Small Town Murder - #173 - Three Is A Ring, Four Is A Crowd in Marmaduke, Arkansas

Episode Date: May 28, 2020

This week, in Marmaduke, Arkansas, two couples become close friends, and even more, until a proposition for an unconventional "business proposition" turns certain people against certain others. In the end, the only solution is... someone has to die. The question is, will the right person suffer the consequences for their actions? What a wild one! Along the way, we find out Marmaduke is named after an actual man, that you shouldn't be surprised when your friend doesn't want his wife to be a prostitute, and that the person pulling the trigger doesn't always get the worst punishment!! Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman New episodes every Thursday! Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com & use our email: [e-mail] Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports! Follow us on... twitter.com/@murdersmall facebook.com/smalltownpod instagram.com/smalltownmurder Also, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts# See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Marmaduke, Arkansas, two couples become close friends until sex, lies, and a crazy business proposition make it so all four people can't possibly exist at the same time, and the only solution is somebody has to die.

Welcome to Small Town Murder. Yay! Yay, indeed, Jimmy. Yay, indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I am Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us. We are super excited excited this week which is a weird thing to say about murder but you know what so what it's a crazy story and a crazy show and uh it's a wild one this is arkansas right here this week we're going to arkansas and you're going to know it by the story because it is wild buckle

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You can do all of that. And that said, let's get on with the disclaimer. We have to do that. It's a comedy show. We have to warn you ahead of time. It's a comedy show. Small town murder. Oh, maybe it's like a dateline.

It's not. All the stories are just as true as dateline. Maybe more true. I don't know what they're doing with their stories, but I know that this is all true. We don't make anything up for comic effect or anything like that, but around a crazy story, there's a lot of crazy things happening oftentimes,

and we find those crazy things and talk about them. That's how this works. So it's a good time. We have fun. If that sounds good to you, then we're going to have a blast. If it doesn't sound good to you, you should take off.

But I'll tell you one thing. Before you go, we do go out of our way If it doesn't sound good to you, you should take off. But I'll tell you one thing. Before you go, we do go out of our way to make sure not to make fun of the victims or the victims' families. Because we're assholes, but we're not scumbags. That's how that works. So everybody on board, good stuff here. I think it's time. It's time to sit back, relax.

Scare everything away. Shout it out, shut up and give me murder. Let's go on a trip, Jimmy. Great. Let's do this. I don't know why we're doing it, but we're going to, for some reason, all the way to Arkansas. They brought us here.

Oh boy. We were in Idaho last week. It's been quite, Alabama, then Idaho, now we're in Arkansas. Oh boy. It's been quite the journey here the last few weeks. We are in Marmaduke, Arkansas. Okay. Yes, Marmaduke, Arkansas.

Like the dog. Let's find out if it was named after a cartoon dog or not here. How old was that fucker? Let's see here. It's in northeastern Arkansas in just a little panhandle. Oh, in the tip up there? A little tip. Two little tips that come out.

Yeah, it's a little Arkansas panhandle, which out up there a little tip a little two little tips that come out yeah it's a little arkansas panhandle which is frightening yeah because i've seen dead in the middle of the pan and that's frightening in arkansas so it's a little scary it's a weird state i would say two hours and 40 minutes over to little rock about an hour and 40 down to memphis okay if you want to go someplace i'm better i guess four hours to Ida, Arkansas, which was episode 133, our last Arkansas episode, which was August last year. So we're getting back in the groove of Arkansas. This is in Greene County. Zip code 72436.

Area code 870. It's a small town. 1.3 square miles. Super small. Little small town with a bunch of rural shit spread out around it. Most of the people live in... It rural there's everybody's has a couple acres we'll talk about it in the real estate report but town motto here this is right off the website and this is the only one i could find and it's pretty weak i gotta say it's one of those they didn't even like a work and play and do like one of those it's city of Marmaduke. A nice place to live.

This one, too. Nice place. Come on over. Us, too. Us, too. Then I did a little extra research. You got to go through that extra layer of the onion, as I'm sure you found out from you researching an episode yourself. What a blast.

You got to go a little deeper. James, I started researching another man. I've done it before. Oh, I've done it before. I'm like, what? Iowa? How did he get there? i've done it before oh i've done it before iowa how did he get there i've done it plenty of time looking up a court case i'm like he did this too what a monster and i'm like wait a second he's already in prison how'd this happen yeah no i found another town motto though if you dig a little deeper and it's quote if you leave food on the counter it's ours so i don't know it's a little down cartoon i don't know so the history of this town the town of marm we need to know why the fuck it's called marmaduke i feel like right off the bat because it's our it's a joke it's the the pop culture reference is more powerful than

whatever the history is oh by far yeah that's overcome it which is strange because the person that's named after is a very interesting man yeah here it's a confederate major general john sappington marmaduke which sounds completely made up this is major general john sappington marmaduke and he comes out with like a mustache that goes all over his mouth in a cartoon with like more medals than you know what i mean the whole shirt is just medals it's like a ridiculous got to prop him up so he doesn't throw out his back. He goes, he tips forward. He's got so many medals. Tip the general back up.

He's like, I'm sorry. I'm too much of a hero. And he ends in there. He later also was governor of Missouri. Really? They elected John Sappington Marmaduke. No kidding. As their leader in Missouri.

Now, Marmaduke was said to have established a camp for his soldiers near the site of the present town. So there's a rumor that he passed through near the town. Therefore, they just named it after him. He was nearby. He's the best person that's been the closest to our shithole town. It's in the middle of nowhere. This is in the middle of nowhere, everybody.

There's no highway. This is just, there it is. Keep on driving until you don't see roads no more, and you're almost there. That's the kind of town we're talking about here. It's not off the 40, you know what I'm saying? It's like that hotel off the 40 in New Mexico where they're like, we had a famous guest once, but it's obvious that their bus broke down, and they just fucking happened to stay there.

Well, we got to stay here for the night until the park comes in so it's like a doc hollywood situation they kidnapped michael j fox their driver just loved to drink and was too drunk to keep going he's just shit he's like the league of their own driver not taking it anymore sometimes you gotta pull it over where'd lou go where's lou i'm fucking lou it's a totally different movie please let us stay lou i'm sorry that's the best line in the movie so anyway uh that's when they decided to have a town here now marmaduke is an interesting guy yeah because generally i'll just tell you this let me just read a sentence for you and you tell me what you think about it marmaduke never married and his two nieces served as hostesses

at the governor's mansion yeah yes uh what i what you just thought that's what everybody thought it's the same thing with uh buchanan the president had his niece be the you know the welcoming committee yeah the governess basically, the welcoming committee. Yeah, the governess, basically, in the White House. And you're like, hmm, I don't know about that. What's happening here? Is this that eyeliner you're wearing? You're the most powerful man in the country. There's nothing wrong.

Why don't you have women all over the place? Yeah, you don't want them. Nothing wrong with it. Do whatever you want. If you want to be a gay Confederate general, that's up to you. Just because you're gay doesn't mean that you can't be a confederate general but like an old-timey southern accented man who's leading men in a very effeminate manner is a hilarious picture just boys boys boys they're that way the ones in blue

boys just that because it's just the southern you know he's just gonna he's gonna kind of sound like doc holiday in tombstone anyway just have a very upper crusty this boy this blue x on the red really crash it the clashes it looks like shit he's gonna sound like truman capote i feel like that's what he's doing john marmaduke Capote over here. Barely moving his hips. Yeah, yeah, that's it. Boys. Boys. Boys. No, formation away from me. I like to watch you walk away.

General. Since you're belt-tied, I like to see your hips. Major General. Get out of there. Is that a bayonet in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me, Major General? Jesus Christ. So, yeah. Get out of there. Is that a bayonet in your pocket? Are you just happy to see me, Major General? Jesus Christ. So, yeah.

His great-grandfather was also a governor of Missouri, and he, like his great-grandfather, died while in office as the governor. No kidding. Yeah, he died of pneumonia in 1887 in Jefferson City, and he was buried there, and he still had nothing to do with this town, and they named it after him anyway. They don't give a shit. They died of that a lot back then that's what happened common oh shit yeah they'd just be like i got a little cough i'll still go outside and do whatever i gotta do full i can't breathe oh well and then they just died it's over not a lot of help for those people back then so the the railroad came through in 1882 texas and st louis railroad that

made it a big deal in this town and it was incorporated in 1909 by 1914 holy shit the place is booming banging two drug stores not one but two three banks oh three restaurants yeah i mean come on a methodist and a southern baptist church they didn't even burn each other down we're being nice that's a start yeah that's good uh two barber shops which you know yeah i don't know the the good barber and the bad barber how that worked classy one into the dregs that place is shit yeah one guy's doing like you know uh 50 cents and the other guys have got a two dollar nice job and he puts the nice like oil in your hair and stuff and back then makes it smell nice because people didn't shower sit with a hot towel on your neck and give you a good shave yeah there was a hotel gotta

have that a boarding house hell yeah you gotta have somewhere for those lower level barbershop people to stay after they're done with their haircut and two dime stores two really i guess it's like a department store back then kind of the they had a sawmill a lumber mill a stave mill this place is really popping booming i love everything timber cut cut timber distributors well place is crazy and nowadays though they have anchor plastics company oh so you can work there which sounds like it smells like chemicals yeah it doesn't sound like it smells good oh i know what that is that's that company that makes like cookware and shit. Probably. They make plastic shit. Whatever plastic is, they're making that shit.

And also the American Rail Car Company's there. The community was basically destroyed by a severe tornado in 2006, April 2nd. At least half the town was reported to have been destroyed. Half the town. Post 9-11? Fucking gone. 2006. Or even, as they put it flattened not just gone yeah not

just fucked up foundation where'd the house fucking go everybody i don't know it's in memphis probably it's i check memphis because it's not around here flattened oh boy nearly every structure received some sort of damage just it fucked up the whole it's a small town so if it goes through it's just going to destroy everything those tornadoes are fucking incredible they're wild no one was killed really but 50 people were injured some seriously it's amazing that no one was killed considering that everything was destroyed and then in 2009 just as they had rebuilt a little bit a major ice storm came across the northern part of of arkansas uh causing them to lose electricity for like a month wow uh since then they basically in the last 11 years they're

almost fully recovered from the tornado and the ice storm the fucking hellscape they're almost there yeah it's a it's thunderdome that's what's going on here it's you're just racing for gas across the it's nuts it doesn't sound good no and it really sounds like but from the reviews it sounds like the town in doc hollywood it's this is the town in doc hollywood this is where you get stuck and then people pay you in pigs the shit's weird here's a review here and these are good reviews too but they to me sound just terrible but some people they might sound quaint and charming uh three stars here uh marmaduke lacks most conveniences including fresh groceries okay that's one star right there i can't get food fresh i'm eating all the shitty things yeah

there's like a everything's bad it's probably like a convenience store not an actual grocery store including fresh groceries good food and fun things to do. Why is it three stars? That sounds awful. I grew up in the city and missed my quick fun runs. Where'd you grow up? It is a quiet and peaceful town, though, if that's what you're looking for. So three stars, I guess. What's the difference between running there and running somewhere else?

That's what I mean. Here's a four-star review. They love this fucking place. Marmaduke is a tiny town, but the people are very friendly and will talk to anyone. Nightmare. Yeah. That's a tiny town. Hi.

Fuck off. Go away. I don't know you. That sounds like a nightmare. You just have to talk to people. Is that what it's like living in a small town? I guess. Do you just talk to people as you pass them because you know them?

Because they live there and there's only a thousand of you. Even if you don't know them, do you have to get to know them that's what i'm saying what's what's the deal with that like if you're in an aisle in the grocery store and you're what you're looking on one side and the other person's looking on the other we gotta start talking about our fucking resume they're gonna strike up a conversation with me i feel like fuck you that's what i do i look for cereal leave me alone that's what i'm doing right now i do i'm gonna fuck your mother yeah that's what I'm doing right now. What if I do? I'm going to fuck your mother. Yeah, that's what I'm going to do. Where is she? Point me to your mother. And also, do you think these new chocolate Lucky Charms are good? They look delicious, but what do you think of these?

I love these peanut butter pops. That's what I'm looking at. If you have an opinion on those, we'll talk. So everyone in town, Jesus Christ, anyone will talk to you. I love living in Marmaduke because you know everyone in town. Again, nightmare. If you need to borrow something, you can ask any of your neighbors. So there's people knocking on your door asking for shit all the time.

That's tough, too. I don't like this friend thing that people have. And they are likely to let you borrow it. Well, that's good. At least if you knock on the door, they don't tell you to go fuck yourself. Thanks for bothering me. Yes, you can go get my weed whacker. Hey, you fucked my mother.

No, I'm not lending you any sugar now. That's right. Karma's a bitch, isn't it? I remember you. Enjoy your cereal. So everyone helps each other, and that is the key to a pleasant town. Knowing everyone has its good and bads, everyone knows everything in a small town. Marmaduke is a fantastic town.

So there you go. That's where we're at. So these people like it. Yeah. If you watch Doc Hollywood, if that looks good to you, then move to Marmaduke because that's exactly where we're at. The population in this town hasn't moved much in the last, oh, I don't know, 40 years or so.

Yeah. Pretty much within a couple hundred people. The population here is 1,331 people. Okay. So not that many. And it's up 14% since 1990. Don't know why people are coming here. It's happening.

Maybe they're just reproducing at a greater rate. I don't know. There's a sawmill. You never know. Who knows what the plastics factories dumping in the water supply and causing fertility rates to spike or some shit. We don't know. Let's find out, though.

And I think that might be what it is, because, I mean, I'm not trying to throw any legal besmirchment on the Anchor Plastics Company, but the female population is way higher than the males, too. It's almost 56% female, which is way out of whack. The kids, like ages 5 to 14, are double the normal population of those. So they're fertile as shit in this town. People are just popping kids out like crazy. Married population's about normal, which I figured in this town people are just it's happening popping kids out like crazy married populations about normal which i figured it would be more but it's not

divorced though is way higher it's usually 10 here it's 26 divorced yeah so that's just that's a lot i don't know more widowed people than normal yeah they're gonna get rid of you as a spouse somehow you know staying together through death or legal means, it doesn't matter. Better or worse, richer or poorer, get the fuck out. Get the fuck out. A race of this town is 91.2% white.

So very white. 0.0% black. Wedged in Arkansas between an hour 40 from Memphis. See, that seems on purpose. Whenever I see that in an area where there's there's stuff there's black people like they're around it's not like it's you know northern idaho

where you're like there's just not a lot of black people here it's not that it's like no no they're there but they don't they're not here they're not moving so that's the thing uh 0.0 percent asian 0.0 percent native american 0.0 percent% everything but Hispanic, 8.2% Hispanic. So there's that. Religion here, 56% are religious, which is over the normal. No surprise here, 36% Baptist. Baptists are the Catholics of the South. As we know, it's 1% Catholic.

