Small Town Murder - #18 - A Triple Murdering Con Man in Golden, Colorado

Episode Date: May 17, 2017

This week, we look at the picturesque town of Golden, Colorado, where a career con man took his crimes to the next, brutal level, leaving the town in shock over the gruesome results.Along the way, we find out that beer can build a town, that there are klansmen in the mountains, and how many quilts you actually need to have is to warrant an entire museum!! Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie WhismanNew episodes every Thursday!!Please subscribe, rate, and review!Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!Head to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder!For merchandise: crimeinsports.threadless.comCheck out James and Jimmie's other show: Crime in Sports Follow us on social media!Facebook: facebook.com/smalltownpodInstagram: instagram.com/smalltownmurderTwitter: twitter.com/MurderSmall Contact the show: [e-mail] See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week, we look at the picturesque town of Golden, Colorado, where a con man took his crimes to the next brutal level. Welcome to Small Town Murder.

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Yay, yay. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I am Jimmy Wissman. We cannot thank you folks enough for joining us. Most of all, we can't thank you enough for your iTunes reviews this week.

Lousa. Pushed us over 1,000, which is great. That's terrific. Please, if you haven't done it yet or if you're just thinking, I don't feel like signing in, it takes 30 seconds. It takes way longer to prepare the show. Trust me. If you just get on there, you give us five stars, say anything you want.

Anything. We don't care. Cars go vroom. We'll be like, yeah, that's true. They do. It's all good. They do. Especially monsters. They do.

That's right. It helps us on the business end like you wouldn't believe. Honestly, it puts you on the charts. And the higher you are on the charts, the more you get higher rates for your sponsors. The more important you are. It helps more than we can explain. Let's just say that. Yeah.

But without further ado, we really have to push through this this week because we are stuffing 10 pounds of murder in a five-pound bag this week, man. I mean, I'm telling you guys, honestly, it is. Oh, that's adorable. It's true. It's a lot of murder. We've got to buzz through the town stuff. Can't mess with that too much because we are chock full of murder this week.

Good. Before we get into this, good. Not for some people. Jesus, Joe. But before we get into that. The people that listen to this, it's good for them. The people that listen are going to love it, yes. But the people who it happened to, I don't think are that excited about it.

But you know what? That brings us to our disclaimer that we have to do every week. Just want to let everybody know this is a comedy program. Comedy, I sound like I was 100. It's a comedy program. This is comedy, you guys. Put my programs on. It's a comedy program.

This is comedy stories. It is. So the stories are real. The research is real. Everything like that is, the facts are 100% true. We do our best to make sure that it is as accurate as can be. But we do make jokes. It's a comedy podcast.

What's the idea? It's dark stuff, and we try to get through it with some humor and try to lighten the mood a little bit. We never make jokes at the expense of the victims, at the expense of the victims' families. We're not monsters at all, nothing like that. So if you don't think that comedy and true crime ever belong together- You're a monster. This probably is not the show for you. And we shake hands in part ways and say thank you for trying.

And also congratulations on your rosy, sunny life that you can get through everything. Congratulations on being perfect. Well, we're not. We're going to talk about some murder. I'm so flawed. So without further ado, I say let's get into this. What do you say? We're the only show that begs people not to listen beforehand.

Please don't listen. Okay, here's our show. Let's start it out here. Somehow it's working. I don't understand it. This week we are in Golden, Colorado. So gorgeous. The beautiful town.

Now, Jimmy, you are a Colorado native. I'm from Colorado Springs. I'm going to lean on you for some Colorado knowledge here. I'm going to ask you Colorado questions that are relevant. We're going to buzz through this here. It's in central Colorado, a little bit north central. It's right by Denver. It's right there outside of Denver.

20 miles outside of Denver, so it's like a suburb. But it seems like it's out on its own some. It's not like nestled in with three other towns. It seems like it's kind of out on the west side by itself. There's a brewery out there. It's beautiful. Yeah, it's only a nine-square-mile town. towns, right? It seems like it's kind of out on the west side by itself. You get the brewery out there. It's beautiful. Yeah, it's only a nine-square-mile town. Is that right?

Is it that small? It's a very small town and area. It's up there, 5,675 feet. So if you're not from America, you might not understand. You might not know that. It's the Rocky Mountains, man. Yeah, Denver is considered the mile-high city. This is right outside of it.

Zip code 80400, area code 303. It was founded, basically it's a gold rush town. Right. They found gold around there when they were looking for gold, and they're like, well, let's have a city here. Good enough, they have gold here. I knew that one wasn't oil. That's not oil, no, no. I knew that for sure.

You know, Lino Lakes with wild rice. This is a better find. This is beautiful. They have rice there. They do. Well, I'd rather have gold, so this is probably better. It's established June 16th, 1859 is when they established Golden City is what they called it.

Everything had a city back then. Denver was Denver City. Was it really? Yeah, it was at first Denver City, which I think was actually a little to the west of Denver. I don't even know why they named it Denver. It wasn't John. I know that.

No, I don't think he had any say in it. That's absolutely not at all. It was named for Thomas L. Golden, who was an important kind of a businessman in the area. There was a bunch of other businessman prospector assholes there. A guy named Golden lived in a town that was founded for the gold rush. That's awesome. How perfect is that? That's amazing. Yeah. It was actually the first capital of the provincial territory. It was the original capital. It was the original capital. It's the original capital. That's fascinating.

First of the Kansas territory because this was originally Kansas territory. And then once it became Colorado territory, it became the capital of that. And they moved it back and forth to Denver, to Denver City. I'm sorry. They moved it to Denver City and then moved it back and then moved it back again. They can't make up their goddamn mind. Like the fucking Raiders. Exactly.

They lost a lot of their people going into the Civil War for obvious reasons. You know what I mean? Once the Colorado Territory came in, it was the first official capital. During the 1870s, that's when all the colleges started. There's a lot of schools around there. There's Colorado University. There are all those schools that are attached to that. There's a lot of schools around there. There's Colorado University.

There are all those schools that are attached to that. Also, my favorite and where I hope my son goes and my daughter for that matter, this is the type of school you buy them a sweatshirt early and you put it in their crib. Colorado School of Mines. Oh, yeah. I have to go there. I'm like, listen, you guys have to know about mines. Setting them up for Black Lung. I like it. That's what I'm saying.

1873, Adolph Coors founds the Coors Brewing Company there. And they also have a big porcelain department to that, which I didn't know about. They make all these porcelain things for, I guess, components of, I don't know. Electrical components. Things like that. Stuff like that, yeah. Mechanical. Things have porcelain in them.

Insulators. And they make them. Yeah. Absolutely. The School of Mines actually gained, got a huge reputation. Really? That's the premier mine school. Fascinating.

I don't know how many other mine schools there are. Have you ever heard of a school of mines? Never. Never. So maybe that's all it is. It's world renowned because it's the only goddamn one. Go there if you want to go to that. Real quick, Colorado is named Colorado because the river, obviously, is the Colorado River.

But- Well, they had to name that for something. It was named because it's, I believe, Spanish word. It might be fucking Native American. Damn it. I they had to name that for something. It was named because it's a, I believe, Spanish word. It might be fucking Native American. Damn it. I'm going to have to Google it. It sounds Spanish. Either way, it's the color red.

Okay. Yeah, it's definitely- It sounds Spanish. Yeah. Let's go with Spanish on that one. I don't think- Because the red mud that goes through the Colorado River. That makes sense.

Gotcha. I'll buy that. Yeah. In the 1920s, the Klan, the Ku Klux Klan, they were just holding court there in the 1920s. They were booming. Booming business. They held big meetings up on South Table Mountain.

They burned crosses visible from the town. They would stop at this Jewish settlement, like a settlement of a lot of Jewish people that were from the Israel area. And they would stop in the 20s and just honk their horns outside of it on the way to the meetings. Like complete assholes. I used to be super proud of being from Colorado. I'm getting new knowledge today. They had their weekly rallies near a place called Castle Rock, which they referred to as Castle with a K Rock.

