that land don't the rest of utah is better it's useless unless they're on a walkabout yeah so he said brigham young said all right never mind we don't even need to send people over there so that was how that started uh that was in the 1776 an expedition came uh came through here and through this valley. That's the first time kind of people discovered it.

And so from a diary from back in the day, it said, we ascended a not very high mesa, which was level and very stony, traveled about three quarters of a league including ascent and descent crossed another small river which is the duchesne river which is what this is named after uh which uh near here enters the san cosme which is the strawberry river and uh and camped on its banks so that's the first people that came here they said there was plenty of good land for crops they could that could support three good settlements opportunities for irrigation cottonwood groves good pasture and timber wood and timber and firewood nearby so they were saying it's got potential when they first crossed through it you could you grow shit and stay warm you could stay here and you bring them young we even later was like nah yeah nah

we're good we're good we don't need that shit. So they had, 1900-ish, there was leases arranged with the tribes through there, through an Indian agent who was, whenever we cover this, this was like that. They're such scumbags. Who was it? Peru, Indiana, I believe, that had the guy who died who was the Indian agent. The Indians were all gone and their land was gone and he was the richest man in all of Indiana. So I'm like, that's probably a little suspect.

Why is the real estate agent making so much money? Yeah, this was a guy named Major H.P. Mighton, who I don't feel like he has their best interests at heart. They sold land here to provide pasture for sheep, which is where the Duchesne City is located now, which is where they sold sheep pasture it's here so uh there's all sorts of shit here they talked about uh uh there's a lot of diaries from this area and they're all very sad yeah they're just very depressing and sad and fucking

about sheep herd every diary i read is about we took the sheep from here to here and then camped under a rock as the winds whipped around us and they're like fucking hard it just sounds horrible don't stay here yeah if you go like three more days there's an ocean do you know that do you realize if you just fucking just plug through all right wait till summer and get through that shit and don't don't the donner party remember them but then keep going a couple of sets of mountains to get through you are gonna hit san francisco eventually do you understand the fucking difference between where you are now and san francisco don't you like rice aroni jesus christ don't you like anything what is wrong with you fuck man jesus christ uh they said the indians had a in this one uh diary they said the indians had a big village

where dushane is now and uh it was they'd stay there in the winter and in the spring they would scatter to hunt and gather and do shit like that they had a a big fence across the canyon that was used to for the livestock that they had and shit like that they had there were salt grass in the area okay wow that's there was another place that had salt grass i think it was florida i don't i don't remember yeah there was a big fucking deal there yeah one of the youth tribe leader refused to let settlers with their sheep uh have permission to trespass through the village because the indians thought that they would uh eat all the good grasses they're going to come through and

eat all our good grasses if only they realized that was just the Indians thought that they would eat all the good grasses. They're going to come through and eat all our good grasses. If only they realized that was just the beginning. You can have the grasses if you leave. We'll take up a little higher. They're taking a lot more. The grass and then the shit that it grows out of, we're going to take just all the way down. Tell you what, why don't you guys move over here? We're going to gather you guys up in this area.

Well, your chief's out there counting grass blades. Salt grass blades. Everybody else is being moved the fuck out and slaughtered. Not terrific. So in 1905, the Secretary of the Interior of the United States directed the Commissioner of Indian Affairs to pick some tracts of land on this reservation that were suitable for town sites. They're like, you know what? We've decided we're going to're pick some shit out decide some some of these families you don't like in these tribes and we're going to take their land and uh so they were going to reserve that as like this is united states land now you can't have it anymore uh they've got three sites which is

dushane uh the town of mitan which funny named after that indian asian who now there's not going to be there anymore and uh randlett was another one and then uh theodore roosevelt who was president at the time approved all this and uh declared the lands as reserved for the town which is uh not great they had land lotteries there each person was given a ticket with a number and uh there was numbers 1 through 111. So there's 111 people that were allowed to go stake a claim of land here, which is fucking insane. Did you just go claim your own shit? Yeah, 111 people could make their claim.

There was 60 people there right away. The first 60 to settle there were 46 adults and 14 children. 60 to settle there were 46 adults and 14 children uh they're uh they laid out all the streets around like right after that 1905 october 1905 the first cabin was built so they moved right the fuck in uh they changed the name of the town a lot at first it was called elsie uh then they changed it to dora yeah uh which was short for the guy who built the cabin. It was his daughter's name, so Dora there. And then they changed it to Theodore in honor of Theodore Roosevelt, who approved the land deal here.

They made short of say when the first white child was born in the town on September 15, 1905, the first white child born he was quickly put into many activities and was introduced to a raw vegan diet as soon as he sprouted teeth they started very early so many plates a very white child whiter than they thought it was going to be uh the winters i'm trying to think if being that that sounds amazing can you imagine being the one of the first people they're just like, we're starting a new town. If you get there first, you get to help design it. Yeah.

Freelance. You're now an engineer. And also, too, you can influence the culture and everything like that. Then the winter came. I went, fuck, it's cold in Utah. Jesus. Holy shit. They were living in tents and temporary shelters, most of the people, through a Utah winter.

And then the spring came and the Duchesne River overflowed and flooded everybody out. So they were just froze all winter. Oh, it's finally warming up. Oh, God, what's that? Water? I feel wet. Why is my ass wet? And why is it so cold?

Because it's snow melt, you fuck. Yeah. They said basically people after the first winter, a lot of people sold off their claims for nothing. Just to whoever would take them and left this place. The judge from the towns wrote, quote, One man asked me to write out a relinquishment for him, remarking, I must either give up my claim or my wife. She won't live here. So, yeah, you're going to drag your wife out there in the middle of. No, it's fine.

This tent and then a flood in the winter. And this is great. We're sitting on top of a rock isn't this wonderful and she's had a yeah they're living like in like where cousin eddie lived in vegas vacation it looks like like no i'm not doing this that's amazing i wonder where those people came from i wonder what was better than could have been anywhere it's back east i want to know which one though you know somebody saw a pamphlet back east, and someone was doing shitty wherever they were. And they were like, there's free land. We can start over, and let's do it.

And they packed up, and that was the dream. And they went, fuck this. Hopefully, they said, rather than go all the way back there, California's ocean right there. We could just keep going. Yeah. We're already over halfway. Much less expensive than you could afford to live in California. The flooding continued every spring.

I don't know how they kept anybody there until 1910. All it took was $5,000 to fix the problem, too. That was the thing. Five grand. Five grand. And it's done. Which is a lot back then, but five grand was given by the government finally to make four river cutoffs, and it was fine. Unbelievable.

Just done. They built a bridge in 1906. Then it was still Theodore. After that, they started organizing clubs and groups and shit like that. The Boosters Club raised $500 to build a bridge across a flooded-out area. So they were trying to make it better. Basically, everyone was calling it a muddy a muddy little town so it's hard to attract people there when it's just a muddy place uh once uh they got a better bridge in 1914 and then they started

shit started to pick up after that uh in 1910 once the flooding was taken care of, the population went up to 929. So there were some people there. And then finally, about 1910, the citizens changed it to Duchesne there. The post office was named Theodore still until about 1913 there. And then it turned into Duchesne. That's named after the Duchesne River here. It's taken from that that river and uh it was named after some woman rose phil rose philippine duchesne who was the founder of the

sacred heart uh near st louis missouri that's a church that's i guess a church or school or a fucking nunnery i don't know some shit a home for fucking pregnant girl teenage unmarried girl i have no idea what the hell they were doing back then. Sacred heart could have meant they beat the mentally handicapped. Sacred heart. We take them in and we beat them in a merciful fashion. Try to

beat the devil out of them. Clearly that's what must be wrong with them here. Beat them until they can count. Yeah, that's what you do. You beat them until they're not crazy anymore. That's how it works. Have you you ever seen a cartoon you hit a guy in the head with a frying pan he goes crazy you hit him again he's perfect he's more handsome yeah he's well spoken you hit him again he's right back to being an idiot and it can go on so forth from that because of that he's kid they got kicked by a mule fucked up kid yeah by the mule again he's great he's great yeah separate movies that's what

happens uh duchesne ended up in the 20th century was a home to uh had a lot of heavy machinery and steel manufacturers a lot of manufacturing there they had underground cranes shield haulers rifle barrels steam locomotive parts turbine parts gears spckets, all sorts of shit like that here. They had coal mines, power plants, anything that's bad for the people that live there. They can make a buck because it's the middle of nowhere. What else are they supposed to do? The products, they ship a lot to Canada, Mexico, all over the place out of here. Agriculture's been a lot around here, a big deal.

There's a lot of federally owned lands there, obviously, out west. But they lease it to people to do cattle ranching out there, too. And overgrazing, though, has led to a decline in sheep and cow production there. That'll do it. That'll do it there. Small farms are mainly what's there now. It's not a lot of giant shit. Back in, like we said, 1910, it was 929 people.

And right now, it's 1,826 people. Banging. So you doubled in 100 years. It's not that great. It's up 39.6% since 1990. Oh, so right now it's really booming. Yeah, people have gone. It's slowed down a little bit in the last 15 years. But median age here.5 wow they're young this is going to make sense in a minute not really

it's going to make sense here uh more males than females but it's pretty even uh basically it's so weird the median age is 30.5 and that's double as many 65 year old and over people as normal there's double as many old people here as normal but there are so many fucking kids here what is happening so every kid fucking demographic it's like three times as much what's happening yeah well what what religion what religion do you know that has a lot of kids it's a good point yeah so it's uh we don't mean catholics anymore they got they figured out birth control and they're not doing it on purpose anymore right so uh and they don't have to uh birth children for their religion you know that's yeah they're doing fine yeah they can hide child molestation they're doing great they had for years they're doing great on the money side it's so funny uh so uh

married population here is 62 it's normally 50 50 you're gonna get a lot of stats like that the it's a lot of out of whack shit single with no children four percent holy not a place to go party looking for single you know people here uh married with children is higher married with no children is higher it's just there is lower but it's because everyone has kids divorce rates lower uh the race of this town 91.35 percent black uh or white i mean black it's utah rural utah all the look on your face was like really no 91.35 percent white 0.0 percent black now you know 1800 people not a one black person. Not a one. That sounds on purpose.

It does. That's pushing on levels of on purpose at that. But that's ridiculous. That's ridiculous. I'm sorry. 1,800 people, not one fucking black guy walking around. Not even a dude's car broke down and couldn't get the fuck out of town. Nothing.

Nothing. 0.60% Asian. So, by the way, it was all Native American in this village. Now, 0.00% Native American. Not one of them either. Not a one. 6% Hispanic. So, religious in this town.

Normally 50-50. Here, 83.5% religious. My word. And no shocker here, 1.5 catholic uh 0.1 lutheran 78.6 fucking mormon yes uh jewish orthodox as a matter of fact very very orthodox unbelievable saturday fucking place is shut down before that sun goes down boy won't see you won't see a hair friday nights it's where where is everybody is it tumbleweeds going through you won't see beard nor hide yeah 0.0 jewish 0.0 muslim no no no no uh no not interested uh seth in this county 7.2 percent of the people voted democrat in the

last election of the two there's two major parties only seven percent voted for one of them 79 republican yeah and then 14 voted independent because they had that uh they had a local uh that the fucking mormon guy was a local guy oh who was like not mitt romney dummy they were fucking he's not even from there he's not even from there michigan massachusetts that guy boy do they love him pick a fucking home yeah no they don't even They were fucking. He's not even from there. He's not even from there. Michigan, Massachusetts. That guy. Boy, do they love him. Pick a fucking home. Yeah.

No, they don't even. Really? I don't think they do. Why would they? Because he's a Mormon. Who cares? There's plenty of people. Oh, fucking love Steve Young instead.

Jesus Christ. Vote for him. Yeah. Vote for Steve Young. Vote for Steve Young if you want to get a Mormon. Yeah, he's a little dinged in the head. He's not that fucking bright anymore. I don't think he was very much in the beginning.

So what? He's got to throw his ball down the sidelines pretty nice. Really, though? Better than whatever Mitt Romney's got going on. Maybe the nicest professional athlete I've ever met in my life, Steve Young. The guy is unbelievable. Everybody says that about him. The books where they're saying this guy's a dick, and they're like, like no he's just the most polite young man there was ever back in the day a newborn child to somebody to

take a picture with me yeah swear to god he's a nice i've never seen anything if that was me with my new fuck out of here yeah because he's and then if you stayed with him five more minutes you would have been fucking talking about something else so that's why they're nice so telling me of a nice nice place in my town i can yeah you want your own planet so uh you want your own planet when you die so uh yeah my own town i can go repay this favor yeah well a guy ran as an independent the mormons who didn't like trump who's you know morally they ran the guy ran as an independent that was a mormon guy and they a lot of people voted for him and they're like they were talking about he could take utah at one point and then they were like no we can't no no unemployment rates about

4.6 percent which is a little higher than right now normal uh median household income is about 49 000 which is about 8 000 shy of the median national kind of average here a lot of jobs in mining and extraction and shit like that, about 13% of the jobs. It's normally under 1% of the jobs. So that's the bulk of it. There's also agriculture and forestry and a lot of shit that they don't have in other places are pretty high here. And hard work. Yeah, hard work, outside type shit.

Some difficult things here. Cost of living, 100 being even par whatever uh here it's about 94 housing is pretty close to normal it's about 96 median household our median home cost here is 192 200 so it's a lot between 100 and 300 000 basically in this area and if we've convinced you you need to move to Utah. We have for you the Dushane, Utah real estate report. Your average two bedroom rental here is about 816 bucks. It's about 400 below the norm.

So that's, that seems like your deal there. I found a foreclosure. It is a truly depressing three bedroom one bath uh 1300 square feet of absolute tears and sorrow three beds and one bath wasn't depressing enough yeah it's a one and a half bath but it's just a depressing looking house from the outside it's really really depressing. $129,000 for that. I found a four-bedroom, two-bath, 2,112 square feet. Literally sits atop a pile of sand.