I assume that's the Hispanic people there, probably. A couple of Lutherans throw a Methodist in for good measure, a Pentecostal for everyone to make fun of, and you got yourself something. 0.0% Jewish, though. Not happening. Nope, don't think so. Not Marmaduke.

No. The politics in this town are pretty conservative. Last election, 21% Democrat and 74% Republican, so pretty conservative here unemployment rate in this town it's about normal a little higher but no no not too off too far but what is off is the household income which is super low normally it's almost 58 000 in the rest of the country here 34 000 low yeah very low uh 57 of the people here make $40,000 a year or less. Households, not people.

57% of households make $40,000 a year or less. Think about that. 43% are making over $40,000 a year. Yeah. My word. That's tough, man. That's a tough way to make a living. Manufacturing jobs are 26% of the the jobs which normally it's 10 and manufacturing

jobs tend to come and go at times so when it's that much of it or plastics place that's what i mean when it's that much of the of the thing if that goes away that's this is a town that implodes and you hope you get another a walmart or something because you're fucked basically so uh the cost of living in this town luckily for them them, is a little bit lower. Normally, it's 100 is average par. Here it is 70, which is not great, but the housing is extremely low. 33 out of 100 for housing. Median home cost here, $77,800. Very low.

83% of the houses are worth $100,000 or less in this area. It fucking better be for no money. And you'll see why, because a lot of them are shitholes. They're temporary. They're dumps, man. Let's see here. If we've convinced you, damn it, the only place for you to go is Marmaduke, Arkansas, we have for you the Marmaduke, Arkansas real estate report.

Arkansas Real Estate Report. Your average two-bedroom rental here is a little under 700 bucks a month, so still seems high. Yeah. That's a little high. That seems very high. I found a place here. It is 0.89 acres, so almost a whole acre. It's awful, Jimmy.

I have a picture of it for you. Can you? Holy shit. It's an abandoned trailer that looks like no one's lived there since, I don't know, the Great Depression. Right. With a bunch of brown weeds around it, basically. It looks like the album cover of a band that's trying to seem folksy. That's, it's folksy and that they might be serial killers also. You're not sure.

We have some dark undertones for our music but also we want to relate to people with nothing 8 500 bucks for that dump of a shithole i found a five acre lot yeah five acres 31 900 bucks there's like a little pond in it and shit but i'm sure it's just full of mosquito larva it's disgusting i I found my products of plastic. Oh, you know, it prepped floating four bedroom, two bath, 2368 square feet. Ugliest sin. Yeah. Ugly shit house on two acres. Mind you, two acres, $103,082.

Very specific acres, two acres and a big house. Right. Almost 2400 square feet. 100 grand. So cheap. Sweetesus that's how little you want to live here yeah they're like please we'll get it's we'll put a house two acres we're only making enough money to like make you have to have a job and be here that's all it is barely yeah like you could work in town live like a king it's's amazing. It's a dump, though. And $103,082 is very specific.

Yeah. No, not $85. Well, how about $80? Not $80. So, yeah. Things to do in this town, as you might imagine, it's just overrun with things to do. Really, there's nothing to do here. But I did find the program from last year's Marmaduke Independence Day celebration.

Oh, boy. July 4th. We are celebrating. Oh, my. They had quite the celebration here. On Friday, June 29th, they had a, at 6 p.m., there was a beauty contest

for six- to nine-year-olds. Not even like a pageant. A beauty contest. We don't care what they can do. Which one's prettier? That's gross that is super creepy i would say the six to nine year old beauty kind no like a pageant's one thing because they do perform shit and if it's whatever i'm not saying they're great either it's fine

that's fine this is weird this is like some jean benet weird shit i don't like it at all 7 p.m if you don't like that you're gonna hate this it's the 10 to 12 year old beauty contest even worse even worse even worse there's guys in the audience going there might be grass on that field that's all i'm saying that's all i'm saying now i ain't trying to say she looks convincing looks looks 16 to me right i mean that's the age right 16 is legal right no shit i don't know i better find out because my girlfriend is 11 so i thought i only had five more years to go turns out i got a few more shit i'm gonna have to dump her her little sister's cute though i got my eye on her for

another time i don't like i don't like anything to do with no beauty pad we have daughters that's this is why we don't want anybody being like look how adorable just put her on a stage and have everybody just marvel at her beauty that's creepy as shit yeah then at 8 p.m to break it up a little bit the punches band the it's a bluegrass gospel band in between you ogling children and that's a picture of them it's a family you know that looks like they just got home from church and apparently they're gonna sing some bluegrass gospel for you then sing about jesus to make it cleanse you and feel less gross about yeah the spank bank that you just filled with our children oh my god jesus christ 9 p.m then we're gonna close out the night with a late night 13 to 15 year old beauty contest no

which is just horrible i feel like it's dark out yeah the headliner main event the headliner is this is still illegal they had an intermission with a fucking bluegrass band to be like almost legal these girls are almost legal the girls are gonna see you're gonna fuck next year like that's not okay i'm not okay with this not cool man i don't mean to besmirch the punches obviously it's probably not their song that's terrible that that's what you're putting the soundtrack to that's disgusting and then uh the the next day once you know we all recover from that saturday 9 a.m get out there fresh and early with the parade uh beginning at the fire department.

Then, with 9.30, we're going to do the national anthem and a recognition of Little League teams. Because they're the same. Fallen soldiers and Little Leaguers, everyone we're going to honor now. 10 a.m., the baby contest. Oh, my God. Girls and boys ages newborn to 12 months. Do they look at anything that's illegal to look at? No.

Well, you're going to shit when you hear this. The next. Well, OK. Eleven thirty. Gary Duren family will be performing. I'm sure they look just like the punches. Then after that at two thirty. Speaking of exactly what you were saying, it's a youth talent contest.

Under 18. You have to be, though. It's an all-pervert weekend. Nobody of age is allowed to be on a stage here. Do you think you... This place is a pedophile's dream. Do you hate that we make fun of you? Fucking fix it! Vans come from hundreds of miles around,

guys in creepy mustaches. Why is the crowd all 48-year-old men with creepy mustaches? What's going on? Why has everybody got a pocket full of butterscotch? What is this? They all have a bulge in their shirt with a red light blinking. What is that, a camera? I'm sure they're all filming it.

This is not okay. So that's the beauty contest. Then at 3.30, the punches are back. The punches are back in town. Encore. Then a beauty contest for girls and boys ages three to five years old. It's every category. Then at 6 p.m., the fabulous Stillbillies will be performing.

That's the Roland Green Band, it says in parentheses, if you don't know the fabulous Stillbillies. And then at 8 p.m. The moonshining, I think. I think so the fabulous stillbillies and then at 8 p.m moonshining i think i think so the stillbillies then at 8 p.m it's the beauty contest of of 16 years old to seniors in high school do you have to be in high school and this one it says uh you have to be uh in a marmaduke school district for this to be okay. Then at 9.30, fireworks. Great. Yay. Potluck Lunch is there.

There's a Jeep show. I like that. And a chance of a $500 cash drawing. So everybody, get down there. Put your pedophile shoes on. Oh, my God. Get yourself cracking. Pervert weekend.

Jesus. It's a whole pervert weekend. It's disgusting. So gross. That's a weird place to be. And if you feel great about doing that for the kids, you're a monster. You're a weird, weird, weird, strange fucking person here. So crime rate in this town. What we are interested in here, property crime is just above average.

Just kind of creeping up there, but not too high. Violent crime, though. Murder, rape, robbery, and, of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is about 20% high. So they're not that nice to you. They will kill you here. Watch out. You never know.

Sometimes you've got to make a kid disappear so they don't talk. I was going to say, sometimes you see somebody enjoying the beauty contest a little too much and you've got to take them around the side of the barn. That's my daughter, motherfucker. He hasn't even blanked since i don't know 8 45 this morning he ain't blanked i don't understand he's used five phones worth of pictures he just keeps taking them whipping different ones out i don't know what the hell's going on tell aiden put his vest back on his clouds full i think i don't know what's going on so they're buying memory for the cloud. I don't know what's going on. Somebody's buying memory for the cloud. He's going to need memory.

You're going to need memory, Chester, for the crowd. His name's actually Chester. It's weird. That's how it is here in Marmaduke. It's a nice place to live. Buying six gigs of cloud memory. Don't need it just for this contest. For the children.

Let's talk about a murder, Jimmy. All right. What do you say? Somehow, this is a weird thing to say, let's cleanse the palate with a murder. A murder is less gross than what we just talked about. Let's get wholesome now, James. Let's get wholesome with some people, some adults murdering each other. What do you say? Let's do this here.

In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Erin and Justin sit down to discuss a new case,

covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence, and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx,

and I'm excited to bring you The Official Jinx Podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of Part 1 and watching along with Part 2 as it airs on Max, starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The Official Jinx Podcast. Listen on Max, starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The official Jinx podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid.

We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great.

A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother****er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal or you love to hop in the way back machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes you should tune in to our podcast morbid follow morbid on the wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts you can listen to episodes early and ad free by

joining wondery plus and the wondery app or Podcasts. Let's talk about a murder. Let's talk about, we'll go back in time a bit, first of all. We gotta go back in time. Now, if you think this place sounds, that just happened last year, that whole thing. Imagine it back in 1979. Oh, boy. Oh, boy, is it rural.

Oh, no. I mean, people are sitting there. This is like, it sounds like they're literally just in overalls with a stalk sticking out of their mouth with convoy playing on the radio in a fucking loop. I feel like that's 1979, rural, rural, extremely rural Arkansas. It sounds interesting here. So April 28th, 1979, in the morning time, a couple of fellas go out turkey hunting. Hell yeah.

Turkey hunting's big around here. It is. So they're going out to a rural area just outside Marmaduke. It's all gravel roads out in this area. They pull off to the side of the gravel road, as one does in this area, get out, get their rifles, going to go turkey hunting. Shotguns. What the fuck do you shoot turkeys with?

Usually a shotgun. A shotgun. But then, would a rifle blow it apart, but then a shotgun, wouldn't you have to pick pellets out? Right. That's what I was just thinking about. A shotgun's generally how you do it, but... Yeah.

To not blow a big hole in the thing, I guess. Yeah. I don't know. I guess you could use... Maybe you just run it down and grab it by the head and swing it. On the way to the car. Break the neck and throw it in the trunk. Wow, that's some combat turkey hunting.

You got to run it down. You know what? If you had to run it down and catch it with your bare hands and swing it around. You deserve that dinner. You know what? Yeah, that's nature. You've earned it. That is mammal against bird.

Right. That's nature on nature. You have no advantages. You caught him. You're faster and you're going to eat him now. That's how nature works. Right. No weapons.

But I feel like otherwise a turkey, no matter what you do, it's going to really fuck the turkey up as far as to eat it. Yeah, it seems like that's an extra bunch of work to do to get the- Yeah, to pick the pellets out. But also- People will tell us. You got to fucking take the feathers off it and all that shit, too. It's a nightmare. Yeah, I know.

That's not easy. No, to dress a bird, I guess, is difficult. To prepare it? Yeah, because my grandma, Italian grandma, Jesus Christ, I don't even know if I should tell this story. It's so insane. And will reveal just what a fucking old world barbarian she is. Her and my other family.

They went to the cemetery to visit somebody. I don't know. Somebody dead. And while they're there, cemetery's back east. I'm sure you've seen pictures they're nice rolling hills little ponds well in all these ponds happen to be shit loads of ducks that people usually feed yeah when they go then they go relax and the kids it's a thing like oh you went to the cemetery so now you get to feed the ducks with the kids well Well, my grandmother and a couple of her sisters saw this as, oh, my three ducks eat.

So they went and kidnapped ducks and put them in the trunk of the car like gangsters, drove them to the Bronx, and went down in the basement and fucking, you know, de-feathered and did the whole thing with these ducks and it was free. Oh, there's this place you go and there's just free ducks

no that's not how this shit works you don't have to be a hunter-gatherer here no you can go to the store no they were like oh look at that let's take the ducks

and they just started grabbing ducks stuffing them in the trunk like they owed them money or something meanwhile the kids have been fattening

them up for that's what I mean you're supposed to feed the ducks not use them as food that's the difference it's like a so there's that's not feed on the duck yeah that cemetery had two less ducks and then later on years later when i was a teenager i went to that cemetery and

got attacked by ducks and i feel like they knew i feel like they could tell petrogallo right there they knew it they knew it they fucking knew it they were like you know what we're getting you back see him there remember phil yeah no you know what? We're getting you back. See him. Remember Phil? Yeah. No, you don't. Well, guess what? We fucking do. We're going to talk to you. Guess who does remember him?

We remember him. So these two turkey hunters get out on the side of a gravel road. They're walking along, looking for a place to head into the woods. And what they find instead is a grown man, looks to be in his 30s, absolutely riddled with bullets. Oh, no. And very, very dead. Not decomposed or anything like that. Looks pretty fresh, actually, but definitely just covered in bullet holes and full of blood and just on the side of a gravel road in the middle of nowhere.

Right. So that ends the day of turkey hunting, obviously. That's it. No fun there anymore. Well, I guess we caught our limit right i i got a guy instead well we found a turkey all right yeah it's over for him which is hilarious too because if you're a hunter i always so many of these bodies are found by hunters yeah and i always feel like if i'm a hunter and i'm standing there with my gun and i see a dead body that's been shot recently, I'm like, am I going to call this in really? Hi, how you doing?

As they get there with my gun over my shoulder, found this shot guy right here. Even if, you know, ballistics later on, but at the time for the time being, they're going to be suspicious of you probably. Hey, officer, if I found a body that's shot, I'm out in the woods now. I've got a gun on me. Is that make me prime suspect? Is that bad? I didn I found a body that's shot, I'm out in the woods now. I've got a gun on me. Does that make me prime suspect? Is that bad? I didn't find a body. I didn't.

Nope. But just in case, I did find one. I was just thinking about it. You read a lot of stories and things. You know, I've seen the news. Just in case, I'm like, I could come across a body at some point. I've got to go. Yeah.

People are always anxious to report bodies when they find them. And I mean, why? I mean, I get closure or whatever. I don't know. But I don't I don't know if I'd be I'm being perfectly honest with you. And maybe this makes me a terrible person. I don't know if I would. I might just be like, well, I'm going this direction now.

You know what I'm saying? Like, it might be like if you walked in yeah i'm like you know two people blowing each other they weren't that you didn't know we're in a you'd be like oh i'm sorry jesus i feel like that's not my business that's not my business oh jesus i don't know you i didn't kill you i don't know anything about it i was none of my business i feel like that's how i would be now i guess if i was missing someone and they were in the woods and someone came across them i'd want them to report it. But still, I don't know if I'm that good of a person.