Of course. That was their thing. That's just south of Denver. It's a beautiful place. It's estimated that 10%, 10% of the male population in Colorado during the 20s were card-carrying Klan members. 10%. So when you think of Alabama or something, lump Colorado in with it, you racist bastards. I know there's a lot of racists there.

I wonder why they need legal weed. Calm down. Chill out. Chill out. They were like, we just need to calm the racists down. They're losing it, man. We need to get them bound in here. After World War II, it became a big boom town.

People moved there. I think in World War II, people came home and they were like, let's go out west and find some room. And that happened a lot because out west really became populated, as we know. Jobs and factories started moving out there. Baseball teams, everything. My family went around then, too. That's what I mean. And it's beautiful.

They do. I'm telling you. It's beautiful. Oh, it's gorgeous up there. It doesn't get any prettier than Colorado, if there's not a cross burning in the panoramic scenery. There's a lot of wood. A lot of wood there to burn, I guess.

The town's website touts. I love these slogans. It's where the West lives. That makes sense. It does. It definitely does. I think that would have been better for Ovando. Yeah.

That'd be where the West doesn't live because there's 70 people. Right. It's where the West settles and goes to die. That's where it is. Exactly. People from Stanford go there to die. Yeah. More, doing the population breakdown here, way more males than females.

It's almost 56% male. Listen, man. There's a lot of beer. Normally 51% female. So that's, I don't know if the mine college has something to do with that. And the beer. And the beer, I'm not sure. It's a young crowd there.

The median age there is 30.7, which is very young. Usually these towns, they all skew older usually, but the average is 37.4 is the median age around the country. There's way less children that are 0 to 14-year-old there. I don't know what it is. Young children, there's not a whole lot. Twice as many people as average of ages 18 to 24. So I'm assuming that's colleges. Gotcha.

That's the only thing I can imagine there. All age groups 65 and over are below average. So we're in the middle here. It's a young, there's only a few age groups that are really represented that well. Married population is like 10% less than usual. It's only about 41%. Really? It's almost 51% is the average.

Alcohol ruins marriages. Apparently it does. Or maybe minors, too. I don't know. Maybe they move there. And I'm thinking, I don't know if this is like the 1870s where people, you know, go into just, I'm going off into the woods with a pickaxe and hopefully I'll be home with some riches.

Maybe not. With some iron ore and some... Might get eaten by a bear. We'll see. We'll see what happens. We're not positive here. some might get eaten by a bear yeah we'll see what happens we're not positive here uh the the now married is also less than than because they have you know married ever and then now married that's also less way more single people uh racially it's 82 white which is about 20 higher

than normal yeah 1.04 black so not a lot of black people there's not no 12 is the usual uh 2.55 asian so they've let some Asians come there. I hope they weren't just there to build a railroad and then got trapped, but that's half the usual population of Asians. Almost 10% Hispanic, which is not bad. Still below average, but not bad. I mean, just the general population of Denver, it seems like the Hispanic population has grown quite a bit.

Yeah, probably Denver. And that's just east of there. I can imagine it's boomed there a little bit, too. Religion, 36% of people identify themselves as religious. There's not a lot of religious people up there. 50s average. That's your usual. It's just Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist.

Just a mixture of people. Mormons also, LDS there, obviously. 0.2% Jewish. Wow. There's like three Jewish people there. That's good. They got a couple. That's less chance of violence.

The more Jews you have, the less your violence goes. We're just going by our experience of the numbers. It's just numbers. 0.01% Muslim, so they've let a couple of Muslim people there. A couple guys come through. 51% Democrat, about 46% Republican. Yep. The rest are some independents there, which makes sense.

That's why there's legal weed. Yes. I would say. 95% of the people there are high school grads, which is very high. 53% have a four-year degree. Wow. 29% is the average. My goodness.

And we rarely hit that in a town. 53%? 53%. that in a town. 53%. 53%. That's a lot. And it shows because the median household income is higher here. It's $58,000 is the median household income. Average is about 53%. It's weird because it's haves and have-nots.

I'm assuming these are college students. More people make under $15,000 a year than normal, but way more people make over $200,000 a year than normal. That makes sense. That's those four-year degrees, man. Yeah, that's what I mean. It's the four-year degrees, and that's people probably with a lot of money maybe moving there just to retire at 42 if you made a bunch of money in the stock market. And own a mine. I'm going to go there, own a mine, trap some men underground, and act like a real mogul here.

Jobs where people are working in Golden. There's more business and finance there than average. No computers, engineering, nothing like that. No community social services, no legal, no arts, no entertainment, nothing like that. Get all that shit in Denver. Get it all in Denver. Health care, though. I don't know if all the hospitals are there for the whole area or what, but it's like

19% of the jobs are in health care practitioners and technology. It's minors. They need work after they retire. It's almost four times the average. So that's wild, man. All those guys got shit going on, some sort of disease that they earned from all the years in a mine. And then a much higher food prep and serving percentage than normal, but I assume from tourism that would be there.

So, yeah, that makes sense. Cost of living there. You need to make a lot because it's expensive. Oh, I'm sure. We do 100 being the baseline for cost of living. Overall cost of living here is 148, which is high. Groceries are actually lower. Utilities, transportation are lower. Thank you, King Soopers.

Things are lower. Health care is right on the money. But housing is $249,000 of $100,000. So think about that. It is two and a half times the average for housing. That is steep as shit. It is wild. It really is.

The average two-bedroom apartment here goes for $1,155,000. My goodness. $1,027 is normal. We'll do the golden real estate report real quick here. Like I said, the two-bedroom apartment. I found a two-bedroom, one-bathroom house. It's 800 square feet. It is $379,000.

Holy shit. Those are like outskirts L.A. prices. That's like Queens expensive. That's super expensive. That's a lot. For 800 square feet, you're talking about 300 grand. Yeah. Well, here's three bedroom, two bath, 1,300 square feet is $512,000.

That's not a huge house. That's like an average little house if you have two small kids or something. But they're beautiful. They're really cool houses. There's stuff to do outdoors, but holy shit, that's expensive. It really is. And as you get- You can't do anything outdoors because you've got to work all day to pay for your mortgage.

Yeah, it's amazing. Things to do here. Things to do. Ton of hiking. Yep. Ton of mountain climbing. Of course, the brewery tour. But guys, don't go to just do not go to Golden, Colorado and just go on the brewery tour. No. Hiking and all that. What you really

need to see is the Rocky Mountain Quilt Museum. Oh, no. Do they really? They have a Rocky Mountain Quilt Museum and it's in their top list of things to do. What the fuck would you... Why would you give a shit? I can't believe that somebody sat around and said, we need a museum for this shit.

We have so many quilts. There's just so many. And they're from a long time ago. We have old quilts. We have quilts made by famous people. We got soot on these ones. They're so important. Jesus. Wow. The crime rate.

Let's get into crime. A fucking quilt museum. A quilt museum. But these people in our story today are going to wish they had spent more time at the quilt museum. Crime rate, our thing here, and then we'll get right into the crime, is property crime, burglary, robbery, theft is just below the national average, so pretty safe for that. Violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, assault, less than half the national average. Wow. Like way under half the national average.

It's a small town. It's a small town safe, this place. You know what I mean? Nice little place. Now let's get into our people here that aren't so safe. I'd like to tell you folks, and Jimmy, I'd like to tell you all a little story, a little tale about a fellow named Wild Bill Cody. Oh, no. I know all about him.

Do you know him? Yeah. Yeah, this is not from— My sister shares the same birthday. Really? Yeah. Is this a Colorado institution? He's quite the historic man.

He's a piece of shit, this guy. He's a huge piece of shit. He was a drinking son of a bitch. And I was excited to see that he took, well, not excited, but I was happy to see that his crimes took place in a small town. Just because they're done anyway. There's nothing we can do about it. We might as well be able to talk about it. If it happened in a bigger city, we couldn't talk about it.

That's who we're talking about today? We're talking about Wild Bill Cody, William Lee Neal. William Lee Neal, better known as Wild Bill Cody. I wanted to introduce him like I was telling a story from the Old West, but it's not from the Old West. It's from the 80s and 90s, the 1980s and 90s, not the 80s. This is a different Wild Bill Cody then. Oh, we're talking about somebody different. Okay.

