Small Town Murder - #131 - A Killer So Innocent in Winnemucca, Nevada

Episode Date: August 8, 2019

This week, in Winnemucca, Nevada, a man moves to a new town to make a fresh start. Everything was going so well that his nephew soon joined him, and all seemed well. Until one of them disappeared. And then the other one is gone, too. With no enemies, and unable to even find the two men, police are baffled, until a rural casino waitress breaks the case wide open... Then, it really gets messy!!Along the way, we find out that Basque people can take over a town, that some people's throats just don't need to be cut, and that if you don't want something included in the evidence, you shouldn't have stolen it!!Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman New episodes every Thursday! Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com & use our email: [e-mail] Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports! Follow us on... twitter.com/@murdersmall facebook.com/smalltownpod instagram.com/smalltownmurder Also, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events, told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Winnemucca, Nevada, a newcomer to the area disappears and police think they know the culprit until they also

disappear. Who could be causing all these mysterious vanishings? Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Yay, indeed, Jimmy. Yay, indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I am Jimmy Westman. And you nailed it this week, Jimmy. I did it.

You nailed the yay. You're on point because we're excited, we're jacked. Thank you guys for joining us on another exciting, wild edition of Small Town Murder. And it'll be no different this week. I have to tell you, next week's story is going to be wild. I'll give you a hint. It takes place in Pennsylvania, and it's insane. We'll get to that. But this week's is crazy, too.

But next week's I'm very excited about also. Sometimes, very few times, I'm like, ooh, next week's going to be so fun, too. Like Pocket Robin episode, I knew that, and I, ooh, next week's going to be so fun, too. Like Pocket Robin episode. I knew that. And I announced next. Tune in next week. Trust me. And this is one of those here.

We're going to have a lot of fun today. Thank you for everyone that came out to Ohio, by the way, to see us live. Thank you. Columbus and Cleveland this weekend. We had a blast. Cleveland, your town, is absolutely abhorrent and terrible. But the people are wonderful. What is going on there?

The people who came to our shows are wonderful. Everyone else is terrible at their jobs. Everyone seems like they're in advanced states of depression while they're working. Well, it's because of the buildings. Did you see them? Good Christ. I don't know what it is. Cleveland, as a friend, this is an intervention.

You need to get some help. You're depressed. You're sad to get some help yeah you're depressed you're sad and i'm afraid you're gonna hurt yourself put it that way james the buildings the the businesses that are operating you can't even tell oh you can't tell everything is that just abandoned or is it oh it's in full operation okay oh there's lights on in there i can't even see it in my hotel room there was a curtain rack thing that was supposed to separate the room of this terrible you know extended stay shithole that we stayed in and mine just didn't have a curtain and it was just like this this metal bar and i'm like i get what that is that's a cleveland

bar every home in cleveland has it in case you want to sling a noose over it and it's good and sturdy you can hang yourself at any time so thank you though for coming out this this week next week i mean we're going to be in omaha which is sold out sorry guys no no tickets available for that one there is a few left for minnesota though a few left for minneapolis get those right now because that's going to sell out definitely when we say a few like we need a few yeah it's like a few so get a little get them now uh definitely we're gonna that's gonna big venue it's gonna be a lot of fun we're gonna have a blast in minneapolis and then all the shows san diego la are the next ones in september and then

we go down south and kick that off it's going to be crazy times uh got to thank everyone for the reviews this week apple podcast the purple icon those reviews help us a ton we don't know why we have no idea why they affected your chart positioning and all that and your rankings but they do and so thank you for everyone who's done that if you haven't yet please give us five stars doesn't matter what you say it's not for our ego no you can't fix us with we're like cleveland we can't be fixed with words we're long past that state so it doesn't matter what you say it's just uh it's like taking a broom to cleveland it's not gonna help so on the business end it helps us out a lot so thank you guys much like if you visit cleveland it'll help you know put some money in people's pockets, but you're not going to fix it.

But thank you, everybody, for everything like that. Also, you can go to shutupandgivememurder.com right now to get those aforementioned tickets. Also, merchandise. There's tons of new stuff up all the time. Sarah, there's smoke coming off of her fingers on that laptop making new designs and T-shirts and all sorts of cool stuff up there for you. So get those and come to a live show. They're going to be a blast. If you want to be one of our heroes, a producer who will rave about at the end of the show, you can do that very easily by going to Patreon dot com slash crime in sports or heading over to PayPal and using our email address.

Crime in sports at Gmail dot com. And if you're asking what the hell is crime in sports, it over to paypal and using our email address crime in sports at gmail.com and if you're asking what the hell is crime in sports it's our other podcast and you are missing out if you're not listening to it silly question it's very silly to not listen to that you do not have to like sports we're making fun of idiots that's what it is and to listing their crimes and telling you how dumb they are so it's a lot of fun with that said we're going to do the disclaimer extra quick this week get it out of the way uh disclaimer it's a comedy of fun. With that said, we're going to do the disclaimer extra quick this week. Get it out of the way. Disclaimer, it's a comedy podcast. This is a comedy show.

It is about murder. Yes, there's murder involved. And what we do is we try not to make fun of the victims or the victims' families because we're assholes. But we're not scumbags. Class-like. That's how it works there. So there's plenty of other stuff to make fun of around people's crazy, messed lives so we we're gonna stick to that and we have a blast doing that and if you think that's fun well that's gonna be good we're gonna have a blast if you don't think it's

fun you should go now you should take a hike and uh you know we can shake hands and say bad blind date you know what your profile look better than uh you said you like this and you actually don't like that so you know what i mean both swiped the wrong way. You're say you're a foodie and then you asked me to go to Applebee's. So we're done here. So one of those things I feel like maybe that's fine. Have a good one for everybody else out there. It's time to stand up on your chairs.

Shout from your cubicles over them or wherever you are at home on the damn treadmill. Whatever you're doing doing shout it loud loud shout shut up and give me murder let's do this i would love to let's go on a trip jimmy what do you say i was a little fast on that you really want to go on a trip he's got his bags packed sitting out on the front steps haven't even pulled up yet yeah holy shit wait for the uber jimmy just give him time to stop and set his computer jesus so uh yeah we're going all the way to nevada from last week we were in michigan we were and we had a lot of people in the midwest who came from michigan to the cleveland show that was said we really nailed jackson michigan to a t which i'm very i love when people from these towns tell us

holy crap i don't know how you've never been there. You nailed it. So that's a source of pride for us, just going off of statistics. Congratulations on reading about us and figuring out exactly what we're like. Well, we are going this week to Nevada, out west here. Our last case in Nevada is, as we know, was in Dayton, Nevada, which was that case that still bothers me with the kid in the trailer and the footprints in the snow. If you have not listened to that, I think it's episode 74, possibly something around there. Dayton, Nevada. Listen to that episode because it is still annoying me to this day. What the hell happened to that kid?

And I saw after that episode, too, there's like reddits where people are discussing it. I saw this case on small town murder and they're going into it with their theories. And it's awesome to see one of the guys that testified message means yeah sent me pictures of like the trailer that the yeah yeah the cat made a noise on and yeah it's horrifying to look at a trailer like that knowing what happened in there knowing the horrors that went on we're going up to winnemucca nevada all right which sounds made up or in alabama or in alabama or it sounds like a like a a Wisconsin lake town that they visited in the great outdoors.

Lake Winnemucca, here we are. You might recognize that from the old song, the Johnny Cash song. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been everywhere. There you go. That's the only time it's ever been mentioned by anyone in the history of the world, I'm sure.

There's other things it's been in, but it's not... This is the place he was talking about? Yeah, Winnemucca, Nevada, is what he was talking about. It's in northern Nevada, way up top in northern Nevada there, right on the edge of the regular pan. Nevada's a big pan with a handle at the bottom. It's right in the pan here.

It's boiling up nicely, sautéing down. It's very impressive that he wrote that song without Wikipedia back then. Johnny Cash did not write that song. Who wrote that? Eight people did it before him. Yeah. He was like the fifth person to do that song without wikipedia johnny cash johnny cash was did not write that who wrote like eight people did it before really yeah he did he was like the fifth person to do that song my point is just how long it's been you just need a map yeah i guess if you've actually traveled and if you're a traveling musician you pass these towns all the time and the signs like they're awake that whole time we don't smoke marijuana in muskogee they're just passing muskogee while smoking weed

going but they don't smoke marijuana that's literally what happened merle haggard said that is that right yeah that was hilarious that wasn't supposed to be this like muskogee shit wasn't supposed to be what it was at all it's a fucking joke they were joking around they went they passed a town and said while they were smoking weed and said i bet they don't smoke marijuana and muskogee and they were joking and then they went on for like an hour with all the other shit they don't do in muskogee i bet they don't you know do this and fun shit basically i shit they don't do in Muskogee. That's incredible. I bet they don't, you know, do this. Fun shit, basically. I bet they don't do that. It was a joke the whole song. Fuck it.

Let's play it tonight. People loved it and they took it the complete wrong way. It was like Bruce Springsteen born in the USA. They were like fuck yeah! Wear even a flag. He's like no, no, no, no, no. That's not what I mean. I'm not saying that. I'm actually, you're missing the, never mind. That's kind of what happened there and merle

haggard's just like fuck it it's a hit yeah i'll play it and shit you sometimes would have to play it like five times in a row at concerts because the crowd would run a bunch of angry rednecks playing a fucking okie from the skokie you son of a bitches i'll fucking kill you they're like one more time so yeah it's one of those things so you never know but uh yeah it's seven hours to las vegas so it's it's not we think nevada you think vegas automatically is nowhere we're closer to vegas than this place is by far four hours yeah seven hours to vegas two and a half hours to reno so it's not even up near there four hours to boise good lord there is nothing around this place it is barely in fucking nevada it's barely in nevada

and it's i mean two and a half hours to reno and that's the closest quote big city which even they call themselves a little city so it's not it's out there man middle of fucking nowhere it's in humboldt county okay nevada's humboldt county the humboldt county without the good weed right so have fun hey i'm here oh jesus what the hell's going on damn it i'm here can you grow weed and dust is that it's just dirt it's very loose soil it grows it grows real big matter of fact it's radioactive yeah that's true good point uh zip codes eight nine four four five and four four six can't hold them back here. Area code 775. 9.4 square miles of nothingness.

The motto here is, Jesus Christ, quote, the city of paved streets. That's literally their motto. Wow. What? Their secondary motto, quote, the city of easily impressed people. The city of refrigerators. Right.

The city of beds. Incredible. The city of refrigerators right the city of beds incredible paved street people with shoes what the fuck that's what it is or their alternate one it's less known but it's it gets around quote scream all you want ain't nobody gonna hear you there's also that one so uh history of this town it was named for chief one of mucka who was the chief of the local tribe and who lived in this area. And he had a camp near here, Chief Winnemucca. And loosely translated, Winnemucca means one moccasin. So he was apparently dipping into the sauce a little bit and wandering around. Losing a shoe from time to time?

Yeah, maybe a peyote high and he lost a shoe. And they're like, you never have both shoes, we love you you're a great leader yeah you've taken our people from here to here i mean we're really we're impressed with everything we like your your economic policies are wonderful we like your social you're very kind to everybody but you got to put both shoes on we're really starting to people are starting to talk that's your name for christ's sake you realize that ever it's not just behind your back. They're calling it right to your face. We were doing this show about 10 years too late.

That is a fantastic nickname for an old co-worker I had who called in sick one day because he quote unquote couldn't find his shoe. That's amazing. If I would have done this show, then I would have called him Winnemucca every day. You don't get paid for that, I hope. Is that a sick day? That's a vacation day, mister. You're not taking a sick day.'re not taking paid for it if it's part of your pto i guess so i don't know how that works he called in so i'm sorry guys no shit i got one

that's unbelievable i mean i could switch back and forth and hop around i don't know what you want me to do but i'll come in if you want. So the chief's daughter here, Sarah Winnemucca, which is just Sarah. That doesn't make any sense. We'll just give her an old Bible Jewish name. There you go. Sarah Winnemucca. She was a big into education and for the fair treatment of the tribes in the area. Like, if you're going to come in here and mine, you've got to treat these people right

and respect their land and all that sort of thing. Their family all learned to speak English so they could negotiate and things like that. Sarah worked as an interpreter and a scout and a messenger for the United States Army in the late 1870s also. She published the autobiography. She published an autobiography.

It's the first one written by a Native American woman in 1883 and is based on a lot of lectures she'd given. She'd go out to the Northeast and mid-Atlantic states and give lectures of life out West and what it's like with, you know, the tribes with people, you know, with settlers coming in and all that sort of thing. On September 16th, 1868, the Central Pacific Railroad reached here. And then, boom, I mean that's once once there's a railroad you have a town otherwise you just had back then because we're not talking there's no highway system there's no cars so no way to get there just i don't know get off the railroad get on your buggy and your wagon for three days and maybe you'll find us in the middle of the desert

somewhere that is interesting so it's it's difficult uh basque immigrants here the basques like this town is all basque what is that basque is a uh it's a region it's a spanish this basques are spanish but it's like the kind of the spanish uh they have their own language it's a totally different thing and if you know like uh i'm kind of into like chefs chefs and chef shit like basques are their own type of chef where they're like they're their own kind of ethnicity. They have their own language. They have their own like genetically. They're slightly different than people around them.

It's a totally different thing. They're an indigenous ethnic group from it's kind of like Spanish and part French is basically the way they say they are. And I know I'm not explaining the Basques. There's a deep, long history and all that. Are they from Spain? Yeah, they're from Spain. They're from, I guess it's a region that is located, let's see, around the west end of the Pyrenees on the coast of the Bay of Biscay and straddles parts of north-central Spain and southwestern France. So it's this region, and they're all their own thing.

They're like the Cajuns of Europe, europe basically would be the best way to describe them like you know if you go down south we did homa that is a it's another thing it's a different person they're american but not really they're sort of their own occasions or their own thing and that's kind of what the basks are okay these people for some reason this these best people best people chose to come to wininnemucca, Nevada. That was their place. And settle in. I don't know what the hell, why.

They started coming in the mid-1800s, too. This isn't like, I don't know what they were thinking. Somewhere in Spain, they said, in the middle of the nowhere somewhere, we need to go there. It was a mining town, that's why. So it attracted a lot of people. But the Basques especially went here. They had to land on the East Coast and travel all the way across, right? Yeah.

They didn't go around the other way. Right. Because if you land in San Francisco, there's no way you're going to keep going and be like, it's just beyond this amazing place. No, no. Keep going until it's ugly. Right. When it stops being beautiful, that's where you've reached your place.

