Small Town Murder - #185 - A Double Murder In Stereo Sound in Middletown, Connecticut

Episode Date: August 20, 2020

This week, in Middletown, Connecticut, when a horrible scene, including two brutally murdered people, is discovered in a house, investigators try to put it all together, and get a huge boost from one piece of evidence, an actual audio recording of the murder, made without the knowledge of the killers. From this tape, a wild, crazy & almost unbelievable tale emerges! So much crazy!! Along the way, we find out that break ups can be messy, that there is such a thing as being too nice to your ex, and that when you shoot, and horrifically stab two people, you should make sure that nothing in the room is recording audio! Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman New episodes every Thursday! Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com & use our email: [e-mail] Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports! Follow us on... twitter.com/@murdersmall facebook.com/smalltownpod instagram.com/smalltownmurder Also, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts# See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Middletown, Connecticut, a horrific double murder goes from a whodunit to a we know exactly whodunit with one incredible piece of evidence, an audio recording made without the killer's knowledge.

Welcome to Small Town Murder. hello everybody and welcome back to small town murder yay oh yay indeed jimmy yay indeed my name is james petrogallo i'm here with my co-host i'm jimmy wissman thank you folks so much for joining us again on another wild, crazy, just insane edition of Small Town Murder. Last week's episode, obviously, was insane. If you missed it, you probably want to go back and check that one out and buckle up for it. It's a

wild one. This week, this is just a crazy case. This is one of those where I'm like, how is this not one of the most famous cases ever? Because it's just so insane and, you know, it's not really been talked about very much. So we're going to do it ourselves here. So thank you for hanging out with us. And thank you, of course, if you've done anything for us this week,

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just a bunch of wild stuff there. So please check that out. Also check out PS. I hate this movie on Fridays where I get to pick the movie this week and it won't be romantic probably. That's not fair. Which is great.

Yeah, so every once in a while it's to keep me from losing my mind. The crocodile that made you love story. I'm thinking about doing Splash

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bonus all of the small town murder bonus this week's small town murder bonus will be about females that get executed because it's not normal that doesn't happen too often so it's going to be like kind of uh yeah it's ladies night i guess i don't know so it's about female executions and like who they what you have to do as a woman to get executed and you know there's a we'll check it out we'll see what's going on there and last meals yeah i'm i'm anxious to to compare last meals of men and women would they be different yeah are they eating light you know what i mean i'm very curious to see so about the figure we're gonna find out about that that's it's a cheap joke and we're gonna make them no i'm just kidding i'm joking it's fine so fit in the gurney that's what i mean i don't want to be nice and well

actually you try to if you were getting hung you'd want to gain weight yeah otherwise you just dangle so uh the the heavier ones have a smaller fall is that right no heavier ones their neck breaks yeah there's a smaller yeah we did the whole chart the one time on the hanging thing on one of the episodes so check that out also crime and sports bonus episode this week is the minnesota vikings love boat scandal so good so that's going to be gross so check So check that out. Also, Crime and Sports bonus episode this week is the Minnesota Vikings love boat scandal. So good. So that's going to be gross. So check all of that out.

It's patreon.com slash crime and sports. And Jimmy will also mispronounce your name as a producer. And if you want to just give us a couple bucks on PayPal for your own karma so you feel good, you can just do that on PayPal. Use our email address, crimeandsports at gmail.com. Quickly, the disclaimer disclaimer it's a comedy show we talk about murder of course it's called small town murder obviously we talk about murder

but it is a comedy show nothing's made up we're not making something up so it's more entertaining or funny the point is to find crazy stories right where the murder itself isn't the funny part obviously no one's like and then the head was removed from the body and then we go, oh my God, that's amazing. There's no jokes to be made about that. But lots of stuff around murders are crazy. So crazy that someone's decided to kill somebody else or multiple people. That's a crazy thing to do. What's going on there?

How do we get there? That's where the jokes are, everybody. So if that sounds good to you, we are going to have a blast, even with a dark subject. If not, if you don't like it then i understand that but what we try to do is we go out of our way not to make fun of the victims or the victims families because we're assholes but we're not scumbags there it is that's how it works so if that sounds good to you damn it i think it's time to sit back clear the lungs and shout shut up and give me murder. Let's do it. Let's go on a trip, Jimmy.

Yes. What do you say? I'd like that. We're coming back across the country. We did Oregon. We did Illinois. Right. And now we're going all the way to the East Coast to Connecticut.

Let's do this. Oh, baby. Going to Connecticut here. Nice place. That's nice. Connecticut's new. We always like Connecticut. It's a nice place.

We're going to Middletown, Connecticut. Sounds ritzy. It's kind of average. It's kind of of outside of hartford as we'll talk about it's not a little tiny town because it's kind of outside of a city it's a kind of a suburb and uh but it's small enough and the case is crazy enough or i don't really care excellent so good enough for me it's in central connecticut about 20 minutes outside of hartford about two two hours over to New York City there. And it's about 35 minutes down to Gulliford, which is our last Connecticut episode. Episode 129, all the way back in July of 2019. So over a year, man.

This is in Middlesex County, one of the zero zip codes, 06457, which is awesome. The motto here is Forest City. Yeah. Forest City. Okay. Or not as cool as Danbury, as we like to say. That's right, because we like Danbury better. Shout out to the mayor of Danbury who listens to the show.

So, yeah. History of this town, not of the show. History of this show. Well, let's talk about history of this town here. Well, it goes back far, but we'll start kind of around the Civil War. I'm not going to start too far back here. Civil War, there's a lot of people in this town involved

in the Civil War. As a matter of fact, General Joseph K. Mansfield was a Union General at Antietam, where he died in action in 1860. Yeah, he died there. Another casualty there at Antietam was Brig he died in action in 1860. Heroes. Yeah, he died there. Another casualty there at Antietam was Brigadier General George Taylor, who'd been educated here and lived here as well.

So there were a couple of prominent people here, ended up dying there. So also the Civil War song, Marching Through Georgia, which is, I assume, probably about Sherman going to the sea and burning everything in his path there, was written by Henry Clay Work, who was a Middletown resident as well. It's a lot of Civil War connections here. The city was also very active in the abolitionist movement as well. It was a hub of the Underground Railroad. How about that? As a matter of fact, yeah, this exact spot.

From that slave lady. Yeah, yes, exactly. Jimmy learned a lot about Harriet? As a matter of fact, yeah, this exact spot. From that slave lady. Yeah, yes, exactly. Jimmy learned a lot about Harriet Tubman a few episodes ago. So, yeah, which is crazy because this was like a slave trading center a couple hundred years before. Yeah, it was, actually. How about that? They made a real turnaround there in a couple hundred years.

So, it was also, Middletown was briefly the home of a major league baseball team. Which one? Bet you don't know that. It is the Middletown Mans briefly the home of a major league baseball team. Which one? Bet you don't know that. It is the Middletown Mansfields of the National Association, which was one of the kind of groups that they said, you know, ended up forming what we think of as the major leagues now. Middletown Mansfields. Mansfields. That's too many letters. It's after Joseph K. Mansfield, the general who died in Antietam.

That's a rough jersey. But this was in 1872. So the guy died 10 years before. So, you know, they're like, let's just, let's just, you know, we're going to eat it on the letters. It's going to cost us a lot to send this jersey and have it made. They're going to sew these things on. We're probably going to take a loss for a few years just on jerseys. Nobody gets their last name on the back of the jersey, all right?

We got too many letters on the front. We can't afford it. We're going numbers only on the back, like the Yankees, and then the front. You know, we may just go numbers only on front and back both. Fuck it. They know. They don't know who we are. We're the team without the name on it. They were a member of the National Association in 1872.

The team was organized by Ben Douglas Jr., who named the team after his great uncle, who was the general Mansfield there. They were managed by the catcher, John Clapp, whose nickname was Gata. Uh-huh. And sit there. Jesus. And they finished with a record of 5-19. They were managed by their catcher.

By their catcher, yeah. Back then, these teams would be managed most of the time by a player. By a player, really? Yeah, either by the owner of the team or by a player. Okay. That was it, because the players knew what they were doing. So it would be who's the old guy on the team who everybody looks up to. You're the fucking manager now.

It wasn't quite the same job back then. No? No. So in the early, kind of late 1800s, early, or late 1900s, early, sorry, late 1800s, early 1900s. It was very white before that. And that's when it kind of became the demographics changed there. It was very like kind of white and upper crusty. And then the Irish came in and then all of a sudden all the Italians came in, too, as immigrants to to work in the factories and farms and turn the whole fucking thing upside down.

A bunch of them came. Apparently, for some reason, Malili, Sicily, a lot of people came from this town to that town to here. So it was like a very like kind of a one big chunk of group of people in there. Apparently, that pissed people off a little bit. And then the Polish and the Germans were there, too. So, you know, people were getting different. By 1910, the population was up to 21,000 people there. That's awesome.

Except not a lot of black people. There was 53 black people out of 21,000 people. In the 1900s? That was in 1910. Wow. So not a lot. No. Not a lot there.

But later on in the century, it became more. And now it's kind of a little bit more, as we'll talk about, a little bit more diverse there. Wesleyan University is there. Oh, okay. So that's kind of a lot of the population itself is just college kids who live in one area. It's not the actual people. That's why the town with the population, it doesn't really matter because a lot of it's college kids here. people that's why the town with the population it doesn't really matter because a lot of its college kids here so uh two wesleyan professors in the early 1980s brought a small group of

cambodian refugees here in the early 1980s and then it they kind of sprung a cambodian community there so now there's like a cambodian community there and uh yeah it's interesting and also they have a tibetan community as well professors brought over some tibetan refugees and they started a tibetan little tibetan community too so yeah they have a hindu temple there as well so there's hindu people it's pretty diverse little town it's interesting yeah so uh they had all sorts of uh problems of course with the with weather as they always do floods uh 1927 and 1936 giant floods uh the great new england hurricane in 1938 as well and uh really fucked a lot of things up and businesses and trashed the main street and all that sort of thing as

weather and uh weather and fire back then really did a lot of damage. Connecticut's west of New York, correct? And north of? No. No? No. It's east of? It's on the ocean, isn't it? Yeah, it's Connecticut. It's stacked within Massachusetts.

All right. Got it. I know where it's at now. West of New York is Pennsylvania. And Ohio. So New York goes up at an angle. That's the fucking ocean. Or the Great Lake there.

That's what that is. Yeah, yeah. That's Lake Erie up in the other thing. I understand it now. Buffalo and between there and Canada there. I think I get it. Yeah. There's water on either thing. I understand it. Buffalo and between there and Canada there. So I think I get it. Yeah. There's water on either side.

He gets it. So in the 1950s, when roads were really improving and everybody had a car, they had a there was a highway here that separated Middletown from the river. And apparently that was good, except that the highway demolished historic neighborhoods, including a lot of buildings from the river and apparently that was good except that the highway highway demolished historic neighborhoods including a lot of buildings from the 1700s so that was kind of a time to go forward yeah that's the progress is difficult here so uh middle town kind of became a little bit shitty into the 60s and the 70s and the 80s kind of the northeast was just kind of downtrodden and the midwest as well the

rust belt those big cities and uh 1990s though it started coming back a little bit now and uh now it's it's uh they have uh they've torn down a lot of the old buildings rather than restoring them they kind of have some like new shiny buildings which is kind of boring if i'm being honest with you yeah san francisco yeah it's a great fucking example of that yeah use the old i mean i get it a brand new one that's 50 stories tall is impressive as fuck yeah a 30 story one next door built 100 years ago it's not as cool no but if you go you can make it that way it looks so much cooler though if you go to new york and let's say you were in new york in 1990 it didn't go back until now you'd go or this isn't even the same fucking city.

It's all made of glass. It sucks. The glass and steel. It sucks. The concrete buildings are amazing. The work is intricate. The details. The gargoyles and the details and the things under the crown.

It's craftsmanship. They put actual effort into that. That meant something. If it was a company, they'd say, well, we have to have a nice building because that represents our company well because also the tax rates were higher then so they'd have to invest in the company nowadays it's not like that anymore and they companies pay no fucking taxes so they're like let's put up the fucking cheapest glass this glass building that we fucking can that looks like shit and who cares right so that's uh square and we can go inside and get out of the rain that's it's energy efficient and all that

which is fine but it's more expensive to retrofit. But also your city loses its fucking soul. Right. And its character and everything else. Character is everything. There's a reason why Phoenix sucks. Right. Because it has no soul because everything's brand new and shitty and beige.

You know, that's why. Right. There's no color to it. That's why Boston's cool. There's a lot of old shit. You know what I mean? It's cool. I like it.

Super old. Yeah. Like the old neighborhood and shit. Yeah, all these brick-ass buildings with wood girders coming out of them. I like it. It's cool as fuck. I dig it, man. Also, a bunch of the farms that were left over, developers ended up buying, and that ended up becoming suburbs and shit like that.

So this is the typical kind of 70s, 80s, 90s growth here. Now, reviews of this town, not a lot of terrible ones, honestly. People like it here. Seems like a pretty decent little town. Here's a two-star review, but nobody really has any big, like, complaints. Listen to this. Quote, two stars, quote, high taxes and tough schools where everyone smokes and vapes in the bathrooms.

Oh, my. No chain stores and no parking on Main Street to go to their restaurants. I just picked everyone smokes. It was the picture like a kid in a leather jacket and a pompadour like, hey, hold on. Yeah. Old man. So and so is coming down the hall. Be careful.

You know, with a vape pen. Seems like that's the most genius thing ever for school kids. You know what I mean? Vape pens? Yeah. Oh, I wish we would have had that. Not that we are encouraging younger kids to use products. Just saying, it's so much easier to get away with that.

I would have been so stoned all day in high school. Because in my high school, you could smoke outside. Really? Like my first two years of high school. Oh, shit. And then you couldn't anymore. You're such an old man. But you could smoke outside really like my first two years of high school and then you couldn't anymore but you could like an old man smoke outside also the school is a piece of shit and they didn't care it was built on a swamp in between all these power lines you're getting cancer 14 different fucking ways because what you're smoking does not matter but i would

have i would have gotten so high if they had vape pens i would have been i wouldn't i wouldn't have made it to finish the 10th grade. I would have been fucking passed out. A Blue East cigarette would have saved my life. I smoked in the bathroom between every fucking class. Well, you know what? I should have done more

now that I think about it. I think about it now, I'm like, oh man, I was wasting, I should have tried less in high school. Honestly, if I knew my life would turn out like this,

like I'd have not a lot of success in my life until like my mid-30s and all that stuff like I and then like this would be my job right I wouldn't have tried at all I would have anyone would have said you're being lazy I would have said I'm biding my time motherfucker that's what I'm doing I'm biding my time I just have a lot of time to waste it's gonna be a while I'll eat eventually right now I like this hot I'm in the waiting room that That's it. I got to, you know. Damn it.

Too bad you can't predict the future. I would not have tried at all. I really, I mean, I tried a minimal amount anyway, but I would have done even less. That's what I'm saying. And I would have been happy. I probably wouldn't have worried about graduating. Dude, I sweated every day. I wanted to graduate so bad.

And I, because I would have been the first boy in the family to graduate high school, James. Yeah. Fucking high school. How embarrassing is that? That's classy, James. It's all class. We're such trash.

All class. And as soon as I did that, I was like, ain't nobody telling me shit. They're all dumber than me. Fuck them. I'm not going to college. That's stupid. Oh, man. I was like, I don't.

Yeah, I knew college was a... I didn't even know how to apply for that stuff. What do you even do? Who do you talk to about it? No idea. I was like, that's definitely not happening. You just go down and stay in line at the school? I'm mad I even thought about it for five seconds.

For what? What am I going to do? It doesn't help me. You're going to beg somebody for me to pay them money? Fuck that. What if I would have tried really hard and done well and went to college and all that? My life would have sucked. I would not have done this, which I like better.

This is what I like. Yeah, there's no way you would have done this. It this would have been bad so here's another two-star review quote they're not there are not that many jobs and hiring that are hiring you would have to go to the next town over just to find a decent job all right here's a three-star uh quote middletown is a very quiet community when i first moved here when i was eight there was not much for most people to do besides go to the movies however the, the last couple of years, they've renovated the Main Street area, which is now very popular and filled with amazing restaurants. Oh, my.

Overall, I do think Middletown is a great place to live. It's incredibly diverse, and I do believe the school system is great. If you discount the smoking kids in the bathroom. You can get through that. It's a safe and friendly place not only to grow up but also to settle down and raise a family. So, yeah. Another review complains about some potholes. That's the only complaint.

