Small Town Murder - #205 - The Disappearing Cheerleader in Hanover Township, New Jersey

Episode Date: January 7, 2021

This week, in Hanover Township, New Jersey, a bright, popular cheerleader disappears from the mall parking lot, leaving her car keys still in the ignition. This causes widespread fear, until another young woman is attacked, then it turns into complete panic. Who would do such horrible things? A very horrible person, of course. And how this person ends up getting caught is one for the ages! Along the way, we find out that it's very easy to start a UFO hoax, that maybe when someone who kills 2 people, may kill more people, and that when a cheerleader goes missing, people notice! Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman New episodes every Thursday! Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com & use our email: [e-mail] Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports! Follow us on... twitter.com/@murdersmall facebook.com/smalltownpod instagram.com/smalltownmurder Also, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasting See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're listening early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Hanover Township, New Jersey, when a popular cheerleader disappears from the local mall, the whole area is on edge until another young woman is killed. Then it turns into full-blown panic. Welcome to Small Town Murder. hello everybody and welcome back to small town murder yay yay indeed jimmy yay indeed my name

is james petra gallo i'm here with my co-host i'm jimmy wisman thank you folks so much for joining us today we have got quite the show for you today. This is one of those ones where I've had and been like, oh, boy, when do I want to get into this? Because it's just so there's so much to it. I knew it was one of those where I'm not going to sleep for a few days because I have to do a lot of research. And it's pretty creepy at the same time. So it's one of those. So it's going to be wild.

Those are usually some of our best episodes. Yeah. The least less amount of sleep I have means that we put a lot into this. So that's going to be wild. Those are usually some of our best episodes. Yeah, the less amount of sleep I have means that we put a lot into this. So that's good. But I just want to thank everybody quickly this week for everything you've done for us, of course, all of last year and through this year. And if you haven't yet, please give us a review on Apple podcast, the purple icon. It helps a lot. We have no idea why.

So please, though, it does help drive you up the charts. Do that. Also, head over to shut up and give me murder.com right now that is very important because you can get your tickets to the virtual live show coming up very soon january the 29th 2021 right here and it'll be available for 72 hours after that it'll be a real small town murder episode just like we would do in a theater show like we usually do right we'll be available for 72 hours after that. It'll be a real small-town murder episode, just like we would do in a theater show like we usually do. We'll be sitting there. We'll have the good visuals. We'll have mics. We'll have the whole deal.

Booze and a story. Let's do it. That's right. Jimmy's going to be drinking whiskey, and I will be good and baked. So it's going to be a whole baby. I can't wait. It's going to be fun. So we can't wait to do that.

January 29th. Shut up and give me murder.com also listen to crime and sports if you haven't if you want more of our show this is a very good week to start sure on the fuck is this week because if even if you don't like sports say do you know who luca brazi is yeah you know the godfather well there's a lot more history to that so check on crime and sports this week also check out PSA Hate This Movie because I had to watch Twilight last week. So at least make it worth my while. So please do that.

And Patreon is cooking right now. Of course. Oh, it is going good. We're pumping out the episodes. This week we have, by the way, patreon.com slash crime and sports. And if you sign up for that, you get access to the bonus episodes from both podcasts, Crime and Sports and Small Town Murder. And you're going to get a handful of that this week.

Small Town Murder's bonus episode this week will be the worst town reviews I can find of different towns. We have so much fun with the town reviews and people have so much to say about them. I'm going to try to just cultivate and aggregate as much bad blood that people have. Screw your local pride. Hate your place. It's better that way. People from places that hate them, it's hilarious. So what their weird beefs are, check that out.

It's going to be a lot of fun. That's patreon.com slash crime and sports. Plus, you'll get a shout out because you're a producer at that point. You that point right you are jimmy will mispronounce your name probably terribly at the end of the show good for it or you can just go over to paypal and use our email address crime and sports at gmail.com if you just want to be a producer and get your name mispronounced that said uh disclaimer quickly yeah this is a comedy podcast yes we're comedians we are this is a comedy show we're going to tell you a story about horrible murder. Damn right. That's right.

And there's going to be comedy in there. I understand if you're like, what the hell's up with that? Yeah, sounds a little bit strange, but trust us, the way we do it is pretty cool. Seems to work. It works. There's a lot going on around a murder because it's a crazy thing to have an idea to murder somebody. So there's a lot of nutty stuff going on that we can talk about.

We try to go out of our way to make sure not to make fun of the victims or the victims' families. Because we're assholes, but we're not scumbags. That's how it works. It's us. Other than that, we have a good time. We're going to tell you a crazy-ass story where bad things happen to sometimes good people and sometimes bad people. You never know. Either way, way though if that

sounds good to you awesome yeah if not hey maybe we should part ways or maybe give it a chance what are you doing here so we're gonna give it a run either way i think it's time for me and you right now and everyone out there to sit back and shout shut up and give me murder let's do this i cannot wait let's go on a trip shall we we should let's do this we were in north carolina last week for one of the most bonkers what the shit that was that was one of those stories where you're like that's going on yeah this is why that's why we do small town murder because you know you hear all about things happening in cities but like these little tucked away things that you never knew you're like that's what's happening right on the you know off ramps of the highway like when i drive by and it says that place and i see two houses and i'm like people

live there that's what's happening it's crazy last week we did mention because we had two shows from north carolina last week with crime and sports yeah and and small so i mentioned lisa and and yeah she said that uh they did change a law about domestic violence because of Grundy. Something similar. Interesting. I don't know if it was because of him, but it's definitely been changed. Situation. Probably because of multiple.

To hold someone. Okay, that's interesting. You don't have to live together for it to be domestic. That's helpful. Yeah. If you're in the same place and someone's beating someone up, we can call it what it is. So we're going here to Hanover Township, New Jersey. Going to Jersey, the Florida of the North, everybody.

And I know in our bonus episode, we were in New Jersey, but that was a brief one. And this is an episode that we really needed to get into. That was almost like the prequel to this, basically, because it was a similar type of deal. But this is way more advanced. Oh, yeah, that was a saturday story right yes that was the one there this is in north central jersey and i will say the murders happened kind of around this area and this is kind of the central area it incorporate encompasses three towns so we're just going to call it this area and if it's not right here and exactly right there

who cares that's what we're going to do so hanover township new jersey north central new jersey yeah this is at uh it's only 40 minutes to new york city so very very commutable this is a place where north central so because jersey is like that weird shape yeah so it's like a above the angle yeah oh yeah yeah it's right up way up there it's a county below new york basically it's it's right there it's not far at all very commutable to new york city population exploded here in the 60s when people were moving out of cities it's about an hour and a half to philadelphia 20 minutes to chatham township which was our last new jersey episode full episode which was episode 162 my christ back in march which was i don't know 20 years ago it feels like. Long time ago.

Different planet. I just saw the Ricky Gervais opening of the Golden Globes. That was literally a year ago. And I was like, are you serious? That was only a year? We were on the road less than a year ago. I know. That tells you a lot right there. It hasn't been a year since we were in Utah.

That's what I mean. Since it was snowing in Denver. Unbelievable. Crazy stuff. This is in Utah. That's what I mean. Since it was snowing in Denver. Unbelievable. Crazy stuff. This is in Morris County, area code 862. It's 10 square miles, so it's a good size. Like I said, this encompasses a couple other small towns. And the motto here is, quote, great things happen in Hanover.

Oh, boy. So there's that. Well, Jesus. Or Hanover's in New Jersey. That's all you need to and then you understand from there so uh quickly over the history because we got a lot of story we got to buzz through the history we'll just hit a couple of high points here okay uh they had a there was a big facility here we'll go right to the 20th century lucent technologies had a big

facility in whippany which is around here uh the first demonstration of long distance television transmission in the united states took place in 1927 with a transmission that went from washington dc to new york and from whippany to new york also okay so that's they were trying out different lengths uh television broadcast 1927 though that's cool i love like the history of tv and when they actually fascinating it's really cool like they like the history of tv and when they actually fascinating it's really cool like they had the technology at first and they were like they didn't know what to do with it and it sat there for a minute it's still awfully strange that we can do that then they argued about what kind of tv they were going to do how they you know the plates or the it's a

long story the wavelength it works yeah until after world war ii II, this was kind of an industrial town. Not a lot of people here. Known for ironworks, paper mills, and things like that. But after that, after World War II, it became commutable to New York City 2009 five unidentified red lights were spotted in the sky over hanover township in morris county it became known nationally as the morristown ufo hoax because two residents disclosed how they use road flares attached to balloons to create these objects and send a fervor through the city like fucking morons pretty awesome that they got those to float at the same height yeah i mean so they it's pretty tough to do i would assume to go in a straight line like pounds of helium you need to put in each but the uh this is the home of the 2017 junior peewee division youth football national champions

oh my there's that so they're very much into child's football here yeah give that other child brain damage do it do knock the math out of his head i don't want him to know his multiplication tables when he's done with i know he just learned him i want him to forget him by the end of this game let's knock the tables out of those kids that's what they tell the kids so uh not that i mean that's what you gotta do it's what you gotta do so uh it's located just north of morristown separated by a thin strip of morristown morristown ship and adjacent to the morristown municipal airport just to give kind of geography from people who are around there uh the township also has uh whippany and cedar knolls involved in it there's all these places here's

some reviews of the town most of them are positive it was hard to find very negative reviews of the town and there there's even the sort of negative ones have positive in them so people seem to like it here here's a three star Hanover Township has a wonderful schooling system the

taxes are high but they are used to our benefit the neighborhoods are clean and the streets are kept paved well that's helpful uh it's not this is the most well-spoken person in a review that we've ever had that's what i mean usually it's like i don't like that there ain't no popeyes coming into town because i want one of them chicken sandwiches and also the dollar store is always crowded. You can't even go to the dollar store. That's usually the normal complaint of these things. This one is the schooling system. The schooling system. That's brilliant.