That's right there. The other side of those mountains. So maybe we landed here and you want to go, why don't we just stay? Let's just stay here. I can can see the oh there's like islands out this is gorgeous this is amazing this is beautiful put your hoodie on holy shit they're still they're already selling pretzels on the side of the road i just got here they're selling pretzels on the pier hot dogs and this is great come on so uh yeah the basque immigrants worked as sheep herders starting in the 1800s here and uh winnemucca has an annual Basque festival that we will not talk about and things to do because it looked kind of boring compared to the other shit.

I'm sure it's spectacular, but compared to the other stuff, you know, whatever. But yeah, the best have been living in northern Nevada there. And they have like several there's several thousands of them there. It's not like there's like five bass and they have a club. The best is their best are them there. It's not like there's like five Basques and they have a club. The Basques are huge there. They first came during the gold rush, and they've just been herding sheep in Nevada and in that area for a century and a half now.

So, yeah, it's especially, though, prominent in Winnemucca, they say. This is like the most Basque town in America, kind of Winnemucca. Is this B-A-S-K? B-A-S-Q-U-E. Okay. Basque. Yeah, so they founded, the Basque town in America, kind of Winnemucca. Is this B-A-S-K? B-A-S-Q-U-E. Okay. Basque. Yeah, so they founded, the Basque immigrants founded, some Basque immigrants, not all of them, I guess, at once didn't do this.

They founded the Martin Hotel and the Winnemucca Hotel, and they were both associated with groups of Basque sheep herders that owned it. So they were investing smart. In 1900, September 19th to be exact exact butch cassidy's gang robbed the first first national bank of winnemucca really and got away with 32 640 bucks that's a shitload of money a lot of money in the 18 1900 in cash money that's not bad undraceable they had a big china town in the uh early uh late 1800s early 1900s they had a big Chinatown in the early, late 1800s, early 1900s. They had a big Chinatown.

They showed up to be railroad workers originally in the West there. And some just hung out and stayed here. In the 1890s, there was about 400 Chinese people there, which was a lot out of the population. And yeah, it was a very, very different type of place. So they had bass. They had a Chinatown in this little town in the middle of nowhere. So it was wild. Yeah, it was really had some some life to this town.

They have brothels. Yeah, they have brothels now. Not just that now, too. Oh, because this is legal. Oh, yeah. They have the Winnemucca's brothel district. They say it's smaller now than it is and then it was in the 1980s. In the 80s, we all know the Winnemucca brothel district is famous all the rappers talking about it and their songs very

famous uh it's known as the ring circle or the line based on the layout of the streets here sex workers have to register with the local police yeah they have to register their vehicles this is a sex worker vehicle we'll be taking blow jobs they'll be it'll be transporting blow jobs across the town apparently i don't know how that works what is that yeah it's very weird uh the the winnemucca's residents are employed a lot of mining companies there still so it's there's gold mines around there uh there's uh also a trailer company that has a hundred people that works that work there and uh an airport industrial park. It's very industrial there. There's not a lot of white-collar jobs here.

Put it that way. When you say trailers, like homes or like... Carry-on trailers, like the carry shit. Oh, cool. Okay. Yeah, that's what I want to do. I want to work at a trailer manufacturer. It's not a fun job, but it's definitely an... It's a job.

Oh, it's fine. Yeah, that's great. Good for you. That's a lot of welding and shit you don't want to fucking do that no god no you know not you i mean whoever's doing it if i could do something easier that'd be great because this is this sucks uh you know hey do it though do what you gotta do the uh also there's the casinos hotels motels farms around there a few restaurants and that sort of shit winnemucca farms operated the world's largest potato dehydration plant there

so for why there's that i assume they all come down from idaho and i don't understand it either dehydrate them yeah to make dehydrated stuff for frozen okay freeze dried you know hash browns and shit yeah i don't know french fry the largest one it's still in the world wow and until 2013 and then somebody else said come on yeah it's winnemucca you know beat by them we're gonna big league you here and just we're gonna dehydrate one or two more potatoes and you're chicago what do you expect i'm gonna put it in there i think boise was like excuse me uh should take place in idaho so uh winnemucca though still one of the largest potato farming areas on the face of the planet no kidding so yeah winnemucca you want a potato and and go

down in a mine this is your place that make i feel like i've been to five guys and the potatoes they were serving that day were from winnemucca i'm sure that makes sense largest in the world one of the largest it's also home winnemucca to the buckaroo hall of fame and heritage museum oh so there's that and also headquarters of some uh some kind of podcast network that i've never heard of so anyway uh resident review here found a resident review uh they don't love it we'll put it that way quote the town is perfect if you're basque and local if you moved here it's a horrible place to live. Local families run the entire town, right down to the high school sports teams. I lived there for seven years and never felt safe. The amount of animosity between people in the town is ridiculous.

The children are constantly slandering each other in a way I've never seen anywhere else over social media and in person. Mean kids. Mean kids get reviews. What is happening? And the rumors and awful things they do to each other surpass any other place. Any other place, Jimmy. Any place ever.

Rwanda. Yeah. You know, Denmark. It doesn't matter. Anywhere. Japan. Who cares? Fuck Beirut.

Fuck everywhere. The school system is small and not well prepared to prepare students for college. Honestly, I don't think this is a good place to raise children no diversity not friendly and nothing to do one star so okay it's kind of a snapshot of the town here that's an exhausting they don't like scathing review it is scathing so uh turn of the century i said there was 400 chinese people here and that was a lot because there's only 1100 people here then so this is a good portion of our Chinese here. Now, people here, population today, 7,870 people,

which is up 28% since 1990. Here, female, a little more than male, which is odd because it's a younger population, more outside jobs, so it's weird. Median age here, 29.6, which is whenever it's under 30. That is super low because it's almost 38 in the rest of the country. All of the zero years old to 17-year-old, all of those demos are way high. Twice as much.

All the over 60-year-old demographics are way low. They're all like, once you're too old to work the mines, they just shove you in a mine cart and send you on your way into an abandoned shaft yeah we don't need any more canaries guys we have bob's retiring so he's gonna be good here move along prospector so uh mad people married it's about 50 50 it's right along with the rest of the country actually with everything like that uh there's a few more not a lot of single with no children people everyone has fucking kids whether you're single married you have kids there's a lot of kids race of the town it's uh about 60 percent white yeah it's 61 and a half in the rest of the country so that's almost on average 0.7 percent black not a lot of black people here uh asian

from being you know almost 40 percent of the population a good third of the population in 1900 they now have 0.0 percent asians no asians in chinatown now they have at non-chinatown now that this this here we call this america town right in this part of the this is kansas town we we call that uh nagasaki it has been conquered yeah but i know they were chinese it's fine look i'm just i don't know i look alike to me i don't know none of them ain't one of them hair jesus christ there's none there's none to offend that's yeah ain't nobody around they ain't no hairs that's i feel like a lot of conversations like that going on so uh hispanic 36 so uh hispanic is where the balance is got it 36 uh religious 48 of the people here are

religious 25 are catholic because spanish people are catholic hispanic people are catholic and that's the way that works 12.77% Mormon. Oh, it's Nevada. They're going to find their way to any town. If the railroad goes there, they're going to find it. And it's damn near Idaho. That's what I'm saying. 0.0% Jewish here. They're like, I don't think so.

I'm not happening. We're not into the mining, really. So 0.0% Islam as well. 21% Democrat in the last election. 70% Republican here. It's 8% independent, which is a lot, actually, for anywhere. Unemployment rate's

about the same as the rest of the country. It's about 4%. Median household income is a little higher, though, because these mining jobs do pay well because they're dangerous as shit. So you get hazard pay here. $69,562 is the median household income. That's pretty good.

Which is good. $57,000 the rest of the country. Normally, the jobs, it's 0.6% of which less than 1% of the jobs are normally in mining, quarrying, oil, and gas extraction. Here it is 27%. My fuck. So a little out of whack when it comes to that. This is a quarter of the jobs. Yeah, that what i mean that's that's what the jobs are here

even like there's less uh less there's some like there's more like accommodation food services type thing for people that stop on through because it's really like one of those places where uh kind of like when you're dry heal a bend or one of those places it's nothing else for two hours so yeah enjoy yeah if you want to stretch your legs and eat something this is the only place Lake when you're dry. Gila Bend or one of those places. It's nothing else for two hours. So yeah, enjoy. Yeah. If you want to stretch your legs and eat something, this is the only place you can be able to do it for a while. Not a lot of white collar jobs.

About a third of those that should be there and that sort of thing. So even like the public schools and stuff like that are less jobs. Their cost of living 100 being regular par and average here. It is one on 1.7. So not very good station. It's yeah. One on 1.77 win a muck in nevada w or bk because we're sorry k suck k suck ksuk i haven't listened to a radio since i lived in the w region there so uh yeah k suck k muck win a muck is win a muck as best classic rock.

101.7 K-Muck. The muck. K-M-U-K. The muck's going to be down at the old silver mine, giving away two tickets to see Johnny Cash's impersonator come through town and sing that song that mentions us. Come on down to the muck so uh yeah sorry about that i couldn't help myself so yeah the muck stop that's what they call it

the muck stop median home cost here two hundred two thousand eight hundred dollars so it's a little high actually higher than you would expect for the middle of nowhere like this most of the houses are between 150 and 300, more than half the houses. And if we've convinced you that you must, you must move to Winnemucca. Go make a muck stop. Make a muck stop. We have for you the Winnemucca, Nevada Real Estate Report.

Your average two-bedroom rental here goes for about $961, which still seems like too much, but whatever. It's less than average, though. I found a four-bedroom, two-bath, 1,456-square-feet house. It's kind of in the middle of a field. It looks like it's used to store grain and corpses together. Maybe it was. Together, both. I don't know what this house is frightening. It looks like it's used to store grain and corpses. Maybe it was. Together.

Both. I don't know what this house is frightening. It looks scary. You'd look at that and go, oh, God. It's just waiting for a tornado to sweep it away is what it looks like, even though I don't know if there's tornadoes there. Either way, $98,750 if you're not scared, if you're brave. Then I found a two-bedroom, one-bath, not scary house. 1,529 square feet around other human

beings uh for 205 000 that's kind of your average home here then you want to stretch out you let's say you're you own the silver mine yeah you know plenty of of asians have perished there for decades till there's none left and you're ready to buy a five-bedroom, three-and-a-half bath, 3,100 square foot, really nice, well-appointed, on a good amount of land, $534,900 for that. So take that for what it is. I can't imagine. Yeah, that's how that's going to be. Got a half-million-dollar house in this place? In Winnemucca.

Yeah, the muck. Oh, boy. K-muck. Yeah. So things to do here. Holy shit. We have the Humboldt County Parade of Lights. Yeah.

That sounds good, right? No. Don't you want to know more about that? Yes, I do. Yeah, well, you can't because I went to the website and it just says, more information coming soon. So you're not going to... I'm sorry.

We got lights coming. When? We'll tell you later. We don't know. There's going to be lights and it's a fucking parade of some kind. Shut up. Is there an admission? We'll figure it out later okay

right now we just got the title on the website who's welcome can i bring kids we're not sure yet pets we're not positive i don't know if there's going to be hot dogs for the kids just stop it you're putting too much pressure on us more information just put it up on the site more information coming soon uh the runamucka motorcycle runamucka what motorcycle and music festival holy shit no runamucka god i hate this place already 18th annual runamucka motorcycle and music festival in runamucka is sure to be the best event ever just the best event ever that's ever at world's fair step aside 1964 hey look electricity the light fuck that best event ever why because there's plenty of action featuring live concerts a thousand dollar poker run death defying special

acts a tattoo contest is that to draw them or just look at my tattoo it's better than his tattoo that i have on my arm a bike show bike games bike games, and of course, the iconic burning bike. I don't get it. The best event ever in the history of human beings. Tattoo contest? Are we going to light a motorcycle on fire? And then light a motorcycle. Have you guys been out of the house before?

I don't know what's going on. It's like the party from the Brian Bosworth Stone Cold movie yeah, Brian Bosworth's Stone Cold movie from back in the day there when they, oh my God. These people have never been, if you've never been to an event before, best event. Best ever. They lit it on fire. Did you go to the one last year? No, I ain't never been to nothing ever, so

it was good though. This is good. They had $1,000. A man won $1,000. Best event ever. Then there's also the 30th annual Winnemucca Ranch rodeo as you can see i couldn't choose between one and the other the largest and most exciting rodeo in nevada they claim they're going to be insulted when the run amaca happens the best event ever and this is just the most exciting now they didn't say anything about exciting they're not stepping on each other's toes they know better within winnemucca they know it's up yeah 32 teams compete for bragging rights and prizes in saddle bronc riding, steer stopping, wild

mugging, trailer loading, team roping, ranch doctoring, and team branding. That sounded like an insult. I don't know what they're doing here. Free admission. You wild mucking. What is this? What are they? Trailer loading, team roping ranch doctor

and team brander and wild mugging steer stopping some bitch i have had it gosh damn i hate you i'm sorry for my language i'm very sorry i just he gets this saddle bronc rod and some bitch just gets to me i can't take it no more i want to write that down i want to say that to somebody and don't forget they said don't forget wild horse racing oh we will take 18 three-man teams how the shit do you race wild horses with three guys i don't three dudes on a horse i don't want to know how that works i'm my brain is throbbing right now with the thoughts of how you could possibly race a wild horse

and then how you could do it with three-man teams. It's hard enough to get one person on a wild horse. I'm still hung on that insult. Oh, that's amazing. That's amazing. See her stomping wild mug and trailer loading, team rope and wrench, doctor and team brand and some bitch. Saddle, bronc, rod and bastard, I'll tell you.

Tell you what. So good uh that's for anybody who didn't hear it the first time so crime rate in this town what we're interested in you could just hit the 15 second and go back and do it over property crime just below average about 10 below average in the ballpark and violent crime murder rape robbery and assault also right at average just a drop low so uh it's not a not a dangerous place nothing like that just seems to be a place where people go and work with their hands yeah they're working minds and do dangerous jobs for better salaries and trying to you know get shit done here so good for these people here speaking of these people we should talk about yeah some of these people talk about a murder oh oh that's dangerous i like it let's do this let's talk about a murder welcome to the small town of chinook where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper in this new

thriller available exclusively on wondery plus religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated mont community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth.

With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again,

leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Erin and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle in theory, walking through the forensic evidence, and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus.

I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media will have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of part one and watching along with part two as it airs on Max starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The official Jinx podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about HelloFresh.

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And you only get that at HelloFresh.com slash SmallTownMurder80. Promo code SmallTownMurder80. And now back to the show. We have, let's talk first about Charles Beatty. Okay. Son of Ned Beatty. No, he's not the son of Ned Beatty. That'd be a totally different. That would be great.

