Small Town Murder - #130 - I Killed The Devil... You're Welcome in Jackson, Michigan

Episode Date: August 1, 2019

This week, in Jackson, Michigan, a seemingly serene couple owns a pizza/taco restaurant, they go on vacations together, and just seem like the perfect couple. And they were, until one of them goes missing, and their family wants answers. When they finally get those answers, they weren't exactly what the family was looking for, as one of the strangest, most brutal murder scenes we've ever heard of is found by police. But what caused this? Brain surgery? Weed? Or was this just a legitimate case of someone, actually killing the devil? It's a disaster!Along the way, we find out that Boyz II Men still has some living members, that some things just can't be blamed on weed, and that certain things shouldn't be prepared in a restaurant kitchen!!Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman New episodes every Thursday! Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com & use our email: [e-mail] Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports! Follow us on... twitter.com/@murdersmall facebook.com/smalltownpod instagram.com/smalltownmurder Also, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Jackson, Michigan, things seem serene for a pizza place owning couple until a blood clot, some weed, and a mysterious white box raise suspicions with the neighbors. Welcome to Small Town Murder. hello everybody and welcome back to small town murder yay yay indeed jimmy yay indeed my name

is james petra gallo i'm here with my co-host i am jimmy wisman thank you so much for joining us this week on another crazy, crazy, crazy edition of Small Town Murder. It's coming hard and fast here. This is a wild one. We're going to have a ball with this one because it's really, really weird. Quick little bit of house cleaning. Thank you guys for all of your reviews this week on Apple Podcasts, that purple icon there.

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or directions or something. We understand. It's not for our ego. You can't fix us with your words. We appreciate your sentiments, though. Thank you for everything. Go to shutupandgivememurder.com. Very important there where you can get tickets to all of your live shows tomorrow night if you're here and listening to shut up and give me murder.com yes very important there

where you can get tickets to all of your live shows tomorrow night if you're here listening to this the day it came out uh tomorrow night on august 2nd we will be in columbus ohio followed by cleveland on august 3rd i don't remember the venues but you look them up i'm sure ohio theater in cleveland i think it's the davidson ah in columbus i believe so that's right yeah there we go and it charred my memory. Is it Joanne? Joanne Davidson. Yeah, that's what it is. Look at us helping each other. Look at that. This is why we're a good team, Jimmy. This is why

our live shows are good. So yeah, come out, get some tickets to that. There's lots of shows after that. Next two weeks after that, we got Omaha, which is sold out, sorry, and very close to sold out is Minneapolis. So get your tickets now. I think it's on the 15th or 16th or something like that. So do that.

All those other shows are out there. Get your tickets now. We're going to have a blast at these shows. We cannot wait. If you want to be a hero, one of our producers who we talk about at the end of the show, very, very easy to do that. Extremely easy.

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It's years, yeah. So if you have not listened, please listen to Crime and Sports. You don't have to like sports. It's almost better that you don't like sports because we're making fun of these guys pretty hard. So it's good stuff. This week, we're sure Adam Pac-Man Jones will be hunting us down to murder us. We will end up on our own show.

If he doesn't know, he's an arugula connoisseur. Apparently. That's what I said. Wikipedia does not lie. Wikipedia agrees with me now. Thank you, guys. We love our audience. This is wonderful.

The greatest. So, thank you for that. And quick disclaimer, of course, quick disclaimer, this is a comedy podcast. It's a comedy show. We're going to talk about

horrible murder. Yes, that's true. All the facts are real and everything like that, but we're going to make some jokes as well because we're comedians and otherwise this show wouldn't be that fun right you know it would be it would be murder porn which is not what we do we have fun with it we try to make it a little more palatable with well that's what it is some of the some some shows out there no names mentioned no names needed some of the shows are very they they want to give you every last, they want to bathe in the details. It's very dark.

And it's dark. And that's fine if that's what people like, but that's not what we're into. Yeah, I mean, we'll tell you the details, but we'll also try to lighten it up around it. But what we don't do is we don't make fun of the victims or the victims' families because we're assholes, but we're not scumbags. There you go. That's how it works. See, we make fun of other things. Small towns, police forces,

stupid lawyers, murderers. Silly lifestyles. There's plenty of stuff to make fun of in the world without making it too weird. So if that sounds good to you, we're going to have a blast. We can promise you that.

And if that doesn't sound good to you, if true crime and comedy should never go together, well, you should probably go now. Run for the hills now unsubscribe because there will be jokes i can promise you that and so that's fine there will be jokes and blood and blood so we don't want to hear anybody bitching later on and saying oh you know there was they made jokes and writing bad reviews we don't need that go now let's we'll shake hands part ways friends have a good one there you go but for everybody else who's going to have a good time, I want you to stand up.

I want you to hang out of your car window, shout it across the gym and scare the hell out of everybody. Shout, shut up and give me murder. Let's do this. It's going to trip, Jimmy. I'd love it. What do you say? Let's take off. We'll be in Ohio.

We're traveling so much. We may as well do another. Let's do it. We are going this week all the way to Michigan. Look at us. Jackson, Michigan, to be specific. Michigan. I don't know much about Jackson other than what I've studied here, other than I'm sure

the roads are terrible. Yeah. Because, good God. It's bananas. We were in Detroit. You might as well, it might as well be the woods. Right. How bad the roads are. I've gone off-roading and had to well. You might. It might as well be the woods. Right. The way how bad the roads are.

I've gone off roading and had to be less fucking bumpy. It is hilarious. They make all the cars there and you can't fucking drive them because your roads are beat to shit. They're beat up pretty bad here. And it's no wonder why their cars are pieces of shit, too, because the roads are garbage. It's the wall. You can't help it.

You make all the parts. Fix your cars, too. I would drive a 1987 Oldsmobile Cutlass Sierra if I lived there, because who cares? It's going to be destroyed in three days anyway. I would never buy a new car. I would lift it. Or you could lift it. On big tires.

Well, you're just going to have a tire and a big hole, and you're sticking up in the air. So, Jackson, Michigan. It's in south-central Michigan. It's about an hour and 15 minutes to detroit about three hours and 20 minutes to chicago and 40 minutes to webster township which is episode 88 our last michigan episode october third of last year holy shit we're coming on back to michigan it's in jackson county zip code 49201 area code 517 it's 11 square You know, whatever medium-sized town. It's funny.

It doesn't have mottos so much as nicknames. And it's known as Prison City. Really? So that seems to be, yeah, which is pretty fucking funny. That's pretty amusing. How many prisons it got? Well, let's talk about how the prisons got there. We'll figure it out.

There's more than one in 11 square miles? We'll talk about how it got that. Well, not more than one at the same time, but over the years. It was founded in 1829. It was named after who? Jackson? Andrew Jackson. Yes, it was.

My man. Please, if you're first-time listeners, you've got to really... I've really got to ease him into that. Yeah, it's... No. He doesn't mean that. Not my man. Yeah, it's just...

But my man. He makes a mistake every once in a while. Because I'm a dummy. And we call him Andrew Jackson. But he embraced it. So by the... They develop it into a... There's a lot of railroads around here.

So by the end of the 1800s, people are coming here because it's a hub of railroads, basically. So wherever the railroads go, people go. Because they can ship goods off. They can receive things. And they can get the hell out of there. The first state prison was built there uh in in michigan and now by 1882 it had the largest walled prison in the world wow and it had both it had factory facilities farmland they used to do they did prisons different in the 1800s they were kind of more of a kind of a like a work camp environment type thing more than it was like they used to make shit.

They still make plates. It's not the same. Then they were building cars. Probably. Yeah. Terrible. Well, in 1882, they weren't. Buggies, maybe.

But so. So Ford's first assembly line was. Yeah, probably. So the first state prison was 1838. It was a temporary wooden prison which does not seem safe that seems like a what what is that that's what it's temper is wood what it's wood you can kick your way out of it makes no sense i've seen guys file through metal and you're talking about you're gonna put them in wood that makes a lot i've been to alcatraz yeah i saw that whole

that makes less sense than spider-man which i never understood either there he puts a web on you okay totally thwarted unless you have scissors and then you're free and clear like it's a bad weapon fucking hands you ever walk through a spider it's a little sticky yeah one of those kids safety scissors you can cut your way right out of those like a bright green pair no problem you won't cut yourself a shitload of spider web to stop me that's what i mean i don't know what how much he's putting out but it was enclosed by a bunch of poles it was built on 60 acres that were donated for the purpose of a prison in 1839 they got their first 35 prisoners in very exciting and then they built a permanent prison three years later they're like this is going great it's working out i love having these guys here let's build let's build them a better

place so yeah they they uh they placed more emphasis in the 1850s they had a warden there that placed more emphasis on education and rehabilitation of prisoners rather than punishment which kind of the the way prisons used to work was kind of heavily based on the warden whoever was the warden that was the god of that prison makes sense so anything that was within the law for them to do they had free reign over so if they wanted to be not if they wanted to be more we're going to educate and rehabilitate that's what they'd be if it was more hard labor and break their balls that's what it would be so you when a new warden would come in i would imagine it'd be scary for prisoners because you have no idea what's his indoctrination process beatings every night or a college education right which one that chair with the hole in the bottom of it where they whack my balls or

or am i gonna study biology internet did you go down this week who knows not that one that is fascinating that's that's the course that they took is either uh education or and and like figuring out how to get them better because that seems like a better plan than just beating them. But then people on the outside, because then people get angry and they go, well, why do they get education? Why don't get education? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

It's like, well, would you rather just let them? Here are the options. You can let them out with nothing and worse off than before and then have them do whatever they're going to do again and then go back in. And also now set back because their bills are behind now by a long time and they've learned a bunch of new stuff in prison from other prisoners so now they got new tactics going out there or you can hopefully either way it costs money that's it though i don't want to spend money well when he comes back to prison guess what that does it's not free it's not like you pay the first time and then they pay if they come back any times after that it still costs you money and if you don't get an education don't worry

you'll be in here soon anyway we'll get you one don't worry yeah it's coming to you it's it's it's crazy man so uh the cheap inmate labor made jackson one of the leading industrial cities in the nation at the time how about that that's that's a problem there they had in 1860s the corset industry came to town. Jimmy, when you're making corsets, that's when the dollars are flowing. That's when the economy's booming. This is post-Civil War.

Let's suck that stomach in, ladies. Let's do it. Betting on the rockabilly shit to pay for it later. We're going to pop those boobs and we're going to slim that stomach. That's what we're going to do in the 1860s.

Come on, guys are coming back from the war. Let's look good. Ridiculous. I can't believe gals. Who the hell ever convinced a woman to put that on? I have no. That's a fucking fascinating thought. Not just that, but the bustle to be uncomfortable all day.

You're not going to be able to breathe. You're going to be constantly sweating under this. It's going to be terrible. You're going to smell awful. You're going to feel like you have you've you've basically popped out your floating ribs is this yeah okay sure no sounds good to you wow that's terrible so and we're going to design it to where the way we like you to look so yeah uh fuck how you like to look and fuck how you like to feel this is what we like to fuck so that's that's what happened that's what happened back then

suck it up ridiculous so the the invention of the duplex corset by a company called boar tree made them the the top corset manufacturer in the world pretty much uh 16 manufacturers in the early 1900s 16 manufacturers of women's corsets operated here and number one that's a lot of corsets per square mile number two there are 16 manufacturers of corsets back then that shit was booming how many people make corsets now i can't like for like sex shops sex shops is going to say like weird fashion things but not normal women i don't think are walking around in corsets rockabilly lifestyle and concert i don't know i don't know it's weird yeah but they they had them most of them were on two streets too so it was like corset row awesome like that's where they make all the corsets

uh elastics came into the manufacturing and changed the design and uh after elastics came in the corset industry went down because it's much more comfortable yeah then much easier and easier to make easier to put on it's not just a cramming your bones and organs into one place you need a friend to lace you up yeah that's the thing that's that's the thing you had to have a friend or like you had to hire somebody to help you get dressed back then it's crazy so uh they club by 1920 pretty much all the corset manufacturers were gone. So wiped out by elastics here. How about that? Only three of the original ones survived into the 20s, and they changed from corsets to kind of therapeutic and prosthetic things.

They turned it into like a medical shit here. So I don't know. Corsets. Wow. He tried to make basically the corset shop was open to make skirts and bustles. That's why it was open. And then they invited the corset. They were making, after that, at one point, they were making 300,000 corsets per year, this one company.

A year. That is a lot. That's a shitload of corsets, man. Wow. I don't even know what to say about that. They had a woman-owned corset manufacturer in 1860, and it had the distinction of being run by the first and only female president who invented the coronet corset and patented it. So that was a big deal back then. The auto industry, obviously, is a big deal around these parts.

industry obviously is a big deal around these parts detroit before detroit started making cars jackson factories were making cars and making parts and putting them together okay basically so that kind of that was even pre-detroit this is kind of you know car city here motor city uh by 1910 the uh it was their main industry that's when corsets started to decline, and more than 20 different brands were made here at one point. Reeves, Jackson, Carter, Carter Carr, Orlo, Whiting, Butcher & Gage, Buick, Jani, Globe, Steel Swallow. Steel Swallow. That is a gay porn actor. Steel Swallow.

He's got an iron jaw. Yeah, he does. Wow. Holy shit. I'm sorry, but it is like the davny incredible oh it's just fucking steel swallows cvi imperial standard electric a bunch of other ones here i've heard of two of them yeah i love cars wolverine these are all these are all defunct by the you know ford drove these out of business with the assembly line kind of thing here. Ye olde carriage shop in Spring Arbor nowadays has

60 antique cars and shit like that. And they have five one and only's and 16 cars that were made in Jackson. They have like an old Jackson car museum. I'd like to see that. That sounds pretty cool. It's only 20 cars. We can do that

in 20 minutes that's all right out of here there they are they still make auto parts here that's the thing it's still like tommy boy here they're still running callahan brake pads over here so uh it's one of the largest employers of skilled machine operators in the county so that's a a big deal and also it was an early site for moped parts so uh that's a big deal too uh by 1910 they had a whole bunch of shit here there was but you could make corsets or auto parts like no if you needed a job you came up here corsets auto parts there was a factory job waiting for you. Tons of people came, not only from the south. This was the great migration up north.

It was kind of the second great migration up north. So black people came like crazy. Plentiful jobs. And it's not the south. Great. Sounds good. Plentiful jobs and there's money? Fresh start.