Maybe they're British or something. The disadvantage is that there are more quick checks in town, like check cashing places, than restaurants, grocery stores, or department stores. Okay, that's a bad sign. That's fine. That's never a good sign. No. The more check cashing department stores. Okay, that's a bad sign. That's fine. That's never a good sign. No. The more check cashing places you see around, that's...

It's usually because people in this area don't have a bank account. Yeah. That's scary. I think they pop up probably... Yeah, they probably pop up at the same rate as crack houses, I think, probably. I would assume. And that's probably right about the cusp when your town starts to die. Yeah. How many check cashing? Boy, that's probably right about the cusp when your town starts to die. Yeah.

How many check hashings? Boy, that's a lot. It's getting bad. Just get a bank account. It's scary, man. What are you doing? Yeah. Are you on the lam or something?

Why would you want to be tracked? What's the matter? What the fuck are you doing? Okay. Three stars here. This is just very simple. Quote, the police respond in a very slow manner. Especially when it's an emergency.

Now, that's a personal thing. They had an emergency and the cops didn't come as quickly as they would have liked. I don't think the general thing is, you know, if there's like a cat in a tree, they'll come running. But if you're on fire,

then they're going to take their sweet time about it. I highly doubt that's the policy. Also, it's a very vague word there. Emergency, especially when it's an emergency. We don't know what your emergency was. That the other thing what you consider to be one it could be anything uh here is three stars this is very personal quote my current living situation yeah

first of all okay that's your problem my current living situation is overpopulated with tons of people everywhere you go if i could i would love to live in a more private location where i would be able to raise my children so would everybody else sounds like it sounds like she has a lot of people or he has a lot of people living in their house like it's a very crowded house why get cousins are here sounds like one of your friends put you on airbnb yeah and you don't even know it's like new people show up all the time constantly it's crowded they expect things i don't know tried to take a shit there was somebody in there somebody was there already saying can they have better toilet paper they're gonna give me a bad review

i was like review of what they said the towels are too hard i don't like them what do you want from me so here is a three star and um again this is this person the insult that comes first you're like okay that's probably true but then the next sentence you're like okay this person has no idea what they're talking about anyway three stars in whippany there is not a good nightlife option so many travel close by to morristown where the nightlife is always outrageous exclamation point yeah outrageous yeah it's you go there who says that it's fucking you know it's greenwich village in the 50s it's like just popping shirt off pop in what is going on here outrageous this is it's outrageous but not here no no punctuation in that sentence.

Which could use several commas, by the way. Except for the exclamation. Except for that. It was very difficult to read it. That's how few commas were in it and how many were needed. There is always something going on in Morristown. And for any holidays, most of the bars and restaurants have their employees dress up to spread the spirit! Exclamation point. So, what is this like the morristown chamber of

commerce president posting this you don't want to go here morristown is outrageous things are hopping in morristown dress up and spread cheer exclamation point man that's what it is what happens so this place uh this place from 1950 to 1960 kind of tripled in population. Really? Yeah, it was post-war when they built the road systems better and you could get to New York City quickly. Sure. That was the place to be. So not a bad thing for that.

And it stayed pretty steady and kind of has stayed pretty steady since then. Right now, there is 14,436 people here, which is not many uh up 25 since 1990 so not too bad here uh last probably 10 years there's been a pretty good influx of people male female populations are pretty average the it's a kind of a little more money here so the age is a little older median age is 44 it's usually about 37 and a half anytime you get money it's going to be 14 000 people and it's commutable to new york yeah man 40 minutes that's why it's expensive if it wasn't expensive there'd be a shitload more people living here that's all those suburbs anything commutable to new york is it's ridiculous it's you'll see like i know like

where my dad lives in new york is uh and my little brother lives up there still, where I'm from, is like the last, if you go a half hour more up, then it's not commutable. Last bastion of affordable? No, you can commute pretty well from there. My brother does it every day to Manhattan, so it's not bad to go there. So it's pretty expensive. But if you go a half hour north, the fucking price is going half because then you can't commute anymore so it cuts out a huge portion of people who might want to move there from this you know work in the city and live up there so that's kind of that's how it is all those

burbs around new york city are real expensive for that location location that's what it is babe so uh here married population much higher as well because older and more money is going to be more married. It's about 57% lower divorce rate. All of that lower, never married, less single with children, all that shit. It's just a lot of family households here. Sure. The race of this town, 75.8% white. So pretty white.

Yeah. So 62% is the average. 1.3% black. That is well under the 12.3 average here um we have eight uh 0.0 oh i'm sorry 13.6 percent asian interesting which is very interesting yeah that's odd it's usually five percent so i don't know what you know what's drawing yeah not that there has to be a reason, but you know what I mean? So usually there's, you know, it's something there.

Yeah. So Hispanic, 8.7% as well. So about 60% of the people here are religious, too, which is kind of odd for the Northeast. Is it? It's odd, but they're not real. This is a different type of religious here. Catholic? Well, no, they're 43% Catholic.

Catholics are, everyone everyone the baptists of the north right but catholicism in the northeast isn't like a given it's not like like baptists in the south that are like well i'm gonna go church on sunday and then i got church on tuesday and i'll see you at church on wednesday and this is like i went on easter and you know i was busy on christmas maybe next easter see if i can pop in and get that shit rubbed on my face on that one wednesday yeah you tell your kid he's going to do his communion and he's like what we never go to fucking church you're gonna go to fucking cdc classes you get your goddamn communion god damn it you fuck over there and you make your kids do shit like that

that's northeast catholicism it's just you know it's traditional right makes your grandmother happy shut up that's what it. You're making your grandma cry. Yeah. You want your grandmother to cry if you don't get that little tiny... She's already bought the communion medal. She already bought the medal. Yeah. You know them?

You do? Yeah. Yeah. Every guinea kid with their medal, and they got the confirmation one after that, so they got two. It's their first swag. Yeah. That's why...

It's the first chain. It's why they grow up like that, because right away, it's like, here's some gold chains for you. You did real well. The kid's eight. Put this shit on. Yeah. Put that on. You're, it's like, here's some gold chains for you. It did real well. Put the shit on. Yeah, put that on. You're eight years old, so you got a medallion now. You're only going to want to grow it.

That's what's wrong with our, that's our culture. It's hilarious. So yeah, we have that. Not much of else. 1.6% Jewish. What? Hava. Nagila.

Hava. Nagila. Hava. Nagila. I don't know the words. Jesus Christ. Yay. It's been so long people have so disappointed when they when there isn't one percent somebody sent me the lyrics to that i know there's no i don't know i don't know what that says i don't know how to read that i don't know how is that that more embarrassing? I guess. I mean... Is it more embarrassing to know the words and not be able to say them? Or is it to not know them? Yeah, it's one thing to not be able to remember them. But then to just...

To know what they are. To see them, not be able to comprehend them. There it is. And then just go, I don't know the words. That's our level of dumb, Jimmy. That's a different ballpark. I can't pronounce the words. I don't know shit. I am a different ballpark. I can't pronounce the words. I don't know, shit.

I am really dumb. Hey. I can't read the words. I have hard time reading. So the unemployment rate here is way lower than the national average. You kind of got to have some dough to live here. And the median household income here, $116,020 a year. Wow.

Which is more than double the national average of median household income here 116 thousand twenty dollars a year wow which is uh double more than double the national average of median household income so pretty uh wealthy here cost of living 100 is regular average here cost of living 146 so high and the main thing that's high is housing which is a 218 out of 100 for a median home For a median home cost of, ready for this, Jimmy, $505,000. Holy shit. A little pricey. That is a hell of a mortgage. A little on the pricey side. My fuck.

6% of the houses are worth less than $200,000. Okay. So there is no low end. You can find it. Yeah, I know. There's no entry level here a lot of people have like guest cottages and shit like these are yeah there's there's very wealthy enclaves here in this place and if we've convinced you damn it you're ready to commute to new york city

and move to hanover township we have for you the hanover township new jersey real estate report. Your average two bedroom rental here goes for about twenty one hundred seventy bucks, which is pricey for a two bedroom. Yeah, it's a little pricey. I mean, it's not Manhattan, but it's no, it's pricey. I'll say that much. It's not, you know, that's a lot. It's a lot.

I found a five bedroom, four bath, you know. That's a lot. It's a lot. I found a five-bedroom, four-bath, 2,409-square-foot house. It looks like dog shit. Yeah. It looks like shit. 2,400 square feet? 2,400 square feet. It is fucked up. It needs, let's just say, a lot, capital L-O-T, of work.

It's going to need some love. It's been, I don't know what the hell somebody did to it, but's messed up 489 000 million dollars so yeah be prepared to double that and whatever you have to do because it needs a lot of work i found a four bedroom two bath 1640 square foot like kind of nice family starter not starter, but just a nice family home. Nice house. Nice bushes out front. Nice curb appeal. Very well kept.

$499,999. Half a million. Half a million for 1,600 square feet. Jesus Christ. That's a little pricey. Then I found a five bedroom, five bath. Yeah. This is nice. 3,300 square feet.