It looks like when Beetlejuice, when Alec Baldwin and Geena Davis go outside and the worm comes by. The sandworm? That's what it looks like. Except the house isn't as nice. Picture a shittier house sitting there. Sandworm. There's a sandworm outside. That's never been referenced in any podcast ever before.

I almost guarantee it. $160,000 for the sandworm house. Unless it was a podcast about that. No, definitely not real estate. I found a three-bedroom, three-bath, 4,384-square-foot house. It's on a big rock pile, but it's kind of cool. It sticks out. It's weird, but it's cool.

$299,000, which seems like kind of a deal for a place like that. Things to do. They have the grave of the Sundance Kid here, even though they're not sure that actually happened. There's research. They're trying to prove that the Sundance Kid didn't die in Bolivia, but that he actually returned to Utah and, you know, fucking operated a farm two miles east of Duchesne until he died in 1936. Either way, he's fucking buried there. And they're going to hold on to that as a legend. They got a body.

That's right. Also, the Pope Museum, not a museum of popes. You looked at me like, why would a Mormon town have a pope museum? No, it's Pioneers Fred and Marie Pope, not the actual popes there. There's also a lot of war monuments and shit like that. Crime rate in this town, what we're interested in. The property crime is about 10% low, which I thought it'd be lower. It's all fucking Mormons.

They're not supposed to be stealing from each other. What's up with that shit? Jesus Christ. Yeah. What the fuck, guys? It's your book, Seth. Yeah. You're supposed to be nicer.

How are you going to get people to join if you're not nicer than everyone else? Violent crime here, though, the murder, rape, robbery, and assault, the Mount Rushmore of crime is about half the norm nationally. So it's safe. It's just your shit might get stolen, but they won't kill you to get that shit. They're going that far. Yeah. We'll just take it when you're not looking that way it's not a violent crime so uh mormons always go right

to the edge of of being bad like yeah the the term soaking if you've never heard of it yeah yeah it's gross yeah we know yeah we don't need to go over you can you can google that shit but that is that's a mormon thing that they started that and that's just going to the edge and then being like this is for all religions as far as that far enough catholicism has catholicism had made fucking anal mainstream are you kidding me that's my point though christianity those kids are like i can't do it no i but i gotta save myself and jesus just put it in my ass that's that started that's religion yeah 16 year old girls didn't think i think i want i think i wanted my ass that's not where it started it's not where it started but that's not toeing the line that's

real fucking but that's that's fucking that's finding a loophole is what that is and that's exactly what they're fucking doing let's find the poop it's a loophole poophole it's a poophole loophole that's disgusting so but that's what it is it's a loophole poophole. It's a poophole loophole. That's disgusting. That's how it works. But that's what it is. It's a loophole. Which really... Soaking is way worse. I mean, way nicer. It's just get in there and sit there for a minute.

That's way weirder. Test the water. Yeah, it's bizarre. That's way weirder. Hey, let's neither of us enjoy this. Well, because all of us are just like, well, one of us is going to have some gonna have some fun right yeah and the other one who knows they might end up finding that it happens forgive the pun james but it's a crap shoot it's a crap shoot so we need to talk about this murder because it's crazy shit uh here uh it's fucking

nuts i don't even know how else to describe it. It's crazier than what we just discussed. It's... Jesus Christ. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched.

He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied.

Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Aaron and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence, and interviewing those

close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly.

And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar.

Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast morbid follow morbid on the wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts you can listen to episodes early

and ad free by joining wondery plus in the wondery app or on apple podcasts uh it's let's start with john pender let's start with this guy john pender okay uh this guy's a fucking lunatic let's just let's just put it that way here uh he's a he's the son of a guy named robert pender okay uh this guy's a fucking lunatic let's just let's just put it that way here uh he's a he's the son of a guy named robert pender who is uh he's like a rich one of these like western like kind of wealthy dudes who has like a ranch and speculates in oil and is a real gambler like as far as that goes like well i don't care we'll fucking stick a thing in the ground there and see what it shoots up you know what i mean like will and no gamble is his fortune on things and shit like that but he's like a real you know a brash wealthy kind of dude that is very well liked around around the area uh he moved to nevada uh

and stayed there for 40 years and you know him and his wife lived there for 40 years and all that kind of shit big big uh big, big in the area. He moved to Salt Lake City and then then outside the city and shit. His son, John, is kind of a shithead, though. He's a rich kid who is the worst of all rich kids. He's like he grows up in this. He lives on this ranch with them. He kind of sort of runs a ranch with his dad. Kind of.

They also speculate in oil. We'll get into all of his businesses. Uh, John's also complete lunatic. He keeps a full grown African lion named Sinbad on the ranch. Isn't that illegal? Probably. Um, full grown, uh, lion that he, he controls it. He has like this lion bat, a big baseball bat that he has.

It's like the lion bat that's like that what he uses is like a tamer like people use chairs and shit good lord and he like he's famous around this town for having this fucking line he'll take it to town as we'll talk about in future arrests he'll take it to town no and just like fucking like wrestle with it and shit and like show people it's a female lion you could tell so i mean it's not sinbad it's still fucking yeah it's still it's so it's it's a lion it's huge but it's not like a like the biggest line you've ever seen like you know one of those doesn't have a mane on it it's not a male it's not a big male lion it's the female lines are smaller fucking big it's still bigger than both my dogs put together and they're huge so it's just huge and there's a

picture of him we'll post it in this episode a picture of him where like the lion's on its back and he has it like pinned down like he's on top of his hands on his paws like pinning it down like he's you know like he just won a wrestling match against it what fucking year is this this is this is through the 80s and 90s this is happening this isn't 1955 yeah this isn't. He's not, you know, getting two bits of gander for people, for rubes to come look at the lion. Put your head in the lion's mouth. An extra, two extra bits to put your head in his mouth. We'll take a picture for you.

Show all the family back east. Hold still. It's a 10. You can tell them the lion's a native town here. They won't know the difference. Good Lord. Send them a postcard. So, lesbians.

What the fuck is going on here? Have come to Utah. No, he, Jesus Christ. Full-grown African lion named Sinbad. Where did he get this? He's hanging out. He's a rich asshole. What the fuck?

Who knows what kind of bullshit. In the mid-80s, in in 1986 this is pretty goddamn hilarious uh this fucking idiot is jesus christ he's got a lot of problems basically he's on trial uh in the mid 80s for receiving stolen property at one point uh he's and it's it's fucked up too because he's he's got all sorts of issues uh uh with that he's on trial for that he's also facing a charge of conspiracy to distribute cocaine and can count the possession of stolen property uh it's just a he's a fucking disaster this guy there's all sorts of uh he's like that affluent kid in texas yeah for the dui he's he's like the guy in boogie nights that they go to rob like except on a ranch

yeah you know what I'm saying? Like he's just got coke and a lion and like he's throwing fucking firecrackers around. And he's just a crazy son of a bitch, except put him in a ranch instead of in the hills, Hollywood Hills. And this is what you get. The Pinders together, they have interests, business interests in these companies. The Wilcox Corporation, Three Creeks Corporation, which is a property venture company, Braintree International, which is a security and commodity service,

Pace Center Land and Investment Company, which is real estate, Aviva Exploration and Development Company, which is oil, Savvy Oil Company, Inc., which is an oil and gas exploration company, Roadrunner Oil, which is an oil and gas exploration company roadrunner oil which is an exploration company uh solomere associates which is an investment company and team simba later on which is a partnership john pinder created to manage his lion's movie career what in the fuck my lion's a movie star oh boy you boy. You motherfuckers. Who wants my lion? Who wants? And my crazy bat shit, insane fucking meth-y weirdo, sand person, sand worm, ass to come

with it. Who wants it? I mean, that's a brilliant move, because how many lions are there in Hollywood? Tamed lions? I mean, I don't know. How many are there? Twelve at best? But there's big companies, and there's also handlers

that have been in the business for 30 years in hollywood that do this sort of shit that there there's only a few people that you call for animals in a movie in hollywood yeah it's hard to break into that and the funny part is whenever you read anything about movies and they have to bring animals in the handlers are always the weirdest people on fucking yeah they're the straight and this guy is no exception it's not just even the guys that are on camera yeah though people like jack hannah fucking weird dude yeah you have to have a certain

level of strange to want to play with a lion and think that that's normal strange people but yeah this whole thing here you look at this and fucking he's got a fucking lion he's just gonna try to make monetize the lion it's i mean this is pre-youtube so you got to do it on all on your own and the fucked up part is the lion's

name was sinbad until lion king came out and then the lion's name was simba all of a sudden simba's a boy he changed the fucking that's why it's team simba is the name of the thing and they changed the lion's name to the lion. The lion's a girl. Doesn't matter. Fuck it. People know what the fuck Simba is. You should have went with Nala, you dickhead. Yeah, so he went with Simba there. So now let's talk about a few other people involved in this thing. You got a good idea of just John Pinder right away. Just a lunatic, basically.

Out of his mind. Yeah, like Hunter S. Thompson without the talent. You know what I'm saying? I'm a huge Hunter Thompson fan, so that's not a knock on Hunter Thompson. He looks like he lived a great, hilariously lunatic life. He had fun, but he also wrote great shit. This guy's not producing any works.

He's just acting like an asshole. So, let's talk about June Flood and Rex Tanner. Okay? At this point here, we'll talk about the late 90s as we go through. They're together, boyfriend, girlfriend, long term. June is about 10 years, 11 years older than Rex.

All right. Like he's in his late 40s. She's in her late 50s. All right. So that sort of thing. Now, Pinder here, John would employ them on the ranch from time to time. They were like spot help here and there on the ranch. Because there's a bunch of ranch hands that he hires.

We'll talk about a couple of these guys here. But after there was some sort of an accident where Tanner ends up, Rex Tanner ends up stopping working for John after Tanner's leg is injured in an accident with a horse. working for John after Tanner's leg is injured in an accident with a horse. It stepped on him or he fell off a one or something happened with a horse and he ends up not working on the ranch anymore. And so Pinder ends up telling his girlfriend there, June Flood, that she has to get the fuck off the ranch if he's not there, because now he's accusing her of stealing documents. There's a it's a crazy fucking thing. He's getting a divorce.

Hold on. Pinder is getting a divorce from his wife at the time. They have an ongoing divorce dispute. He lost some documents that he needed. John Pinder did. And he accused Tanner and Flood of stealing them. Good Lord. Why they would want his court documents that have to do with his wife. stealing them good lord why they would want his court documents that have to do with his wife i have no idea what they would want to do with them

but apparently his wife in this dispute there was a threat of losing the ranch to his wife or whatever or having to sell it or something so this was very important to him to have his papers and uh he thinks she was had a hand in stealing them so tanner can't work anymore and floods kicked off the fucking ranch there so uh he reported the theft pinder did to the cops yeah saying that they did it and all this and the cops are like oh what'd they steal what's the value value on that oh zero okay we gotta go they stole eight cents in copy paper i don't know what we want from us exactly what what do they get out of this nothing okay uh yeah we're writing it all down john no problem they stole they stole what what they stole a fucking uh document they stole something that they have to go recycle now they stole documents that

have nothing to do with them like why would they do that there's nothing to do with them there's no they stole something they have to throw away. He probably lost papers, like people do sometimes. Lost a folder. Misplaced something. Somebody threw it out by accident. There's a bunch of people working around here, too. Who the hell knows? The police described him as, quote,

livid with anger while reporting this. Wow. He lost his fucking mind over these court documents being missing. He would speak constantly of his being pissed at flood and tanner uh about this for months that's all he would talk about they you know these fucking flood and tanner i sold my goddamn documents everyone's like really oh great why are you still talking about that why would they want that shit was it a dossier or is this just like yeah you know what i mean what what was in your document what is in

there was there money in there cash stuffed into these documents that simba's birth certificate was it a contract was he the model for the next for lion king 2 is that what's going on is simba now the mgm lion is that maybe that's what happened uh so he even uh confronted them and threatened them uh in public and in front of other people in connection with other shit that he thinks they stole or thinks they did. He just has like this. For the next six months, if something came up missing or he couldn't find something, he'd just say they stole it.

So if he loses anything from then on, it's fucking flood and Tanner stole it from him. Can't you just walk up to the door and just be like, can we fight about this and get it over yeah no he would well just throw punches the one guy's got like a messed up horse leg he got his horse leg mangled and pinders going after him about documents that these people are now the flood and tanner aren't exactly upstanding you know yeah people either let's talk about that and they're working on a farm they don't have it together yeah they live in the backwoods and there is rumors of quote drugs debauchery and the manufacturer of methamphetamine oh yeah uh is what all their neighbors talk about with them so they're that house it's only a party they're cooking yeah they're they're they're cooking up

in the backwoods here uh so you know they're known as kind of a fucking wild couple but who knows if they're capable of not saying they wouldn't steal something, just maybe not something that doesn't benefit them in any way. Meth will make you take things for no reason at all. Maybe I can burn it later and then make a fire and then I can cook something and that'll be worth something and I can sell it. I can melt this paper down. I can melt this paper down and then it's going to turn into liquid paper and then you see that and they sell it in the store. I'll put it in a little bottle. It'll'll be 2.99 and then people will do it on their diaper okay good got it got it so now i only do it i got these papers okay and they leave

uh so uh yeah uh all sorts of weird goings on though that the neighbors talk about here also tanner rex is uh as they put it in the newspaper, well-known to local law enforcement. He's been paroled twice after stints in the Utah State Prison and has been convicted of driving under the influence, possession of drugs, and distribution of a controlled substance, which was methamphetamine. Oh, I was thinking it was other people's court documents. Other people's, yeah. There's a big black market thing for other people's especially divorce papers they really want to hear what people who are no longer together were fighting about that's a real like oh she did that in september of 87 that's fucked up and what did

he do oh that's messed up boy yeah i think she should get 60 of the assets and they should sell that that's what people want to do in their spare time for entertainment. That's what I like to do. Oh, boy. So this is all early to mid 90s. This Rex Tanner. So his 40s are filled with crime and prison and not a good grown up thing. No.