I'm in. I'm in. Also, this is European immigrants are coming at this time this is when a large influx of of this is you're getting your italians and polacks and all this type of thing are going to be in here so yeah that's right so uh why is that word so fun i don't know it's just funny it's funny and polish people are always cool and don't give a shit that you say that's what's great about polish they don't care they're like yeah i'm a polack what do i care what else you're gonna call me yeah right it's easier than polish all you got yeah all right polack what else i'm dumb i'm dumb all right i am me and blondes i am go ahead say what do you want from me

i'm a i'm a blonde polack what else you got usually i'm more drunk than dumb but you know you take it however you see it they're usually funny like that so i mean they would say that so lots of people here coming in and an influx in 1914 a guy named george toradoff far toter off founded the first coney island restaurant and created the coney island hot dog that was the first one topping here uh his coney island restaurant was in the by the railroad station there and it was a 24-hour little hot dog joint and uh he sold more than 17 million coney island restaurant was in the by the railroad station there and it was a 24-hour little hot dog joint and uh he sold more than 17 million coney island hot dogs in the course of 31 years and uh yeah so now there's other ones there that the ones that are there now aren't associated with his original ones there's all sorts of ones here everywhere now yeah yeah so uh i guess apparently

it was they have people in this town have their own kind of version of the coney dog it's like a thing here uh it's it's a little bit different whatever who cares so 1934 a new prison was completed we need a new one here uh within the city limits it took in all of the state's prisoners it's now not a prison anymore it's a historic building used as an artist's resident community known as armory arts village they always do where you can pretend to be a prisoner while you paint which is i don't know if that's conducive stupid i want to feel i want to feel and i want to create yeah how about feel i want to be where male rapes have happened like a lot of them where is that just man on man in the shower just taken by force couldn't i i

want to i feel i just an energy when i'm around that i don't know what what the fuck is that really helps me utilize my browns and reds that's what it is it's mainly those and i i you know i dabble in whites but that's only in the right at the end of the picture i don't get i don't get into it before that mainly just okay that was dumb so i don't get into it before that. Mainly just brands. Okay, that was dumb. I don't understand why artists always got to do that. Why can't you just paint in your fucking house? Why you got to go somewhere and feel and be inspired by surroundings? Just fucking put your brush on the canvas.

We're comedians, which is, I don't care what anyone says, it's not really an art. It's more of a craft than an art. You know what I'm saying? It's more of an accident. Yeah. It's more of just a we've been we've been damaged by certain things this is really you know when they take a bullet after it's been shot and they take it in and they look at the rifling marks and they look at the dashes the grooves and all the problem that's what we are comedians are like a bullet with a lot of and you could look at it and you could ballistically check it out and go look at those grooves that came could ballistically check it out, and you'd go, oh, look at those screws. That came from this.

That came from the shitty family. Parents didn't pay attention. Father wasn't around. Gone. I see that one. I see the alcoholic father at the child molestation. You can see it all. This bullet's really gone through some shit. Kind of a comedian. As an artist, I don't know if it's that clear.

No, it's pristine. It's a pristine bullet. It actually just fell out of the casing. It's like a shotgun ball. It's no ballistics on it at all. It just came out. We don't know how it got here, but here it is. Here it is. Smooth as can be.

So, yeah. Jesus Christ. There's a museum there. It's the only museum where visitors can get a closed cell block on the grounds of an active prison for a self-guided tour. Self-guided. You could just walk around and hang out in the prison. I mean, the point of a tour is to know some shit. What's a self-guided one?

I'm going to go in there and figure it out myself? You go to Alcatraz, you put the headphones on, and they tell you shit. Otherwise, you just walk around and you go, guess people were in here. Oh, look. Somebody stayed there for a while against their will. Again, I bet there was rape here. It's tell you shit. Otherwise, you just walk around and you go, I guess people were in here. Oh, look. Somebody stayed there for a while against their will. Again, I bet there was rape here. That's all you do. Notable people from Jackson.

Tony Dungy. Really? Football coach, Tony Dungy. Yeah, he's from here. And I found a review of this place. This is a resident review. I found a ton of resident reviews. Not a lot of them are glowing.

I'll be very honest with you here. But here's one that's particularly impressive to me. it's from last year it's from september of 2018 the title of this the heading is quote a nightmare town you need to avoid hell yeah so that's that's a good start i'm intrigued right away i'm fucking riveted sir keep it going i'm in what do you got uh let's see quote never ever never never ever move to this town exclamation point that's the never ever never never ever exclamation point that's the opening sentence i was born here grew up around here made the tragic mistake of moving back there once and will never set foot there again exclamation point jackson is a town with

a black with a black cloud hanging over it i I had to just pause for a second. Is he going to say something racist here? I'm like, oh, Jesus. What am I getting myself? I thought I read all this before I wrote it down. What am I doing? Jackson is a town. Jackson is a town with a black man, and it's horrible. It's horrible.

He had all the blacks in. Jackson is a town with blacks all over the place, and I don't like it. I was like, oh, no. No, Jackson is a town with a black cloud hanging over it and it's been there for at least 64 at least the 64 years i've been around and there are no jobs there at all its principal products are bad backs alcoholism drug addiction and divorce wow that is those are their exports wow bad backs bad backs from manual labor, alcoholism, and drug addiction, and divorce. Yeah. Okay.

That all goes with it. Young people move away as soon as they are old enough. I sure did. On everyone's lips is the phrase, I'll be out of here soon. One star, by the way. He didn't give that. It wasn't a glowing review. Keeping it true to prisons.

I'll be out of here, and I'll never come back. You know what I mean? But he did. He went back. he went back he went back now this town turn of the century 1900 there was 25 000 people here because it was a lot of corsets and shit going on here by 19 it peaks in 1930 1930 there are this is right before as the depression's hitting 55 000 people here in 1930 and then it declines a little bit, comes back up 1960. There's 50,000 people here back, you know, when there were some jobs.

And then it declines when the jobs start to go in the 70s. The, you know, the auto jobs, things start to go a little down. And then through the 80s, they decline. And today we are down to 32,875 people. So they've backed themselves into being on small town murder, into being a small town. It's down 12.2% since 1990 and continues to go down every census, a few thousand people. It doesn't seem to be doing great. I mean, you never know.

It could shoot up in the next five years. We don't know. Female population is a little bit more than the male, but nothing out of the ordinary. Median age here is 32.1, which is, yeah, five and a half years under the average. All of the child zero years old to 17 years old, that demographic, every one of those is high. They're all high. 25 to 44-year-olds, that demographic is high. They're all high.

25 to 44-year-olds, that demographic is high. And all the demographics over 45 years old are all really low. Really? Like some of them are half. I think they're just dying young. I think they're moving the fuck away from here as soon as they can. Nobody retires. Got it.

There's old people here and there's retirement stuff here, but it seems like people want to get... It's cold. Up north, those people get the hell out of there they go to florida yeah they get out of there when they're old enough this shit to flint to fly well it's by the shits an hour and change yeah that's right so it's it's not that far maybe they got some shitty water who knows but it's it's yeah it could be just killing these people off bad backs and alcoholism and divorce and drug addiction. You don't live past 45 here. 45 and undertown. Married population, it's usually 50-50. Here it is 34%.

So pretty low. It's a young crowd, so you'd expect that. So the currently married number is lower. The widowed rate's about the same, which a little not what I expected. Single with children, it is 37%. And normally it's 16%. And single with no children, 15%. Usually it is 37%. And normally it's 16%. And single with no children, 15%.

Usually it's 10%. So more single people by any stretch of the imagination. But there is a lot with kids. So if you don't mind that, have fun. Race of this town, white is 67%. In the country, it's about 62%. Black, we we have 21.8 which is way higher than normal than the average is average is 12.3 and way way higher than our average on this show yeah which is about 0.002 percent so uh 0.5 asian there's no no asian people to speak of which is weird for a bigger

town that's near a larger city that's that's strange statistic wise it gives them a lot more opportunity yeah and and hispanic 6.4 percent which is about a third of the rest of the that's real low the average so it's very strange here it's just white and black yeah up there uh or black and white or black and white however you want to well on my on the list they show up. Okay. Really? Do they show up? Oh, yeah, yeah, I got it. On a list of like from the thing. It says white, black, Asian, Native American, Hawaiian, Pacific.

That's how they start it? Yeah. Really? Because it's the highest. Oh, yeah, got it. They're descending in terms of population. So 30.2% of the people here are religious, which that's good. It's usually 50%.

So they're lower. I like that. 12.2% of the people here are religious, which that's good. It's usually 50%. So they're lower. I like that. 12.2% Catholic. So a lot of other Christian. It's a mixed bag in the Midwest. It depends on the town and the space. But 0.1% Jewish. So not Jewish.

You can take that out of the mixed bag. A mixed bag minus Judaism and Islam. You can pull those two right out. 0.0% Islam. Here, last election, about 37% voted Democrat, about 57% voted Republican, about 6.5% independent here. Unemployment rate. And this is where our review comes into play because he's got a point compared to other

places. Rest of the country, it's about 4%. Here, it's about 7%. Unemployment? Unemployment. A little bit and that's michigan's got a tough deal with unemployment and uh this this place is no different they've been shaken with that for shit since 2007 since 1972 probably i would say but the housing crisis really fucked them too oh that fucked them but since it was the auto worker thing in the that that when that industry started started getting shaky in the 70s that's when that shit the middle class lost their sense it lost their security at that point and that's moving it out of the country

people see well not only that they just started saying we can't afford your contracts your union contract it's a long thing i've read a bunch of books about the economic i'd like to go back and revisit that one day because i don't think i've really read no i never did no it's pretty interesting i got a few books for you i'd love to read them it's good yeah that's a new hobby i'm doing yeah i really like it start giving jimmy reading lists this is a lot of fun it's good stuff taking a fucking do audio books even yeah fantastic journey through imagination it's a blast hey i can see colors median household income uh thirty one thousand dollars here so it's 57 almost 58 in the rest of the country so it's low uh a lot

of manufacturing jobs more than you know more than uh average for manufacturing uh health care social assistance is higher that's about it cost of living 100 average regular par here it's 85 it's cost of living and the low thing is housing which is a 55 okay median home cost here is 116 800 so it's it's it's low and there are looks like to me about 70 of the houses are are valued at under 80 000 oh my god here so you don't want to see a house in Michigan that's that. That's rough. That's 80 grand. If we've convinced you that you do want to see one,

we have for you the Jackson, Michigan Real Estate Report. Your average two-bedroom rental here is going to go for about $840, which is high considering the home cost. But there's a high percentage of renters here, so that drives it up. I found a four-bedroom, two-bath, 1,500-square-foot house. It's rough. It's a bit decrepit. I'm not going to lie.

$29,900. That's unbelievable to me. I mean, it's 1,500. I don't know. 1,500 square feet for that. That's whatever. It's incredible. It's incredible. It's incredible.

I found a three-bedroom, three-bath, 1,224 square feet house. This is very nice. Well-appointed. On two acres of lush green land with trees and everything. $135,000. What the fuck? Not bad. This one, though, is the craziest.

A five-bedroom, four-and-a-half bath, 5,000 square foot, big brick, nice house. It's real. It's real house. Brick. It's brick. It's not on a lot in a neighborhood. It's a smaller lot. $200,000.

Wow. Are you kidding me? Five bedrooms? What? 5,000 square feet. You get lost in that house. $200,000. $200,000.

Jesus Christ. 200 grand. 200 grand. Jesus Christ. Holy crap. So you can get land? Yeah. Or you can get a big giant house for the cost of an average house somewhere else. That is unbelievable. Yeah. Things to do.

Yeah. The Jackson County Fair coming up next week. Oh. Guys, get on this. Right now. Dead of summer? In August, baby. Back east, that's what they do.

Really? Yeah, because otherwise it's freezing. I guess. Otherwise it's freezing. But September at least? It could, baby. Back east, that's what they do. Really? Yeah, because otherwise it's freezing. I guess. Otherwise it's freezing. But September at least? It could be cold. Fucking August. And sometimes in September it's cold.

I guess. So you do, yeah. I'd rather ride a tilt-a-whirl in a jacket than sweat my fucking balls off. Me too. But back there, most of the time you go at night and it's nice out. It cools down at night back east. Okay. This isn't Florida.

But like in the north, in Michigan, it's pretty cool at night. I suppose I got a point. We found, let's see here, playing here. They've got some acts like in the north in Michigan. It's pretty cool. I suppose you got a point. We found, let's see here, playing here. They got some acts coming in. Oh, yeah. August 5th, Jeff Dunham's going to be there. Oh, boy. Stupid fucking puppet being a complete shitty, terrible comedian.

Saying horrible things to a puppet that he wouldn't dare say out of his fucking mouth. This puppet says racist shit. Isn't that funny? It's not me. Fucking idiot. Pay me. of shit isn't that funny it's not me fucking idiot pay me uh august 6 boys to men are coming to town on the quote what's left of them tour whoever's not dead yet tour perfect plays with their bad backs perfect oh jesus august 7th foreigner and sticks are going to be there that i will say they're both too old to complete their own sets, so they're going to help out.

Okay, you guys come up for a couple of songs. My hip is bothering me again. Johnny, my hip's bothering me. Bring me my wheelchair. Get Foreigner up here. That's you, Pox Hero, going, let's do this. Man. August 9th, the Twisted P Rodeo.

Oh, no. It's a rodeo. And then August 10th, the Demolition derby to close the bitch out let's do it yeah i love a demolition derby this shit from dunham to sticks to derby rodeos this is the most rural detroit shit ever so it is this is oh boy uh you can tell you tell what crowd they're wanting to attract the crime rate in this town. Property crime is almost double the national rate. And violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and of course assault is almost triple the national rate.

Shit is going bad here. It is dangerous. Unemployment high. Income low. Housing costs low, which is good except the fact that they're depressed because no one wants to live there. And triple violent rate. The signs are going the wrong direction the problem is it might be getting better yeah it might have been way worse 10 years ago this might be like well it was quadruple five years ago asshole so what do you say to that but listen we've got jeff dunham coming to town now jeff dunham's coming so it's on the upswing fine once that puppet comes through he's

gonna make harmony with everybody hell yeah through, he's going to make harmony with everybody. He's going to make the racist jokes that the rest of us want to make, and then we won't make them. That's how this will work, and then we won't fight. Keep it going round and round. That's it, baby. So let's talk about a murder.

It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor.

I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes. You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid.

Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell.

She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again. Leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Aaron and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched.

He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother****er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal,

or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wond in the wondery app or on apple podcasts so let's talk about this interesting little scenario here yeah talk about a couple of people first you could have waited a couple of weeks there's gonna be one yeah fucking it's true they're fair that's a good point there will be uh that's jeff dunham's gonna kill he's gonna slaughter that crap with his puppet good god i wish somebody would beat him with this puppet i wish somebody would take it out

of his hands hold it by the ankles and just fucking pummel him into incoherence with that thing you don't have to kill him just enough so he's not just so he loses that portion of his brain that remembers that stupid shit he does just enough whatever the portion of his brain that you can damage that will make him forget his act they can forget that he does comedy it goes on stage with a brain that's damaged in that area he's just talking he's not even fucking doing ventriloquism shit he's just just like, I don't like Arabs. And then out of a puppet and they're like, you move the puppet's mouth, but your mouth just, you said it. You just happen to be holding a puppet.

Doesn't mean that it's the puppet. He just stands there with like, holds the stick down. Yeah. Like swings it at his thigh. Yeah. While he says racist things. That's horrible shit. While he says racist shit in a dumb voice

that I will pay to watch I would pay to watch that only knowing only if the crowd didn't know that's what was going to happen if they never heard of him if they heard of him and are expecting to see Jeff Dunham and they show up and they're like

he's not even saying it through the puppet now I think he's not even saying it through the puppet now. I think he's just a dick. He just put it down by his side. He's just a dangle. The difference is if they're his fans, they'll still laugh because of that. I want it to be people that have never heard of him. Like, who is this lunatic?