It's a nice house on the inside but the outside is like this meh pale yellow oh not bright yellow like that house from a few weeks ago but a pale like uh pastel like pus milk yeah i was gonna say like an easter egg yeah yellow like it looks like an easter egg uh 730 000 for that though so yeah and you want to put a little work into that definitely a paint job that's so much so much it's expensive there man yeah like i said you want to be commutable to new york city but live in a quiet safe leafy place that you feel like you're in the country that's what you're gonna you gotta pay for it you gotta pay for it that's what it works otherwise you put up a little picket fence around the city tree on the yeah on

the sidewalk in front of your brown stuff. On your fire escape. Look at this. White picket fire escape, everybody. So, things to do here. Oh, my. On the website, this one Hanover Township website that has like, you know, come here and do shit. I'm going to quote from it because it's ballsy. It's real

ballsy. Okay. Quote, Hanover Township has a history rivaling that of Philadelphia or Boston. Okay. Probably not. I'm just going to say probably not. Let's just say. Did Thomas Jefferson live there? Well, yeah.

Well, he lived in. He didn't live there anymore. In Philly? Well, I mean, he stayed there, but that's not where he lived. Didn't he have a house in Philly? Probably while he was working there, but that's not his estate. All right. Listen, is Benjamin Franklin buried there there, but that's not his estate as Marcosello.

Listen, is Benjamin Franklin buried there? Yes, that's true. I was going to say, you are not a big history guy. And you could name multiple historical events that happened in both cities. That's the thing. Okay, yeah. Boston Tea Party, a million different things. They're claiming as much American history as Boston and Philly. And they say, but unfortunately, many people don't realize how storied the Morris County

community is. Like you, Jimmy. You're unsure of this. And like me as well. I don't want to put it on you. And that's where the Hanover Township Landmark Commission comes in. Jimmy, they're going to tell you what's up. Quote, we're attempting to get the word out about this incredible history we have here

that people can take pride in. If it was that amazing. You wouldn in if it was that amazing you wouldn't have to do you wouldn't have to do shit no because we've heard of other small places that have had crazy histories i know deadwood i know all about it a lot of people live there though they didn't live there back then but i know a lot about it so i'm sure things happen don't get me wrong but you have not done a good job publicizing them. And you have something crazy happens. A lot of history in your town. If you want to promote it, I'll give you a window of I'll even give you 100 years. But once we get to 250 or so years, hey, you know what?

You missed it. Let's say it wasn't that goddamn important. Yeah, your heat died down. Sorry. damn important to say yeah your heat is you're just your heat died down sorry so uh many public attractions as they say including the whippany railway museum can't wait to go there and the freelinghausen arbitrarium so if you want to look at some trees and the morris county library you want to go watch homeless people masturbate so uh you know whatever you want to do that's what's in a library what do you want from me so uh i mean there's also books yeah that's what they're masturbating to or hiding

behind as they masturbate that's the point so i'm just telling the truth if you've been in a library lately jerk shield that's what they are jerk shield that's it i'm gonna get dickens it's a good jerk shield and it's pretty funny because dick's thick as a dick. I need the taller one. And the other thing I found here is I am not okay with this. What is this called? This is the Brewfest Seafood Food Truck Convention. I'm not buying seafood from a truck. No.

I'm just not. Whether it's on the side of the road here selling shrimp or cooked, even if it's a world class chef. Yeah. If you made it in a building, I don't know what that is in there. You got seafood and it's precarious. You've got Goodyears under your building. What the fuck? Yeah.

I found a Groupon, too, that's got like for four tickets. The Groupon was one hundred and sixty dollars. Tickets. Tickets to this. Tickets to the food. I guess you can just extravaganza strap a feed bag on and go from truck to truck. I don't know. And it's a brew house thing, too, so there's beer and seafood just ruining everybody's breath.

Breath. Imagine the porta-potties with their, like, seafood from a truck with beer on top of it in the heat. What the fuck? Are you kidding me? No no that's not happening so uh crime rate in this town what we're interested in here obviously property crime is it's about half the national average so not much it's sure very safe around here the kind of thing violent crime murder rape robbery and assault the mount rushmore of crime is a good indicator of how bad it is here. And it's less than half of the national average.

Mad safe. Under the half. Yeah. It's very safe. Some of these communities are like gated. Some of them are like, you know, some of them are just like normal, like these houses in the real estate report were pretty normal houses. But there are some very expensive houses and there's just not a lot for sale around here

because people hang on to this shit basically. So that said, let's just not a lot for sale around here because people hang on to this shit basically so that said let's talk about a murder does not everybody say yes ever ever let's talk about a horrible thing that happened here okay in this leafy wonderland known as hanover township new jersey uh let's start out with a young lady let's start out with we're going to go to 1982 beautiful think about it we're going to talk about 1982 let's start out with a young lady let's start out with we're gonna go to 1982 beautiful think about it yeah we're gonna talk about 1982 let's talk about an 18 year old high school senior yeah um in 1982 yeah she's getting ready in the morning there's like you know we got the beat is playing in the background or whatever what's happening i guess

go-go's or banana rammer some shit i don't know what the hell teenage girls listen to the rubber burning as my father takes off out of the driveway yeah for me to see him in 27 more years that's probably yeah that's as you wave that's 1982 for me he'll be back with cigarettes yeah pretty soon yeah no 1982 as a child yeah i'm not not wonderful for me either so but if you were 18 and a high school senior and you were a cheerleader oh and you were got great grades and we're gonna go to college and we're very popular and beautiful you'd probably be listening to we have to be we got to be you'd probably be fucking dancing as you like the beginning of uh adventures in babysitting or whatever oh yeah you know was it that song no it wasn't it was something else something about kiss me wasn't it i don't fucking remember but it was it was elizabeth

shoe dancing around how many movies have started out with somebody that one stupid britney spears movie she's dancing around in her underwear or whatever in the beginning that's how movies start i want that yeah you're gonna crossroads i don't know that ever saw that no britney spears was in a movie she starred in a movie get out of here starred in it oh my she it's she's terrible it's like her and i think justin long's trying to bang her the whole time no but he's like a nerd oh no she's like a nerd she's like a good girl oh boy she's going on an adventure a little louisiana girl oh yeah she's eventually going to get some some dick at the end of that journey. So, yeah. But it's like 2001, too.

Oh, my God. It's weird. So, let's talk about Amy Hoffman. And it's Amy with an I-E, by the way. It's A-I-M-I-E. Oh. Yeah. That's confusing as shit.

Yeah. Well, what are you going to do? Amy Hoffman is her name. 18 years old. Like I said, happy-go-lucky high school cheerleader. Yeah. You know. Having a great time.

Having a good time here. She goes to Parsippany High School there. Parsippany Troy Hills is where they live there. So nice family, everything. She has a 14-year-old little sister. Now she's, like I said, looking forward to school. She's real into school stuff. She's a cheerleader.

There's a big Thanksgiving football game that she's looking forward to for the school. Is that homecoming? That's not homecoming, is it? I think that's October. I never participated in any of that. I don't know when. I didn't go to dances. I didn't do any of that shit.

I didn't participate in any of that shit. No. No. No. I went to I didn't go to dances I didn't do any of that shit I didn't participate in any of that shit no no I went to prom and wore sneakers in protest which everybody does now but at the time I was the only one

everybody does it for fun because that looks best with their outfit now yeah because they bought those shoes on purpose for this fit yeah I just wore like my Charles Barkley's

I'm not buying everybody was like oh my god why didn't I do that you black fucking do that? That's awesome. That looks great. And then the next year, everybody wore.

Of course. For the prom. But that's the only thing I went to, and that was because I had a girlfriend who was obviously forcing me. I just didn't go. You have to. I didn't do it. Yeah.

Otherwise, no. I wasn't participating in any school activities. I guess I kind of stood a girl up. A girl wanted me to go with her, and I was like, yeah, sure. And then I just didn't go. And then the next time I saw her, was it? it was after it was a ways after maybe the next year uh she never talked to me again that's probably for the best i just smoked weed outside most of the time that was my my experience too yeah that's it going there so uh amy hoffman like we said she's doing

all of this shit she gets along well with her parents, gets great grades, participates in school activities. Her parents are Frank and Florence Hoffman. And Frank Hoffman served in the army in Korea. Wow. Yeah. And his wife and he adopted Amy, who was Korean, 13 years ago. So when she was five, they adopted her and brought her to america so they were in korea i believe yes she was in korea so she is adapting very well here's a picture of

the cheerleading squad there she is right there yep in the cheerleading squad up in the you know top i see over there there you go that's nice there so she's doing very well november 23rd she also has a job at the mall okay so i mean teenager 80s teenager to the t yeah you know like couldn't be more this is the opening of an 80s teen movie sure you know michael j fox is going to be in love with her but she doesn't like him you know she likes some other guy but then she's got to notice him when he turns into a wolf and dunks a basketball that's the type of stuff we're talking about here. So on the morning of November 23rd, 1982, this is a couple days before Thanksgiving. She gets up here, gets up a little bit late.

She's not feeling well. She wasn't feeling well the day before. We'll get into that. But she puts on a blue, rust, and white plaid skirt and a brown sweater and boots and goes goes to school that's not a cheerleading outfit no no that's a cool color combination yeah she's got like she's probably like that like preppy early 80s i feel like rust and blue that's kicking rust blue and white yeah that probably pops the white pops on that very nice now we're into skirt fashion fucking that's what we're gonna do do now. Hi, welcome to...