I think it depends on the place and what the position. And if it's super obvious that something really horrible just happened and I know I'm not capable of that, I might report that. Or it's been there a while, like the guy that reported Heyman Lee. I think everybody that knows me knows I'm not capable of that shit i'm gonna go ahead and call this one in that's it and it's and it's also a place of where it is in terms of is this a place bodies normally are right like that's what i didn't get with the hayman lee thing and the whole serial saga with that and on and everything like not that that's a saga it's a real life thing but that's what i didn't get is the guy who who found her and reported her that's leakin park Park. Like, literally, in the homicide book, David Simon talks about how they train trainee cops.

You know, look, they take them out to look for things when they're in a big investigation. And they took one class out to Leakin Park, Leakin Park to look for a specific body. And they literally told the class, half joking and half serious don't go grabbing every body you find we'll be out here all fucking day we're looking for this body that's it leave the others because there's gonna be others and we don't give a fuck about that right now ours right we're busy with other shit i mean that's you know what i mean like if you're in a place like that like it'd be like fishing and be like i got an arm in the east river and you know in the 70s you go well that's probably a mob guy i'm none of my fucking business i'm putting it back down you got to treat it like

you're actually fishing and be like i'm not fishing for pike and throw that fucker back that's what i mean i'm looking for trout today either way i'm that's not what i'm looking for that's not the one i want the hudson i'm looking for striped bass everything else in here is toxic fuck this place no so that's what it is they find this body here and we'll get to who that is in a little bit here but it's like i said about a man in his 30s riddled with bullets on the side of the road and anything out there it has to be on purpose nobody just wandered out to the middle of nowhere like that so let's talk about some people here let's talk about a couple first of all uh jerry lynn rolson yeah jerry we'll just call him jerry jerry's born in 1945 so you know he's

in his 30s here this date in the 70s 1979 and he's got a wife this is his second wife her name is cecilia ann rolson and cecilia is spelled c-e-c-e which is makes very complicated when you're looking things up isn't't that how Cecilia's spelled? Most people spell it with an I. It's the more common spelling I found this week, because I didn't know this before, is C-E-C-I. L-I-A? Yeah, L-I-A. I didn't know that.

I didn't know that either. Apparently it's this, so whatever. So Cecilia Ann Rolson, she's born in 1950. Yeah, I guess you're right. Yeah, I never knew. They misspell we'll talk but they misspell her name all over the place yeah so uh well you'll hear she's your pain cecilia it gets worse for cecilia don't worry don't you worry cecilia has quite an odd run of it

here she's born in 1950 so she's 29 at this point in time not quite quite 29 yet. Now, the Rolson's live in Marmaduke, and they run a small grocery store, a little tiny grocery store here. And it's, you know, I guess probably the only grocery store in town, or at least one of two. There's not a lot of shit going on. I mean, today a review said no fresh groceries. So it's not a town that's spewing with grocery stores. So they own a small grocery store that they operate.

And Jerry is also into the public works here. He's a member of the City Council Landfill Commission. So, hey, big guy there. He's practically a lord. Hell, yeah. City landfill. Oh, sir, come right right in we have a table for you it's our best table here hey the city the city county landfill commission board guy is here

come on fucking look alive everybody so jerry has a 13 year old son named jerry uh yeah it's not he's not a junior different middle name but he he's still Jerry from a previous marriage. So I don't think he lives with them full time, but he sees Jerry. Jerry sees Jerry and he has a new wife here, Cecilia. And that's how this is all working. Now they run this grocery store and the who ends up moving in near them is another couple, a named carl lipe and he's born in 1946 so they're all around the same age here you know and his wife rose who's about cecilia's age so everybody's around the same age and within a few years of each other we should be friends we should

all be friends especially in a little town like this i don't know how many like couples of this age there are so you probably don't have a lot of people to hang out with of course you find people you match up with age-wise and you know whatever as long as they're not into crazy shit you're whatever you'll be friends with them at that point so they become acquainted when the role set uh well they become acquainted when the lipes move into a house behind the grocery store okay so that's how they end up got it yeah if one person you live right there you're gonna go to the grocery store all the. So that's how they end up. Got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If one person, you live right there, you're going to go to the grocery store all the time. Hey, I see you all the time.

Are you new? Oh, yeah, we live in the house behind it and that's how friendships happen in towns. I own this joint. Yeah, in towns where people insist on talking to each other for no reason. Did you pay your garbage dues this week?

You better. It's on the commission. You better because Jerry's, he's pretty strict about that landfill shit. I'm not going to lie here. He's not going to let you dump. You're going to have it all sitting in your yard, I'll tell you what. So now she, Rosa, she started working at the grocery store as well to pick up a few extra bucks in February of 1979.

So that's even more kind of they're intertwined you know she needs a job they're having some financial difficulties and there's not a ton of work around here so she works for them so yeah they were like welcome work for us a shift you know take that it'll be nice for us to have a night off and you can do that whatever nice uh nice deal here so uh rosa starts to become very good friends with cecilia The ladies really pair up and Rosa starts to confide in Cecilia about, you know, everything and her troubles and her past and her marriage. And you get two ladies together. No offense, ladies, but you tend to like men when they get together. It's a different thing when men not that all women talk about their lives, but women tend to be honest and open with their friends about their lives because they're nice to each other.

They're just nicer. So they think that their friends actually care, and then their friends actually act like they care. And they try to help, and then they listen to each other. Whereas men, we don't do that. The way dudes work when they hang out, it's like a one-up of like, I did this once. Oh, yeah, i did this once oh yeah i did this one yeah i went and rode in dirt bike down the down a yeah a mountain last week no kidding i rode it up the mountain and women will be like he's an asshole he does this the other one's like

oh mine's an asshole he does this yeah they like one up each other the other direction or they commiserate downward where they they one up each other down which is yeah it's down or up well men do the same thing with that but it it's down or up well men do the same thing with that but it's not about their lives yeah men do it about different things men will men will talk just as much about something that means nothing you know we'll talk about get together and literally talk about stupid sports shit for an hour whereas women would be deep into their conversation about their lives maybe you know how mad they are they're capable of doing that we'll put it that way not that they do every time we're not real capable of expressing our it's a bad it's a lesson in humility i think we're bad at it yeah it's not

good no we probably do better if we would explain shit to each other we don't because we're afraid of the reaction yeah but that's why they go and bitch about us because yeah we don't ever talk that's the thing so it's a vicious circle yeah and that's the point that's what they're bitching about the whole time that's what the women are saying right the whole time is they're not listening while we're off not listening so sorry about that i'm not gonna tell you certain things are it's just we try yeah you know it's not to make excuses it's just i think our brains might work wrongly or differently or in a different way i'm not sure so that works that i like yeah see a newborn baby and have a man and a woman

standing next to each other and watch the different reactions a guy's reaction you might as well put out like i don't know tools to like grill barbecue tools like oh that's a nice brush there that's the way we look at it look at that a baby i'm not responsible for that thing am i unless he likes your fucking festivals in arkansas and women are like oh my god yeah it's so cute the same they have the same reaction if he likes that festival yeah that's exactly then you go oh boy what's going on here are you so excited about this baby shit is creepy so they uh become close friends rosa and cecilia confiding in each other and everything like that especially uh rosa really confides in uh cecilia a lot and not only do they become very good friends they also become sexually intimate as well the ladies the ladies yeah

rose and cecilia start a marmaduke grocery store lesbian love affair which is fucking amazing hell yeah amazing by the way this is awesome in the spirit of the great general marmaduke yeah he's you know we need to have some same-sex action here so uh yeah they the ladies the ladies become sexually intimate under the men are not aware of this oblivious to the dudes right oblivious to no idea the dudes are oblivious to this happening yeah they're like oh yeah the girl i don't know they're hanging out doing something the guys are excited right they're like yeah they went away now we can talk about sports and shit meanwhile they're fucking so we're dumb just shows you how stupid we are like oh we got rid of the ladies for the whole night now we can drink five beers while they

fuck each other and that's that's and we're high-fiving about it yeah idiots fucking dummies we're not smart you think there was ever a moment in there where the girls were like that they would love to watch this oh yeah i'm sure like we're not gonna let them but they would certainly enjoy it a lot. Oh, boy. If I had a camera, we could film it and then not show it to them, but it's 1979. And we could probably pay our own bills. Maybe. And leave these fucking idiots. Well, it actually turns into a little bit of a different thing.

Cecilia, well, Jesus, this is so weird. I don't even know. You don't expect this coming out of a Marmaduke Arkansas grocery store. Not the same sex thing. That's fine. Yeah. But more of this part where Cecilia has an idea now. She says, this is what I want to do.

Okay. I would like to. And this is with Jerry's approval. Jerry's involved, too. Her husband. Cecilia says, this is what we're going to do. Okay. Rosa, check this out. Yeah. Jerry's's on board so don't worry about it um you know you're gonna

have to talk to carl that's your thing he's your husband but my husband's on board what we're gonna do is let's start a prostitution ring out of the grocery store no oh yeah stop that let's start a prostitution ring out of the grocery store you know we well i'd like to set up a business is what she tells rosa and uh the thing why she asked rosa is because carl and rosa used to be in the prostitution business rosa apparently long time ago was a prostitute and carl was her pimp oh my god that's apparently how that's how this that's how they got together apparently or they were going out and he was kind of doing it on the side because they need a money for whatever who the fuck knows how it came to be i don't know if he walked up in

like a velvet outfit with a feather sticking out of his hat going yo bitch get over i don't know if that what is happening or if it was more like hey we need to pay the rent. If you fuck Cooter, he'll give us $100 for the rent. I'm not sure. Cooter offered us an indecent proposal. I think we should take it. I'm just saying. So I don't fucking know, man. So, by the way, this story gets absolutely wacky.

This is not one to turn off before it's absolutely over. And if we have time, we're going to do a little cherry on top of a quick story at the end. That's absolutely nuts. But yeah. All right. So prostitution ring. You know, you guys know stuff. So we'll do that.

We'll set it up out of the grocery store. Well, we need prostitutes. Well, Rosa, you do it. You just be the prostitute. That's OK. Right. You've done it before. Who do we know?

Rosa, do you know anybody that has experience in the pussy sales do you know anybody we're looking for somebody who's got no no not as like a broker actually going out in a field in the field is what we're looking for somebody field work field work can really use somebody like that if you know them it's fucking bonkers so that's so basically what they said is cecilia had sex with rosa and had a little affair with her and then said to her husband let's turn her out right which is essentially what they did which is fucking crazy because they know they have uh the rolsons know the leips have money problems and that's why rosa's working at the grocery store and all this type of shit so they're like yeah dude we could totally pimp out rosa which is

just a weird thing to do with your friends i don't know maybe women aren't nicer than men i'm just gonna say cecilia is an interesting cat at least a smidge on the mean side it's odd um what about you cecilia now imagine well imagine now rosa's got to go home and go hey carl yeah um you know i know i made sloppy joes it it's going to be great it'll be ready in a minute quick question how would you feel like i've been wanting to go back into the workforce well you you work at the grocery store don't you just work on take an extra shift over there well i've been thinking of expanding uh there's a new business popping up and i'm going to get into the ground floor of it really i'm right on my knees on the ground floor. It's going to be wonderful.

I think she did it that way with like a sales pitch, or she went in and just went, Carl, I fucked Cecilia, and it gets worse. I fucked Cecilia, and that's not the bad part. That's not a good thing. I fucked Cecilia, and now you're about to really be mad hey carl good news bad news first i fuck cecilia now the good news or now the bad now bad news jesus christ so yeah that's cheese on you with a woman she is my boss now for the bad news yeah here we go enjoy not a really crush your heart so rosa comes back a few days later

very upset because it's like you know if you like go home and you're like you know anybody whether you're a married person because i mean let's face it here everybody's got their own freedom but you also confer with your spouse and if they like be like i'm totally uncomfortable with something most people are like i'm totally uncomfortable with something most people are like i'm gonna fucking not do it i guess i'll i'll humor this person i'm gonna be with them for the rest of my fucking life i suppose let's let's have less things that we can bring up later on in fights you know what i mean let's just keep it at that yeah one of those things so uh rosa comes in and just imagine her just being like yeah um she comes out and she says uh carl doesn't want me to

be a prostitute i'm sorry i can't do it so carl said no that's basically what it is like i went home and i talked to him and i'm on board i mean i'm on board it was okay but you know he's a little uncomfortable with it so i'm just gonna humor him yeah i'm not gonna do it you know what i mean i just you know how it is i don't need to get fucked for money by fucking hillbillies drooling tobacco juice on me and just unbuttoning my overalls and pulling them down. That's all. Just going to undo the straps and put them on down. So Carl doesn't want her to be a prostitute.

So Jesus Christ, this isn't right. So Cecilia, you'd think she would drop it right there. you'd think she would drop it right there well my our friends don't our friends don't want me to let to pimp out their wife you know the wife of this couple so maybe we should just we'll go back to just playing fucking yahtzee and shit on the weekends instead of trying to run a prostitution business but over time over the next couple months she really wants to start up that prostitution business and so does jerry they're really into it they're like man we could just we could just sell rosa i mean fuck man life is going to be a lot easier like so what's what's what's the roadblock here let's be honest yeah i want to i

want to sell women you want to sell women rosa is willing to be sold to be a sold woman i mean so she's at least willing to i don't know if she wants to but she's gonna let us um so i mean that's good our only obstacle here is carl yeah what the fuck is carl's problem you fucking stiff man so they're upset in the mud yeah they're like we need to you know what we'll do let's let's get rid of carl yeah what the fuck do we need carl around here i don't want to have a chat with him no i mean right why have a chat he's he's pretty it's weird usually if you if a man doesn't want even want to have a chat with him? No. I mean, right. Why have a chat? He's pretty... It's weird. Usually, if a man doesn't want his wife to be a prostitute, it's hard to talk him out

of it. It's a tough sales pitch. Yeah. You know? It's not rust protection on a new car or something. It's a tough sales pitch. No, no, no. Your wife will just be getting...

No, she'll just be getting hammered by everybody out at the truck stop. It's no problem. Yeah, we're going to take her out there. She'll come home. Yeah, it's just by the railroad station. The freight guys, they'll just jump all up and down on her for $20. It's going to be great. No.

Fuck no. Jesus H. Christ, what are we talking about here? So he's objecting. He's being a huge stick in the mud here. So they say, okay, let's kill Carl. Oh, boy. What do you know, he's objecting. He's being a huge stick in the mud here. So they say, okay, let's, let's kill Carl. Oh boy. What do you say everybody? So, I mean, Cecilia is on board.

She is. Jerry's super on board. He's like, let's fucking, let's all kill him. Hell yeah. And Rose is like, all right. She's just like the shoulder shrug. All right. Whatever.

That's what's gotta happen. I guess we're killing my husband. So hillbillies can fuck me for money. Sure. I mean, that's fine with me. yes we're killing my husband so hillbillies can fuck me for money sure i mean that's fine with me wow she's cool with this not only is she cool with this she is willing to be an active participant in this it's not just like i'll look the other way while you guys kill carl cool what do i need from me how can i help you kill carl so cecilia on several occasions over in the from february 1979 on here, before April, obviously,

Cecilia gives Rosa rat poison to give Carl. Oh, boy. Just poison him. Nobody will care. Look at him. Who cares? Do it a lot. Do it a bunch.