At one traffic stop, Tanner's blood alcohol content was quadruple the legal limit in Utah. So he was fucking a hammer. So it was 0.07 yeah it was yeah well leah in utah i guess it would be that's a lot of 3-2 beer no that's a lot that's a lot i don't know how they do alcohol in utah i guess we'll find out but uh i i don't know they don't they have like some weird system they have i don't know. Don't they have some weird system? I don't know. They have 3-2 beer. It's half the alcohol content. It's genuinely impossible to get drunk on it. By the time your body has digested it, it's burned all the alcohol off. It's really stupid. It's ridiculous.

It's really stupid. This is why you think people want the states to be able to make their own laws, and that sounds good for a while, and then this happens. Except Utah. You never know who's making the laws. This is a problem. It's still some half-hearted weirdo in a fucking... Yeah.

That wanted that job. If you want that job, there's something wrong with you. I would fucking say so. If you want to live in Utah, I'm a little... No offense, Utah. I mean, offense, Utah. I don't know. What are you living there for?

I've been to Salt Lake City a couple times. It's beautiful. It's fucking beautiful. And I think that's what lures people in. But it seems really weird. If you are a Mormon and it's like your people and you fit into it, then I would assume that that would be comfortable for you. They also have a huge population of Polynesian gangs there, which is bananas. Usually goes hand in hand with Mormons, honestly.

You've never heard that? No. Yeah, wherever, it's a true thing. It's the last place I would expect Polynesians to be, though. Well, wherever there's Polynesians, there's Mormons. Wherever there's Mormons, there's Polynesians. They go together, and they've traditionally formed gangs amongst each other, which are very, very powerful.

It's a Mormon-Polynesian gang. Very scary, fellas. It's very scary. What they do is the Polynesians, they're like the management of it, and they send the Mormons door to door to look into people's houses when they answer. They act like they're talking about Jesus and shit,

but they're really casing the joint. They go back, they tell the Polynesians what's up, and then there's a separate gang that they send in. Now it makes sense. Yeah, that's how it works. Has anybody been here today? It's really complicated yeah just mormons just mormons okay yeah never mind must not couldn't have been them couldn't be related that's what that's how it works but the the neighbors liked them though yeah they were known as like these crazy nutty fucking you

know kind of enjoyable people entertainment it didn't hurt their neighbors so they didn't mind they said they were a hard quote a hard-living, hard-working couple, one of the neighbors said, which sounds about right here. Tanner was just, you know, when he wasn't herding cattle for Pinder there, I guess he was fucking selling meth. I don't know. Another guy here is Filamino Ruiz. This is another ranch hand, this guy. He tells people on and off that he's a member of the mexican mafia uh he's a mexican national he's from mexico uh he is he tells people that he's really into knee deep in the drug trade and he's into in with the mexican

mafia and i guess they're spreading to rural utah and this is a they really want this 1800 person drug market in the middle of fucking nowhere. You know, it's a big... All sorts of mafias are fighting for it. The Polynesian gangs. The Italians are moving in. Irish street gangs from the fucking early 20th century are going to come through here. And a Mexican named Phil.

A bunch of tough Jewish kids are going to come in. Lower East Side kids are going to come in from back in the day. Fantastic. What the fuck is going on here? So Pinder, basically, the reason why he had Ruiz on the ranch was he wasn't a regular ranch hand. He was a ranch hand, but he didn't get paid from the ranch. The ranch is a corporation and all this shit, so they have a payroll that they do. Ruiz is paid in cash out of

John's pocket. He is John's personal employee, the way they put it. Whether it's doing ranch shit or he's telling Ruiz to go pick up his dry cleaning or whatever, he's like John's personal employee is the way they put it. A lot of people

say that he keeps ruiz around the ranch because uh ruiz is uh really good at getting drugs and that keeps john supplied with drugs so why not keep the guy who can get the drugs around the house which is a lot of rich people do that that do drugs they keep someone around who can get drugs so that i don't have to yeah you don't have to or you don't know where to get them either and this guy he's in with the mexican mafia i'm sure he's getting it cheap a mexican yeah uh pinder to one of his friends described ruiz as uh this is a this is not the label you want to probably be put on you uh pinder describes him as quote a drug smuggling gun running mafioso wife beating dog killer well so that's not very nice i feel like he did escalate it

drug smuggling that's fine whatever uh gun running okay that could hurt people mafioso that's got implications wife beater nobody likes that dog killer holy shit fuck this guy he knows how to i'll tell you what i don't know if he went to journalism school or what but he knows how to build he knows how to build. I'll give him that. He builds. He didn't start out with Dog Killer because no one would have ever heard Mafioso, Gunrunner. They would have just been stuck on Dog Killer. That's your closer right there.

Dog Killer is your closer. Pinder also says that Ruiz did some work on the ranch. He fed the ostriches and also would feed the lion, who Ruiz would mess with, too, and feed. And Ruiz was not supervised by Pinder's ranch hand supervisor. Very trusted. So, yeah, there was a guy who oversaw the ranch hands, the fucking tagger to the group, your Blazing Saddles reference there.

And, yeah, Ruiz was not under him. He was an independent lion feeding ostrich feeding gun running mafioso wife beating dog killer you call him an nfl player or just an nfl player really just michael vick works on the farm so uh ruiz everybody said that he really didn't work that much on the farm other than feeding the ostriches or something and yeah he was more of just a personal employee pinder would loan him uh his would loan ruiz his ak-47 for uh for quote work on the ranch just like loan here walk around with this i don't know if there's animals coming in or there's like wolves coming down to eat the livestock so you got an AK-47 to fend them off. That's a bad gun. That's interesting.

That's quite the, that seems like a lot. Seems overkill. I would say. For one thing. A shotgun in the air will probably do it. Might do it. If you got some animals, yeah. But no, an AK, spray that motherfucker with automatic gunfire.

I know it's a semi, but we'll talk about it. This isn't a semi. Oh, really? This is an altered. Oh, boy. This is automatic weaponry here good lord so uh yeah and also pinder provided ruiz with training in personal explosives no which he knew how to pinder for some reason i guess because he grew up on this ranch and young boys blow shit up it's a weird thing we want to blow things up when we're 12 i don't

know what it is right i get exploding targets. I get exploding targets. Yeah. But just to have explosives like TNT and shit? Once you're a grown up, you should not. You're beyond that. Once you find girls, you don't want to blow things up anymore. That's how that works. You want to blow things up and you like wrestling and you do all that. And then you see girls and you go, what? What are you blowing up?

Look at that. She's got boobs this year. I don't want to talk to you anymore. I like her. That's the normal progression of a young young boy this guy never got past the point of isn't it cool to blow shit up see that watch boom blew that motherfucker up uh yeah so he provides ruiz with so you want to add explosives to his wife beating dog killing mafioso resume this is how you do it uh he uh yeah he would him and pinder were like

this weird team of pinder and this guy who barely spoke english like it would follow him around it was like it it was just a strange pairing these two with a fucking lion yeah uh in summer of 1998 there is a a kerfuffle uh in town here when Pinder ends up getting in kind of a wrestling match with some cops in town where he shows up at a store with the lion. No. With Ruiz and his lion in tow, okay? And as they're fucking around with this lion in public, they're both drinking. As they're fucking around with this lion in public, they're both drinking.

Like, they're shit-faced, drinking from an open container in public, fucking with a lion. If you have a lion around the public, you want the dude in control of him to probably be sober, I would imagine. More than a guy driving a car. I'd say a lion's more dangerous than a car. Yeah. Yeah. You can do things to that vehicle and make it do... There's a safe use for a car. Right. A lion, safe there's no safe use of a lion it's just a lion it's fucking scary operating that thing under the influence is even that's operating a lion that should be

a special charge operating scary wildlife under the influence so both men end up getting and they have open containers so uh the cops end up wrestling with with pinder over this open container and the fact that he's going to jail they're both arrested and charged with driving under the influence and violating open container statutes pinders also charged with weapons violations possession of a loaded and concealed weapon possession of loaded firearms in the vehicle and possession of firearms while intoxicated oh and driving on a denied utah state driver's license doesn't even have a driver's license it is denied just deny you can't have one and you're driving anyway so this whole fucking thing he's just a goddamn disaster this guy that that whole scenario of two idiots drunk with a

lion in public at a store. Horrifying. Is why there are police departments. Let's be realistic. You can say, you know, like when you're a kid, like, anarchy, yeah, that's great. What happens when that happens? That's when we need some form of society. That's beyond anarchy. That's my argument against anarchy.

Fucking Jumanji. This is not okay. What if two dudes show up at the grocery store shit-faced with open containers and a fucking lion what are you gonna do then hi anarchy what's up with that you're gonna want to go with the bad you're gonna want someone who's in charge you just want someone who's responsible for that i don't want to be the one responsible i don't want to have to stop that situation responsible for lions in aisle six who stops anybody the manager said this is above and beyond his pay grade he said no i feel like should we call there's okay no one to call fuck it is there a number

this is scary so uh when i underline something is there a lion guy do we have a lion guy in town i don't know about that i know there's a b guy i had a tree last year which was a b guy but i never heard of a lion guy so it's not no one's ever had a lion problem in this town it's weird so uh this goes all the way into that's summer 1998 so october 1998 late october uh they're all jesus christ they're sitting around okay it's a it's an interesting night and day at the ranch. It starts out with Ruiz fighting with his girlfriend during the day. Okay. This, we later find out, is a staged fight.

It's a staged fight to get her off the ranch and away from the property today. He told them, pick a fight with her. Get her the fuck out of here. Yeah. Get her out of here. So apparently this fight went beyond the level of what they thought it was going to be because we chose the insult of your ass looks bad yeah i think well now there's a problem there's a problem bigger than that well it started out with getting a little fight she'll stomp off and whatever and then it turned into

ruiz ends up having to call 9-1-1 during the fight because it escalated well beyond your ass looks fat that's not even that he said i want to stab your mother while she sleeps at thanksgiving like he said some weird crazy shit well i'm soaking in your sister yeah yeah i learned it from those other kids in town from 78.6 of the people in this town so they want to get her out of here and ruiz calls 9-1-1 uh uh they all uh the police come so she leaves yeah you know because pinders like ruiz is fine to be here but it worked so she's gone uh the 9-1-1 call was recorded and we'll talk about that later because it'll come up later so at this point pinders hanging out with his, a woman named Barbara DeHart, who is a still married woman.

We'll talk about when they got together because Pinder stole this woman away from her husband of however many years. So it's Pinder, Barbara DeHart, Ruiz, a guy named Joe Wallen, who is Pinder's accountant, hanging out at the ranch, and another ranch employee named David Brunier. They're all sitting around hanging out. They're hanging around a campfire that Brunier has started on the ranch, and they're talking and drinking beer. This is like an Old West. I feel like they're farting and eating beans. Or it's 17-year-old kids.

It's 17-year-old kids. I pictured Blazing Saddles, obviously, sitting on the ranch. I think you've had enough. So they're talking. They're drinking beer. As the evening goes on, they start discussing shrunken heads. What? The fact that heads can, like another Beetlejuice reference, the shrunken head there.

How do they get them so small? It's great work. It's great work there how do they get them so small the so it's great work it's great work so small they get them so small so uh it's they're talking about shrunken heads and pinder saying shrunken heads seem super cool and uh you know he just thinks they're very fucking interesting so at one point as they're drinking and everybody's kind of winding down uh pinder says to ru, let's go get some heads. Uh, he says to him. So, uh,

uh, talking about, he wants to have a shrunken head. So let's give it a shot. Let's get some heads. Let's go do this. So Ruiz, rather than laughing and going,

ah, you're fucking crazy. Let's go feed the lion or whatever bullshit we're going to do around here. Ruiz says four or two. And Pinder says two. So, uh, which that means you want to kill these people or are we going to kill other people? Who are we killing?

These ones are more. Yeah. So apparently they they all end up going back to the ranch from the outside the ranch. A little while later, Pinder tells his girlfriend to heart here that he and Ruiz are going to take a drive and have a little chat that's what he says just out of nowhere we're going to take a chat uh he doesn't speak your language no he speaks english but you know i don't think he's he's not fucking winston churchill or anything but i think he can get by general he's got shit going on so before they leave pinder says hold on i on, I got to grab something. He goes and grabs the lion bat.

He goes to the lion pen and grabs the bat that he keeps for the lion and takes it in the truck with him. So Pinder and Ruiz then drive away. At this point, you're worried for Ruiz, I would say. You're like, he wants heads. We're going to go have a chat. And he just grabbed a bat. Yeah, this seems a little creepy here. So anyway, they end up driving off into the night, and they end up at Flood's house.

Of course. They pop up at Flood's house, where Flood and Tanner are both there. They arrive there. They knock on the door, and there's Pinder with Ruiz next to him, and he's got the lion bat in his hand. So this is an ominous sight, I would say, at your fucking door. Unless they want meth, you have a problem.

So they enter the house and Pinder says that they all need to go somewhere and talk. Go somewhere to talk, which, no. Why? Don't go anywhere with anyone with a lion bat, please.

So Floyd and Tanner said, no, we're not leaving. Fuck you, we're staying here. Floyd and Tanner. What did I say, Floyd? Floyd, yeah. Flood, Flood, and she're staying here. Flood and Tanner. What did I say? Floyd? Floyd. Yeah, Flood. Flood, and she's the woman.

Flood and Tanner refuse to leave. They say, we're not fucking doing this. So they didn't just say, okay, never mind. We're going to go find heads elsewhere. They're not good Mormon salespeople. See, if you told the Mormons at the door not interested, they just say, oh, thank you very much, and they move on. He has not, he's not real deep in the church right now he instead uh says well and maybe this would be the mormons should try this instead he takes his

baseball bat and hits pinder or hits flood in the face with it that'll do it i feel like that would make people listen at least a little bit to your pitch just for a second just i said one fucking second you couldn't fucking listen to my shit all day long doors in my face i'm trying to save your fucking soul asshole trying to give you a planet you know anything do you know anything about real estate fuck all fucking plan no fucking never mind so uh yeah he hits this woman in the face with a baseball bat and then turns and hits tanner in his bad leg with the baseball bat. He wasn't going anywhere anyway. Yeah, he wasn't going to run off.