Just shocked. What the fuck am I watching? This guy just hanging a puppet by his side saying terrible things about everybody he can think of? Saying terrible things about my neighbor. This is weird. Sorry to go off on Jeff Dunham. We're comedians, so when something like that comes up, we cannot help it. You can't resist.

It's just you can't resist. It's too much fun. So let's talk about a couple of people here. Let's talk about a couple. A nice couple. An average couple, we'll call them. They's too much fun. So let's talk about a couple of people here. Let's talk about a couple. A nice couple. An average couple, we'll call them. They have a business together. They work together.

They live together. Good couple here. This is Kevin Lloyd Arts. He is A-R-T-Z Arts. Hell yeah. That's his name. He goes by Kip. Good Lord.

Everybody calls him Kip, which I don't know. I didn't know Kip. I thought Kip was a name that you named a person. It's a real name. I didn't know that Kip is a... It's a nickname? Is it a nickname? Yeah.

I don't know. Is that short for Kevin? I guess. I have no idea. We'll see. But Kip, and he's got a wife named Patricia. Everybody calls Patty. Okay.

So you got... I can see how you can get from A to B there. Patty and Patricia. Yeah. Easy peasy. Kip and Kevin, I don't know where that came from, but whateverip and kevin here or kip and patricia kip is married to himself it's very odd uh they get married in about 1987 and so uh they're at the time uh at the time kip is uh kip is about 31 and she's about 34 so she's about three years older than him but they get married yeah they've both had relationships before she's had a previous 31 and she's about 34. So she's about three years older than him. But they get married.

Yeah, they both had relationships before. She's had a previous marriage and he's had previous things. They can relate. Yeah. They find each other and they hook up. And so for at least what seems to be a good 12, 13 years, they seem to get along. They seem to be a couple. They go on vacations together.

There's pictures of them in Nantucket having a good time and stuff like that. seem to get along they seem to be a couple they go on vacations together there's you know pictures of them and nantucket having a good time and stuff like that and uh they do well they do well for well they have they own a restaurant okay they own a restaurant together it's called this is a weird it's called kip's pizza and tacos well what about patty patty's not involved in this i don't know if i don't they work together but i don't know if this was kip's restaurant before they met or if they just decided kip's was a better name i'm on board because patty makes you think of a hamburger yeah that's what i would think of and we're selling pizza and tacos here not hamburgers what kind of fucking what's wrong with you patty

jesus this is the first pizza hut taco bell combination yeah that's a he was a visionary this man he's a visionary he saw it ahead of time he's like they're gonna want terrible pizza and tacos that have been sitting here for 20 minutes they're gonna want both terrible pizza and half-assed tacos when you bite the whole bottom blows out because the meat grease has soaked the corn steak corn tortilla corn tortilla jesus christ whatever that is is that meat that they use well it's something jack in the box uses some kind of soy in their tacos it does it does exist yeah i like jack in the box's some kind of soy in their tacos. It does. It does exist. I do know that. Yeah. I like Jack in the Box's soy slurry.

I think that's a really good, whatever they're putting in their tacos. Whatever smear of shit that is, is delicious for some reason. Soy slurry. Is that what it is? It's soy? Yeah, it's not meat and beef. It's clearly not beef. It's not beef.

It's not meat. You take a bite. No, it's not. It's soy, which makes me feel better because that's soy. Okay. I feel less like a piece of shit. Well, no, I feel like Taco Bell, I'm just shrugging my shoulders when I go that. They're claiming this is beef, but do I believe that? I don't know.

You know what I'm saying? I'm like, I'm not positive that this is beef, whereas if that's soy, I'll buy that. Soy's cheaper than beef. I'm feeling a story of a couple years ago that whatever the feeling filling was in taco bell was just a chemical that's what they called it was like the chemical yeah there's i'm sure that it's not it's not beef that's definitely that was never a living being no what i'm told i don't know what it ever was but i think they probably created it in the lab much like you create styrofoam or something of that nature like a pink sludge whatever

mcdonald's calls chicken yeah whenever they make pool noodles out of like that shit i feel like that's the wherever they make those however they make yoga mats yeah that's like a subway that's right that's in subways buns that's a chemical it's a chemical yeah but we don't know if that's in taco bell or whatever, but I can't identify that as meat. But anyway, these people presumably make real meat tacos and pizza. So Kip's Pizza and Tacos. Got it.

They're like, of course we're going to name it. Who's not going to buy pizza and tacos from a man named Kip? Right. Obviously. I am neither Italian nor Mexican by my food. Hey, Kip. How you doing? Whatever.

Right. They also live in an apartment attached to the restaurant that's awesome they have like their own on-site thing it's not a second story it's a separate thing that's cool so it's pretty cool and i looked it up too like on zillow i found it and it's like it's like a two-bedroom one bath it's got a little room in there it's not like a 300 square foot like a tenement apartment above a lower east side you know that would be shitty our pizza place. Yeah.

It's not one of those. They're not huddled above there. Are we going to? Oh, we got to make it a food tomorrow. No. I'm greasy. Fuck. Walks downstairs with no shower, unbrushed teeth.

Hang in the sausage all over my apartment. I don't know. I can make. Oh, no, it's not big enough. And now my wife, she's a pregnant again. Hey, see, you're going to have another one in here. I just channeled the Godfather 2, I think. And it was Robert De Niro sitting there.

So anyway, yeah. They live in this apartment. Now, 1999 comes around. Like I said, they've been married for about a dozen years. Everything seems fine. Nobody's ever, they're not a problem. They're just nice people doing fine. 1999?

1999 comes around. Yeah, her sister here, Cynthia Powers, Patty's sister, them or they're not they're just nice people doing fine 1999 1999 comes around uh yeah they uh her his her sister here uh cynthia powers patty's sister and she has another sister named dorothy uh they both said there's there's no strife between them uh they had a father's day 1999 there was a big family gathering they came together like they always do and they acted like they always do and there was never a problem there was no like you know arguing or that you know that couples were mad at each other let's pretend everything's fine for two hours and argue on the way home right yeah but it's a great thing

to get away for the two hours and talk to other people because you're like it can't affect me now i'm laughing with somebody else what What do you think of that? I had to go to my kid's birthday party last weekend and listen to my, ugh, it was the most uncomfortable weekend ever and I had to deal with my ex-wife and we're, you're telling a story

and then she chimes in, oh, I don't know. You weren't even there. Shut up. You're legally out of the story. Thank you. I signed a document that says

you're not in my stories anymore. No more. You're like when Kramer sold his shit to Jay Peterman. He document that says you're not in my stories anymore no more you're like when kramer sold his shit to jay peterman he's you're not in them anymore that's it you're done that's how it works our store if i'm to you tell a story i stay out of it i tell a story you stay out we our stories belong to us now that's it yeah the lucky part is that ride home was just a fucking smile because i didn't have yeah i had to tell stories to myself that's what's good nobody in them that's what i like i'm sarah my wife here if we go to things i can i can tell talk shit about other people to her which is wonderful that's what you got to find somebody where you're both talking and planning on when to get the hell out of this shithole

does how long are we going to stay here two hours tops all right cool that's the person you need by a buck 40 and into that two hours you're looking at each other going now is the time we're going 20 minutes to tops which probably just dip you do they like a thing like you're stirring with your finger like that means wrap it up and make your mingle and i'm dialing your goodbyes yeah like you're like you're doing a rotary phone in 1975 let's let's wrap it up that's my emily bus is leaving that's my i had a bus uncle used to say that he's an old guy he'd say three words the whole gathering you sit there and chain smoke he's hilarious sit there and chain smoke and then

when it was time to go he'd tell his wife he'd tell my aunt he'd just go bus is leaving and he'd walk toward the front door she had from the time he had ms so he was slow but he had she had from the time from the time he walked to the car and started it up and put it in reverse to get in that car and be gone or else the fucking bus was leaving and she could find another way home and i'm like this guy is it's a sweet qualifier the ms though because then he's like the bus is leaving he's like countdown to minute 30 bus is leaving he'd start gathering his shit that was it boy she'd be like oh oh goodbye we're we're leaving now that would be a fun game though if you're him like just sitting there waiting and watching and then when she sits down with a plate and she takes her first bite then you go bus is leaving he would say a word no warning he'd just

be smoking the whole time and then just that bus is leaving it's over okay you guys call him uncle bus that's he was great he was great he's dead unfortunately god he was a fun guy he told me the craziest story if you live in the north you hear stories about the south that scare you and i'm sure it's vice versa yeah But like we he was telling me that this is a really bad story. But he told me that he was in the military because he was in Korea. And the MS ended up getting him sent home from Korea. So good for you. Yeah.

I mean, he goes, hey, sometimes you got to count your blessings. He had it for like 65 years. Oh, geez. He was still walking. Best MS he ever got. Oh, he was not sturdy. You could push him over with one shove, but he was he could fucking somehow balance himself up to go to the fridge and get another beer. He was not sturdy. You could push him over with one shove, but he could fucking somehow balance himself up to go to the fridge and get another beer.

That's great. He was great. So he was telling me they were down south in training or some shit. I don't remember if it was Alabama or one. It was a very southern state. George, Alabama, Mississippi, one of those. And they're driving at night back to the base, and they hit something of what they hit, like an animal or something.

They didn't know. They didn't know. It was pitch black. No streetlights. It's through the woods here not in the woods but you know rural street and uh they hit something and so they were like oh shit you know and they pulled over and they were like looking trying to find it all over the woods for they're there for 20 minutes looking around they didn't have a flashlight they're just trying to see what they could have possibly hit you know because they're you know human beings that are responsible they give a shit want to make sure that nothing you know could have been a dog who knows a person god forbid so uh after a little while a sheriff officer pulls up next to them and they're in their uniforms and everything and there's a base nearby

oh what are you fellas doing here and they're like ah we think we we think we hit something and we're you know we don't know what it was so we want to make sure it's not you know somebody's dog or a person or something like that and he goes he said the sheriff looked at him he goes ah get the hell out of here get back in the car and go to base it was probably just an n-word just that and he said it obviously and they were like huh yeah they're from new york so they were just like what uh no did you say sir did you say it may have been something a little bigger is that what you said to me they were just like are this motherfucker serious yeah and then this guy was in sit now get the hell out you get the hell out like he was gonna fucking arrest them if they didn't leave like you get the hell out of

here luckily he said we're pretty sure it was an animal because it was down low below the hood but who the fuck knows and the fact that they you know they said they he said i thought about that for 20 years it's like jesus christ that's how you know if you're racist or not you know what i mean because something like that and he was racist he was racist he was old as shit he was racist but it didn't matter it was a person that he may have killed like that race didn't matter at that point you know it wasn't even a human beingism comes in above racism when you think you hit a human with your car at that point it's not a matter of well if it's a white fella i'll get out and help him that's another level of crazy. That locked up my ribs. So sorry to tell you about that. Ribs usually flex.

I don't think mine did. 1953 Alabama politics. So I'm hoping it's better down there now. I don't know. If you're from Alabama, let us know if it's any better down there now. I hope so. So nothing went on here. Two weeks later, though, they said they talked to Patty.

And that was mid-June 1999. Two weeks later, though, Patty's really worried about their finances because Kip needs surgery. He has to have brain surgery. He's got a blood clot in his brain. And so this is putting a lot of stress on their finances because they own their own business and it's hard on them. And while he's in the hospital and recovering, they have to close the restaurant also because they own their own business and it's hard on them. And while he's in the hospital and recovering, they have to close the restaurant also because they run it. So this is now hurting their income and they have to shell out all this money.

So it's like double financial hurt for them. So, yeah, they end up closing the restaurant for a couple weeks is what they're going to do. June 29th, 1999, Kip is admitted to the foot hospital and he has emergency surgery to remove a blood clot in his brain so f-o-o-t-e f-o-o-t-e named after got it yeah okay yeah named after a fucking idiot i'm like why would they why would he go there it's only the foot but he's gonna go to podiatrist oh my god oh my god i didn't even think of that of course you did i didn't even think of that i'm a fucking idiot no i don't i don't see things right in front of me i'm the type of person that if i'm looking for the ketchup and i open the fridge and it's

right in the front in the top shelf right in front of my eyes i will look for 20 minutes and never see it and then tell sarah that she put it somewhere else and that she's fucking with me and then she'll open and go it's right here because it's right there because i'm looking in the back corner and in a drawer and under the thing and around it and i didn't even notice that because i'm an idiot i didn't know what you were saying i'm like why would he go to that hospital that's a really bad place to be is the blood clot and they have a whole hospital for feet that's nuts people in michigan that's the other thing bad backs alcoholism drug addiction divorce and just the feet are terrible it's everybody it's those roads

bunions and the sidewalks too they every time they walk it's saying and messes your feet up fix your roads god damn it i'm dumb i actually saw somebody i can't remember who it was it was a politician from michigan and they were saying they won on a platform of fixing the roads. They ran on, I'm going to fix the fucking roads! And people went, yes! And they voted for that person. That seems very logical.

I was there for three hours and said, your biggest problem is your roads. Well, the drinking water... No, no, no, no, it doesn't matter. You can't get where you're going. So it doesn't matter if you have water or not. You're stuck in one place. You get roads.

I guarantee you'll get somebody out to that water farm to fix it. That's the problem. How are they going to get there and fix it when it's like going up the side of a mountain, mud bogging. Down a goddamn road. So, yeah. So he's in the hospital for a week with this emergency surgery. And apparently he wasn't doing splendidly when they let him out.

They let him out on July 6th. And his sister says, quote, he should have never been released from the hospital. And we were all worried sick. They said that when they let him out of the hospital, he was still out of it. And she said, quote, he didn't even know who Patty was. So he didn't even recognize his wife is what the sister was saying what kip sister is saying about this yeah brain surgery he had a brain surgery had a blood clot removed and an aunt that had this the same type of thing at a blood clot removed like that so uh i mean it's a scary thing yeah i mean blood clots is not like no a little of blood. It's bad. It's long.

It's like a string. It's rough. It's bananas, is what it is. And it's in your artery or in your blood flow area. And now I'm paranoid. I'm sure I have 12, 13 of them floating around in my body. So his other sister here, Susan, has a sister. Susan is a nurse.

She's a nurse, actually, in Phoenix at the Neurological Institute there, the St. Joseph's, whatever the hell that is. It's a great hospital. Yeah, she works there. To fix my hand. Yeah, there you go. Not the neurological part, because that would be the brain. I went to the hand side. The hand side.

The hand hospital. With an E on the end. The hand hospital. with an e on the end the hand hospital so she says that uh she was angry that her brother was released from the hospital she says that she didn't think that he was ready to be released and the only reason that she that he was released is because he didn't have health insurance so they said well you're good enough yeah so there you go have a good one here uh they also said that she also said that like they just said here you go here he is and like he didn't know where he was and he was all out of it they said they didn't warn them

that hey he might act a little weird for a while because we were just poking around in his noggin so that shit happens don't turn the microwave on yeah it's gonna be weird yeah so uh also in order to do the surgery to remove this blood clot the doctors because it was an emergency surgery it wasn't like it was a uh planned thing he was on prozac at the time for years for depression yeah kip was on prozac for years they had to stop the prozac immediately right now completely not a wean off right now and then do the brain surgery so when you come out of that you are in a non-prozac just had your brain surgery fog now you feel i would yeah i would imagine that's a weird fog to be in because that there's been a lot of uh research on stopping those antidepressants especially prozac prozac for

sure uh cold turkey and it's not good no your brain does not react well to that and you tend to get you know a little reactionary. Yeah. We'll say you can't control your emotions. Can have some freak out moments. Some freak out moments here. But still, for them, though, they were doing fine, except for after the surgery, friends and relatives said that he acted strangely, Kip.