Great place. We have a lot of potholes that can be fixed and our senator isn't exactly the best. That's their review. I don't know. People in this town. Population 46,747. I said a good chunk of those are college kids they're kind of doing their own little little world here this is up 10 from 1990 male and female are averaged the age is a little bit uh it's exactly the same 37 so the only things

that are different are what to be expected with young people in town uh with any young people is married population is a little bit lower that sort any young people is married populations a little bit lower, that sort of shit. Never married rate is a little bit higher, less widows. It's, you know, normally,

you don't find a lot of 22 year old widows. It's tough. It's just sitting there. Oh, we got to look hard. He went off to the wall with a gleam in his eye. He said he was going to defeat the Kaiser. It was 1988.

He had no idea. He just ended up at Kaiser Permanente. He was very confused. No idea what happened. So, yeah, it's pretty average other than that. There's a few more single people, like I said. Race of this town, and a half percent white it's normally 61 and a half percent 13 black the national average is 12.3 percent so they're pretty

close to averages here 5.6 percent asian 5.3 percent is the norm it's almost like it's like we need a couple more asians let's go how do we recruit asian families we're we got we're at four percent we got to even this fucking thing out it's very weird and then uh hispanic 9.2 percent which is a little less so it's a few more white people few less hispanic people otherwise everything is kind of the way everywhere else yeah reflective of the rest of the country in general so uh religion in this town what you get with a lot of kids a little lower 42.3 percent religious 28.5 percent of the people here are catholic catholics are as we know the baptists of the north we know that for a fact 0.6 percent jewish just missed it just missed it so close this area i'm blown away yeah we got to

do it a couple weeks ago but we're close guys i'm. I'll find another one. 0.1% Islam. Politically here, it's pretty close, but last election, 51% Democrat, 44% Republican. It's Connecticut. It's a blue state. And then we have unemployment rate here is, like I said, right now, who the hell knows,

but in the beginning of the year, it was right about average. Median household income's a little higher, though. Normally the rest of the country, it was right about average. Median household income is a little higher, though. Normally, the rest of the country, it is $57,652. Here, it's $63,914. Wow. So a little bit higher, not too bad. All the 75,000 and under categories are higher.

So you get a lot of people that are making, it seems like, $50,000 to $75,000. That's pretty average, which a lot of people work are making it seems like like you know 50 to 75 000 bucks that's pretty average which a lot of people work at the college so that might be professors and things of that nature cost of living really close to average normal is 100 here it's 101.4 so very close housing's a little bit low housing's an 89 that's great which connecticut is sure connecticut is so fucking expensive for housing one of the. And their taxes are really high. But also, if you've been to Connecticut, they have the I think the number one schools in the country with your taxes. And also, the roads are much better.

And almost just drive on the 84 from New York to Connecticut. Cross over and go, what happened? People have paid taxes here. You missed the sign. It's the sign. Yeah, that's what happened. taxes here. That's what happened. You missed the sign. It said, welcome to Connecticut. Yeah, that's what happened.

But in almost every list of top ten cities in America to live, almost every one of them has one or two cities that are in Connecticut. It's just a great place. It's a nice place. It's beautiful. Yeah, it's a nice place. Median home cost here is $205,100, which is low for Connecticut. And if you're

moving in lock, stock, and barrel, we have for you the Middletown, Connecticut Real Estate Report. Your average two-bedroom rental here is about $1,220, which is right at the normal for the rest of the country. But the house is, you can find a steal here and there. I found a four-bedroom, two-bath, 1,584-squ steal here and there. I found a four bedroom, two bath, 1584 square foot house. It's all fucked up though.

I mean like, it's vinyl siding and there's like, you know when there's too many wires running down the vinyl siding and you don't know what cable

and what's phone or what the fuck. Fuck it, put a new one up. It's got, well that happened and it's not good. Too many wires

on the vinyl siding is a bad sign. Things inside are messed up. $124,900. Could use an electrician. Need some work there. Yeah, at least to get rid of the wires. Three bedroom, two bath,

1,625 square foot. Nice neighborhood. Nice yard. It's a Dutch colonial. You know what those are. The roof comes down. It's a three windows. One of those, $239,000.

Nice inside. Decent, nice family house house got like the shingle on the front of it yeah the roof kind of shingle goes down to right above the front door has the three windows up there it's very interesting it's a weird pool it's a cool house but the snow comes down right that works i found a four bedroom three bath 2575 square foot over an acre of property it's new construction so totally different than the dutch colonial yeah 499 900 bucks for that one but it's very nice and it's clean and beautiful uh things to do in this town oh my you know there's going to be a ton of things to do i found the middletown music festival of course which are my favorite to find to find uh music i like that we'll say bands and

we don't know who the fuck these are every once in a while people will tweet at us like actually that one band that you said is really awesome and like tweet us videos so that's kind of cool actually and how they just saw them yeah i just saw them they actually rock and we found out that one festival at the exit 111 ended up all those people were actually there guns and roses people were completely real people tweet us pictures of it. Like, I was here. Here's a picture I took.

You're like, holy fuck. Are you kidding me? A guy that's like a trucker or something went through a truck stop and saw a man wearing the shirt. Yeah. So strange. So weird. It's like, I had to tell you that this guy's wearing this.

Right? So, Friday at the music festival, these are all 45-minute sets. They start every hour and they go for 45 minutes so break yeah that's it another new one comes out uh l trash combo i like them already they're opening up the whole weekend you gotta kick it off right uh parallax at six no hannah's field that's uh hannah with a capital h at both the beginning and the end of it. Oh. I don't know why. What is that? Hannah's field is like a vagina preference. It sort of sounds like. The euphemism.

Hannah's one of those words that are front and back where they call that. Yeah. That's not it. But it sounds right. So let's run with it. Palindrome. Nailed it. Parallelogram it is, Jimmy. Not even going to...

It's beautiful. That's fucking beautiful. I was dead ass serious. You are a beautiful man. You know that? Not even making a joke. You're a beautiful man. As soon as I said it,

I was like... Oh, I saw your eyes. You were dead serious. That's why I laughed. If you were kidding, I wouldn't have laughed. The fact that you were serious is why it was funny.

That's what made it hilarious. As soon as I got the word out, I saw the shape of a parallelogram in my head. I was like, you're a idiot. That's not it. And you graduated high school. See? That's what happened here. Goes to show you should have tried less, too. Because you didn't retain anything, and it didn't help you in life anyway, so fuck it. We both

should have tried less. Following 8 o'clock yeah randomizer yeah they sound that sounds rapey or a machine or a machine jeremiah hazed after that oh that's probably some weed jeremiah and his loose butthole gonna go up there i guess jam them out then they got um is this a i don't know if it's yoga or a band called Yoga. There's some yoga on Saturday. I don't know. It's goat yoga. Adelaide Punkin.

Oh. Poe Dunk Throwbacks. Yes. Cherry Sparks. Screamin' Eagle Band. No. Oh, boy. It's just a bunch of dudes that ride Harleys.

Woo! Yeah. Cosmos Sunshine. Someone You Can X-Ray. That's a band. Randy Moses. He's just hoping someone thinks it's Randy Moss and showsRay. That's a band. Randy Moses. He's just hoping someone thinks it's Randy Moss and shows up.

I need an autograph. He sings now. Let's go. Oh, shit. He looks short and white. What's going on here? When's Randy coming out? When's Randy Moss coming out?

Or Randy Johnson. We don't give a shit. Somebody named Randy that can throw or catch a goddamn ball. I don't give a shit which one. I'll settle for Travis catch a goddamn ball. I don't give a shit which one. I'll settle for Travis. Let's go. What the fuck you got going on? Shit.

Mr. Sparks after that. The Middlesex Music Academy Rock Band. Oh, boy. Parker's Tangent. That sounds like a fucking, I don't even want to get into it. A Filthy Fiasco. Oh. Creamery Station.

Oh. That sounds like there's jizz involved. Bonnie Jacobson. Dropping Quar quarters nina and the rumblings okay death saddle syndicate closes it out they gotta go back to school and figure out how to name a band that's not these are all bad these are all the bad names are taken i feel like so you're you're you're stuck with uh uh what is this one here just yeah blue genank i don't know even what that is that's what you're stuck with also there was cherry sparks and then mr sparks yeah as soon as you both have sparks in there oney is changing oney has got to change and there's there's a lot of sparks going on also there's an earth festival here that i didn't really

care to even look up who cares go there than the music yeah definitely uh crime rate in this town what we're interested in obviously here property crime is about 25 percent under the national average so it's pretty safe when it comes to your shit getting stolen and then violent crime murder rape robbery and assault the mount rushmore of crime is about half the national average so it's pretty safe here far, the town doesn't sound that terrible. It doesn't. And it's really, this is definitely, this is one of those murders, it's not the town's fault. We'll put it that way.

They've done all they can do. Well, it just really doesn't have anything to do with them. It's people from another place that end up here. We'll talk about it. The town is really an inconsequential observer. Really, yeah, there you go one of the less uh less noticeable victims of the of the thing because we just talked about them and they're like hey we didn't really what the fuck man they were barely here right they were here for like a month

this isn't fair so that's what happens though you know oh the kids smoking in the bathroom they fucking that's yeah screwed them all up that's that's how it works so uh let's talk about a murder all right okay let's do this so let's get into this here now 1990 is the year we're going to start with here not when the murder takes place but it's kind of a good jumping off point to start and jump into these people's lives let's talk about a few people here uh first off let's talk about a woman named janet griffin okay so uh janet griffin is uh she's born in 1946 so uh she's 44 years old in 1990 um she has ms she's recently diagnosed with ms which ms fucking sucks it is it sucks it really it really sucks the shit part

about my stepfather has ms and has had it for years so i'm kind of pretty versed on the whole thing as far as yeah it sucks it's because sometimes it's it's on and off yeah so you feel good for a while and then you're fucking crushed and there's more to it these horrible cramps my stepdad gets these horrible fucking cramps in the middle of the night that he'll wake up and like your feet are being twisted away from you. And he has to take these pills that immediately you have to. They like dissolve in your tongue and they start right now absorbing now like 10 seconds later. He said the pain so excruciating. Oh, Jesus.

He said, like, basically, if the pill doesn't work, he goes, I'm crawling to get my gun and shoot. right now absorbing now like 10 seconds later he said the pain's so excruciating oh jesus he said like basically if the pill doesn't work he goes i'm crawling to get my gun and shoot myself because that's how fucking bad the pain is he goes you can't survive he goes it's a pain where you're either gonna it's either gonna go away or you're gonna stop it one way or another it's that horrible and how does he do that in arizona too because this because he triggers it man this stuff and the heat that we have here i can't imagine he's exercising and he's always like but he's really tried to you know keep he goes to the doctor all the time he's got medications he's got other health problems too so he's got medication and then he exercises he runs still and all this shit but there's some days where he you know you'll

see it he just looks you know it's tough on his ass he's kicking his ass and it really it comes and goes and sometimes it hits you really hard and different things trigger it it's tough on his ass it's kicking his ass and it really it comes and goes and sometimes it hits you really hard and different things trigger it it's a brutal disease to have it's really uh it sucks you can't wish that on anybody that's a horrible thing that really does it sucks i had an uncle that had it too he had it for years and years they diagnosed him with it like like when he was going to the korean war and he had it for fucking 40 years and just shit was you know unsturdy on his feet was about the best uh and it'll accelerate and then slow down and then all of a sudden you've got it way worse than ever before and then for three weeks you don't feel near as bad it's horrible

man it's bad so uh now janet uh she had been married she was divorced she's married to a guy named john jasmine who he'll come up periodically over the course of this whole thing here. He divorced her in 1987. Marriage didn't get along. He filed for divorce. But they kept in touch because they have a couple of children together. I think I believe two daughters, but there might be another one that I can't find out about. So they keep in touch and they're they're

cordial yeah which i mean i guess i mean that's what are you gonna do you just got a mess man yeah well if you have two kids too it's impossible to not keep in touch with somebody if you're seeing the children at all it's you know some people wish it was the opposite yeah you may wish it but it's you're gonna have to talk to that person at some point here now and then so yeah keep that in mind if you're planning on having a child with somebody and you just kind of like them. Yeah, that's... Better hope that you fall in love fast.

Marriage is easier. You can get unmarried very quickly. You can get divorced and that's no problem. Co-parenting is a fucking nightmare. It can be a disaster, a divorce. It can have a couple years of pain monetarily and all that. But if you have a kid with someone that you don't like and get along with that is the next 20 years enjoy you have that's that's you have to deal with that person always you did that blame nobody but you

yeah be more careful about that than than marriage fuck who cares about marriage so next time she says take the rubber off keep that in mind yeah or when she says i'm on the pill keep that in mind marriage is a contract. It's like buying a fucking car. That's you can sell a car, buy a car, get divorced. But as a kid, you can't put it back. It's there now. The only thing you can do is, I don't know, fucking drown it.

And then you end up on our show. So is that a good idea for you? Or come to an amicable, you know. A parallelogram. A parallelogram agreement with that person. Yeah, clearly. That you both drop it off at the fire station and you wash your hands of each other. That's the answer.

If you don't want to go to jail. That's it. Once you've had it, that's all you got. It's unbelievable. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery Plus, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group.

Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family.

But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly.

And our show is part true crime, part spooky, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity,

that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid.

We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing.

This mother****er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app

or on Apple Podcasts. Fuck, man. So 1990, Janet Griffin here. She is employed as a housekeeper at the Pico Resort Hotel in Vermont. So she's a housekeeper there, and it's like a resorty area. Vermont is full of skiing and resorts

and little towns destination place quaint places it's everything big word everything's quaint and new england's all charming it's all charming and quaint and pepperidge farm remembers and all that shit you know what i'm saying just a bunch of dudes sitting on the porch remembering shit everything's fucking quaint everything that's Everything's a charming quaint. It's a bed and breakfast. And it's got separate hot and cold faucets. So charming.

It's quaint. That's what goes on there. That's what happens there. There's a canopy on the bed. I would never think to do that at all. We should do this to our house. All the food's described as peppery or something. Yeah, it's peppery and everything's like you would just fresh forest cod or some shit.

You didn't go in the forest to catch my fucking, my filet mignon I'm having at this nice resort, I guess. I don't know what people have at resorts. This charming place. This charming, quaint, quaint place. It's just so quaint what's the word they use to describe smoky flavor in like uh in foods like pepper is is something of it uh pepper is unctuous like uh fucking there's a whole lot of food porn adjectives yeah i forget the fucking there's a lot savory savory yeah nailed it that's the one yeah yeah there's a savory everything's considered savory charming quaint peppery yeah every bed has

a fucking canopy yeah savory because it's got like everything's got rosemary on it it's a you know it's a real smoky flavor smoky there's potpourri everywhere it's a very potpourri environment it seems like where vermont seems like where potpourri is assembled if you ever see like a thing of potpourri that was the pieces were picked out and put in a thing at in vermont probably trimmed by an old lady sitting in a in a bed with a canopy yeah and then she jammed it into a bag and shipped it to michael's there you go have fun describing it as savory it's a savory scent fuck man so uh her boss uh her direct supervisor the executive housekeeper at the hotel

now that's a position is uh gina cochia that's her uh her friend and her boss as she as janet gets a job there gina already works there and they become friends after a while. And a couple of ladies here, they become friendly. They end up actually becoming roommates after a while. They both work at the same place. It's easier to carpool. Makes it easy for Janet to worry about whether her hands can wrap around a fucking steering wheel. That's the other thing in there.

But well, she's her body's fine. She's doing great. She's just diagnosed with it, but body's fine at this point right she's just diagnosed with it but she's okay at this point there's no physical manifestations that are visible i mean she might have some inside feelings or whatever pain here and there but to talk to the doctor about it for him to yeah or she could add you know there's different things you could have i would find that especially women who are in their 40s with their bodies when who are in their 40s or at the doctor, you got to make sure. There's a lot of maintenance, yeah. You got to make sure things down there

don't go fucking wrong. It's a problem. It's like a high mileage four wheel drive at that point. You got to check the differential fluid. That's the thing. But then once they hit menopause, then it's like a fucking, it's a free show down there.

There's nothing really like it. Things happen once in a while, but pretty much it's a party. party it's party time whereas with us yeah we have it easy well once you're late in your life though oh that's the thing we have it easy until until we hit 50 and then our everything in us is our fucking swelling into other things and causing bad things to happen and people are pissing 14 times a night and your fucking prostates falling out and your nuts are just a fucking they're just a hindrance at that point they're low they're a ticking time bomb there's no reason to fucking have them your everything you have becomes worthless that will kill you

yeah really it be it becomes liability, your whole lower portion. And then women, they're just like, woo! I mean, stuff could happen, but it's less likely when they're older. You know? That's what happens. That's why ladies get in their sexual prime later, because they're like, there's nothing to worry about now. Meanwhile, guys, you see old men with that look on their face walking around, that's

because they're like, my balls and my dick and my asshole and my prostate. It's all fucked up, man. My liver and kidneys. Everything's fucked. I haven't peed right in three weeks. It comes out fucking sideways in seven different streams. This is a mess. Help me.