So then Pinder grabs Flood's rifle that she has there and points it at them and says, all right, you know, this is how it's going. Ruiz would later say that Pinder looked, quote, as though he had the devil in him when he was doing this when he was wielding the baseball bat uh pinder uh then drags these two fucked up people i mean flood is pouring blood out of her face and mouth and tanner can't fucking walk he drags these people to the pickup truck throws them in there and they drive to a nearby lake okay this is all sounding frightening if you're these people this is not uh this isn't a welcome welcome thing here so pinder parks by the lake with all these people there's four of them in the truck total uh they all get out obviously they walk uh toward the back of the truck here he says come on we're gonna walk over here as this is going on pinder quickly

shoots flood twice what shoots her twice with a pistol that he had in the truck uh shoots her twice and then tanner's like holy shit but he can't run because his leg is all fucked up so then he shoots tanner three times in the chest and torso area here and uh so they're dead okay okay so he's killed them now they're by the lake they're dead now what do you do yeah okay do you just put them in the lake, maybe? No, we need heads. We need heads, but you know what? He's lost his interest in heads at this point.

What? He's trying to figure something else out. The whole purpose was the fucking heads. Yeah, but you know, Jimmy, it's so... You want a head one minute, and the next minute you want a PlayStation. Things go... He is a child. It's just really different.

He's the kid from the toy. Yeah, he doesn't know what he wants, really. Yeah, he's that little shithead. So he then, Pinder, drags the bodies to some bushes and gets Ruiz to help him move the bodies. Ruiz said he was frozen in fear up until that point. He didn't know this was going to happen. And then he ended up helping him drag the bodies.

Phil, how did you think we were getting ahead? You're doing all that point, he didn't know this was going to happen. And then he ended up helping him drag the bodies. Phil, how did you think we were getting ahead? You're doing all that good, man. So they cover the bodies up with some bushes and then they get back in the truck and return to the ranch house. OK, now this is where now they can't just leave the bodies in the bushes by the lake. That's not going to work out. So they figure out we need to get rid of these fucking bodies what do we do uh pinder says what do i have that can get rid of bodies yeah um a lot of things yeah i have uh i have a lot of branch i can just bury them yeah um i have a fucking lion right i could just feed them to the lion the water lions like

meat i got a lake i got a lake i could put them in a lake um i got axes and stuff i could chop them up you know what it would be the most fun though this is the most fun if we're thinking about it and if you're 12 what's the best way to blow it up i have explosives yeah let's just fucking blow these bodies up and that way they'll be gone that's what they're gonna blow them up it'll be super cool we'll put them up there we'll put the thing and boom there won't be any fucking bodies left how are they gonna find them when they're blown up how old is this guy uh 46 i think at this point uh 45 he's in his 40s he's a grown man uh so yeah so that's what they've chosen to do so pinder says okay i have a shitload of explosives all right let's do this uh he stores his explosives in a cave by the way

which you want to store your explosives in a in a damp place that's the best place to store explosives obviously uh which is close there's a cave close to the ranch house this is where he stores his explosives i don't know if that's so the police don't find them or what uh so they stop at the ranch house then they drive to the caves and retrieve multiple bags of ammonium nitrate and several pieces of dynamite wow dynamite real explosive yeah they don't they don't have some shit from chinatown like listen i got four m80 sticks i got some fucking uh blockbusters a little quarter sticks of diet we'll put like eight of them on there i think we could take a leg off take a finger off no no this is like the shit we're gonna implode a building uh we got

this shit let's take it i've got a bunch of tannerite but i don't think it could explode a body no no that would take a shitload a lot well it would take ammonium nitrate several bags and several pieces of dynamite would probably do the trick. So they load all these explosives into the truck, and they return to the lake to the site of the murders. And, yeah, they start, you know, fucking... Wiring it up. Figuring it out, stacking them up. They also take the rifle that they stole from Flood's home and shot and had there. They put that on there.

They pile the explosives on top of and like around like make a little yeah a little thing and they put it on top of him on of the two of flood and tanner and then they put the stolen rifle on top of all of that you know because that'll blow up too i guess like it's going to liquefy it's metal and wood it's not going to liquefy it's just going to lob that in the air pieces yeah maybe in a pieces, but there's a gun barrel over here, stock over there. It's going to be around. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery Plus, religion and crime collide

when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law,

her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app

or on Apple Podcasts. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is

Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of part one and watching along with part two as it airs on max starting April 21st. Bye bye.

The official jinx podcast. Listen on max or wherever you get your podcasts. So then he sets off the explosion. Oh my God. And it goes off the explosion. Oh, my God. And it goes off. Boom. Fucking blows up body parts and shit going everywhere.

So then he returns to the ranch house with Ruiz. Okay. Once at the ranch, John Pender here. He cleans his gun because, you know, he just shot it and cleans his, you know, he's a weapon care. He's very up to date on that. And he burns the clothes that he and Ruiz had been wearing that evening because I assume they had human shrapnel on them, I would assume, if they set off with dynamite.

So you figure that's it. Well, no, we still have more to do. Okay, that night goes by. They burn the clothes. They say goodnight to each other, tuck themselves in. Next day, Pinder comes back to the blast site with a bulldozer this time where he blew these bodies up. He bulldozes the area until...

What do you think made him stop bulldozing? The gun? No, no, no. Unexploded TNT? No. He ran out of gas. Oh, boy. This fucking idiot didn't think to fill his gas tank up before he goes to cover up his murder site.

He's like a mom going to pick up the kids. It's on E and the lights on. You know what? We'll make it. I'm only going a couple of miles. It's this back and forth. I'm on fumes. It's fine.

So he goes back there. Bulldozer runs out of fuel. So he only gets that partially done. What a dickhead. What an asshole man so later that night uh john uh and ruiz so pinder ruiz uh pinder's girlfriend to heart uh they all go to the brunier guy the ranch hand they go to his house for dinner or his shack or whatever the fuck he lives on there for dinner so on the way there they pick up several black bags okay uh like trash bags like trash

bags with shit in them not empty trash bags they pick up on the way to dinner they picked it up from that site uh which they transport to the ranch dump and they burn it okay pinder tells ruiz that the bags contained uh one of the bags contained quote one of Tanner's legs and a shoe a good one just a fucking leg with a shoe sticking off of it that's who we're talking about cartoon level violence here where bodies are

blown and actual legs came off of fucking bodies and landed with shoes attached to them and presumably smoke coming off of it this is cartoon level shit here ridiculous this is fucking nuts man uh so after dinner uh uh john and ruiz there they uh continued to try to hide evidence and stuff like that they went around jesus christ man they go around collecting additional body parts whatever they find. It's just wandering around going, what do you got?

I found a hand. Okay, put it in the bag. What do you got? Hey, I got a leg. I don't know. It's just tissue. I got a leg and a wing here. You still go for the old hearts and lungs, huh, Henry?

Go to my mother's after this. She's making some sausage and peppers. Good Lord, this is terrible. So, yeah. They're searching around, putting body parts in black bags, just scouring the earth for these things. Then they place, Jesus Christ, they then place all these black bags in a barrel, which was located away from the initial site of the detonation, not right on the same site.

They load all this stuff into a barrel, and then they blow that up. They didn't weigh it down and put it in the lake. They fucking blew that. They're like, well, we blew it up once. We've made it into small pieces. Let's make it smaller. Blow it up again, then we'll do one more round to clean up, and that should be it. It should all be little pieces.

Too little to identify after that. Three booms should be enough. This is fucking nuts. It's too little to identify after that. Three booms should be enough. This is fucking nuts. So they explode this barrel with more. So again, body parts flying through the air here. So the next morning, Pinder, he ensnares Brunier, the other ranch hand, in this effort to cover up this whole thing here.

Brunier gets to the ranch to do some welding for him, just regular work. But Pinder says, before you do that, I need you to get a fuel truck from this trailer and refuel this bulldozer for me. Because it's diesel. If you run a diesel out of fuel, you're fucked. Yeah, so you got to get it there. And we need to cover that shit up. So Brunier leaves with another ranch hand, the guy they were with, the Wallen guy, and they go to do that. But he was stopped by Ruiz as they were returning to the ranch house with the fuel truck.

Ruiz told Ruiz stopped him and talked to him there. And then Ruiz ended up going and talking to Brenyard. him uh there and uh then ruiz ended up going and talking to brunier uh ruiz hands brunier some paper towels and a bottle of rubbing alcohol and told him that uh pinder needed him to wipe down floods home to remove any fingerprints so now they're sending this guy the brunier guy over to their house that you know they kidnapped them from uh to clean anything up you're gonna send a dude that you just now told him a lot oh absolutely he's involved way too much but he knows of the extent you're willing to go to to get rid of bodies that might scare him yeah that's true you know so uh yeah he says go wiped any fingerprints any blood get rid of anything here

so uh after that uh uh ruiz and brunier went to the Flood home, and they had alcohol and rags, and they were removing fingerprints and all that. They first went to the ranch house to drop off Pinder's truck, which Ruiz was driving, and then they returned home and Brunier's truck. After they get back, Brunier complained about the smell of their house, of Flood's residence, to which Pinder replied here, quote, that's because Tanner shit his pants when I shot him. So that's what he said. Wow. That was his excuse for that. It smells like shit in here.

Yeah, yeah. His body evacuated. Yeah, that's what he told him. Oh, boy. So they then spent the day bulldozing and gathering more body parts because they there were still more body parts to find so they spent the day bulldozing what they had and then getting more body part it's like a fucking camp out yeah they're having like a day at the lake is what they're having but you turn a body into small pieces that's a lot of pieces and then do it

again and it's two bodies and more small pieces so many and more small pieces, you're never going to get rid of all these chunks that are flying everywhere. You're never going to bury it all with the bulldozer. You're just not. So it's ridiculous here. So they're gathering more body parts here. Jesus Christ, man, they keep doing this. While they were at this blast site, though, while they were looking for more stuff, they got more explosives out of the cave, the whole deal.

While they're at the blast site, Brunier discovered a what was described as a, quote, relatively large portion of Torso's Tanner or of Tanner's torso. Torso's Tanner of Tanner's torso to which Tanner's head remained attached. Wow. So it was just a chunk of torso with a fucking head sticking out of it oh that's too much that is like a crazy mannequin part yeah that is shoulders up no arms oh boy no legs no waist torso head that is a that's a horror movie prop that is a fucking disturbing horror movie prop that's a real thing that happened. Unbelievable.

So Brunier says he didn't draw any attention to it or do anything. He didn't say like, oh, I found this here. He just acted like he didn't see it. Really? Yeah. He didn't do anything. He didn't cover it up. That's more for himself.

I'm going to unsee that. I don't want to ever think about that again. He didn't tell Ruiz or Pinder about it. Nothing. Anything at all like that. So after this, after he helps clean up and does everything, Brunier then is scared for his life because he's like, shit, they're going to kill me now.

So he spends the next three nights in the woods with his rifle. He goes out and says, well, they're going to have to fucking come get me in the woods and then I'm going to hear them coming and i'm gonna fucking shoot him he goes out there like john rambo yeah in part one and just fucking lives in the woods and waits for it amazing come get me motherfuckers doesn't care uh so thursday october 29th pinder and his girlfriend leave the state they take off they're eventually going to end up in cataldo idaho here and uh we'll talk about that in a second here uh now a friend it's at this moment a few days go by finally a friend of floods starts noticing that they're not around yeah and so they her friend contacts police and they start investigating a little bit. While they're investigating and

doing this, a Sergeant Wallace Hendricks enters Flood's home. He said he found the residence in disarray. The refrigerator was pulled away from the wall. Pots and pans were on the floor. There was the blood-stained backrest of a living room chair and the sheets of

a fold-out bed. They were all blood-stained. They forgot to clean that? Yeah, they didn't clean any of that they just cleaned up fingerprints alcohol won't clean this one just fingerprint yeah they just to get my fingerprints off of there uh why so yeah they search all of there they shit vent out by then uh we'll talk about it they also found a pair of excrement stained pants in the bathroom wow so in the bathroom though so i don't know it was still that's why it was still there so uh after this after they leave they uh the sergeant's walking out and he notices a group of people standing by a near nearby trailer so obviously this is a trailer and uh he stops to see if anyone knows yeah any of you guys know who lives here do you know where they are so after

the after he leaves one of the guys he sees there is brunier oh he's standing there the officer described him as very agitated very nervous and seemed to be scared to death yeah he spent the last three nights in the woods he did uh upon talking to this cop though so brunier uh uh brunier uh after he walks the cop walks away from the group brunier chases after him and asks sergeant hendricks for a business card. And that's all he wants. So a little while later, Sergeant Hendricks receives a phone call. And he's told that Brunier has been contacting dispatch, expressing his desire to talk to the sergeant and talk to people. So the Sergeant Hendricks makes arrangements to have Brunier taken down to the sheriff's office and find out what the fuck this guy knows about.

He obviously knows something. To brief him. Yeah, he's got to know something. So he arrives. When he arrives, he gives Sergeant Hendricks the bottle of rubbing alcohol used to clean Flood's home and a letter prepared by Brunier's daughter, which is funny because he didn't write this out himself, reporting his version of events and what he witnessed at this point. Dictate this. Dictate this. So a ranch hand's musings on a murder.

So after the sergeant then organizes a search of the site of the murders there out by the lake, it's at this point that they find ruiz and they arrest him uh he's charged with theft evidence tampering and driving without a license and he's being held for investigation into these homicides as well uh they his bail is set at 500 000 cash so yeah not steep yeah a little steep here now uh now people are disappointed that the tanner and flood appear to be dead uh the neighbors said one of their neighbors said quote they were just the best people regular folks a waitress down at the cafe in duchesne uh they said what one person said why would this happen here uh they said we have heard a lot of rumors about the lying being used to hide

things pieces it's all pretty hard to believe but the police still have to check it out and it takes time you think that's crazy yeah we hear the real fucking story yeah like a lion yeah this is worse so i'm up several times and it still didn't work didn't work i just picture him hiding back there boom did i think that did it shit no that didn't do it a whole tour like a partial torso and a whole head. Jesus. Ripped him shoulders up. And it's just, it's still sitting there. Still sitting there. So November 4th, 1998.