That'd be super weird. I would love that. So then Ned Beatty said that he squealed like a pig. So Charles, be totally. Uncle Warren came through and gave him a list of hot chicks. That's it. That's all it is. So Charles Beatty, he's 28 years old in August of 1988.

So he was born in 1960, obviously. He moves to Winnemucca, Nevada that month. He moves from Wyoming here, from Rock Springs, Wyoming, to Winnemucca, Nevada, which that doesn't sound like a big move. But Rock Springs, Wyoming, it's probably like I'm moving to the city now. There's 7,000 people there, and they have a ranch hand rodeo that's very exciting. Not the best event ever, but it's there. So he goes. He gets a job pretty much right away.

Seems like if you are capable of working in a mine or something like that, you could get a job here in the 80s, no problem. So he gets employment pretty quickly at the pinson mine so in a mine it's a silver mine or it's a gold mine i'm sorry and he moves into a house at uh on south street in winnemucca so coming together 28 year old guy moves to a new town gets a job gets an apartment typical shit it's pretty great though yeah i mean hey if you're especially if you live in like because rock springs is a small town in wyoming if you're from a small town in wyoming this is like a step out on your own and you're gonna you know i don't know for me that

would be exciting found a job right away found a place right away pretty good for him like for me to move to winnemucca right now i'd be like holy jesus because i'm used to having more options we live in a city but like if you came from Rock Springs, Wyoming, you'd be like, this place is slamming. God help you, Winnemucca, if you can't figure out pizza. Oh, my God. Oh, Jesus. I don't want Winnemucca pizza. I'm sure you don't.

I don't want Winnemucca. I'm positive. Absolutely positive you don't want their pizza. I had Morenci, Arizona pizza once. Oh, oh, oh. What? It was comically bad. Why would you do that? It still wasn't as bad as larosa's in cincinnati

but it was pretty goddamn disgusting it was so weird yeah morenci arizona just keep going well morenci arizona is basically how starving were you it's a smaller winnemucca if winnemucca had a tiny tiny turd it would be it would be Marenzi, Arizona. It's a town that's built around one mine, and everyone in town works at the mine, and there's like 150 people there. We did a comedy, not me and you, but I did a comedy show that you passed on to me somehow,

where we went there, and literally the entire town came to the comedy show. Like at the hotel the night before, they had to call the person to come to the hotel to let us in, to check us in because we got there past eight or some shit. And then they were like, oh, everyone's real excited for the show.

And we're like, what do you mean? They're like, oh, the whole town. The whole town was there. Everybody. Old people, kids, the whole town. I'm telling horrible dick jokes. This was five years ago. They didn't care.

They were like, this is the best game. They were like, this is the best night we've had in years and we're like we came what it's the best event ever best event ever so they're like we're not even lighting a motorcycle on fire you mean mugging sons of bitches see what these ranch hands can do on this buck and bronco so yeah this is a step in the right direction for charles baity seems like a happy guy he's there for a little while he's there for about a month and his 24 year old nephew comes to stay with him for a couple weeks and kind of check it out and see if he likes it too his name is james robertson he's 24 like we said he's also from rock springs wyoming I guess he's sent word back to Rock Springs of the endless prosperity of Winnemucca.

They have a railroad. There's a souvenir shop. It's amazing. You're going to love it here. He told it on the mountain. Yeah. Oh, boy. He was telling you, you got to come to Winnemucca.

It's amazing. So apparently they say that Beatty was his uncle, was the uncle of James Robertson's wife, is what everybody says, but Robertson's not married. So I don't know how. We never figure out how they're of relation. I don't know if this is one of these kind of rural uncle situations. I don't know that feeling. Or, you know, like an Italian uncle situation, either way. Italians and rural people have a lot in common with that,

where if you just hang around a lot, you're an uncle now, and they just slap a label on you. So I'm not sure if that's what happened or what here. But, yeah, Robertson's not married. We don't know their relation, but it's his nephew. Very close. So, yeah, he's originallytson's from clarksville arkansas oh so yeah you know what that's all about yeah i don't know he lived at point of rocks

wyoming at one point okay and uh also rock springs yeah he's like i'm tired of these towns with rock in the name i need to go somewhere else nothing is in winnemucca that's perfect uh so yeah the uh he he uh i guess it's he's he lived there but it's basically a truck stop in this town that town at the time so they're like i don't know if he worked at the truck stop and like lived in the back room like a storage unit type situation or what uh but he he earned a degree, actually, Robertson, the 24-year-old, from Western Wyoming College. That's in May of 88. So he graduates. He's sitting around, doesn't know what to do.

His, quote, uncle goes to the small city to get a big mining job. And he said, all right, well, fuck, I got nothing to do, so why not? At Western Wyoming College, he was, Robertson was named student of the year. Isn't that the... Valedictorian. They're like, listen, it's Western Wyoming College. I mean, he did better than everybody else, but he's still got like a 77 average. So it's like a C plus.

So we can't really say valedictorian it's kind of cheapening the word here and uh yeah student of the year yeah student of the year i always think like these people who want to be professors like i feel like in their minds they have this fantasy of like i'm going to be a professor and they have like this animal house uh donald sutherland fantasy we're like i'm going to be like this cool professor who lives in like this college town just like off from this big city and live in one of those old houses with a big front porch.

You know what I'm saying? In the town. And then, you know, kids come over to rapes have happened. So many rapes, just beer, vomit, beer, vomit and rape memories all over the sidewalks and terrible things going on. But, you know, the students are going to come over to discuss things and we're going to smoke weed together. And, you know, these are the fantasies they have.

They're going to have patches on their elbows. And then they realize that those jobs are hard to get. Yeah. And they end up teaching at Western Wyoming College and they have to live in Western Wyoming. Right. And they go, I have like ninety thousand 000 in student loan debt and i'm teaching at western 37 grand a year yeah and i gotta live and it's horrible and it's boring and i'm gonna sell plasma till the day i die sending out the resume every day to like dartmouth or something just get

me out of here get me to one of these leafy little towns you know chapel hill north something get me somewhere plasma and semen in their fucking mailbox terrible mailed out like oh god just please get me please just buy this from me i need money i need to get out of here good god i'll mine i'll mine silver i don't care now robertson also has uh in addition to being a good student and being student of the year and having a college degree, he also has several physical disabilities. Robertson has some problems. This is a result of having Hodgkin's disease when he was 13 years old. Is that cancer?

It's cancer in the lymph glands, but there's different kinds of Hodgkin's. There's the Hodgkingkins there's lymphoma non-Hodgkins there's super curable there's like a not very curable it's the Seinfeld joke of the good Hodgkins the good Hodgkins or is that the Curb Your Enthusiasm

they run together but yeah he's got the good Hodgkins there's no good Hodgkins he's like well it's a better Hodgkins than the other Hodgkins that makes sense there's Mario Lemieux Hodgkins

where you can still play hockey and then there's you're gonna fucking die hotchkins we'll put it that way never mind good just do you have mario lemieux hotchkins yes okay fine then you're good you'll be back out on the ice no sympathy for me yeah you're gonna be mvp next year terrific it'll only make you stronger but the other kind very bad very bad. So, yeah, he has apparently a bunch of physical disabilities as a result of this, including partial paralysis, what they call a deformed shoulder. I'm not sure exactly how deformed his shoulder was. I'm not sure if it's like a visual. Like is it like circus? Yeah.

like a visual like is it like circus yeah i don't know if he's got like an arm sticking out of it or like if he's you know if it's like all indented or if it's just like the bone structure or something's deformed and if he's got a sweatshirt on you can't tell right but but if he's in the pool you're like what the fuck happened to his shoulder you know what i'm saying i don't know what what the which one it is and uh and people would to ask, too. Yeah. That lady at Walgreens. I had this checkout lady at Walgreens. And she was one of my favorite people in the world. Yeah. She's like 4'11", tall and wide.

Same thing. And she's just loud and awesome. I was like, that's not very tall, James. If you put her on her side, she's the same height. I'm checking out, and this man comes in. He's an old man, and he comes in just dabbling. How you doing? It's a hot day out there. Oh, boy, what's going to happen? Is it going to storm? I'm going out and this man comes in. He's an old man and he comes in just dabbling. How you doing? It's a hot day out there.

Oh boy, what's going to happen? Is it going to storm? I'm going to go here. You know what? I hear that targets are closing. Like he was saying shit like that to whoever would listen. Just walking in and he had this big like road rash on his face. Like it looked like he shot off a motorcycle at 100 miles an hour.

And the one girl in line behind me, this lady, she looks at me and she goes, that looks painful. and the one girl in line behind me, this lady, she looks at me and she goes, that looks painful. And the cashier, the tiny one, this lady overhears that, then looks at the old man and goes, what's wrong with your face?

Everybody wants to know if it's painful. And he keeps talking. He goes, what happened to your face? She just keeps saying, and I'm like, okay, this is hilarious. I wish I, it's mean, but I kind of also, He didn't seem to care. He's not going to bother her.

She's tiny and unassuming. And I think he just started to explain it, and then I walked out because I can't be a part of this. But, yeah. So, deformed shoulder. Also, impaired speech that rendered him... He couldn't speak loudly. He had, like, a low or something in the range of his voice where he couldn't scream

he couldn't yell okay it was impossible for him to project his voice he had like one of those kind of pinched off voices this seems tough also wore a leg brace for an injury caused by a motorcycle accident god damn it think about that unpack that for a second listen to what i just said the man had hgkin's. He can't scream, and he had a motorcycle accident, so his leg's in a permanent thing. He was riding around a motorcycle. Yeah. Anyway, he's a...

So that was after all that shit? Yeah, he got the thing when he was 13. He had Hodgkin's. He had a motorcycle accident later on. He had a leg brace from an injury caused to the motorcycle, maybe because he had partial paralysis a deformed shoulder and he's unable to scream so it was harder to ride a motorcycle well and he crashed it and fucked his leg up too who let him on a motorcycle i mean you think his mom be like please you almost died when you're 13 you had the hotchkins and now you're you're gonna ride around on a motorcycle like you can't take it anymore it's the stress of you

clearly wasn't lemieux no Because you've got deformities. Yeah, Lemieux's shoulders are fine, from what I understand. So, I'm not positive. He had a great slap shot. Terrific. Right. You know what? His wrister worked.

Right. Yeah. So, now September of 1988 comes around, and so we have Beatty here and his nephew, and Beatty's working at the mine. And his nephew is, I guess, fighting through the pain of being of existing at this point, because he sounds like he's in a lot of pain all the time and has a lot of issues here. But he's he's plugging around. He's plugging through. And then September 14th, 1988 comes around and Beatty's live there for a little over a month.

He's settling in. He doesn't show up at work one day. Beatty doesn lived there for a little over a month he's you know settling in he doesn't show up at work one day Beatty doesn't which is strange and so they call him and he doesn't answer his telephone either so they're like okay this isn't normal uh they can't find him they go to his house knock on the door nobody answers the door he's just disappeared right so they're like okay this is odd for him he seems he's only been here a month but he's been pretty dependable and uh so they want to find out where he is and they hear from the guys at work well his nephew just came you know a couple weeks ago here's you know nephew's

24 so they're like all right we got to talk to this robertson guy obviously there's two dudes living somewhere and one of them's missing you want to talk to the other one to find out maybe what happened possibly. He might know. He might know. Problem is he's also missing. So now they're like, okay, they don't know what's going on. They assume they didn't run away together and, you know, run away to Idaho or something. There's nowhere to go.

They ran to Reno to marry. Like, I don't think that's what happened. They didn't go to find prostitutes. They have those in Wnemucca so i don't know what they were they were wondering if a if uh if maybe baby disappeared thompson had something to do with it and then thompson took off because he's not robertson or thompson or robertson i'm sorry robertson took off jesus christ i thought we had another person nope nope robertson my bad it's common names here uh robertson takes off and they're like i wonder if they're wondering if maybe that happened yeah or maybe the other

way around right because they're like okay he had a bunch of physical disabilities would he be capable of physically of murder but they said he rode a motorcycle so maybe and then the other guy is a kind of a hardy a stout mine worker sure he could have you know hurt him maybe and then disappeared because who knows but they have no reason know hurt him maybe and then disappeared because who knows but they have no reason to hurt each other and then everybody says they get along or maybe they're in deep at a casino the both of them and they're in a lot of trouble together they could be in a lot of trouble together they don't have any idea right now they're they're clueless and the fact that they're both missing makes it more confusing because it makes more options yeah makes for

more options base if one person's missing okay they either ran away or somebody killed them. It's very much like me when I wake up in the morning. If I just had my glasses, I could find my glasses. Yes, exactly. If we could just find one, we could find the other, but then we can't find either. So it's that sort of thing. So on September 22, 1988,

eight days go by, neither of these people, they won't answer their phone they're not home there's nothing going on it's nothing is nothing's done here and then uh uh at one point uh they finally somebody is in the desert on september 22nd 1988 and in a creek bed near a gravel road uh that goes out to like a near like a a kind of a a park that's kind of a dis a disassociated park that they've stopped taking care of type of thing it's kind of disassociated park yeah it really does sounds like the site of the ranch hand rodeo so anyway they find a body there and uh yeah they're they're uh they find out that it is robertson actually he's clothed

only in a pair of white whitey tighty boxer shirt or whitey tighty underwear like jockey shorts he's uh wearing a pair of white briefs and was wrapped in blankets and was in a ravine so that was interesting they're wondering what happened and then it was pretty obvious that there was a problem because he had a gunshot wound in the top of his head. In the top. In the top of his head in a downward direction. And then if that wasn't bad enough, they're like, well, shit, that's weird. Another thing happened.

Also, his throat had been cut. Oh, my God. They're like, okay, this was really. Somebody really wanted to make sure that this was not going to come back again. really wanted to make sure that this was uh not going to come back again so that seems like overkill wrapped in this in this blanket and put in a ravine wrapped in several blankets and in about a quarter mile away they because now they're spread out shit spread out look for evidence look for where's his clothes maybe we'll find a pair of jeans or something uh they find baity uh stuffed into a trash bin wow uh. His feet sticking out.

He had been shot in the back of the head, in the base of his skull, in an upward direction, like an execution. Like somebody came up, like a mob guy came up behind him and put one in the back of his skull. That's how that worked there.

So they're about a quarter mile apart. And he has all his clothes on, though. He's not in his underwear. So this is a very interesting it's horrifying it's horrifying and they're like where what the hell happened here in a town of 7 000 two of their population is dispatched like like legit hitman oh yeah this is this is serious hitman so top of the head throat cut like he owed the colombian mob money in a trash bin with your feet hanging the other guy trash bin with your feet hanging out. And the other guy, trash bin with your feet hanging out.