I don't even have holes over there. Yeah. Women are having dildo parties at 75. They're having sex toy. They have to because our shit doesn't work yeah no that's what i mean and men are like oh god i'm please don't die today stay with me yeah so i guess ladies who are listening hang in there it flips don't worry about to get great it's about to be much better for you later on in your life so they're friends uh now they share an

apartment and they're both single for a time because they eventually here become uh an item yes gina and janet become an item once they're living together working together they become lovers here so they live in rutland uh vermont is where their their you know abide here or their abode is abode abides here they are um so yeah they're and it's i i believe for janet this is her first foray okay into uh you know homosexual relationship into a really into a lesbian relationship here uh gina i'm not sure about here doesn't really matter either way they're together who cares so um and it's like yeah they're together in vermont i mean that's you know no one gives a shit no enjoy ladies have fun they celebrate it already yeah and make your potpourri and enjoy it either way i don't care

who you're fucking just make that potpourri because that's what you're here for that's our export okay who's got access to your vagina all i care about is that sweet sweet savory potpourri that you're gonna produce bring it down so uh yeah they started when they're when they're working together it started it doesn't start until late 91 early 1992 their time physical relationship well it took time for she started working there in 90 janet did and it took time for them to working there in 90. Janet didn't. It took time for them to become friends. And then eventually it blossoms into this. So another person who we will talk about, who they knew at the time and who who Janet becomes friends with.

He'll come up later. So I want to introduce him now. And that's Gordon Lee Fruin. Fruin. That's a hard way. He goes by Butch. As you would. It's Butch.

Gordon Lee Fruian II as well. Jesus. Butch, obviously, is who you'd be. Clearly, you're Butch at that point. Gordon Lee Fruian II, of course. The second. To make it sound royal. Yeah.

Knock it back down to some West Virginia Butch. Butch, yeah. I like it. The family, it's more... Butch fits it better. the second sound royal yeah knock it back down to some west virginia butch yeah that's the family it's it's it's more butch fits it better but then you find out it's interesting here so uh now he was he ended up he's a housekeeper as well at the resort during this time so that's how they know him peripherally he's friends with them as well uh he's gay also uh butch is so they're uh which i don't know they'll make them more friends but they're comfortable around each other in that way to where they're not gonna have to hide their sexuality or who they are with each other so that's nice um so

june of 1992 comes around and not all is perfect with the ladies here uh gina kochi is not happy with janet um there's some issues here and there janet's a little bit controlling and stuff like that so gina ends the ends the uh the intimate part of the relationship with just roommates we're just roommates we're just friends we work together which is how it's which is how it started but yeah it's really hard to go from we're together to now we're roommates that That's a different thing. Anytime they're on the phone, who are they talking to? Somebody else.

Until both parties move on completely, that's not an easy. And there's also the possibility that maybe we take a step back, you go across the hall into that bedroom, and then maybe in six months we try this again. You never know. Exactly. So that's what happens here. They still end up living together

but janet did begin she got very upset when uh gina ended the relationship janet didn't want her it wasn't mutual at all gina says we're ending it and janet says that she wants to keep it going and i like you know what what's wrong type of thing she doesn't understand but gina is steadfast in the she wants to end it got it so around that same time uh gina and her father purchased a two-family house in vermont and which was a big house big property yeah big two-family house in vermont so at that point caught gina and janet moved in together at that house oh so they ditched the apartment they had and moved in together there so uh the thing is here they still across the hall didn't even happen they still share a bedroom what the fuck but they're not together and they're not hooking up

they're not intimate at all here it's like a jesus there's a very like gina has drawn a line in the sand of this relationship in the bed sheets that's the thing yeah on that side i'll be over it's like an 80s sitcom where she's got like a rent a roll of tape down the middle no holds barred with hulk hogan where what's her name there put the like a big fucking curtain that she over the bed she set up it took her a half hour to set this thing up just to not i guess touch her i don't know what the fuck so maybe that's what happened i don't know maybe they put a piece of tape down the middle of the fucking room or whatever, like children. I'm not sure.

But they end up, that is a weird arrangement. I don't know how you do that. I mean, I have no idea how you do that. Because it doesn't matter whether it's man, woman, man and woman, woman and woman, whatever it is, relationship is a relationship. And if it's over, it's over. You don't want to sleep in the same fucking bed with that person. I slept on the couch for three months until I got my apartment.

That's what I mean. I had a fucked up neck for a long time. Yeah, you don't want to sleep in the same bed with this person. You don't like me. I don't like you. Well, the thing is, it's even worse if it's not even I don't like me, you don't like you. At least you can agree on something. One really loves, still is into the relationship and wants to continue and the other one doesn't so that's even worse how

can you make your point that you don't want to be there if you're right fucking you're right there my foot touches yours that's what i mean it's got to be like that's that's really difficult i don't understand how that works at all but i mean somehow i guess these ladies were making it work but that has to blur the line for the dumped party. You know what I mean? Like it has to, I get the necessity, whatever, but it has to still certainly gives you an idea that there, that there's not closure and there we may be able to fix this. Yeah. They're literally right there. You can reach out and touch them.

I can smell your morning breath. That's the thing for good or bad here. So, so, uh, while visiting her aunt, uh,ina goes and visits her aunt margaret pugilese there's a bunch i like this fucking family it's a bunch of fucking guineas over here hey it's aunt margaret and maggie and maggie how yous doing hey very good oh look at the fucking meal she prepared for us unbelievable pugilese pugilese i really think old margaret pugilese is gonna have some good stuff on the table when you come over there.

Damn nice gravy. Yeah. Not even that. Just the snacks. Okay. The old Guinea snacks. Like my grandmother, if there was company coming over, just the shit on the table would be like good Italian bread.

There'd be like, you know, sliced appersetta and shit like that and cheese and like nuts and like, you know, fucking basic picky shit there. So it's not enough that we're gonna eat later on when you walk in i'm gonna fill you up now you're obviously famished from the journey you know what i mean how long's it been three months you drove your cadillac from a town over 18 fucking minutes so clearly you need to replenish yourself as soon as you walk in the door you're gonna fall over otherwise you must be exhausted from snacking at truck stops for the last 35 minutes. Then they'll send you home with food.

Right. Go in 10 minutes. Here, take for the ride. I'm going 15 fucking minutes. What are you talking about? Take the meatballs. Get in. Take a sandwich for the car, they'll say.

For the car? What, is the car hungry? You think my car runs on meatballs they go they go places with that that sell food and bring food do you understand that's not normal my aunt and my aunt and her husband they took my grandmother to the mall a few years back 15 years ago or something took her to the mall for something the whole time they smelled weird in the car. They just couldn't, but they're like, whatever. It's probably outside. Phoenix smells funny sometimes, so you never know.

Sometimes it just smells like shit. No reason. Yeah, it happens a lot. So it was wafting from the farms or something. So anyway, they're at the mall. They're there for a while. And finally, it's like lunchtime. So they're like, well, let's go to the food court.

We'll get some lunch quick before we continue shopping. So we're like, oh, okay, okay. We go to the food court. They go to the food court and they're like, well, Ma, what do you want? They're saying, you know, what do you want? We'll go some lunch quick before we continue shopping. So we're going, oh, Ma, okay, okay. Ma, we go to the food court. They go to the food court, and they're like, well, Ma, what do you want? They're saying, you know, what do you want? We'll go get you something. You want, like, McDonald's? You want, like, Chinese food or whatever?

They're listing off the things. Ma, what do you mean? Whips out of her purse frittat sandwiches. Might bring for everybody. Wrapped in tinfoil. You know what frittat is? It's a fucking egg. This egg mixture of fucking onions

and peppers and shit in it frittata sandwiches she brought to the mall jimmy to the fucking mall i figure we eat at the food court you're gonna eat to buy the food it's no you don't buy that you have this and my aunt is horrified because everyone's standing no one else has tinfoil wrapped egg sandwiches at fucking one o'clock in the afternoon at the mall food court. Nobody came to the food court for a picnic a la brat from home. What the fuck is this? What are we talking about?

It stinks like onions and eggs. And it's like once the tinfoil opened, they're like, oh, that's the smell. Fucking Furtat sandwiches. Jesus Christ. So my aunt's like, Ma, you can't bring Furtat sandwiches to the mall. They sell food here. Ma, get the hell out of here. I'm going that food i make myself my god jesus you could have just brought the sobers what we couldn't do that that's frittata sandwiches throw some cold cuts in there

think about her mind though that wasn't in the fridge she didn't just grab that she said we're going to the mall later yeah i better make some right fucking frittat sandwiches what's the smelliest shit i know how to make yeah what is it i'm gonna make that i'm gonna want those later i better make it for everyone because they're obviously going to be jealous of my frittat sandwich if you know they see i gotta compete with mcdonald's and and orange julius and chick-fil-a i gotta compete with their smells i'm gonna make something much stronger you'll never smell the other things trust me the sabaros does not stand a chance with me here. So sorry to get off on that tangent,

but that's, that's how it is. So I just picture old Margaret Pugilese. So anyway, Gina, Cochina, Gina, Cochina,

Gina, Cochina, Gina, Cochina visits her aunt, Margaret Pugilese in Bloomfield, Connecticut. And there at her aunt's house, she ends up meeting a lady who she becomes friends and a little bit more with later on.

She becomes friends with Patricia Lynn Steller, who is 43 years old at the time. And they become friendly. She lives in Middletown, Connecticut, on Red Orange Road. Which, make your mind up. Is it red or is it fucking orange? Red Orange Road in Middletown, Connecticut here. So that's how that works. They become friends, Gina and Patricia do.

And Gina ends up returning to Connecticut several times after that, not to visit her aunt, but to visit the new Patricia, the new lady in her life, to go see her. the new patricia the new lady in her life to go see her and uh also uh she even brought at patricia and her aunt patricia and margaret actually went together because they were friends gina's aunt they had visited gina in vermont two or three times okay so they're all becoming close friends and uh the aunt seems to be kind of helping facilitate this whole thing which you know a nice girl. Thank God.

My niece is a nice girl. Thank God for her. It's good stuff there. Nice going, Aunt Margaret. I like her. So January 1993, finally, Gina requests that Janet move out of the house that they live in by June of 93, just in the next six months. live in by june of 93 six months just in the next six months that is really kind kind and just if you know good think about that that's uh really like you can't get any more just facilitating

than that like kind yeah listen we've been broken up for six months anyway right and i'm going to give you another six months that you can stay here that's not bad or she uh needs help paying the rent until then and it's possible heartless you know you never know well this is the house she bought with her dad great so i think it's i think they're good i think they're yeah i think she's just or she needs help paying the mortgage something i think she's either way she's either way it's kind yeah if you want a roommate you're probably not your ex-girlfriend is the one you're gonna have as a roommate maybe you that's somebody else yeah they want to pay some rent so you would think that janet at this point would be very would be like wow what an amazing person you are this is great i'm very

lucky instead she got really upset because now it's now if she's not because i think she feels like if i'm especially living in the same room with this person i am within striking distance like this is you know i could get back with her at any moment in time but once now she and she now she's got a six month countdown to when this is yeah that's what i mean so she she's losing her at this point and she uh she says she tells gina that she still loves her and that she doesn't want to leave and gina had to reiterate that the romantic relationship's over it's been over you know we we've been living together but i want to move on with my life now and i can't do that with my ex-girlfriend literally in my bed the point it's kind of

tough you can't really do that yeah so apr 1993 comes along, and this is the point where Gina begins to have an intimate relationship with Patricia. Yeah. This is Gina Cuccia, Patricia Steller. Now, Steller traveled to Vermont to see her on several occasions, but she never stayed at the apartment that she, because she still lives there. Janet still lives with Gina. So it's not like Patricia came over and stayed at the apartment and flaunted it in front of like they were like let's not like they stayed away from her to have to rub it in i don't i gina seems like a very kind person i'm impressed with the maturity of this relationship oh yeah

yeah this is a bunch of 40 year old women so at least you're gonna get that where they're you know what i mean they're not like children where they're nobody's really being petty and this one's trying to be nice they know what they're you know what I mean? They're not like children where nobody's really being petty. And this one's trying to be nice. They know what they are. They know what they are accommodating. Yeah, it is nice. Yeah, it's a nice deal. So they start that, which is like I said, they're not rubbing it in her face, which is terrific.

But what she would do is Patricia would stay at more. Aunt Margaret has a near a vacation home up here. So Stellar would stay up there. Patricia would stay at the vacation home. And then Gina would go down and visit stellar and stay with her. Stay with Patricia when she'd go down to Connecticut. She'd go down the red orange road in Middletown and stay with her there. Now, Gina did not inform Janet that this was a more than friendly relationship with Patricia because it's her ex-girlfriend. It's none of her business. It's none of her goddamn

business. It really isn't. And also probably that's just going to upset her anyway. Right. If that information is only designed to hurt somebody, you know what I mean? Or to further separate us. What's the point of doing that? We're already amicable. We're getting along. And I think Gina's thinking she's going to leave in

June once she leaves and we'll just continue and everything will be fine. Less What's the point of doing that? We're already amicable. We're getting along. And I think Gina's thinking she's going to leave in June. Once she leaves, then we'll just continue and everything will be fine. Less confrontation, the better when it comes to something like this. Why have a giant confrontation if you don't? Why agitate a beast? There's no reason. Don't poke the bear. Don't fucking, yeah.

Don't, what is it? Don't anger the hive. Yeah. There's no need. No need to do it. Now, in May of 1993, finally, Janet moves out. She moves out and she moves into an apartment owned by a friend of hers, a woman named Natalie Jurgen, who comes up quite often here in this story. Yeah, she's part of this as well.

Not, you'll see. Never mind. So at the time of this here, this whole thing, Gina is employed. Gina and Janet still work together at the woods at Killington up there. So they're still working together. Now they're not living together. Before that, they were working and living together and being exes. And I don't know how they held it together that long, if I'm honest with you.

So they're no longer roommates, but they do remain friendly, though. They remain friends. And that's one of those things. I don't know if Janet is trying to stay close to Gina because the whole time she wants to be back with Gina. There's no, she never says, okay, great, I'm moving on. It's always like, well, hopefully I'll get Gina back. And I think Gina's trying to not,

like I said, not poke the bear here. So she's trying to go along with the whole thing because they end up, they drive to work together. They carpool to work together still. I can't imagine. Yeah. It goes from working and living to now working and driving but not living, but still it's a lot. And also, Gina is the superior at the job.

You know what I mean? Yeah, she's her superior as well. She's got to kiss her ass in the first place. Yeah. And she's got to kiss her ass more because she wants to win her back. Yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot.

As I could imagine, it would be. This is a... Stressful. Emotionally, anybody would be... Yeah. There'd be some tumult

happening with you. So Janet, though, repeatedly tells her friend, Natalie Juergen, that she still loves Gina and she wants her back. So that's her goal that she sets to all her friends is i'm gonna get gina back one of these days unbeknownst to her gina's

already moved on and is hanging out with patricia now uh finally in the summer of 1993 um i think gina feels bad over because because uh you know patricia i'm sorry janet keeps saying that she wants to get back with her so gina finally says that she sits Janet down and she says, look, I'm in a relationship with somebody else. Moving on. I'm done with this. You know, I'm sorry. And, you know, that's the way it is. So realization, that's it.

And Janet broke down and, you know, said, no, I want to resume. I want to be in a relationship with you. This is crazy. We didn't even know you were dating exactly we're we should be together and i thought i was getting close and this shit and so obviously this is kind of an ugly scene everybody who's ever been in a relationship has been in some kind of some kind of branch of this tree you know what i'm saying and it's it's never good to be on either end of it isn't great. No, no. You know, every fucking sociopath. That's the thing. Most people have been on both ends.

And either whether you're either a glutton for punishment that you just love abuse, you're some kind of fucking masochist or a complete sociopath who loves to destroy a human being psyche. That's the only way you would enjoy that from either side. The worst way to be in it is when you didn't even know that that person liked you and was like flirting you didn't even know those were flirts yeah you're dating someone they're like oh my god i liked you so much i was trying so hard you're like yeah whoops i'm so sorry yeah my bad what what did i do how did i how did i tell you that shit i was i was just living i'm really sorry i was just doing the thing i was just living. I'm really sorry. I was just doing my thing. I was just living. I was just living.