He started acting strangely after the surgery. Just didn't, was just off. Like, after a while, he knew who Patty was and stuff, but, like, after a few days, but he was just off. There was just something, like, he's just not all there. It's almost like if somebody got hit in the head, and you're just like, yeah, you're right. And they're like, I'm Batman, like in a Snickers commercial.

You're like, okay. You're all right, I'm fine. Why? Your dick is out, so this is weird. And, yeah, yeah well you're picking your child up from preschool so it's inappropriate here you have forgotten pants again yeah that's why jesus christ that's why we're asking yeah so uh and now the hot the the restaurant's closed uh so now it's been closed it's going on two weeks as we go into that's no income the second week of July. That's no income for two weeks and hospital bills are going to be flowing in. This is rough

here. Now, Patty's real close to her family. She talks to them on a daily basis. She's got sisters. They talk all the time. She's always talking to her family. July 15th comes around and Patty's sisters and her father are trying to contact her

like normal and she doesn't get back to them so two days go by with no response and this is not normal for patty at all they just every day they talk whatever so especially now she's not the restaurant's not even open so they're like okay she's got all kinds of time yeah she's not busy if they could you know if the restaurant's open they could have just called in order to pie you know or some tacos can you deliver a large pepperoni and some of your time to talk? And yes, can we discuss the Labor Day party we're going to have? So after two days, her sisters and her father, or her sisters and Kevin's father, or Kip,

we'll say Kip, her sisters and Kip's father go to the restaurant and knock on the doors and windows. So you guys in there, what's going on here? At one point, Kip's father go to the restaurant and knock on the doors and windows. Are you guys in there? What's going on here? At one point, Kip comes out. He pops out after a while of knocking, and he says, Patty took the car, and she went to visit somebody. We were bickering, and she just got in the car and took off. Yeah, she's gone.

Probably on her way to your house. I don't know. Yeah, your guess is as good as mine. I don't know. She was pissy, and the car's gone now the sister didn't believe him because she knew for a fact that two days or three days before that they just sold the car oh so because her sister told her well that's a loopy thing to say yeah her sister said we just had to sell the car because we need money and because the restaurant's fucking closed but uh he's saying

she took the car and went so they're like how'd she take the car that you just sold that's he doesn't know that she knows they sold the car sir yes sir are you out of it so uh it's at this point that they start to get they're like this is weird these he's lying to us we know that so patty's sister's called the police they say let's we're gonna put in her missing persons on our sister even if that's true then she's been gone for two days right so either way the police need to be notified here so uh there was a deputy sheriff wayne bissard he's the first to respond uh he's dispatched to kip's pizza and taco here uh like i said restaurant's been closed um he you know shows up he says he's a restaurant sees there's an apartment on the side

and kind of assesses the whole thing here now uh kip comes out and uh talks to him because he's knocking on the door and police wouldn't when the police knock on the door you generally tend to open so uh now this officer bassard here sheriff's deputy deputy bassard he looks around the restaurants he saw no signs of patty anywhere he's like i don't see patty she's not like you know tied up in the back or anything but after he asks kip when's the last time he saw her and this is what makes him suspicious of kip a little bit kip says that the last time he saw patty was when she left in their car that's it uh so you know whatever now he is all kip this officer has been told that

the car has been sold three days ago so right away he's like okay that's his story but it's bullshit he's lying to me too so that's a problem uh apparently this guy said well do you mind if i just take a look around the restaurant just let me let me make their sisters feel better that patty's not trapped in here or something like that you know so apparently after some cajoling uh kip finally agrees to it okay fine you can look around the restaurant so uh after he does a quick look around the restaurant he just feels like something's wrong yeah basar this deputy basar he's like something's off here um you're good kip have a good one here uh well i'm gonna be back in a little bit but just hang tight we're all good don't worry about it so he leaves to talk to his supervisor this cop because he doesn't know how to handle

this because he let him look around but to poke around any further he doesn't know yeah because he doesn't know what do i have to see to be able to just do something and what's what he's not positive and he doesn't want to fuck a case up basically especially with a missing person involved so he returns later with a detective a detective thomas fierro he's gonna come in hey yeah i got it i got this deputy take take a fucking breather i'll take care of this tommy fierro nice to meet you how's it going how's it going good to see you uh he comes in he goes this fucking pizza is terrible i'm gonna be honest with you i know pizza he called his pizza So you make a shit pie. Baker's Pride Oven. Three fucking words for Baker's

Pride Oven. That's how you do it. What is this? DeRosa's? No, it is Cincinnati Shit Hole DeRosa's. The worst pizza in the United States of America. And it is a wet sock atop cardboard found in a dumpster. Not even in a dumpster. Beside a dumpster.

They took it and they went. Thrown at the dumpster. Hey, I could put a, beside a dumpster. They took it and they went... Thrown at the dumpster. Hey, I could put a wet sock on this cardboard. We could sell it as pizza. It's a good idea. Yeah, do that. It was $14.99. Perfect.

Throw it against the dumpster, Albeck. Yeah, just to get, you know, really get some... I want to get some dirt out of it. I want to mix it together. You know, this bum jizz laying around. I want that to get in here. You know, really make it tasty. You know what I mean?

Good Lord. Fucking disgusting. So, yeah, Fiero comes back. And when they come back, they come back earlier than they said they were going to come back on purpose so they could scope it out from a distance. And they're scoping it out. They park kind of across the street. And they're like, all right, let's see what he does.

Let's see if he does anything. After a couple minutes, they see him pop out from around a corner. He's got a white cardboard box in his hand. Yeah. White box. A few minutes later, they see him walk around a corner with this box and disappear. Yeah. A few minutes later, he comes back around the corner.

This time, no box. No box. No box. Yeah. It's a little. What's in the box? What's in the box? Yeah.

It's a very what's in the box moment. So they're very intrigued about this. So they go,'s let's go talk to him what do you say he just that's weird okay let's check it out so brad pitt and morgan freeman's yeah in a car around the corner that's what's happening right now it's a definite what's in the box here so they go in and they say that kip was nervous and confused when they met him. They said he was just kind of off. Talking about how much he envies the cops. Yeah, he's the best. So they said that Kip claims that he sticks to his story.

He says, look, I got in an argument with my wife. She'd gotten a Lincoln. They had a Lincoln. They got in a fucking Lincoln and she drove away. I don't know what to tell you. That's all I know. I'm here with the pizza.

I don't know. This is it. So then they said, but we were told that you sold the car last week for money, and he didn't have a real good answer about that. And Fiero, Detective Tommy Fiero, he said, quote, he was very careful in thinking about his answers. Nothing was, you know, where did she go? She took the car and left.

It was very measured and very, yeah, making sure I'm saying the right things. So then he lets both of them into the restaurant. Kip does. He says, all right, guys, fine. You can come in and look around. Once inside, they notice, well, the detective notices drippings that resembled blood on newspapers by the oven. Yeah. And in addition to that, a pan of what was what

they called quote cooked material in the sink they didn't know what it was it was just like a pan of cooked food yeah something unidentifiably overcooked and in the sink water was running into the pan at the time of this whatever shit was on there now Now, Fierro turned off the water, Detective Fierro. While doing so, he says that he recognized the smell of burnt flesh. Which is a disgusting smell. It's the worst smell you'll ever smell. Don't want that. Yeah.

Before you really make a good cut and season it, meat smells terrible. And people meat would be grosser than anything. When I blew up my hand, I know what that smells like. It's the worst the closest i and i took so i was in line at the at the post office getting our p.o box stuff yeah and there was a man behind me wearing like vietnam gear whatever he was just talking to me and he was just he just kept talking to me so he i told him thank you for what he did whatever and then uh he said you ever smelled burned flesh and i was like this just got real fucking weird but actually i have so we've had flesh? And I was like, this just got real fucking weird. But actually, I have. So we had a quick conversation.

I was like, I blew up my hand when I was a kid, and I showed him my hand. And then I was like, the closest I've smelled to it is when the dentist drills your teeth. And he goes, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, oh, my God, this is fucking creepy. I want out of this conversation. This guy's got bad shit happening that he's thinking about right now. But it's true.

That's the closest that you'll get to it without burning flesh. flesh yeah we hit a deer one time yeah it was dead in the road and we it was in the road it was at night when oh shit me and my friends were like 18 and we decided couldn't go around it either way because it would have hit with the tire so we had to try straddle it yeah and instead it it burned it with the fucking exhaust pipe we took off it wasn't the car wasn't tall enough. Yeah. So a layer of the deer ended up under the car. Oh, my God. Which, after you drive about five minutes, was cooking this horribly decrepit deer meat. So then we had to pull over and with a stick try to, it was the grossest thing I've ever done.

Happy 18th birthday to me. It's on my 18th birthday. Yay. Here I am removing burnt deer flesh with a stick can't smoke enough weed in this car to make that smell we try we honestly did we were smoking cigarettes and we whatever the hell we could anything unbelievable it was terrible it was felt like henry hill and good if i hit a skunk karen all right jesus fucking terrible so yeah this is bad stuff water's running into the pan and the burnt flesh.

It's at this point they're like, okay, hold on. We don't know what's going on. I smell burnt flesh. There's meat of undetermined origin, indeterminate origin meat here, blood drippings. It is a restaurant, so meat and blood drippings, whatever. But the burnt flesh smell, that's not normal. What kind of tacos you making here, sir? Yeah, this isn't Jack in the box mister so uh what they do is they back out of here and they start looking around the promise

premises in the property they want to know what's in that box they go outside and they find the white box pretty quickly yeah it was on the front porch of a neighboring home there's a little another home right next to them yeah and sitting on the front porch right there like you know like amazon left you a delivery like an amazon package was this white box so they go well let's go get that white box uh inside the white box was a charred and severed partial head oh my god it was an actual head it's part of the head it's really seven oh it's seven it's skull pieces bananas burnt and charred skull and head pieces. Delivered to a friend.

You just put it next door. What the fuck? On the porch. What, are you framing them? That's Amazon. They won't look twice. That's what you do. Knock, knock.

Who's there? Pride! I didn't order this. I did not order this. I better send one. Someone's going to want this. They're going to be missing their head. What the shit?

Return to sender. So, yeah, at this point, they go, okay, that's a new development. That could be Patty. This is a problem. Then Fierro said that he noticed a 30-gallon trash can that seemed out of place in the house, because most people don't keep those

in their house. 30 gallons is a lot. Also, strong smell of marijuana when he entered the residence fiero uh then leaves uh they go outside to talk a little bit more about this the two cops do they're like there's like a head in the box he's in there this shit's getting weird what do we do here they go back in and now kip is lying on the living room floor now he's just like sprawled out sprawled out on the floor so they're like what is he doing here uh so anyway uh they said uh we we opened the box and we found you know a head right in

there that's a problem and they said quote he sat right up really a strong reaction he said you were trying to trick me he began to cry he was very upset that was that was what the cop said so that was he said you're trying to trick me and freaked out and so i swear it's a head they said i'll tell you what i'll prove it's not a trick i'm charging you with first degree murder we don't do that willy-nilly we don't do that for fun surprise surprise april fools that never happens isn't this crazy you're charged with first degree april fools never never once has happened I've never to me anyway uh so yeah so they Jesus Christ they investigate this whole thing they called it a skull portion in the

box you know he was selling it and maybe it was an extra value meal there was fries in there with it normal taco thing they do a 12-hour search of the property and everything because they're like well we got to find the rest of her because it's probably somewhere. They turned up all sorts of other body parts. But they could never be sure whether the entire body was recovered because it was, as we'll talk about this, we'll talk about the state it was in. But two weeks before this, body parts of another woman were found in Ann Arbor. But that was a totally unrelated thing. They arrested the guy who did it. It's a totally unrelated thing they are they arrested the guy who did it it's a totally totally separate thing but at first they were like oh shit yeah uh then they

figured out all that they had nothing to do with each other uh but they said uh this is this is fierro here he said quote i recognized burnt flesh on the counter uh which is fucking disgusting uh yes he said the the cooked flesh the box with the damaged skull. They said they sprayed parts of the house and restaurant with luminol and said that it was everywhere. It just glowed. It was the entire house, basically.

Quote, the kitchen was overwhelming. Oh, boy. He said you didn't, the glow, the blue glow on the floor encounters, quote, you didn't need the lights on. Unbelievable. That's how much it glowed from that much blood.

That's a shitload of blood. A pathologist testified there was too few remains to determine how she was even killed at one point. But they believe that their theory is that he killed her in the apartment by hitting her in the head with a metal bar. They think he then placed her body inside a sleeping bag and took it from the apartment into the restaurant area. And once he was in there, he cleaned the living room area of the apartment, washed the carpets, the couch cushions,

really did a cleanup job. He didn't just fucking... This was a cleanup job, like an organized cleanup job he also moved furniture to cover spots on the carpet that he couldn't get stains out uh yeah luminol tests in the apartment showed blood everywhere uh it was the heaviest on the carpet near the couch that's where they think she fell over the d uh patty's dna was found on the dining room table on the tile in the apartment on the the restaurant floor, in the restaurant sinks, in the sleeping bag, and in his fingernail scrapers. God damn it.

Everywhere. So they believe that he... Did they look anywhere else? Or was that like... Seems like they found it everywhere they looked. That's all it was. It was unbelievable. They found a bag with 40 pounds of bones and

flesh oh my god he took her apart yeah he like boiled her down wow he took this was a bag of 40 pounds of bones holy shit i don't know how much your bones weigh but probably not a lot more than 40 pounds probably like all your bones uh bag of all the ones you could figure out the bones and some flesh in there also. Depends on how big-boned she was. Yeah, that's the other thing. Yeah, she could have been big-boned. But he dismembered her and then baked or broiled or cooked the remainder of them.

Ran her through the pizza oven. Did all this. They think that he cooked her for about 40 hours. Wow. In some cases. There was meat in the oven that they think had been cooked for 40 hours. That's so long. It's so long.

So this obviously people freak the fuck out a little bit about this. They talked to a few of the neighbors and people that know him. This guy named Alex Lazaroff was an 18 year old kid who washed dishes at the pizza place there. So he said he was friends with the couple, too. He said he never saw them fight. He said, quote, he loved Pat pat he loved her with all his heart he's not sure uh you know what to believe here he says he's not sure if this was the brain surgery that caused this or quote if he had some other dark side he never showed anyone he was marijuana that marijuana uh the neighbors were

shocked too one neighbor said, it's pretty creepy. We were laying sleeping in our beds, you know, 100 yards away while he was doing that. I don't know. We were pretty upset about it. Even now to this day, it's kind of hard to think about it, thinking that she went through that. So, yeah, that's right. Another neighbor said the cops were never called there. We never heard of any domestic violence or repeated police scenes there at all.