So you wanted to be found. It's weird because when they found Robertson at first, they automatically were like, fucking Beatty. Where is he? Let's get him. Literally, that was their first thought. Start collecting evidence on Beatty. It's got to be him.

He comes here and in two weeks kills his nephew. Maybe he was hard to take care of or who the hell knows what happened here. But then while they're looking for evidence, they go, oh, hey, never mind. Got it. New theory. Yeah. New theory. Case still open.

Pretty sure it's not him. Yeah. We're pretty positive it's not Beatty. Matter of fact, case wide the fuck open. Wide open. Why are you sure? Well, he's in a trash bin. Upside down.

Upside down. That's weird. So we're pretty sure he didn't do this. Unless he felt so bad about it he just decided to dive in head first and just let the let the garbage overtake him if there's no gun underneath all of that trash i'm pretty sure he didn't do this no shit right yeah unless it's in his hand right with a note in the other hand of how this happened shot myself in the back of the head yeah so one in both shot in the head and one with the throat slashed uh the way

they look at it is they're thinking that it was uh they're trying to put something together of how this might have happened and they're thinking okay maybe somebody they're thinking that probably the kid got it first the younger one bait or robertson got it first and then the other one looks like uh it looks like he was snuck up behind while he was standing because it's an upward angle by a shorter person or at least somebody that has a different angle. So they're looking at that thinking possibly he walked into a room when this was going on with his nephew. And then somebody snuck up behind him and did this. They're trying to put together some kind of theory of what could have happened. But it's kind of difficult from just two bodies a quarter

mile apart of course in rural area here so uh the the problem is they robertson's body because it was down at the ravine their edge and kind of exposed to weather a little bit more had begun to decompose pretty good and the examining physician couldn't determine the exact path of the bullet here because it started to deteriorate. And how long he was alive or conscious even after he was shot or whether his throat or they couldn't even tell whether the throat wound was inflicted postmortem or not. So the decomposition makes it very difficult. All we know is slash and a gunshot. We don't exactly know what happened here so uh there they need to investigate the cops go to baby's residence obviously that's where they're going to start yeah there uh there they said that a blood specialist came in a blood

spatter specialist here and you know testing guy he testifies later on and says here that he found blood on the headboard in the back bedroom that was consistent with that of robertson's uh so the and they said this blood excludes badies from it so this is not badies blood it's definitely robertson's and it's all over the headboard in the back bedroom uh in the same bedroom a police an agent here found 22 caliber cartridge casings on the floor under a mattress. And the blood type consistent with Beatty's was discovered in front of the television in the living room. So it's obvious who got killed where. Under the mattress? Under the mattress.

So on the floor under a mattress. So not between the mattress and the box spring, like under the mattress under the mattress so on the floor under a mattress so not not between the mattress and the box spring like under the bed under the bed like they popped off and getting either got kicked under the bed or a leg rolled under the bed too yeah could have just rolled under the bed we don't know how even a winnemucca yeah apartment we don't know that it's got carpet it could have some that's the other thing i don't know i saw in my mind i saw bare floors yeah i don't know why i didn't see i didn't't see a nice plush carpeting for some reason. No. I saw kind of like those tiles, but they look like wood.

Not parquet, but like the old ones from the 70s, and they get real shitty, and pieces of them come up. Yeah, the cracked up linoleum. Like shit linoleum from the 70s, though. Bad brown linoleum. Oh, yeah. It's all dehydrated. Yeah, dehydrated brown linoleum.

It's Winnemucca. it's been dried to nothing yeah so uh now september 24th this is a couple days later here and now so they're piecing this together they know they've been killed in the house they're pretty sure they didn't kill each other and that's pretty much all they have at this point that's it they have nothing else to go on fingerprints nothing they're they're just at a standstill two dead guys in the desert. Did they owe people money? Who the fuck are... What happened here?

And they were like, they didn't live here long enough to really piss anybody off. Yeah, that's the other part. That was the thing they said. They started going around town. They're like, does he have a girlfriend? Does this one have... You know, they start going into that. Is it a girlfriend thing?

Did he talk to some other guy's woman or some shit like that? Yeah, it's easy to piss people off. But up to a point of murder? Yeah, of this type this type of murder too where you would not only kill the person you're mad at but kill the guy with them too and it's it's a lot so they're going in there like it doesn't seem like a few everybody at work is like i don't know he just showed up and he seems like a nice guy yeah hard worker does fine and now he doesn't show up yeah and nobody even knew robertson he didn't have a job yet or anything he was just hanging out so they were like robertson yeah robertson they were like who the one with the deformed shoulder oh i've seen that kid limping around i heard tell of it i heard

uh pray tell uh yeah so there's there's that so no one they haven't been around long enough to have feuds or to have any sort of in meshed thing that would cause someone to want to kill them for you know anger or anything like that so september 24th a woman named renee montgomery uh comes up to the house while they're investigating because they're still processing since nobody lives there now they can they're just going to take their time and keep this place a crime scene and you know process it and keep investigators posted and shit like that so uh now september 24th this renee montgomery she's a waitress at a local casino here she approaches investigators that are hanging out

on the street in front of the house and asks them is the house ready to rent they just found two they just found a murder scene of two people literally 48 hours ago can y'all wash that shit off the walls? She's like, I really like the location. Is it? Because I really am looking for a place. Like, what the fuck are you talking about? First of all, I don't want to live there anyway.

Even if you've cleaned the brains up off the carpet in front of the television, I don't want to live there. And she's anxious. Yeah. She's like, when is... Move in ready, y'all? I'll clean. I don't mind cleaning.

Put it that way. You can leave it how you found it. If it's a good deal, I'm clean. I don't mind cleaning. Put it that way. Is it? You can leave it. How you found it? I'm in. Tell you what. Yeah, I'll tell you what. Oh, she looks like she's getting a cheap because you waive the security deposit and I'll clean

up the brain matter. How's that? She's wheeling and dealing. Yeah, she's wheeling deal. No, she asked, is it ready to rent? And she said to the police officer here, she's's like look i i heard the place was coming up for rent soon she she said uh uh i spoke to a guy on september 14th which is the day that they went missing these two i spoke to a guy on september 14th about it uh as a guy named roger libby and

he said the house was going to be for rent soon so you know i was just ready it's been 10 days what the fuck here what's going on here uh now they're like oh who notebooks out roger libby pardon pray tell who might you be speaking about libby yeah why are we doing here roger okay good so he she says yeah roger libby i've known him for a few months now uh he's a customer at the casino she works as a bartender at a casino she's like roger libby comes in yeah i've known him for a while and he said there was a place coming up for rent i guess libby would share her room with her roger libby would at the winners hotel which is no winners are there at all winters or winners oh. It's a casino.

Winners Hotel in Winnemucca. Yeah. Look that up and see if it's still available, people, or if it's still open, because that sounds miserable. The Winners fucking, oh, my God. I don't even want to talk about that. Winners Hotel in Winnemucca. Yeah.

They advertise on K-Muck all the time. It's like Olive Garden calling their place real Italian food. Best event ever. It's one of those. Yeah, she worked there. He would share her room with her at the Winner's Hotel in Winnemucca when there were no other rooms available in town. Yeah, when he was a loser. When he was a loser, but that's what it sounded like.

When he was down, she was like, well, I guess you could stay with me. You gave me like $40 in tips this week anyway. When you was up on that roulette wheel. You know how that goes. You can come stay here where we'll call you a winner for tonight. Yeah, winner's hotel where you're never a winner. Just the fact that you're staying there means you've lost. You've lost the game.

You've lost it hard. It's like calling your car service VIP taxi. No mvp prison right no there's a lot of mvps there though yes lots of them so uh yeah after labor day weekend early september uh libby told this renee montgomery that he was going to stay with charles baity for a few days she said now on september 14th he told her this is the day they went missing he told her that he was going back to moberly missouri hey where he's from moberly missouri jot that down see what the population is whoa mo you don't return not to moberly missouri if you see that in the rear view you keep going until it gets smaller and smaller and eventually disappears matter of fact press a little harder with that right foot until your calf is on fire get away from moberly i don't know if that could

be a wonderful place it does not sound like it especially in the 80s it doesn't sound like a place you'd go back to never heard of it never heard of it so not even in it, especially in the 80s. It doesn't sound like a place you'd go back to. Never heard of it. Never heard of it. So not even in a Johnny Cash song. No. He didn't put Mulberry in there. No. The Eagles didn't put it in there.

No. Never standing on a corner in Mulberry, Missouri. None of these, no 70s songs about it. If it's a slot down from Winslow, I'd never go back. Never.

So she says, I'm going back. He says, I'm going back there you know so things are going pretty good for me you see somebody adjusting their belt like yeah that's right moberly jealous yeah you jealous i'm going from winners to moberly winner yeah right here moberly uh and he says that he also told her that baity baity was going back to wyoming oh he was not cool with winnemucca he was tired of it didn't like his job he was going back to Wyoming. He was not cool with Winnemucca. He was tired of it, didn't like his job.

He's going back to Wyoming and that they wanted to and then they were going to rent the house to her apparently now. So that's what happened on the 14th. So later that night, Libby is on the 14th, the evening of the 14th when she gets off her shift at the casino. She he says, why don't you come by the house and i'll show it to you so she comes to the house and she looks around except for one bedroom yeah uh which robertson or which uh which uh uh he does not let her libby does not let her see this one bedroom he just told her it's a real mess in there yeah it's a bunch of storage and stuff so it's just a room like the other one don't worry about about it. So, you know, don't worry about the brain matter on the headboard, which was still, you know, moist.

Sliding. Yeah, still sliding. So then she, Renee Montgomery, went back to the casino and she said she never saw Libby again. So that's she never heard any update. So 10 days later, she goes to the house like, what the fuck? Is it up for rent or what? And there's police there like, not quite let's uh we're gonna talk to you so uh now september 24th 1988 missouri police locate uh uh baby's chevy blazer oh uh it's in missouri oh obviously otherwise be weird if they

found it in california missouri police located it in long beach yeah it'd be very odd instead this is in higby missouri and uh so they think they're like well there's the car why don't we just hang out why it for a while and see what happens so sure enough somebody approaches it with some keys ready to get in and it's roger libby oh libby would you look at this fucking asshole bastard you lousy bet you you were taking a laser to moberly? Moberly, you son of a bitch. You, hold on one second. You steer stomping wild mugging trailer loading team roping ranch doctor and team branding song bitch. Roger Libby. You're drunk, Rod.

Ain't gonna fly around here no more, Roger. Tire of your bullshit. So good. I was so mad I didn't have that memorized. How the hell did you memorize it? I never memorized that. Never, no. Write it down.

Take out a piece of paper. Every time. Hold on. Excuse me. I'm going to carry that around in my wallet from now on. A card with all those things. You know what, sir? One moment, please.

Every time you get spongy-ass pizza, hit him with that. Hit him with it. Call it up and go, excuse me, just hear me out. And yell that into the phone. Oh, bitch! Hang up on him. Shit pizza. So, yeah, so he's approaching the vehicle, and these two troopers, you know, they jump

out and go, hey, I'd like to talk to you, buddy, here about this. They search the front of the blazer for weapons and everything. What they do find is they find Beatty's checkbook and his wallet in the passenger, in the pocket, passenger, in the passenger, in the pocket. You just got so fucking classy on me. Well, it's the pocket of the passenger door. So it's the passenger door. You just got so British. Wow. Allison said, the passenger.

So in the pocket of the passenger door is where they found the wallet and checkbook. Inside the checkbook were bank cards in Beatty's name. So that's rough. It seems like it's Beatty's name. So that's rough. It seems like it's Beatty's car. His car, his license plate, his shit's in there. Seems like him. Where's Beatty? All stuff in Beatty's name.

Missouri police also found a wallet in Libby's possession, which contained Beatty's driver's license. He moved in a month and a half. He already got him a Nevada driver's license. It's a pretty studious cat, though. Most people don't do that. Hard worker. Yeah, I'm not doing that. Really?

Fuck no. When you moved out of your last apartment, how long did it take you to change your... I still have my address from four houses ago. Really? On your license? Yeah, who cares? I don't care. I know you're supposed to, but what's the difference?

I moved and I put that shit on the next day. I don't want any association with that last place. I'm out. I don't even give a shit. I don't want anybody sending me anything. Send it to the five houses ago. I don't care. Knock yourself out.

Yes, officer. I still live there. Yeah. I want 100%. Current address? Absolutely. You betcha. Sure.

No problem. Fuck off. Rebellious son of betcha. Sure. No problem. Fuck off. Rebellious son of a bitch. I don't care. It's just there's no, you don't need to know where I live. I'm fine. Nobody needs to know. My address is the pocket of that Paulson de Dole.

Paulson de Dole. Oh, man. Unbelievable. So, yeah. So, they're obviously curious what's going on here they're like you know this seems seems odd you know anyway he's got his shit together he's disappeared and in a in a in a in a fucking trash can yeah and you've got all his shit it's chin scratching i don't know i don't know how that works here. Doesn't look good. So they get him. They find the Palsinger checkbook and wallet.

Inside the checkbook, they find his bank cards, like we said, his wallet. His bank cards are in the wallet. His driver's license. Beatty's first interstate bank ATM card. And also in the wallet, Roger Libby's own ID card that he put in there. He's going to use it as his wallet. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're'm alina urquhart and i'm ash kelly and our show is part true crime part spooky and part comedy the stories we cover are well researched he claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people with a touch of humor i just like to go ahead and

say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother****er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal

or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes. You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart.

And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, andbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing this mother lied like a liar like a liar and if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal or you love to hop in the way back machine and dissect

the details of some of history's most notorious crimes you should tune in to our podcast morbid follow morbid on the wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts you can listen to episodes early and add free by joining wondery plus in the wondery app or on apple podcasts gonna use it now he's like well there's an extra slot for this i'll just throw that in there kept the pictures of his baby's family in there and everything this is fine i'll put my kids next to his it's no big deal incredible super weird also the four digit pin number for the attached to that particular atm card was on a piece of paper inside the wallet oh so remember your pin number don't write it down and put it in your wallet now the next day

after this one of the police officers goes to the residence of one of Libby's friends in Higbee. And while there, he found, this officer found several stereo components and other items, which also belong to Bailey. Oh, no. And now they're in Missouri, which is not great. Now, Libby has a job there already. He got a job quickly in Missouri. And he has this job quickly.