Now, Rosa apparently several times. Later on, she'll only claim she did it once. But even once is enough. It's an attempt. If you try to poison someone with rat poison on their food, really any amount of times, I feel like you're on board with a pretty sinister plan. So, yeah, she gives Carl rat poison several times. He survives this. He's like fucking Rasputin over here.

This guy is he's strong. Apparently, apparently, Carl has a strong constitution. You can't kill this guy or she didn't give him enough. I don't know how you I don't know how much poison to give a person is what I'm getting out. I would imagine it would be a lot, especially. I mean, yeah, you're a rat. Right.

You know, a rat's a little. This was a pound. Right. I mean, it's a little what is it a pound right i mean it's a at best it's a big rat i would think a pound so right yeah that's a giant it's a fucking like yeah that's like the one you saw in dc that's a monster that one asked you for a cigarette which was he turned he was like hey buddy you got a smoke i was like wow i turned around and said what are you scared of pussy asked you for a cigarette and five bucks and you gave it to him that was the thing you were like here dude and you were shaking hands shaking here you go said it just ate a cat dude that is fucking rats enormous are crazy they're the only thing

crazier though are than that or like when you're in nashville or something and it's not rats it's like a raccoon the size of my dog like holy shit yeah or possum that looks like a giant rat which is frightening that could be what it was i don't it it was fucking horrifying are there possums in the city in dc gotta be i mean around i mean there's nothing but woods and swamps and shit outside of it so i guess they could wander in i guarantee they're there he got lost in an alley and shit yeah right by a freeway or something yeah that's scary so april 20th 1979 yeah comes along here and at this moment uh carl changes his life insurance policy really uh he had a five thousand dollar insurance policy life insurance which is barely i guess in 79 will

pay for your funeral i guess but outside of that of that, not much, even in 79. And now he ups it now to $16,500. Three times it. Three times the money. So that's, I mean, ooh, boy. In Marmaduke, you can buy two acres of property, basically, with the shit trailers on them there for that. So it's not bad. Imagine what you could buy in 79 for it.

Probably half the fucking town. of that so it's not bad imagine when she could buy in 79 for it probably half the fucking town so rosa tells now you know rose is a participant and an active participant because if she wasn't she would not tell the rolsons who want him super dead about this because then that's just more motivation to kill him she told him she tells the rolsons he changed the thing and blah blah blah and all of this so out of of this, they make a deal. Well, now they got more life insurance. So the Rolstons say, well, tell you what. Before, I was just giving you poison.

You're going to kill your husband. This is what we'll do. Now that there's more money involved and everything's kind of a little more spread out. We were going to split five grand before. Well, no, no. That was just going to be yours. Our money was going to come on the back end when we pimp you out out to truckers that's how that was going to work yeah that's that's we take the five grand out of your backside so instead they say here's what we'll do now they

have more cash we'll just kill jerry you gotta help or we'll just kill carl you gotta help obviously and shit but we'll well yeah we'll participate in and everything and then you give us five grand out of your 15 at 16 500 okay so give us five grand we'll take in it and everything, and then you give us $5,000 out of your $16,500. So give us $5,000. We'll take care of them. And so now they're thinking they're going to get $5,000 and Rosa to sell to the local folk. And a new career.

And a new career. She literally kept calling it a business. Cecilia kept saying, look, we need to start this business. And it's like, that's not a business. You're just selling a woman. There's no model at all. We don't like the projections for this month. There's no board meeting.

It's not a business. We're more of a business than that. You don't have overhead. You're just pushing a young girl into gross people's arms. Did they raise our insurance again? No. That's it. Start calling around.

I am not having this. Jesus Christ. The fucking government up my ass for taxes. This is ridiculous. We got to get our dividends. Yeah, dividends out to the shareholders. For Christ's sake, they're never going to leave me alone. This is a fucking nightmare.

Dividends. Oh, my God. Guy sitting with one of those green visors on with like an adding machine now good this is ridiculous somebody needs to start fucking and sucking more or better than they are now because this business is not fucking feasible it's not gonna work the original combo meal the original right there the half and half so the second and fucking the old half and half i love that on on any of those hooker documentaries when they're just like, I got half and half for $30. I'm like, half and half?

You're really reducing it to that? Come on, man. Just put it all over. A half and half. It just sounds so bad. It sounds like you ordered fast food. Give me a half and half. It's like a half chicken sandwich, half burger.

Like, no, I don't want that. What the fuck am I doing? So anyway, April 27th, 1979 comes around. This is a big night. Yeah. Big night for the Rolson's and the Leipz. This is a Friday night. Obviously a big night in Marmaduke.

Right. Now, Cecilia tells Rosa that she and her husband, Cecilia and Jerry, are going to visit the Leipz that night. They're going to come over and hang out. And Cecilia tells Rosa, quote, tonight is the night. Oh, boy. That's all she says. Tonight is the night. So, Rosa's like, ooh, I wonder what that means.

Who am I going to have to fuck tonight? Right. So, anyway, the rolsen's do visit the lipes they come over uh cecilia uh her stepchildren who jerry's other kids because he's got another kid i just don't know how old they are and rosa went to uh the power went to paragold which is a town just south of here and ate food so they go out uh this is you know just the ladies and the kids go out, basically, is how this works. They eat.

I don't know if they entered the children in a beauty contest while they were out or what, but what happened there. Then Rose, Cecilia, and the children drove around for a while aimlessly and then sat in front of a furniture store for about an hour. Just a closed furniture store. They just sat in front of it in the car for an hour okay just a closed furniture store they just sat in front of it in the car for an hour with the kids just whoa this and this is pre-ipads or game boys or anything just kids yeah you just had what we told fucking woolly willy that was the best you could do for a kid back then got a ball and a cup yeah you're not don't say you're tired of that that's a sketch yet you little bastard or something. Shake it, Brandon. Fuck, let's go.

Shake it and do it again. You didn't break it already, did you? Jesus Christ. You got it all over the car. Oh, man. It's a mess now. So they sit in front of a furniture store, which sounds very exciting. Honestly, that sounds wonderful.

After that, the children were taken home to where they live, because they don't live with the Rolsons. And Rosa and Cecilia drive to Carl and Rosa's house behind the grocery store there. Now, Cecilia sees that Carl's car is not there, the Leipz automobile. And she said, quote, I've got to make a run. Okay, they pull up. She sees the car isn't there. And then she tells Rosa, I got to make a run. And she and Rosa drive around for a while. More aimless driving.

Just driving around. And then we're talking out into the, like, not just around town, like up and down Main Street. Get out beyond the streetlights. Yeah, they're out all just driving out in the sticks, which is a weird thing to do on a Friday night for no reason. And they do that until they're on a rural stretch of road right outside of town, and Cecilia sees a flashlight and stops. She sees a flashlight on the side of the road and stops,

and the flashlight bounces closer and closer, and it's Jerry. Wow. It's her husband Jerry and he hops in the car. They say if you've been married long enough you can just find your ex. You sense people.

I mean your spouse. Your spouse. Yeah, you can find them. You sense them. I was with my grandfather in the grocery store. We were just walking. My grandmother got separated from us.

I was like six years old, seven years old and my grandfather goes, turn down this next aisle. We turned down. My grandmother's there. I'm like, how did you know that? Well, he also probably knows where she wanders to in the stores but he was like just turn here she's right there yeah and then she was there i was like how did you do that

she's reading the romance novels don't worry about it for 40 years jimmy that's why yeah and that's that's why apparently what happened here that's what's going on here out in the middle of the woods you can find that fucking flashlight in the sky right and you're there out there waving down ufos again let's just go out let's go pick him up god damn it jesus christ so jerry rolson gets in the car very excited too he's all he's a titter yeah he's going crazy here and they said what's up and he said all right just killed carl all right just killed i shot the shit out of him you don't even understand describes he goes i shot the fuck out of car. Just shot him up all good. Fucking, you know, threw him on the side of the road.

He's full of holes. They're like, are you sure he's dead? He's like, oh, I shot him a whole bunch of times. He's fine. He's fucking dead. He's real dead. Like, I'm talking like he got like 11 bullet holes in him. It's crazy.

Like, that's the kind of overkill we have. Rosa, your husband's dead. And now here's the bad news. Yeah. Now we're going to take you to a truck stop no and this business starts on to the truck stop good news bad news good news is your husband's dead right okay let's go to the truck stop so yeah it describes the whole thing and they're like okay yeah good deal all right that's fine so then rosa j, and Cecilia, the three amigos here,

they go dispose of the gun and the gloves and the sneakers that Jerry was wearing and all this shit. They do a full murder dismount, basically. They actually have a dismount, at least. And then after taking Jerry home to go wash himself off and get the blood off of him

and all that sort of thing, Cecilia and Rosa went off together to get rid of the shells that were left in the gun. home to go wash himself off and get the blood off of him and all that sort of thing cecilia and rosa went off together to get rid of the shells that were left in the gun okay so get rid of all that yeah there we go beautiful done perfect crime right carl's gone rosa's gonna be out there sucking dick for the team by morning time poor thing poor rose and she's she's like yeah this is better than stocking your bullshit tomatoes all that shit's not fresh anyway it's none of it's fresh let's read the reviews even if i give you five grand i get 11.5 to you know to not have to work at the grocery store and uh you know a little thing

on the side here yeah so uh yeah she helps to dispose of the shells. Now, afterwards, Rosa is told by Cecilia what to do. She says, look, this is what you do now. You sit up all night, leave your lights on. You sit up all night waiting for Carl to come home. That's what you're going to do. And then the next morning, you're going to call the cops. You're going to call the Marmaduke City Marshal, who's a real person. Yeah.

And you're going to swear to God you're going to come over. He's a human cartoon. It's like Roger Rabbit. There's just animated people here. So it's a real guy who's got a real authority. You're going to call him in the morning and you're going to go, I've been up all night waiting for my husband. He went out.

I don't know where he is. Oh, my God, he's gone. He's gone. Where could he possibly be? Oh, no. Right. That's what you're going to do. So Rosa says, all right, that's the plan.

And that's it. I don't know if there's any dick sucking in the middle of it or what. So the next morning, the 28th, that's when the turkey hunters find Carl's body on the side of the road. The next day. The next. I mean, like less than 12 hours later, he's found by these turkey hunters, which is pretty remarkable. Honestly, he's not really like turkey hunters, which is pretty remarkable, honestly.

It is. He's not really like deep in the woods or anything. That's the other thing. Jerry could have fucking dragged him 10 feet into the woods, and he would have probably not been found for at least a little bit. He put him on the side of the road. Like, that good enough. Yeah. I mean, we are out in the middle of nowhere.

I didn't put him in the road. I mean, yeah, no one going to run gonna run him over nuns i should be good i mean unless you get a flat headlights ain't gonna hit him no he's fine so they find carl's body full of gunshot wounds uh not great here uh 380 uh bullets are in his body so not 380 380 caliber yeah 380 caliber i don't know if someone's out there going my god talk about overkill he really went to work. Jesus Christ. That's a lot of reloading.

How is there anything left of him? You'd just shred him to Swiss cheese at that point. Oh, my goodness. 380 of them. Three or four of them would look like seven. Yeah. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts.

I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky and part comedy. The stories we cover are well researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied.

Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid.

Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller,

available exclusively on Wondery Plus, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery+, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B.

Lauro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth.

With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. I mean, Jesus. So they find him and they investigate over the course of the next month. And there's really not a lot to investigate in this town.

They don't do much. They don't go a lot. Not like Carl's got business dealings all over the place and anybody could want him dead or he's a you know a drug lord or something right he's just a guy whose wife works at the grocery store he lives behind like there's not a lot going on so they're pretty much like rosa has to know something because they're the only people they know besides the rolsons here So someone's got to know something. So they keep coming back to Rosa. They keep coming back to Rosa, trying to crack her. May 26th, 1979, Rosa finally cracks.

Really? Finally gives it up. She's had enough. She's had enough. As she says, I am done. I'm done with the dicks. I'm done with the people. Yeah.

I'm done with it. She was not long for prostitution world. I can't eat any more Waffle House food. It's from the truck stop. I can't eat any more Waffle House food. It's from the truck stop. I can't do it. And she agrees to not only tell them what happened, the police, that is, the Marmaduke City Marshal. Not only that, but to cooperate with them and to show them where everything is. So she does that.

She goes and shows them where they threw the gun. She shows them where they hid the shells, where they did everything. The cops look for the gun because they threw it like in a ditch with some water and all sorts of shit here. So the cops apparently used a large magnet. They had a big, like a giant magnet, like a big metal detector looking thing with a big magnet, which is like drugged water. It's a big ditch. Okay. There's a little bit of like shitty water not like a lot like if it rained it would be you know pull up pull up and be where uh where things breed right yeah all this shit flying around in the air in arkansas from this place that's where stevie catches frogs

it's yeah yeah because yeah the frogs like what was it? Fish like frogs. Bass loves frogs. It was bass. I'm like, is it bass or fucking? I think it was catfish and bass loves frogs. Catfish and bass. Yeah, catfish was the one I was thinking. I'm like, is that right? No, because it's bass in there, too. So anyway, they use this giant magnet, which seems like a Wile E. Coyote Acme fucking product, basically.

Very clever reason. We got a big Acme box. That's our big magnet. Get it out. We're going to go find this gun. So they get this giant magnet. The box is metal. I can't get it out.

Just drag the box. Drag the whole goddamn thing. We're going to use it up, boy, because that thing was expensive. That's half the department's budget right there. Matter of fact, I'm sorry. Deputy Johnson, you're fired. We have to let you go. This magnet's going to take your place now.

Right. It's going to take the place of a deputy looking around bush we'll just wave a magnet over and see if anything pops up so they use this giant magnet over this ditch and they fucking come up with a 380 pistol wow they actually come up with a goddamn 380 pistol out of the whole thing it's a 380 beretta and uh they they find this and they they test it and it's apparently the same gun that was used on Carl. So all that matches up. It was in a ditch east of Paragold, which is the other town here, and near the St. Francis River. So they also had divers going in the river, too.

But then they said, let's wave this magnet over. And that ended up working, which is hilarious. It finally worked. We've been using this magnet. It worked? What? Since the 40s. Right.

Since, I mean, the government made it for the war. Right. Never used them. Sold them to us little police departments. It ain't worked since then. Well, we did get a Vietnam veteran sticking. He got a plate in his head. That poor buddy, man.

I tell you what, that was an ugly day. And he's never going to be all right. But you know what? Things happen. It's worth it to find this gun. He's still dead and attached to the magnet. We're just going to drag it anyway. With the box.