It's about a week later. Investigators get a tip that a weapon may have been dumped in the Coeur d'Alene River in Idaho. Okay. And so the police spend two days combing the riverbanks for a weapon here. Now, they also confirm that they've been unable to locate DeHart. They really want to talk to DeHart the most out of everybody. Yeah. For some reason, his girlfriend.

Well, yeah, because the girlfriend's usually, for the most part, they're willing to divulge some shit eventually. It's funny, too. Well, at first they say he's not a suspect. They say John Pinder's not a're just i think that's just to lure him back in because they don't know where he is and they're talking about to heart and the police said quote we haven't found her yet we have no indication that she's dead it's just nobody knows where she is including her son so nobody knows where she is uh the cop at this point county

sheriff said quote we're dealing with some weird stuff here. He said, it's just they're like, we don't even know. Well done, Sheriff. What the fuck to do here? They're talking about, you know, they found the burial site, what they called it, a makeshift burial site. They say who they worked for, the police. Then the police say, quote, oh, my goodness, this is Ralph Stanfield, the county sheriff. He says, we're just trying to get the victims positively ID'd, but it's just sickening. then the police say quote oh my goodness this is a ralph stanfield the county sheriff he says

we're just trying to get the victims positively id'd but it's just sickening we can't find enough of them we can't find enough of them we're finding pieces we got some of them uh we got we got a chunk here and a chunk there and i found a shoe uh they found no shell casings around uh they're unsure where the couple was killed. They don't know what's going on. But they do want to know. They want to talk to a woman traveling with John Pinder, who is DeHart here. She told her family later that she helped her before this. The police know about this.

She tells her family she helped clean Pinder's truck of blood and help scatter evidence in trash can in trash containers and rivers between utah and idaho so that's what one of her relatives tells police uh so her her father talks to the press and says quote my daughter's in real real bad trouble uh she said they stopped at many small towns to get rid of clothes and throw the gun away. This is what her father says to the press here. Jesus Christ, man. Now, the woman's husband, this is how Pinder found her, DeHart, here. DeHart, her husband, worked in a mine

owned by John and his father. And then John stole his wife on top of it here. So, yeah, they're talking about, they don't know. They said he's not a suspect, but they know about him and all this type of shit. But they are going to arrest Ruiz, like we said. They arrested him. John's dad says he's innocent.

His dad says he's innocent. Robert says, quote, I don't think I know he's innocent, is his father says he said and i have no idea where he is sure he ran away but who doesn't run away after he thinks that ruiz did all this by himself yeah he says he knows but he knows he's innocent he stands by his son's innocence he says well all i know is he's innocent from the facts i know and i can't divulge those according to my lawyers there's no way he could have been involved in the murders. Sure, I'm worried about him. I haven't spoken to him other than a week ago when he called into the sheriff's department in Dushane. So the police here, they press asked the cops and they say, quote, I have one cop says I've arrested John so many times. John and his younger brother and his sister, Jenny, have been frequent guests of the Summit County Jail.

He does say, though, that despite his criminal record, he likes Pinder. This is what the cop says. He says, John is, in my experiences with him, pretty articulate and smart, a man who always has a scheme, but he's always really pleasant. We did a sting operation on him and some of his buddies, and we kicked in the door of his house in Prospector Square. Even in a crisis situation like that, he was always nice and polite and decent. They've been around the park and city. They've been around Park City, and we've all made mistakes.

It's too bad something this serious has to happen. This looks like a major mistake. He could get the death penalty. I'd call that a major fuck-up. Yeah, anything that someone wants to put poison in your veins is probably a major fuck up yeah anything that's you know someone wants to uh put poison in your veins is probably a a bad fuck up here he's a he's a nice guy when the cops come to visit so he's seeing good fellas yeah he knows how to do it oh don't be a dick here so uh he says quote uh from what i understand the attorney's trying to negotiate some kind of

surrender now uh between this week of october 98 and november 5th 98 here uh they traveled from the pinder ranch to uh to deshane's like a family home of hers in cataldo idaho and then went back through utah drove back through utah and ended up in las vegas they end up in vegas uh now they've known each other for about 15 years pinder pinder and de hart but uh de hart was married to kurt de hart since 1972 she's been married to this guy for 30 fucking years almost but on september 22nd 98 she announced she was leaving her husband to live with pinder so this happened a month before this shit uh she's leaving her husband to live with pinder uh pinder planned to move from utah to northern idaho where he had business interests

and he was going to move with her so uh after they made the announcement they drove uh she and pinder drove to utah she went up there to he went up there to pick her up from idaho and take her to utah with him so they returned within the week with some of john's property they also uh this they returned to be present for the birth of de hart's grandchild then they traveled to oregon and washington they returned to utah october 23rd 98 and stayed at pender's ranch in duchesne and uh october 26th, 98. She says this is this is all the week of the murder murders. October 26th, 98. DeHart phoned her daughter, Melissa, and said that she tells Melissa that things were not

working out as she had hoped and that she wanted to come back to Idaho. So Melissa testified that that she that that night Pinder and Ruiz had been gone all night and DeHart was upset. So this was the night of the murders. She says, they've been gone all fucking night. This isn't what it's cracked up to be. I want out of here. I'm going to go back. And then he comes home and he's like, I killed those people.

I blew them up. You got to help. And she's like, you know, I think I'm in again. I was out on this relationship i wasn't feeling it to be honest with you yeah uh but now i really didn't feel the trust but now if you want me to you know clean up your uh someone's murder victim's blood from your truck i feel like we've made a connection that's just trust i feel it it's there when i look into your eyes it's different now it's just different so uh they

arrived back in salt lake city on november 4th uh on that day uh both of them decide to appear on a news segment television interview about the murders before they talk to the police this is who they talk to they're uh shortly after the interview they're arrested yeah obviously two fucking idiots so uh later the investigators searched pender's ranch and they found what they call a gruesome assortment of the victim's remains strewn about the area stuck in bushes and hanging from trees oh good lord uh they also searched pender's truck and found 10 uh shell casings in there which i'm sure he cleaned up from the shooting site uh one of the victim's thumbprints on a side window nice fucking job to heart cleaning that truck up and some blood stains one identified as pinder's the other

unidentified in the truck police also determined that the rear windows had been wiped down and clean as well as the midsection of the door jam and it was just like nothing but alcohol not no normal window except the window yeah so she just didn't wipe that part down so uh they end up arresting pinder obviously yeah uh they do that they arrest him uh uh you know they uh ruiz by the way is cooperating like a motherfucker yeah he is singing like a goddamn canary good boy in in whatever language he can he says that singing la bomba oh he is singing it like he's fucking los lobos from the top of the mountains he says uh that pinder told him quote about flood and tanner quote they never should have lied to me they stole from the ranch and now they're vaporized jesus christ uh uh tanners uh jesus man uh they i don't even know what to say here they they talk about ruiz tells them about

heavy explosives burning them uh at one point ruiz tells them that femur found or pinder i keep doing this today i'm like dyslexic today Pinder found a part of a femur bone. Part of a femur bone, held it up to Ruiz and said, well, guess. What did he say? What did he say? How did you come to arrive? How did you come to arrive here? What do you got?

What do you got? Gross. Yeah. No. He said, quote, make a wish. Yeah. He says, quote, I'm going to make a bolo tie out of this piece. Out of the fucking femur?

Out of his femur. I'm going to make, I guess, the holder, the clasp. Yep. A femur. Right up the middle. Bolo femur. I don't know. That is gross.

I'm sure they do it with cow bones or something. I'm sure they do. But it seems like something they would do to completely dominate a species. That makes sense. We're going to eat you, wear you, and God damn it, I'm going to take your femur bone and make a fucking necklace tie out of it. How do you like that? Part necklace, part tie.

Hell yeah. So yeah, he says that. This is insane. So another point, Ruiz found a wristwatch while combing the area for body parts. Combing the area. Now picture uh space balls now i see it combing yeah we ain't found shit a big goody comb yeah yeah i love that they have the pick so uh that's right yeah they have the pick we ain't found shit so uh uh ruiz finds this wristwatch while combing the area for assorted body parts. That's what it says in the court documents. He held the wristwatch to his ear and he said, quote, it must be a Timex because it's still

ticking. Good Lord. Sense of humor. He's hacky as fuck. But yeah, it's hacky. But you know what? In that situation, I'm going to give it to him. I'm surprised you didn't blow their body parts apart and be like, well, their body's not a Samsonite.

It's not a Samsonite. Yeah. It must be a Timex because it's still ticking. Ha ha. Wow. Unbelievable. Hacky, but the timing on it. That's one of those like if someone heckles you, you have a comeback.

It doesn't matter if it's a brilliant original joke. It's just got to be fast. It's got to be right now. If he said it must be a Timex because it's still ticking, I might laugh if I'm with him in that situation. I might laugh. I might go, you're a cold-blooded motherfucker, bro. You're a sick son of a bitch.

I'll be honest with you. Yeah, we're a pretty sick fuck. So the police guy here said, the police spokesman said, quote, we're methodically following evidence and seeking leads in our investigation. Now, what does dad think? Yeah. His dad. What's up pop robert pender well he says quote i think he's being framed by the guy that's incarcerated you know the mexican this is exact quote in the newspaper you know the mexican

mexican that's his quote that mexican named phil and it's you know you know dash the mexican so like he put a fucking you know he put like a like a Kentucky fuck into it, like a Kentucky period into that shit. The Mexican who's incarcerated, you know, fuck Mexican. Did one of those. So, yeah, he says that's that's all it is. He said, quote, he and possibly someone else could be involved. They used our equipment. It's on our property.

And he had full access to the explosives. yes i've seen him around he's been taking care of the lion and the ostriches while john was in idaho on vacation uh the job pinder the father they said well what the fuck do you need all these explosives for and he said they build explore they use the explosives to underground shelters for the animals they raise okay uh i guess for winter i don't know uh pinder also said the father pinder also said he knew of no personal problems on the ranch between his son and tanner he said quote i saw rex tanner on the 21st of the month he was recuperating from an accident when he was on the ranch and he was supposed to go to the doctor on the 1st of december to see if he could go back to work for us so So he's saying everything was fine.

Doesn't know what the fuck they're talking about. What's happening here? So Pinder is held on $1 million bail, cash bail. Now, Ruiz is going to plead guilty to two counts of murder. Really? He's going to plead guilty, but it's going to be in exchange for testimony against Pinder. Sure. Because they think that this is all Pinder.

He denies being the shooter he accuses pinder uh da heart is charged with obstruction of justice because she does a bunch of shady shit that doesn't help any basically she lies about some shit here pinder is charged with two counts of aggravated murder two counts of aggravated kidnapping two counts of tampering with evidence one count of burglary of a dwelling one count of possession of explosives and two counts of desecration of a body that's a list they all match they match that it's not a something you want read off no about you so uh while he's being held in jail pinder meets an inmate uh named newly welch that's his name newly w new and then ly yeah okay uh he pinder welch claims that pinder bragged to him about killing tanner and flood and blowing up their bodies he said he told welch the day of the murders that he and ruiz had staged a fight with the girlfriend to get him

off the ranch now the funny thing is that welch the thing that makes welch credible is that welch knew about that he knew about the fight he knew about the fight in the 911 call and the police were the only ones who knew about the fight in the 911 call yeah so they were like oh you kind of got to take him a little seriously he at least knows about that so uh welch asked pinder what it was like to kill someone and in response pinder put his hand on welch's shoulder and said quote there's no bigger rush especially when you know you're going to get away with it. He said that from jail. You're in jail.

You realize the irony of your statement, especially when you think you're going to get away with it. Don't know is not the word there. So, yeah, this is how this is going. He wants bail, though. The one million. He's like, listen, million bail is crazy. How about this? Listen, what I'll do here.

I'll give you a lion. i got a lion and a bat no he he says what about a six million dollar property bond what if it's put up against six million dollars in property how about that because that's what this ranch and all this they have a bunch of holdings all this shit uh uh so the judge said that uh they can't give this property bond unless he can prove that his family holds full and clear title to the properties and all that kind of shit. Obviously, yeah, you have to obviously here. So the they asked to record to replace that with this property bond. But he said that he there they were considering it.

They would rule on it and then just decide on. No, they say that the bond the property is owned by Pender's father, not him, which is fine because he could put it up. But they're not going to allow it here. They said the property bonds typical required to be double the amount of a cash bond in this situation. They're offering six times as much and it's still no good. So, yeah. So Ruiz ends up, like I said, pleading guilty to two counts here. 1999 in June.

Barbara's out on bail for the obstruction charge. Yeah. She's out on bail in June. She's set to go on trial June 15th. But before this happens, June 3rd, Jesus Christ, she is arrested here and charged with aggravated assault. Who'd she beat up? Didn't beat anyone up. It's worse than that.

Oh, boy. She and Jenny Pinder, who is John's sister, who's a frequent guest at the Summit County Jail. She's a nut. DeHart and Jenny are sitting around drinking at the ranch house here on the Pinder property when apparently, I don't know whatinder property when apparently i don't know what the fuck happened they don't know they got in an argument about something about the literally an argument about the ranch they said and like what to do on it so de hart takes out a handgun from

her purse and starts loading it uh loads it up and points it at jenny right at her head and told her that she was going to kill her uh so she says i'm gonna fucking kill you it was in the middle of the house she's pointing her gun at her so apparently one of the ranch hands came in and interceded and wrestled this gun out of her hand and uh jenny called the police and she was arrested and released on ten thousand dollars bail my fuck so this is some trashy shit going on here so pinder's trial comes up in uh 2000 obviously here uh 2000 ruiz is a star witness yeah as you might imagine here the uh jesus christ man the defense attorney's whole their whole case is that ruiz is blaming pinder for a crime that he did all on his own obviously

he killed both of them drugged them out there blew blew them up, bulldozed, cleaned up, had all this shit on his own for no reason. He's a scoundrel, James. Well, he is a mafioso, wife-beating, dog-killing, whatever the hell. He's done everything. He has. And it all escalates. Did I mention he has a magic carpet that he can fly around on? He's a really dangerous guy.