They just didn't know anything about it. They were grateful, though, that somebody else bought the building and we're planning on making it not a restaurant anymore you can't ever eat there again no food can be prepared no ever in that place tear it down you raise that fucking they don't though they just no we'll talk about it i'll give you an update on the building later on. It's an artist. And it's not an artist colony. You know, this is good. It's not man-on-man rape, but it's got a vibe of depravity and violence, though. It's good. I like it.

I really got to get one with the victim. People suffered here. I can feel it. I can feel it. I like that. 40 hours at least. You know how that goes. So the forensics on this thing, only the bones the bones a broken skull and a few pounds of cooked

flesh remained this is the way they put it uh they said dna evidence from a tooth proved that it was patricia was the victim uh although there's no question it was her but that's there you know so they can't come out and say how do we even know it's patricia he could have been killing some other woman uh another pathologist here a pathologist dr, Dr. Ruben Ortiz Reyes, said he pieced together a skull and lower leg bones of a woman before that had been hacked up

with a hatchet, and he said there was too few remains here, even less here, to put together. They think that Patty was cooked for over 40 hours, and that would still be better

than any pizza made at La Rosa's, like we said. I'm sorry. It's better. You could cook a pizza in that oven today, and I'll eat it above, before fucking La Rosa's. It'll probably be better. La Rosa's. La Rosa's, right? Yeah, La Rosa's.

I would rather have a corpse pie. I'd rather eat a corpse. I'd rather have a little bit of flesh on top of it in place of meatball. So, also a small amount of flesh on top of it in place of meatball. So, also a small amount of weed was found in the apartment. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper.

In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery Plus, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group.

Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family.

But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier.

I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of part one and watching along with part two as it airs on Max starting April 21st. Bye bye. The official Jinx podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. There.

So the mental evaluation, obviously they want to do it. This isn't a normal, this isn't normal behavior. No. We'll say, you know, and then a little rare, a normal, this isn't normal behavior. No? We'll say. You know. And then. A little rare. A little weird.

Yeah. A little aberrant, we'll say. And then the defense attorney hears that he, two weeks before that, he had his brain poked around on. So, you know, they want to get him checked out. He gets sent to a state psychiatrist here and everything. And the state psychiatrist on the prosecution side says that he is competent to stand trial they said uh an arts family psychiatrist also said that he that they hired

said that he understands the charges and is able to assist his defense attorney and his name is joseph phillip and we'll talk about him because he's a fucking idiot and he's a judge now it's fucking idiot starts like that. Oh, God, this guy's an idiot. Best story ever. I already know it. Guy is such an idiot. Not even for his trial for his later shit.

One of the doctors says, quote, he remember he said he remembers trying to dispose of her body. So there's that. This is Dr. Gerald Del Dotto. Dr. Gerald Del Dotto. He says that his memory of events, Kip's memory of events since he had brain surgery is diminished and often often requires verbal reference. You have to remind him. Remember this?

And then you went here. Oh, yeah. OK. Yeah. But he doesn't remember it at first. So another another psychiatrist said, quote, he's able to converse in a logical, rational manner. He's able to give a description of the events in question. So they're saying that now there's a priest that came to visit him in jail at his request. This is a shaver, Father Shaver here.

He says that he's never called a trial, by the way. But he says that arts confessed to him in jail told him about it and arts told him quote i didn't know it was patty is what he said and we'll talk about what his claim is uh he says that he it was he uses it he said it later on he'll say i didn't know it was patty he's talking about a hallucination that he had this This is what he's discussing here. Now this, this shaver, the father shaver,

he, his, he said that arts told him quote, that the arts quote, described being asleep, being jolted, being terrified and striking out with an object that was near to him. And his shavers said,

quote, he had the strong sense that Pattyty was just a presence to him uh i remember i just remember that arts felt this presence as he was waking now he says he will say at this point arts that he woke up and claimed that patty was a demon before him and that's kip kip says this kip says he killed patty because he woke up she was there and she wasn't patty she was the devil okay he saw a demon devil in front of him and said i better hit this with a metal pipe as you would if a demon devil popped up before you you would whack it with a pipe and he said that's what it was and then he whacked it with a pipe and then after it was dead

it turned back into patty and then it was like, oh, I just, oh, no. The devil couldn't really. He's a shifty bastard. Wow. Look what he did. Now I'm in trouble. So that's his claim here. That's what he's going to go with.

Okay. Not a good defense. Not a great defense. But if you just had brain surgery two weeks before, it's better. It's a better defense. Especially he's never been in trouble in his life. There's not been like, you know, he's been beating the shit out of her for the last 10 years.

This is like, everything's fine. He has brain surgery. Two weeks later, he's cooking his wife for 40 hours and putting her head in boxes on neighbor's porches. They have to, it seems like they were just on, you know what I mean? Just on basic cause and effect or just basic coincidence. You would imagine that that's probably something to do with it i would imagine so this is what i would like to call the dude

what the fuck moment every moment in our every one of our stories there's a moment where it's just like dude what the fuck what the fuck like this is where we're at now he's killed his wife he's done all this shit now he's saying she's a demon that he had to beat with an iron bar. This is a good what the fuck moment. The prosecution says, oh no, this was premeditated, deliberated, the whole thing.

That's their thing. They say that, their prosecution says they have evidence that Kip and Patty had marital difficulties. They say in 1992, Patty consulted with a divorce lawyer telling him that there was physical and emotional abuse in the marriage now no that was the last

anybody had ever heard of that was 1982 yeah seven years ago so we don't know if we have no idea if that just went under the radar or if there was abuse or the abuse got worse or it's that we have no idea they said that uh the prosecution also contends the marital difficulties continued after that time they say about two and a half years before patty was killed that patty told her friend that kip tried to suffocate her with a pillow so that's uh that's a thing that they bring up. They also say that there is ongoing tension in the marriage because of Kip's use of marijuana and alcohol. Okay.

The, uh, the, uh, Patty was especially upset that Kip was continuing to use marijuana after his brain surgery, which let your brain clear up first. It's also Jackson. There's drug addiction. Yeah, that's true. Oh, and bad back to his back is all fucked up. Not to, but then again, if my head hurt from brain surgery, I'd probably want to smoke back is all fucked up not to but then again if my head hurt from brain surgery i'd probably want to smoke some weed i probably want to do a lot

better than percocet so anyway yeah that was a problem they say that was a contention and that was a big problem here they said that when he got home from the hospital he returned home he immediately went and smoked a joint that's that was what he said that's what she said or that's what the prosecution say they said this angered and concerned patty and uh patty was always on the phone and that was a source of tension between them also i guess after the surgery he got like suspicious of her on the phone all out of nowhere he was just like what are you doing on the phone who are you talking to this when he came home from the hospital before that it wasn't like that apparently so uh but they say the main and this is a big one jimmy now everyone can relate to this is a big fight this is the big one this was the main big marital difficulty they were at odds over a pig roast yeah so like whether to have it or not

well no okay he had had a pig roast and apparently this was this was over the edge apparently she loves pigs how many times have we what the fuck and all of this is 130 episodes is episode 130 we've never had someone even even a prosecution claim that someone murdered someone over a pig roast argument this is a new a new level for us right here. Apparently, Kip had a pig roast nine days before he went into the hospital, and Patty was pissed off about the pig roast because she didn't want all those people over, and it cost money.

And she was mad that he was spending money and having people over. Yeah, because we're selling our car to make ends meet. Well, that's after the surgery. Are you having a fucking pig roast? This is before they knew he had to have surgery. This is because it was an emergency surgery. Oh, my God.

This shit carried on. They had money troubles before that. But I mean, this is what I mean. But this is just a typical marital thing. He did something. She didn't like it. And she spent money that he didn't want. That's what happens.

It happens. She threw it in his face for a month. It happens. Yeah, exactly. So she was mad. And apparently the, jesus christ the corn that he bought for the pig roast had bugs in it and these bugs infested the kitchen restaurant what so that's the other reasons like you have this pig kitchen in the restaurant is now infested

with bugs from his pig roast corn oh god damn it she's mad that he had the pig roast to begin with she's mad he spent all his money and the shit that he spent money on infested with bugs from his pig roast corn. Oh, God damn it. She's mad that he had the pig roast to begin with. She's mad he spent all his money and the shit that he spent money on infested the restaurant with bugs. God damn it. She's super fucking mad at him, as you can imagine. And she's got ground to stand on now.

Yeah, that's what I mean. And apparently they tried to fumigate the restaurant themselves, you know, some home fumigation, which, you know, that's normal. People do that. He was convinced at this point that the exposure to the bug spray triggered his brain hemorrhage. That is his strictly non-medical theory of cause and effect.

Basically, it's so weird when you, and this is medically, they talk about this all the time. People make diagnoses on themselves based on cause and effect when they have nothing to do with each other. No. It's just a coincidence because people's brains look to put things. They've got to find the blame. You look to compartmentalize things.

You look for, if there's a cause, you look for where's the effect. I need to know it. I need to know why something happened. I need to fix this. So you make shit up. Especially when you need a solution for something so you make shit up in your own head basically uh so he told several people of his belief and he indicated that his hemorrhage was patty's fault because she sprayed him with bug spray oh god so patty and her fucking shit bug spray sprayed him gave him a hemorrhage blood clot surgery next thing you know

here we are oh my god that's that's what he that's what he told people now what are they smoking weed or something jesus what has he got brain damage or something somebody poking around in his brain with a scalpel or some shit so this is unbelievable his doctor's assistant who was his regular doctor uh saw him a few days before this was like a checkup on the surgery a few days before the murder and he says that at this point uh kip was still ranting and raving blaming patty for the bug spray like he's checking me he's like i wouldn't be sitting here if patty didn't spray fucking bug spray all over me and give me a goddamn brain hemorrhage.

So that's he's still going off about that. So also, in addition to their evidence of marital discord, as they like to call it, the prosecutor wants to present evidence that in July 1998, the year before, Kip had talked to a guy named David Whiting and indicated that he wanted to quote. He wanted Patty to, quote, come up missing. So this is they're saying that he tried to hire a hitman or some shit here pretty big accusation yeah uh kip had apparently asked whiting if he knew anyone who could do it that's what he said do you know anyone who could do it and in 1998 they say kip also complained to virgil wirebaugh uh which about his terrible name virgil your name's awful so it was a complaining virgil i don't know how to spell either of those virgil what the hell is wirebaugh what the hell kind of name is that uh this was jesus christ man

this was virgil wirebaugh is patty's uh son-in-law okay Okay. So Patty's daughter's husband. Got it. Here. And she, he was telling, Kip was telling Wirebaugh that Patty really knew how to push his buttons and know how to get him pissed off. And he also, at that point, Kip inquired whether Wirebaugh ever got so mad at his own wife

that he felt like killing her or even having her killed. I mean, you don't have to do it yourself. Just, I'm saying, do you ever want her dead talking about his stepdaughter yeah he's talking about yeah you ever wanted to kill my stepdaughter right that's normal uh because their mom's a pain in the ass yeah she's a i assume it rolls you know it's genetic so maybe it skips a generation if you have kids watch out she's gonna be a pain in the ass so he also wire boss says the kip also pondered and wondered and inquired how

much maybe it would cost to find a killer what do you think a hitman goes for these days literally like you're asking you know what do you think a cabin up north would go for or you know a 10-foot boat or some shit like some shit you don't need basically yeah i wonder what that costs what five ten grand what could they cost what's a yoga mat these days? I don't know. Yeah, let's find out. Jesus Christ. So after his surgery, he talked to Weyerbaugh, Kip did, and said that Patty was treating him like a child and treating him like he was stupid because, you know, he was not from the brain surgery. And so it was pissing him off.

And he was mad at Patty for treating him like he was stupid and a child. There's also evidence that they say in the early 1980s, way back, way back, that Kip had a conversation with a man named Michael Willis about the capture of a famous serial killer. During that conversation, this is a 20-year-old off-the-cuff conversation about a serial killer. Do you remember every dumb thing you said to somebody about this or how you would get away how many dumb things have i said god lord he said during the conversation that uh kip indicated in a low voice that he could commit a perfect murder he would cut the person up and boil the meat so that the corpse would not stink

then he could throw the meat out in a dumpster just like restaurants do. They throw out old meat all the time. As long as it doesn't stink, no one will know the difference. Is that a thing? That's what he said. I don't think that's a thing. Why? I don't think you can boil meat and then just throw it out and it doesn't stink. It's still going to stink.

It's still got to rot, right? You're going to take some of it out of it, but it's still going to stink. It's fucking meat. It's meat. What do you think? The Gambino family didn't think of that? No, it doesn't't work i think the mob would have gotten away with a lot more no they figured you got to cut it up into parts and bury them separately that's what you did little by little yeah that's the dummy so that's i mean we just had that conversation now 20 years

from now if i'm up on murder charges and in a podcast 20 years ago he said that this is that's what i'm saying who knows what people say 20 years ago but still uh prosecution says that the evidence is there's tension between the two of them you know the married couple that kip contemplated killing patty the year before she was actually killed and at the time of her death he blamed her for his health predicament so uh there you go this this this supports premeditation deliberation the whole deal now the they also said the defendant told inconsistent stories about what had occurred he actively lied to both the victim's relatives and the police which is all true he very cover up behavior he engaged in a great effort to try to cover up his crime i would say one of the

greatest efforts i've ever seen maybe yeah this is like i mean i'm not talking he didn't do a good job and it wasn't a great thing to do but effort it's him and like raymond mata the guy who tried to dispose of the three-year-old to be killed by hiding his skull in the the ceiling tiles and then feeding meat and flushing it down the toilet giving it to a dog right whatever he could do it's a solid effort to make it all disappear this is way worse because he cooked i mean he's taking 40 fucking hours oh yeah he just cooked it down slow cooker yeah but just a reduction sauce i think he figured if i cook it to char yeah it won't smell like anything it'll be petrified almost it'll just be nothing so i guess that was his thought i'm not sure here uh now the prosecution opening a trial here they said he's not suffering some from psychosis and he just killed his wife

because they argued about his marijuana hand that's their claim uh they said uh when they got the jury in here it took five hours to get 14 jurors and two hours and 20 minutes for opening statements so these people had a long fucking day. These jurors had a long day. The prosecutor portrays arts as a substance abuser who killed Patty to end a marriage filled with strife and a man who cooked his wife for nearly two days. He said, quote, Pat Patty was probably in that oven for 30 or 40 hours.

He told the jury, uh, he talked at length about her charred remains, the smell of human flesh and blood splashed throughout the apartment and restaurant he'll call witnesses the prosecutor says who will say that kip has been fascinated with murder for years oh for fuck uh how many hundreds of thousands of people right now would that apply to that we're are hearing our voices literally hundreds of thousands of people are like uh-oh uh-oh i better better cover my tracks here how do you delete podcast history

jesus christ uh said they've he's been fascinated and even talked of cutting up and boiling a body to conceal evidence in the early 80s since we talked about he said evidence will show that he bludgeoned his wife on their couch placed her body in a sleeping bath and bag then systematically baked and boiled the remains over two days while his family wondered where she was. He says, quote, he had the presence of mind right off. He had the most effective means to get rid of that body in his restaurant, which he is definite cover up. He's definitely trying to cover it. Yeah.