Skirt fashion with James and Jimmy. Welcome to skirt review with James and Jimmy. That sounds very sexist. We're going to review... Yeah, it sounds like we're reviewing... Not at all. We're not reviewing women. We're reviewing actual garments, actual skirts for their fashionability.

Whether the color combinations go together. Does the white pop? You know, how's it going to work? We're reviewing Macy's spring catalog this week. next well you got to tune into that that's patreon obviously so if somebody wants us to do that we will for us blue and white i like it in may of 1980 near anaheim california dorothy jane scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell she insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription,

Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again. Leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Aaron and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle in theory, walking through the forensic evidence, and interviewing those close to the case to try

to discover what happened. And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery Plus, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager,

but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family.

But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts.

I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great.

A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's

most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the W wondery app or on apple podcasts yeah so uh she goes to school talks to her friends by the way homecoming dance is coming up it's not thanksgiving but there's one coming up soon here and she's talking about how she is going to be competing for homecoming queen so i mean this is how she is

like got it together this girl here uh she would wear a black gown she was saying that's what she was telling everyone to wear a black gown i'm gonna do this sure this is my plan this is a girl that we would have looked at and went wow she'll never talk to me she's got it she's got a lot going on for her i gotta find someone who's like you know hasn't talked to her parents since she was nine well this one also speaks or thinks uh about things that i don't think about. That's what I mean. I would never have that on my mind.

I'd never have my shit together that much. No. She's got outfits picked out. That's crazy. Outfits, talking about it. Yeah. Yeah, everything here. Now, that day, later on,

she goes to work at the mall, the Morris County Mall. I mean, hey, a teenager working at the mall. How more stereotypical 80s can that be? Now, her mom, she's supposed to get off at 9.30 from work, and she's home by 9.45 if she drives her car. I have found, I guess you could say evidence, but I found people posting about this that worked in the mall that sometimes she took the bus home. Amy did? Amy did, that sometimes she took the bus home amy did amy did and sometimes she uh sometimes she drove her car okay so i don't know if she was driving her car all the

time right now or what but she's uh she took her car to work that night when she takes her car she's home by 9 45 that's that now her mother florence says she's a big worrier so you know she's not home by 9 46 she's looking out the front window, looking for headlights to come down the street. She's just a worried mom. That's how she is. So she said, when she knew I was home, she was never more than 10 minutes late without calling.

Amy is very, you know what I mean? She's very punctual. She's very got it together. Dependable. Exactly. So now 9.45 comes around and no Amy. 9.50 comes around. No Amy. 10 o 945 comes around and no Amy. 950 comes around. No Amy.

10 o'clock comes around. No Amy. So the mom's like, I mean, you know, it is normal for a teenager. Maybe got caught in a conversation with her friend or you never know. Maybe she's talking to a boy and there's no cell phones in 1982. That's a great. So she can't just be like, hold on once I got to text my mom and like say, yeah, I'll be home in 20 minutes. So she's got to go to a fucking pay phone you know

if their store that she works at's closed she's got to go to a pay phone put a quarter in and call her mom it's you know it's a lot so her mom though is not taking any chances at about 10 o'clock mom heads to the mall to look for her jesus christ she's 18 years old yeah she's literally 15 minutes late coming home and mom is in the car going there so that's worrier fits her well nothing wrong with that no whatsoever it's awesome it's and you know who knows what mother you know motherly instincts you have or my mom would have never done that no no no my mom would have assumed i was fine my mom would have waited 15 days and be like i should go to his job yeah and she'd tell me how worried she was afterwards.

I've been worried sick. Yeah. Really? It's been two weeks. Here I am. You could have found me two weeks ago, too. So, yeah, anyway, she was leaving her part-time job. It's at the Surprise Store.

I think it's a clothing store at the mall. And that's where she worked. She left her part-time job there and uh her mom finds her car in the parking lot when she gets there she goes okay well there's amy's car that's you know a good sign but she might still be here obviously if i see her car if her car's gone and then she's gone that's more scary i would imagine as you see her car you go okay it's in the rear of parking lot of the mall and the mom uh looks around goes up to the car looks inside and inside the car is amy's jacket oh which is

november right november 23rd in new jersey at night time so chilly outside her jacket her purse oh uh the doors are unlocked and the keys in the ignition that's not good at all no jacket and purse on the front seat uh key in the ignition uh That's not good at all. No jacket and purse on the front seat. Key in the ignition. Not on. Not, you know, the car is not running, but the keys in the ignition and doors are unlocked. So this is very strange. So her mother thinks, oh, maybe she ran.

You know, oh, I forgot something had to run back in. And that's the only explanation goes. No, no, no. But that's the only explanation for where she could be and everything could be fine. Right. Is that everything to be okay? Everything okay right yeah yeah so she looks around the car she said that she at that point florence uh walks to the liquor store there's a liquor store in the mall plaza there and it is the only lit place left it's the only place with lights on still so she goes there hoping that must be where amy is i guess because that's the only place with lights on still so she goes there hoping that must be where

amy is i guess because that's the only place with lights on she better be drinking she goes there and gets to the liquor store yeah and we'll get back to that in a little bit okay so amy is uh a mess we'll get back to amy okay for a minute here we're gonna have to go back to about the late 60s for a second here let's go back to the late 60s uh jerry got to talk about a guy uh gerald or james gerald gerald with a j by the way okay james gerald cody uh codatish uh kodash codatish yeah codatish i think c or i'm sorry k-o-e-d-a-t-i-c-h i hate it codatish it's a tough one we're gonna just james let's call him James. Or JJ. Let's call him JJ. I don't want to call him James because also his date of birth is June 12th, 1948.

So we have the same birth, obviously decades apart, but the same birthday also. So I don't want to be James and have the same birthday. Call him James J at this point. Jimmy J. Yeah. Yeah. So he's got a lot of problems. He's born in 1948,une 12 1948 by the late 60s he's already

has a shitload of problems teenage arrests he's been arrested over a dozen times jesus as a teenager uh everything from assaulting a new brunswick police officer to possession of heroin and a stolen car okay he's a general ne'er-do-well fuck up this guy basically yeah you've got heroin and a stolen car that's the least of your worries yeah your day's been a shit day it's had it's been a shit day and your life is just it's a mess it's it's a mess it is literally a mess you really can't wait to go to bed so that you can dream of a better life because when you get up you gotta go okay not only do I have to figure out how to get money for heroin, but then I got to find a place, a way to get there.

I got to steal a car to get some. Another car. Yeah. They're looking for this one already. Yeah, this is bad stuff. So everything in there, and he, most of the charges are between 1967 and 1970 all around Morristown, New Jersey.

So right in this area. This is his stomping ground. He's a real problem. He is an issue in the late 60s and early, up to 1970, a huge issue. As a teenager, escape is his thing, by the way. If you catch him, you better hold him tight because he's not going to stay voluntarily.

Squirmy. He's a little squirmy one. We have these guys that are escapers, and that's always the weirdest personality type.'s like uh yeah you're right it's a personality it's a personality watching the right you're not gonna hold me it's like the rikers documentary there's i don't know 40 50 guys in that in that documentary yeah the most interesting man is the one they call uh a rabbit man yeah because he's a runner yeah and and it's that's what it is he's fascinating i just

want to sit and talk to him it's true and every jail running man that's what they call him yeah yeah running man yeah every jail book i've read too they always talk about every prison there's one guy who's like the escape artist who's like that guy broke out of like five jails and shit there's always that they love him yeah because he's like the he's like the you know the cowboy basically he's like the robin the stage he's like the robbing the stage. He's living the life they wish they could. Yeah, I want to escape out of here, even though then he just gets another five years. But still, this guy's one of those guys. So that tells you that you don't think about the future.

You're already locked up. Yeah. So if you try to escape, you're either thinking, A, I'm going to get away forever, which is probably an unreasonable thought. Probably not going to happen. Also, can you fly? Because no, you doing either of those yeah either that or i'm gonna leave and they're gonna catch me and then i'm gonna get an extra shitload added to my sentence but like i get to be free for three days is that worth it you know and also if you escape and get

away and then they catch you they're gonna add time to it they're also gonna put you in an area that's much harder to run that's the other thing and with him there's two ways people escape there's the people who try like to do it like you know they put a dummy in the bed and they escaped in the laundry basket and they sneak out right sneak out then there's the guys who are like the ben kramer guy who's like nuts let's fly a helicopter into the yard and try to lift me out of here and they drop me bolt cutters and i'll cut through the fence. That's the type of guy. Yeah. Or dot sick, just rip through it.

Yeah. That's the type of guy we have here. He apparently, according to Morris County officials, they said as a teenager, teenager, he once escaped from the Annandale Correctional Facility in a, quote, blaze of gunfire. Holy. So he somehow got a hold of firearms in jail. He was firing the weapon and yeah escaped and basically had a shootout as he escaped with uh prison officials so that's

as a teenager that's what he was doing and then heroin stolen cars a little bit of a loose cannon we got here okay so yeah a little bit so he's about so now he's born in 48 so we go to 71 june 7 71 so five days before his 33rd birthday here uh he is in jail and he escapes again this is the jackson memorial hospital for a this is down i believe in florida he escapes while basically he is in a jail hospital yeah and for a wound that he self-inflicted in jail okay got to the hospital where it's an easier place to escape there's less security and then he escaped he sawed off a leg shackle that's genius to get out of here a lot of guys do they got to watch that the running man that's what he was trying to get he was trying to get uh put into a psychiatric ward because it's way less security right way less security there yeah so that's how it always is that's all just easier living

basically if yeah so that's how that goes right there so that's jesus june 7 71 on purpose to go to the hospital to go to the hospital to saw a shackle off to run away wow this guy is a problem let's just say so while he's escaped from jail june 13th 1971 he uh the day after his birthday he now they he was in jail for a robbery down in florida that's why he was in there his roommate is a guy named robert j anderson who's 40 years old at the time so he's older than him they live in surfside florida i don't know where the fuck that is but it's an apartment in surfside imagines on the coast yeah by daytona exactly now robert j anderson hadn't been picked up yet for this robbery but james had and i guess robert there was some some thought on james's part that robert may be uh may have some loose lips about this robbery and may be trying to get himself out of trouble by implicating James a little bit more.