No, no, no. You're thinking about, what, an old cowboy or something? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. He was in the circus and shit. He was still a piece of shit. No, no, no. This guy is much worse. All right. I like that he earned himself a nickname of somebody that storied in Colorado. He didn't earn shit.

He just called himself Wild Bill Cody. That's hilarious. He's a complete con man, this guy. Really? And a complete scumbag. Let's get right into him. Oh, my God. It's a pile of asshole.

He's born on October 7th, 1955 in Belvoir, Virginia. He's the youngest of five children. He's got an older brother, three older sisters, so he's the baby, and his mom dotes on him, and he's the golden child of the family, that sort of thing. His father's a chief warrant officer in the Air Force. Neil here, we're going to call, I don't know, we'll call him, we'll call him Wild Bill. What the hell? Whatever. Old asshole Wild, let's call him Dickhead Bill. This is the

second guy that had a nickname. The other one, Animal. Animal, yeah. This one, he just made up a name because he thought it sounded like a cowboy. He's from Virginia. Later on, he dresses like a full cowboy in the 1800s. Really? You're like, you're from Virginia, dude. Like, you're from Virginia. You've lived in Texas and Alaska. You're not a cowboy. You drive a car. Stop it. You drive a car, dude. Like, you're from Virginia. You've lived in Texas and Alaska. You're not a cowboy.

You drive a car. Stop it. You drive a car, mister. Dickhead Bill here remembers his father as, quote, a good man and a disciplinarian. He said it was a very yes, ma'am, no, sir type of thing. You know, you get smacked around for talking back. Yeah. That sort of thing.

Like an old school military style raising. Sure. back. That sort of thing. Like an old school military style raising. Sure. When Dickhead Bill here, I keep grabbing for what to call him, when Dickhead Bill was about nine, his dad retired. He said that's when

things started to get a little off. When he was about 12, Dickhead Bill, not his dad, his dad started drinking heavily and started using his belt on him more and beating him more and just being generally a meaner guy to the family. When he was 12. Yeah, when Wild Bill was about 12 here, Dickhead Bill.

He loved his mom, said his mom was awesome. He called her, quote, the definition of love was my mother. He said she was beautiful, a gorgeous brunette, which is a little weird to say anyway. Somebody's got a weird boner for their mom. Yeah, yeah. He's got issues, this guy for their mom yeah yeah he's got issues this guy let's just say that said she was very devoted said that parents never fought he grew up in what he called an all-american family right parents never fought he said that one word

from his mother was enough to let his dad know that you know that that was enough yeah take it back and he'd apologize and you know it didn't take any shit so just a nice a nice couple said his father told him a lot. Don't steal. Don't lie. Do what's right. Tell the truth. If you do something wrong, you better come to me before anyone else does.

That sort of thing. Decent dad, yeah. Yeah, trying to raise him with some values. In 1965, they moved to San Antonio, Texas. That's where he got his – that's miserable. That's a place to get a shitty nickname. Now San Antonio is getting like to be a decent city. Back then, it seems like it probably smelled like shit in 1965.

I wasn't alive in 1965, and I definitely wasn't in San Antonio, so I don't know. It could have been very East El Paso. I think so. By the way, when we're driving to South by Southwest, quick, quick story here. We're driving through El Paso, and Jimmy looks to the south. He looks to the south, and he goes... Why don't they just move to the other side of the freeway? It's so much nicer.

South El Paso is a shithole. I go, that's Juarez. That's Juarez, Jimmy. That is not America. Jimmy, that's Mexico. That is Mexico. Oh, that makes sense. It's one of the worst towns in Mexico, as a matter of fact.

And they get to see how nice it is right across a freeway. Literally, there's a freeway dividing them. At least they're looking at El Paso and not a nice city. If they were looking at Golden, Colorado, you couldn't keep anyone. No, it would be a mad rush. You're going, eh, 601. Maybe we'll stay here. It's not that bad, I guess.

Dickhead Bill moves to San Antonio. He he's 10 years old and he has his first little run-in with trouble him and a friend of his they're in a little store little corner store they stole something small piece of candy something like that yeah they took the they caught him the security guard caught him and took him in the office yeah and they threatened to call their parents and they freaked out and cried and you know did everything they could so these people wouldn't call their manipulation learning early he was out and cried and, you know, did everything they could so these people wouldn't call their parents. Manipulation learning early. Because he was scared shitless of his dad.

His dad's going to beat him. Absolutely. And they didn't call the parents. They didn't call. He got away with it. And he says later on, quote, she thought she was giving me a break, and we thought we had really put one over on her, but she should have called my dad and had him whip the tar out of me. Maybe if she didn't give me that break, things would have been different. Now he's trying to blame shit on a lady in a shop when he was 10.

The breaking point for him was stealing a piece of bubble gum and getting away with it? No, I don't think so. That gives him a pass to be a shit the rest of his life? He attributes his behavior to 20 different things. I mean, they could all be factors, making the Voltron of an asshole. The Voltron. Making the Voltron asshole. But instead, they're all be factors, making the Voltron of an asshole, making the Voltron asshole. But instead, they're not.

Anyway, he still was on the right path. His dad took him to FBI headquarters in Washington, D.C. when they still lived in Virginia. And he wanted to be an FBI agent at the time. And then his second choice was to be a minister. So he wanted to be an FBI agent or a minister. That's a different ends of the spectrum yeah anywhere you land in the middle is about right yeah anything you wind up as from minister to fbi agent you're like i'm living the dream anything in there anything in the middle is fine

yeah that's fine i did it uh he said that he was named after his family pastor one of his uncles was a minister yeah and he said that he was so kind and gentle. And he also said that, quote, I loved the word of the Lord Jesus. I liked going to Sunday school because people just seemed to be nicer on Sundays. Never did like mean people. Everybody's nice on Sunday. Who does like mean people? It's such a weird statement. Yeah, it's Sunday.

Nobody fucking works. That's a great day. That's why. They're happy to be off. They're going home. The Broncos are on. They're not in Golden yet. They're in San Antonio. So hopefully the Spurs are on. They didn't great day. That's why. They're happy to be off. They're going home. The Broncos are on. They haven't gotten golden yet. They're in San Antonio, so hopefully the Spurs are on.

They didn't have the Spurs yet there. Hopefully maybe the rodeo was on. I don't know what they're doing. There was no reason to be nice in San Antonio then. Just be angry. Dirty. Also, this is another quote from him I have to give because it's asshole to the max here. He says, quote, my sister told me there was a bad storm when I was born and that that

was the reason there was a light about me. Who are you, fucking powder? What are you talking about? He's acting. He has like a Jesus complex. He really does. Now I can make forks all stick together. What the fuck are you talking about?

Unreal, man. Unbelievable. Father started beating him up around this time. Like I said, he started drinking heavily. Also, when he's 13 years old, he molested a young girl. Okay. Now he's no passes for anything. He already sucks.

This is not stealing candy. No, no, no. You've just molested a girl. Right there is why you're a piece of shit, sir. Now I don't like you. Right. Now you suck. I didn't care about the other shit.

Now you're a dickhead. He was 13, molested a young girl. No charges or anything. I think it was 1967 in San Antonio. I'm not sure what would be done about that. And he's a 13-year-old white kid. Yeah, they'd probably be like, well, you know, kids. And I don't think they knew how to deal with that back then the way they would now.

Boys will be boys. What the fuck are you talking about? At this time, when he's 13, he says that he began a sexual relationship with an older married woman. Hell yeah. Which, I don't know, now that we've seen all these teachers in action, that might be true. This is something that people, older people look for. I like how everybody says that's disgusting, but. No, when I was 13, I wouldn't have been disgusted.