Defensa opening, on the other hand, just Joseph Philip, Joseph, Joseph Philip idiot. He doesn't dispute that that Kip killed Patty. That's kind of hard to do. He killed her. That's it. If he didn't do it, he was fucking there. He definitely knows who did. He is going to argue instead that Kip was not guilty by reason of insanity because his brain hemorrhage or his surgery to repair the brain hemorrhage messed something up in his brain.

Your brain is excessively fragile. And any little weird thing can make you a different person. Absolutely. So this Philip, he said he talked for an hour. He talked about the arts as a happy couple who hung out together, worked together, did everything. He says he's going to call up family members and friends and customers who said they never detected drug or alcohol abuse, nor did they see any marital problems. He says, uh, now on the other hand, um, the prosecutor says he's going to show the jury videos of body parts, uh, and shit like that. Philip says, I'm going to show you different videos.

I'm going to show you videos of the arts is having fun together on a trip to Nantucket and with family members on Christmas 1998. He says, quote, you're not going to see treacherous undercurrents of placid water. That's what he said, because that's what the prosecutor said. There was treacherous undercurrents in that placid water. Oh, boy. That's nice. Yeah. You have to say that in a southern accent.

As a prosecutor that says that, he almost has to have a southern accent. He has to affect one, even if he doesn't have one. So they also say that Kevin's been treated for depression with Prozac, and it's been used as his defense before. But they said if you mix the Prozac thing with the blood clot, you might have something here. That's a lot of drastic mental change all at once. So two psychological experts who examined kip talked about uh their his version of events they said uh one said that he said he fell asleep on in the living room patty woke him up at which point he hallucinated thinking that she was the devil and struck her

with the closest object he could find which happened to be a metal bar now after killing her he said that then he realized that he struck his wife. Oh, God. She just went and morphed back into Patty. He's like, oh, man, the horns went away. Tail dried up. Oh, shit. Damn, she's pretty.

Oh, man, I like Patty. What's the closest thing to your couch, James? To my, not a metal bar. That's not a thing. There's not a metal bar anywhere. You fell asleep on your couch. My coffee table. You'd have to pick up a coffee.

A water bottle. I'd have to pull a fish off the wall. I was going to say a TV from the wall. I could hit her with the PlayStation 4. I got a picture of Dolly Parton. I'm not going to. I've got nothing that's killable. Right over the head with the Hunter Thompson, Ralph Steadman drawing that I got.

She got me for my birthday. Take that. I love it, but die. that I got. She got me for my birthday. Take that. I love it, but die. If you're in my house and I'm asleep on my couch

and you wake me up, you're pretty much safe. Yeah, I'm not going to. I'll go, huh? Oh, boy. I don't recoil. I don't go, huh? Started swinging

and lashing out at people. That's crazy time. So, yeah, they said that the crime scene video and pictures featured at the trial here showed her charred remains, including about 40 pounds of bones and tissue and part of the head that they found in the box there, which is a lot. It was very it was intense for the jury. So intense that the judge told the jurors that any that he after the case was over or after the end of the days whenever they needed the

county would provide counseling to anyone who needs it wow that's how heavy this shit was incredible yeah so hardcore shit yeah uh so he of course tries to get them to not admit these photographs oh god we can't show that it's awful uh but they they yeah the fucking warning the prosecution says hey we got to show you the bones And then we got to show you that these are the bones that are forensic pathologists reconstructed. So we can show you we did it right. This is all evidence, babe. That's how it works. So the videotape depicts the outside of the area surrounding and the apartment and the restaurant, as well as the interior of the apartment and restaurant kitchen.

of the apartment and restaurant kitchen. It further depicted the porch where the box of bones was discovered, and it contained several minutes showing bones in both the box and spread out on a yellow blanket. So, yeah, they're called disturbing and gruesome by the media, which I would say so. They said that the images of the bones were insufficient to give the jury a full picture of the efforts expended to dismember the body.

That's the other thing. That's why they had photographic evidence of the bones spread on the blanket, and they said it was necessary to show you how much he did. Just a pile of them doesn't do it. They need to spread it out and go, he had to separate every one of those. You know how long that takes? Jesus Christ. So they said it was relevant in the issues of premeditation and deliberation,

and it can help the jury understand all this shit here. They said that the medical examiner reconstructed the skull and theorizing was struck by a heavy object. Like we said, he admitted it was a metal bar. And yeah, they said it has probative value. The judge lets the pictures and the videotape in. There it goes. So now the experts come in to talk about his fucking head so the neurosurgeon who performed his surgery he comes in and testified that kip's brain bleed was quote not acute and that the surgery to fix it had been simple he testified

also that he had not seen any abnormality in his brain after the surgery okay now what's he going to testify to he was all fucked up when I sent him home because he had no insurance? That's the problem here with this. That's why I don't believe this guy, even if he's telling the truth. I'm not saying he's not telling the truth. I don't know.

He might be, but it would also open him up to a lawsuit if he came on and went, yeah, he was pretty fucked up still, but he couldn't pay for it, so we just sent him home. So it's cool. Then he's getting sued by the victim's family.

So I think either way, this is his testimony. It was fine when he left us. Fine when we left me. I don't know. And there's nobody can say any different because that was his medical evaluation. And no one else looked at him. He did say that Kip had a difficult time finding words to express his thoughts after the surgery but he showed no defects in his thought process so they said yeah his brain was okay and he was

thinking things through he just couldn't think of things and remember things like good enough out the door with you isn't that a defect in thought process like something's wrong i would say i don't know it's just one of those deals now uh there's another uh psychologist here who interviews kip and 43 other witnesses before preparing a 77 page report which he submitted to the prosecution and the defense this uh galdi is his name he says that uh kip's personality tests do not show any signs of psychotic or paranoid thinking nor did he did kip show any signs of hallucinations paranoia or psychosis during his time at the hospital of being examined according to his testimony kip told him that a demon had turned over his bed sat on his couch talked to him and threatened his wife so now he tells him that the demon you know

got him awake and then sat down on his cat cracked open, presumably, and been like, I'm going to fuck your wife in the face. And he was like, you will not. And he hit him with a metal bar. Split this joint with me. Yeah. Hold on a minute. He needed more weed, this guy. So then his psychologist, this is amazing, that he hired, that his family hired.

He testifies that Kip told him that a demon had threatened him. He's like, he told me a demon threatened him. I mean, that's, a demon threatens and you got to do something. It's time to fight. Yeah, he said. Find a flat, boy. It's what it is. He said that, you know, he said that the, you know, he doesn't know if Kip was making

his story up as they went along. He doesn't know. But, you know, they thought it was an odd thing that they didn't call the priest to the stand to talk about. He was the first guy they talked that he talked to about any of this. Uh, this, the Galdi guy,

again, he testified that, uh, that Kip never described Patty as a demon or a devil to him until several weeks after the murder. In fact, what he described her as was a jalapeno on a stick. It was pretty,

a very racist jalapeno on a stick. It was pretty... A very racist jalapeno on a stick. Jalapeno on a stick that hates Arabs. Hates them. Not fond of Mexicans either. Very charming white fella not moving his lips. Jeff Dunham hates Mexicans too,

right? He hates everything. I know he hates everything. Yeah, that's what I figured. Jesus Christ. Beat him with his own puppet. But don't say I told you to do it. It's fine. Don't actually do that. So, yeah, that's what ends up happening here. So, yeah, devil, blah,

blah, blah, you know, when the devil shit comes in. Now, Kip's going to present testimony from two neuropsychologists here doctors edward cook and bradley seawick now cook testifies that that kip had an organic psychotic condition both before and after his brain injury thus lacked the capacity to understand the wrongfulness of his conduct he also also testified that Kip had thought Patty was the devil when he killed her. So that's in court. Now, the CWIC guy testifies that Kip's brain injury was severe,

more than the original surgeon said, and affected his ability to think rationally. He's a doctor of clinical psychology and a board-certified neuropsychologist. So he's not like, you know, he doesn't have like incense. He's not like a hippy-dippy. He's not selling you crystals. Yeah, he's not selling you crystals and telling you this will keep your kids from getting measles. You don't need

vaccination. Feel the vortex. Yeah, feel it. No. So he testified that the cerebral bleed was deep, destructive, a severe hemorrhaging stroke uh which not only affected his speech but also affected his ability to think in a logical and rational manner so we have

conflicting experts here one who you know due to his kind of it's it serves the one guy too well to say that his brain's fine yeah because sent him home. So I don't know. Yeah. He says that he believed that the stroke and surgery caused a devastating insult to Kip's nervous system and that Kip suffered a great destruction of nerve cells in his brain. See what concluded that that Kip was in a confused, psychotic state at the time he killed Patty and he suffered from delusions and hallucinations. That would be in accordance with his injuries here. So Seawick also noted that Kip had a history of marijuana use, but explained that he did not think marijuana contributed significantly to his mental illness because it doesn't and didn't. So Seawick also opined that Kip was delirious and psychotic when he killed patty

couldn't appreciate the wrongfulness of his actions prosecution of course calls several rebuttal witnesses a forensic psychologist here uh all this type of thing this guy uh clark charles clark he testifies that none of the psychological tests that he administered to kip indicated any psychopathy at any delusions psychotic psychosis hallucinations none of that shit he testifies that kip had no history of mental illness before the murder and that kip's record showed no sign of mental illness after the murder clark also uh says that kip was not legally insane when he killed patty and he can appreciate everything the gaudy guy said the clot was present in the brain for one or two days and was not acute and the evacuation of the blood clot

was easy and no abnormality was found so he's backing up the other doctor actually did it the cause of the hemorrhage was never determined they're pretty sure it wasn't bug spray but you know outside of that it's very rare that's the case it's up in the air yeah every exterminator would just be clotting every oh my god i can't think uh so after surgery uh he uh he couldn't find words like they said they said his process of thinking wasn't impaired this is the state doctor but his speech was like we talked about uh they said the neurosurgeon testified there was no nerve damage to the brain because they recalled him to make sure of that. Now, he acknowledged the existence of the surgeon does of a hospital note reflecting that Kip had a hallucination in the hospital. He told them of hallucinations.

There's a note in the hospital saying there's a hallucination. He explained, though, the doctor says that this hallucination occurred within a day or two after surgery when he was intensely sick and it was not uncommon for a patient recovering from deep anesthesia to have hallucinations for days yeah but still yeah he was in the hospital going i'm seeing shit doc and they let him out and then he goes home and kills his wife that's crazy that's kind of weird so uh prosecution also calls another doctor here, a cardiologist and an angiologist. I don't know. That's a physician who specializes in diseases

that affect the circulatory system. Yeah, I was going to say vein doctor. Yeah, including blood vessels in the brain. He testifies that he did not see signs of permanent brain damage as a result of the brain bleed so prosecutor in his closing argument he says i can tell you there was lots of problems in that marriage and he brings up this this phrase again and there were lots of dangerous undercurrents underneath the placid waters of that marriage he loves that shit somebody just saw lake placid and it's jack to use something either that or it's from like a poem

that he read in the 10th grade and he's like i've been using this to try to pick up girls for long time i just been going you when i look at you it stirs up dangerous undercurrents underneath the placid waters of my pants he read some civil war soldiers letter home and he goes robert frost i am using that shit one day i won't do it one day that is gonna earn me one blow job yeah now the prosecutors it's gonna happen it's gonna get me at least something the prosecutor's argument here is uh annoying because there's truth in it. It's like when a politician says something that's shitty, but there's 10% truth in it. So it gets more credence than it should because 90% of it's still false.

But people just take, well, that part's true. Any politician, whatever. It doesn't matter. We do have a border. Yeah. No. Yeah. It could be anything.

You know what I mean. Yeah. I didn't even mean like in a national sense i meant just anything they use you know i just mean does any any typical uh argument over a border it's just we do have a border yeah yeah this shit i'm saying is clearly true yeah so however you feel about it we're not getting involved right now so the prosecutor here he argues at the end that patty's first husband was abusive and that is the normal pattern for it's a victim's normal pattern to become involved with another abusive person. That means that Kip's abusive. OK, now, OK, while that is true, while statistically, if you if you are in abusive relationships, probably you came from an abusive home as a child for the most part.

Statistically, majority of people came from an abusive home and the majority of those people do end up finding other abusers. Not all the time though. And that doesn't mean that he is. And you can't use that. Most of the time this happens as a definite legal argument that he's definitely an abuser.

Like that's, that's what I mean. There's truth in what he says, but he uses it in a way that's not meant to be used. Just because the statistics are there doesn't mean that this particular case falls into those fucking statistics. Cocaine's supposed to be, you know,

a numbing agent. It's not, you know what I mean? We found other uses for it. That's what he's doing. We don't use it in dental school anymore. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So they said there was no testimony to support an argument, that the defense says there's no testimony to support that argument, that it was her normal pattern to become involved with abusive men.

The defense made an objection to this argument, and the trial court cautioned the jury at this point that the closing arguments had to be based on evidence or reasonable inferences of evidence and you can ignore anything that you don't think fits with the evidence. But this guy can say any crazy shit he wants because it's the closing. What? Yeah, basically, it's up to you now. The closing argument's the wild fucking west.

So you can object. You can do that? You can object. Like in the OJ trial, they objected constantly to their shit just to throw them off. But you can object to shit, but they won't strike anything. The judge will just say, use your judgment.

That's it. Got it. Use your judgment. And if this doesn't fit in with the evidence that you've just heard over the course of the trial, then don't take that into consideration. That's strategic as fuck on the part of whoever's doing the closing argument. Prosecution. Yeah, they know what they're doing.

They know how to close the door. Just to make sure that the jury understands what to do. Yeah. So the jury begins deliberating on a Friday at about 2.30. And about 2.30, I'm sorry, on Friday. And then about 2.30 p.m. Monday, they are ready. Wow. So he is in for the verdict.

And it is guilty. Yeah. Not shocking. All right. He's guilty here. Sentencing, and it is guilty. Yeah. Not shocking. All right. He's guilty here. Sentencing, though, comes up, and he doesn't have much to say in the whole thing. He still contends that he was mentally ill. Welcome back, everybody.

She was a demon. Yeah, demon. I killed the devil. You're welcome. You're welcome. You're welcome. I did not get a thank you. Please be lenient. Your Honor, I would like to just address the court and say, you're welcome you're welcome i did not get a thank you uh please be lenient your honor

i would like to just address the court and say you're welcome you may proceed watch this is what he's gonna let me out now this is the part where it's easy all right get those cuff keys ready let's do this i got shit to do this is you sir yeah may fuck off life without parole wow so no parole for him at all that's steep that's a steep one yeah that's that's that's that's the worst they hit him hard that's the worst this is probably worse yeah that's banging him pretty hard there so the prosecutor said the jury was convinced that he planned the murder and deliberated uh deliberated the whole thing and uh cooked the remains and everything. He says, quote,

what was compelling to the jury is what he did immediately before and after the crime, his extensive efforts to take care of the body. The jury figured it was thoughtful and goal-directed, not the mark of insanity, which that's fair.