Son of a bitch. Absolutely. So what he does is he goes home to his apartment at 9208 Collins Avenue in Surfside. On escape? While he's escaped, he goes to his apartment where his roommate was, and he kills him. That's what he does. Yeah uh he kills him that's what he does yeah he kills him the police acting on a tip found robert j anderson stuffed into the closet of that apartment what the shit absolutely as they arrived as police arrived a man bolted from the apartment and they shot him yeah but he

wasn't seriously wounded and he got away what and that was jj that is jj here that man is identified as james kodach kodach who uh is who had escaped from the hospital there uh they ended up he was being treated for like we said uh you know self-inflicted wound and drug addiction as well and uh he had moved in with anderson after his escape and they said that he you know he came back there that was where he was staying he didn't live there beforehand that was his current roommate on escape and he said that they had been involved in an altercation and he had been killed they they think he strangled him so they charge him with first degree murder for this because he's trying to also cover up a crime here so in his defense though he's got a defense here. This is awesome. He says, listen, Robert J. Anderson made sexual advances toward me, so I had to murder him.

That's a fascinating defense. Yeah. The robbery and all that stuff is all secondary. Yeah. I'm mad at him for that, for telling on me and stuff. But he tried to put his dick on me, and that's where I draw the line. That's it right there. He said an argument occurred after that, and he had to kill anderson what else could you do he said uh flattered and walk away

right go hey listen i appreciate it that is no thanks but in his mind he's like you know so obviously i had to kill him he didn't say i woke up with him inside me he said he made a sexual advance to which your first response should be no thank you and then after that maybe if it was not if it's a violent right yeah that's a violent defend yourself yeah go for it fight back man yeah he was saying like i was trying to fend off he got two inches in and i pushed him out and then i killed him he said we got in an argument over it and i killed him which is way different. I'm not giving it to you.

Yes, you are. No, I'm not. I'll kill you. What? How do you get there? I can't imagine. So he told the story of the argument

and the killing to a friend of his, Marie Carr, and then she related it to another friend, Frank Morris, and then Morris went to the apartment

where he found the dead body. So that's how this goes. Never tell anybody that you killed somebody that's probably done so later this morris guy notified the surfside police and two officers went back to the apartment with him they were like okay show me the body lassie take me to it yeah and they did and uh yeah when they got to the apartment they tried to open the door but it was held by the chain lock and then uh tried to look into the apartment, they tried to open the door, but it was held by the chain lock. And then tried to look into the apartment through the windows, but he couldn't because the drapes were closed. So they grabbed the door, broke the chain and entered the apartment. That's when James J. was standing near the windows.

He didn't say anything when they entered or began looking for the body. He just stood there and they couldn't find the body until Morris said, no, he's in that closet back there. Because they were like, we don't see him. it was i guess blocked by a bed james had moved a bed in front of the closet at that point it was discovered and then james took off and eventually he's caught they chase him down i don't know if they follow the blood trail or what he's wounded he's a wounded man running so yeah he uh goes to prison for this at this point and he uh they end up giving him let's just say uh you sir he's convicted of second degree murder and uh you sir may fuck off 20 years in prison for killing him it's unbelievable he's wild it's so weak he's yeah

20 years for strangling a very bad man for covering up and even yeah covering up another crime so yeah awful one very dangerous man so far this is going to escalate this can't if he's willing to strangle a guy he knows yeah just to cover up a robbery it's not even a murder right that's in his 30s yeah um now january 13th 1972 he there's some guy getting a convicted robber sentenced to 99 years of hard labor jesus okay which seems i don't know 70s that was a punishment still i don't know what you could be robbing yeah for 99 years of hard unless somebody died right especially you know i don't know somebody vulnerable of some kind of child or something 99 years of hard labor seems excessive i feel a bit much a robbery is no anything is worth that that's crazy so what ends

up happening is this guy is convicted to this and then uh our man james jay here he steps up from the rayford state prison where he's serving 20 years for second degree murder. And he testifies that he and two other men, including the guy who he killed, actually committed the robbery. Not the guy you gave 99 years to. That was us. Oh, he's got a heart. Well, he's in for 20 years anyway, I feel like. I don't know.

He got 99 for robbery. You got 20 for murder. Yeah. What if they give you that? That's I don't know what he's trying to prove here. But he said that he and Herman were in his car at the scene, quote, sleeping off a drunk. And that dude had no part in the robbery. Just no part of it at all.

That's the Muncie robbery. This is the Muncie's were the people whose home it was. He said the everybody fled. They swam down a nearby canal and into the Biscayne Bay. Yeah. Jesus Christ. Gross. I know.

Gross. Gross. The detective here said that he took a police boat to the canal behind Mrs. Muncie's home and determined the escape route. And yeah. So they said it's all him. He did it. And they said, no, he didn't.

Basically, that's what ended up happening. They let the other guy stay in anyway. Yeah. They let him stay in because said it's all him. He did it. And they said, no, he didn't. Basically, that's what ended up happening. They let the other guy stay in anyway. Yeah, they let him stay in because I didn't believe him. They introduced evidence that the motel key and fingerprints found in the guy's car and at the robbery scene. So he was there. She also pointed out that James J. And Greenwood shared a jail cell during separate arrests. So they've known each other and they could have concocted this in jail.

Basically, jail officials reported Wednesday that after being returned from Rayford for the trial, he was misplaced and was again found sharing a cell with the robber. So basically, he figured out how to get into the cell and hang out and scheme with this guy. And yeah, the Greenwood guy had several prior robbery convictions as well so yeah so he probably did it he probably did it yeah so uh james j appeals his murder conviction here yeah he does he appeals it he says that there's reversible error because of his fourth amendment rights were violated due to the warrantless search of his apartment okay the seizure of the deceased's body the seizure of the body yeah how could you just take that how could you tell i was keep i was using that i was saving that for later

you don't get to just keep a body they can take that you don't say that's mine now it's generally i don't think you're allowed to i don't know legally you have to you have to notify someone that yeah that's you have to give it up you can't just hang on to that for a while so he's upset about the seizure of the deceased body which is maybe the craziest thing i've ever read in a legal document and the warrantless arrest well i mean if he ran away from a place with a dead body yeah even with a gunshot wound that's signs of guilt i'd be more happy to be in possession of ounces of cocaine than a dead body body stuffed into a closet where i'm the only other guy in the house i don't want any possession no i just yeah no matter how it died they're gonna figure out uh how to put me away for it i'd rather you walk in while i'm

sitting behind scarface's desk with you know just i guess i'm fucked i think i could explain that away better i could i don't know who put this here it's better than a dead body officer i'm glad you're here i've been looking at this i think it's okay it's this what do you i want you to take a closer look what do you think i was just about to call you guys it is oh get it out of here get it out of here i can't have this in my home jesus christ i got neighbors good god i tell the kids all the time clean their their shit up. What the hell? But with the body, you can't do that. No, you're fucked. There's no, you know, aw shucks. You can't go, you can't go and make it go away.

Problem solved. This is a dead 40 year old man stuck in a closet. Matter of fact, that only makes it worse. Gone. Or either way. Can be taken out. In or out. Inhale or exhale to get rid of cocaine.

In a way. So, yeah, they said that, no, fuck you. Stay in jail. You're affirmed. There you go. So he's in prison 20 years. September 6, 1973, we hear from him again. Oh, boy.

So he's really fucking. He's messing up. Yeah. Well, he's really fucking he's messing up yeah well he's not mouthy here this time he uh he's murdery oh because he stabs up a another inmate oh my god the florida state prison where he killed an inmate actually um so he uh jerry kent barber who was serving 12 years on kidnapping counts was was identified as the victim. The spokesman for the prison here said that James J. was being held in connection with this killing as well.

He's already serving his sentence, obviously. They said that he's being charged with another second-degree murder. They said that the other guy provoked the incident by threatening him with a razor blade. That's what his story was. James J. said, he threatened me with a razor blade. He told corrections officers that he grabbed Barbara by the neck and kept squeezing it until he was unconscious and then he ended up being pronounced dead at the scene so he strangled

this guy he's got two strangles under his belt now at this point uh yeah he disarmed a man with a blade and strangled him he did and then uh the prison official says preliminary indication from corrections officials say that this may have been a justifiable homicide. Really? Because, yeah, there's a razor involved. And I think they look into it less probably with a kidnapper and a murderer in a cell. And back then? Probably very little.