I wouldn't have given two shits. No, I mean, I would have given a lot of shits. Yeah, I would have been happy, but not that we're saying that's okay. It's not okay. No, I don't want anybody touching my kids. No, I don't want. I know my head when I was 13 and I would have put it in anything that. I don't want anybody touching my kids. I know my head when I was 13 and I would have put it in anything that led to it. I don't want my 13

year old son banging away at some 30 year old marriage. No, I definitely don't want. I'm not going to tell him that he's an asshole if he tells me he did it willingly. I'm not going to call him a dick for doing it himself. I'm going to be like, that's fucking incredible dude. You're figuring it out. He basically

said that she did it to get back at her husband i'm gonna get back at my husband and molest a child that's not i don't know if that was yeah what i don't know if he would be jealous of that or if he would be just what the hell's wrong with you are you sick she was looking for a divorce she called things off after about six months and he was kind of uh you of devastated by that sort of a thing. Because it didn't break up the marriage? He tried getting back with her years later, actually, too, which we'll get into here. She's like, no, you're too old.

No, no. He said he didn't want anything to do with her. Anyway, we'll get into that in a moment. But he says that he became more distant from his family, not as cheerful after that. He says, quote, I knew I couldn't be a minister or a minister or an FBI agent, not after what I had done. And he claims of doing a lot more than what we absolutely know about. He claims even more. He claims to have been sexually abused in his teens by a church elder at that point.

Maybe that got him off the minister road here. I don't know. That could have happened. I don't know. He molested a young girl earlier. By my count, he's great for ministry. Yeah, that's perfect. Yeah, no shit. He's right on the path.

That's perfect. They had a recruiter out and they're like, listen, we've been keeping an eye on you. We like your outside jumper. You're done real great, kid. Unreal, man. You're 40 times impeccable. So also at this point, he starts a little bit of animal abuse. He kills a cat with a fork in front of his brother to prove a point.

What the fuck point? This is not the last time. Later on, because we're not going to have time to get into it later on, he also killed a girlfriend's cat with some nunchucks and killed a puppy by punching it to death. My goodness. He's not a great guy. He finds forks and nunchucks. Forks, nunchucks, his fists, anything he can. He started getting in anger with his sisters at this point.

His sisters would do things that he claimed, and later on they actually admitted to their mother on her deathbed that they actually did this. They would do things to themselves and then say that he did it to get him in trouble. What? And they thought it was, I don't know if they had some sadistic, sick way they liked to do. Yeah, they would choke themselves and pinch themselves and do things like that and have one would hit each other and then have the other one hit each other and then be like, he came in and did it. And then he said they would stand back and laugh at him

while his father beat the shit out of him with a belt. What a couple of sadistic bitches. Absolutely. So this made him, this didn't help his disposition. That'll make you loathe women. Well, that and a bunch of other things. And there's got to be something wrong with him, too. I mean, that's not enough to make you loathe women.

I had an aunt that used to, she was only nine years older than us, and she used to tie us up with bandanas and pretend she was some demonic character. And I don't hate women at all. I'm fine. It was fine. Yeah, but she didn't pinch herself and then have her dad knock the living shit out of you for it. No, but my grandmother would smack me if I told on her. She might get the hell out of here in her Italian accent and smack me. What am I going to do about it?

Okay, never mind. It's a bandana, you pussy. Yeah, that's what she did basically. She's like, I hid from Nazis. Get out of here. Okay, sorry. Never mind. That's hilarious.

That's a tough one, man. Now, his father also would, he said, embarrass him in public. He'd take him to bars and just insult him in front of his friends. What? In front of his dad's friends. They would just take turns picking on the kid. Oh, that's so weird. Which is really weird.

The whole time, though, her mother made it clear that he was her favorite, which is what I think the sisters resented in him, was that he was the favorite. And he's the baby, and they're like, let's get the baby, get the shit beat out of him. He joins the army in 1972 at age 17. Try to get some of this aggression out. This might not be a bad idea. He claims he was raped by a sergeant in the army. So I don't know if he's just a magnet for-

Everywhere he goes, the adults that he's trusting are ruining him. Which if he, this is a thing, and this is a true psychological thing, anybody that's studied any kind of abuse or anything like that knows this. There is an odd sixth sense that predators have. Yeah. And it's people, too. Predator people, they know, they know who to go after. They know. They know the ones that are damaged.

They know the ones that aren't going to tell. They know the ones that this has happened to before. They can tell. I don't know what it is. I don't know what part of evolution that is where that's something left over from an animal instinct or what the hell it is. But it's really, really bizarre. It's really bizarre. But it's the truth.

It is. People who get abused get abused just throughout life. It's amazing. They can sniff them out. It's wild. He gets out of the army and he goes back to the married woman. She comes to him, basically, and he said, oh, you had me as a boy, now you can have me as a man,

is what he told her, which was creepy as shit. And basically he said she got too clingy, and he couldn't deal with it, and he took off. He's like, never mind, right? So he meets a woman named Karen, who would become his wife later on. And I have to talk a bit about Karen before the crime and about his marriage to her because it really foreshadows everything and shows an escalation and just gives you an idea of his personality and what he's doing. He meets Karen in Washington, D.C. She worked at an outdoor equipment type place. She was climbing, mountain climbing, outdoorsy, camping equipment, that sort of thing. She said he came in, asked for some equipment they didn't have. She was smitten with him right away. He was a very good looking guy when he was younger. A good talker, long blonde hair, which in the 80s was okay. Long blonde hair, blue eyes. He's only 5'8". He's not a tall guy or anything like that, but he's charming and he's handsome back then. 5'8 ain't that short,

you dick. No, you'd love to be 5'8. You'd love to be 5'8. I understand. I am 5'8. You are not 5'8. I'm 5'8. I swear to God. With your shoes on.

Right. Exactly. I look really small, though. I look 5'8. Trust me. So, yeah, he just laid it on her, though. She liked him. He took off.

She told him another store that might carry it where he could go, and she got off of work, got in her car, and drove to that store to see if she could meet him there. That's how, like— She was really into it. She was into him. And she caught him. He was coming off the bus. And she was like, I would have given you a ride. Why did you come here?

Blah, blah, blah. And basically, he came back the next day, and he was wearing a suit and tie and was all dressed up and done up and primmed and proper. Got off the bus. Had already talked to her boss and had her boss clear it. Because normally she got a half hour for lunch. He cleared it with her boss that she got an hour today. And he's going to take her out to a nice dinner. And he had a bunch of money and he took her out to a fancy meal.

He always has money and clothes and connections that are completely unexplained. Weird. That we'd have no idea why or how he does this. He's an amazing con man. Manipulative con man. This guy makes Ted Bundy look like a so-so kind of con man. Like, he really does. It's incredible. What you cast, you goofy pussy. Yeah, that's what I mean.

He could just talk people into it. He didn't have to just trick them like that. At least Ted Bundy had a car, though. Yeah. And her parents liked him at first, too. Her parents were like, good. She was like a drinker and she'd smoke weed and shit like that. He was pretty straight edge. He didn't smoke weed. He wasn't a big drinker at the time, and they liked that.

They were like, yeah, here's a nice, clean-cut young man. Plus, he's a con man. He comes across really well. I'm sure every girl he's ever went out with, their mother and father liked him. Right. Just one of those things. Probably loved him. Yeah, so it was one of those things.

He just always had money, and she didn't understand why. They dated on and off, and he would just disappear for months at a time and not talk to her, and then he'd come back, and she'd take him back. Really? But this is throughout everything. He just disappears for months at a time. I can't get out of my house for 10 minutes without constant text. No.

Well, he knows he's a predator, and he knows who to go after. Gotcha. And this girl, for some reason, is... I don't know what it is, but she falls for this. And also, too, he lies to her a ton. He lies to her a ton. He tells her that he was a member of the Green Berets when he wasn't. He was just in the Army. Tells her that he was

on the Alaskan Mountain Rescue Team and showed her pictures of him, you know, pictures of himself in snowshoes. Like that's supposed to prove it. There you go. Said he owned an alarm system company called Neal Tech. Oh, my God. He even had a name for it.

Oh, yeah. He said they installed some of the White House security systems. Oh, Jesus. That's how high level it was. I mean, he was just whatever. He told her how sensitive he was to his family and he loved kids and blah, blah, blah. And he would romance her. He'd bring her flowers and champagne and big extravagant dinners. Like he was really, he's a con man and he's doing well.