And police go to his job to ask about him. they go well here's his stuff and his you know he's got tools and yeah this is his locker basically and they look and they find a bunch of his tools are inscribed with the name Charles Beatty oh Jesus so he just stole this guy's tools he's just taking his life he's a pirate

but what was plan B what was next not plan, but what is two? Right, right. What's step two now? Right. You can't just kill a man, steal their car, and then just live like you're that person across the country. We often say, well, it's the dismount.

It's not even dismount. It's just, how are you going to get to the dismount? Well, he had his dismount. No. He could have just, well, the dismount is leave all that person's shit in nevada and go to go to missouri with the money and then you go i don't know what you're talking about there's no physical evidence and then you're fucking fine and they'd have to you know it'd be a hard case he's still got to get to the dismount because he's taking all the evidence yeah he's still

dismounting but in the middle of the dismount he goes i'm gonna get a job in an apartment and i'm just gonna pretend like everything's fine and this is just uh this is crazy it's the weirdest way it's the weirdest thing i've ever seen anybody do yeah there's no thought of this is a dead person's car who i murdered i should probably hide this there's no thought of that whatsoever there's a body somewhere it's but does he doesn't know that they've been found though huh well not at the right away yeah but after a minute when they start asking questions about it oh jesus uh-oh i forgot about that this is bad now yeah because you know they ask they definitely want to answer or ask some questions hey everybody just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit more about better help betterhelp.com that's right if there's something that's interfering with

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You have nothing to lose. Go to BetterHelp.com slash SmallTownMurder. Then simply fill out a questionnaire to help them assess your needs and get matched with a counselor that you'll love. That's BetterHelp.com slash SmallTowncom small town murder and now back to the show so basically yeah if libby if libby if libby was a mob hitman and he killed jimmy hoffa yeah it wouldn't have been a big mystery they would have just been like yeah he's right there we found him in a car trunk and the car was registered to this fucking idiot and that's the end of the mystery he's got a teamsters card in his pocket it's super weird he's just carrying around his teamsters card it's super stupid so

that's basically what's going on here uh tools with his name on it at work he couldn't have more of baby shit with him if he tried so on september 26th the two people from nevada law enforcement officers not just random people hi i'm from nevada i'm here to investigate hi i'm a nevadan how you doing just on behalf of the other curious people in the state of nevada now very specific people who work for law enforcement went to missouri to continue this investigation they searched the blazer thoroughly and they discover a 22 caliber rifle and a box of 22 caliber ammunition and a note saying, I'm going to kill Beatty and Robertson with these and blah, blah. You couldn't have any more.

Can you tie yourself more here? Yeah. A criminal specialist examined this and says that the bullet fragments found in the victim's bodies were small and consistent with a.22 caliber bullet or something very, very close to it. But they couldn't be.22s. Right, right. Shatter on you a little bit.

So blood type consistent with that of Beatty was on the Blazer's carpet, which it's his truck. So that could happen. You should have some blood in there. Most people have blood in their cars at some point. Yeah. If you cut yourself, oh, shit, this is bleeding out of a Band-Aid. At some point. If you've got a car for a month, your DNA is all over it.

Yeah. Well, especially if you work in like a mine, if you're like a blue collar. You'll ding yourself if you're a mechanic or something. You're going to get blood in your car somewhere. I sound like OJ now. Everybody got blood in their car, right? I just bleed all over my place. I got nicked it.

That's all it was. It's all over the place. That's how it works. I'm a football player. I just leak blood. He says, golfing. I love that. Yeah, I cut myself golfing.

He said he cut himself golfing at one point. How the hell do you cut yourself? Didn't he really say that? No. He said, well, I'm always a golfer. And they were like, well, how do you cut yourself golfing? He's like, you know, just golfing. There's nothing sharp on a golf course.

Unless someone drop kicked you with their golf cleat. There's no other way to bleed on a golf course. Somebody slammed you in the head with their driver. He ran out into the cactus. It's all rounded. Nowhere to cut your hand on a golf course. Somebody slammed you in the head with their driver. You ran out into the cactus. It's all rounded. Nowhere to cut your hand on a golf club. All rounded. You have gloves on while you're doing it.

The ball's round. The tee is not that sturdy. I shank it into the tree so much. I am just out there in the thicket. I had to fight a wolverine last time I was in the woods for my ball. That's how bad it gets. So you get bloody. Golfing's tough.

I'm just a bad golfer. I'm just not good at it. So as they investigate here, they discover that someone, I don't know who, someone made three withdrawals from an ATM using Beatty's Winnemucca bank account.

They would need that PIN number. Luckily, it's written in that wallet that he has. Convenient. Very convenient. One withdrawal was in Winnemucka or winamucka on september 14th which is the same day he showed the apartment killed them and uh apparently withdrew some money and the next two were in vegas on september 15th 88 remember he's a gambler this libby he likes hanging out at the casino

so yeah missouri's the other way chief right he went down it's seven hours like we said right it's and that's why i said that's why i put vegas in there it's a trip it's a seven hour trip and then you'd have to go over so it's you know yeah you know i don't know if he was i'm gonna go down to the 40 but just straight down and then all the way over on the interstate i don't know what he was thinking there i think he was hanging out and also the uh a white male individual that fits that fits libby's description was seen on uh 80s shitty 80s surveillance video where you can't see people's faces blurry and grimy but similar it was him uh yeah the uh so yeah they they look at that they they you know police look at these tapes they look at everything and they're like this is a

pretty obvious yeah what happened here so there they want to have to extradite him from Missouri, obviously. And he says, no, I refuse extradition. Normally, no matter how big of an asshole these people are, they're like, yeah, sure, whatever. They just go. No, he says, no, I'm not doing it. I'm going to stay here. And so, yeah, he's refusing to be extradited and he could remain there for months, they said, based on this. Unless the it's it's fucking insane. refusing to be extradited, and he could remain there for months, they said, based on this.

It's fucking insane. So the district attorney in Winnemucca, in Humboldt County, has to file for extradition. They also arrest a man named Wayne Hug, who is questioned. He's a material witness in the case. He apparently took the ride eastward with Libby. But they questioned him, and they end up releasing Hugg, because they say they don't think he has any connection with the killings. This guy, he just said, I'm driving to Missouri. We want to come, type of thing. He didn't say, oh, by the way, I killed a guy.

This is his truck. I have all his stuff. Would you like to see his driver's license? I don't think he said that. Here's his PIN number in case you need it. to see his driver's license. I don't think he said that. Here's his PIN number in case you need it.

So they said they would start the extradition proceedings, but that could take up to 90 days. So yeah, Libby's a construction worker here and he's being held in the Randolph County Jail in Huntsville, Missouri while he awaits for this.

And yeah, the hug guy was also arrested in the car. They were both going to the car. So they're still trying to figure out a motive in this case, other than super low-level robbery. They can't really figure out anything other than, you know, they looked at everything.

They're like, they don't seem to, they just have no, there's no reason for these people to be beefing, basically. Is he their landlord? That's the thing that it seems like. Yeah, he's their landlord, but he's, Libby's only 22, which I don't understand. But he's showing this apartment based on, so he's got to be the guy who's the landlord of this apartment. Money is super tight.

It's super weird. Yeah, that's what I mean. He's the landlord of this apartment. Why would he kill them? He's got to get it rented right now, too. Yeah, it's so strange. I don't understand what's happening in this. This is a weird town and a weird, this is small town small town murder what is happening what is going on there's nothing

clear reason for this it's super strange so finally they get him they get him extradited and uh there's a bail hearing obviously he wants bail and uh the judge says and this is apparently this will come up later on pretty big he He says, quote, I've reviewed the grand jury transcript. Clearly, there is more than a scintilla of evidence, and I find that we do have proof, evident, and so on of that level. There was a capital offense. If I were to consider the confession, I would find that beyond a reasonable doubt he had done this. I don't know that I can do that. I think the state may be right that I could consider that.

However, there's a quantum of evidence necessary in the grand jury transcripts to say no bail in this case i have some discretion and that will be the decision of this court you're remanded for custody so what he said here though is he said if i were to consider your confession i would find that you did this and so i would you know basically he's saying you're guilty and while he's at a bail hearing, which you can't do that as a judge. You can't say I've looked at the evidence and I'd say you're guilty already. Like, that's not how this works at all. You can say there's enough evidence to hold you. You can't say I think you're guilty.

There you go. Doesn't work here now. And also consider the confession. What confession? Well, yeah, there's some confession, actually actually when he gets set in here when he comes to the cops at first apparently he's advised of his rights libby is uh but and then he asked whether he could he said he could talk to a lawyer and uh they said you know can you can i talk to a lawyer and they said sure you can talk to a lawyer but we think it'd be wise if you kept talking us

though they gave him one of those they always say sure you're we'll get your lawyer right now but once the lawyer comes in i can't help you anymore right that's the standard line that they always say that because like the homicide detective that's the guy trying to help you no no it's not he's not and they see once the once your lawyer gets here then we our conversations over and we're going to charge you with first degree murder or second degree whatever's the most they can charge you with and that's it you're going to be charged and gone. Whereas then you go, well, I still can talk my way out of this. Otherwise, I'm not charged yet. And that's when people try to talk their way out of it.

So they said it would be wise to keep talking. And now apparently, according to the Nevada Supreme Court, even if Libby said, I definitely want to talk to a lawyer at that point, police must stop the interrogation and can only ask questions aimed at clarifying his intent of talking to an attorney. That's in the Nevada law there. That's in addition to your federal Miranda rights and all that sort of thing. So prosecutors wanted they wanted all of Libby's statements allowed at the trial. They said, well, at first he denied it.

So they're like, we'll put that in there too yeah and they're like yeah but then you're going to put a confession in that he made after he asked for a lawyer and you you coerced him into talking against state law and federal law but mainly the more stringent state law so they're like you can't do that basically like i don't know what you want to do there's like well we'll say he denied it first like yeah that's that's probably less weight than the part when he said he did it right so we're gonna they're like we'll give it to the jury and they can look at both those statements and decide which one they think is true and no so uh yeah they said uh uh he said libby at one point they they also barred they barred a statement where he said he saw someone else commit the murders but

wasn't involved himself there was one statement where he said he didn't do anything one where he said he did everything and then one where he said i saw who did it but i didn't do anything so he's got three stories that he told the cops none of them matter but yeah they wanted the prosecutor said the conflicting statements would show that he must be lying about something i mean two of the three put him there that's what i mean and there you go two of the three he's there and he's got to be lying in two of the three stories because all three can't be true and only one of them could be true so they said that the his lawyer argued libby's lawyer argued that he clearly wanted a lawyer and was coaxed into talking by an officer who threatened him with uh loss of help from the product because they say yeah well we're not going to help you

that'll be the end of your deals right there we can't do anything for you so the state files a felony obviously complaint here uh murder it's two counts of murder with use of a deadly weapon three counts of robbery with use of a deadly weapon and five counts of grand larceny they also filed of uh notice of their intention to seek the death penalty oh boy against this young man here uh he right away says uh I want to change venues. Small town, all these Basque people, I don't want to be judged. I'm sorry, I can't do it. He says they deny his change of venue, which he's pissed about.

I guess apparently there was a jury selection in 1990 in January, and the start of the trial was delayed while they went over whether to include his self-incriminating confessions or not. So finally, he moves for a change of venue based on pretrial publicity. He argued that it's impossible to have a fair trial because there's so much publicity relating to this whole thing, relating to whether the confession gets in or not, because the papers had a few things about that. District court says no and says we're going to start in April. He presented copies of the local newspaper, transcripts of news broadcasts by a local radio station and published between January 26th and August 2nd. The Humboldt News, the Humboldt sun news articles included facts about the killing

and discovery of the bodies i've read those articles and uh yeah so he they were trying to do all that they also discussed the uh they had audio tape discussions between libby and chief hayes uh of the police and uh the and the court said that uh basically he said things to they were trying to get in. He wanted statements that he made kind of like off the record, sort of Libby made off the record to a police chief. They wanted that included into the record. And they were saying, but that was after the lawyer thing, too. So if you get that included, then you get all the other stuff, too. And so it kind of went like that.

It kind of worked that way. Like the prosecutor said, sure, he can have that if we can have the part where he says he killed everybody. Right. And then lied about it again. So it's one of that. Now, there's also a juror thing here. There's a super weird thing with the jury. He says that he's saying that the jury is dismissing women outright.

And he's saying it's being prejudicial to women. is dismissing women outright. And he's saying it's being prejudicial to women. Now, the way they describe it is they, at this point, especially in time, in 1990, they're talking about how the, basically, like, you can complain that people are being taken off the jury if they're like you. Like, if you're a black man and they're kicking all the black men off the jury, you can say, hey, you can't do that. But if you're a white dude and they're kicking a bunch of, or if you're any dude and they're kicking all the black men off the jury you can say hey you can't do that but if you're a white dude and they're kicking a bunch of or if you're any dude and they're kicking a bunch of women off that's not advantageous that's not you right so they're saying you can't complain about that whereas he's saying whether they're me or not i think they're going to be

more sympathetic as a juror so i would rather do that women are more apt to say no to the death penalty especially for a 22 year old who killed. Who killed dudes. Who killed dudes. Right. Exactly. There's no kids involved. There's no rape. There's no rape. There's no kids.

There's no... That's what I mean. So that's the way... I'm not saying that's the way the women think. That's how he's looking. That's how he's looking at it. He's going,

I have a better chance with women here. Or he's just the first feminist. Or yeah, he's like, damn it, this is not right. They have as much right to serve on this jury as you trail stomping... I you bull brandon motherfucker bull brandon goddamn team roping

jesus i wish i could remember so uh yeah they have all these all these different jury things here and uh they bring the jury back later on. And the district court says they do a thing in a group. It's so weird. They said because they picked a jury. And then they argued about a bunch of shit with the confession. And then they brought the jury back. So they're like, okay, between the time when we picked you and now,

have you heard anything else about the case? Because they question the jury. Have you heard anything about this case? And that was all taken care of beforehand. But now months have gone by and they've been out in the open. So they're like, OK, we have to re-videer all the jurors as to what the hell they've heard. So they get them in a big group and they said, has anybody heard shit about this? And one juror raised his hand and the judge asked the other jurors to step out.

And he questioned this guy. And this was a Mr. scott the juror he told the judge that he read something about a confession in the humboldt son and so the the judge excused the uh this juror and uh they the defense renewed their uh their uh their change of venue motion see look what look what happened. One guy heard it. Holy shit. We need women. We need women. So, yeah, they apparently, according to the defense, a female juror had asked a local attorney about the confession, and a male juror had asked his supervisor at work about the confession.