Like, he had a razor? I mean, that's possible. People have razors in here. I can see it. You know what I mean? I don't know how they dealt with it. Seems to be a go-to weapon there. He strangled the shit out of guys. So now he's got two dead bodies at least on him that we know of here

they said he may face a murder charge though after that and they never end up actually giving him another murder charge so yeah he's just gonna do his 20 years he killed a man and got away with it got away with it free like oj as new jack would say that is unbelievable that's crazy so october 18th 1982 james is released from prison after doing about 11 years and killing two human beings yeah two deaths holy robberies heroin stolen cars escape hail of gunfire sawn off shackles you name it 11 years out that's it it's just over half his time yeah 11 years he does so uh he is released there uh october 18th 1982 he's coming into a different world from 71 to 82 yeah very different world i mean you're talking from hippie to reagan it's a very different world completely different so he gets out of there and uh he uh

he'd been in there exactly pretty much 11 years almost to the day like a month shy of it he moves in with his mother in morristown new jersey really they let him go up to morristown new jersey okay and that's where he moves in back in with mom his mom his stepdad yeah stepbrother there younger stepbrother all sorts of people living in this house it's a lot imagine the environment he came from just put it that way and i mean i'm not saying i don't know it might be fine he might just have a screw loose but generally even in a house this crowded uh coming from the house he just got out of yeah it's pretty pretty uh empty and open that's true yeah maybe that was that reviewer's problem they were in prison the space i'm in is

overpopulated it's like all sorts of murderers and criminals everywhere i can't get away from these people i hate the block i live in yep that's it so that's october 18th 1982 he's released he's out on the street wandering morristown new jersey now november 21st 1982 this is two days before amy went to the mall and her mom couldn't find her. Let's catch back up with Amy and see what she was up to before that. Okay. On November 21st, she woke up at 1030 a.m. And at 1230, her childhood friend of hers and a fellow cheerleader arrived and drove her to a guy named Timothy Day's house where a group of friends were there and they

watched a football game on tv okay so that's where she you know went to a gathering of a bunch of friends sure sounds like fun watch the giants that's what cool i guess what cool kids did in high school yeah so at the conclusion of the football game this guy uh the timothy day drove his friends to rainbow the rainbow lakes firehouse where a spaghetti dinner took place in honor of the school's cheerleaders and football players. The firehouse. Yeah, it's probably a fundraiser for the school, for the firehouse or for the cheerleader cheerleading and football team or whatever. But, yeah, they're having a spaghetti dinner at the firehouse to raise funds for something so at the firehouse there was an incident not sure what but her friend karen who she had uh you know went to the party with or went to the to watch the football game

with at the firehouse during a spaghetti dinner hurt herself badly enough to need to go to the emergency room karen i don't know what you could do eating spaghetti in a firehouse that you could injure yourself to an emergency level but there's not even a knife involved it's big just twirl it what do you do like i don't know i'm nothing against karen but like how do you hurt yourself did she fall that maybe she came down the pole too hard dalmatian biter i have no clue what the fuck i i don't know what happened also stick around the firehouse they got a lot of tools to take care of well i think they just probably put the sirens on took her right to the hospital is how they did it probably. Throw her in the truck.

Yeah. So, yeah, that's what she did there. Amy accompanied her to the hospital. And also Karen's mother was there. And they were there for about an hour and a half while Karen was treated. They then went back to Karen's house and hung out until about 11 o'clock p.m. when a high school classmate who had been there and it drove Amy home so that's that's her day that day what a day not a not a

bad Sunday a little bit nutty yeah but I closed up pretty shitty closed up shitty with the trip to the emergency room but a football game and a plate of spaghetti is not a bad day not horrible can't go wrong there so on Monday November 22nd day, Amy woke up, but this day she stays home from school. That's the original Karen ruining a good time. Yeah. That's grim Karen. Karen's been shitty since 1982. Damn it, Karen.

Now she's injured at the firehouse. How do you hurt yourself while you're eating spaghetti, Karen? Good God. It's the softest food on earth did you not cook it and you stabbed yourself what happened so grim so grim poor karen so yeah that day november 22nd on monday amy does not go to school uh she has menstrual cramps she is cramping up pretty good so it's awful yeah it must be bad so she doesn't go to school her and her mom spend most of the day talking and hanging out and you know whatever so that evening her and her family

visit the uh close family friends of theirs the weavers that's how that goes that's her monday night so the next day is tuesday november 23rd that's the day we talked about she still felt sick so she went she slept a little late and went to school later she put on like we said the the pattern that we liked so much yeah he rusted in blue and now it makes sense now it makes so much more sense yeah yeah it makes a lot more sense now those are great colors for that i was waiting for you when we said the rust you're like that's a good pattern i was like there's probably i wanted to say there's probably a reason because i knew

this was coming but i was like tight wisdom we'll wait till we get there okay and then by the time we got there i forgot about it and i'm glad you've got it just in case i was like saving it for you so uh she sleeps late she does that uh she goes to school and she has lunch at school with her friend karen who i assume is recovered from her spaghetti injury and uh apparently it was just a minor injury yeah i don't know uh she's like i tried to get a strand up from my throat through my nose so i could go back and forth with it do the little the sauce just it got it broke and it was stuck in there it's just in my sinus they had to get a long tweezer and it was stuck in there. It's just in my sinus. They had to get a long tweezer. It was crazy.

It's the only way you could hurt yourself with spaghetti. I'm sorry. I don't know how else you could do it. I don't know either. I'd really like to know that. Tried to hang herself. I don't know. I don't know. That would have broke too.

It's not good. So Amy then, after school's over, accompanies Karen to a dentist's appointment in Denville. Her whole life is going to the doctor with this lady, witharen how about the dentist how about the emergency room i'm going to the chiropractor afterwards would you like to be there i've got a 6 30 abortion are you no not that i'm not saying anything about karen but just you know who knows who know anything that's amy has to be at the doctor with her i'm gonna go to the esthetician get a landing strip carved in you want to be there i'm gonna be there hold my hand come on so that's the difference women will do that too you're like all right i'll go with you whereas if you were like i'm gonna go get my balls waxed you want to come with me i'd be like for what

a why are you doing that b why are you inviting me no that's real personal between you and whoever's waxing your balls appreciate you not showing me that when you're done thank you that's real personal between you and whoever's waxing your balls. Appreciate you not showing me that when you're done. Thank you. That's the other thing. I don't want to see any pictures later. No, no shiny, shiny white scrotal pictures. Thank you. So the they returned to school at about two thirty.

So that was after lunch. So she went to school late, went to lunch and a dentist appointment and then got back to school. Yeah, because cheerleading practice is there, so she's got to go to cheer practice. That's how that works. Practice ended at about 4.45, and a girl named Karen Ursek, whose locker was next to Amy's,

noticed that Amy was wearing purple underwear, a brownish-purple sweater, a plaid skirt, like we said, and cowboy boots, like we said. Why are we looking at her underwear that's it'll come and it's it's important later so yeah but how did she see it because they're all changing next to each other not just a regular locker no it's the dress yeah not in the hallway i was like what 445 her cheer locker i didn't hear you say anything about a cheer locker amy is

you know she's very confident she's a very confident young lady and she's standing in a hallway purple underwear on being like that's right vote for me for homecoming queen no that's not what happened that would have been it's an aggressive marketing play i would say in high school so amy got dressed quickly and left at about 505 p.m because she had to be at her part-time job busy girl these if you're in high school and you have a bunch of activities and a job, you're a busy person. You got a lot going on. So she has to go there. It's the surprise store for women because there's also a surprise store for men, apparently. Apparently, they're clothing stores.

She's got a part-time job there. According to Christine Gonzalez, who worked at the surprise store for men, Amy arrived for work shortly after 5 p.m. She took a dinner break after 8, no later than 8.30. She went to McDonald's and ordered a Coke, French fries, and chicken nuggets. So she got some McNuggets.

By the way, this is pre-national McNugget rollout. Really? This is select market McNugget time still. Lucky. 81 and 82. New York always had the, new york market always had the test shit sure we always did like when they tried to have hot dogs the mcdonald's by us had hot dogs growing up yeah they tried to do hot dogs like the early 90s it was like hey hot dogs i mean what goes better with a hot dog than a hamburger than a hot dog but they looked like shit yeah were like bad. They didn't even look like gas station hot dogs. They were really anemic looking.

No, they were like a pale. They were gross looking, man. Jesus. They looked like shit. But we used to get all the test shit. So apparently she got to experience McNuggets early.

Good for her. So fries, a Coke, and McNuggets. Very popular cheerleader. Job at a clothes store in the mall having McNuguggets fries and a coke at her mall job as 80s as it gets yeah it's it's all it's basically stranger things is happening right now that's what i feel like we're in complete stranger things and every day

she's like this is so much better than what is probably going on in korea i'm sure amazing well maybe not maybe who knows they might have uh the test shit going on korea but we don't know yeah who knows i don't want to i've never been to korea that's a great point i can't say the koreans don't know that if it's north korea yeah definitely for sure for sure i've everywhere here if it's seoul who fucking knows everywhere here was i mean maybe cleveland but everywhere else, honestly, is no comparison to North Korea. It's got to be better, I would say. I mean, Cleveland, you know.

Touch and go. It's touch and go there. There might be some neighborhoods in Cleveland that are great. That don't have a Cleveland bar in the hotel room. The majority of the place is horrific. Yeah, it's not great. Wide open businesses. Boards on the windows.

Nice people, though. Unbelievable. We always say, worse the city, better better the crowd that's how it always is they're always the best people and they're always like oh this place sucks which i could go oh christ i wish i come with you i wish we could come with you you need a roadie people have said that to us a lot of time please take me with you i understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media would have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife.

Hi, my name is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast. We'll be revisiting all six episodes of part one and watching along with part two as it airs on Max, starting April 21st.

Bye-bye. The official Jin as it airs on Max starting April 21st. Bye-bye. The official Jinx podcast. Listen on Max or wherever you get your podcasts. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy.