She said he could fit into any crowd, walk in anywhere and be whatever he wanted to be. That's what she said. He was at home either in the woods or at a fancy gathering wearing an expensive suit and having an expensive haircut. That's a hell of a dating profile. Either one. That's not bad. Yeah.

As a dating profile, it's not bad until you get into the murder. Right. Which will be coming soon here. But there were some warning signs. He had some quirks. Like they'd be walking down the sidewalk or they'd be in a mall or something, just walking around anywhere where people gather. And he would see, Dickhead Bill would see a woman in like a short skirt or a tight sweater. And apparently he would mutter under his breath, slut and whore.

Yeah. Things like that. Yeah. Atta boy. Jimmy's kidding, by the way. Just so you know. Because we'll have we will get tweets like, why is Jimmy a misogynist? He's not a misogynist.

He's fucking kidding. The comments, they're always like under his breath. So she could hear what the women couldn't. But like every time he did, he would do it constantly. You go back and she would tell him to stop. He would he would stop for a minute and then a week later he'd be slut or bitch. She's saying things. He's got a problem with women.

We'll say here one night. This is sick. This is a he does this several times. He likes to test these women and he likes to – he's a manipulative lunatic. He's a sociopath and a psychopath, I guess. I don't know the exact definition of it, but it doesn't matter. I do know him. I just don't know him off the top of my head.

Yeah. One night he takes Karen, his wife here, to a romantic lodge out in the mountains for a getaway. He even got her some weed because he knew she liked it. He didn't smoke it, but he got her some Coke. Yeah. And, you know, had that for her. Champagne. It was going to be a nice night. You know, everything's going nice. The fire's going.

He's a very thoughtful man. He got her weed and Coke. And Coke. He's like, I know you like it, but he's trying to prime her for something is what he's doing. He's not being thoughtful at all. This is for his own. Everything he does is for his own uses. That's his bath bomb and his wine.

Absolutely. Phone rings. He said bath bomb and his wine. Absolutely. Phone rings. He said something quick and hangs up. He explained to her that who is there is a friend of his who's in the room next door. Okay. He wants his friend to come over and have sex with him. Oh, God. Basically, he's saying, let's have a threesome with two guys. Let's do this.

The devil's threesome? Good fuck. The devil, yeah. Karen said no. She said, I don't want anybody else. I just want, you know. I don't want to be a cock kebab. Thank you.

No, thank you. I'm fine with one person here. And so she got all mad at him, and then the phone rang again, and he just said no and slammed it down. Like, no, you're not. Can I come now? My dick's out. And he said no.

Later on, he would tell her, well, you passed the test. That's what she said. He said, quote, if you had said yes, our relationship would have been over. We'd have had a good time at first, but then it would have been over. What? So he just wanted her to do it so then he could abuse her for it, basically. Jesus. This is what he does.

They move to Houston, Texas. They get married after 10 days in Houston. Real quick. If you're in a relationship and they test you, they're an asshole. Leave. That's it. That's the end of the story. Perfect thing to say there. When they arrived, they leased an apartment in her name, obviously, and Bill said that he didn't want the women at the

rental office to know they were, quote, having relations. He's probably trying to fuck the woman at the rental office because that's all he does here. They got married after 10 days. I mean, it's ridiculous. And she even said, it's classic, got me away from my environment, my parents, my job, my friends, and I had nothing but him, and then he could do whatever he wants.

On their wedding night, he wanted to play a game where they tell each other their deepest, darkest sexual secrets and all that sort of thing. Don't do that either. Nobody wants to know the number. Nobody wants to know any of this. He asked her if she'd ever slept with a married man she said yes and she's regarded it ever since and he got really mad and choked her and threw her down on the ground choking her and yelling at her on the floor well you asked dude that's the same as going through somebody's phone if you're looking for a problem you're looking to start an argument don't ask those questions her, calling her a whore.

After this, too, the sex had changed. Like now he was just like he was mean. He would say, quote, she said, quote, after that it was pain is good and it's good when it hurts and stuff like that. No, it's not. Jesus Christ. After that, they leave. His idea is they want to move up and down the East Coast and just drive up and down and see where they like and move somewhere. You're with a criminal.

That's what that means. Yeah. She was into it. She thought it was adventurous and fun. No, it's not adventurous. He's running from something. So they go up and down the East Coast for eight months. They settle in Anatock, Tennessee.

And then Bill leaves when they're in Tennessee. He takes off and says he has to go to Texas to help his mother. His father had had a heart attack and they needed to sell their home. And he said he was going to go to Texas, help his mother prepare their home in San Antonio for sale. He said, I'll be back in three weeks. He's gone for eight months. Eight months. And she just sticks around?

She sticks around. What? Yeah, I'm here. And they talk on the phone. She'd hear a woman in the background talking and shit. And he's like, yeah, don't worry about that. Don't worry about that. I'm definitely not having sex for eight months.

No, definitely not. Now, also, too, at his request, at Dickhead Bill's request, he had a neighbor and her husband literally keep tabs, a notebook, like they're investigators, keeping track of someone's comings and goings. At her house. At their apartment to keep track of Karen. That's vile. Yeah. A seno pad with everything, who she'd been with, where she'd been, all this stuff. They felt bad and eventually told her.

You've got somebody else stalking her for him. They felt bad and eventually told Karen. And they said, well, he said that he couldn't trust you and he didn't know what you were doing. It's like, why'd you? But he could talk to strangers that live across the hall and is stalking his girlfriend. Like, that's something. What kind of people are they? They're like, sure, we'll do it.

What? You'll spy on someone? He sells all their belongings. She comes home from work one day. All of her shit's gone. Wow. Everything. All of her expensive, like climbing gear, all that, all gone.

Sold it for just bare minimum, whatever, and said, we're going to live in a van. We're living in a van, and then we're going to move to Colorado in a few months. And she was like- And she said, okay. Okay. So they live in a van. This woman is a saint. So they live in a van, and after a few months of living in a van, which is insane, he just

decides, I want a divorce now. I want a divorce. I don't want you anymore. This econoline is not doing it. You have till the end of the month to get out of the van. That's literally what he said. I'm not kidding. That's an actual thing that happens. You're evicting me from an econoline? What are you doing? So that was December

1st, 85. The divorce was final before the new year. That's how fast they got this done. She really put everything out for him. How can you want a divorce from that woman? It's insane. He ends up, he is all over the place. He's married four times, by the way.

That's the first wife. He then has a girlfriend named Karen Boxer, another Karen. They move out to Denver. He gets a job with an alarm company. He's still trying to get money from the first Karen in Virginia. He hears that her parents died and that she'll be getting a bunch of money. So he's calling her with crazy sob stories. Once he said the mafia was after him.

He said they were going to kill him if he didn't pay them back. All this shit. Basically just trying to guilt her into it. He's saying, if you don't give me the money, I'm going to die. And then he wouldn't die. And then a month later, he'd have another story where he needed more money. And he's also about to die. And he's about to die.

Also, at this point, he becomes a suspect in a rape and murder of a girl abducted from a gas station in upstate New York, which is a thing he's talked to and questioned by the FBI several times and eventually not arrested. I don't think they ever made an arrest in the case. So he was a suspect in that, though, which isn't great. I've never been. I've never been a suspect in anything. Never been a suspect by the FBI in an abduction, rape, and murder. Never happened. Just never happened.

I mean, it does happen. It happens to some people all the time, yeah. But not several times. Right, no. They talk to you once and go, okay, that's not the guy. And then they keep moving on. He marries Karen Boxer in Alaska. They live in Alaska for a while.

How does he get around? I don't know. He cons everybody. This is – wait until you see the plates this man is spinning. We have to bust through it quick here. The license plates. It's amazing. Yeah, the license plates.