So the judge calls this guy named Norman Sweeney, who is the supervisor at work of one of these jurors. So imagine you're nothing to do with anything. You're just a supervisor at work. And now you have to go to court to say, yeah, my employee said he heard something. Jesus, I'm firing that guy. The head sandwich maker at Subway is furious. Must I come in here?

So this poor Norman Sweeney comes in, and he says that one of his employees, a guy named Frank Gastelacuto. Oh, Frankie. Yeah. Frankie Gastelacuto. My God was on. He was one of the prospective jurors and he said that he'd been listening to the radio and he heard a preface to a news broadcast that the jurors weren't supposed to listen to. And apparently, according to this guy, his employee told him that the this news thing surprised him and he was supposed to listen to and apparently according to this guy his employee told him that

the this news thing surprised him and he was supposed to get up and leave but then he didn't leave yeah so he might have heard it and this guy was an alternate juror anyway so it doesn't even fucking matter but this is the type of shit they're going on uh next they brought in a lawyer here stating that the lawyer that said that someone came to her to ask her if it was okay that she heard something it's so goddamn complicated here uh she said that uh this juror said that she told a lawyer she read about the confession in the paper and she was told she's not supposed to be reading the paper and this uh so they go back and forth over that it's it's pretty silly so anyway there's also uh something about evidence here. This is Beatty's

pants. Apparently the district court allowed the jury to see Beatty's blood-stained pants. And Libby said that they shouldn't have. The state wanted to show the jury that there was a belt loop on the pants that was torn

and that was because they say that Beatty wore his keys on his belt loop oh they say he ripped his belt loop and that's how he got his keys off of his belt loop so that's what they're doing that's the prosecution saying that's why we're not just showing them to say look there's blood on them we're showing them to say look there's a he stole his belt loop and his keys and then drove his truck to missouri right it's part of the case here so libby says that uh uh he says that the pants lacked probative value and were unduly prejudicial because they unnecessarily inflamed the passions of the jury to see, you know, blood and stuff

on them. So, yeah, but they say no. They had Beatty's ex-wife and his former mother-in-law testify that he kept his keys on a belt loop on his pants. This is the type of thing, this is what's going on in court right now. Everybody out there, you're thinking law and order, and you're thinking, you know,

it just comes and there's a case and an outcome. This is what's happening in court. This is what we're paying for, which is all shit we need to pay for, but just know that this is what's going on in court. It's not all exciting. Many, many men and women and people and and children and elderly and everyone are gathering together

most of these people with very very expensive educations to argue about whether a minor kept his keys on his belt loop or not that's what we're arguing about so yeah and whether or not that should be admitted and whether or not we should have that admitted in the case of this guy shooting him in his own living room jesus christ so the court allowed the state to submit the pants on the condition that the jury would not take them back into the jury room they're not allowed to play with them because normally the jury can request evidence to look at you're not allowed to get a closer look at these pants they're special pants nobody will be partying in these pants.

Yeah. The only way they'd be shown was by the police officer, the main investigator, Agent Milby. He would show them from the witness box. Here are the pants. But you can't look at them. If they said, can you have a closer look? You'd say no. No.

You'd be like, you'd be so interested in those pants as a juror. What's in those pants? What's the matter with those? Dude, those pants must be amazing. It's got to be the most amazing pants ever here. It's got a secret. Yeah. They said the jury was allowed to see the pants from a distance, and that was fine here.

So there's a – I love how these small-town newspapers are amazing, but I love how in big-city newspapers, they're just blurbed, something that happened in a small town. This is an article that – I think it's a reno paper and it's just got like a you know winamucca and it's got stuff that happened there and like all these small towns it'll have the name of the town and like two things that happened there okay winamucca saturday window service has been eliminated at the winamucca post office postmaster tim messmer cited a cutback in the number of employee hours as the reason for the decreased service. Dot, dot, dot. A closed mental competency hearing has been ordered by District Judge Jerry Sullivan for Roger Aaron Libby charged with the September murders of James Robertson and Charles Beatty.

A trial date has not been set. That's joke two? One paragraph. With just dot, dot, dot. Jimmy, look, there isn't even, they didn't even start a new paragraph. It's in the same, it's just dot, dot, dot. look there isn't even they didn't even start a new paragraph it's in the same it's just dot dot dot new fucking sentence also also saturday post office and court shit they know we don't care what happens in winnemucca is what they said basically so at trial uh tons of lots of motions to suppress evidence of all kinds like they're they're really

really hitting the motions hard here uh they made an oral motion to disqualify the judge before the trial started really which is hard to do yeah disqualified judge sullivan and guess who guess who it's up to whether it's he's disqualified or not uh his boss uh him oh he's the fucking judge so you're going to a judge going you're biased and he can go actually uh no i'm not carry on because he's the judge next question so whether it's true or not don't fight the judge basically because you're going to be up to him to to be like you know what you got a point yeah it's up to him in this case here so uh this is crazy so oral motion based on the following comments the uh i would consider the confession that those comments that I said were important later.

Now they're important. So, yeah, this Libby here. Libby alleges that the judge's comments demonstrated bias toward the merits of his case. And in denying the motion, the judge stated that his statement was taken out of context and that he was not biased. That's the judge's idea. He goes, actually, I'm not biased. What you said was out of context. I know it because I said it.

Now I get to decide it. Go fuck yourself. Imagine if you get to decide whether what you said was taken out of context or not. You're literally the judge of that. You'd want to fucking be real careful with that accusation because knowing whatever the outcome is of this challenge He's your guy.

for the rest of this time. Uh-oh. he's the one that's going to be allowing objections or motions or evidence suppressions whoops the days get him on your side probably yeah that's not very uh strategic it's jesus christ it's ridiculous here uh so uh the court they they suppress the statements made uh so anyway they end up suppressing libby statements they do that uh the state kept appealing the decision on the statements until it was unappealable anymore uh he also argues here because in court he says that admission of certain evidence was improper because it revealed characteristics of the victims he's saying you don't want to tell people that they were human beings that had lives

because then people will feel bad for them and want to punish me, which is kind of what a murder trial is. It's kind of a lot of it. Yeah, they put a little bit of that in there. It's kind of one of those things here. He contends that the prosecutor improperly referred to victim characteristics by mentioning Beatty's family and Robertson's helplessness because he wore a brace to to walk and could not scream

yeah so he's saying how dare you say it's just gonna make them madder when you say i beat up a fucking guy who couldn't walk or scream and fucking cut his throat and shot him you can't tell tell them that that's kind of part of it yeah that's like saying don't tell them that the baby was only two when i bashed its head against a rock and killed it that'll just make them mad let's have them think it's a 35 year old man right no that's that's who you killed sorry that's not even rubbing it in you're just saying he killed this guy why does he look like that because he's got a brace on and a fucking deformed shoulder and he can't scream that's why because he's he's had a problem he just wants come in and say he's accused of killing a guy? A guy.

I mean. Just a man. A 24-year-old man was killed. In case the Anthony killed a woman. You know what I mean? That's it. Killed a woman. It's crazy.

What the fuck? Simple. What are we doing? OJ was a bar fight. That's all it was. So, yeah. The state, here they introduce testimony to establish his substantial physical guilt guilt our physical handicaps here caused by the hotchkins uh and to establish that he was uh intelligent it wasn't like he would he he did everything he was just physically disabled and you

know had problems here he got a two-year college degree he was student of the year they had uh evidence and a photograph of robertson at his graduation they put him into evidence and a photograph of Robertson at his graduation. They put him into evidence and Libby doesn't object to that. Robertson's sister also testified that Robertson was elected student of the year by his fellow students prior to graduation. He's like the inspirational guy that they all like and get behind him and shit like that. And this idiot kills him. A fucking idiot. This was also not objected to at all. So that'll come up later so uh the student of

the year certificate uh when that when they tried to introduce the actual certificate of student of the year libby objected on the grounds that it was wasn't relevant uh the judge overruled it and they did submit the see this is one of those things don't piss the judge off don't you fuck with me he could have very easily have said yes that's just probably right yeah but nope he was like no i'm gonna let it in i'm gonna go ahead and allow it i think i'd like to see that i think it's good they said evidence of a victim's character or trait of character is not admissible unless specifically brought into issue however facts establishing a victim's identity and general background are not what is referred to as character evidence so that's what they're saying here the

fact that he was disabled and shit wasn't to rub it in. That's just his general background that you're saying here. Like saying it's a two-year-old girl or something. So yeah, the evidence about this, they say, falls into that category. So also they said the evidence was relevant. Jesus Christ. The evidence was relevant to the question of how they were perpetrated uh which was one of the you know issues to be determined at court the physical

and mental capabilities of the victims were relevant to the inquiry and were properly admitted yeah could he have done this oh it'd be easier for him to do this because he couldn't fight back as well he couldn't scream for his uncle in the next room to help him that sort of shit here uh so they said that that that sort of shit made him helpless basically uh they said that it was uh it wasn't character evidence it's fine during the guilt phase here of the trial uh photograph of baity uh it's a baity baity with his younger with his former wife and young children that was received yeah he's got kids baity received into evidence without objection uh this was the reason why he couldn't object to it because this photograph was found in the wallet that libby

had in his fucking possession right there in the passenger door in the passenger door so what the shit are you thinking unbelievable you can't you can't say don't admit that because it's part of the crime scene it's part of what you stole you stole that it's stolen property is what it is if you left that with him then it's then you couldn't maybe you would have a point but stolen property now totally admissible you dumb shit uh so also other identifying identification indicating the wallop belonged to him uh during closing arguments the prosecutor refers to the fact that the uh victim uh the victims had friends and family but he also said libby had friends and family he says quote he had he about libby has a family he has friends they love him that's natural

the victims had family and friends who love them does that go to the uh does that go to the degree of his moral culpability uh the state suggests that it does not and we ask that you disregard that as well so they're trying to say the way he put it sounded like put all that shit aside it doesn't matter yeah to me anyway so uh yeah they said that the uh the the court ruled that those were appropriate appropriate remarks and uh yeah the photograph was admitted because it was stolen property that was admitted into evidence they said uh libby argues though that there were credit cards and other evidence to establish the fact that he had his stolen items he had baby stolen items in his possession and the photograph should have been inadmissible because that was rubbing it in nope you're stupid and you stole that so it's very

silly uh so the verdict comes up and um uh not a big shocker here guilty right yeah it's you're fucked mister uh uh he's convicted of two counts of first degree murder. Oh, boy. With the use of a deadly weapon and five counts of grand larceny. Penalty phase comes around. So they go into this whole thing and there's a depravity of mind instruction that they give the jury. This allows for the finding of aggravated circumstance.

It's an aggravator for death penalty cases in cases where the murder involves torture, depravity of mind or mutilation of the victim. The court has. But there's a weird constitutionality thing of this whole deal. And the Supreme Court held that the states imposing the death penalty must limit the jury's discretion with clear and objective standards that provide specific detailed guidance and make the process of imposing the death penalty rationally reviewable the aggravating circumstance instruction at issue here as they were talking about whether it was a vile wantonly vile or horrible or inhuman act that involved torture that's basically what they're going here the definition used in this

case was similar to the definition they found unconstitutional in another case however they said in some other statute that uh that in another decision that the first case that they based this on wasn't unconstitutionally vague blah blah blah blah anyway doesn't fucking matter they conclude that the depravity of mind instruction was applied uh unconstitutionally here but it didn't matter so uh they find two aggravate they find aggravating circumstances on libby the murders were committed during the course of a robbery and the murders involved depravity of mind yeah so they allow that they let it in uh the jury uh found libby's background and his family to be a mitigating circumstance. He had a shit family growing up, and that was basically it.

They do find that to be mitigating. They felt bad for him there, but not bad enough. You, sir, may fuck off. Death penalty for him. They are charging him up here. Also, for another count in the robberies and shit here, he's sentenced to 15 years on the charge of robbery and to serve 15 years for use of a deadly weapon.

15 years will run. These will also run consecutively together and on top of death. So that's death plus 30. And then on the other counts, they sentence him to serve 10 years on each count. That is one, two, three, four, five counts of grand larceny. Each 10 year sentence is to run consecutive to one another and to the other one. So that's 30 plus 50.

That's death plus 80 years so far of consecutive sentences. And it's all going to run consecutive to the death penalty. And yeah, so that's that's brutal. That's two death penalties and 80 years they got him good i'd say that judge got him on every last thing he could maybe don't fuck with the judge you want me out of here we'll talk about getting out of here double death plus 80 how's that sound consecutive enjoy asshole yeah that's not not great for him so uh he appeals this yeah obviously here uh they said uh they got rid of the uh the they did decide that the depravity of mind thing the way they

worded it was unconstitutional in one appeal so they get rid of that one so now he has one aggravator left which is still bad enough because it was in the commission of another crime that he has to actually say that it wasn't in the commission of another crime now he has to go to and go look the aggravating circumstance here is a little silly can we talk listen i didn't take that stuff because i quote needed it it was just there and happened to be i just took it by it wasn't like i killed them for that stuff i don't know what you're talking about i mean yes i did gain monetarily and use his tools at work in my new job and drive my car across his car across the country and oh i went to the atm a couple times you're right about that but it wasn't for that all right it was for

something else you bronc busting so-and-sos yeah that's it so jesus can you jesus christ man bronc busting sheep sharing yeah sharing, team wrangling. So they said that the murders were committed in an execution-like manner and were for monetary gain. And they found that his only mitigating circumstance was the fact that he'd been neglected as a child or something like that, and that wasn't enough. And they said this circumstance could only be based on the support family members provided Libby at trial and the obvious concern they showed for him when he was testifying. The fact supporting the finding of mitigating circumstance have unequal persuasive impact when compared to those supporting the aggravating. They said just because his family was mean to him when he was a kid, they came to the trial and supported him. So they're not that bad.

And that doesn't outweigh the fact that he killed these people and robbed them and drove across the country like a fucking moron. He also claims cumulative error. Whole thing's fucked. You just fucked it all up. It's just,

it's beyond reproach. It's around repair. It's so goddamn cumulative. Around repair. It's cumulative. It's built. It's built up and now it's boom.

Like a big, it's exploded like a volcano. Yeah. He said he didn't get a fair trial. It mandates reversal uh it's it's the uh conviction cumulative effect of errors it's just so many errors here uh he here are his errors and i'm not going to go through you know what they i'll go through the list and then say that he can go fuck himself but the here are the uh issues on appeal here whether the district court erred in excusing approximately one third of the 150 juries summoned without notice or hearing to determine whether particularly particular jurors should be excused.