The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity,

that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar.

And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal or you love to hop in the way back machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes you should tune in to our podcast morbid follow morbid on the wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts you can listen to episodes early and ad free by joining wondery plus in the wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. So Barbara Horwath, wow. Barbara Horwath, I just want to say Horwash, which sounds really weird.

Barbara Horwath, an employee of the Kodak Jewelers, who regularly uses the Surprise Stores restroom, saw Amy eating fries at about 8.15. She went in to use the crapper, and she saw some eating fries at about 8.15. Okay. And she went in to use the crapper. Yeah. And she saw some French fries. So, Chris. And these circle things.

And these circle things. I don't know what they was. Little hamburger chunks. I don't know what she was eating. They were brown. Tiny breaded burgers. I don't know. They were weird looking.

So, according to that Christine Gonzalez, again, the men's surprise store lady, she saw Amy again at about 920. This is when Christine helped Amy close the women's store and Amy returned the favor at the men's store. So the closing people helped each other close, which makes sense. That's cool. Close that gate, lock it and all that shit. You have the same policies on counting down the register. You know how to do it. Exactly.

One person can do one thing while the other one does. It makes sense. down the register you know how to do exactly one person can do one thing while the other one does it makes sense so um uh christine needed a ride home that evening uh she was stranded basically but amy doesn't offer her a ride because her mother was going to do her hair that night so amy told her i can't i have to rush home yeah my mother's giving me a home perm she's getting a home perm at 10 p.m at yeah that night so because then it's gonna set and all that shit so she's gonna give me the home perm and so i got to rush home she's sitting there probably with plastic gloves on yeah waiting for me so uh that's

what she tells her uh and uh they leave the mall about 9 35 amy is carrying her book bag still from school still got her backpack on so i mean looking like a high school student you know leaving the mall at the mall exit christine says good night to amy and turned right while amy went straight back through the emptying parking lot to her car so that's how that went and that's the last that's where she saw her there now barbara horwath again left the kodak jewelers a few minutes minutes earlier than Amy had left the surprise store. She walked out the main exit straight back into the back parking lot. She walked out with three other employees and they

gradually split up until they she remained with only one other person Debbie McClain. They stopped to chat for like five minutes. That manager isn't she? Oh my God. I couldn't believe it. She got I came back two minutes late for my break. Oh my God. Jesus Christ. I put a restroom in in the jewelers i have to go over to the surprise store it's ridiculous embarrassing and have you tried those knickknackets they make

you shit you i tried them they're delicious but man will you shit may have been that tiny tangy sauce it's a sweet and sour it's it was sweet and it made my stomach sour i was pooping and i shit shit up the surprise, I said. Surprise? Shit up your bathroom. Have a good one, crew. And she leaves. It's your fault for calling the surprise store.

Surprise. I left you a surprise. It's a big one. And where it is is the biggest surprise of all. You'll never guess. You'll find it next week. Good luck, everybody. Have a good one.

One of those circular clothing racks right underneath. The ones you hide in when you're a kid. Yeah, scare the shit out of your mom. Your mom goes, where are you, you son of a bitch?

This is great. And she fucking beats the shit out of you in public for that. This is so funny. I've been beaten public for doing that. Grabs you by the collar of your shirt. I've been smacked repeatedly in public for that this is so funny i've been beaten public grabs you by the collar on your shirt i've been smacked repeatedly in public for that just that that like uh that quick machine stuff i have those i don't know if that's just italian mothers that do that while you're in arm's reach i'm gonna

whack you as many times as i can it's not just one and then see the results some parents will do they'll hit the kid and then see what happened italian mothers are like they'll just they know there's a cry coming and they don't care which one it is many shots as they can get in before you're running away and they're going to chase you too but they assume that you have sneakers on probably you're faster i did that shit to my mom and she sat there i didn't move and then i heard her feet stomping away and i knew where she was going so i got out she's like halfway to customer service i'm like mom and she goes she has my sister in her arm and she ran back and beat me with her left that's what it is and we're not obviously condoning child abuse we're condoning child abuse on us yes we need it to be smacked don't hit your kids we don't want anybody to get hit

we're not i think it's funny the kids get hit but we think that old-timey kid beating is pretty funny when it's on us that we turned out fine generally essentially and that's the other part we haven't killed anybody well i turned out listen i did not turn out fine no no but i mean fucked up it wouldn't be funny if our whole lives were right that was like a big deal it was just if i was telling that story from behind bars it would be that would be worse yeah i'm just saying i don't know an italian kid that grew up anytime in the i don't know how it is right now but anytime pre-1990 1995 if they were born that didn't get the shit beaten out of them at some point it's just how it happened so now while they were talking bar, Barbara Horwath and Debbie McLean, Barbara notices in front of them a greenish blue vehicle with a vinyl roof and what she described as putty marks on the driver's side.

Yeah. You know that look. Fucking Bondo. Bondo. It's an older car. It's an older model. She doesn't know what it is, but it's not new. Sounds like a Maverick. Yeah. probably it's probably yeah a tornado or something duster

some piece of shit some hunk of shit dart with a vinyl roof yeah i mean every model really came with one of those a nova that hasn't been kept up something poor like that yeah something just shitty so um she ends up uh like i said seeing that the greenish blue car with putty marks on the side. The driver's side window was down about four inches. She said she could see the driver in profile. She said his eyes were dark. His hair was curly and light colored blonde curly hair is what she said. How she described his hair.

She said his nose was pointy. At one point, the driver turned and looked toward them. Barbara could see dark markings on the sides of his nose and under his eyes. She said his nose was prominent, you know, like maybe if you had glasses on. Oh, okay. Possibly like markings.

I thought you meant like NFL Sunday markings. Yeah, well, she said sides of the nose. Got it. So that makes me think that might be where's glass might be glasses possibly or something like or he had glasses on recently uh she said his nose was prominent and his hair was shoulder length and she saw quote gold around the collar so i don't know if that meant a necklace or what but that was what was described barbara says good night to debbie mclean walks past the car that she saw she She said she saw six rear lights, three on each side.

That's the setup. And identified the car as a Chevy, similar to her sister's Chevy Bel Air. She said she got in the car and drove down toward the mall. As she left, she saw Amy walking up the parking lot toward her car. So she passed her in her car. Like we said, Amy's mom is at this point. Some time goes by. Amy's mom gets to the mall at 1015, found the car in the parking lot.

Keys in the ignition. Amy's jacket, pocketbook and wallet are all in the car. Keys in the ignition. And she called the police at that point when she couldn't find. She went to the liquor store. No, Amy. That was the thing. Lights on.

No, Amy there. So that's when she called the police. Patrolman William Plate, a Hanover Township canine officer, came to the mall with his dog, actually, to investigate missing person. And once at the mall, they met up at Amy's car and attempted to get the dog, tried to get a scent on her. And after scenting, he picked up uh tracked about two parking spaces from amy's car but then stopped so yeah whatever car she's in was probably two spaces away yeah that's where the dog is the scent ended for the dog so uh they placed uh obviously they interpreted the behavior that the scent ended there and so they're they think that

she's she's been taken she's been taken if she's not home there's some problem here she's been taken and probably not voluntarily so by the next day this is the biggest fucking story in northern new jersey this is a you know gonna be a homecoming queen popular cheerleader pictures of her and her cheer outfit all over missing find her everywhere holy shit where's amy yeah oh at school oh man they go nuts at school they're showing their picture to everybody all the kids are going around trying to find her if only they had an amy alert yeah something yeah an amy alert would have been good instead of an amber well amber's fine too but you could have had amy back then maybe we should have started it yeah amber might still be here or maybe if amy if it was someone before amy it was like uh like an andy alert or i don't know some shit like

that maybe i don't know an alert going back and yeah i mean to the very first kid that ever yeah so i don't know what his name her as her name was there was a kid first time it was a long time we should have had whatever technology then plucked from a cave yeah and drawn now thanksgiving day uh the thanksgiving day football pep rally was to be held the next day as well so at 8 a.m the cheerleaders all got there half hour before the rally and the cheerleading coach said that the girls were all hysterical because she was missing you know that makes sense yeah that they're all freaking out so the coach this woman recalled telling the cheerleaders this is crazy by the way quote you have a job to do they're cheerleaders they don't have a job to do there's no job there's no even if they're

athletes there's no job you're a high school person it's you don't have a job to do. There's no job. Even if they're athletes, there's no job. You're a high school person. You don't have that job. You have a school waiting for a pep rally, and you have to think positively that everything will be okay. Wow. Yep. The cheerleaders cheered at the rally. Dry your eyes. Get out there and shake your teenage ass. Literally, I want to see some teeth.