You never know. So Christ almighty. And he's planning, he's in that magic carpet, gave him an idea. And that is to fly planes into the World Trade Centers. Did you know that that was his idea? Ruiz is a mastermind. A Mexican named Phil. Named Phil. So, yeah, he says, quote, I never killed anybody.

That's Ruiz while he's testifying. He says, I never killed anybody. He does admit his history of using and selling drugs. And he does admit that he often carried an AK-47. You know, that's tough. But he denied that he had beaten his wife, which they said. He denied that he shot a bunch of neighborhood dogs or threatened to kill a number of his

neighbors, which are all accusations against him. He threatened to kill his neighbors who were, I guess, upset that he was killing dogs. They generally get upset by that he was killing dogs. Right. Which, you know. They generally get upset by that. People are sensitive. And when they have a dog, if you kill it, they get a little upset. It's a weird thing. The kids are going to be upset tomorrow morning. It's a very, very difficult thing here.

Now, then they get Melissa Coles on the stand, who is DeHart's daughter. And she is very damning. Her testimony is quite damning we'll just say here uh she testifies about several conversations she had in her mother with her mother while they were in idaho uh well pinder and de hart so she says that uh uh jesus christ that that john told her mother that he admitted to killing the people on the ranch uh that claimed

that uh this is what the mother told her de hart told her daughter that uh that she and pinder washed and vacuumed the car disposed of bloody hair and scalp gross they disposed of a piece of scalp with hair oh my god that's disgusting mel Melissa also said that he, that John, I'm sorry, that Jesus Christ, confusing. De Hart burned Pinder's clothes, so she was helping, and threw the murder weapon into a river. So she helped with that. Like, that's the obstruction charge. She also said that Barbara stated that her, she tells her daughter that her, quote, soon-to-be stepdaddy. Oh, gross.

Soon-to-be stepdaddy. This is a grown woman. You don't need to call. You know what I'm saying? It's not an eight-year-old. Right. Your soon-to-be stepdaddy. She's a grown-up.

Soon-to-be stepdaddy is a murderer and that she and Pinder were just like Bonnie and Clyde. Except for they robbed banks. Except for they made a profit off of it they just didn't kill white trash ranch hands and then blow them up and fucking hide pieces of them so uh they're just like bonnie and clyde she was saying like isn't that cute oh we're just like bonnie and clyde boy i'll tell you uh also this uh her daughter said that her mother uh later said that uh jesus christ said that others had planted evidence in pinder's truck because she said she cleaned up the truck earlier and she said i only cleaned up

the truck because people planted evidence in it yeah because there's this other guy you know the mexican and he was playing a whole bunch of fucking evidence wiping a bloody scalp all over the window you know how it goes putting fucking thumbprints on things you know how people do you know those fucking mexicans they're shifty you can't trust them can't trust them i tell you jesus christ man uh she just wanted to make sure to clean the evidence up so so he would not get in trouble for something he didn't do because she can't stand by for that there i mean jesus christ uh so yeah they they uh after the the killing here halloween they arrived at uh they arrived up in idaho uh they visited with uh de hart's family and then they left uh they left a family member's trailer to go to a local bar to watch her brother play in a band which sounds real depressing a

rural idaho bar band performance imagine that the drums aren't quite like i have to be murdered nobody's fucking paid to get in none of those there's no cover beer and wine there's no hard alcohol those dudes get paid in beer yeah 100 absolutely we got an open bar tab it's up to 75 after that we got to pay for but 75 we get pretty fucked up cheap beer here so uh yeah so apparently during that trip he brought some of his uh shit to idaho and he was also discussing how to get a cage to transport the lion so he was idaho boy he wants to move to idaho with her he figures if he just moves to idaho this will all just go away it's just a couple of methie ranch hands no one cares that much he's just going to go away and transport a lion across state lines oh yeah yeah fuck it isn't that illegal too

i don't know i would assume anything you do with a lion is illegal anything at all apart from paying to see it at the zoo yeah outside of that it's fucking illegal any other lion yeah you shouldn't be able to keep it no pet it no play with it move it yeah eat it kill it i fed one through a chain link that's fine that was supervised by a zookeeper i hope several trained personnel uh nearby it's horrible it's fucking terrible so uh yeah he oh my god uh john testifies really he's got no other choice he's got everybody saying what he did he's got to come up and say i you know it was the mexican right he's got to blame him it was phil so uh yeah they the prosecution's trying to basically paint him as a desperate person reduced to blaming Ruiz and all that sort of thing.

They paint Ruiz as a victim, which is pretty silly, too. That whole thing's very fucking silly. It wasn't his idea, but he went right along with it and did everything. He was bulldozing and blowing shit up. I bet he had fun trying to blow things up. We'll put it that way. I don't understand how it went from shrinking heads to blowing up bodies how small can you i'll make that fucking thing disappear i'll bet you sober up before you execute drunk plans put it that way jesus uh yes so ruiz is

the star witness after he testified now the cross-examination here of pinder uh they the way they do this is they try to ask him, why did you place so much personal trust in Ruiz here? If it's all him and he had access to everything and could do all this, why would you give him all this? And he says, Pinder says that he feared him. He feared

Ruiz. And they said, quote, what you're trying to tell us is that you hired a drug smuggling, gun running, wife beating dog killer who knew how to use explosives. And he said that's what i'm saying that seemed like a good ranch hand his linkedin came very highly he had references i'm telling he had impeccable references what do you want from me listen i didn't have zip recruiter that's right there you go so he uh fuck man he testified earlier that pinder had given him the keys to everything on the ranch and that uh pinder had treated him differently from other ranch hands

paying him in cash and all that uh the prosecutor said quote he was your personal employee and pinder said you could put it that way uh so they also questioned pinder about previous testimony that uh he had given because he testified that he gave Ruiz the murder weapon shortly before. Like, here's a gun you could have to do whatever to walk around the ranch. And then Ruiz took it upon himself to go use that and kill these people. He maintained he knew nothing about the murders, nothing about the destruction of the bodies until after they occurred. Until he was found. He was told then he did admit that he helped clean up the scattered remains of the bodies until after they occurred, until he was told then. He did admit that he helped clean up the scattered remains of the couple because he was afraid that Ruiz and others and the Mexican mafia might kill him.

That was his excuse there. So June 2001 is the verdict for John here. It's on 11 counts, as we've talked about. He is found after just a few hours really not too much time he is found guilty of everything yeah every last fucking they said is there anything we got a couple more things you think we should you missed something you missed a couple charges we have i think we could i think we could convict him on more we really do he's kind of an asshole we don't like this guy uh so sentencing comes around uh pinder's attorney here calls five character witnesses including pinder's parents who are

pretty respected people and they love him and they love him to death uh pinder also spoke he told the jurors and the families of the victims that he was innocent he didn't do the please i you know i'm sorry he just said i'm innocent this is ridiculous uh i will fight to overturn my conviction i didn't kill anybody uh there blah blah blah blah uh he will he's sentenced here uh now here comes the sentencing they give him you sir they fuck off he is sentenced to life in prison with the possibility of parole oh he's got possibility of parole. He's given credit for time served for about two years. He's been in the joint there, but it's a pretty good.

It's a pretty good conviction. Even with that two years, he won't be eligible eligible for parole for 38 years. Wow. So 2039 is his earliest parole eligibility where he'll be in his 80s. That lion's going to be dead. That's going to be lion is long fucking gone. Now, Glenn Tanner, who's the brother of the Tanner guy there,

said, quote, I'm happy. That's all I can say. This is all I've wanted. So that's good. The other family member said they heard no remorse from Pinder. They didn't understand that exactly.

He's given other sentences but they're they're to run concurrently here uh he gets six years to life for aggravated burglary one to 15 years for evidence tampering and one to 15 years for possession of an explosive device so he's got all that it's complicated but yeah he's gonna going to be... 2039 is his earliest way to get out. Ruiz, on the other hand, is sentenced to five years to life, which ends up being two five-year consecutive terms is what they do for him. Five and five is what he gets with the possibility of a transfer to Mexico. There's a possibility in there if he can fucking apply to get the fuck out. fuck out apply to get the fuck out but i think that he has to go to jail in mexico

as part of it which i think you want to stay in utah at that point serve it here yeah yeah yeah that's yeah i would say that here so uh while this is all going on uh there's some rumors going around uh here in about 2003 of more bodies possibly what popping up here uh pinder is in jail obviously but the sheriff tells the newspaper that when they began searching for rex and rex and june there flood and tanner in october 98 98 they received several calls saying that uh two missing people were in the trunk of a car buried on the pinder ranch uh and that's not those two obviously because they were blown up that's a fascinating story yes that's what they were thinking at first what happened to those two is they must mean those two then they found them

all blown up and they're like okay well who's buried in a fucking car on the ranch that's another problem here uh he said that uh uh they they found they followed up and the callers were referring to two young women brought from arizona to entertain at a party at the ranch that came up missing. Yeah. Fucking traveling stripper. But yeah. So, yeah, they were they were end up missing after that. They were told investigators that these two women were allegedly injected with a tranquilizer that Pinder used on the lion.

He used lion tranquilizer and put in the trunk and buried is put in the trunk of a car and buried is what they said. That's buried alive. That's buried alive in a trunk. Yeah. After you've been. Yeah, that's crazy shit. So the officer said they're going to look into those rumors. Obviously, you know, that's. That's a wild accusation.

It's a pretty heavy accusation. But that was coming out before he was even convicted. That was coming out while they were searching for Tanner and Flood. This is in the first week of the investigation. People are like, are you looking for those two girls? They're like, what are you talking about? The two girls who came that are buried in the fucking ranch. And they're like, we're looking for these two.

What's up with these two? So, yeah, shit gets gets a little uh dicey there now they are two missing girls who are in a profession of traveling to do sex work is probably not the safest thing to do i would say so who knows but still may not be there they may be somewhere else it could be at the next party yeah uh so now a bunch of weapons were seized from the Idaho home of Barbara DeHart. That was Pinder took up there. They were Pinder's property. They when they drove to Idaho here.

Now, DeHart's husband, who's still her husband at this point, tells police that DeHart and Pinder came to his home after that and left a bag of firearms at the house. That's what the cops ended up finding. He told the police that his wife told him, quote, I hope they don't find the vehicle with the two bodies in it, which is buried on the ranch. So that came in, too. This was locally a bunch of shit. And then this came from Idaho. A woman that's leaving her husband for another man tells that man some incriminating shit. shit hey me and this new guy that i left you for a month ago we're coming up here

uh here's a bag of weapons we're gonna leave and gee i sure hope the cops don't find those two people buried on his ranch have a good one and she expected him to hold that close to the best it's gonna be yeah she had her fucking yes yes answers yes answers clearly yes uh so then they interviewed her daughter who ended up testifying in court later on, and that went from there. They ended up in this bag. They found a Remington rifle, two pistols, a maroon tote bag there, and they are holding on to these items. A Remington rifle, two pistols, and a Pierre Card that's a nice one to be held in the sheriff's evidence locker in possible connection with other murders that they're interested in now 2003 pinder wants

a new trial he says not only did i not kill two people i didn't kill four people and i didn't even get a fair trial for the two you charged me with he's saying that there is newly discovered evidence here he said the evidentiary hearing was fucked up. He presents several newly discovered witnesses. One is a Joey Silva, who's an inmate who spent time with Ruiz. One is David Brunier, the one ranch hand that helped. It's his brother, Robert. And one is a woman named Christy Barnes.

Each of them testified in one way or another that Ruiz and David Brunier were actually the killers, not Pinder. The district court found none of the new witnesses credible. The court expressly found each of them to be seriously lacking in trustworthiness. And what they said when they denied the motion here, Pinder filed for this post-conviction relief here that he filed for. After that, he says he brings two more affidavits later on, saying that two more inmates that Ruiz spent time with, a Bo Heaps and Danny Alvarez. They said that Alvarez put an affidavit out saying that Ruiz told him that a white guy committed the murders, but that Pinder had nothing to do with it there. He was talking about the other one.

Heaps, the other one, the other inmate, Heaps, his affidavit said that Heaps met Ruiz in prison and that Ruiz told him the same thing, that another guy, not Pinder, were responsible for the murders. He and this other guy. guy not pinder were responsible for the murders he and this other guy so uh three of these uh defense witnesses come forward obviously with all this horse shit uh these brunier guy the brunier guy is the one that you would think okay that's his brother this is very interesting but they say that brunier's changed his story several times the brother he is incredible and they also find that he had an axe

to grind because his brother had turned him in on firearms charges the year before so he's basically mad at his brother right and he's telling him that so that's amazing he uh the judge said that he found brunier the brother brunier's testimony quote flabbergasting preposterous and bizarre wow none of that says credible. Right. I don't hear the word credible in there ever. Flabbergasting, preposterous, and bizarre. Wow.

He also doubted Joey Silva, the other witness. He called him a career criminal who claimed that Ruiz confided that when they were in jail, he told him that Pinder only helped to get rid of the bodies. That's what it is. Now, his other thing here, Pinder's other thing, his claim says that the state violated his due process rights by knowingly presenting perjured testimony from Welch and falsifying evidence concerning the 911 recording of the fight between Ruiz and Harris it was this girlfriend he says that

Pinder provides an affidavit to back up the Welch claim and the 911 tape, this is amazing he submits a lengthy expert analysis of the 911 recordings there the analysis concluded the 911 call recordings were not pristine in an and

had some way been altered and tampered with by exporting and editing uh which could just be to enhance sound because we export and edit on this show and uh it doesn't mean that's not what we recorded it doesn't mean that we didn't say what we said uh so he said these files could not be deemed reliable as what their experts said uh Pinder concluded the police had altered the recordings of the 911 call to make the fight appear to have happened the next day rather than the day before. And that the state used this fabricated data as a baseline in order to coax witnesses at trial to believe that all the events happened on Sunday rather than Saturday. So that's what they're saying. They're saying they're doing this to screw up the timeline and skew it

and that sort of shit. Now, the whole discovery process lasted forever on this whole thing. Every fucking thing this guy does is a pain in the ass because he's rich. So his family gives him money for lawyers. He has fucking private investigators that investigate all this type of shit.