Get the box. With all that deputy that died. Bring the box and Deputy Johnson with them. Just drag it all down the river. Bring dead Deputy Johnson along with the magnet. There's a gun stuck to it that they can't get off. Now we've got a gun, too. It just collects things on there people's keys are on there there's like a yugo from looking like this thing's just collecting it's got an amc pacer under it you're like what is

happening this is gonna bring the whole damn powerful we're gonna have to drive this thing into the courtroom now with the pacer it's. It's powerful. You know what? It's better. It was hard to drag this magnet with that big box and Deputy Johnson's feet dragging. Now we just drive the pacer. Now it's a vehicle. Now it's beautiful. It's a fucking four-wheeled magnet at this point. So they find this gun, and they do a little work on this gun, because they go, yeah, that's fine that this is the murder weapon, but we need some evidence.

Where did this gun come from? Where did we get this gun? They trace it back to an individual. Oh, it's got numbers on it. Yeah, these people aren't like smart gangsters. They're fucking rural Arkansas grocery store owners that maybe want to sell their friend to men, which is they're not the most sophisticated people here. Who just concocted a murder plot.

Yeah, no problem. So this is a guy the gun is traced back to a man named bill bushong who is a pepsi route man he drives a route for pepsi the pepsi guy he's the pepsi guy big pepsi truck hey pepsi guy that's where they got the gun the hand cart yeah that guy he ends up saying that yes because they go to him and they go yeah there's this gun traced back to you used in a murder he's like oh let me tell you everything i know about that because i didn't kill anybody i bought that once upon a time i sold it that's what he says he says that he gave the beretta to cecilia in exchange for an old car yeah yeah i thought you were gonna say in exchange for

fucking rose in exchange for some terrible things Rosa had to do. I was panicked right there. From everything we know, we don't think that Rosa ever actually participated in prostitution. She wasn't ever forced into it by these people or anything like that. That's from everything we know. We don't know if maybe here and there or whatever something happened, but it never got off the ground as a full-fledged business. But to earn the murder weapon through prostitution would be bad. Yeah, no, this is an exchange for an old car, which is a little better of an up and up transaction here. This was after she had apparently repeatedly over and over again, because he's the Pepsi guy who comes into the grocery store at the Pepsi, asked him to get her a gun for her protection.

That's how small of a town this is. You're like, I need to get something illegal. I don't know anybody. I guess I'll ask the Pepsi guy. He comes in once a week like you have no one else to ask jesus christ and it's arkansas you that's a lot of people got guns i mean a gun shouldn't be too hard to find in arkansas i don't think but apparently yeah he she wanted a gun uh he also says that cecilia indicated to the pepsi here, Bushong, that she needed the gun to do something. And as a matter of fact, would maybe you want to kill Carl Leip?

What? And he's like, fuck no. I'll trade you a gun for a car. I'm not going to kill some guy I don't know who doesn't want his wife to suck dick for money. That seems reasonable to me. She tried to subcontract it out. She tried to, was like no i'm good and he's like what can i she's like well can i get the gun at least he's like all right that's cool but i don't want to kill him or anything like that you got a car in exchange yeah but she said i definitely want him

dead he's interfering with this whole thing and tells him about the tells this guy me jerry and rose are trying to start this prostitution business and he even says she used the word business over and over we're trying to start this prostitution business and he even says she used the word business over and over we're trying to start this prostitution business and she's complaining like carl's being very unreasonable that's what's hilarious about it she's like and he won't let her do it like right what the fuck man there's zero startup costs it's not even a lose-lose situation it's just all win that's what i'm saying it's all profit it's all profit so yeah so she's complaining to the pepsi guy while he's standing there with his hand cart a dumb look on his face

and what the fuck is happening i gotta stock the mountain dew now can i can we not do we do this now what the fuck man there's a man with no teeth by the cooler i need to give it to him now he says bill bushong he says cecilia told him on the wednesday after carl was killed and found that next wednesday the beginning of may that uh she said oh boy thanks for that gun by the way my work great jerry killed the shit out of carl so thumbs up on that one you were right shoot strike five star yelp review on your weapons business on your weapons business right that you have here five stars so uh he was like okay who does that who tells the pepsi guy i don't know she's just so bored this is this is the problem with talking to too many people and being friends with all these people and knowing everyone in a small town

so bujong also said that uh before the before this is all going on she says before the police ended up arresting everybody and uh cecilia went to bill and said you're not going to tell on us right because cops are asking questions you'll lie for us right won't you please all right and he's like well i mean i guess sure and she's like yeah you'll lie for us though just make sure you tell the cops that i didn't tell you about the murder and the process. You know, things you don't think they'll be interested in. Killings, prostitution, things like that. Cops hate that stuff.

They're not interested in it at all. So there is other evidence, apparently, that Cecilia had been looking for a gun and was also telling other people about the prostitution ring. She was getting a buzz going around town about this, you know, because it's a business coming up. So you got was getting a buzz going around town right about this you know because it's a business coming up so you got to get a buzz going right so she gets a little buzz going about this prostitution business and she's like i'm telling you guys i'm gonna fly her this town yeah social media blitz getting it big time get an influence get an influencer or two in there this is gonna be good fucking shit so uh yeah he does that a guy named mark reed testifies that cecilia asked him to perjure himself laying on later on because he's another guy that cecilia went to for a gun right and uh she she said oh yeah by the way you'll lie in court right for me so he tells the cops she's

trying to get me to lie in court uh she to say that she didn't ask for a gun and uh and all that sort of thing and by the way both of these men bill bushong and mark reed also said yeah we also had affairs with cecilia at the same time oh boy so cecilia is having affairs with everybody literally the pepsi guy where she meets some other dude that she's just some dirtbag that she's looking for a gun for and she's telling them about prostitution and murders and all this shit she's just very open she's a very open person which is that can be nice let me tell you all about my plans that are illegal and also fuck me also i was gonna say also who wants to get fucking just the pepsi guy mark reed rosa whoever comes in contact with her that's like it's like a special like a tuesday special yeah if you spend

30 bucks in groceries cecilia will bang you behind the cooler or something i don't know what's going on here it must be something uh with her infatuation with people that you talk real nice how do you fuck yeah it's fucking it's bizarre though that she's just like she's just a strange for a small town in 79 i don't care how many people you fuck but it's just a weird thing to be married and also having an affair with a woman and also trying to set up a prostitution ring and also fucking the pepsi guy while you try to get him to not only kill for you but maybe just get you a gun and then another guy you're fucking and trying to get a gun from the whole thing is just weird it's very manipulative so it is interesting may 27th is the day after rosa decides to spill the beans uh they already have

bushong they have bill's testimony they have mark reed saying oh yeah she wanted a gun told me all about this little shit they have rosa now now they're like let's go talk to those rolsons again and have a little chat with them so uh jerry says that he and cecilia they did go to the life home that night that did happen you know that friday night but that he left with cecilia and rosa he said the three of us took off he said i last saw uh my wife and rosa together about 9 30 p.m when they took me home and i went into bed yeah i don't know shit about shit i don't know you know what you're talking about this sounds far-fetched you're crazy uh he says that his wife because they're like well what about

a prostitution ring and he's like okay this is one of those things when a cop is asking about a murder you have to give up a small thing right show you're not trying to lie he's like no no yeah we prostitution ring that actually did happen she did she we talked about it and we you know but it was it was more just theoretical and uh but that doesn't mean we killed anybody obviously i mean just because we have a prostitution ring just because we're willing But it was more just theoretical. But that doesn't mean we killed anybody, obviously. I mean, just because we have a prostitution ring, just because we're willing to pimp out our friend doesn't mean that we're heartless or anything. You know how that is. So Cecilia just said, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

I don't know anything. I don't know shit. I don't know anything about prostitution. I didn't fuck anybody. I'm just a nice lady who owns a small town grocery store right i don't know shit uh she did admit though that bushong gave her a gun after she asked him for it several times but she says fine i did get a gun but it wasn't for me it was for rosa right rosa said she wanted the gun yeah she said she did um you know she needed it she wanted it bad figured i'd

give it to her right um you know so she did she said she wanted it bad. Figured I'd give it to her. You know, so she did. She said she did. She also said, though, that, you know, Bushong took an old car. Same thing that Bushong said in exchange for the gun. But she just did it for Rosa. That's it. Nothing else.

She also said that three occasions where she had talked to police officers, she did lie to them about the gun because she said that wasn't true but now that they have everybody's testimony everybody's you know statements and all this shit she's like okay fine i got a gun for rosa yeah but that's all i'll admit um she denied any knowledge of a gun at first though and denied that she ever asked for it or anybody or anything and then finally she also says yes uh she did talk to her husband about a prostitution ring she also was involving bushong who was going to her husband about a prostitution ring. She also was involving Bushong, who was going to be involved in this prostitution ring somehow as well. You got to get the Pepsi guy into it. I mean, it's helpful. He's kind of like a taste of a new generation.

That's what I mean. He's kind of like the pope of the town, too. Like they, you know, hey, you got to you got to clear it with the Pepsi guy. You know, he's like the mob boss of the town. Make sure the Pepsi guy is OK with it here. So the Rolston's are arrested. They're like they're like oh yeah you're full of shit obviously why don't you come on into the jail here they're arrested uh they let them go from that interview and then they're uh the next day they're driving home and they're pulled over and arrested on their way home so that's may 27th 1979 1979. May 28th, 1979. They haven't been formally charged yet.

I don't know how the fuck this works, but they haven't been formally charged yet, but they're released on $30,000 bond. How do you do that? I don't know how you do that without a charge. I don't know how they get a bond hearing without a charge. And it's the next day. Normally, they have a few days to charge you and get you a hearing so they'll they'd wait their time and then you'd get a thing after that this is immediately they're both sprung okay so they're absolutely sprung here so now february 8th 1980 is when their trial begins jerry and cecilia have a joint trial

together together trial yes absolutely uh they have a joint trial rosa is the star witness against them she is the victim here she's you know playing the well i mean she's an accomplice slash victim is what she's kind of playing up here but february 8th 1980 so from may 79 to february 8th jerry and cecilia get to stay out of jail while preparing their defense which is helpful i mean that's a big deal so So the defense essentially maintains that Rosa killed her husband or someone else. I mean, it could have been anybody. Rosa, it was Rosa or Rosa had somebody else do it, but it's not our fucking business. We don't know shit about it.

We were in a prostitution. I don't know what you're talking about. So they are being Jesus. Jesus. No, no. We just sell women. What are we talking about? I'm not a scumbag or something here.

I'm not having like, you know, kiddie beauty contests at Independence Day fucking parade or anything. She's legal. She's legal. I'll tell you what. So the defense also emphasizes the evidence that Carl Leip's life insurance was increased two weeks before the murder. They're like, who benefits from that but the wife? I mean, Jesus Christ. There's also evidence that the Leipips intended to buy the grocery store they introduced

that rosa ends up testifying that the rolsons were having financial problems and that she and carl offered to buy the store which is strange because it was the other way they were the role so the leips had financial problems that's why rosa was working in the grocery store and willing to sell herself. So it's a very strange thing. The Rolsons apparently were asking $8,000 for the grocery store. Seems like a steal. I'll fucking buy a grocery store. Get some credit cards out.

It's a loose term of grocery. You know what I mean? That's what I mean. It's like a bodega. But you can sell pussy out of it. I mean, you can sell... It seems like the cigarettes behind the counter are worth more than eight grand. That's what I mean.

There can't be that much merchandise. Although, it's kind of like on the wire. Oh, boy. Yeah. When... Was it Fat Face Andre, I believe? He had the bodega where he was selling drugs out of the bodega, obviously. had the bodega where he was selling his he's selling drugs out of the bodega obviously and uh marlo forces him to say that omar shot a delivery person in the store when it was really chris and

snoop so that ended up happening and it's a whole long story but she probably did this she had well he had to go out he had to run away because marlo wanted or omar was after him uh for telling on him with the cops so he goes to prop joe and and sells everything in the grocery store for like three thousand dollars sells him the store and everything in it for like for like three grand because he had to run so anyway this is the same situation they're in trouble so maybe they're in trouble so they're asking eight thousand dollars the lipes gave them a down payment of 500 bucks so you get a down payment on a whole store for 500 bucks now the state on the other hand the

prosecution their theory is that cecilia masterminded the murder she's the she's the kingpin here she put it together she wanted the prostitution ring she's the puppet master making everybody do her bidding that's the prosecution's stance on this whole thing and they give evidence that cecilia is a domineering person that she's a manipulative person that she lies to people to get them to do things for that she's having five affairs that she's setting up prostitution rings she's the one asking for guns and all that sort of thing so they're kind of they're making it like it's all her and she just was like you know jerry go shoot that guy on the road and he did it and hop back in the car that's how that's the

thing here what they're trying to do uh rosa uh she ends up testifying that she was afraid of cecilia because cecilia had threatened the safety of her child because uh rosa said she was going to tell carl that that rosa and cecilia were having a sexual relationship so to keep that under wraps rosa says cecilia threatened to kill her child if you tell carl that we're fucking i'm gonna kill your kid which is a very extreme thing to do but based on cecilia's track record here it doesn't seem out of character it's hard to believe and doesn't seem out of character at the same time so it's really a weird who knows so they do argue here the the rols's will argue that rosa was improperly

allowed to testify that jerry rolsen told her quote that was the hardest son of a bitch to kill that he had ever that i'd ever killed so how many you killed i don't know what jerry's been doing but he said he that's what they said that he when he got in the car that's what he said like he turned the flashlight off he's out of breath from the ring. He picks somebody up. He goes, Jesus, that was the hardest son of a bitch to kill I ever killed. I don't know if he means that includes deer or elk or something, but possum. Turkeys.

Turkeys. I'm not sure. And he also had, she said on the stand quote, he told me that he killed Carl. So, yeah, the objection from the defense was they're saying it was hearsay but uh it's among many exceptions to the hearsay rule it's a statement made by a co-conspirator but they're gonna really stick the rolsen's are gonna really put their feather in the that that was hearsay you can't say that can't say but you can say what a co-conspirator told you that's why they have co-conspirators testify against you if you couldn't do that

there'd be no point to it he told me nope you can't say that okay well then who the fuck why am i here why am i here what are we talking about unless you're gonna get him to admit it i don't know what we're talking about here so there's a problem though here with the with the evidence and of the sheriff's department guy the state used apparently a former deputy sheriff's testimony later on. Basically, the guy who handled the evidence in the sheriff's department was unavailable, as they put it, unavailable to testify. So another deputy sheriff who also examined the crime scene and the former deputy's testimony. Basically, he did the testimony based on his scene and the other guy's notes yeah because it's it's all just like you know the it was found here this far from the road it's measurements and

shit like that it's not like uh it's all in the report basically you don't have to you don't have to be the lead guy to see the report so anyway they put him out there uh to do the just to do the the technical shit of medical stuff and i guess the sheriff's office learned five days before the trial that their witness had left the state and was in Texas. Oh, no. That's the evidence guy. Apparently, according to the court documents, and it sucks for this poor bastard that this is in the court documents, the guy who worked for the sheriff's department and his wife had separated, and the guy just snapped and fucking took off. He's just like, I'm getting the fuck out of here. Is that jetted five days before the trial the shit about any of this yeah so they had

to scramble and get somebody else to get up there and put a fucking tie on and look like a respectable guy who can tell us how far away the body was from the road and how many gunshot wounds there were and shit like that yeah his marriage almost ruined this yeah that's what it was so they the sheriff's office had to say they made a strong effort to locate and produce him, but they couldn't find him. So they said they made a good faith effort to do it. And then the court allowed the testimony of the other deputy because they said, it's not like this guy, not like they didn't try to find him.