You took that as a life-threw shit. What the fuck, man? So, anyway, Janet tells Gina, though, or Gina tells Janet she still wants to be friends with her. She's like, look, I am moving on and all this, and obviously we're broken up, but I still want to be friends with you. So, it's not like I hate you as a human being or anything like that but uh janet has an answer janet tells gina that it's all or nothing none of this shit either i'm not gonna ever speak to you again or we're gonna be together one of the two we're not gonna be friends and uh either all or nothing chicky and uh gina says okay then nothing i guess sorry it's the only

answer you can give yeah i don't want to be with you that's it she says she's sorry if it's all or nothing it would have to be nothing is what she told her so it's tough shit so janet um you know says okay i guess that's it and you know they separate and go their separate ways but um finally a couple days later janet calls gina and says look i was being a dick you know i was being kind of a dick let's still be friends you're being nice to me this whole fucking time and that was kind of shitty of me to put that on you remember when i said all or nothing yeah the schedule we have the same shift for like the next four months yeah you know what i mean i'll do bathrooms you do beds and let's just fucking forget the whole thing all right

let's just be pals so she decides that seems like a mature move. Like, you know what? I was upset, but now I thought about it and I'd like to be friends. So Gina's happy about that. She's great. I'd love to be friends with you. That's terrific. Let's all be friends then.

Good deal. So on August 13th, 1993, Gina, in a very friendly manner, moves out of Vermont and leaves. Let's be pals. Great. I'm somewhere else. Fucking moving away. Oh, yeah. Long distance friends.

Long distance calls only here. So Gina moves out of Vermont and moves into Patricia's house in Middletown, Connecticut. So that's where she ends up. Now, also someone else lives there. Patricia's nephew, Ronald King, who's 26 years old he lives there also so it's going to be gina and patricia and ronald king are the residents of this home in middletown so uh gina took all her stuff even she brought her small dog to live there she's got a little pomeranian this is dead ass serious it's serious yeah no when a lesbian brings her dog

that shit that's yeah she's she's moving the dog cage everybody this is a fucking this is as good as it's as good as a ring yeah that's it she's living here the dog cage is coming the dog's gonna get familiar oh shit she's not leaving it's on yeah and uh it's perfect too because patricia's house even has a doggy door in the kitchen for the dog perfect dog goes in and out a little hatchie comes in and out happy. And so it couldn't be any better. Boy, do I love a dog door. Isn't it cute?

Oh, they're adorable. Especially the little ones. Yeah, because they look so happy. I did it. I did it myself. All my own, fucker. I don't need you. Yeah. What's up with that?

They come in to shit all over the yard. Did I need you for it? Nope. Once. Not a fucking bit. You're going to have to pick that up, though. Go pick that up and then put food in my dish. Yeah, because I'm going to have to pick that up, though. Go pick that up and then put food in my dish. Yeah, because I'm going to have to do that again soon.

Two hours, I'm going to head back out there. Thank you, and no one go pick that up. There's shit all over the place. Enjoy. It's cute when they come in. They look excited. But, of course, Janet remains living in Vermont. She's got a separate life.

She doesn't obviously move to Connecticut with her ex-girlfriend and her new girlfriend. That's not how that works. So Gina and Janet, though, they do remain friendly even after Gina moves. They keep in contact, which I mean, Jesus Christ, everything that Gina says sounds like a blow off, but it's actually not. She's actually being honest. Everything's like, you know, I don't want to be with you. OK, you can live here, though. It's all very honest so they actually talk they call each other

it's not just janet calling jean either jean will call janet to say hello and see how she's doing nice people you think they had kids together or something doing great or you think she you know has a fucking heart and knows that her ex-girlfriend also has some health issues and keeping an eye on her i think that's it And yeah, and they were friends before that, so it's not like they just got together. They were friends before that. They were like genuine friends and then they became together.

So there's a connection beyond just, I want to have sex with this person. There's a deeper connection. There's an actual love, not lust. Yeah, or friendship at this point, at least. And there's still going to be love and friendship. I love you, motherfucker.

That's it, yeah. I love you back. That's right. I feel like I pressured you into saying that. No, no, no, it's okay. Normally I'd wait till love you back. That's right. I feel like I pressured you into saying that. No, no, no. It's okay. Normally, I'd wait till after the show. That's fine.

So the problem is that Janet doesn't like Patricia. Really? Jean is fine. Everything's great. They're together. That's all fine and dandy. But I don't like that fucking Patricia, though. She is a bitch.

As a matter of fact, not only is she a bitch, she tells. And this is not my language, by the way, at all. This is there's no other way to say it. Otherwise, I try to figure it out. But I don't know. So on August 23rd, 1993, Janet told a co-worker that Patricia was a, quote, city slut dyke. Wow. Which is a pretty strong words from Patricia.

If she doesn't usually say shit like that. So her co-worker was like, damn, that's fucking wild. Holy shit. You just repeat that shit. She's fucking nuts. And basically, not only that, but patricia was actually holding gina captive in connecticut and basically ruining gina's entire life she's basically taking her to this place away from everybody in connecticut so she can ruin her life and make her dog shit in the yard all the

time i don't know what the hell's going on here. So city, yeah, I was like, whoa, that is. Wow. That's a that's aggressive. So that fall later on coming up at the end of the summer, not quite the fall yet. Gina and Patricia spend two or three weekends at Gina's Vermont home. They go up to Vermont for the weekend, which is that's nice. Who doesn't want to go up to the city? Who doesn't want to go to Vermont for the weekend? I would love to go to Vermont for the weekend. That's nice. Who doesn't want to go to Vermont for the weekend? I would love to go to Vermont

for the weekend right now. Wouldn't you? I'd love to go anywhere that's not 120 fucking degrees. By the way, it hasn't rained here. It sprinkled the other day for like four minutes. On Monday when I left? Last night it sprinkled for a minute. I left here on Monday night and the orange clouds

were coming and I was like, oh my god, we god we're gonna get shit on i got home just dust and it was nasty it hasn't rained here since april april it is it is late august right now it has not rained since april and we've had over 40 degrees of 110 degrees plus since then 40 days it's fucking hell on earth and i can't take it anymore i would like to be anywhere right now. And we would be. Yeah, anywhere. I'd go to the South happily right now. I don't give a shit. At least it's got some rain. You know how I feel about that.

Yeah, I don't care. It might rain. There's a possibility of it. Fuck me. I'm losing my mind. It's awful. I just want out of here right now. Absolutely awful.

Fucking brown nightmare. Just a beige, dusty nightmare. That's all this place is. And a cloud of dust comes in every three days. And makes it worse. Dirtier, if that's all this dust comes in every three days and makes it worse dirtier if that's the thing so they spend some time at the house of her mother going away for the weekend like we said we'd like to now on those occasions patricia even or i'm sorry gina even told janet that she was coming there she wasn't hiding it or anything okay we're coming up for the weekend if

you'd like to see us we'll be be there. I mean, I'm a city slut. Yeah, there she is. Maybe she was just wearing a shirt one time and said that. So, Janet, though, refused to visit Gina because she did not want to see Gina with Patricia, which is understandable. That's fine. I get that. That wound needs to heal sometimes. You don't want to see that for a while. So totally understandable.

But she would insist on seeing Gina anyway. She'd say, look, I really want to see you anyway, though. So somehow she would get Gina to come over alone to her apartment without Patricia. And Patricia was OK with this. Yeah. Patricia, this didn't cause that much. I think it was like, honestly, I think it was one of those things where Gina was like, look yeah she's kind of sad lady yeah i feel bad you know what i mean she's very lonely she's very sad she's got ms um she kind of gets flies off the handle sometimes it's just easier worry about her

yeah let me just it's easier if i just go see her for an hour and just that's it then she'll be fine i don't have to deal with it for a while i feel like she talked her into it like that like it's easier than dealing with it so she i don't i can't be sure obviously but lesbians might be the only relationship where this can actually work because a straight man is not letting his fucking new girlfriend go see her ex-boyfriend no are you out of your fucking mind no and and men and men ask your ask your girlfriend if that's okay that's that's also maybe i don't know if that has to do anything to do with lesbianism or also maybe maturity, that these people are all in their 40s. Right.

That helps a lot. Maturity, trust, conversation, honesty. The fact that they're all in their early 40s, I think, really helps a lot. If these ladies, anybody, if they were all 22, I feel like none of this shit would be going on. Probably right. There'd be much more jealousy and, you know, you have a lot more piss and vinegar when you're that age. There might just be some trust and respect that these two built.

That's the other thing. Makes it much easier. This might speak more to the relationship between Patricia and Gina, that it's a strong relationship. So either way, this ends up happening. So one, October 1993, the first weekend, Gina and Patricia spend that weekend in Vermont. And before returning to Connecticut, Gina told Janet that she would no longer visit her alone in her apartment.

She said, look, I'd still like to be friends with you. I'd like to see you. This is amazing. Not only that, I'll still be friends with you, though. If you want to see me in the future, though, you have to come to where we're at. And it's not fair to Patricia otherwise. It's not right you come over there we're happy we'll have dinner together we're happy to all be friends and you're also putting me in the position where i have to have this conversation exactly it's a significant other you're making me have to try yeah every time i

have to come for her and tell her look nothing's happening yeah i just have to go alone that's yes what i don't know so so much of that she said she didn't think she could do that probably she's like i don't know if i could do that shit basically so the next afternoon which was monday october 4th 1993 janet and her daughter melody melody jasmine is her name melody they just arrived at the house in at ron red orange road in middletown they just show up just show up at gina's house unannounced on whatever uh driving a rental car as well so uh janet tells gina that she had been shopping in the middletown area and she said i figured i'd stop by and see you guys stop by for a visit um you know and see whatever so she does uh gina invites her in this is it's unexpected but it's also kind of what she wanted.

Like, oh, she's willing to come into my home now. All right, maybe this is getting better. She's got her daughter with her. This is very friendly. Also, Janet brought frittata, so it's great. We got frittata sandwiches. They're all wrapped in tinfoil. We got to eat them.

Hey, she must have had them out of the fridge for like four hours, Jimmy. That's the thing I don't get. They left the house at 10 in the morning. She had to be cooking them at 9. They didn't eat till 1. These 25 years, you just sit there going, she 10 in the morning. She had to be cooking them at nine. They didn't eat till one. These 25 years. You just said they're going. She had to.

She had to. They were in her purse. They had to be old. I mean, everyone had to shit themselves silly that night. A big sandwich full of old eggs. That can't be good for you. Right. Sorry.

It's been on my mind for so long. I can't get it out. My first thought sandwich. My why? My why? My why? What's wrong with that? So Janet brought those. So she brought frittata sandwiches.

So anyway, during the visit, they come in, they chat in the kitchen. Very friendly. Gina tells Janet a story about how, you know, as Gina says, Janet says, how's everything going at the house? She goes, oh, it's pretty good. She tells her a story about how she actually locked herself out of the house two days ago and uh patricia was nowhere around she was they both work at wesleyan uh both gina and patricia so she said gina patricia was at work and she couldn't get off and you know they didn't have a cell phone in 93 so she had no

way of contacting her anyway and she stuck outside the house so she had to squeeze herself through the doggy door oh my god so she's like i had to crawl through the doggy door but otherwise it's fine so they have like a little anecdote that's a little laugh that they have good you know everybody's sweaty and then i ran and got a running start through the pomeranian door they dove i don't know if the door was made for the pomeranians it's big enough for a woman to fit through but yeah i'd like to imagine it was a pomeranian door closed. Yeah, full time. She just squeezed her way in there. She got in and she was just square shaped for the next two days. It's like a cartoon. That's fucking great.

I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you The Official Jinx Podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of Part 1 and watching along with Part 2 as it airs on Max, starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The Official Jinx Podcast.

Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Aaron and Justin sit down to discuss a new case,

covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence, and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. With over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. Great. So, yeah, that was, they had a little visit. Ha ha, Everybody leaves friendly. Everything's great. Problem is, that wasn't the only time, that wasn't the only time that she visited there,

unbeknownst to Gina. That's not the only time. She actually had visited with her friend Natalie on four separate occasions before that and during this time. These other trips started out as surprise visits there like we said and then in late august janet went to middletown with a marker she asked basically she asked her friend the jurgen lady she asked jurgen there to drive her down to middletown so they drove down to middletown they got to where g Gina's car or Patricia Stellar's car was.

And Janet took out a marker and said, I'm going to go write shit all over her car with this marker. I'm going to go write nasty things all over her car. And she got out of the car, ran over to Patricia's car, and then came back and said that she didn't do it. So she never actually did do that. And instead, they drove around for a little while and uh in the end janet just decided to mail a letter to gina instead of writing shit in

permanent marker on her girlfriend's car she decided to write her a letter which is a very different approach on a whim by the way yeah that's a that's a super different approach yeah that's just insanely does should i jump off a cliff or take a bath like that's a super different approach. That's just insanely different. Should I jump off a cliff or take a bath? That's way different things to do. I want to get to the bottom of this canyon. Should I just jump or should I hike down? Yeah, I can't decide. I mean, I'm at the bottom.

Dangerous. Dangerous. So then they end up having another trip here. On this trip, they arrive in Middletown and her friend Juergen there, Juergen is driving her again and they drove to Wesleyan University and Janet located Patricia's car

in the parking lot there and took Polaroid pictures of it. What the fuck? In the parking lot. That was it. Then Juergen drove Janet around the area that was near red orange road where the where they lived and uh they were just driving through the neighborhood and then janet asked jergen questions and took notes about like where you turn left here you went that okay whatever

she was like basically mapping the whole neighborhood janet's making herself where to go janet is having some problems she's making polaroids she's basically doing like a private investigator thing on this woman who she knows where she is who she knows everything about her already so it's very odd so a few weeks later uh this all happened here uh uh jergen said oh i'm sorry during the polaroid incident jergen says she asked her you know why are you fucking doing this why Why do you keep coming back? Because this is like three separate trips that we're taking here. And yeah, she said that, well, I'm doing this because I'm going to kill Lynn, which is Patricia's.

They call her but they call her Lynn because I'm going to kill her. Duh. Like, what the fuck do you think? So she was like, why? You know, obviously her friend was like, and why may I pray tell? Pray tell. Pray tell. Why might you be doing that?

And she said, because I wanted to get back at Gina. She's mad at Gina, so she's going to kill her city slut, apparently. That'll do it. Well, yeah. So not that she is a city slut at all. That's according to her, obviously. If you're going to get back at somebody. This woman seems like a nice woman by all.

Murdering somebody they love? That's generally how you do it? It's illegal. Patricia Lindstall. That's the problem with it. That's the problem. People look, society really looks at that at least sideways. I don't know if down, but at least sideways.

Judges and law enforcement. They hate that. They hate it. More than anything, I think. It's one of the ones that just don't like it. One of the things that will get you every time. More than anything, I think. That's the problem. It's one of the ones. They just don't like it. One of the things that'll get you every time. So this is getting crazy. And from what we said, too, everything that we've heard, Patricia Lynn is a very nice woman.

She's real nice. So anyway, October 1993, Griffin Janet asked her friend Juergen again, listen, I'm going to kill Patricia here, Patricia Lynn, so will you help me? I need a ride. Want to help me do it? Yeah. So later on, Uber doesn't exist yet. Yeah, she's like, this is fucking crazy. So Juergen says, she

said, quote, I told her she was crazy and I wasn't going to get involved in anything like that. Quote, I had kids. She was like, I can't deal with this shit. So Juergen said that Janet responded to that. She said, I can't do this. I have kids. Janet responded, quote, yes, you're beautiful kids.

What the fuck? Which is like, what about them? Huh? Yes, you're beautiful kids. She like strokes. That's what I mean. And pets a cat. Like, what the fuck is going on?

This is crazy whoa just gave me a a fucking mob boss wouldn't say that right and now you don't mention anybody anything that you love in the reason that you don't do something apparently ever i when i said that to you you were you were like huh like the look on your face was like are you fucking kidding me i guess anytime you ask gangster if i don't want to do something, my reason for not wanting to do it is I'm busy. Yeah, busy. I got shit to do. My kids, Joey. It has nothing to do with my kids. I'm just busy.