He's affluent. That's what happens when affluent people even no matter how stupid you are right you can hold shit up for a long time uh yeah so they they do judge that he did get a fair trial uh there and that he will not get a new fucking trial the judge found no merit to the claims law enforcement uh botched the investigation withheld discovery evidence or altered any tapes or anything else the court finds from the evidence all evidence offered at trial and offered at numerous evidentiary hearings about the trial uh of rex tanner and june flood uh was party to those murders blah blah blah 53 page ruling saying go fuck yourself you don't know what you're talking about that was expensive that was a lot yeah i'm sure i can't imagine what this is all cost to his parents like think about

that oh god jesus fucking so much money but if they're willing to help him buy a fucking lion that's the problem that's the thing i guess they gave him a lion and a ranch they just want to shut him up i feel like so 2005 he takes his motion uh for retrial all the way to the Utah Supreme Court. My word. There, the judge denies his motion for a retrial, finding that the new witnesses were not credible, and he upholds the 2005 ruling and tells him to fucking take a hike. So 2006, more post-conviction relief, more affidavits from all the inmates and all that sort of shit uh claims are rejected they tell him to go fuck himself he appeals that good lord go back to that october

2008 ruiz is paroled oh look at this he's no mexico no nothing his parole sunshine so he's out uh i don't know he did a lot that's a lot that's he did way too much to have that little amount of time yeah man i get like i get i get the night of if he felt like he had no choice or some shit like that. But you asked for two. You asked for two. But then the next day, you didn't wait till he fell asleep and then run away and go to the cops. No.

You stuck around and then went back to bulldoze more body parts. You didn't even hide in the woods for three days. No, you made a Timex joke. Right. Like, that's pretty. You crazy fuck. It's pretty impressive here so 2011 john and his parents are suing the state for confiscated things from the arrest uh it's robert and virginia pinder they file a lawsuit seeking the return of 14 rifles nine shotguns three handguns two crossbows and a large but

unspecified amount of ammunition. That's a lot. Why do you have all that? That's a fuckload. I think I've got a lot of guns, and I don't have anywhere near that. That's a lot. That's a lot of guns. They're also seeking other items seized from the ranch,

including family photographs and shit like that. Wow. They have to declare in court whether each item sought by the Pinders was disposed of or remains in the sheriff's evidence locker. Uh, many of the weapons belong to these people. A lot of the times this shit will get released back,

but others believe that, uh, at least one gun on the Pinders list, a nine millimeter pistol was destroyed because it had been illegally altered for rapid fire. So they destroyed that otherwise they said they had everything else uh the sheriff's department though uh the judge ends up dismissing this for without prejudice for lack of subject uh lack of jurisdiction and they said

they failed to to fulfill the notice of claim requirement basically they didn't file their paperwork right and in a timely manner you fucked up not yeah also this is even worse though besides that not only do you not really have the right to it you didn't file your shit right the duchesne county sheriff travis mitchell told a federal judge his agency must continue to keep three of these weapons and the pierre cardin tote bag because first pinder is still seeking to have the murder convictions overturned so this is evidentiary shit and second items are being held in connection with ongoing investigations of at least two

additional cold murder cases so they think they like Pinder for more cases for more murders and they fucking they try for years to connect him to other murders and they can't connect shit they never connect it but they murders and they can't connect shit they never connect it but they like know that he's done shit this isn't the first time you don't

do that first that wasn't your first yeah we'll fucking blow that's like you got bored killing people right you know and you're like i'll blow them up i buried them i've done this i've done that blowing up isn't your first idea i'll just put a bunch of fucking dynamite in and explode these people bananas connection's a bananas connection. Imagine that shit. No, I don't want to. Well, imagine you got it. Okay, let's play fantasy for a minute here.

You see me. I'm leaning back in my chair. I'm sitting around a ranch. I got a beer in my hand. We're all talking. There's beans flowing like crazy, and I'm sitting here going, man, I got it all right now. I got this ranch uh i got a lion yeah you know what i'm saying like you don't have a lion you do have a lion i have a lion i have

trucks i have caves full of explosives when i was nine if you told me someday you're gonna have a lion in a cave full of explosives i would have said you know what that's all i need but i want more right now i really do you know what i needrunken head. I feel like a shrunken human head will seriously enhance my life. Take that collection to the next level. I feel like I'm going to feel more fulfilled as a person. People are going to be impressed. People are going to be impressed. I'll be a better human being for it.

And I'm going to get so much pussy. If I can get it small enough, I'm going to hang it for my rear view. I like that. No one's going to believe it's real. They'll think it's fake anyway, so I can get away with it, I'm going to hang it from my rear view. I like that. No one's going to believe it's real. They'll think it's fake anyway, so I can get away with it. Did you pick that up? Oh, my God. Where's that torso with the head attached to it?

I'm surprised. That's the weird thing. It never came back up. Yeah. He saw it and walked away. Why didn't they find that? Or at least have it in documents. Yeah.

Later on, they end up. Yeah, they found. They did find it? They find body parts. Yeah. Oh, later on, they end up. Yeah, they found. They did find it? They find body parts. Yeah. They found heads. But that one. They found like a finger over here and a fucking.

They found all sorts of shit. Yeah. You don't miss a torso with a head attached to it. Yeah, that's kind of what stands out. It's on there. They go, holy shit. Look at that. Well, looky here.

He's looking at us, this guy. You found teeth. Look what I found. Whoa. A whole fucking head. So, yeah. So, they keep that for that reason. So, a whole fucking head. So, yeah, so they keep that for that reason. So that's not great.

2015, John and his parents sue the sheriff again. Again. They want more. Damn it. They want their shit. It's seeking the return of the firearms and the guns and the ammunition. Now they say it's wrongfully taken. They said that it should be given.

The police departments they they usually do this if if after a while none of the weapons are used in a crime or they can be shown definite ownership the problem is is there's an ownership issue does this belong to john does this belong to robert right and it's that sort of thing so robert wants it when robert said he wants it back they say well it belongs to john and when john wants it back they go well it belongs to robert to John. And when John wants it back, they go, well, it belongs to Robert. So they won't give it to fucking either of them is basically the way it's working. And then they also say, hey, by the way, we're also working on other shit. Yeah.

So they're going through all this shit. The court statutes of the whole thing, they go through this whole shit with the weapons and they don't get their weapons back, basically, in the end here. Now, in 2015, John's appeal, this is the appeal for the last denial of his shit. So here, the Utah Supreme Court's decision is upheld and he's fucked, basically. They tried to argue more they tried to just argue more newly discovered evidence testimony they keep getting every year they find more testimony from inmates i don't

know how many inmates this ruiz they claim that he told but they have found like 10 people that he's going around telling details of this crime too i feel like they're paying these people or some shit like that who the fuck knows They talk a lot in jail, though. I watch jailbirds on Netflix. They talk through the toilets. Yeah, people talk like a motherfucker, but this guy is just telling everybody intimate details of this crime. The court agreed with everything, and they said that this court agreed with the Utah Supreme Court that all these witnesses were seriously wanting in credibility. The court also said that some of the witnesses' claims were inconsistent with absolutely established

and known and undisputed facts. One of the witnesses was called by a judge as, quote, a bamboozler and professional scam artist whose testimony could not be trusted. Hell yeah. That's amazing. I want to hang out with that guy he's been legally labeled a bamboozler by a fucking federal judge that is fantastic you sir are a bamboozler so uh now the there's been a private investigator named paul ingles working

for the pinder family for all these years now. They ask him about this. What do you feel about this since you've done the most investigating? His answer is, quote, framed full on. Oh, boy. That's what he says.

Framed. Because I was paid to say it. Yeah, he said falsified evidence was used to convict him. It's just that simple. The 911 tapes were altered. They clearly were altered. There is undeniable evidence

by experts that show they were altered that's fine i don't care that doesn't mean he didn't kill those people and blow them up that's all he said he said falsified evidence it's that simple 911 tapes were altered terrific you might be legally correct that that is a piece of evidence that legally whatever but when you have a mountain what they do is they weigh it against the other shit yeah and if there was like two pieces of evidence and one of them was this 911 tape and they said that's definitely altered, they might take a step back and go, holy shit, that's the only other thing corroborating this.

But when everyone on earth, including your girlfriend, your girlfriend's daughter, everybody in jail, the whole fucking wing, your parents, other ranch hands hands the fucking bulldozer people anyone who went to the lake on a sunday afternoon everybody's finding torsos it's enough already too much it's too fucking much at that point it's enough uh so he says the state has not challenged that on a factual basis they have not offered any evidence to say that's untrue they didn't they just said it doesn't fucking matter if it's true or not we We don't care. That's all they said. So the attorney general here claims that his attorneys are just recycling old claims. They said when it comes to factual disputes, the petitioner simply can't rely on evidentiary disputes from trial. He just keeps fucking putting up bullshit. The claim that the 911 tapes were altered is completely unsupported and everything like that. They said the standard is a reasonable probability of a different result, which I don't understand even what that means. But never mind.

The judge said that they would issue a written ruling, but basically go fuck your mother is what he says. Now, the family is acting like pinder is the murder victim the whole family acts like john pinder they they say like he's been taken away from us they they say exactly what people say when someone's been murdered uh they're the mother the father the sister were at a hearing and afterwards they said that you know he's innocent uh jenny pinder said her brother is a rancher a farmer and a college graduate and afterwards they said that he's innocent. Jenny Pinder said her brother is a rancher, a farmer, and a college graduate, and he'll be missed. He's missed by us. He's a real person. She said, quote, it's been terrible. It's been a very trying time on our family.

We miss John. We are a very close family. She says that they're hopeful a new hearing will be granted and that this evidence will acquit her brother. that they're hopeful a new hearing will be granted and that this evidence will acquit her brother. Rex Tanner's brother, Milton, on the other hand, he said that he suspected John Pinder was his brother's killer as soon as his brother went missing and never doubted he killed him for a minute. He said, quote, this should be behind us.

John did it. I agree with the jury 100%. This is another wasted time, another wasted day here. So that's how that goes. They continued to shell out fucking money in this guy's defense. How many times? Okay, let's start right now. How many times in his fucking life do you think his parents bailed him out of shit?

How many times did he get away with everything he's ever done? He's in his 40s. And we've talked about cocaine and fucking lions and all this crazy shit. In his teenage years, how many times did he fucking wrap a car on a telephone pole being drunk and down? How many broken windows are there in Utah? Broken windows and shoplifting and got pulled over with a bag of weed in his pocket. How fucking often did they get him out of goddamn trouble?

Everything. He must have been just horrible. I can't. Fuck. At one point in their lives, too, they held that little bastard in a blanket. Yeah. Smiling their asses off. And then he turned into this.

Having no idea how much trouble he was going to cause them. And not just him. All of his fucking siblings. Everybody. Those two are shit parents. Oh, they're shit parents. Yeah. They say the brother and sister are frequent residences, frequent visitors of the county jail uh that's not great terrible parents my family nobody ever says that we're frequent visitors of the county jail at least that's not good i got

three siblings one that i talked to none of none of them are no none of them are frequent not frequent that's that's bad punch card at the jail i love them the cops no we know that family been out there many times like that's a bad thing yeah you just picture him as that dick that's a punch card at the jail i love them the cops know we know that family been out there many times like that's a bad thing yeah you just picture him as that dick that was like when he was like 12 he had like a car and rode it around the ranch and shit and like it's one of those kids who just never listen asshole asshole basically yeah it's complete asshole because he probably had very little supervision i bet too that's what it sounds like dad's been busy with 13 different companies. And he's been out and allowed to.

And mom's out there getting her nails done and doing whatever a successful wife does. Not paying attention to them. That's for damn sure. In the 60s and 70s, too, if you lived in a rural area and your kid said, I'm going to go outside, you'd be like, good. That's what's good for them. Yeah, they're not watching that stupid TV. Did you watch The Sandlot? The kid screams through the door, Mom, I'm going to go play some ball.

That's it. With zero questions. And then he just runs, I'm going to go play some ball. That's it. With zero questions. And then he just runs off. I want to play some ball. That's it. So that's what happened back then. Thankfully, that's what he was really doing. Yeah, he wasn't playing with lions

and murdering people and shit like that. So 2016, Robert Pinder finally dies of old age. Really? At 84. The father, and that kind of dries up the whole investigation. No more words from PIs or anything like that after that. It all just kind of shuts down.

And John Pinder is sitting. He's got about 19 years left to a possibility of parole. He seems like a charmer. I feel like if he makes it that long, they're going to let him out. But, I mean, what are the odds he's going to make it in his 80s? He's had a pretty crazy life. He's a dick. a charmer i feel like if he makes it that long they're gonna let him out yeah uh but i mean what are the odds he's gonna make it in his 80s he's had a pretty crazy life he's a dick he is a dick so he could anything's possible with an asshole that's the fucking thing yeah i feel like that too i'm like he's such a dick he could make it to 90 he could wing it he could totally get by yeah

as long as he stays healthy in there you know what i mean once you're on that once you're on the medication in prison it's pretty much over well if his family has money they can keep his his account full he can get better food he can fucking you know he can his whole life could be better in there but still knows if his dad's checkbook died with him yeah that's the thing who knows he might be on prison rations and yeah it could be over soon we don't know what his family had too because all of his dad's friends said he was a fucking gambler. Not like playing cards. Gambler with business. He was an oil man.

Yeah. Those oil guys are you're either you take risks or yeah, if you want to if you want to come into oil the oil game

and you don't have a ton of money you're not one of these big conglomerates you got to take risks. You got to do the unless you do that, right? Yeah, you go you find the

like Jerry Jones did basically you take chances. You go, we're going to sink this much money into ten holes, and hopefully one of them will hit. Fingers crossed, babe. Fingers crossed. And next thing you know, you own the Cowboys. Or a lion. You never fucking know.