They move to Virginia from Alaska. They also – they move up to Clifton Park, New York, which is why he got questioned for the rape because he was in the area, the rape and murder up there. They separate in 1990. The second Karen number two and Dickhead Dickhead Bill separate. He takes nine thousand dollars in cash advances from her credit cards and fifteen hundred dollars from her savings account. This robs it from her and moves to Denverver colorado where he begins dating a 19 year old stripper named jennifer perfect he and she said like everyone was so charmed by him in the strip club everyone wanted all the girls wanted to talk to him in a strip club he's charming women

he came up to her this is how he got her to go out with him and he said all the all the other she said all the other guys would just come up and ask you here's some money if you'll fuck me in the back room or in my car or whatever he came came up and had $500 in singles and put them on the table and said, I'd like to take you out on a proper date. So that was his approach. Well, he was smart. He saw how the other guys did it and that didn't work. So he said, I'm going to treat you like a lady.

And that's what you want, apparently. With singles. With singles. Because she is a stripper. Right. He doesn't know what she wants. Either we'll go out on a proper date or you can just stand on that stage for the next, I don't know, however long it takes to get rid of 500 singles.

Either way, this big block of singles is catnip to this girl and I know it. That's what he's saying. Either way, I'm going to heave this single brick at you. It's insanity, man. So they're together, right? She moves in with him after two days of dating. They move in together. One night, a gay friend of hers asked her to go out. A gay guy. So she

knows she's not allowed to go out with women or with other men or anything like that, but she figured a gay dude would be fine. You know what I mean? Of course. It's no big deal. He's clearly not trying to fuck her. Yeah, but when she got home, dickhead Bill had packed up all of her stuff in two garbage bags and was kicking her out. And also,

by the way, she just found out she was pregnant. She's 19 years old, an ex-stripper, pregnant with this asshole's baby and all of her shit in a garbage bag. Unbelievable, man. He questioned her. He drove her to his office where he worked, a place called Dynamic Control, put a chair in the middle of the room like an interrogation set up and interrogated her about the whole thing.

What? Made her go through an entire list of people she'd slept with all the way through high school. You don't want that. No, absolutely. Threw out her yearbooks and things like that. Would yell at her, don't you know this hurts me? And say shit like that. He's opening the yearbook and just pointing, what about this guy?

That's literally what he's doing. He threw him out because he couldn't take it anymore. She was terrified, this poor girl. It's the worst game of guess whoever. It's the worst. It really is. So he's being such an asshole that she's got to marry him, obviously. Because she's pregnant and scared at 19.

No. Oh, she's pregnant and scared at 19. And if she was a stripper at 19, too, no offense. I know some girls just do it for some extra money. A lot of them do it because they've had issues in the past and terrible upbringings and things like that. And they're comfortable with their clothes off in front of disgusting middle-aged men because they had that issue happen to them when they were younger, which is sad as fuck. At least his dick isn't out is what they're thinking the whole time. Absolutely. At least I'm in control of this.

If I say one word, a big giant guy will come and throw this fucking guy out. So that's what it is too. So they have a daughter on July 24th, 1993. He wasn't there. She called him when she went into labor. And he said, God damn it, I'm working and hung up on her. So he was at work. He showed up at 10 o'clock that night.

This was from like 9 in the morning. And she still hadn't delivered yet. They were still going, whatever. And so he just went to a bar. And he didn't come back the rest of the night. Next morning he came and picked them up from the hospital and took them home that was i had two opportunities to do that and i didn't do it yeah awful took her to a swingers club oh my god where he you know she was uncomfortable and and he had uh like blindfolded her and said that oh no no

it's just me and you and had some other guy oh no she freaked out in the middle of it and you know that caused a big thing with her that's not gentlemanly it was horrible yeah jennifer started telling her sister about it because they had a baby like i said the baby girl and she said the baby girl always loved tub time and then one night dickhead bill was watching her and the next day the baby wouldn't get in the tub without screaming and crying and so she was she was you know worried that he was molesting the baby as well. It's ridiculous. I hate those words to you, Heather. It's horrific.

So finally, May 95, Jennifer and the baby leave Dickhead Bill. Thank God. Right around that time, his mother dies of cancer. Then also, too, they get divorced here. He and Jennifer get divorced, and he has no contact with the baby after that. Of course not. Does not give a shit. Why would he?

Meets a woman named Rebecca Hulberton. Okay. Okay, this is, now he's been divorced four times already. This is this woman here. Rebecca, he meets her at a party. He moves in with her into a condo. They live together for two years. While they're living together, he steals about $60,000 from her.

Jesus. Yeah. Neil, at this point here after the divorce and when they first get married, he's unemployed. He's $51,000 in debt, and he's stealing money from this woman. He's stealing money from Rebecca, and she finds out about it. She knows he's stealing money, and she's making plans to kick him out of the house and get the hell away from this guy, basically, because he's no good. He's not doing anything, and he's stealing all our money. Right.

During this time, he meets another woman named Candace Walters that he's also carrying on a relationship with and stealing money from her also. Obviously. He's trying—the Walters woman, she tries to find out about him, tries to find out anything. He said he had homes in Las Vegas and Denver but never gave the address or anything like that. He took a bunch of money from her, thousands of dollars. She made him sign a promissory note for the money and threatened to expose him to his girlfriend and even the police if he doesn't pay her back. She was trying to have strong arms, this guy.

The way the prosecutor put it, rather than being exposed for the person he really was, he came up with a plan. Oh, no. And his plan is, okay, on June 30th. Candace, Candace, Candace. June 30th, 1998, he does a little shopping in the morning. Okay. He buys lava soap.

Yep. Four eye bolts. Yep. I'm sure bolts. Yep. Nylon rope, duct tape, and also a seven and a half pound splitting maul. Oh, God. You know what a splitting maul is?

It's an ax that has a flat side on the back, not a double-sided ax. One ax, it's for splitting wood. Right. So he gets one of those also. You can hammer the back through shit or- Yeah. Right. Yeah.

And the condo he was sharing with Hulbert, and they were doing renovations, the carpeting had all been removed from the hallways, and there was butcher paper covering all the windows and glass in the house because they were painting and doing all sorts of shit like that. Now, Neil returns home from his shopping trip. He places a chair in the middle of the living room, which we know is a bad sign. Yeah. And he invites Rebecca into the room. And then he plays some Huey Lewis in the news like American Psycho because that's what he

hit him with too. Yeah. This is more like less American Psycho, more Reservoir Dogs type of thing here. This is rough here. He tells her, she comes into the room, she's wearing a bathrobe. He tells her that he had been telling her, I have a surprise for you, I have a surprise for you. And he had said that, and she thought she meant he's going to repay him because he'd been lying to everyone saying that he had a settlement that he just won for $52 million. And he had all this money coming in.

He's paying everybody back. And he's going to buy everybody houses. And he's just, everything's perfect and happy, right? He doesn't know how much $52 million goes. That doesn't go. You can't buy all of the people you owe money to houses. Well, you probably can. You just won't have anything left.

You won't have a lot left. But he's saying, you know, these couple people here. He's saying, so she comes in thinking she's going to get the money. He had her that morning write out checks for more than $55,000 to pay back her creditors, saying you'll have the money in there. Don't worry about it. And then he calls her in the room and says, sit down. I have a surprise for you. So she's like, oh, my money's coming. This is great.

In his words, he said that she was filled with joy and happiness. He opens a bottle of champagne to celebrate, to celebrate Hulberton's, you know, she's getting out of debt. This is going to be great. He puts a briefcase on her lap and says, put your hands on it, saying that, you know, this is where the money is basically. And she's very excited. She, he does it. She, he covers her head with a blanket so she couldn't see like making it like it's a big surprise. Oh my God. And then he takes the maul and he hits her from behind

several times with the back part of the maul, the hammer part of the maul, several times brought the weapon down. The prosecutor said, quote, with such force that it completely caved in the back of her skull, sending skull fragments into her brain and gouging out a two-inch piece of skull that went flying across the room.

Holy shit. Yes, absolutely fucking brutal. That's not the worst thing he did to her then. He then wrapped her like a mummy in plastic and put her against the wall. Okay? That's not it. Okay? Now, the day after he killed her, he goes to Candace Walters.

This is the woman we discussed before who was threatening him. She was working as a bartender on the Sheraton. He told her the same bullshit. He told her he was a hitman for the mob and all this. He had all these stories. I'm a black belt. I'm a hitman. He's just full of shit, basically.