Yes, you're beautiful kids. God damn it. Breathing heavy. You're beautiful. That is horrifying. That's horrifying. I'm telling you that I'm capable of murder and then just whispering, you're beautiful're beautiful yes you're beautiful kids so jurgen had the right reaction she said quote she scared me yeah i thought she was going to hurt my kids fair enough yeah she said she became scared of janet and became and began taking her children to school and picking them up after

school every day they fucked the bus hiding them from her so jurgen said that uh janet told her that if she said anything if you know basically if you tell on me that she quote that i'd be in jail right along with her so he said i'll tell him that you fucking help me do this and everything so jurgen said that uh this was a different janet than she'd ever known in her life but she's been friends with her for years this is the first time she was acting like this she said quote she was just cruel you had to see this face it scared the Dickens out of me I mean to

scare the Dickens out of us out of a woman that's tough you know it's hard you can scare the Poe out of them but not the Dickens you know it's harder a lot harder yeah come on that was good yeah you made a Poe and Poop on you got it's harder a lot harder yeah come on that was good yeah you made a poe and poop on you got it that's right so anyway she uh she ended up she's so petrified of her but she still drove her back there one more time so you're beautiful kids oh

i'm gonna hide from her except if she needs a ride so in in early October here, Juergen drives Janet to Middletown. And they drove around on the streets around the house. And this is when, wow, Janet tells Juergen the plan. She's like, all right, here's what I'm going to do. I mapped out the whole neighborhood. I know the route that Patricia Lynn takes home from work, right? So she's going to stop at this stop sign on Brush Hill Road. So what I'm going to do is, because it's her fault that i broke up with gina she's telling her friend

jergen that i'm sure this was all going on while they were still together and gina probably broke up with her because of patricia lynn and you know blah blah blah blah so she said what i'll do is i will uh i'll i'll you, stand here off Brush Hill Road. And when she stops the stop sign, it's a nice day. I'll jump up and stab her a bunch of times through the window. And then I'm going to carry ether with me. I'll cover the car in ether and set her on fire. Wow.

At the stop sign in her neighborhood. She is a she's vicious and cold and fucking. Wow. She's also out of her mind because you're not gonna do that no in a fucking residential neighborhood in suburban fucking connecticut he's gonna open somebody and set their whole car on fire spray an ether on the fucking flames then what do you do yeah motherfucker like you snap your fingers and disappear that's what i mean you start roasting more you might as well roast marshmallow someone's gonna see that everybody's already seen it fuck me so that's her plan wow that's her plan

jurgens and you know took jurgens uh credit i you would you would look at that person in fucking disbelief and just go are you serious but she probably has to go she's not serious i mean you wouldn't imagine so so much so that she brought her back a week later jergan did brings her middle town a fourth time on that trip she parked her car several blocks from patricia lynn and gina's home and and she remained in the car while janet walked off in the direction of patricia's house uh janet returned to the car about 15 minutes later, and they drove again down Brush Hill Road by the stop sign.

She wanted to go check that scene out again. This is the sign of the fucking fireball scene that she's planning on here. And then they drove back to Vermont. So now they said before their trip, after they returned from sorry, after they returned from this trip to Connecticut, Janet again told Juergen that I am going to kill the stellar. I'm going to kill Patricia Lynn on Brush Hill Road. That's happening. She said that you won't fucking help me.

Obviously, you're being a fucking stiff about it. Right. Being a goddamn prude. You won't set a woman on fire. You won't set an innocent woman on fire in a fucking broad daylight in the middle of a residential neighborhood. Pussy. she's doing a friend are you she's doing it like lynn killed a made man that's what i'm saying like it's not you gotta send a message to the whole neighborhood that's what it is like you see this when that gas tank explodes they're all gonna hear it and know no don't fuck with luke jay-z hey you don't fuck with us fuck with our unions so yeah so she says

since you won't help me i got someone else to help me next time i got butch oh gordon butch fruian jr here he's gonna help me he agreed to come to middletown with me and help since you're fucking useless so yeah she's out there soliciting from everybody she knows to help her murder. Yeah. And Butch agrees. Butch agrees. It's at this point that she told to show Juergen how serious she is. Janet shows her in her bag.

She has a black cap, gloves, and a gun in her bag. So she's got a little murder kit ready to go. Far cry from a stabbing. Yeah. The weapon in the bag is a 32 caliber handgun, which we'll find out where that came. That came from in a minute. And what Janet said to Juergen,

that she's going to use the gun to kill Patricia Lynn and wish me luck, is what she said. So I don't know if she did wish her luck or not, but whatever. Now, Butch, let's talk a drop about Butch. Butch did not have it easy.

He grew up in a small town in Vermont in in like the 60s as a gay guy as a gay guy oh boy it's not easy i mean it's i'm sure easier now but it's still not perfect and growing up in a small rural town back then in the 60s when baseball 50s and 60s not easy no not easy at all as i can imagine you would have to hide that shit and then you would feel horrible about it and people would find out they would ostracize you it's fucking terrible so uh later on a psychiatrist that examines old butchie here has a breakdown of butch to kind of give you the type of person he is going into this year as a child he felt ostracized isolated and alone uh he's raised by his elderly grandmother now his father's

alive and around but not in his life at this point or at least not living with him raised by his elderly grandmother felt feels more comfortable around women um which i was pretty much raised by both my grandmothers and i feel feel the same fucking way. I'm mad comfortable around women. Yeah, it's good. I just didn't happen to be gay also, so that's good. Or whatever, it's fine. So Butch apparently developed a passive-dependent personality, is what this psychologist calls it.

A passive-dependent personality. He's a subservient, timid man, basically. He says, quote, this is the uh doctor he shows a lifelong pattern of being an isolated effeminate homosexual by passive dependent i mean he's not anyone who has leadership qualities he's easily easily pushed around intimidated and coerced a twink that's yeah that's basically how he yeah yeah so uh well that's sexually though we don't know i believe i don't know twink is just like a description of their appearance they're like the small slender

yeah but then this i feel like we're going to get in a whole always sunny situation where we're going to go through this whole thing we're probably wrong about half of it and then we don't need to get into that let's just let's just say we don't know a bottom maybe not even that don't know let's just say we don't know he's the submissive we don't have to know everything jimmy that's the thing all we have to know is what happened in the case things around it hey i didn't even graduate high school i have no idea not that that would help in this situation but still so uh butch did not do well in school he didn't have many friends growing up as if you felt different in a small town you wouldn't anyway

so um the doctor said quote given his past background personality homosexuality and lack of a backbone to stand up to people it is beyond belief that he would be able to do anything else but respond in a way of a terrified frightened person if if confronted told what to do if told what to do yes so october 1993 butch uh butch gave his father some presents butch went over to his dad's house gordon lee froyan senior uh butch senior here gave him a new admiral television for montgomery ward oh montgomery ward it's a good one that's what i bought my first sega that's what i'm saying so uh he bought him that and in uh in return uh he gave his father gave him some cans of crab meat even trade a t-shirt yeah i don't know what's going on here. A t-shirt, some canned crab meat, and a silver-plated antique handgun. It's 100 years old.

It's a 100-year-old.32 caliber Smith & Wesson. Cool. Yeah, nice, right? The father said, quote, I wanted to give him something. I never gave him too much. He lived with his grandmother and all that. I threw him a crab and a t-shirt. So I gave him cans of food.

He'd go into his pantry. What do I got here? I got, you know, like baked beans. You like crab right hold on a minute here i got some canned crab gross gross so uh yeah very very gross so it's at this point janet is the head housekeeper at a ski at uh at a ski resort here uh right now uh there that's going on now i'm sorry she's a housekeeper at a condominium group near Mount Killington ski area. That's where she's working now.

She's also recently worked as a waitress and at the local Kmart and yeah, and as a health home aid and a staff member of a school for the mentally retarded in Brandon, Vermont. That was the official name of it again. A lot. Yeah, she's working a lot. She's a lot of her jobs are like kind of helping people too and shit like that uh that's janet by the way doing that really yeah that's janet doing this that's impressive for a woman with ms

with ms and fucking psychopathic thoughts so who's focused and hell-bent on killing burning a woman alive with ether in the street for christ's sake good lord so there's another trip where butch and janet drive down to middletown intending they intend to do the ambush on brush hill road they're ready they got the ether it's all fucking ready to go however that night they sat there for like two hours patricia didn't come through there that night they went by the house her car was there she went a different way so she didn't quite get her routing down so at that point uh butch became nervous and they went back to vermont he's like this is freaking him out freaking him out so at that point uh janet asked uh nicole to drive her to middletown again so she could kill patricia

this time the jerkin lady said i'm not fucking taking you at all. This isn't working. So then she made arrangements to get a rental car on November 1st, 1993. She specifically selected a rental car company in New York that did not require credit cards. So you could still do that in 93. There was still...

Pay cash. Yeah, you could still pay cash and whatever. So anyway, now back to Patricia Lynn, stellar and Gina Cochia here. They are, uh, November 1st, they're going to work. And,

uh, that morning on November 1st, Patricia erases her telephone answering machine tape and resets the machine. You know, remember now we have voicemail and your voicemail is full. Well, back then you used to have a fucking tape. And when the tape was full cassette in there,

that way it would fill up. You'd have to rewind it and then you'd record over it that's how it worked so you'd have whatever 30 minute tape because answering machine messages were like hey call me back blah blah blah so you could fit 100 of those in there one of those so she resets it that's on the kitchen counter the answering machine that she does so patricia lynn stellar and her nephew rodney king leave the residents together and drive to work in patricia's car yeah uh they both work at wesleyan so uh gina is the last person to leave the house before leaving she puts the little dog in its little cage and she locks the doors and checks everything you know like people do when she leaves that's it they

take off so gina comes home about 530 that night. She comes home about 530. She finds something quite horrific here. She finds both Patricia Lynn Steller and her nephew, Rodney King, are home, but not in good shape. Patricia has been Rodney King. Did we know that earlier? Did I call him Rodney?

You did. You said Rodney King twice. Now I was like, wait, hold on a second. Where is that? That's not his name. Now I forgot. Now I have to go back. Oh, no, it's not Rodney King.

It's not Rodney King at all. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I never forget names. I never forget. I got to find his fucking name now because it's beginning. It's not. It's not. It's the nephew.

Oh, damn it. You said Rodney King twice. I did say Rodney King. Okay. Well, that's not terrific. Did you write it in the end of this story? Now you put Rodney King? No, no.

Now I think in my brain. My brain has now absolutely turned it into Rodney fucking King. So now this poor man's name is Rodney King. And I don't want to be disrespectful to this guy at all. No, that's terrible. That's not what I'm looking to do here. Poor bastard. So I'm trying to find this guy's goddamn name.

There's something really poetic about that it's rodney king no it's not it's not right do you want me to google it and find out no ronald it's fucking ronald it's not rodney it's ronald a big fucking hit me in the face just now like my brain was like stupid it's ronald so awesome so i heard it just three minutes ago and i was like wait yeah i don't know why i said rodney and then all i could think of is rodney king because then it was just in my brain so this poor man ronald king sorry ronald sorry ronald king no we needed to get his name right because this is serious here. Now, Patricia Lynn Steller has been shot in the face. Oh, no. Four times and stabbed 14 times in the face, neck and chest.

Oh, that is personal. I mean, it's brutal. It's a brutal scene. And Ronald King was shot twice and stabbed five or six times in the chest. There's also like a blunt instrument. There's like a it looks like there's been a serious struggle going on here. That's a lot of attack on, on him too. It's a lot of attack.

And there's a bunch of, I mean, there's broken glass, there's shit everywhere. That looks like there's been a, like a, a fucking brawl with a hundred people in this living room. That's what it looks like.

And two people got the worst of it is what it looks like here. They find Gina runs out. Obviously, when she sees this, runs to a neighbor, calls the police. Police come over. They find a bloody kitchen knife there, believed to be one of the weapons used, along with some bullets. They find a shattered lamp and a broken mason jar. They find. Okay.

Now, but there's more than one knife used in the attack as well. So that's a thing. She got than one knife used in the attack as well here so that's a thing um this she got home about two hours after the attack and uh obviously this is interesting now one of the officers on the scene while they were doing the crime scene walking around he heard the there was a phone call and they didn't answer it obviously let it go to voicemail they will let it go to the answering machine when they go to the answering machine the it you know beeps but then does not take a message it just says that the recorder is full oh no that's it so the police officer says that's funny let me just grab this there's stuff on who knows what's on there so takes the takes the uh answering machine tape as

a you know it's full who knows who's called and maybe there's something maybe the killer called who knows later we'll listen to this later so he just grabs the tape as just a on a lark just see what the fuck happened uh so now what the fuck happened in here yeah well let's find out uh once they arrive home uh or once they arrive there what ends up happening is janet butch and janet's daughter melody all come down melody is the one who rented the car, okay? They're with Butch. They went together to rent the car. So they get to the home. They get to the, obviously, Patricia Lynn's home here.

Janet sends her daughter to the store for cigarettes. Says, go to the store and get cigarettes, okay? Janet and Butch walk around to the back of the house, because you know what's back there, don't you? The dog door. The doggy door, exactly. So Butch climbs through the dog door, because i think her body makes it hard for her from the deck and uh basically opens the back door by the way he'll say later on that while he was trying to get the sliding glass door and the deck open for her she was banging on the door with the gun and

shouting profanities at him we'll find out she's She's got a dark side. We're going to find out. It's pretty fucking dark, including a tattoo that's very questionable. So she's got she's very fucking screaming at him while he's trying to get open cursing and screaming open it motherfucker. So finally she gets in. Apparently Patricia

Lynn Stellar and Ronald King returned home from work together at 3 30 p.m. entered the house through the garage. When they went into the kitchen, Janet and Butch were already there waiting for them. Apparently, they entered. Janet fired the gun, which is the gun that the father gave him. That's the antique 100-year-old gun. And fired it at both of them, hitting them both multiple times until she was out of bullets.

So she's all out of bullets and uh they they're down on the ground but they're both still alive and she's out of bullets now so now she's like fuck yeah now what the fuck do i do so she asks butch to help help her help me fucking kill these people basically and we know for a fact this is what happened, because right about at this point during the struggle, somebody fell down and bumped into the answering machine and accidentally hit the memo button. Oh, no way. Which fucking records all the audio from then on. Fucked up.

So from now on, it's like you're recording your voice, your outgoing message. This is all. This is the outgoing message. This is the outgoing message. is the outgoing message get a knife motherfucker the first thing recorded is janet saying i thought you were going to help me to to butch and then you hear patricia lynn say no please yeah and then you hear janet say butch hold her this is fucking brutal this is i mean we there's crimes but you don't hear it people describe it they whenever they describe even if they're the murderer they'll put themselves in some other

i either wasn't as into it or i wasn't as aggressive or maybe i you know whatever the fuck it is you can tell a story and make it whatever you want it to be but there's no way to change the goddamn sound of what really happened yeah exactly so stellar uh patricia lynn says no don't don't no don't don't come on please i've got a son come on janet she says oh shit yeah said her name said yeah she knows her yeah she's fucking but i mean that's yeah that's she's personalizing it so personal that's what i mean i've got a son janet i have a child i know you what are we doing here so butch then says do it to her to janet so then janet uh she said uh patricia yells janet no and then you hear clicking noises because apparently he had more bullets put him in the gun but it wouldn't work it's jamming okay so it's just clicking and now janet says quote oh great i

can't so she sounds like irritated but she's like oh great now this happened now i can't even fucking shoot them more jesus i mean come on man the luck i have obviously so what ended up happening is uh butch went into the kitchen and found the knife block and took a big butcher knife out and handed it to janet who proceeded to stab the fuck out of patricia lynn and ronald as we found out 14 times six times a lot of stabbing i mean violent violent fucking attack i mean this is this is personal uh she also used a serrated paring knife and a carving knife as well good lord three different knives she was just grabbing hacking the fucking hacking away as much as she could

during all of this you hear the struggle you hear patricia say ronnie ronnie ronnie no no no janet no is what she says because he's she's stabbing the nephew uh then she says ronnie ronnie help me and there's a struggle and then you hear patricia say no ronnie ronnie ronnie ronnie ronnie help me and there's a struggle and then you hear patricia say no ronnie ronnie ronnie ronnie ronnie god no god please no no no janet and then you hear uh you hear rodney have long ground grown grown loudly ronald ronald yeah god damn it you hear ronald grown loudly and then you hear uh uh say, oh, God, Ronnie, help me. And then Janet says, give me something, anything. Because she has stabbed the shit out of them.