Jesus Christ, man. A shitload of explosives. A shitload of explosives and poop holes and the whole thing's a goddamn loop holes from the poop holes and the whole thing's a fucking mess. What a story. But yeah, that is that's Dushane, Utah, for all the Utah people been asking for an episode. And that is John Pinder and Tanner and Flood and all these fucking to heart. I feel so bad for them.

Brunier and Ruiz. I feel bad for those people, too. What a terrible death. What a terrible way to go. No matter how rough your life is, can't fucking just it's almost worse they were living people out they were living the shit life anyway where they lived in a fucking trailer and did like part-time ranch work and did made meth and shit on the side and all this file a workman's comp claim when a horse kicks you in the fucking leg no and then they're jesus and then they're with a also the brutality the whole thing

like him meeting up with her saying come with me with me, no, and then smashing a woman. She was 59 years old. He smashed a 59-year-old woman in the face of the baseball bat. I get that's not elderly, but have some reverence for her. She's older than him. 59? That's my mom's age. That's what I mean.

I don't want to see my mom hit a baseball bat. No, nobody wants to see a 60-year-old lady smash in the face of the baseball bat and then the dude getting hit in the legs. That's brutal, man. If you like that story, I know what you can do about it. You can get right on iTunes, Apple Podcasts, whatever the hell that is, and you can give us five stars.

That would be excessively helpful. It doesn't matter what you say. You can say you're following instructions, following directions. It's really just to drive us up the charts. It's not for our ego. It doesn't matter to us. You You can say you're following instructions, following directions. It's really just to drive us up the charts. It's not for our ego. It doesn't matter to us. You can't help us, damn it. It matters to us.

It matters, but you can't make it matter more than it does. So you can do that. Also, go to shutupandgivememurder.com, where you can get all of your merchandising things, your pocket robin t-shirts, and all of your tickets, especially to this tour. your pocket Robin t-shirts and all of your tickets, especially to this tour. Like we said, uh, especially,

uh, Orlando, Columbus, Cleveland, San Diego, get those tickets. Now, some of these places,

uh, sellouts are Omaha, Pittsburgh, Kansas city, St. Louis are gone. Uh, we told you to get them fast.

We did. We told you last week and you did. So anybody who went, Oh shit, I was going to get tickets to that. Well, you should have listened to us when we said they're gone. If you're in another city, don't hesitate because those are the Missouri dates are in late October.

And they're sold out. So people are buying these things. I saw Milwaukee and Chicago are filling up soon. They're filling up fast. And they're in Denver. They're in December, not in Denver. We're going to try to get to Denver, too. We're saying after in 2020, it'll probably be Denver, Salt Lake City, shit like that.

Where else? Portland, Boston, New York. Portland, Boston, New York, San Francisco, all of our Sacramento. We're trying to get back there. That was so great. We had such a great time. It's just so hard because it's a very small venue, and it's hard to- Small window of time to book that.

Small window of time, small venue, and it's hard to... Small window of time to book that. Small window of time, small venue, and it's hard to make it financially worthwhile to go there and go off another schedule. It's just difficult with a small venue like that because we don't like to charge crazy prices for tickets. A lot of people will charge... You've seen it. We don't have to name...

$200 for these places. You've seen $100 to go see a live podcast, or even $5555 not a VIP or guaranteed seat just to go in and we can't we just can't charge you that no unless unless I fucking unless I fuck Jimmy on stage it's not going to be worth it I don't think and even that nobody wants to watch that but I'm saying that's about the only thing we could get if we if we fought or fucked or murdered each other be the only way we could get anyone to pay fifty five dollars or one hundred dollars. Even they might be willing to.

But we couldn't charge it. We just can't. What if you just soaked? Yes, that might be nice. We're not a band. We don't have like a fucking we don't have roadies to pay to and shit like that. So it's ridiculous to charge that money. Yeah.

So we try to make it as minimal as possible so everybody can afford to see the show and we want to hang out we want to see everybody and we like doing the live show so definitely definitely do that and uh when you're done doing that when you're done getting your tickets you can oh by the way get your t-shirts before you go we're not selling merch at the shows no we just don't have time to stand there and we can't do it yeah so uh we can't haul mail fucking boxes around the country oh yeah it's just too much so uh if you get your shirts online on threadless there at uh shut up and give me murder.com you can get them right through there and wear them to the damn live shows do that and uh if you want to follow us on social media very easy way to do that it is

at murder small on twitter at small town pod on facebook and at small town murder on instagram we post everything um that we have to tell you but uh we don't bombard you with bullshit we don't put ads up or anything like that uh it's just information about the show so please do that get your tickets now and also now it's that time where we have to thank our favorite people our producers because good lord man i mean they helped we can't do anything without them. So we have to just appreciate them and God damn it. Bow down to our producers right now. You know what, Jimmy?

Hit me with them like you're hitting me with a lion bat. This week's executive producers are Cheryl Dodge. What did I do? You just had a meltdown. Tommy Arsenault. Yes. Jordan Bennett. Leah Gordon.

Thank you. Mark Peralta. Avesvesa avesa braith avasa avasa braith kimberly thomas uh dan with no last name and leslie kidd thank you guys so much yeah thank you producers this week are k with no last name david wittis uh dan smith jacob cobb no zach cobb what jacob what am i doing pull out of your ass, you're my man. I guess I did. Lisa Stevens. Marissa Jack. No, it's Marissa with no last name. No, that's Jack.

Yeah, that's right. It's one person. Marissa Jack. Yeah. Ocean Angel Seaglass. I don't know what that is. I imagine it's boat glass. Is it boat glass?

Look it up. It should be. Look it up. Who makes boat glass? I don't know. Weird. Rana Abshore. Jaw or J-A Nomad. That's what it is. It's not jaw. It's boat glass? I don't know. Weird. Rana Abshore, JAW or JA Nomad.

That's what it is. It's not JAW. It's JA. It's not JAW rule. Stacy Lanktoe, Jenny the Scientist, Leanne Dice. Yeah, it's got to be Dice because like Antonio McDice. Yeah. That's what it is.

Kendra Wright, Michelle with no last name, Greg Dangerfield. Liza. Liza. Is it Lisa? Lisa Silver? Or Liza Silver? One of those. Nicole Johnson. Callie Dixon. Lexi Langley.

Angel Eicher. Jaina Wellhouse. Or Wellhossie. No. Helen. Abandoned ship. Helen Watson. Jerry Oliver.

Shirin Zaida, Megan Conley, Caitlin O'Connor, Christine D'Ruscio, Jade Hughes, Crystal Lamb, Evan Schmoll, Barbara Bowers, Amy Jennings, Andrea, and Sam Powell. They are twins. And Sam said it's her sister's birthday, which would make that your fucking birthday. I would think so. That's bizarre. Unless your mom fucking clamped down real tight for a while. I'm not until tomorrow. Hold on.

I'm holding one back. Bill Blomberg, Mandy with no last name. Paul Such. Christy Quintaliani. Yes, I think that's right. Kristen Quintaliani. Hey. Carly Sills. Gemma Flower. Or Flower.

It is Flower. Timothy Contrell. Alicia Hughes. Leanne Petty. Lael. Lael Cleland. Craig and Paula. Beathrow.

Blathro? I don't know what I wrote. I'm a shitbag. Kelsey Zanzi. Keegan Arndt. Corey J. Weinberg. Nikki Zarnacki. That's what it is.

Hunter Engle. Ted Boley. Shannon Leschewski. Eli Wilterdink, Al Derby, Laurie Calhoun, Sherry Sullivan, Brian Myers, Michelle Kern, Laurel Fista. What is that? It's Fitanto. That's what it is. That's not an S. Mark Pagliuca.

You got all the Italian people coming through, and I can't pronounce shit i'm ruining you yeah we're ruining him i love it chris coleman uh nevin nevin otley uh buddy anderson kristin no chris chris you better uh lindsey parker courtney divan uh melanie tommy ashley marharty no mahar mahaff. Mayhaffey. Fuck. Aaron Parker. Tori Naslin. Aaron McSwinney. Zachary Eggert. Dick Moss. That's fantastic. I like that. Richard Palmer. That's

see? Richard Palmer. Dick Palmer. I like that. Allison Davis. Jennifer with no last name. Laura Yarnell. Kristen Stevensgroff. Emily Kostein. bombs uh allison davis jennifer with no last name laura yarnell uh kristin uh kristin steve uh stevens groff uh emily costein uh amanda hose not like h-o-s-e not you know what i mean yeah lisa jensen donated twice thank you lisa uh megan basler or basler yes uh elizabeth jackman uh mary Elizabeth Jackman, Mary Jo Adcock, John Wyckoff, Chels Myers, Angela Marivelle, Megan McSherry, Tyler Randles, Shauna would know the last name, Emily would know the last name. Emily Campbell. Dan Burley.

Melissa Swigert. Dita Vasquez. Elijah Lamb. Tom Holt. No, Hale. Tom Hawley. Haley. Happy birthday, Aaron Howerton.

It was his birthday, and he donated to us for his birthday, which was very nice. Thank you. Appreciate it. Happy birthday. Drew Shockley. Big Jeffrey. Alicia. No, Alyssa. Alyssa shudell uh matt oh fuck uh me miazga i think that's an eye i think i'm i don't i don't know what i'm dropping your book here i'm sorry man i'm doing my best jesse hartman gary howard

brendan ables chelsea morgan jason fuller anthony canella he donated donated twice. Thanks, Anthony. Wow, thank you. Liz Vasquez. She donated again. Travis DeArment. David Albert or Albury. I think that's a Y. I think so. Corey Weinberg. Again, thank you. Ashley Veo.

Eric Langenacker. Justin Miller. Nick Gurr. That was tough. Jesus. Nick, you got a fucking brutal name. Kayleen Kirsch. Yes. Tracy Renninger. Thomas name. Kayleen Kirsch.

Yes. Tracy Renninger. Thomas Smith. Lee Kuhn. Margie. No, Kuhns. No. Is that a Z?

What did I? Kuhn. I think it's an E. Margie Kunze. Katie Leonick. Callie Shinkunas. Magdalena. Magdalena Leonardis.

No. Leonardowitz. That's it. Kristen Walker. Lisa Jensen. That's the one that donated twice. Abdul Jan. Mith Sadiq. leonardus no leon leonard leonardowitz that's it hey kristen walker uh lisa jensen that's one donated twice abdul jan uh myth sadiq uh tabith no that's tabitha damn it sadiq and then i've got to go to tabitha so tabitha lily uh michael ingram janice hill robin skelly mark foster james aselta andrea reynolds uh glenn brian ely ely that's a tough one steven rude uh dennis no it's denise no that is dennis dennis gans gansyuk

uh jamie kirby uh allison morris riva miller cc clausen tyler gwil britney whitehill kaylee no hayley ellis damn it uh aaron parker james martyr kim grell jude kendall Whitehill, Haley Ellis, Aaron Parker, James Marder, Kim Grell, Jude Kendall, Brendan Ables, Ryan Shank, Bjorn Keokuvan, Paul Rouest, Teresa Manzo-Stratman, Peter Rayner, Candace Kennedy sent some Girl Scout cookies to yeah thank you over in the uk thanks for doing that and she didn't ask for any money she just did it because that's so sweet they don't get girl scout cookies that's awesome and thank you to every patreon supporter you guys are the fucking best thank you everybody from the bottom of our fucking dead hearts we appreciate you guys so much for everything you got the reason this thing works you really are thanks for

everything and thanks for buying these tickets, too. Thanks for wanting to come see us. It fucking blows us away. When we see shows in late October in Missouri, which we've never been to, sold out. That's just fucking blows us away. People from every city wanting to make sure that you have a nice time there. That's the other thing, too. Yeah.

Yeah. That's the other thing, too. Yeah. People always try to help me out with weed and shit like that. You guys are the goddamn best. We do fucking appreciate everything you do for us and everything like that, man. Oh, yes, do bring that for him. Yeah, do bring weed with you.

That's always fun. And also, people have asked about the meet and greets a lot at the shows. We do our best. We're going to do our best. There's some of these venues that uh there's a couple that are like a thousand seats and we we can't we can't say we're gonna meet everybody because we did that with one of those last time in chicago and we felt it wasn't even about us the staff man the staff had been working all night and that we had to make we made these poor people

i want the security guy grabbed a chair at one point just sat down because he just couldn't do it anymore i mean we can't do that to people we just can't so uh we're gonna have to don't want to do that to you guys and we don't want you guys yeah people stood online for two hours and you don't dude there's come on what are we that we're not the president of anything you don't fucking wait online for two hours you're the president of this show we've we've never cured anything we're not the president of anything we've done nothing important that would make you want to fucking meet us. It's bananas. We appreciate the shit out of it, but we can't make you stand there like that.

We can't make the staff stand there, so we're going to have to have some kind of limit. There's a happy medium somewhere. We don't want to... Medium? I don't know what I said. Yeah, medium. We don't want it to just limit it to the VIP people with the seats. So we're trying to figure out how to do it. And that's in a bigger venue if you maybe jimmy will go up we're

going to this bar go over there and maybe that'll be i don't know man we'll figure it out but we're going to try to meet as many people as we possibly can and hang out with you guys and do all of that shit and where could they find you if they want to hang out jimmy you can find me at wisman sucks w-h-i-s-m-a-n sucks on twitter instagram and snapchat and also too with these shows coming up and the venues i don't know where the fuck bars are near there if you know of a nice place near let me know and i'm i'll do research i'm not just gonna yeah yeah don't just send me an address and expect me to be there no i'll do my best what about you where they can where can they tell you where they're gonna bring you weed you can find me at jimmy p is funny uh you can do that or copy and paste my last name from the show description

and yes you should bring weed i highly suggest that because i'll tell you what if you're a strange person in a strange place uh weed is less easy to find than a bar very difficult yeah you can't just google that now you can't so unless i'm in one of a few certain states which will be in a couple of them yeah uh then i have to uh depend on others on you yes so and others too if we know anybody but we appreciate every fucking thing you guys do for us thank you so much everybody and until next week everybody it's been our pleasure Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today.

Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.