Whether the district court's ruling during Wadir resulted in the denial of Libby's right to a fair trial by an impartial jury. Whether the district court erred by failing to suppress evidence discovered in the search of the blazer. Whether they erred by limiting funds available to the to the defense to transport witnesses to trial so he was trying to get like people flown in from missouri and they were like we have all your you had all his shit yeah you can't what are you gonna say they're gonna say you didn't have a shit i don't know what they're gonna tell us that we don't already know uh whether the district court erred by excluding the testimony of various character witnesses from the defense's presentation he tried to have people come up and be like he's a good guy right like no he's not uh they rejected his defense instructions proffered in the guilt

phase prosecutor committed prosecutor prejudicial misconduct not even prosecutor prejudicial prosecutorial misconduct during closing arguments at the guilt phase of the trial wow that's a lot whether venue is proper as a venue change a venue thing uh due process whether the court erred by rejecting their instructions he goes on and on and on and on doesn't fucking matter basically uh the main thing is the jurors here they do say he kind of has a point about the jurors, except the fact that the court, the state's use of seven out of nine preemptory strikes were against female jurors. They said that wasn't discrimination, though, basically, that they said it might. It's weird. They said it's the jurors themselves might have a case. If the jurors themselves wanted to be pissed off, they might be able to say that they're being treated unfairly, but not the defendant, because those aren't him.

Basically, like I said, those don't fit his description. So it's really weird. It's because these women here, they were asked if they had the quote intestinal fortitude what is that were they gorilla monsoon hulk hogan's got the intestinal fortitude to slam king kong bundy i swear what the fuck are they talking about will you shit your pants at all yeah intestinal fortitude or internal makeup to impose the death penalty so he's like you tough enough to impose that's like he's like challenging people like that. What the hell kind of shit is that?

Some were asked if, quote, deep inside or emotionally you could bring yourself to do it and say, I vote for death. So he was trying, he was saying shit like that to women and making it kind of like he was talking down to them like that.

So they concluded that a reasonable inference from the tenor of these questions is that the prosecutor appeared to accept the premise that women are somehow less qualified jurors in capital cases, which it kind of does. The I guess they said, ironically, almost every woman thoroughly questioned and excused by the state claims she could follow the state's instructions and impose the death penalty. They were even like, yeah, I'll fucking fry him. I don't care. And he was like, yeah, I don't think so. I don't care. And he was like, yeah, I don't think so.

I don't think so, sweetheart. Yeah, I don't know. I think he did one of those. They said, by comparison, those men who stated they too could impose a death penalty did not receive the same type of extensive questioning. For example, the closest the state came to asking an impaneled male juror about his ability to return a verdict was this. He says, my question to you, should you as a juror about his ability to return a verdict was this he says my

question to you should you as a juror get to the point where you you in your own mind feel that the law has been satisfied and you and you believe the death penalty could be imposed the question i have to you is would you do it and he said yes and they were like okay you're good so that's what they're saying here uh so that's how that works out and they say yeah that doesn't mean you didn't kill that guy go fuck yourself the court though they decide it's a three to one decision in this appeals court uh to uphold it and the uh the the dissenter uh he dissented in two different cases based on the same thing they said that he says that the conviction should be upheld but not the death sentences because nevada's capital punishment law is so vague that no one really understands what it means. Okay, so he just has a fun.

He was that judge. Yeah, he's the appeals judge that does that. Now, 2008, he still he has appeals in 99 and 99 in 2000 and 93 in 2006 and 2010. He's got tons of his death penalty. So he gets every appeal possible. Keep going. 2008, he sues prisoners, including him, sue the state of Nevada for poor medical care. He is named as one of the plaintiffs, Roger Libby.

At this point, he's 42 years old. In his lawsuit, he says he is angry because he continually has been requesting surgery to repair a softball-sized hernia. Oh, my God. Holy shit. Where is that? surgery to repair a softball-sized hernia. Oh, my. And has been denied. God. Holy. Where is that? Shit. I don't know, but that sounds horrible.

Holy shit. A softball? What the? Does he know how big that is? Fuck. I've never even heard of a softball-sized hernia before. That's big. I've heard of a golf ball-sized hernia, not a softball-sized hernia.

Oh, boy. Holy balls. I've seen doubles on my grandfather. I think I've said that. It is horrific-looking. Softball? They were not that big. That's huge.

Jesus Christ. Okay, first of all, he's kind of a dick, so it's, you know. It's kind of funny. But at the same time, you can't have people walking around with softball-sized hernias. Fix that shit. I don't care what he's done to anybody that's not good that has to hurt i would imagine so boy also too if it ruptures it's going to be even worse oh it's going to be real bad it's going to be a more expensive

surgery so let's take care of it now can we fix him please so 2009 he's watching 60 minutes yeah libby is uh with his big fucking hernia yeah he's stroking his hernia like a villain strokes a cat's head he has named it yeah he's stroking its head he's watching 60 minutes and there's a story on 60 minutes about faulty lab work yeah or he goes this has something to do with me and he files an appeal after watching 60 minutes okay he says his conviction was exclusively based on circumstantial forensic evidence provided by the FBI's crime lab through an expert

on comparative bullet lead analysis, which compared the chemical composition of lead in various recovered bullets, saying the gun matches the bullets together. Now, his lawsuit says that, it's a bunch of other people here also, say while acting under the color of state law conspired

to have the fact denied that Mr. Libby denied Mr. Libby his right to due process under the 14th Amendment by allowing false evidence to go uncorrected based on knowledge that such evidence is false. Now he so he's claiming a 14th Amendment thing here. He's saying it's also uh a violation of the eighth amendment for cruel and unusual punishment i guess this was a fbi laboratory director dwight adams said the decision to discontinue he discontinued this lab basically uh and it was he said it was based primarily on the inability of scientists or manufacturers to definitively evaluate the significance of an association between bullets made in the count of a bullet. Bullets made in the count of a bullet lead examination.

So basically, he said that kind of comparative analysis, the kind that happened in this case, isn't really that reliable. And we shouldn't have a whole department based on something that isn't really that. He's calling it junk science. Yeah, isn't really that good. We can't really line it up correctly, so we shouldn't have it. So the Washington Post in 60 Minutes, they both did things on this. They did an investigation into comparative bullet lead analysis and the promotion of it by the FBI laboratory. And they aired something in 2007 based on that.

And Dwight Adams, who was the director of the FBI laboratory, conceded that a comparative bullet lead analysis was scientifically unsupported and led to misleading to the point of false testimony. So not good. Now, he files this motion, this big deal. He's saying his conviction is based on false testimony. He's going on this. And they're going, God, there's so much more. there's just so much more with you little yeah uh they said that uh they

they allowed they allowed his conviction to stand based on the evidence even knowing that the evidence was falsified and so he's a denial of due process and he's got all these different things so much so that he is asking for damages in excess of $1 million for the nearly 20 years he's been in prison based on evidence that the Attorney General of the state of Nevada knows is false. So, yes, he's got a lawsuit here.

He wants $1 million and I don't know. He thinks he was going to make 50 grand a year? Yeah, he writes a letter here saying that, uh, uh, I guess outside on the outside, he's saying, please,

anybody that wants to, he's Roger Libby, number three Oh eight to four, two at Eli state prison. I don't know if that's still him, but he's still alive. We'll talk a little more here. He claimed that a little more about the lead analysis.

And then some, one other thing here, uh, the court looked at his, he says that his counsel now was ineffective because he failed to challenge the forensic evidence. Like he was supposed to know that they didn't know. He's not a scientist.

He doesn't fucking know that. All the science people were saying that's evidence. So what the shit here? He's saying that the counsel should have explored the integrity of the two crime scenes. He's saying that the council should have explored the integrity of the two crime scenes. They also said he faults his counsel for not delving into the reliability of the testimony from state witnesses of experts. And also he points to the Beatty's home, the crime scene, the lag time, 10 days between the time the victims were last seen, the date that they, forensic investigators, processed the evidence. And they said that the presence of water droplets

in the kitchen sink demonstrates the crime scene was compromised. He's saying that there was some sort of environmental... Either that or the environment of it had changed and there'd been humidity

built up in there, something that would compromise all the evidence. Got it. Because we all know if any humidity builds up dna just deteriorates it goes right away it's gone and uh it's just not dna anymore they don't even know what it is it just turns to it turns to nothing turns into somebody else's dna that's what it does that's what i that's what oj said yeah so we keep going back to him today because it's nevada so uh yeah the investigators spent 30 hours processing the scene

and a shell casing later connected to the ammunition found in the blazer was not recovered into until two agents allegedly found it under a bed several days after the subsequent search of the home so they're saying they went it's like a making a murderer thing where they went through it just showed up they found the keys later. They're saying they found the shell casing later on, which that's possible. We don't know. Also, he contends that the investigators failure to determine the number of 22 caliber cartridges found in the partially empty box was an important omission because the shell casing belatedly discovered in the residence could have been taken from the box and placed in the home. That's what he's saying, which is fair yeah this is all fair legal shit here uh uh yeah according to the testimony the shell casing found in the residence was fired by the rifle found in the blazer that's

what they ended up doing and he claims that that's unreliable libby does because the guy failed to explain or demonstrate how he came to that conclusion well ballistics testing is pretty pretty standardized testing. They fire it, and then it's really standard. They put it into a barrel that has just water in there. Yeah, boom, and then they take it, and they look under a microscope, and that's how it works here. That's how it works, Mr. Libby. Yeah, they said the Washoe County Crime Lab was not accredited by a recognized authority at the time.

Well, I think they kind of are the authority because they're the crime lab authorized by the state. The crime lab? Yeah, Washoe County Crime Lab. Sounds like a place. Sounds like pretty official. Sounds accredited as fuck. Oh yeah,

it sounds like the state said you're the crime lab. Right. Process our shit. I don't know. No evidence was presented as to this technician or the lab's proficiency

in the comparison of firing pin impressions. So they're saying that they needed evidence. They needed like people to come and say that they were good at ballistic comparison when it's like they they're authorized by the state to do it that's how that goes and no established no evidence establishing that this that the guy performing the test was certified by any recognized authority

uh one of the record one of the forensic investigators who processed the evidence uh he was qualified as a finger expert, a fingerprint expert at Libby's trial. He just knows all about fingers. Libby alleges that he misrepresented his academic credentials during the testimony by stating that he'd received a Bachelor of Science degree from California State University at Los Angeles. And according to a transcript, he says that he did not complete the degree. So he says that he did not complete the degree.

So he says that he did at one point and then says he didn't. So they're saying, obviously, everything else is a lie. Everything else is a lie. Also, they said that somebody conducted a compositional analysis of the lead and the fragments. That's what we talked about. That's the FBI lab shit that they're saying is inadequate. You can get rid of all of that stuff from that one lab that they said was 60 minutes and talked about and shit. The shell casing,

the defense counsel highlighted its belated discovery for the jury during closing argument. They're saying at one point he said it was quote, interesting that the casing was not found until long after the initial inspection of the scene. And yet another point, he said it was remarkable that the forensic specialists were looking for hairs and did not notice a shell casing.

So the defense lawyer made good cases at closing for it, is what they're saying. So if the jury wanted to consider that, they had that information. This is not new information. He came with this appeal based on new information, and they're saying, no, no, no. It's the same stuff.

Same stuff. They're just trying to look at a different yeah plus that one lamp is like he's looking for hairs he's not looking for bullets yeah that's yeah i mean it's it happens and that is that is something they should look into but it's also there it was presented so who knows here uh they they said that there's a reasonable likelihood that uh even if he would have been success even if basically all that fbi shit got tossed out it was still he was still been convicted is what they're saying here uh so uh he says that uh uh they go back and forth about this shell casing for a long time and they said they're all about marks and pin marks and firing are you qualified to mark a firing pin i have like all this dialogue of people going back and forth about their did you have the wallet in the possinger door sir was it there did you did you jesus he said uh yeah he said it's very simple to make a

photograph with a comparison microscope just like you had on the fingerprints one cartridge against another and they uh and he and the defense says that they disregarded things there. He said, you were told that every time metal touches metal, there will be an imprint, but we haven't had any discussion of the extractor marks or the ejector marks, and they go back and forth and back and forth. Also, Renee Montgomery. Libby alleges that the counsel is ineffective for failing to investigate or challenge her credibility, the one who just wanted to rent the apartment. She no horse in this race nothing just wanted to rent an apartment

she said she testified to the state about her involvement with libby and going him with to with him to the house near the time of the murders as we talked about and uh yeah they're saying libby says he has written statements of six people who were acquainted or had contact with her and with varying degrees of specificity, the statements indicate that Montgomery was a routine drug user and was suspected of various acts of dishonesty, including theft. So he's saying she could have stole all the shit and then put it in my car in Missouri,

actually in the guy's car that I drove. She stole me and put me in that car. And then said, here's keys. And then I walked up to a car to get in it, me and put me in that car and then said here's keys and then i walked up to a car to get in it and i didn't know whose car it was but i was told it was mine she's a drug doing because she does drugs man murdering two men yeah goes in there she was she's she wanted that apartment so bad she was willing to murder for it that's how never mind manhattan real estate or like beverly hills this is cutthroat literally the winamucka apartment market don't fuck with it man lock your doors jesus he claims that uh

a comparison of her statements to police and grand jury testimony and her trial testimony yields several inconsistencies that the council failed to impeach her testimony and uh all that kind of shit so uh, there's so many other claims of ineffective assistance of counsel. There's one where he gets two jurors up there. Oh, my God. They're not jurors. There's these people that he wants to have as witnesses. And there's a guy who said that he thought Libby was under the influence of drugs at the time of a car accident that he was in.

And then another guy. And he wants that to be excluded but the guy at the same time this is the same guy who says that he heard that renee montgomery was intoxicated at the time of her testimony during the trial oh boy so he's trying to get this guy's all his bad stuff about renee montgomery admitted but the bad good stuff but the bad stuff about him excluded this about him excluded they're like you know what go fuck yourself yeah get out of here fuck off he's sent to prison he's done he's in in the eli whatever the hell prison up there yeah uh rotting away waiting to be put to death and uh no no luck on any of his appeals ever no he has no luck on these appeals well he has no appeal on his appeals no i mean

the one the 60 minutes thing that made sense if that was the only thing convicting him that would have been like oh wow but he there's a lot of dead men's stuff when you like imperative things to their life you know his his wallet his atm card these are things the guys don't just give you no and you have no explanation for them i'm gonna you know what i'm gonna do i decided that uh my nephew's here he's kind of annoying me i'm gonna shoot him in the head and cut his throat bury him or just toss him by a ravine i'm gonna then uh shoot myself in the back of the head it's gonna be difficult but then i'm gonna dive into a dumpster as i do it and then when i do that i don't want to waste all this stuff that i own please take all my stuff to missouri i beg you give it my landlord christ take my tools please the thoughts just drive my car who cares the theory all the way

there so bananas winnemucca nevada everybody holy shit so avoid winnemucca nevada is what we're telling you uh here uh winnemucca nevada and that is uh baity and poor robertson i feel bad for robertson that's like the guy i feel the most bad for oh he was student of the year student of the year he didn't know what to do with himself so he's like i don't know i guess i'll go stay with my cool uncle he's 28 you know i'll go stay with him and he's got a cool mining job and i'm in a town that sounds rad swinging winnemucca johnny cash is talking. It's going to be bumping around there. Shazzy sounding shit. So he limps on into town and is promptly murdered for his efforts.