They're still alive. They're still not there. So Butch says, here. And you hear the sound of glass breaking. And that is a mason jar. And then you hear Janet say, Butch, here,'s not done he's not done no hand me something unbelievable so then uh she says hand me something hand me anything i don't care so then uh uh he butch hands her a lamp which he she uses to beat patricia over the head with until it breaks and patricia's

unconscious and they're bleeding out and that's it so then you hear butch say let's go and uh and janet says quote he's done let's go he's done like he's dead now let's go they left also you hear dog barking through the entire fucking thing because the dog's in the cage this whole time at least they didn't kill a fucking dog thank jesus and that thing was losing its mind i'm sure yeah it was barking like it's a fucking pomeranian right if a car drives by it's gonna bark for 20 minutes anyway if there's a brutal two double murder happening in front of it you're never gonna shut the fuck up it's still barking it's still barking now and it's been dead for 25 years it's happened in 93 so uh it's a barrier to get away from the noise that's all you could

do and you just fuck this place is haunted so uh while he while she was striking ronald i really had to struggle to say ronald janet cut her hand on the shards of broken glass from either the mason jar or the lamp that she used. So she was cutting herself there. They go from there to a pond where Janet, she's done. Once she's done, she gives the gun back to him. They drive to a pond nearby in Middletown, throw the gun in the pond, and drive back to Vermont. Covered in blood. Covered in blood, yeah.

in the pond and drive back to Vermont. Covered in blood. Covered in blood, yeah. So, ballistics later on, by the way, will match the ballistics on the bullet to the gun. Steller was shot and stabbed 14 times in the face, neck, and chest. Rodney was shot three times and stabbed six times in the chest

and abdomen. And then they were beaten also. Not quite the perfect crime here. Let's talk about it. Janet and Butch left three bloodstained knives used in the attack on the scene. They did take the gun with them. But I mean, why bother at that point? Blood from her wound. Janet's hand wound was found all over everything.

It was found all over Ronald King's clothing, all on the wall leading to the front door, on the carpet and on the walkway leading away from the home and to the rental car she cut the shit out of herself and left a perfect trail they were literally like okay she went here then she went here and then we follow that's where the car was and they pulled off literally there was the fucking a total trail not great um lisa flag who was a woman in the neighborhood visiting a friend in the neighborhood, observed Janet and Butch leaving the home at approximately three fifty five p.m. Upon leaving, they drove. She watched them drive to a nearby pond up the street there. And that's when the gun was thrown away. So not exactly the slickest of criminals here. By the way, his father, Butcher Senior butcher senior i guess would later identify the gun and

we'll talk about how they found the gun here uh gina returns home from work like we said at 5 30 finds everybody dead and uh you know freaks out obviously so um it's fucking crazy this whole thing this is a wild scene that's a one of the worst can i say it yeah that's a bad murder because yeah and especially when you hear yeah that's every murder every murder where two people are doing it that's the type of shit you're hearing that's that's what it would sound like if you heard it it's all the orders and names people actually fucking being like no no we're doing this like if you were trying to if you had a car up on a thing and you were no no hold that while i did it literally that's the same fucking thing they're doing.

If you're trying to fix something like, no, no, hold that board in place while I drill it. That's what they were doing. It's fucking nuts. Like they were putting together an Ikea desk. My stomach hurts. It's fucking terrible, man. So the gun, like we said, it was found in about three feet of water in a pond behind the Cypress restaurant in Middletown there. How was it found?

Well, it was found because butch fucking showed him where it was really yep uh they ended up talking obviously she's the only suspect here she was seen in the area the rental cars traced back there the whole thing is pretty fucking simple butch ends up they bring them in they put them in separate rooms janet and butch and they say what the fuck's going on here uh he implicates janet in the killings obviously when they're in separate rooms he's like well janet did all this shit and uh you know she kind of made me do some stuff takes him to the pond and everything according to his story he says that janet held him at gunpoint and made him crawl through the doggy door to go into the place and held him at gunpoint and the

whole thing was very you're gonna do this or else else type of thing he said that he heard he heard shots from another part of the house he was in another part of the house he heard shots walked in the room and saw janet fighting with patricia he was like oh what's going on here and uh so uh the witness here that they called him in the newspaper they they wouldn't name him at first he was just the witness who came forward anyway uh butch here he tells the cops that he heard patricius cry janet you've hurt me janet and he said that janet cut the phone line because the phone line was cut too and uh returned to where stellar was laying and smashed the lamp on her head he said that king was on the floor and appeared to be dead and uh that's it he's's like, I walked in and I heard shots. He was dead and she was killing this one.

And I was like, what happened? That's his fucking story. We're going to press play real quick. Yeah. Remind you how the fucking thing really went down. Yeah. So that was it. He said he went and threw the gun away in the pond.

And he told police that Janet threatened to kill him or his closest friend in the world, who's an old woman named Alice, who lives in Vermont. I'll fucking kill Alice's old ass in Vermont or wherever the fuck she goes. If he didn't help her commit the killings and didn't support her alibi. So not only going to help me, I'm going to lie to the fucking cops. You're doing some shit for me, dude. So he said he entered the home like i said uh that whole thing heard the shots everything like that now uh the daughter was also there like we said the daughter was in the car going to get cigarettes this whole deal so uh she says uh

the the other person here the daughter they picked up the car they went down there the daughter uh she said her daughter uh and the male co-worker were the ones who's it's fucking confusing here there's affidavit affidavit statements i can't make out which is the co-worker butch is yeah it's the co-worker but then they're talking about somebody else okay but it's it's hard it's literally in an affidavit that's not copied well got it i can't actually make out the words. So Janet was the only person alive in the room other than Butch is what it says in the affidavit there. Now her ex-husband, they ask him about,

because they're asking about Janet, what kind of person is she? He says that he disputes some of the statements. He said his daughter never entered the house because at first Butch tries to say the daughter was in the house too. But then later on, everybody says the daughter never entered the house because at first Butch tries to say the daughter was in the house, too. But then later on, everybody says the daughter never entered the house. The daughter left to get cigarettes, came back, waited outside for them. They came out, jumped in the car and left.

But she must have noticed that they were fucking covered in blood and her mom was bleeding profusely. Right. Butch is the one who cleaned the rental car before returning it. He cleaned the blood out. So what a guy there. So Henry Lee is the director of Connecticut State Police Forensic Labs. He says that the crimes were, by looking at the whole thing, were planned and carried out by more than one person. He says that blood drops on the stairs, walls, and outer steps in the walkway from the wounded person leaving the scene.

The DNA tests indicated the blood is Janet Griffin's and it's inconsistent with Stellar or King or Butch or the daughter. It's hers, basically. So they question Janet. I mean, she's got to be. What's she going to fucking say here? They got her dead to rights. They have her on tape. The jig is up.

Yeah, jig is up. So they tell her that she tells police that Jasmine, she tells him that Butch said that your daughter was getting cigarettes while this was going on and all this type of shit. They also tell her, look, Butch said that he thought you were planning to go to try to win Gina back, not to kill her. Is this true? Butch said that, you know, he gave you this gun a few weeks ago and all this sort of shit. And as you said, you wanted it. Butch said he

gave her the gun because he didn't want to have it because he used to try to kill himself a couple months ago when his grandmother died. So he said that he tried to kill himself and he didn't want to have it in his possession. So, yeah when his grandmother died so he said that he tried to kill himself and he didn't want to have it in his possession so uh yeah his grandmother raised him as we said gotta get beyond it butch yeah you gotta do it butch so uh yeah the oh my god man this is fucking crazy now

they ask her where were you on the day of the you know day of the killings and janet says that she went shopping with butch in new york that's where she was like that's funny because butch says he was there watching you kill people so there's a little discrepancy in where you were i'm not sure about that she said i was it wasn't even in middletown that day uh she uh after she was told that she was a suspect she said that's i don't know what you're talking about how could you even say that this is news this is ridiculous and then they arrest her the next day obviously and we're like you're out of your fucking mind. They arrest her in Vermont where she was.

And she tries to fight extradition to the next state down. Like, no. So tries to fight it. And they believe that Melody was there as well. They talk about that. But they give her immunity on the whole thing. The daughter. Finally, December 24th, christmas eve they decide to

kick her ass back to connecticut here she finally decides to drop her fight for the extradition thing because it's a you're not going to win it's a losing battle it's a losing fucking battle basically like it's not like you're trying to not be extradited from you know fucking syria or something it's like you're it's not not another country. It's the next state. They're going to cooperate. Yeah, that's it. And murder? They'll send you right over. Yeah.

They don't arrest Butch for five more months. Really? They don't decide that Butch wasn't just a victim to five months later. I don't know why, because that tape is clearly... How long did it take him to listen to that shit? Listen to the tape? Okay, never mind. Arrest him, too. Oh, Jesus.

Did you guys hear this? Oh, fuck. He's just as bad as her. He's a bad man. Arrest him, too. Oh, Jesus. Did you guys hear this? Oh, fuck. He's just as bad as her. He's a bad man. At least awfully helpful here. So, evidence, obviously, here. Someone triggered the answering machine, which is the biggest piece of evidence, along with bloody knives, DNA evidence, fucking witnesses that saw it.

Literally every way you can solve a case is in this fucking thing like i don't even know how else you could fucking do it honestly unless like there was a person filming it from across the street like you even got somebody involved uh cooperating with the police everything's there everything it's an accomplice knives weapons witnesses dna it's all here accomplice is pointing out the murder weapon that you put underwater. Yeah. It's all there. If went and found it.

So how else would he know? Yeah. They everything, man. They testified about the DNA later on and all this type of shit. The state's attorney, assistant state's attorney, Timothy Liston, said, you know, this is a pretty open and shut case. You know, we're we're expecting to win this one. Basically, we're already working on all the others. Matter of fact, yeah, we got a pretty open and shut case. You know, we're expecting to win this one, basically. We're already working on all the others, matter of fact. Yeah, we got a lot of other stuff to do.

So the reaction, people are a little bit shocked by this, obviously, here. Natalie Juergen, who's the co-worker who drove her a bunch of times. This is in the press. She says this quote. I don't know what happened. Are you fucking stupid? I do. You knew what you knew was going to happen.

Janet and Gina were the best of friends. They were lovers and best friends. They were all friends. happened are you fucking stupid i do you knew what you knew what was gonna happen janet and gina were the best of friends they were lovers and best friends they were all friends to the press afterwards this lady acted like i can't believe i'm so shocked no you're not you heard remember the fireball she told you about yeah she ended up testifying obviously later on she had to get fucking immunity to testify because she was fucking driving her down to facilitate a murder plot after she knew she was fucking driving her down to facilitate a murder plot after she knew she was going to murder her. So shocking.

Yeah. You needed immunity after that because it's something you could be charged for. You're so shocked that you needed immunity. I don't know what happened. Super weird. Not that she wanted to kill anybody, but it's like, dude, you fucking you knew it was up. Don't act like you're shocked. Shocked is not the word.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Feels like she didn't know that shocked means didn't know. No. Yeah, I don't think she's like, I'm totally shocked. That means like this is very expected, right? I'm shocked that you guys are shocked. That's what I'm shocked about. I failed English.

I'm not sure. It's not going to work. I'm bad at vocabulary. I don't know. So her. I'm just shocked you guys didn't know because I knew and I didn't have anything to do with this.

In the press, people can't say enough nice things about Janet. Oh, God. She's a loving mother and grandmother who insists on getting gifts for her godchild on the anniversary of his baptism, even from jail, even though she was arrested.

She calls her oldest daughter and her ex-husband as well several times a week to touch base. She writes letters to her grandchildren every day. This is while she's in jail. Her daughter says, quote, With all the problems she has, or her ex-husband, I'm sorry.

With all the problems she has, she's still very concerned for us. It's amazing. She's amazing. People in her hometown, she has five children, Janet, by the way. Five, yeah. People in town, here's one woman, Tammy Johnson, who's an employee of Wash Bucklers, a combination laundromat bar tanning salon. We have found it, everyone. The most white trash business in the Americas.

It is Washbuckler's Combination Laundromat Bar Tanning Salon. It is essentially what every dude at the Jersey Shore wants in one building. Oh, man. Gym tan laundry at one place? I could do that. I could open up a place and be full of guys like me right so she says she couldn't believe it yeah she uh she says quote she didn't strike me as a person who would do anything like that well i hope not she's like wow that's not a surprise she seemed like a real fucking piece of work no uh she was also uh you

know people from the place she worked at said quote one person says an employee of washbucklers another one she must have hung out at washbucklers a lot a totally different person has everything the first one was tammy johnson this is valerie eaton she said quote people up here will never forget about it they know the they know the other side of her the good side so uh the father here butch senior said that the the police the reporters knocked on his door he opened the door saw those reporters and said quote he's innocent that's all i'm gonna say and slam the door done and done so uh yeah natalie also described butch natalie jerrigan also described butch as quote a gentleman who would never hurt a butterfly. And also, another person who knew Butch said that Butch is, quote, as gentle as a lamb.

But John Jasmine, the ex-husband of Janet, said that he described Butch as a loose cannon that's capable of almost anything, which is good to protect Janet. So she's going to try to put all the blame on him. Of course. That's the thing here. So Janet's in jail, which is not easy for someone with MS. And we don't know if, because stress is a trigger of MS. A murder trial is a huge stressor for anybody.

I think. So we don't know if her MS is actually flaring up or if she's playing it up for the court. But she comes into court in a fucking wheelchair every day. Of course she does. She comes in in a wheelchair, really puts it on. I mean, like we said, we don't know if it's really caught up to her or she's just trying to play it up for the sympathy of the jury i'm not sure but uh she's still alive so yeah i mean whatever so anyway um she suffers hard there's a

she's being held on 750 000 bail the family can't afford to get her out and so uh her her daughter says my one hope is that they speed things along because it's been a year that she's been in this jail i saw my mother every single day of my life the fact that she's in jail is always on my mind so the trial comes up okay this is uh some interesting shit here jury is seven men five women not that it matters but if i can find a jury breakdown i like to give what it is good detail um during the trial they're told that she's not the only person charged the jurors are told that you know janet's not the only person here there's also butch and uh who's awaiting a separate trial on two counts of accessory to murder and capital you know all this shit so they have to add that in there the big fight is over the tape now there's enough evidence

without the tape to convict her fine but it's all but without the prosecutor really wants it but without the tape she can blame it on butch a lot more and her in the wheelchair and him coming in not in the wheelchair it looks okay whereas if you hear the tape you go oh shit that's a never would have thought that happened yeah like if she told her side of the story and and you would believe it and then you hear the tape you'd be like holy shit she's completely fucking lied what a fucking asshole so the defense fights to block the introduction of the tape obviously and uh they argue that the tape was largely inaudible you know because there were some struggle noises and that the partial recording couldn't even be authenticated it's like it can be authenticated i mean pretty easily yeah it's in the fucking tape recorder and you know their voices and she says janet janet janet they're

identifying each other who you know they could have been playing charades the night before she was over there and she's screaming no janet no no janet no that's you're so wrong this is not you suck at pictionary janice janet let me fucking draw no janet she mentioned his name too right she mentioned fucking butch's name too so they were all there ronald was there too that's what happened she kept screaming no apparently she's really good at it not good at it at all. So the prosecutors say that, you know, it doesn't matter. They want the tape in.

So the judge ends up allowing the tape to be played after deciding that the prosecutor had proven its authenticity based on circumstantial evidence of the talking and other people testifying to that being her voice and his voice also so they do that it's a seven minute tape seven minutes of that think about that that scene i played for you that i said that happened over seven minutes so it's awful was played for the jury four times oh god 28 minutes of this shit oh dude that's, that's brutal. That's fucking brutal. It's longer than a sitcom. Shit. With commercials, a sitcom's 21. So the prosecutor conceded that several portions are hard to discern, but told jurors that a woman believed to be Patricia can repeatedly, obviously, been begging for her life and Janet and everything like that.

Day two of the trial, they have to halt the trial. They have to halt the trial because Janet is too distraught to continue um she is she got her mom her mother is ill in vermont and she quote became too distraught to go on so yeah she was visibly upset when she's brought into the courtroom she's been now she like i said she comes in in the wheelchair and all that one of her attorneys said that she just received a phone call a few minutes earlier that her 79-year-old mother had been rushed to the hospital after being found unconscious and unresponsive and possibly had had a stroke. So they said she was in critical condition on a respirator in the intensive care unit. So they said they would halt proceedings for a moment, adjourn for the rest of the day at least, and go from there. This actually, two witnesses that were going to be called can't be called.

One of them was a woman, Lisa Flagg, who saw them go away. And another one was Gina, who was going to testify. Cochia, who said that, you know, she was going to tell the whole story of what happened and you know everything leading up to their relationship and all that sort of thing here but the judge said they were willing to give her a minute to give the defendant a day to compose herself here about

that I don't know that's it there the judge said quote I urge you defense attorneys to do the best you can do to console your client and prepare her for the day's testimony tomorrow. So I'm giving her the afternoon and then fuck that. We're coming back here in the morning. Yeah.

So, by the way, she's up for the death penalty, by the way. That's this is a death penalty case. So Juergen, Natalie Juergen, she obviously testified for all this shit. Janet, the stakeout, the fucking car, the ether, the whole thing. She's up there saying they're real shocked about everything. The forensics comes in, describes, you know, has charts with 14 stab wounds in the face, neck and chest. And it's not good here. Yeah.