That's very fair. Members of Patty's family spent, they were there the whole time at the trial. Her daughter was there. By the way, her daughter's name is Patty. Oh, no. Yeah, we got a junior situation.

So Patty, she says, Patty Weyerbaugh, she is now a member of Patty and Virgil Weyerbaugh. They said that now that this is over, the family can try to start living again. She said, quote, I don't have to be scared anymore. I don't have to be scared for my children. Which mean he was in prison i don't think he wasn't coming for you he wasn't coming for you he doesn't know you exist probably he's out there so he just wants to know if you're a pain in the ass too are you the devil that's all he wanted unless you're

the devil that's all he was asking virgil yeah that's it so yeah yeah that's true virgil could have killed him she should be afraid of vir her right yeah they had that conversation so the defense attorney here this joseph philip idiot uh he argued that arts that arts was innocent by reason of insanity and that he he uh he said he warned kip that it's going to be a tough sell so i told him he said quote the tremendous scare factor was so tough to overcome because he said of the nature of the thing and the pictures said once we showed him those pictures and they looked over at him and said that's who did that you're a monster period you can't over and it's true when you have a case like this of shocking horror yeah to me that that says more crazy yeah but a lot of times when they look at it they're just like oh god we

have to we have to put that make that right yeah because that is terrible right i don't want that to happen which jesus it's awful so uh yeah it was a nine-day trial the whole thing anyway uh kip's dad he says that uh he says he believes his son's insane he said this verdict doesn't sit well with him at all he says quote there was no truth in their case he didn't even know what color suit on he had on today he's saying my kid is a fucking loopy son of a bitch okay he knows nothing uh yeah so his stepdad said quote this is his stepfather quote i'm happy with the decision but i feel sorry for his family not me i ain't his family i'm just a stepdad i ain't in this shit no more super weird i feel sorry for his for his family he's still married to his wife he just

the set he's probably been married for 20 years he just separated himself all these people here they got problems i feel bad for him fucking crazy what are we gonna do with these people huh this is why we go to my family's house on thanksgiving jesus christ he says quote both families lost a lot i lost them both either way Either way it went. So I don't know. I ain't my fault. I disowned all of them. You know how it works. There's nobody seeing demons all around.

Now, April 2003, he appeals. He argues that the photos should have never been let in, and he argues about experts. That's a big thing here. He argues that the trial court also abused its discretion by admitting certain evidence including statements he made before the killing evidence of his marijuana use and evidence that patty consulted with a divorce attorney which all seem like very relevant evidence uh they said they reviewed everything and there was no problem there they said that the the first thing he challenges that he uh 16 or 17 years before crime, he disposed how he described how he would dispose of a body. And he says there's nothing to support any of this.

It's too remote in time to demonstrate any kind of premeditation. You don't premeditate for 17 years. Generally, it's very rare what he's saying here. And he claims that that statement, along with his other statements about killing or causing the disappearance of Patty, were offered to make him appear depraved i don't think you need to say anything all you need to do is show a picture of fucking cooked meat and a skull in a box 40 pounds of bones in a bag how'd you like to be his neighbor and put the box on the thing and you go fuck put him away i don't care jesus christ he says also that uh expressing thoughts of killing the victim and explaining the best way to dispose of a body were not directly relevant to issues of premeditation and deliberation, which is questionable. They talk about the he says that the passage of time should kill all that shit.

He also says that even if his statements were relevant, they should have been excluded. He fails to explain or rationalize this position. They say in the court documents, they just say that he says it should be excluded and then doesn't explain why. So they're like, we don't know how to answer this as a court, as an appeals court. He seems to have dropped the issue, so we'll just give up on it and move literally moving on to the next thing. I found that fucking hilarious.

Well, it's damaging to my case, Your Honor. He trailed off in a court filing. don't you can go over that you edit the stuff i don't have an ending for this fuck it i'll take this part out he was like and you can't do that because there's a all right part another thing and c says that the fuck do you expect super weird. So this doesn't help me and this doesn't help me. And going on. Yeah, it's very, very strange. He also says that he challenges the testimony of a divorce attorney, which whom with whom Patty consulted. And finally, challenges the evidence of his marijuana use.

He concedes that he did use post-surgery use marijuana post-surgery uh he argues that the testimony about his pervasive use of marijuana in the years before the killing was irrelevant and didn't support the prosecutor's theory that marijuana was a source of ongoing marital discord uh they said the appeals court disagrees with that and they said it is relevant for reasons of their tension and shit like that they said the testimony indicated that his marijuana use was the source of marital tension for many years and that after the surgery it caused patty anger and concern uh so that's what they say there they said that the record does not indicate the jury gave the marijuana evidence undue or preemptive weight that it was used for improper purpose or that its use was

unfair so he also claims prosecutorial misconduct he says that the uh closing argument when he said but i can tell you there's lots of problems in that marriage there was lots of dangerous undercurrents underneath the placid waters of that marriage his the argument here uh they said he it was objected to and they told him to move on basically uh they say that capille's court says prosecutor's not testifying he's trying to convey to the jury that there's while there's no direct evidence of what participated the uh the crime there's indirect evidence to support a conviction of first degree murder so that's what they're saying he can kind of you have a lot of latitude in an opening and closing So that's what they're saying. He can kind of, you have a lot of latitude in opening and closing argument.

And that's basically what they say. You're never going to get anything based on that ever. I went all the cases we've seen. No one ever, that never works. It just never works. Also, he alleges that during his closing argument,

the prosecutor misstated the testimony of two doctors, which actually he did do. He testified that a drug induced vasculitis could cause intercerebral intracerebral bleeding in someone with a long history of drinking and drug use and the doctor never said that never testified to that never wrote that not fucking the guy just pulled it out of his ass wow literally pulled it out of his ass uh so yeah that guy's not a doctor that said that no the lawyer said that the doc the lawyer said the doctor said that and a doctor that said that? No, the lawyer said that. The lawyer said the doctor said that, and the doctor never said that. What kind of word is that?

Intracerebral? Intracerebral. Who even fucking knows that? He took parts of other doctors' testimonies that were... And wove them together. He just remembered it as one fact where there were different things together. He said, because another person who actually performed the surgery did testify that drug- drug induced vasculitis could have caused the hemorrhage. And but he did not in this context.

So he was saying that could cause a hemorrhage. But the prosecutor said he made it. So this doctor said it definitely did or could have and then put it in another person's mouth. So both of those things were wrong. Identified the wrong expert. So also the defendant here, Kip, challenges the prosecutor's argument that Patty's first husband was abusive and that whole thing here. There was no testimony to support an argument that the victim had a normal pattern of becoming

involved with abusive men. They made the appeals court says the council made a timely objection, challenged the argument, and the judge said that the judge told the jury that if it doesn't fit with the evidence, don't use it. So they say he was not deprived of a fair trial. They say, quote, the defendant told inconsistent stories about what had occurred. He engaged in great effort to try to cover up his crime to dispose of the body in this bizarre fashion that he had previously contemplated. That's what the appeals court said. And that was that.

He said, fuck off. Take a walk. So 2008, he wants a new trial. New trial. Based on. Yeah. He says he should get a new trial because new evidence out there shows that he was in a Jesus Christ. I will have a lot to say about this.

A state of marijuana induced psychosis. psychosis at the time of the slug. Okay. Let's put some fucking myths to rest right here. Because a lot of people don't smoke weed. They don't know anything about it, whatever. Let's put some shit to rest here. You've seen me smoke plenty of weed. Have you ever seen a psychosis occur? No.

Weed makes people lazy have you ever do you know a harder working human being very few and fucking no you know what i'm saying uh this is what i mean the stereotypes and all this shit is bullshit and it doesn't fucking matter it depends on if you can handle it and enjoy it and and function if a person's a lazy loser to begin with and then smokes weed he will continue to be a lazy loser but it's not because of the weed it's that's who he is and that's that's that's a it's a supplement to that it helps that it's a cherry on top and people that that smoke weed and don't like it you generally don't have it's not right this

guy seems to have like a habit and he enjoys it and he's using it a lot. He's like you where you function well under lots of people smoke weed and can't handle it. And they like, it's not their thing. They have like paranoia. You don't have fucking psychosis. No, you don't freak out. You just go, holy shit, this is no good. You've been how many people's lives have been saved because I smoke weed in your presence.

Honestly, that Denver live show last year, there would have been blood because i smoke weed and your presence honestly that denver live show last year there would have been blood on the walls if weed wasn't legal in denver and i wasn't heavily medicated i would have fucking killed those people for that bullshit incompetence not the people that came it was the people not the people who came the listeners were great the people that operated and kept you guys outside for 45 minutes too fucking long started the show late because they couldn't figure out a goddamn projector right like people have been doing since the 1950s jesus christ holy shit children operate them it's children operate them at school people used to come home from the 40s we came home from our vacation set up the projector and show everyone our trip

fucking housewives in the 40s could do that shit and these people a bunch of professionals i don't know just can't hook a cord up doesn't seem to work y'all so anyway uh yeah so anyway i think it keeps psychosis at bay right it keeps a lot of people an even keel yeah and the people that it doesn't keep an even keel they don't keep doing it they don't keep doing it yeah exactly it's bad for them right yeah because there is they did a study recently showing that it affects different people different parts of the brain the people who get paranoid yeah there's some people who go i don't know every time i saw weed i just get paranoid i don't like it that's because it affects a different part of your brain yeah it's because you can't separate the you shouldn't smoking illegal no no no literally i know what you're saying but literally

the thc is talking to a different part of their brain that makes them paranoid. Got it. So they're now working on strains of weed that will- Speak somewhere else? That go somewhere else so it doesn't make those people paranoid. How are they doing? It's pretty fucking awesome. They are magical.

I love weed science. Weed science is great. It's unbelievable. Anyone who has a problem with it, eat shit with your IPAs and your fucking, oh, this beer and this, and I'm making it at home. It's a micro brew. Fuck off. Okay? Thank you. Anyway. your ipas and your fucking oh this beer and this and i'm making it at home it's a micro brew fuck off okay thank you anyway and guys that drink beer uh like me that drink it because it's a fucking medication stop with your fucking craft beer stop trying to make something that i

think is delicious and and calm my nerves stop trying to make it fun it's not fun alcohol is not fun no i do it because i fucking hate you and it shouldn't taste like a blueberry muffin no it's the other thing it should be disgusting it should be awful it should be terrible and that's the way life is yes it should taste like my life it should that's right i like my beer like i taste my life like i like my life bitter fucking awful so the jesus christ i'm trying to pair it with your burger it's fine it's yeah come on that's the other thing you enough enough enough fucking flour burger jesus and you know how i feel about the bun so we won't get into that keep your buns dry it's a handle stop stupid don't grease your bun because it looks good on instagram that's what

it is is Is it really? All of this shit, anything you get and you're like, why is this like this? It's because if you take a picture of it under the light, it looks better. That's why. Because if you glaze a bun, then it's shiny and it pops like on a commercial. That's why they want. They want people to take a picture, post it to their Instagram and go, I'm at this restaurant. Is that what fucking happened?

That's what happened. That's exactly what happens. It is. Why else would you put grease on the outside? You could put it on the inside if it was for flavor. It's only been happening for like the past five years. It's happened. That's exactly what happens. Why else would you put grease on the outside? You could put it on the inside if it was for flavor. It's only been happening for like the past five years. It's Instagram. That's exactly what it is.

And all of your food set up in a douchey fashion, that's why. God damn it. Because they want it to look good in a picture. The rest of it, be damned. Who gives a shit? Next year, fucking IPA in the cheesy ass can. Stupid. A white can with fucking simple letters simple letters yes what's the brand

and then beer beer i'll drink it damn it now he says that the dr galdi wrote a letter while the appeals process was going on they went to that dr galdi from before and he says that he wrote in his in his uh in his assessment that uh that kip was likely suffering from marijuana-induced psychosis. Now, he does believe that he was still legally sane, but he said that. Now, Kip claims that the prosecutors, when they took that report, excluded the word psychosis and left that out. And he said that would have gotten him off which it wouldn't have but uh yeah so they say uh yeah he says that the government suppressed evidence that such evidence was favorable to the defense and that the suppressed evidence was material they say evidence is material if there's

a reasonable probability that the evidence had it been disclosed to the disclosed to the defense the result of the proceeding would have been different it's a brady violation they had evidence that they didn't disclose uh it's a lot of that non-syed brady violation shit so the uh the the suppression here they're talking about is this marijuana psychosis but the court says uh uh just because he said that it would have that if they wouldn't have used that at trial anyway is what they've decided the the they say that basically his defense attorneys his strategy was that that kip wasn't even smoking weed when this happened so it was the opposite it was he wasn't even smoking weed so they would have not used he was psycho in a psychosis because of weed so it it was conflictive. So they said you wouldn't have used that. They said that the prosecution argued about the marijuana habit.

And then the defense didn't want to, didn't want to concede that Kip smoked weed after a surgery. That was the whole thing here. So then he also says ineffective assistance of counsel. He argues that Philip was constitutionally ineffective because a trial, he should have called a witness the father shaver who is the the priest who spoke to him a few days after the murder in jail before any psychologist got a hold of him and he says that he told the priest that patty was a demon and the other psychiatrists say that he never told us patty

was a demon until much later so he's like the guy should have called the priest to say fucking demon that's the guy that said it to him yeah demon guy here uh but they said uh for the claim to the to prevail on this claim kip must show that philip's decision to not call shaver quote fell below an objective standard of reasonableness and resulted in prejudice to the trial uh they say that he did not, and Kip can go fuck off. Now, so Kip gets sent back to prison. He keeps trying to. No retrial.

No retrial. 2016, he's still trying to get a new trial. Yeah, 2016, he was still bringing other evidence for it. What about this? Kicked his ass back to his grave. No, sir. No, sir. Now, April 2016 is stupidity stupidity absolute fucking stupidity that makes

me angrier than shit okay the idiot uh philip guy the uh the defense attorney here uh he is he was now uh he's now a judge this moron okay uh this guy goes to schools to tell people about how bad weed is. Oh, no. Yeah. And he uses this as an example. It'll make you kill your wife. Oh, my God.

No one's ever killed their wife while they were drinking. Right. That doesn't fucking happen in every one of our fucking stories. Right. No. No one kills anybody while they're drunk. Jesus Christ. Are you fucking kidding?

The ball's on you. If you're going to do that, you have to sit and talk to the kids about how alcohol will make you kill your wife for five hours. And then you can talk about for 15 seconds that weed might do it, too, because that's the ratio of difference. You fucking asshole. Jesus Christ. He was at a school event in the Western High School in Parma, and he brings us in here. Western High School in Parma, and he brings this in here. A teacher asked the judge about how the criminal justice system is dealing with Jackson County's methamphetamine epidemic.

You know, a real drug. It's bad for you. That one really does. Yeah. That one really makes you kill people. That one would say, yeah, meth will make you kill some people. That shit makes you irrational. The Philip said, quote, we have to figure it out. Why would you put a needle in your vein and shoot heroin up it?

Sometimes, gee, that's the big question. Is that the question? He said that. He said, why would you put a needle in your vein and shoot heroin up it? Gee, because it feels good probably is my guess. Because it works. Because they have problems. Because it gets there faster.