God damn it. What a sad state of affairs, man. What the shit. So yeah, that is Winnemucca. By the way, next week we're going to be, the only hint I said I'll give you is Pennsylvania. It's Pennsylvania and it's a crazy ass case. It's not a famous case, so I don't know why i'm telling you a hint like you're gonna guess it but uh it's a good crazy fucking case podcast reviewing podcast listening uh show going to

ticket purchasing people's great americans bronc roping great humans they're not just americans i do want to say this though for some of, because a couple of you got on our nerves last week about the Jeff Dunham thing. I'm not going to fucking lie about that. It's true. Guess what? We don't care. We don't know if or care if Jeff Dunham's a racist.

I don't care if he's a racist or not. I don't even think he's a racist. That's the thing. I do think he says racist shit through a puppet which doesn't make him a racist it makes him a cynical lazy comedian and a ballless pussy and a ballless pussy yeah say it if you're gonna say it it makes him say what you mean it makes him a cynical shitty comedian because he's basically saying i'll say shit i don't believe that i know is dumb to dumber people to try to get them to fucking laugh at it and i'll not be it's if you knew how

comedians think if you were ever for in a fucking green room with a comedian for five minutes you'd say he's the worst person alive you would agree yeah not because we're saying we've talked to him he's the worst person alive only because that's how comics think so if a comic is doing that he doesn't go out there and go man i've been doing some quality writing lately he goes this ought to fucking fool these cruise ship fat fuck rejects that's what he says this will pay my mortgage this will pay my mortgage and speaking of that if you think for a second that we were jealous of his money you can fucking laugh and laugh and laugh this show itself if we just stopped cursing if we took the e off of small town murder we would have three times the listeners we would make more money than we fucking knew what to do with do we do that no because

that's not a good show that's not how i talk that's not how we talk if you ask me you could trade places with jeff dunham tomorrow no fucking way he can keep his mansion and his shitty goddamn jokes and his cynical bullshit so enjoy your mansion mansion. Keep your you guys are jealous of him shit aside. It's not even it's not even about that. It's just about we were laughing at someone who we thinks makes their living in a cynical, shitty way by by fooling idiots and taking money from them. And if you're if you pay money, if you not, if you haven't, if you if you've paid money twice to see Jeff Dunham, I'm talking about you.

Anybody can make a mistake once. But twice, go fuck yourself. That is the funniest shit I've ever heard. If you've paid money twice to see Jeff Dunham, this is for you. This is for you. Ticket buying, hack joke listening to. Yeah, it's fine. It's not your fault. your fault you're allowed to

like whatever you want and you're allowed to listen to it but as a comedian we're not going to let people get away with that shit no we can't we just can't because if we did then everybody would and everybody would be a hack that's the thing that's what keeps half the comics honest is the fact that they don't want other comics calling them hacks right not that jeff dunham cares what we fucking say about him, but that's how the culture builds, though. You avoid hackery so your peers don't mock you, and that's how it works.

It's comics that we respect, and I don't know if anybody respects me. I don't respect me. But if you do respect me, you don't care about us, then fucking don't be a hack. That's all. Exactly.

What do you think George Carlin would have said about Jeff dunham just that's all i have to say about it grown man with a fucking puppet huh i think he would have said why does the puppet look like me motherfucker yeah that's a good point does the puppet look like me with a turban don't make me say racist shit yeah cocksucker bastard i'll say racist shit if i want to i have the balls i want to say that's exactly right so anyway we just wanted to clarify that because we don't want anybody thinking actually thinking that we were like uh of the jealous type because we are so not like we make a living whatever living it is it doesn't matter i i don't work in a cubicle to be able to make jokes on a podcast my life is fantastic.

I couldn't be jealous of anybody. I wouldn't trade places with anybody right now in the fucking world. I really wouldn't. You have to do it the way you want to do it. Yeah. It's amazing. Never. How many people get to do exactly what they feel like doing for a living?

Exactly what they feel. Not even adjusting at all, frankly. No. Nobody. We get to do that. So we're excited about that shit. It's unbelievable. But that said everybody who is awesome to us thank you guys and uh please if you have not yet get on itunes give

us a review their apple podcast the purple icon or wherever you listen to podcasts but mainly the purple icon because they're crazy with their charts and how they work so it doesn't matter what you say tell us you're following instructions, following directions, or whatever, because it's not really about our egos. We'll say that right now. That said, though, yeah, do that. Go to shutupandgivememurder.com. Do it. You need to go there.

Check out everything. Tons of good merchandise. Also, tickets to live shows, like we said before. They're almost gone. Next week coming up, Omaha sold out. Minneapolis is damn near sold out a few tickets left we can get that I think there was like 50 tickets left

in a huge theater so get those tickets right now not a lot left there and then we have LA and San Diego in September which get those are going fast to all of our tickets at this point are going pretty quickly shows are your ghost town pretty cool we're not going to have any shows we don't think that don't sell out so if try not to do like day of the show we want

to go try to get your tickets now places like milwaukee sold out right and then they added 30 x they were holding 30 extra seats so they they added an extra 30 seats so if you were in milwaukee and disappointed you saw they sold out there's 30 seats i don't know how many now right probably less now also i'll tell you that's the only one that did it. There are no other. Yeah. The tickets that are available are the tickets that are available. So, yeah.

And we don't want people to have to go to StubHub and get robbed or any of that bullshit. So, do all that. Check out the tickets and all that stuff. Go to PayPal, like we said, patreon.com. See you at shows. See you at shows. Do that. And, yeah, if you want to follow us on social media, we are at Murder Small on Twitter,

at Small Town Pod on Facebook, and at Small Town Murder on Instagram. Patreon.com slash crime and sports is where you can give us any amount of money and we're goddamn thrilled about it because, like we said, we get to do what we love to do. And you guys make that for us. You guys allow us to do what we want to do so and you guys make that for us you guys allow us to do what we get want to do for a living and you're you support it so thank you guys so much for that uh paypal also uh crime and sports crime and sports.com there you go sports at gmail.com with that said jimmy good lord i you know what i need it's been a rough week as you know i need the

support i need to hear the names of the best people in the world. Wash over me like a sunny day. Hit me with it, Jimmy. This week's executive producers are Jordan Bennett, Shannon Russell, and Nilou Rafsanjani up there in San Francisco. Thank you guys so much. Thank you so much, guys. Appreciate it. And then the other producers this week are Thomas Smith, Hannah Weber, Deanna Grimes, Debbie Lemming, Thomas Gazowski, Christiane Goudreau,

Tristan Natalie, Benjamin Anderson, Tyler Gwill, Don Dickman, John Knickerbocker, Steve Schnell, Devin Reznikoff, Neil Campbell, Iris Martinez, James Marder, Elizabeth Wilmarth, Wismarth? I think that's Wilmarth. Yes. No. I'm sorry, Elizabeth.

Christina Spalding, Nicole Farach, Larry Butterfast, Tyler Sheets, Shane Brown, Milagros Gonzalez. That's the name of a tequila. That's a great tequila.

Kelsey Robbins, Bill Cisnicki, Emily Warwick, Warwick, yes. Aaron Ishea, of tequila that's a great tequila uh kelsey robbins bill's is nicky uh emily warwick warwick yes uh aaron i she i shake i she act damn it that that one every time trips me callie shinkunas uh lindy cash hit that one perfect i know it's because i've said it a million times i think it's lash it might be cash i'm damn it i don't know uh Bug B U G that with dots in between. So it's like an abbreviation. Thank you.

Jeremy Phillips, James fighter or feeder. Ksenia Ksenia Komarovsky. No, it's not. Comer and Carmen. Comer Comer and Carmen. It's not right. Chelsea and Chelsea Haley. Steven Root.

Ashley Vio. Kimberly Hobby. Krista Walker, Brendan Ables, Micah Boddy, Leroy Walker, Michelle Terry, Bea Hessling, Jude Kendall, Reagan Shalkley. Thank you, Reagan. Justin Miller again. Thanks, Justin. Joseph Blenis. Blenis.

I think I've said it before. Yeah, it's too close to penis. Whatever. it before that yeah it's too close to penis whatever kelly kelly thriss kelly kelly thriss or thirsk thirsk capy uh lorraine lorraine armstrong uh martina liluanga uh amy spicer gary howard jennifer britsman jesse hartman raymond kusher kusker uh christopher hughes christopher hart robert shah sukha sukha sukha adamdaini, Jason Follajay. Thanks, buddy. Sorry we missed you, man.

Yeah, it was a mess. We really appreciate you. Could have used the Cleveland bar that night. Truly. Shannon Smith, Julia Crowley, and she had another last name that I didn't write down because I'm an asshole. Nikki's Shirts and Shit, Lauren Demerath, Liz Vasquez, Sally Morris, Sophia Gamble, Natalie Elrod, Gemma Stedrack Booth, Nadieve Bell, Jeffrey Davis, Zach Knuckles, Katie Kimbrell, Ola Gardner-Lang, St. McNimrod, I know that's a Dan Cummins reference, I don't know what it means, Jefferson Steelflex, that's a kick-ass last name. Or a invented garden hose.

Either way. Sum Schmuck. Michael Joseph Santoro. Phil Luke. Sarah Pethick. Jessica Wilson. Megan Ratcliffe. Ann Snow.

Allie Fawcett. Annamie Hanson. Connor Owens. Erica Tiro. Yeah, I think, yeah, that's not a D. That's Tiro. That's got to D. That's T-R-O. That's got to be. That other way would be terrible.

No, Turner Swift. Yes. Sure. Randy K. Shears. Victoria Gabay. Nancy, with no last name. Frank Mihilich. Mil milhich i don't know one important interesting i appreciate you um kelly cohen uh barbara mosquito that looks like mosquito yeah mosquito uh michael cannon the third bradmouth melhus uh Hilma. No last name. Or that is the last name. Ashley Nelson.

Olivia Descoto. Yes. Emily Lancaster. Sheena with no last name. Delinda Andrews. Andrews-Lewinge. Delinda Andrews-Lewinge. That's what it is.

M. Turner. Eileen Walters. Jazlyn Mitchell. Dylan Irish. Chloe Swain. Sorry, Chloe. God damn it. You're not Cole brett killian ryan mccain sherry sullivan ashlyn wolf maggie quichon or quichan or quichon fuck is that an n or a w okay kimberly fennell uh fennel uh heather i did the first page so much better than this this is i'm really fucking dragging it on home.

Heather Raphael. Falling apart in the home stretch. Kerrigan O'Connor. Daniel Simons. Cadence B. Kelsey Jennison. Tommy Aguilar. Rachel Bridge.

Tanner Rodriguez. Tyler Frazier. Happy birthday from Stephen Root, who actually, he turned Stephen on to the show. Thank you. Thank you. Aaron Janicek. Kip Soosley, Cynthia Munford, Hunter Wishart, Sarah Braddock, Catherine Judd, J.J. Kimball, Kendall, Cynthia Munford. I said that. Danielle Childs, Jasan Owens-Addison, Sarah Bellum, Gillette.

I don't know if that's right. H.N. with no last name, Heather Neifert, Scott Estep, Jennifer Smith, Zoe Graham, Esther Garza, Taryn Wells, Joni McGuire, Johnny Oleren, Ashley, that's a terrible last name, Naila Wajka? Wasker? Wow. I'm so sorry, Ashley. That's not an easy one for me to pronounce. Worst of mine.

Yeah. Trevor Gordon, Cody O'Brien, Dan Johnson, Christopher Dilley. And yeah, that's it. And all of our Patreon supporters, you guys, you really bring it home. And thank you. Thank you so much, everybody. Yes. Really, on tough weeks like this.

And it's not just obviously every dime you give us is above and beyond we can't even tell you how much we appreciate that but it's that support too it's we i don't know when we have tough weeks it's you guys we can lean on you guys kind of just the fact that you're there really helps prop you up sometimes it's like a it's like if someone looks like they're standing up straight and then there's you know like a stick in their back like holding them up like a like a manne they're standing up straight and then there's a stick in their back holding them up like a mannequin that's not well-balanced. That's what we are.

Poorly balanced mannequins. The two guys on the side of Bernie in Weekend at Bernie's. That's what it is. You guys are helping us dance through this. Sometimes we have bad days and that's what helps a lot. Thank you so much for that. What if somebody wanted to thank you for something, Jimmy?

How could they do it? You can find me at WismanSucks, W-H-I-S-M-A-N Sucks, on Twitter, Instagram, and Snapchat. And I'm doing my best to keep up with you guys. Thank you so much for all the messages. And apologies for those who we couldn't make it to see in Ohio this past weekend. Yes, we are sorry. I got your messages. We did our best.

It was a mess. I got them late. It was just a bananas weekend. We had a weird—we play in Cleveland. Yeah, thank you guys so much for being involved. We did our best. It was a mess. I got them late. It was just a bananas weekend. We had a weird. But thank you, guys. We blame Cleveland. Yeah, thank you guys so much for being involved. Thank you. Where can they find you?

Well, you can find me at Jimmy P is funny or copy and paste my last name from the show description and just do it that way. Make it easier on all of us. Yeah. And with that said, everybody, good Lord, another one in the books. Yeah. And next week, crazy episode and live shows too next week. And also bonus episode

we're going to put it on Patreon this week we're going to do a very very funny prisoner dating game that we have all mapped out for that

so with that said good lord everybody until next week everybody it's been our pleasure bye Whatever struggles you're facing from depression and anxiety to trauma and grief, BetterHelp can connect you with a professional counselor in a safe and private online environment. It's so convenient you can schedule secure video or phone sessions

as well as chat and text with your therapist. And anything you share is completely confidential. Best of all, it's a truly affordable option. Small Town Murder listeners even get 10% off your first month with the discount code SMALLTOWNMURDER. So why not get started? Simply go to betterhelp.com slash smalltownmurder and fill out a questionnaire to get matched with a counselor that you'll love today.

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