Also testified that both Stellar and King died slow, bloody, painful deaths as well, because they did. Finally, I think they were knocked unconscious to where they bled to death eventually. With lamps and mason jars. Fucking horrific. This is a mess of a murder. Also, it testified that they probably remained alive for about 10 minutes before bleeding to death, after they were finally left for dead. So, who knows if they regained consciousness and just had a hard time because they were weak from blood loss it's fucking

horrific man unbelievable so there's a defense obviously i mean it's not very good yeah um it took the prosecution three weeks to lay out their case because they had to lay out everything we laid out the whole relationship the whole thing it's a fucking lot so you had to build that to get to otherwise you're like why is this happening it's exhausting it's a lot man so uh they had to lay out the case for three weeks about this shit the defense opened its case and was closed in less than two hours defense was two hours long from three weeks of prosecution i only need two hours to explain away all of that and it's not her she doesn't testify obviously uh they call just one witness and uh that witness is uh everon j sprecker who is one of two attorneys for butch they call butch and they call the the attorney up and uh they say that uh uh they say that they're trying to establish a trail of blood leading from the

murder scene and the stains and all that shit and they're trying to establish a trail of blood leading from the murder scene and the stains and all that shit. And they're trying to say basically that the defense is trying to say that they didn't, it could have been his blood. They didn't never checked him for wounds is what they're saying. So over the objections of the prosecutor, this lawyer told the jury that the authorities never asked for a sample of his blood to be typed because they just found it was.

But they already tested and it was Janet's. So there was no other blood. There was there was Stellar's blood, King's blood and Griffin's blood. There's no other blood in the house. There's only three bloods. So he had no blood. So it really doesn't fucking matter anyway. So in the defense closing and in the closing arguments defense lawyer says

that it's not clear who did what to whom not positive he said that the gun belonged to butch and the police never tested his blood so you know you never know maybe it's it's you know could have been all him she could have been waiting in the car for all we know um so april 22nd 1996 she wheels herself in again uh for the verdict here um this is three years almost three years after the murder and uh they've reached a verdict in four hours of deliberation spread over three days what three days okay what the fuck took four three days for four hours 12 lives uh no the jurors sought clarification from from the judge on certain things about criminal liability and that's what the the delay was uh basically the judge had to explain that janet could be held liable for both murders if the state proved beyond

a reasonable doubt that she inflicted some of the fatal wounds to each victim even if they believe another person contributed other fatal wounds. So that's all good. So he said, quote, It's not essential that the defendant, Janet Griffin, be the sole cause of death. So with that, they went back in. Half hour later, came back out and said guilty of capital felony murder. Oh, boy.

Not good. Punishable by either death or life in prison without the possibility of parole life without now the uh uh the jury here uh the uh uh hinged this hinged on the jury's findings that she murdered two people in a violent rage because it's got to be part of it yeah so it's two counts of murder one count of capital felony murder not great so obviously So obviously, she's been deep shit here. Friends and family in the whole town, and everybody's kind of going a little bit fucking nuts. Gina was there watching the trial, Gina Cochia. She runs out of the courtroom in tears about the whole thing.

They asked her whether she thought justice had been served, and she said yes, it was, and that's all she would say. And she said, yes, it was. And that's all she would say. Now, now, Stellar, her brother, Jerry Vandercar, this guy is fucking funny. He he will say more. Yeah, I like this guy. He's funny as shit. He says that he praised the prosecution.

He was talking about 100 pieces of circumstantial evidence in the trial, including the answering machine and all this type of shit. And he says, quote, This just shows there's still some decent people left in the world and there's 12 of them right in there. So that's not bad. Yeah. One of the attorneys, though, her attorneys said he accepted it and understood the juror's decision, but that him and his partner here were already preparing for the next stage of the appeal here. He said, quote, We look forward to being able to show the jury who Janet Griffin is in the days to come.

She's a 49-year-old woman, and her life didn't begin that day. So they're going to get her not dead. We don't think that. No. No, we don't. We think she fucked up bad that day. Bad enough to go to jail. Yeah, I think her life ended that day.

Yeah. So pre-sentencing here the uh they said that they're going to seek the death penalty on the grounds that the murders were committed in a particularly cruel heinous and depraved manner yeah i mean if that's the whatever so uh meditated as fuck that was premeditated it was cruel it was everything so uh the same jury that decided guilt decide the the death or not death question as well do you like that um it depends on the state it also depends on maybe uh how vicious the crime you know what i mean because i mean it is nice to say 12 people is better than one but also those

12 people could all be morons whereas i know that guy went to law school so maybe well i mean like the same jury does the same versus the people that say um yeah that could go either way because i think that's six of one half dozen of the other because you could be you could be a new jury and that shit the way it's presented to you could be way more harshly than it came across in trial or vice versa. Exactly. So I'm kind of it's a wash. Also, you could have a bias from the trial that you don't like this person. That's my point. Either way, it could go, though. That could work in your favor.

It could work against you. Listen to that fucking tape. And you're yeah, you're angry. Yeah, no, it's true. Well, they're going to hear the tape either way in this penalty phase to know whether it was cruel and all that shit. So the jury will remain impaneled for several more weeks while they prepare for the penalty uh phase here janet's sentence will be determined under the former death penalty law they had updated it since then which was in effect when she was charged in november 1993 under that law she could be spared the death penalty if the

jury finds a single mitigating factor just one one not enough to outweigh none of that shit. One such as mental incapacity or anything they could pick, basically. So they're going for the death penalty since the. Oh, by the way, since it took over administration of the death penalty in 1894, state of Connecticut has never executed a woman ever of six people residing on death row at the time all of them were men as well in connecticut so uh yeah as we'll talk about too in our bonus episode about women in the death penalty it's uh it's fast it's very fucking rare since i want to say since the they reinstated it in the 70s women are one percent of executions in this country out of a, one person.

199 to 1. Have we killed even 100 since then? 100 women? No. No, we've killed eight women. We've killed fuckloads of men. Really? Or 15 women, which means we've killed 1,500 men. We've killed Texas and Florida alone.

We've killed fucking 1,000 on their own and then spread out mostly here. Yeah. Fucking Alabama. I'm sure South is involved in that fucking alabama i'm sure south is involved in that somewhere uh louisiana i'm sure oh yeah they probably love it there love it so uh yeah they said by this is a psych a law professor here this is a vivian berger of a former prosecutor and capital crimes expert who teaches at columbia university's law school sounds like she knows what she's talking about yeah yeah she says that uh uh

women are less likely to commit the kinds of serious crimes that warrant that sentence number one definitely most of the women it's not like it's an equal number of of murders and women are getting it one percent of the time men are committing a vast majority of these fucking murders i mean it's clear right uh he says when women are convicted of such crimes jurors tend to show more sympathy toward them and thus are less likely to impose death. They look at them. They don't feel like I'm afraid if this person was that they're going to kill more. And it's really when the murders that they do commit, it's against another woman or a child. It's real.

Sometimes it's a man. Yeah, but it's very rare. You never have a woman breaking into houses. That's what I'm saying. People unless there's a guy with them telling them to do it exactly for meth money yeah that's what i'm saying it's a that's the difference right she says this is before the penalty phase this is the professor called the boogeyman yeah well she says like this griffin is not someone any juror expected to see uh to expected to see end up in this situation unless for some dramatic reason she's a grandmother

not someone who looks like a monster alien you'd be afraid to meet in a dark night although I am pretty fucking I'm frightened of her but not only in the house otherwise I feel like you just push her right over she's got MS she's older she's fucking small I feel like I could just shove her right down

come on yeah I'll kick her right in the chest I'll send her fucking I will send her into a fucking dumpster aluminum dumpster take that grandma got a piece of me she's got it wants to kill me not just in jamaica to see a woman and kick her in the chest so she's got a hundred year old gun i'm not quite that's the other thing yeah so five mitigate the state law indicates five mitigating factors that may be considered, including mental capacity under unusual duress, shit like that. So that's how this goes.

Let's see here. They said that there the defense says there's no evidence that the defendant exhibited a violent nature prior to the events for which he's been convicted of. for what she's been convicted of. The motion also says that she demonstrated redeeming value as a human being through her generous dealings with others and her background, character, and history suggests that she's unlikely to ever be violent to others in the future.

Her daughter pleads for her life here. She's the most important person in my life and my children's lives as well. My mother is the stabilizer in my life. She manages to find hope when all others have given up. My childhood dream was to be just like my mom wow um yeah she has no prior criminal record her friends and family all fucking testify saying describe her as a loving doting mother who watches over her five grandchildren from prison her five children and three grandchildren from

prison she's a former softball coach brownie leader the husband should have been he should have known he should have known yes sorry the lesbian sir yeah yeah you didn't know it you're coaching softball it's one thing and i get if you're just playing it's fun but you're coaching right i'm sorry is that into it no and oh and also was the head of the local fire department ladies auxiliary in her hometown of. Yeah. She can carry a fire hose. Apparently before this is pre. Yeah.

Yeah. So her all our other daughter said, quote, she's a great mom. She's always present for us. We all depend on her a lot emotionally. The kids are always her priority. So but the prosecution obviously had her had his heinous and unusual crew unusual cruel and all that sort of shit. So this is four days of deliberations on this. The jury comes out and says that the aggravating factors exist in each of the two murders, but they also find at least one mitigating factor.

What is that? of the two murders but they also find at least one mitigating factor they find mitigating factor uh that uh they said that she was a family person had no prior criminal record of violence they had a couple of shit like that mitigating here that's a mitigator here that's it so uh they said that she was under extreme duress uh from the relationship they just didn't want to kill her no they were finding a way not to kill her, basically. So you, ma'am, may fuck off life in prison without parole for her. Yeah. So they talked to the jurors afterwards.

And this is always very interesting here. One of the jurors called Janet's jealous rage out of character. It's a guy named Mark Smola. He said in an interview that each member of the panel had no trouble coming up with a mitigating factor. He said that he was particularly impressed that Griffin had once cared for young to say for a young disabled girl for several years. He said, quote, In my mind, that was the thing that did it for me. He said he said others cited her many character references. Had jurors been applying to the law?

He he said the panel might still be in deliberating so they're they're they were emotionally they liked her they felt bad of a mental yeah a lot of people did nice things you know i mean he a lot of people did a lot of people did nice things i mean i'm sure hitler was nice to his dog but yeah that means nothing and other he had a girlfriend she was sweet he was yeah exactly ronald king's father uh talked fred king he said quote it's a hard thing to sentence someone to die he said the jurors would have had to live with it the rest of their lives as far as i was concerned i didn't hear anything out of the norm that would make anybody feel sorry

for yeah i didn't fucking care about her uh gina finally spoke publicly rather than just saying yes the one time she says quote in my heart i feel the death penalty itself would have done nothing in the area of bringing back ron and lynn uh which is fair yeah um she says quote janet is where she belongs she can't hurt anyone else she was a friend and with a friend finding out you uh they're your worst enemy is horrifying i would say so um now uh patricia's brother here was relieved that the trial was over but he thought that janet got off easy he said the jury did a good job with the information but would have arrived at a far different conclusion had the new death penalty law applied which is weighing it which is true it would have probably had to do that. Seven minutes, James.

Seven fucking minutes. It took her to kill two people. That was in the middle of it. Right. So it was going on for a few before that. She beat the living shit out of these people. And stabbed them and shot them. The death penalty is not.

I don't know that that's out of the realm of possibility. That's what I mean. That's crazy. Yeah. So the prosecutor said, I think it's a sufficient sentence. It's the second toughest sentence in Connecticut. So he said that he was satisfied. That's a hard word to use when two people have been murdered, but he's satisfied.

So there we go. She's being held at the York Correctional Facility, which is a high security prison for women in East Lime. And, yeah, also her daughter said, quote, We're very grateful to the jury. We love our mom dearly. At least she can go visit them now. So Gina also praised the jury and was angered by the defense portrayal as Griffin is a lot of Janet as a loving mother and grandmother. She says, quote, Lynn Stellar was a wonderful mother, too, but she didn't have a chance to become a grandma. There you go.

That's the that's the end of it. I think she really just fucking stuck it in there. So July 1997, before Butch's trial, because he's going to go on trial, too. Right. He, though, they can either convict him of capital murder or manslaughter. There's a charge difference. He decides that he actually there's a motion by his lawyers to not call him Butch anymore. Doesn't want to be called Butch in any court documents.

Doesn't want to be allowed to be referred to as Butch by witnesses. Doesn't want Butch. I don't want to think about lesbians at all. It ruined my life. Well, I want to go by Gordon. Gordon. Well, he says his his attorney says that the name is needlessly inflammatory. He says they filed a motion.

It sounds like a tough guy to a judge to order the removal of all references of butch here and i think they did because in the court documents it never fucking says butch ever it says gordon fucking lee for you in the second and that's it fascinating never they might say known as butch but they never repeated at all so uh yeah they said that uh anything like that the lawyers also want to prevent the prosecutor or any of the witnesses from referring to him as butch he says quote i think traditionally names like butch and tiny have been associated in people's minds with criminality really tiny i guess liston lister tiny liston the lister the actor yeah yeah he's a bad dude crime that's the only tiny

i can think of i think of like a jockey yeah i don't think of i guess gangsters used to have like tiny that's not a gangster name no no isn't there isn't everything's a gangster lefty fucking curly they're all gangster names i guess but butch i don't know two toes he uh he said also the name could be construed in some courthouse conversations as Butcher, and he didn't want it to be like that since there was knives involved. Oh, great point. Yeah, he said two knives were involved here, so we don't want Butcher or anything like that. The lawyer also says, I'd be just as opposed to it if his nickname were Sonny. I think to refer to people by their nicknames trivializes the judicial process.

So his trial comes up. We'll just buzz very quickly through this uh they play the tape obviously he testifies it's his only way he testifies it's 10 women and uh 10 women two men on the jury by the way he weeps at how janet forced him to do this he says says, quote, when I listen to the tape, I hear things very differently. Everyone does, is what he said. They asked him, you were in the kitchen? And he said, yes. Then the prosecutor said, did you say do it? And he said, I'm not sure.

We can listen. They said, Liston then says, quote, do you say here? Asking to where to point the tape, blah, blah, blah, with the knife. Did you hand it to her and say here? And he said, I'm not sure. And did he say, did you say let's go? And he said, I'm not sure. Then Butch said, quote, it's hard to know whose voices those are.

It could have been my voice. I'm not saying it's not my voice, but I'm not saying it is, basically. Yeah. That's funny. Butch also seemed to forget about this. He basically they brought it up. He said he'd never sought treatment for alcoholism and has never smoked weed. Meanwhile, he's sought treatment for alcoholism and has been arrested for weed. So they're like, you're out of your fucking mind.

Yeah. He said that he could when they brought that up. He said that there's parts of his past that were private and he's ashamed of it. That's what he said. So there's that. And I assume he's probably thinking of from what it sounds like. He seems like a tormented soul on the gay thing. So not sound positive.

No, he doesn't seem like he's taking it and empowering himself with it and being like, I'm going to go out and find a... No. He's not taking it in pride. He's very ashamed of himself. And that's too bad, man. It is. Well, then some of the other details that they found was they asked him if he had a picture of a cross tattooed on his back.

He said, yes. They said, let me ask you something. Did Janet have a tattoo as well? Oh, boy. And he said, yes. And they said, what was her tattoo? And tattoo and he responded quote a swastika what this janet griffin is a fucking onion she's got swastika tats bro swastika tats in a wheelchair hacking she's a fucking whack job loving grandma loving grandma unless you're Jewish unless you're a Jewish grandma holy fucking shit um yeah so he says that she was waving the gun around this is his quote she was

waving the gun around she kept saying it's either her or me and I'm dying anyway basically why are you doing this Janet Griffin I said please let me help you let's leave now and i won't tell anybody he was saying i was trying to convince her not to do it and uh he said that he reminded her of her grandchildren and he said that only got her more upset quote she told me not to mention her grandchildren again and to stop crying and to quote just do what she just do what she said and i wouldn't get hurt she's a fucking gangster gangster. So he said, I just stood there. I was frozen. I was afraid.

She was clicking the gun at me and screaming and clicking the gun because it was empty. So then he says that after it ran out, he gave her more bullets, and we found out about that. He described being frozen, and he described watching her stab the victims, and he was just, I didn't know what to do.

He said that when they got there, as we were walking to knock on the back door, I turned around and saw Janet holding a gun. Everything about Janet Griffin's face changed. She was no longer the Janet Griffin I knew. And they said, tell her how or tell us how her face changed. And he said it was cold and I was afraid of her. Yeah. Yeah. So you were going to knock on the back door, not just go through the dog door rather than

go through the front door, which would be the normal thing to do. So, yeah. Her face changed and then I knew why she had a swastika. Then I knew, oh shit, she's a Nazi. So verdict comes in guilty of first degree manslaughter. Okay. So they let him off. What sentence will he get here?