Everything except for I'm a piece of shit, which is what he really is. He said that he was a hitman, and there was an old mob guy that he was supposed to kill once but didn't kill the guy. So now the guy died and left him all his money and his will. That's where he's getting $52 million. He's good at this. He's good at this. He said that he's going to get custody of his daughter now. He paid off his ex-wife to get custody of his daughter.

Everything's great. He's going to pay her back. wife to get custody of his daughter. Everything's great. He's going to pay her back. And he told her, Candace, that she would, quote, be paid handsomely for maintaining her silence about his former, you know, everything. His former, his hitman past. Because I'm a hitman.

I don't need everybody knowing that. She was, yeah, he was going to give her $100,000 and they were going to fly to Vegas. He said he had a brand new Toyota 4Runner for her. He's going to buy her a house. He's got a giant thing. This whole big bullshit. It's 2.5 million is what he said he was going to have waiting for him there to do all this. Even showed her pictures of houses, saying, this is my house in Vegas.

It's a giant mansion. Isn't it beautiful? Shows up, picks her up, takes her to his townhouse, the one that we were just visiting. He said that the 4unner had been delivered, but she went in the door, and because everything was covered, she couldn't see everything, and apparently didn't see the blood everywhere, didn't see the spatter, didn't even see the black plastic-wrapped dead body, just feet from her, has her sit in the chair in the middle of the room.

She's wearing a white sundress, just waiting for her surprise. She didn't want to be covered with a blanket because she said she didn't want her hair messed up for the trip. That's how innocent this girl was to this whole thing, this poor woman. She's 19. Yeah, he disappears. No, this woman is 48. Oh.

The 19 is Jennifer, the ex-wife. He comes back. He leaves the room, comes back with the mall, and hits her with the blade side of the mall four times and just decimates her, obviously. That wasn't enough for him, though. She's dead, but he decided he needed to urinate on her head and shoulders also. I know you're laughing out of uncomfort because you have your hands over your head. Oh, my God. What?

I don't even know what to say about that. Then he put her body next to rebecca put a sheet over it the next day he has another woman that he knows named suzanne and he's hanging out with her roommate a woman named beth is in quotes yeah he was sleeping with beth basically uh he says he's taking suzanne on a trip to vegas to get her a job yeah so he said first he had a surprise for beth though and he come to my townhouse i'm going to show you this great surprise for beth i can't wait pulls into the garage shuts the garage door she said that quote he explained it would be more or less like a dress rehearsal that he wanted me

to be blindfolded and he wanted to put duct tape around my mouth because that's how he was going to he was going to bring beth in the house to see her surprise you don't need duct tape over your mouth first of all blindfold is one thing that's funny her surprise. You don't need duct tape over your mouth for a second. Blindfold is one thing. That's funny. That can be fun. Right. But not duct tape. That's not fun anymore.

I don't need you to talk. She said he just seemed very excited, and he was all excited, had her take off her glasses, put the bath towel around her eyes, and for a blindfold, did the whole thing. He put duct tape over her mouth, everything, right? Takes her through the garage, leads her inside. He even picked up his cat. He had a cat. And he said, oh, I want you to meet my cat.

I'm going to get my cat a treat and all that shit. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Of course he's got a cat. She said it didn't feel right. Yeah. They reached a room. He turned her around and told her to sit down. The seat was, you know, pushed her all the way down.

She realized she was sitting on a mattress, not a chair at that point. The mattress is on the floor? Yes. There's no bed frame. There's no bed frame. There's no bed frame. Those are creeps. And then he ties her up. Oh, my God.

Also ties her up. She's spread eagle on her back. This is a great surprise. Yeah, this is horrible. She says that she's crying, saying, I don't want to be tied up and all that sort of thing. She said he opened up her blouse, cut off her bra and cut off her pants and underwear with a knife. Horrible, right? So she's tied up and blindfolded.

And he takes the blindfold off of her. And he had put something on her stomach and said, look at that. And it was a piece of human skull. He just wanted to show it to her just to say, look what I got there. What? Look what I got there. That's literally what it was. And then covered her back up again

and warned that if she screamed, he would kill her. Okay. So at this point, she's tied up. He goes to get somebody else. What? He's bringing somebody else into the scenario. A woman named Angela Freit is now in the, or Feet is into the mix here, a 28-year-old woman.

He brings her in to show her a surprise, which he had been telling her, he's getting all this money, he's going to help her. She thought it was a new house for her, which is insane. The surprise is a naked woman tied up? Yeah. So he's going to get her. But before he does that, he is tormenting this woman. She's tied up.

Suzanne, he showed her the skull. He then goes over to the bodies, lifted up the blanket on the bodies and held up a leg. Oh, my God. And said things like that. And he was kicking the bodies bodies, lifted up the blanket on the bodies and held up a leg and said things like that. He was kicking the bodies like, hey, look at this. He was just showing her how little human life meant to him. Obviously, she thought she was going to die at this point. He tapes her mouth

closed again. She said he fondled her a bit but said that there wasn't any time for that right now because he's got other things to do. She could hear people upstairs uh coming in so he covers her head to toe in a blanket and leaves the room because there's other people there so she's tied up she has the blanket on she can hear whispering yeah then she hears duct tape being pulled off the roll oh god and she and she hears neil say can you get out of that and uh that's that's how she's hearing this, like basically exactly what happened to her.

She's hearing it again. She hears a woman answer him. Oh, my God. So she knows there's another person being tied up. She knows it's Angela Feet. She hears the voice. Can you get out of that? Can you trust her?

Yeah. It's unreal. He ties Angela up. Angela looks over at Suzanne and says, you know, we're not getting out of here alive, are we? And Neil just kept, you know, he was talking, like having a conversation about, like, the weather and shit like that. It's unreal. He gave Suzanne a drag of her cigarette, stuff like that, so you want a drag of the cigarette. So they're just, like, sitting here in this weird holding pattern.

He gets Suzanne tied up again, has her bound, has the whole deal. He has Angie sitting in a plastic patio chair next to the mattress as the Angela woman here. She doesn't – Suzanne can't see her exactly. She's kind of behind her peripheral vision here. And then he does see, what she does see is Neil with the mall raised above him. And she said she saw him hit Angie. Oh, my God. And she said that, you know, she heard Angie bleed out on the floor.

My God. She heard blood pouring out and that sort of thing. So then there are now three dead women in the room. Yes. Three dead women and an alive one. So he forces her to perform oral sex on him and he rapes her. Yes. Obviously.

Of course. He's with her the whole day. He takes her back to her apartment where her roommate is one of his girlfriends, Beth. He says that he's going to tell Beth everything and he's going to tell her what happened. Tell her what? Tell her there's three dead chicks and you just raped me? That's what he's going to tell her. She's like, cool.

That's what we'll do. Yeah. So he takes her over there. He tells them not to do anything. He actually leaves the apartment, leaves them there alone. He's so trusting. First, he took all their phones. He took all the phones out of the house, leaves the apartment, leaves them there alone. He's so trusting. First, he took all their phones. He took all the phones out of the house, leaves the house.

Suzanne said she was trying to scramble and get her things to leave, and he came back. He allowed them to call one of their male friends to come over and met him at the door with a gun in his face and said, get in here. And, you know, if you leave, it's going to be bad for them, basically. And so he came in. He ended up leaving and trusting that they wouldn't say anything. Suzanne tells Beth everything that happened. Of course. So they called, you know, 911 because they're not stupid.

Right. And they end up finding the bodies and they end up, obviously, they know who did it. They find Neil and they arrest Neil. And he is 100 percent. How did they call the police? They had it. Beth had a cell phone hidden somewhere. All right.

Beth had a cell phone and Beth had to call it. And also the guy who came over also had a cell phone. Oh, thank God. He's he and he left all three of them in the apartment together, trusting they would be fine. Apparently he had. He figured he had such a hold over these people that it was it was fine. He goes to court for this. First of all, he confesses first to a news reporter for two hours and then gives a seven and a half hour detailed confession to police about the whole thing.