That's why. So then he says, quote, sometimes you have to have that mindset that you want to do it. And what softens up the mind? Marijuana and alcohol. Wow. So he's literally still doing. He's going gateway bullshit. Wow.

Even though we've proved scientifically that's horseshit. What year was this? This is 2016. He's going to schools as a judge, as a man whose opinion matters. Run gateway drug crackpot theories. This fucking idiot's opinion matters when he takes his fucking when he does that all right that shit counts yeah that's the end of it yeah no arguments after that end of discussion right this fucking idiot wow wow uh yeah he says

to soften up the mind he says now i know that might be not be terribly popular around here but that's it i know that might not go with science or any social experiments or anything that we've observed over the last 50 years but i think it's marijuana because i've told my pappy told me it was bad fuck you because i tried it once and i felt bad i didn't feel right and then the girl i was dancing with went and danced with a black fella that's that's who could handle it and he could he danced well because of the marijuana and so i said i ain't gonna do it no more uh he says that uh yeah this is the way it's always been uh he says so quote so the argument that marijuana

doesn't hurt anybody yeah kevin arts took cooked his wife because he was hallucinating over marijuana thought she was the thought she was the she devil at least that's what he told people that's what he's he's fucking saying here he's saying how investigators found weed at the crime scene and then it came out that he smoked weed heavily during the month before that so he must have that's what it was what did it then he tells the kids that uh aren't previously had a fist-sized tumor removed from his brain which is not what happened it was a hemorrhage blood clot definitely not a fist-sized tumor uh he also said that he's against legalization of marijuana and disputes claims that it reduces crime wow well guess what asshole statistically i'll tell you it reduces crime because if you arrest 100 people for weed

because it's illegal and then if it's not illegal you don't arrest 100 people for weed, because it's illegal, and then if it's not illegal, you don't arrest 100 people for weed. Guess how many less people have been arrested? 100 people less crime. That's what it is. When you invent crime based on it, he says, quote, if someone breaks into your house so they can steal stuff to buy marijuana, would you care? Nobody's ever done that. They have to commit crimes to support that habit. Marijuana becomes the habit. No, it doesn't no no you know what happens when you don't have weed you don't

have money you go yeah shit i don't have any weed and then you just watch tv that's what you do a friend that's got weed you've i never ever stolen or fucking i've never heard of anybody ever did that. You don't do that. This is not how it works because it's not an addiction like that. You're not sick from it. It's not... To put that in... You're not scratching.

To put it in with heroin and meth as far as the same level of gotta have it is fucking irresponsible. It's irresponsible. And you're saying this to high school students who know better. They fucking know better. 40% of the kids in this room are stoned.

Listen to this guy going, what the fuck is he talking about? And they know they've been to parties where people are smoking weed. They're sitting there going, this guy's talking out of his ass. That's what you sound like when you say that to kids. They hear, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah. You fucking idiot. It's very Charlie Brown happening right now. Yeah.

And then he says, and the idea that it, quote, frees us up to chase the bad guys. What do you think the bad guys are on most of the time? Marijuana or they're an alcoholic. That's what I see in the system from my perspective. Am I dead wrong? Could be. He then says multiple times that marijuana softens the brain. And if you say fucking Candyman three times in the mirror, it's ridiculous. This guy's an idiot.

Bloody Mary. Bloody Mary. Oh, run. Jesus Christ. He says he hears the same thing through his career. mirror he'll it's ridiculous this guy's an idiot bloody mary y'all bloody mary ball run jesus christ he says he hears the same things over his career i smoked marijuana when i was 11 i smoked marijuana when i was 13 maybe even with their parents believe it or not then they go to heroin because pills are too expensive well marijuana can be expensive too chasing the dragon he says the dragon is that first high they're not the same they're not the same heroin and everybody they're not the same thing as fucking heroin you dummy and i'll say this too

the first time i got stoned i hated it a lot of people do a lot of times doesn't even work the first time you just gotta feel it i'm saying the first time i got stoned i was like yo this is bananas yeah but and then you get high then you get high, then you get high. But it's not high. High is great. Yeah. Stoned is fucked up. Yeah. So then you manage getting high, and then eventually you get stoned again, and then

you're like, oh my God, this is terrible. But it doesn't, this is not, he's completely, has he ever smoked weed before? I'm the case study, Jimmy. I'm the case study. Because 14. And it's, you know why it's not that they they smoke weed when they're 11 and then it makes them a shitty life the reason why they're smoking weed at 11 is because they have poor parental supervision and they come from a shit family right which is why they become a criminal right the weed is just something that they

supplement on the side because their life sucks and it's a little bit of fun for five fucking minutes it's not the cause it's just a fucking side effect the lifestyle that it's a side effect yeah the dragon is that first high he says and time after time after time they keep trying to find that same high again it might start with marijuana they can't find it though then they go to the next drug no they don't 20 years later guess what still on the same one and pretty fucking satisfied with it you've seen people offer me other drugs what do i say fuck out of my face i don't even drink because i found what works for me so fuck you drugs are very specific to people you you do what you do that fits with with what you do your lifestyle right and your your brain chemistry nobody what you do nobody smokes weed with what you do your lifestyle right and your your brain chemistry

nobody what you do nobody smokes weed and goes uh i need more nobody does that it's not a thing no they might want more right but you know what they'll get over it in 20 minutes if it's not there and they'll figure something else out eventually they'll be too stoned to get up and go find it yeah it's not like when you watch dope sick love that's yeah it's a different were they ever looking for weed? Any of those people? If you offered them weed, they'd be like, yeah, okay. You might as well offer me nicotine gum.

What the fuck good is that going to do? I got to go find out. He's the best. He's the best. Yeah. You'll go let a fucking old man suck your dick for crack. That's different. That's different than weed.

It's just different. I'm sorry. It's bullshit. So ridiculous. that's different than weed it's just different i'm sorry it's bullshit so ridiculous so currently uh old uh kip here is a prisoner at the gus harrison correctional facility he's security level two in case you want to know and some fucking uh uh somebody uh put i don't know if it says it's real yeah i don't know how. It's still up. Kip's Taco House. Kip's Pizza Taco House, 2319 West Main Street, Jackson, Michigan.

Now, that's on there right now. On what? That's on everything. You can just look up Kip's Pizza and Taco House. And you can go find it. It'll come up and you can say, order now and all that shit. That says 2319 west main street now the old one in an article his place it listed it at 2319 west michigan avenue but this is 2319

west main street did they just change the street name i don't know i don't know but then i look up i look up 2319 west michigan and it comes up as a remix thing and it shows and you can also find the apartment that they lived in is for rent on the back of the remix yeah like on this off to the side it's like next to it over there so I don't know what's going on but if

there is another Kip's Pizza and Taco House in that neighborhood that is fucked up that's the dumbest name you've ever come up with because bad connotations if there's not that's hilarious that it's up on the internet still and someone's going you want to get up there's this kip's place oh they're closed now they're i wonder if they're permanently closed or what oh yeah he cooked his wife in their place is fucked that small town murder unbelievable that's jackson michigan what a disastrous story that was i'm so glad it's over and there's closure that is a fucking nightmare that was. I'm so glad it's over and there's closure.

That is a fucking nightmare. That was a wild one, right? That's a nightmare. That's horrific. It's horrific. The whole thing's crazy. Ins and outs and what have yous. From beginning to end, it's awful.

It's all frustrating and crazy, that entire case. Everything sucks. It does suck. And if you think it sucks, tell us about it. Give us five stars. Got on iTunes, the purple icon there, and Apple Podcasts, whatever it is, give us five it. Give us five stars. Got on iTunes, the purple icon there and Apple podcast, whatever it is. Give us five stars. Doesn't matter what you say.

Just write whatever. It's not for our ego. It's just for business purposes. For some reason, Apple makes those drive you up the charts. We don't know why. We don't understand it. We don't care. But thank you guys for doing it.

Also, head to shut up and give me murder dot com where you can get everything, all of your merchandise, all of your T-shirts, pocket Robin stuff is up there. You can wear all those T-shirts and things and carry your bag right to a live show. Absolutely. Like tomorrow, we're going to be in Columbus on Friday, August 2nd, and then August 3rd we'll be in Cleveland at the Ohio Theater. So come check us out this weekend. In two weeks, we'll be in Omaha, but that's sold out.

And then the next night in Minneapolis or two nights later in Minneapolis. And that has a few tickets left. Minneapolis, they're going to go fast. So grab those extra tickets and get that thing closed out and make sure you don't get left out in the warm, I guess, because it's summer. In the nice. In the nice, in the not 10 degrees. In the nice weather, in the nice people with the nice attitudes. Don't get left out in the nice. And then L.A. In the nice. In the nice, in the not 10 degrees. In the nice weather, in the nice people with the nice attitudes.

Don't get left out in the nice. And then LA and San Diego in September, right past that. And then we're going down, sat down to the southeast and it's going to be awesome. So thank you guys

for getting your tickets and doing all of that. If you want to follow us on social media so you can know about things ahead of time before they're announced on the show

and things like that, very easy to do. We are at Murder Small on Twitter at small town pod on facebook and at small town murder on instagram you can do that and if you want to be a hero one of our god damn heroes these are the people we we do we talk about these people can you believe that they're this amazing can you believe that they're this nice to us can you believe i don't know how to spell their names this is the conversations that we have literally we will be like if we drive from city to city if we go to columbus then we'll drive to cleveland

and we'll be in the car the whole time going i can't can you believe that man that's amazing that these people would help us and holy shit these are these people if you want to be one of our producers you can do that excessively easily by going to patreon.com slash crime in sports or heading over to paypal and using our email address which is crime in sports at gmail.com or you can get to both of those links right from shut up and give me murder.com but i'm i can't even say it anymore jimmy i want to hear this list because i love these damn people tell me who they are jimmy this week's executive producers executive executive, executive fucking executives are Doug Fields, Katrina Busati, Michael Jones, Andrew, no, Alexander, not Andrea.

What am I doing? Alexander, uh, Pash, Pashia, Pashia, Italiano, Pashia, Pashia, Pashia, Pashia, Pashia, Pashia. Hey, I can't read it. Jordan Bennett. Thank you very much. We'll see you in Cleveland. Yeah, Pascascio. Hey. Hey. I can't read it. Jordan Bennett, thank you very much. We'll see you in Cleveland. Yeah, thank you, Jordan. Devin Reznikoff, Bonnie Klein, Ryan Bender, and Hunter Duchesne. Thank you guys so much.

Appreciate you. Thank you for everything. Amy in Ohio, happy birthday. And Robin Francis turned 50 this month, and she got a new knee. That's a big fucking month. Congratulations. Definitely. Glad to have you thank you uh morgan uh morgan had a had a kowski hot account hoda kowski uh abigail cope no abigail i cook that's what that is very simple karen hunt simplest name

christina bernhardt uh tim no tia harris uh d Dylan Irish, Ryan McCain, Joe Tuttle, TJ Mack. Thank you, TJ. Maggie Keishon. No, what is it? Juwan? Or is that Juan? No, what is that? Jay?

Is that a Jay? Luann, maybe? I think it's Joe. What did I do? Is that a Jay? Fuck. Rowan? Sad. Itan. Sad.

It's really depressing. Watching a grown man struggle to read his own writing. Thomas Smith, Kerrigan O'Connor, Kay Zomerle, yes. Martina Lee-Walonga. Hey. Kelsey Jennison, Nick Taylor, Jennifer Britsman, Shelley Rostron. What is wrong with me? Megan Rudess, Christopher Hughes, Micah Shai.

What is that? Space Lizard, Lucifina. I think that's Dan Cook. That's a Dan Cook. Dan Cook. It's Dan Cook. Dan Cummins. Don't do that to poor Dan. Sorry, Dan. That's a Dan Cook. Dan Cook? It's Dan Cook. Dan Cummins. Don't do that to poor Dan.

Sorry, Dan. Dan's a very talented comedian. I didn't even write his name, so I just mispronounced it in my own head. Adam Udaini, Cheryl Shine, Paige Megliore, Julia Crowley-Ferenka. I'm just going to go and say yes. Do it, Joe. Kairu, Sophia Gamble, Savannah Bell, Crystal Bunt, Nicole Porter. No, Nicholas Porter.

Jesus. Michelle Terry, Ryan Hansen, Joey Painting, Liz Vasquezley, Sidney Condon, Wade Colon, Peyton Meadows, Devin Williams, T. Squeegee, Joel Musfelt, Bram Verhees, Rebecca Anderson, Lauren Demerath. Yes, Demerath. I've said that one a billion times. That would be a lot. Thank you. Billy Compton. Emily with no last name.

Mariah Menhir. Justin Miller. Katie. No, Kate. Hooten Luter. That's what it is. Take your word for it. Chantel Meacham.

Jamie Wistenhofer. No, Wichent. Winchester. Wow. Wistenhofer. That legitimately is what I saw. Luke Ledeman. No, Ledeman.

Or Ledeman. Gary Howard. Got it. Nailed it. Hey, Gary. Thanks, Gary. Thanks for everything. Gretchen Oswalt.

Melissa Honeycutt. Emmanuel Christian. Gabba J. Vizenhut. I don't know. I don't either. Erica? No. Ergogo ergo lucha lucha mano abby crab hill crabble liz leslie kidd alice emily warwick michael costello mary brew um Michael Costello, Mary Brew, Shannon Russell, Steffi with S-T-E-P. Oh, no, it's S-E-P-I. Seppi.

Seppi? Okay. I don't know. Jeff Chambers, Nancy Graham, Darren Mehal, and Jess Stope. Thank you both. John and Debbie Raznikoff, or Rezkowski, Melissa Days. Yeah, I think. Felicity Stratton, Adrienne Perry, Dan McCabe, Bria Gale, Leslie Kidd.

I said that. Mike Costello. I said that. I got all those. Next page. Mary Richards, Tyler Gwill, Brennan Potter, David Albury, Alex Ortiz, Rachel Hilliard Brown, Night Night. That's K-N-I-G-H-T, Kyle Avery, Kieran McGuire, Krista Walker, Aaron Vilela, David Barnhart, Robin Anderson, Felipe Torres,

Retta Ekstrom, Brenna Boone, James Asselta, Julian Hayes Ashley Veo, Christopher Hart Larissa Harris, Trenton Bruntz Anthony Canella, Patrick Martin and all of our Patreon supporters you guys are amazing thank you everybody from the bottom of our dead cold hearts we appreciate it we really really do

we're so excited and we can't wait to see you guys at live shows we really have a blast meeting you people and just kind of getting names to faces and faces to names and uh they're just people tell us really interesting shit we meet a lot of interesting people out there that were just like i would have never met this person otherwise and what if somebody wanted to meet you how could they find you on social media you can find me at wisdom sucks whisman sucks on twitter instagram and snapchat and it's it's been really overwhelming and flattering to hear from you guys. So thank you very much.

Where can they find you? You can find me at JimmyPIsFunny, or you can just copy and paste my last name from the show description. That way you're not, you know, struggling to spell Petrogallo. So just do that. Find me. Do whatever you want. It's all good.

And that said, guys, it's been a blast. We have got to run because we have got to catch planes right and get to ohio right so with that said until next week everybody it's been our pleasure you Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.