They're not hiding him. He's having a tough time right now. He's really going through it. He's got a little bit of a problem. He ran away to Midland, Texas. He just snapped. He's really pissed. He's pissed. through it. He's got a little bit of a problem. He ran away to Midland, Texas. He just snapped. He's really pissed. He's pissed.

That's pissed. So the defense counsel here attempts to cross-examine Rosa, reading from a prior statement she had made to a polygraph operator. Because at first, when she said that, they usually will polygraph people just to eliminate suspects kind of thing. One of those deals. So they polygraphed her just to see just to eliminate suspects kind of thing one of those deals so they polygraphed her just to see if she was telling the truth obviously it's not admissible in court but they ask her about a statement she made to a polygraph examiner which is not okay that's shaky ground and thin ice so the question was have you minimized your involvement with carl leip's death and her answer had been yes to the polygraph examiner.

So the state objected to this line of questioning because a possible mention of the lie detector test. And so they argued about that for a while because the because that's, you know, to the to the Rolson's,

that's a big deal. She minimized her role. Now she's blaming all of them, but they can't get it like in the actual deal. So the court had a big like in the actual deal so the court had a big like in chambers hearing allowing both sides the opportunity to argue about it trial judge finally decided that the that the line of questioning shouldn't be pursued it's a little

too sensitive and all that sort of thing but the question did come out in open court now uh yeah there was that sort of thing the the defense asked for a mistrial and didn't get it. So the state is allowed to ask Rosa Rosa Leip and Bill Bush on questions that related to Cecilia Rolson's personality as well. The answers suggested she was a dominating person. And that was another thing that the later on, the defense is going to say that that's evidence of character, which can't be introduced unless we introduce evidence of character otherwise it's just facts that's why you don't have you i used to wonder why doesn't every defendant have like everybody they know go up there and say what a great person they are because if you introduce character evidence then they can introduce of the prior acts right so that's a difference so otherwise your prior acts aren't allowed in unless they

have something to do with what's going on very weird here so yeah so they ended up doing that they they tried to finesse it so the answer would come out and say cecilia is a dominating person and all that sort of thing here uh but they said that this evidence doesn't fit into what's usually considered character evidence or whatever it was more like manipulating the murder circumstances yeah that's why they allowed it uh also they said there was substantial evidence there that she supplied the gun and was the key person in the murder and all this sort of thing jerry takes the stand stiff shit stiff shit hi how you doing hi y'all y'all want to fuck my wife for money there's one of her friends or

something for our defense fund yeah come on now he testified i was at home in bed with a headache that night don't know shit wife dropped me off i don't know maybe the girls went out there and did whatever the fuck but i was home headache sleeping you know gunshot i mean i'm sorry did i say that yeah you fire a 380 a whole bunch of times your ears will ring they'll ring i'll tell you what maybe they were out there scissoring so hard they scissored him to death oh man it's it was the hottest threesome in the history of marmaduke and then all of a sudden he just stopped breathing he was like i can't nope they're squeezing my midsection. Unbelievable. They're squeezing my parts.

So the verdict comes down. This trial is over. Verdict comes in. Jury deliberates for three hours. It's not a long time because there's two people, so that takes about an hour to fill out the paperwork for one. So that's not a lot of deliberation. Both are said to be guilty of first-degree murder my god yeah got them good no death penalty here on this particular case because of the circumstances but guilty of first degree murder now the next day comes around uh next day they're supposed to be sentenced the sentencing is delayed

on this but only delayed for about a week here they're convicted of first degree murder there they said that the jury it's postponed at the request of the defense lawyers so they can make a case, basically, for mitigation. So February 15th, 1980, a week later, is actually sentencing. They line these two up. It's Jerry and Cecilia, you, sir, and ma'am, together as a couple. This is nice, though. At least they're doing something together.

Couples don't do enough shit together. So this is nice. They are sentenced here to may fuck off life in prison for both of you. Have a good one. Enjoy. With parole, but life. So not wonderful as a husband and wife. Minimum 25 there, probably?

Yeah, I think so. I think because it was a certain amount, and they stack 50 on top of that. It turns into life. No. As a husband and wife. Minimum 25 there, probably. Yeah, I think so. I think because it was a certain amount and they stack 50 on top of that. It turns into life. Okay. Not wonderful. Not a good thing to get sentenced to here. But, but this judge must be the kindest motherfucker in the world because right there that day, he sentences them both to life in prison for first degree murder.

Then in the next breath, he bonds them both to life in prison for first degree murder then in the next breath he bonds them out what they are they are given appeal bonds they can leave the courtroom they're convicted by convicted murderers on the street sentenced to life and murder to life in prison they go yeah we just get a bond right and they fucking let them out wow they let them out of the court on the street you just the fucking in the next breath he literally said life in prison you're a terrible scar on society oh yeah but you can go wander around for a while until your sentencing starts run rosa run on an appeal bond like usually that's it you they take you away and you're going to prison right then and then you you can appeal. Right. Yeah. He was released.

Jerry is released on both of them on a $50,000 appeal bond each. So, yeah. Cecilia doesn't get out till the next day. She gets out on the 16th. I don't know why. But by February 17th, both of them are on the street. Wow. So they have an appeal here.

That's gone, right? That's not legal anymore. No, they're not on murder. Remember the one case we had a few? It was one of the precedent cases. So terrible. That was the one guy who killed his wife. Was he a cop or something in the one case we did?

And then he was like 20 episodes ago. And it was the same exact thing. He was out on bail. And then the court decided that they're not doing that anymore thank god they pulled him back into jail so now here we go to appeals because they're out on appeal bonds the appeals court finds that the court erred in failing to grant a mistrial because of a reference by rosa to having taken a polygraph test on cross-examination uh they like i told you what happened there uh rosa replied that the statement was untrue and was made before she quote took the polygraph test which thereby

implying that everything she said afterward on trial on behalf of the state was true that's what they said because they said oh it's the the jury could think it's been vetted by a lie detector so it must be true the defense attorney for cecilia moved for a mistrial the court denied the motion and told the jury to disregard the statement as having nothing to do with it basically later on cross-examination when questioned about the truthfulness of prior statements rosa made references such as i can't answer that without doing something the judge asked me not to do which is referencing the lie detector again and said quote i can't explain it because the judge won't let me, which is basically saying it again. So I can't talk about that thing that I'm not allowed to talk about because the judge

won't let me, which is that one thing that they're not supposed to think about in the jury box. The only thing they're not supposed to think that I can't. That's what I'm thinking about. So forget it, guys. Don't think about it. So every time this happened, it's not good court work no every time this happened the uh cecilia's council moved for another mistrial and every time he was fucking

denied they said the situation is aggravated by the fact that the defense council tried to approach the bench to prevent any reference to the polygraph examination but the court refused to hear the objection and the testimony came in immediately afterwards so they were like stop it you're being an idiot and then a second later he was proved completely right the lawyers fuck he wouldn't let me do that they said cecilia uh and her lawyers correctly argue that the trial court erred in allowing a guy named eric crichton to testify over her objection that he received a telephone call from a man who identified himself as jerry the employer of rosa lipe okay now the caller wanted to know the amount of proceeds of

the insurance policy on the life of carl lipe whether there was double indemnity clause crypton was a critton was a guy who worked for the insurance company and he's saying that he's the employer jerry called the insurance company saying he was the employer of Rosa asking questions about that specific policy on life. Basically, Mr. Krypton in court opined that the caller on both occasions was Jerry Rolson, although he'd never met or talked to Jerry Rolson and didn't know what his voice sounded like. But they allowed him to get up there and say that. Yeah. So the requirement of authentication or identification as a condition precedent to the admissibility is satisfied by evidence sufficient to support a fine. Basically, you need some sort of way to say that what it is. Voice identification.

They need to be firsthand. It needs to be, you know, the person very well. You've talked to them a hundred times. There's ways to do it or an expert doing it but not just never met him never talked to him but it must have been him had to be had to be him he said it was him shit it could have been anybody they said in the case that here there's no basis for creighton to identify jerry rolson as the individual calling him uh furthermore there's no reliable circumstantial evidence to his identity there's nothing although it's possible that he was able to identify uh the caller based on hearing his voice at trial

that's not you can't do that basically because he wouldn't have known that before he was called to testify to something he didn't know so that's you know chicken before the egg fucking thing there so the verdict here it says quote j Jerry correctly argues that there is insufficient evidence to support his conviction. And there was no evidence corroborating the testimony of Rosa Leip. Basically, it's just Rosa going. They killed him. And the Rolson's are saying, Rosa, we got her a gun and she killed him. So who do you believe?

So but Rosa has immunity is the difference. Yeah. So, yeah, basically, they said thatcilia is an accomplice in this whole thing she sounds like the one well then we'll find out here they said a conviction cannot be had in a case of felony upon the testimony of accomplice unless it's corroborated by other evidence that's a major court thing that tends to connect the defendant with the commission of the offense corroboration is not sufficient if it merely shows that the offense was committed and the circumstances thereof both of them are overturned what both of them both convictions and sentences

overturned for both the rolsen's do it again uh well jerry and cecilia after this over the next year they get a divorce they're like you know what all the all the affairs came out and everything like that and all this murder. So much for the couple that murders together. Not quite here. Yeah, they also don't fuck together. That's the problem. So the court decides that there is not enough evidence to retry Jerry.

Basically, all they have is Rosa saying that she did that cecilia is a co-conspirator and she's saying that they don't know anything so she's not saying he did it so it's only rose's testimony and the appeals court just said that that's not enough so there's not enough evidence to convict jerry oh boy so jerry no new trial jerry is free oh boy free free as a bird no no fucking not a murder no new charges nothing and uh but the court does order a new trial for cecilia because there's evidence from bill bushong or and all those other people that are connecting her there yeah whereas jerry wasn't around for that is she gonna try and talk her way out of it well september 25th 1981 is her trial it starts out opening uh statements here the uh she accused somebody else of pulling

the trigger could have been anybody she's like it had to be somebody but it wasn't me and the prosecutor said that the prosecutor saying they have a tough job because they have to say that she didn't pull the trigger her husband did who's not being charged currently you know so it's a it's a very weird thing the prosecutor said that the testimony would show that she plotted the death of carl because he wouldn't go along with the prostitution ring blah blah blah so jerry was permitted to testify here they had they called jerry to the stand which is super weird to have the guy who actually did this on the stand. Very strange. He's permitted to testify that Cecilia had personal problems because he's her husband.

So or was her ex-husband. So they're like, he knows her well enough to give some weird. This seems bad, though. It seems awful. Seems like it's going to fuck the trial up, too. You got again, character. Yeah. Yeah.

He also testified that cecilia once asked him at a nightclub to approach other women about being in prostitution rings so cecilia was like let's go recruit women like let's go see if she wants to fuck for money for us like let's go higher really weird job fair yeah fucking club at the bar yeah so uh now jerry though i'm sorry uh she cecilia says she didn't know anything she said she didn't even know that carl was dead until the police questioned her about the shooting it's like i didn't know anything she said she she took the stand she was on the stand for two hours she denied any involvement she said she was not involved in the in the three attempts to poison carl two weeks before that

wasn't involved at that at all uh nothing and jerry said also jerry testified i that he knew nothing about the murder also yeah because that's his own ass i don't know shit either this is crazy so they said they the they first knew about the murder when the police questioned them they both said that and now rose said come come in here, Rosa, and she testified that they tried to pull her in. Prostitution scheme, the whole deal. Mrs. Rolson here, Cecilia, she testified that Rosa made the accusation, quote, in order to save her own neck because she's the real murderer. Obviously.

So she is convicted. Good. Again, Cecilia. And sent away for life again. Okay. October 82, she takes it all the way to the Supreme Court, baby. God damn it. Going all the way to the Supreme Court.

She argues that she cannot be an accomplice since she was not present when the murder took place. Which is just not the law. The law does not work like that. You don't have to be present uh she can't disclaim responsibility because she didn't take part in every act that made up the whole crime is what the court says any part of it you're part of the conspiracy anything the right hand washing the left the left doesn't even have to know the rights washing it they're both in a conspiracy if they're both benefiting that's the thing so uh yeah they said the arguments of error by the

defense basically they say the judge refused to allow the defense to inform the jury that jerry roulson's conviction was reversed and dismissed on appeal right so you know a refusal to allow instruction or testimony in reference to that and his refusal to allow that the defense to mention that jerry roulson was not currently charged. Because that would make the jury go, oh, is this the only person that should go to jail for this murder? The alleged trigger man is free. The wife who set the guy up and made the insurance money, she's out. Should Cecilia be the only person in jail?

That's what the defense wants to do. The defense kind of wants to do that. Like, hey, let's tell them about Jerryerry and maybe they'll feel bad for her here uh but they said that this would prejudice the state's right to require her to account for her conduct there and uh it they argue about the uh they argue more about the rose of light they bring that back up again the hardest son of a bitch that he ever killed that statement from jerry uh this whole deal here so uh they end up saying that the the only implication of she tried to at one point by the way blame it on bushong too she said the only implication of his guilt comes from his testimony that cecilia once told him that she wanted carl

killed but that's it there was no uh he said she thought she was joking and there was also inconsistent testimony from cecilia and uh that of thing. Then she argues in her last ditch that Jerry should not have been able to testify against her in the second trial because he was her husband. But at the time they were divorced. OK, she said that she said it violates privilege for husband wife confidentiality and all that sort of shit. He also testified that Cecilia told him about the prostitution ring, recruit girls. They said that the second instance is obviously not intended to be confidential because Cecilia indicated she wanted the content to be related to other women. And there's evidence that other people were present. So basically, if we didn't get Jerry to say it, we could have found other people who heard it.

So it wasn't like you two were sitting in the privacy. Because's what it's meant to protect you're telling everybody anyway if you're sitting in the privacy of your bedroom with your husband or wife and sharing things that that shouldn't be infringed on that's a different story the nest of trust yeah if you're out at a club and you're like jerry see if that girl sucks dick for cash that's not a sacred you know fucking thing there that's just you being a jerk off they said the defense neglected to demonstrate how uh anything prejudiced the prejudiced her there was no showing that the trial judge abused his discretion in any way shape or form and it's argued that passing the error uh it's argued in passing that error could during the cross-examination of certain defense witnesses, might have been there, but not enough to make a goddamn difference.