He also confesses to killing 500 people, he said, which they don't believe at all. They think this is all. There might be other people. Who knows? Because he disappears for months. Who knows? This is what I mean when you hear about these interstate killings. Who knows how many bodies are laying on the roadside?

We have no goddamn idea. He decides he's going to plead guilty right away. He says he sure as hell did do it. He decides also, because this is a big murder trial, and so you want a lawyer with the most experience, who's got more experience than Dickhead Bill himself? Not a lawyer at all. He chose to represent himself. He's going to represent himself.

He tells the judge he's guilty without a doubt. During the trial process, because he represented himself, he gets special considerations in jail, extra hours in the library. He gets a VCR and a TV so he can watch the tape of his confession. He's allowed to keep all sorts of writing materials and things that other prisoners aren't allowed to have. He's allowed to have a sorts of writing materials and things that the other prisoners aren't allowed to have. He's allowed to have a cell phone that he can call 10 minutes a day on to call his

witnesses, like he says, but instead what he's calling is his girlfriend in Arizona. He's got a new girlfriend in Arizona who's like a trust fund baby and she says that there's lies or the lies are in the press and it's all bullshit and she is supporting him. He's got her all manipulated up, too.

Yeah. He has a wedding band on at one point before the sentencing and the trial start. He's got a wedding band on, and he's mad because he called a store to ask about some wedding thing, and they didn't treat him right. Wow. So he was all pissed off and complaining to the press about that, that I'm in here for triple murder and rape and I'm not being treated like a valuable customer. They said they will not make my cake. Yeah. He says that he's fighting with his defense counsel more than the prosecution because they don't want him to pull his plea back and all this sort of thing.

So anyway, he doesn't. He's found guilty because he pled guilty. On September 20th, 1999, he represents himself before a panel that will decide whether he's getting the death penalty or not. That's what I was going to say. This is a bad idea in Colorado. You don't do that in Colorado. It's his job to present the mitigating factors, and he doesn't find many because he tries to say that he was abused as a child and sexual abuse and stuff like that. But no, sorry, not going to fly. What you did was horrible.

He's trying to compare himself to another guy who got let off, who had like a horrific, horrific childhood where his mother burned him with cigarettes. And his father raped him when he was five and all this type of shit. Like, that's not the same upbringing, dude. Like, they took mercy on that guy because he was really screwed up. You're just a scumbag. Right. him up for him, dude. Like, they took mercy on that guy because he was really screwed up.

You're just a scumbag. Right. You know? And you're bitching in the press because a cake maker won't chop up the wife figurine on top of the cake. Yeah, exactly. He's got money in jail. Yeah. By the way, his new girlfriend was from Phoenix, and she would go up there to see him.

Haircuts cost $6. He would pay in cash and leave the rest of the $20 as he'd give a $20 and say, keep the rest as a tip. How does he have so much? She's giving him money. Wow. She's putting money in his face. She's putting so much20. He'd give a $20 and say, keep the rest as a tip. How does he have so much? She's giving him money. She's putting money in his face. She's putting so much in there, he can spend $20 on a haircut. Yeah.

He says in court that he's a changed man and Jesus and Jesus. And I want to live, he says, so I can zealously serve Jesus in prison. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All that bullshit. He does not cross-examine the rape victim. Suzanne testifies and she tells it all. Really? Oh, yeah.

She tells it all. And he doesn't cross-examine anything. No, because he knows it's going to not look good for him. Yeah, that's true. The court sees the confession of his police confession. They also hear everything that he did. They see the photos. They sentence him to death.

Good. Death penalty for each woman killed wow is what he gets so three death penalties for whatever that's worth it really is it's hard to shake except in 2003 yeah uh february of 2003 the colorado supreme court rules that the colorado's use of a three judge panel for the penalty phase was not constitutional and they commute his sentence to life in prison. Without though, right? Without the possibility. He's in life in prison. And that is it.

He's there. Thank God. Done. Dickhead Bill Cody can go and what a horrible person. I hate that he chose that nickname because while Bill Cody was like, he's a big deal in Colorado. Granted, I'm sure he was a piece of shit. But yeah, I don't know if he was this big of a piece of shit.

There was no TNZ or Wikipedia back then. If you want to maybe get a hold of Dickhead Bill Cody, you can. Oh, no. You can get a hold of this asshole. If you want to write him, call him an asshole. I don't care. 303-84, address is cdoc-csp, P.O. Box 777, Canyon City, Colorado, zip code 81215. He has a prisoner pal profile saying, let's see here. He said that he's, I am very open-minded, easygoing, and young at heart.

And I open minds. Yeah, I enjoy new things and it seemed and it seems laughing at myself is more laughing at myself more as one of them wow what an asshole laughing you're a fucking murderer canyon city is beautiful by the way that the area around it that's where they put not where he is that's where they put the prison i doubt his cell is pretty no i hope it's fucking terrible and i hope it's hot and guys there's so much more that he did like this would have i know you guys don't like two partners everyone bitches about the two partners

could go so long we could have gone three parts because there's so much here we could have done three parts we could have really gotten into his all of the scams he pulled and all of the shit he pulled on all these other women but it was horrible enough and if you like what you heard yeah I heard the story but if you like how we

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I'm assuming that's a name of an organization of some sort. I don't know. Amanda Gibson. Amy. She upped her donation. Amy A-M-M- of some sort. I don't know. Amanda Gibson. Sounds like a wee thing. Amy, she upped her donation. Amy, A-M-M-I-E. I don't know. Oh, yeah.

Cool. I forget her last name. Amy Keller. Yeah, Keller. Keller. Boom. Got it. You gotcha.

Danielle Nishimi. Jason Davis. Mary Zellers. Hattie Jennings. Colin Cameron. He's a real estate agent in Pennsylvania. So if you're in Gettysburg, or I think it's Gettysburg, or somewhere near there, find the man and buy a house from him. Phil Cantwell, Elizabeth Freeman, Leah with no last name, Taylor Hunsaker, or Hunsacker, whatever.

It doesn't matter. Greg Baxter, Jason from New Mexico, Andrew Wiegand, Kelly Mack, Garrett Schaefer, Alexandra Gia, Melissa Schmaltz, Jason Bogue in Texas is a fantastic man. Sarah Strobin, Zachariah Stone, Paul Tripp, Catherine Hinman, and Christopher Much. That is a lot of people, and I can't thank you guys enough for fucking doing it. You are our lifeblood. Thank you, guys. For real. You guys are why we do it, and you're supporting this through every means you can.

And that makes us beholden to you. Because if we have a sponsor that doesn't like our content or whatever, we just go, all right, go the fuck away then. You know what? Because our listeners take care of us, and we do the show for them. And that's what it is. And you guys make that possible. So if you don't like anything we do, let us know, and we'll do our best to change that.

Unless it's pronunciations. You can eat shit on the pronunciations. I think I nailed every one of these names. If your town mattered, I'd know how to pronounce it. If I'd ever heard it said before, I'd know how to pronounce it. But that, you want to give them your social media real quick? At Whisman Sucks, W-H-I-S-M-A-N Sucks on Twitter, Instagram, and Snapchat. Follow me, tweet at me.

Fucking be involved because we love it. Yeah, it's good. And I am at Jimmy P is funny. You can reach me there. Do whatever you want. Get real creative and try to spell my last name. Just copy and paste it from the show description if you want to be smart love it. Yeah, it's good. And I'm at Jimmy P is funny. You can reach me there, do whatever you want, get real creative and try to spell my last name. Just copy and paste it

from the show description if you want to be smart about it. But that is our show, guys. Wow, it was a wild one. Fucking crazy. Can't wait for the next one. How about you? We need to cleanse.

Yeah, we need to cleanse. And next week, I'll have like a middle-aged man being murdered, maybe something like that. Not three poor women who had nothing, who had no reason to be murdered whatsoever.

But until next week, guys, thank you so much. It's been our pleasure. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of part one and watching along with part two as it airs on max starting April 21st.

Bye bye. The official Jinx podcast. Listen on max or wherever you get your podcasts.