Well, this is up to the judge now because it's not the death penalty thing so the juror they talked to the jury for woman charlene jenna jenna sec and she said quote in my heart i'd like to see gordon get time served as a penalty she wants him to go home time served oh he is not going to do well in prison that's why uh well no or he'll be you never know that's what i mean it depends and i'm not saying that as a joke a cheap joke the guys get fucked in jail i read a lot of prison but sometimes gay guys enjoy jail not for that way it's a certain it's a it's a structured thing psychological of the criminal mind more than gay guy it's it's a prison thing if you read books you'll know what i'm talking about i'm not trying to say gay guys like to be in prison you can because

they want to get fucked but that's not what i'm saying it's just that you don't have the i mean there's a fear there still because a big guy doing something horrible to you is obviously a possibility yeah but there's there's a certain comfort you have and i'm not afraid of of the actual act of it and the gayness isn't looked on in prison as a detriment to your life. Yeah, they don't look at you bad. It's a different thing. So he says, quote, this she keeps going on,

quote, in some respects, he's a victim also because what he witnessed that day will always be in his memory. I often wonder what I would have done if I had been in the same, if I had been in that kitchen, I probably would have done anything a person wielding a gun and a knife would have told me to do.

It's beautiful. That's what she said. These people are so understanding. Sentencing? Yeah. You, sir, may fuck off 30 years. Okay. Yeah, 30 years.

I was going to say 25 to life. And he will not be eligible for parole until after he serves 25 and a half years of that sentence. Whoa. So it's harsh. It's harsh. It's harsh. That's not an easy sentence. That's a long one.

That's a strong sentence here. Yeah. The Ronald King's sister said nothing can take away the pain of the last four years, but at least we can find comfort that the killers have been taken away and we can get on with our lives. His father, Butch's father, says, quote, My son son has always been a good boy he's never been in trouble before he was always helpful to everybody in my heart i could never believe he could do such a terrible thing i love you son that's what he said in the right dad it's a great dad yeah but he was it would have been better if he was around when he was a kid maybe he wouldn't have done this shit maybe maybe if he was more secure

yeah maybe if he was more secure and you know with his dad's help a little support of who he really is might have helped not saying it would have maybe be less timid and less apt to fall in with people like this that's what i mean who knows what the psychology is there finally middletown police detective robert barone who's one of the lead investigators he said the verdict he thought was fair but he wasn't saying that he wasn't buying that the defense said saying that he thought was fair but he wasn't saying he wasn't buying that the defense said saying that he was under duress during the killings he said quote i think it's a smoke screen listen to the tape he doesn't sound combative and fighting he sounds like someone who had full knowledge of what was going on and was there to assist which i have to agree with on

that now in 2019 this was covered on an investigation discovery show, which I didn't fucking watch. I just it was on the Google search list. Does anybody watch this investigation discovery? If it pops on Hulu from time to time, I watch it. It was on the series Diabolical. Oh, I didn't watch the episode called Recording Evil. I mean, that sounds no idea. So much.

It looks like I did a Connecticut inmate search and could not find uh butch i believe butch is out because butch's time would have started in 90 early 94 when he got arrested so he should be out 25 and a half years would have been last year yeah that would have been last year so i assume they would have let him out right away janet on the other hand is in the york correctional institution. It says on maximum sentence for her, 999 years, 99 months, 999 days. So she is... It's a social distortion song.

She's fucked. It's all over with there. She's in for life. That, everybody, is Middletown, Connecticut, and one hell of a fucking weird story. I have to say, man, that is... What a fucking way to go. That's a wild one, man. It's crazy shit, and I don't even know what to say, man, that is what a fucking way to go. That's a wild one, man.

It's crazy shit. And I don't even know what to say about that. That's the answering machine. The answering machine is what really clinched it. Because once they got that, it was like, that's what shows how depraved it is to me. What, James? What? Everyone can blame each other till it's recorded.

Terrible thought. What if he didn't make it out? You know what I mean? Yeah. That's the other thing. He might have died in prison. We don know he could have passed away i mean he was 40 at the time you know 60 easily easily got some kind of cancer or something heart attack passed i'm impressed that she's lasted this long with ms that's what i'm saying she's in her 70s yeah not

good medication she's in her fucking 70s it's not but she's 74 years old. Still in prison with the MS. And with treatment, maybe it wasn't as bad as it would have been otherwise. And who knows? So that's that, though. If you enjoy that story, there's a way to tell the world. You can do it. Get on Apple Podcasts, that purple icon, and give us five stars. Doesn't matter what you say.

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because i love the movie when i was a kid but let's face it she's a fucking mermaid the whole premise is a little stupid so uh eugene levy also very funny in that fucking movie so he's the one who's following them around all the time trying to get pictures of her as a mermaid and shit he's a journalist so uh yeah check all that out and see us do that hang out with us do everything if you want to be a producer of the show actually wait if you want to follow us on social media right let's let's let's start out tell you what we're gonna grab a boob before we try to you know shove it in you know what i'm saying let's be nice here before we try to fucking yeah grab it and dry let's grab a boob at least

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We have the old personal ads that we read. This week, it's about the minnesota vikings love boat scandal which regardless of being a football team it's 30 guys took a hundred strippers to two party boats and did gross things and got in trouble and it's really fucking crazy story so and that's everybody invited you know what i mean yeah yeah that's all invited everyone came in a limo yeah let's put's put it that way. That's on purpose. Oh, athletes are gross. And for Small Town Murder this week, we are going to do the death penalty and women and

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But I need it more, Jimmy. Tell you what. I need to hear positive. We've heard terrible things. Jesus. We've heard a recording of a horrible murder. Give me a recording of a list of wonderful people. I need it right now. Hit me.

This week's executive producers are Jordan Bennett, Sarah McMillan. What is that? Marion Kahn, Melinda Myers, Melissa Workmeister. Gina Kudajaroff. Keith Blank. Clay Thorson. TJ Smith. Will McG... What is that?

Reag? Reg? Reggae. Hey. It's a W, not even an R. Jeff Watson. Joe Augustine. Elizabeth Gallego.

Gallego? Amanda Lamb. Tara Davis. Jessica Martin. Denali Hyatt. Michelle Findling. Nicole Benson, Jennifer Revis, Travis Rodeo Balea, Monique Trejo, and Grace Robichaux.

Thank you all so much for what you guys do. We can't do it without you. Other producers this week are Purple Pandas Creations, and Jesse in Nashville had a daughter. Congrats, Jesse. And his wife is going to have a C-section this week. Oh, shit. Well, congratulations. Terrifying and congratulations.

Good work. Santiago Quinones, Brendan Ables, Nathan Dixon, Liz Vasquez, Connor Kadis, I think, Nija, Naya, Bunny. I don't know. Peyton Meadows, Ryan Coffey, Don Davis, James Martyr, Daniel Carey, Mahmoud Abdel-Jaber, Djibbar, Jobber. It's not Jobber, right? It's Jaber. Jibbar. It's an E.

Jaber. Alexander Schonk, Alexandria Schonk. Hey. DJ with no last name. Dakota Harrington, Garrig Rock, Jenny Bukowski, Sarah McFall, KJ Quintanilla, I think, Nia, Connor Sundstrom, John DeLong, Diane E, what is that? Taylor, it's what it is, Autumn with no last name, Laura Reinhart, Sonny Johansson, Kathleen Logan, Daniel Bocher, Deborah Finney and her weirdo's birthday is this week. She didn't give his name, but apparently he's fantastic. Hey, fantastic man.

Happy birthday. Or it's a friend. What's a galleta? A galleta? Is that a girlfriend? Is that a mom? A grandmother? Really?

A Puerto Rican woman? I have no idea. It could be a relative. I don't know. It's her weirdo. That's all I know. Okay. Happy birthday to the most beautiful Melanie Martin. So if there are other Melanie Martins, you're ugly.

Yeah, there's only one that's beautiful. It's that one. Everyone else, line up. Cynthia Cruz, Aaron Meadows, Brandon Magg, Dustin Brennan, Kelly Michael, Janice Hill, Jesse Pitts. That's the one having a baby. Mark Egan, Ben Weaver, Aaron with no last name, Chad Haas, Iron Tree Craftworks, Katar Zina, Nia Zilka. Zilka? Whoa. No. Jacqueline with no last name, Chad Haas, Iron Tree Craftworks, Katarzyna Niedzielka, Jacqueline

with no last name, Heather Brough, Marina Radford, Amber Dean, Margaret Lubert, Amanda Dixon, Mindy Samples, Kent 1988, not the other ones, James jordan uh jeremy phillips elise finn fast knocked david sukle uh hayley roberson christian and bailey rachel uh or bellis aj with no last name julia schuster povilas bakavis nope andrew richardson ty lynch jeremy marco uh lindsey Andrew Richardson, Ty Lynch, Jeremy Marco, Lindsay Shaheen, Nathan Little, Amanda Knight or Mandy Knight, Jessica Cordeva, Cordova, Ari McCormick, Kelly Redmond, Tabitha Taylor, Thomas Smith, Ashley Vio, Jean Edwards, Mitzi Lutke, John Abel. Carly Mann. Beth. Beth Gold. Jonathan Wilder. Danny Sawyer. I'm getting terrible at this. Brandon with no last name.

Molly McCann. McCoyne. I don't know what I wrote. I apologize. Robert Ward. Deb Finley. Finney? Oh, I said that.

Blake Farnsworth. Stacy McGillen. Matt Steffel. And happy anniversary to his wonderful wife. He didn't give her name, so she's not that wonderful, apparently. Get on the fucking ball, Matt. Wonderful lady. Happy anniversary. You and the nameless birthday man should really have a commiseration session.

My husband will love it if you tell him happy birthday. That's all the information I get. We don't know. We don't know. We don't know. I don't know you. We'd love to. I'd love to. Charlotte would know last name.

Katie Ball. Melanie Deisch, I think. Dish. Elliot Bressler. Paul Abbey. Kenneth Hensley. Misty D. Ellis. Very specific.

Tracy Meek. Schutz. Joanne. No. Jonna. Jonna Runesvall. No. Arie would know last. E-R-E. Ar Meek shoots. Joanne, no. Jonna, Jonna Runesvall. No. Eri would know last. E-R-E. E-R-E.

E-R-E. E-R-E. E-R-E. Whoa. Jimmy just had a stroke. That's just how the Kennedys say E-R-E. E-R-E. I made an E-R-E. Elise W. Lauren is proud of your boldness and your spirit.

So you've got a great friend, apparently. Hey. Congratulations. You're awesome. Sarah Hamill, Jose Vasquez, Patricia Erb, Zane Sawyer, Emily Erickson, Diane Taylor, Mercy Shook, Melissa Burnett, Shayla, Shayla West john no joan kosa vote kasanovich shit matt farmer nicole with no last name henry ruff uh brian riddle colton haney jason with no last name nathan martin jared young what is that lynn lynn linton robert ward jesse dull jesse james

yeah and there's and then chris james also uh heidi war, Karen Deckar, Shamika has big tits, says her husband. I don't know. Congratulations to Shamika for her large breasts. Feels awkward, but your husband digs them, so good for you. Terrific. Rebecca Warren, Dylan Warner, Catherine Thompson, Cody Ketterling, Jared Schoonover, Amy Marie, Mike Rooney, Patrick O'Donnell, Montana with no last name, Amber with no last name, Backlog Frog, Stephanie Fry, Anna the Singer, Bethany Talema, Kelly Luton, Tommy Pounce, he's a pornographer,

obviously. Tommy Pounce, your ass. He does it. He does the thing. He's a pornographer, obviously. Tommy Pounce. Your ass. He gets it. He does it. He does the thing. He grabs that ass. Brian Sylvia. Adrian Adreno. Brandon True or Tro.

Marianne McCullough. Sharon Corris. Alice, what is this, St. Quentin. Nabad Vilcateria. Probably not. Sharon Schmidt. Mikey Williams. Ann Kincaid.

Katie Ann Gall. Selena Carr, Sean with no last name, Jacqueline Melchiori, I think, Lolita Burks, Kelly Gray, Nicole Almagadis, nope, John Sheehan, Corey Gaines, Connor with no last name, Ariel Evans, Laura Huesler, Blake Pugh, Mindy Myers, Madison Gwynn, Samae Bayou, I think, Anushka. Yeah. That's a first name. Josh Guido, Brian Dixon, Tracy Hunt, Ben West, Weetbrook, West, what is that, Weetbrook, Amber Lane, Alexandria Cataldo, Andrew Williams, Hannah Scott, R-E-L with no last name, Susan

Miller, Ashley Dlugoski. It's another stroke, everyone. Dlugoski. Two in one. Wow. I don't know what it is. Stephen L. Medical care here.

Stephen L. Oscar Park. Is that Oscar? Yeah. Krister Kreister. Laurel Downs. Samantha Malone. Dude, his buddies called him. Hey, what's up?

It's the Kreister. It's the Kreistmeister. What's up, sus? What's happening? Laurel Downs, Samantha Malone, Greg Lynn, Robert Allen, Blue Taylor, Sean Mosley, Corey Thompson, Ashley Arnold, Kara Samuels, Will with no last name, James Gomez, Amy Carberry, Brianna Hoffer, Anne-Marie Pinto, Bryce Law, I think, Cray with no last name, Matthew Atkinson, Emily with no last name, Andrew Mayhew, Jesus, Logan West, Tamsin Hunter, Max Leduc, Alan Swack,

fuck, Brittany McKinney, Sean Dane, Joe Ross, Ben Mutz, Colleen Trioli, Kristen Starnes, Clay O'Daniel, Andrea Michelle Jones, Mike Clark, Renee Gilligan, Spencer Kappelman, Ian Boydson, Maxine Siss, Melanie Lewis, Hunter with no last name, Connor Jack, Nicole Bergeron, Ross Hetherington, Katie Sinclair, Sam Zimmerman, Shannon Emmons, Megan and Robert Young. It's also his birthday. Happy birthday, Robert. David Haynes, Victoria Hall, Elizabeth and Rocky Marks, Ian Mack, Alana Clark, Ezekiel Newey.

I don't know. I'm sorry. Taylor Moore, Tabitha McClary-Beyer, James with no last name, Brandy Wenham, Media Maven, Chris Rayburn, Emma with no last name, Scott Hollingsworth, Biz with no last name, Rachel Sacky, Sachs, Sarah Watkins, Bill Perry, Brandon Williams, Francisco Medrano, Lauren Flores, Jake Lanham, Audrey LaFave, Matt and Nicole Byer, Adam Bloomy, I think. Jackson would know last name. Timo Timimim.

What? Michael Critch, Amy Nelson. Andrew would know last name. Yasmin O. Samuel Charles Lowry. Daniel Polis. Lisa Palmer. Sammy Wagner.

What is this? Adonica Jordan. Rachel Mitchell. McCall would know the last name, or that is the last name. Andrea Samples. Preston Parman. Amanda. No, that's almond.

Almond butter. Andrea Samples. I said that. Andrea Samples. Amber Strange. Cheyenne arena markham christy collins justin van cleve steve smith tiffany stevens danny mcguire parker green vanessa slagle uh christopher peas uh karen hayachi trevor hailstones rare breed exotics

i imagine lions and tigers and shit and bears caleb davies nicole ray ray uh one with no last name jayla calhoun i imagine that's paul's daughter uh don mcclure uh dana dana moser osbone jamie smith dan what is that worth uh angelia and happy birthday sarah barbara tanner with no last name cassieie Steinel. Caleb Stewart. Jesse Dodson. God damn it. Stacey T. Jen Router.

And Ryan Petzer. You guys are amazing. Thank you so much. I can't believe it. Thank you, everybody. Thank you. Thank you. Honestly.

Shit from the bottom of our fucking hearts. You have made our lives worth living, and you've made it so all of my uh slacking in high school matters none thank you so much for that to be able to still eat food and pay rent and stuff because of you guys so thank you can't thank you enough uh what if they wanted to thank you or tell you something jimmy or maybe call you an asshole how could they do it you can find me at wisman sucks whism W-H-I-S-M-A-N Sucks on Twitter and Instagram. And thank you guys so much, by the way. This school year is fucking madness with children. And being able to lean on the teachers in this audience is fucking amazing.

Oh, yeah. We have a lot of those, too. So thank you guys so much for being involved in whatever we do. Fuck yeah. Thank you. And social media and everything. So thank you. Where can they find you?

Oh, you can find me over at JimmyIsFunny or just copy and paste my name because you're not going to spell it right if you try to look for it that way. And you can just Google and you'll find us all on there and shit. So do that. Keep coming back. Listen to Crime and Sports.

Listen to everything. Come back and see us next week. And each and every week, tell your friends, goddammit. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. everybody. It's been our pleasure. Hey,

prime members. You can listen to small town murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.