The state upholds the first-degree murder conviction against Cecilia. Life in prison for her. Jerry Friesberg. Forever? Friesberg. Forever. He remains not charged. Get the fuck out of my life.

They have no evidence against him everybody's in their best interest to say that he wasn't there and if they do say he's there then they've already been yeah told her a lie so it's oh i thought she for sure was gonna flip no they're divorced and uh well then she'd have to admit her part but she's trying to get off on the appeal she can't do that she's in it too deep already. She's in too deep. So he remains not charged. He remains out. Yeah.

In 1988, his brother, Ed, died. Oh, no, I'm sorry. His brother, Ed, in 1988. This is hilarious. Sorry, Ed. Sorry, Ed. You're alive. No, he's dead now, but he was alive then.

He was the winner of the ninth annual Chickasaw Chili Cook-Off. Oh. And he had a bunch of trophies in front of him there. Makes a hell of a ninth annual Chickasaw chili cook-off. Oh. And he had a bunch of trophies in front of him there. Makes a hell of a chili. Makes a good chili. So Jerry's out and enjoying his brother's delicious chili. This isn't fair. 1989, Jerry buys some land.

I found a land transaction in an old Arkansas newspaper here, a real estate thing. Tommy G. Saliba sold him some land for $47,000. So there's that uh 1990s he gets remarried to a woman named shirley okay um 1994 he files bankruptcy so that didn't work out too well for him that is chapter 7 bankruptcy in november of 1994 at some point in here he gets divorced from shirley and ends up with a marrying a woman named dora so i mean he gets around this this is at least his fourth wife that i know of at least fourth wife getting off murder charges this guy's a fucking bounder man he's a crazy one he goes so march of 1996 this is interesting here march of. He's charged with perjury after a cassette tape containing his alleged confession to Carl Leip's murder was discovered by the estranged wife of his brother and turned over to authorities. Oh, my God.

He gave this tape to his brother for safekeeping. They got divorced. He didn't take all his shit out. She found it, said, what's this? Oh, it's that asshole ex-brother-in-law of mine that i hated and didn't want to have over at easter and they had me fucking invite anyway your brother-in-law sucks just as bad as your chili and i'm here you go here you go motherfucker gave it to the authorities he testified at trial that uh that during uh during uh cecilia's trial that neither he nor Cecilia were involved in the murders.

This tape was allegedly recorded by a private investigator in 1981 between the time he was convicted and the time that it was overturned. Oh, so he thought he was fucked. He thought he was fucked anyway because he was convicted. So he did this thing

and then it was overturned. He's like, oh, I don't know anything anymore. So, yeah. I got to get rid of this tape. Not destroy it, but give it to this thing and then it was overturned. He's like, oh, I don't know anything anymore. So, yeah. I got to get rid of this tape. Not destroy it, but give it to my brother. Give it to my brother. I don't know why

you wouldn't take it out and smash it into 10,000 fucking pieces. But, yeah, the attorney, Val Price of Jonesboro, who represented Rolson, says the perjury charge should be dismissed

because of the statute of limitations. But the prosecutor said the statute might not apply to perjury if should be dismissed because of the statute of limitations but the prosecutor said the statute might not apply to perjury if it's considered fraud fraud comes under a different statute that charges must be filed within a year of the time the fraud was discovered which is just now suck it so fuck you that's basically what they're saying he turned himself into the sheriff's office in green county and was released on a five thousand dollar bail the charges are were that he lied during his trials when he testified that he did not kill or have any knowledge of the circumstances surrounding the death of carl lipe quote unquote

according to the transcript filed of the taped conversation between rolson and another person rolson implicates himself and his wife at that time, Cecilia and Rosa. According to the transcript filed in support of the perjury charges, Rolston said he, Cecilia and Rosa got Leip Carl to go with them, presumably they told him

they were going to buy drugs. So come with us, we're going on a drug run. And then he said, quote, I shot him again. And then he fell down on the drug run and then he said quote i shot him again and then he fell down on the hill the embankment i shot him again i kept on shooting he began to vomit and was still breathing oh my god yeah that's uh he'd be so he this he fucking yeah yeah this was not good he said i started to run and remembered what cecilia said she said cecilia

and rosa both said to make sure he's dead until he quits breathing and empty the whole gun on him. This is what the woman told him. And if he's not dead, reload, they told him. He's still breathing. I held one side and shot him right there. And when I shot him there, he stiffened out. So that was what he said.

He describes the murder in detail, as a matter of fact. And he's out on bail september 1996 he's supposed to show up for court he doesn't fucking show up he's on the run they're looking for him sure he it's in the paper that he's a fugitive yeah uh he's on here he's 52 at this point charged with two counts of perjury failed to appear in court there's a bench warrant out for his arrest going after him uh the though, wanted the court to happen that day because he wanted to argue about statute of limitations and get it tossed. And Jerry didn't fucking show up. So he screwed him.

2002. All of that somehow cleared up. I don't know what happened. But 2002, Jerry's wife, Dora, dies. Oh, no. At 61. Hopefully he didn't kill her. Off to explore the big sky i would

say march 1st 2006 jerry's son jerry dies at 39 39 jerry was a navy veteran his son was in the navy he died in a one car accident i have the accident report here that's so sad yeah it was a 92 pontiac was traveling north on state highway 141 lost control in a curve drove off the highway and struck a tree and so single car driver died at the scene there so uh there's that now july 20th 2007 comes around and the arkansas clemency board is making its recommendations four murderers were recommended for early release this day these are four convicted murderers including larry davis bobby j mitchell freddie hendricks and cecilia rolson were among those recommended on a list on monday and then rolson

was sentenced to life in prison she was convicted obviously in 79 the board's recommendations go to the governor and then there's a 30-day noted public notice period where people can bitch and complain and the only thing i saw people bitching and complaining about was i think the bobby mitchell one because this person's family was like everybody because i think it was a robbery where he shot a store clerk and very senseless you know one of those so there was one of those so we believe that uh cecilia there she's recommended for clemency so that could happen anytime after that 30 days 11 days later yeah 11 days later july 31st 2007 um jerry files for chapter 7 bankruptcy again

so i don't know if that if he's trying to protect some kind of assets from her does he think that she's going to come after him for something trying to sue him or something but 10 days after she's recommended for clemency he files for bankruptcy get out that seems something yeah i don't know i can't help you so uh i don't know whatever but 2008 jerry's brother dies and then uh from what i can see jerry is still alive. He's out there. I found his address. I'm not going to tell you about it, but I found his address and everything. He voted in 2018.

The guy is a fucking citizen that is just as much of an opinion as you, only he's a fucking shot people in his own words. I don't know. So, yeah. But Cecilia, she ended up being the only person to do any time for this and looks like she ended up doing like 28 years for this she got out it seems like she got out yeah i can't find her and an inmate search at this moment and if she was recommended for clemency by the board after 27 years and she's not even the trigger man they

probably let her out i don't imagine because she you can't say like she's a monster who you know can take a person apart and without any remorse like she wasn't even there so it'd be difficult oh boy yeah and she's older now and we don't think anyone's gonna pay for that ass at this point so it's fine she's still giving it for free she's still giving it for free now that's a crazy story and if that wasn't a crazy enough story i have have to tell you a quick other story. Yeah. That it's one of these stories that's just not long enough to do a whole episode on, and even a bonus episode. But Jesus Christ, it needs to be told that it happened. Okay.

Okay? On October 31st, 1989, this is in southeastern Arkansas here, a woman named Gladys Crow, who was in her late 60s, was found partially submerged in a pond located on a property. Okay. Not owned by her or anybody that she's related to. Now, the body's partially enclosed in a yellow body bag, and there's a rope tied around the body, which is used to hold concrete blocks in place to weigh the person down.

So it looks like a mob hit basically here uh which is very strange how old is she she's like 68 i think so the mob doesn't usually take care of those ladies yeah rural arkansas ladies like your needlepoint sucks bitch and fucking kill her and put her out here i don't know what she's doing that fucking jam you sold me at the farmer's markets bunk you're going in the pond so the next day a man named donald bates comes to the police with a story and this is a story that you guys absolutely need to hear he didn't even need to do this he came on his own out of guilt or whatever he uh he came and he told the police um yeah the woman who dead, you want to talk to her daughter, who's 41 years old. Her name is Nancy Crow.

Nancy's a tiny little thing. She's five foot tall, 110 pounds, little tiny thing. He says she killed her mom there, Gladys Crow. And yeah, he lives on the property with which he and another person purchased from Mrs. Crow and her husband. So there's like a property right near them. They cut off a chunk of their land and sold it to these people. So they said that these people were behind the Bates. Bates's house was behind their house, the Crow's house, right?

So he said that Nancy had expressed concern that she believed her mother planned to disinherit her okay yeah so she asked donald bates to assist her in a plan to murder her mother she's like can you help me kill her before she writes me out of the will i mean this is ridiculous she's old anyway yeah whatever so that was kind of her attitude so miss uh the gladys crow the mother is expected to arrive at uh at the trailer home of nancy in the morning on the morning of october 3rd okay now keep in mind she was found october 31st yeah so the at this point donald bates and nancy designed a little plan so that this is fucking insane this is small town murder all the way right you're not

going to hear this anywhere else so that nancy could use a crossbow yeah to shoot an arrow through the window of her trailer from the inside at her mom as she came in the house walked through the front door through the window as she walked toward the front door through a small gate she's like you get her in that gate and that's going to frame her perfect and i'll pop her with the crossbow from inside the trailer lord firing a crossbow at your mother through an open trailer window is the most fucking panhandle shit i've ever heard in my life it doesn't get yeah more than that come on class murder this is some low class murder. That's just some low class. She didn't even have weaponry here.

So, wow. Yeah, shoots. So this is what ends up happening here. So they talk different things. Well, maybe we could do this. How do we get her here? I could take her over here. You pop her from over here.

Maybe you could get on the roof. And they threw all these different scenarios of how you're going to take her mom out with a crossbow, which is fucking ridiculous. Fucking Robin Hood. So finally, this Bates guy, he says that he was actually present that morning. Gladys Crowe arrived, got out of her car, and he said, hey, why don't you walk through this little gate entrance here? I'll help you over here. As she walked through the gate, Nancy fucking shot her with the crossbow out the trailer window. Didn't kill her though

not a fatal wound this woman is just probably very curious as to why someone shot her with a crossbow at her daughter's house it's a very strict you don't expect to get hit with an arrow at your daughter's house probably even in arkansas that's weird hit her i don't know but somewhere non-fatal uh yeah so i don't even know what to say there shoots shot her with the goddamn thing wound wasn't fatal she stumbled back to her car with the arrow stuck in her to try to get out of here run away right so by the time though uh you know she gets over there by this time though nancy had run over to her from the house and Donald Bates helps Nancy stop her mother, stop an older lady with an arrow in her from getting in the car. It's probably not that difficult.

I know why you need help, but they were able to stop her. At that point, Gladys Crowe passed out from blood loss because she's just fucking bleeding from an arrow wound probably that and the adrenaline of the whole thing she passes out from she got the vapors yeah passes out from blood loss and uh they drag her dates and and nancy drag her out of the car and lay her down in the yard and then nancy proceeds to shoot gladys with the crossbow three more times at close range. Wow. Like a fucking mob hit. Unbelievable.

You said put two in the head when he's down. Except with a crossbow. So she had to do that. You know how hard it is to load a crossbow? To reload one of those? You got to put it against your chest and pull it back. Okay. Poof.

Okay. One more. That's a real forearm workout. Jesus fucking christ what are you doing what the fuck are you doing oh my god i don't know so it does that twice three times three times all together so four times all together three shots of four arrows too you're pumping in this lady bates then tells the court how he and nancy disposed of of Gladys's body her clothing her car yeah acted like she just disappeared I don't know push your car into a swamp yeah I don't know what the fuck happened uh got rid of the arrows you know the whole deal um now prior to Bates

confession the police though had already found Gladys's car yeah which Bates had burned soon after the murder to get rid of bloodstains that were in there. She tried to get in the car and bled all over it. She lit it on fire. So they lit it on fire and the cops found it, obviously. And that's that's what happened there. So they were suspicious, obviously, that she didn't disappear and then set her car on fire. And she wasn't like run away. She didn't have gambling debts or something like she wasn't trying to fake her own death or anything she's an old lady with gambling debts so uh yeah

this is fucking crazy so after he confessing bates takes the police to where he and nancy had disposed of the clothing and the arrows and all that shit they were able to get the clothing and two arrows from a creek the other two two floated away. It's a creek. They got taken by the current or something. So based upon his confession, they obtained an arrest warrant for Nancy. They do two searches of her home and they found two different diary sheets. Sheets of paper contain references to the murder and further implicated her. It's like, you know, I don't know how I feel about killing my mom today.

Like shit like that. Okay. Now, at the time of her arrest, she was a patient in a hospital in Texas. She tried to make a run for it. I think she got in a car accident and ended up in a hospital there. So this is crazy. So basically, upon the request of the sheriff there, local law enforcement officers, you know, they did the arrest at the Texas hospital. She was on oxygen and attached to an IV at the time.

Good Lord. Nancy was. They did a search. They did a search to her shit there to look for possible weapons and shit. They removed a kitchen knife from her house that they thought had something in it another officer was in her room and uh asked if a diary had been found during the search and upon returning to the room her hospital room the texas officer saw a diary there because they just found pages that she had torn out about the murder and put in her house so they said is there is there more of this diary does she possibly have it and they said we just found a diary here they went well motherfucker

uh do that so it's a brown three-ring notebook covered in foil what very strange weird girl it was situated on a tray table about five to six feet from her bed the officer seized the diary and she'll argue later at trial and on appeal that the officers unlawfully sees the diary. But it's a plain search. It's a plain view search. It's a different thing. You don't you don't need a search warrant if it's sitting out. Also, you did nothing to make it not noticeable.

You wrapped it in Reynolds wrap. Yeah. So it shined in the light. You made us see it. You fucking idiot. Hey, look what I got. Is that a giant square baked potato? What is that?

Oh, I love baked potatoes. Shit. The first entry on this diary is Thursday, February 9th, 1989. It's some notations on the bottom of the page. It has the words Foxfire, Sportfire, and Spitfire listed. It's Foxfire, Sportfire, and Spitfire listed. And by the side of each of those is the number, dollar amount, 262. And there's a notation that says, quote, most energy efficient, 30, 35, 40, 60 yards deadly, 150-pound pole, $40 for cocking device, arrows $4 each. This bitch was shopping and jotting it down.

She was fucking shopping around to get a good value on arrows to kill her mom. What the shit? She couldn't even splurge. She couldn't even splurge. Mom's worth the good arrows. What the fuck are you doing here buying sale arrows? It's bullshit. This one's only accurate up to 40 yards.

Meanwhile, she's above her face. It's fucking ridiculous, man. She had an objection to this. The prosecutor asked to basically they brought a guy in to tell about the crossbows. He said, quote, okay, it shows that she was comparing crossbows

here, their pound pull distance in which they're effective and price of arrows. She was looking for the best buy on a crossbow, even though the officers didn't have a search warrant to search her room permits of plain view search there and uh all of that shit she is found guilty yeah and you ma'am may certainly fuck off life without parole and she's still in prison yeah she's in arkansas prison she is also has a writer prisoner profile that i can't get the fucking i don't know if she took it down but when you search it it comes up on the site you can see

it she's 71 years old she's saying that she had a liberal arts education before she went into the joint and fucking she's 28 years into her journey and all this bullshit but uh yeah she's on there and it says capital murder under her crime so boy take a fucking watch out for nancy crow be be careful that's one of those stories how do you not tell that story at some point i'm like it's not long enough for an episode but i feel like our people need to know about a woman who decided that a bow and arrow was the best way to kill her mom a crossbow a crossbow was fucking even worse. Yeah. So, yeah, that is Marmaduke, Arkansas, and another little crazy story.

Thank you, Arkansas. Thank you, Arkansas, for all of your insanity there. Hope you enjoyed that episode. If you did, how can they do it? Can they possibly tell anybody about it, Jimmy? I think they can. You know how you can do that?

Apple Podcasts, that purple icon. Get on there. Give us five stars it doesn't matter what you say but say something because it helps drive you up the charts and it takes way less time to say something that does to tell you about hillbilly murders so do that for us help us out a lot also head over to shut up and give me murder.com what's what's there jimmy everything every goddamn thing everything crime and sports and small town murder related and let's have a talk right now are you listening to crime and sports if you're not

why why is it you're going i don't know i don't really like sports that doesn't matter do you have to like sports no no not at all you have to like idiots and most of all you have to like us making fun of idiots that's the one if you enjoy that you're gonna like crime and sports i promise you that right now that's every t Tuesday wherever you listen to podcasts. That's why this exists. That's exactly right. That was the first one. It's the original.

And we're four years into that bad boy. It's awesome. Also, listen to P.S. I Hate This Movie every Friday where me and my wife, Sarah, will make fun of bad romantic comedies. And man, do I get off on some rants on that show because I am forced to sit through shit I don't want to watch with the very little time that I have free in the world. So, boy,

if you want to hear me angry a lot, that's a good one for that. So check that out wherever you listen to podcasts every Friday. Also everything. Jesus, you guys have been so fucking good to us. Follow us on social media. You can do that very easily. We are at Murder Small on Twitter, at Small Town Pod on Facebook, at Small Town

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a you're going to be a good person right number one karma's good you're going to get karma because uh we're giving you all we can so to give something back is a nice thing so that's nice there that would be enough i think right there it should be but on top of that you are going to get access to bonus shit galore tons of bonus stuff We do pretty much at least three bonus small town murder episodes a month, if not four. And then we do a couple of crime and sports too. So you're going to get like four to six extra episodes a month, an hour long or so of crazy shit that we find and good comedy. And you're going to really like it, especially you're going to like it this week because the tables are turned, my friends. Tables are turned my friends tables are turned jimmy will be telling me a story

right on this next episode that will come out this week patreon episode he's going to tell me a story he found the murder he wrote it all down he's going to tell it i researched the whole goddamn thing he did it all it took him like three weeks to get a bonus episode so uh but that means he was concentrating and doing a good job. I took due diligence. So I'm telling you, we're going to have a good time with that.

That's going to be fun. Listen to that this week and everything about that. And that's amazing for everybody that does contribute to the show. We can't do it without you. We really, really appreciate everything you do. We can't express that enough,

how much we do. That's why we try to put out different kind of bonus content for you and everything because we really do appreciate it and we want you guys to be entertained as much as we can possibly entertain you so thank you for doing that if you want to make a one-time donation that's just going to make you a nice person your karma is going to be good uh and if you if you meet us and you're like hey i'm this person we're gonna be like oh shit for PayPal, thank you.

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So with that said, you know what I need, Jimmy? What do you got? I need it. I need hit me with it like a barrage of arrows from a crossbow. I need the list of the finest and most wonderful goddamn people on the face of this earth right now. This week's executive producers are Gene Lyon, Jill Fry, Christiane Costaldi.

Thanks. Good to see you again. Thank you. Chris, thank you. Courtney Chaney, Amy Spicer donated both ways. Thank you, Amy. Heather Langdon, Galen Harris, Susanna Platt, Carrie Clark. Congratulations on your daughter, Razor Strong.

She listens to us with the baby, which is very nice. Sweet. Thank you. Brand new. Travis with no last name. Don Tanner. Oh, boy. What did I do?

Lomba Lamba? Lomba Lomba? No. Wombago? I think. I don't know. That's a tough one. Samantha with no last name. Jordan Bennett. Terry Anderson. Pamela Sloan, the original Pamela. Pamela. Austin Kukendall. Corey Herman. Daniel Litterall. Literal.

Literally Daniel. Yes, it is. Kathleen with no last name. Danielle Harris. Dan Seward. Anastasia with no last name. Erin Edrington. Edrington. Billy. No, Bailey. Sorry.

Duncan. Tim Peterson. Jordan Hall. Chelsea O'Neill. Efren Valentin, I think. Nicole Ellis. Diane McCreary. Justin Saar.

Thanks, Justin. Heather Gunn. Santiago Quinones. And other producers this week. Are we ready? We're ready. Catherine. Justin. Heather Gunn. Santiago Quinones. And other producers this week. Are we ready? We're ready. Catherine, what is this? Logan.

Hang in there. It's going to get better. You're a real hero. That's the God's honest truth. You are. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. Carl Kirshner.

Josh Jessup. Danielle Stewart. James Marder. Jude Kendall. Greg Hoffman, I think. Cherie Taylor. Colin Fishbaugh. John Knickerbocker, Reagan Shalkley, Ashley Veo, Andrea Cleaver, Peyton Meadows, Ryan Shank donated both ways.

Thanks, Ryan. Yeah, thank you so much. Bobby Bierce, I think, is it that is? Christina, no, it's Kristen. Quintiliana? No. Quintiliani, that's it. Adam Dugdale, Raja Nicole, Trey Volkanar, Vicky Gleave, Corey Camper, Alexis Clark, quintillion e that's it adam dugdale rajah nicole trey vulcan are vicky gleave cory camper

alexis clark madeline clark shandell whitney thank you very much shandell yeah thank you guy amster bill kirchner uh lisa fun-sized shoe talk i think fun-sized shoes she's tiny shoes uh stephanie christ uh jesus's daughter obviously obviously Tell Dad we said hi, really. I know he's busy, but I've been meaning to text him back. Tell him I'm sorry. Hollis Leiby. Anna Arradondo. That's it. Sarah Acosta.

Tim Donahoe. Brittany Whitehall. Susan Gale. Eunisha Butler. Patrick Palouse. Joel Ponchok. Christopher Danley. Fuck.

Wayne Rose. Taylor Zito. That Agger, Janice Hill, Graham Wilson, Megan Lee, Shannon Henney-Seiler, Kristen George, Jessica Doherty. Doherty? No, that's not it either. Okay. Galen Harris. I think I said that. Jessica Sherman. Brenna Pink Pampina. Okay. I mean, it's your list, Jimmy.

It certainly sounds gross. It's sure up to you. I don't know. Marvin Page. Danielle Mark. Or Mar. Jessica Sherman. Jackie Sukup.

George Callahan. Abby with no last name. Kyla Stevens. Emily Buzka, I think, Krista Walker, Thomas Smith, Nicholas Palmieri, Mike Harrison, Allison Sellers, Melissa McAllister, Halls Famer TV, I think, Christina Lambert, Courtney Gillespie, Sarah Bareilles, Jesse McCrary, Annemarie Navarro, Amateur Radio, that's easy enough, Kayla Rippey, Marissa Sillick, God damn it, Robert Jones, Samantha McClintock, Linda with no last name, Tracy Jacobs, moving on. Hey, the name you can pronounce, that's terrific. Josh Gardner, Dixon Jimenez.

Oh, I get it. Jimmy's ass. I see what you're doing, Dixon. Joe Tubioli. No. Amanda Rene. Ruben Rodriguez. Tracy Shipper.

The Goggles. Trey Bivens. Azariah Jelks. Steve, give it a second shot. Laura Dowden. Super Lava. Nope. All right.

Moving on. Jim Corgan Hatfield. Kevin Withrow. Jillian Mee uh carrie mccall rachel clark courtney with no last name brianna russover jessica shannon allison newbold uh beth mitchell stevie ryder dakota cleaver bridget o'malley derrick dominey fuck jenny with no last name savory i think share uh chery think share Cheryl Elder Brian freeze what no brain freeze that is why Jason Jason Angel Janet would know last name John Little Donald Shrumpf Jr. Coltie, Pablo Diablo, Cody, Martin, Martin Haler. I'm really, I'm really at the end of my rope. You're doing a bang up job, Jimmy. I got to tell you. Helen Greenfield, James Meadows, Matt Chu, Beth McDonald, Matthew Tharp, Kate Chaney,

Meredith Kummel, Noah Tolbert, Rylan Jones, Emily Dumas, Mike Griffin. He wants to give up so bad right now. You have no idea how much he wants to scoff. Never mind. Caleb Brown, Daniel Feliciano, Ethan with no last name, Nicole Watson, Amy Sorensen, Sean Spongenoggle. That's perfect. Jessica H., Debbie Patesek, probably not, Ryan Early, Bill Blomberg.

Sarah McCracken, Chris Jondreau. Ben White, Caitlin Comber. What did I do? Cobra Line. Shelby Graham. Fuck. Brian Cruz, William Pates. Brian with no last name.

Christy Rauscher, Nathan Nolte. You rule, Heather Sue. That's what I wrote. That's what I'm saying. Hey. Julia Takuhana. Jennifer Weather. Courtney Carter. Madison'm saying. Hey. Julia Takuhana. Jennifer Weather. Courtney Carter. Madison McCall.

Molly Whitmore. Victoria Sykes. Kasuka Dragon. Shelly Jones. Lisa Tucker. Molly Whitmore and Madison McCall. I said that. Damn it.

Okay. Now, Voyager. Jonas Doter. It's not right. I'm sorry. Zach Michael. Bill Cook. Lauren Besser, Zabel Thomas, Calum Foster. Calum. Jennifer Rausch, Ann Trapman, Ed Fredrickson, Michael Lepley, Jessica Groinevich.

Groinevich. Groinevich. Jeffrey Lee, Benga with no last name, Joel Wasaya. Wassum. Jennifer Haddard.oddard hoddard haddad i and ian ian regal rigel cindy finney erica compliment i think loretta howard hayward bennett ryan murray joe josh josh leonard hayley p steven kovic laura carpenter mark and tiffany Joe, Josh, Josh Leonard, Haley P. Stephen Kovach, Laura Carpenter, Mark and Tiffany, the Gooch Holbrook, Colleen Jams or Sams. I don't know if that's a J or an S. Woody Watson, Nanette Mijas, Amira Baltimore, Nicholas Augustine,

Tyler Crowder, Sharmell, Lori League, Isabel Silverstein, Nathan Laird, Becky Hoekstra, Catherine Tierney, Nathan Gardner, Stephen St. John, Heather Rogers. And that was a whole bunch of R's on purpose. Fiona Lees, Ashley Foradry, Michelle Snodgrass, Nick Goddammit Gildea. God god damn it gildea that's not right but i think i tried all right rachel elizabeth sasha barker total acts in detroit thank you very much brandon pacquin uh matt woj techie uh i think julia barcia uh julio i'm sorry james mcnair mcnair meg would no last name tim porter allison atkinskinson, Delia Keefe, Tasha Jaruzinski,

Tex Kirker, Christopher Romero, Michael Costable, Travis Counter, I think I did that right, Dennis Zimner, Courtney Hawkins, Amber Pendleton, Ben Byrne, Ashley Case, Jane Gordon, Vegas Matt, pendleton uh ben burn ashley case jane gordon vegas matt katherine norflecht norfleet kit cook out galvin cody piscitelli andrew lee nicole sage megan cook sharon quilley wiley fuck uh lee ramsell ryan fought homestretch i promise i swear to god i'm so bad you messed up your pages. There you go. Hey, you're almost done. Aaron and Emily Bensing.

Tim Fitzgerald. Michaela McCullough. King Jeffrey. John Wipert. Sarah Hamilton. Vicki Gleave. Summer Thompson. David Leighton.

Laura Tambolini. Fuck. Audrey Escalante. Don Lopez. Brian Cervantes. Christy Davenport, Amy Williams, Sarah Butler, Dave R., Serene Gann, Nevin Marie St. Pierre. She sent us a nice email. Thank you, Nevin.

Brian Tessman, Kelly Creighton, Emma Sties, Mel Patterson, Brittany, no, Bethany. Fuck. no bethany fuck uh tolama emma emma danielle kiger uh sherry vaughn michelle curtain chris hamburg ryan vanden eagenden nope yeah and then richard dykers and every one of our patreon supporters obviously thank you guys so much for everything you do we can't do what we do without you thank you everybody so much honestly from the bottom of our hearts for everything you do for us. And it's been for your money, honestly. I'm not going to lie to you. You guys that do that are keeping this show afloat.

You're keeping it going. We, you know, our main source of income is touring. We do touring. We go around. I think we do the best goddamn live show in podcasting. I don't know anywhere else you're going to go and laugh that hard and have that good of a fucking time. We try our asses off to really make the live show something that you guys

is worth paying for, worth plunking down the price of a ticket for, and going out and getting a babysitter or figuring out what you're doing, and all that shit, man. So thank you guys for doing that. We really want to get back out on the road and all that, so thank you guys. In the meantime, we're going to keep the Patreon shit

up even when we're back on the road, because you guys are kind of becoming accustomed to it, and we like giving it to you, so we're going to do it, and we'll figure out a way to get the time. It doesn't matter. It'll be there, and we'll find it, so that's all good. What if people wanted to know if you were there and find you? How could they do it, Jimmy? You can find me at

WismanSucks, W-H-I-S-M-A-N-S-U-C-K-S on Twitter and Instagram. What about you? You can find me at wisman sucks whisman sucks on twitter and instagram what about you you can find me at jimmy p is funny or just copy and paste my name from the show description and make it easy on yourself you know just google search petrogallo and have to do you mean fucking uh pimento and he'll be like no do you mean pinot grigio no i fucking don't i mean petrogallo and then you'll get frustrated and stop so just copy and paste and do all that and man i this has been quite the adventure this week it has our marmaduke prostitution rings and fuck man small town murder never stops i've had a great time i've had a good time too it's never gonna stop ever ever and especially next week and until next week everybody

it's been our pleasure. Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.