Right. Smile. Like, fucking really. I mean, school spirit. I want to see canines. Yeah. I want to see school spirit pumping from you guys each girl attached a helium filled balloon with her name on it to a megaphone

and amy's balloon was tied to the fence near the field so this is yeah this is a really again grim this is a grim thing here obviously devastated are obviously devastated. Big time. Now, the coach said that she, her theory was that the killer was someone in uniform. She says, she tells the newspaper, I think the killer is someone in uniform. She said that Amy would go with someone in authority. She was very trusting, and she said that it might have been either someone who said, either that or someone who said they needed her help. She said she was very helpful and was someone who would always help someone and she said quote the one thing that always bothered me was amy's trust one thing that bothered me is she was a nice kid okay so thing that i hated about her was that she was just so trusting just trust anybody

so thanksgiving day 1982 this is uh there's a place called the old mendham waterworks She'd just trust anybody. So Thanksgiving Day, 1982. There's a place called the Old Mendham Water Works, located in Randolph Township. And it's got big water retaining tanks and shit like that there. Yeah, there's a big center holding tank there with water. They're made of cement, and they're very isolated and surrounded by three sides by woods. So, yeah, they keep them out there. There's a road called Combs Hollow Road located about 100 yards to the west of the holding tanks with a dirt road that leads up to the tanks,

a maintenance road. You know how that goes being an electric guy. You follow the road to a thing. A bridge separates Combs Hollow Road and the dirt road. Now, there's a couple here walking their dog in this area and they make a pretty bad discovery here they find amy in the tank face down floating oh no um she is wearing at the time they find her it's not good and what ended up we'll go into what happened here uh she's wearing the same panties she was wearing the purple panties so that's a thing that's why they said that same

underwear uh sweater skirt and cowboy boots that she had worn the last time she was seen same outfit completely now there's blood stains on the sides of the tank all over it amy's ring is found on the ground near the center tank and her wristwatch is found in the holding tank there and then there's a really weird part here her cut hair was found around the body as well as on the ground outside of the tank weird yeah somebody chopped all her hair up um a kidney shaped pool of blood 18 inches long and nine inches wide was found on the sandy ground near the tank a trail of blood led from the kidney shaped pool to the wall of the holding tank to the right corner of the center tank so the police obviously took her out of the water and she's

examined and they found a long open gash on the left side of her head, an L-shaped wound to her right shoulder, and short injuries at the base of her neck. Her left ear had been severed. What? I don't know if that was in the middle of cutting the hair. Leaving a deep wound that he said would not have caused death, but would have prevented her from holding her head straight

she couldn't wouldn't have been able to keep her you know together the equilibrium was so fucked up it this wound extended all the way through her soft tissue to the spinal column oh jesus so it was a like a chopped the ear off that's unbelievable like a psychopath um wow that's crazy this sure there was a short laceration at the base of her nose and two severe chest wounds, one penetrating four and a half inches. Stab wounds. The other penetrating more than seven inches. That's deep. Through her lungs and back between the ninth and tenth ribs, all the way through to the back of the ribs.

That's fucking brutal brutal that is absolutely brutal destroying her um yeah they think it might have been caused by a bayonet oh or a large knife similar to a bayonet holy shit the doctor concluded that the structure of the wounds that they were were that they were caused by a single-edged knife held perpendicular to her chest. He hypothesized the knife was inserted, causing the four-and-a-half-inch wound, then partially withdrawn, then thrust in deeply. Oh, Christ! Didn't even get it all the way out, causing the seven-inch wound.

Yeah. Holy hell, man. It's even worse, man. She had defensive wounds on her right hand, as though she attempted to grab the blade like it was a slice, like she grabbed onto it to try to protect herself. Also, abrasions and bruises on her left thigh, lower arm, consistent with her having been dragged over the retention tank wall. The internal examination reveals that she had apparently eaten a short time prior to her death and her stomach were found fragments of white meat from chicken yeah so that says number one that that

everybody's reports were correct of what she was doing and number two that there actually is white meat chicken and chicken nuggets which everybody has scientifically there is so i mean it is not to be it is white in color not to be yeah well he said white meat chicken like a real chicken that color he didn't say a chicken like substance a chicken slurries white meat chicken so at least back then there was chicken and chicken nuggets so um i mean there was not to get off the subject but um there was what appeared to be french fries and also what appeared to be a roll. I don't know where the roll was.

Were they given a roll back then? Not that I know of. I've never seen a roll at McDonald's. Maybe it was a test thing in Jersey. Maybe. You get McNuggets and a roll. There you go. $2.99.

I don't know. Rolls go great with chicken, we're told. So try this. Maybe somebody else had something she grabbed. Who the hell knows? So based on all the evidence, this this doctor estimated the time of death was probably four or five hours after she'd eaten her last meal okay so that's about two hours after two to three hours after she was picked up basically um now and also internal examination the doctor took swabbing of oral vaginal rectal swabbing, of course, and made 12 slides of the swabs.

He examined six slides and sent the rest to the medical examiner's office in Newark. Sperm is found in the vaginal slides, which obviously indicated that she was sexually assaulted as well. Found no presence of sperm on the rectal slides, but said that he thinks that she was violated. Something else. Yeah. In some way,

maybe there, but not no sperm. So he concurred. Another doctor concurred that the finding of sperm in the vagina and estimated intercourse occurred very soon after that, before that. So it was probably right before her death. Wasn't like the day before or something. He also, his examination however revealed that he did find sperm in the rectal slides as well

yes so this is fucking horrible the worst the worst nightmare that you could expect that your high school kids going to work at the mall and all this and then that this is the worst that could possibly happen when you tell them to be careful you're telling them to be careful of this not a fender bender be careful of someone abducting you in the parking lot and doing this shit to you and when i explain how it happened to it's not great uh the autopsy he also said she bled to death and the cause of bleeding was the wound to the chest that was the main cause of death there then and the cause of bleeding was the wound to the chest. That was the main cause of death there.

Then, obviously, check out the start investigating this. This is a lot of pressure. This is all hands on deck. Sure. Newspapers every single day. They're covering this. What's going on where, you know, I mean, it's huge. Everybody's freaking out, locking their doors, shutting their gates,

having alarm systems installed. It's one of those type of things here. So they talked to various people who'd been in the vicinity of the mall or the reservoir on that night, November 23rd. They talked to Mrs. Ms. Horwath. Like we said, they drew composites of the car and driver she saw in the parking lot there.

driver she saw in the parking lot uh there so uh um now on december 5th 1982 because of the similarity of the vehicle and facial appearance to the horwath composite a patrol officer in morris county uh morris of the morris county park police stops james jay yeah based on this matching description good stops and pulls him over the notes of that officer reflect that he is five foot ten and a half to six inches tall with a beard and mustache the composite sketch was of a uh blonde curly haired possibly with facial hair because the window wasn't down that far he only saw the nose the officer did not detain him though at the time right just took down information and i guess was like, I guess we know where to find you if we need you type of thing. But does not detain him, even though he's pulled over based on that.

That's keep that date in mind. December 5th, 1982. Very, very fucking very important that you remember December 5th, 82 during the day he's pulled over and not detained at all. So other information here came out of persons who were in the vicinity of the reservoir police talked to timothy o'grady who had been visiting his girlfriend's mother on morris turnpike just just drinking whiskey just sitting there drunk timothy o'grady it is near the reservoir in the night in question o'grady left about.15 to get home in time to phone his girlfriend who was away at college.

He returned to, he turned onto Combs Hollow Road, bearing in the direction of the dirt access road to the reservoir. He said he noticed a pair of headlights by the access tanks near the reservoir. The lights were heading away from the tanks down the access road. He paused before a narrow

bridge on Combs Hollow Road to let the car pass. The car had come down the access road he paused before a narrow bridge on combs hollow road to let the car pass the car had come down the access road by that time so it's one of those where it's too narrow so someone's got to stop yeah someone's got to stop basically so the other car had four headlights mounted side to side with parking lights beneath a graded grill and the car was medium to light blue all right that. That's what he saw. Yeah. Or a roadrunner. Something.

Yeah. O'Grady recalled the car's high beams were on. Once he reached home, O'Grady, who was a car buff here, he identified the car in a manual that he had, because he wanted to know what it was because he liked cars, as a 1970 Chevrolet two-door. Okay. That's what he had. So he knew that's the model.

The SS. Yeah. But it's a shitbox. you know that's the the model yes yes yeah well it's but it's a shit box it's not a nice one it's 1982 oh it's a 1970 and he's got putty marks and shit it's not a good one he's hit some trees a couple of times it's one of those where someone like 10 years later go oh what a shame yeah oh this could have been so beautiful or they'll restore it or something so uh he told police that there was only one person in the car and that the uh operator that he saw was probably a male who might have had a mustache but he doesn't think a beard but he's not sure so that's what he saw they also interviewed mrs mary clark who lived on combs hollow road and who heard about 12 45 p uh about 12 45 what sounded like a small sports car go by the house slowly

from the direction of the retention tanks she didn't know whether the car had come from the access road to the tanks or how it happened but the detective who interviewed her recounted that she told him she got out of bed when she heard the engine but saw no headlights and that the vehicle went up the road turned around and came by her house again she later said that she didn't remember telling the officer any of those things so i don't know if this lady is senile or what but i don't know she may or may not have heard and seen everything yeah so that's basically what they have to go on okay light blue car that's about it by the way the football team won 47 to nothing wow so the yeah there you go honor i guess so incredible so um yeah she'd been long knife or bayonet basically what they

think happened was she was grabbed thrown into a trunk and uh dragged out to this remote location driven all the way out there they got there pulled out of the trunk and then he had two hours with her probably so he was raped her and i'm sure there was bruises so beatings uh smaller cuts probably uh my theory i don't know what their theory is but my theory would be probably cut off the ear to try to make her more compliant that's that's if she was not cooperating as he would put it he might have done that to try to say cutting next i don't know if that was for his own whatever weird thing he had or if that was some sort of degrading obviously it's a degrading thing but i don't know if that was i think that's part of the control thing oh it absolutely is

there's a lot of serial killers who have done that they try they have to like they're making a mannequin almost of what they want also they want to degrade a person they want to yeah it's he's whoever this is fucked in the head this is certainly about both making them feel bad and him feel yeah i think it's about all of it here uh november 30th 1982 is the funeral more than a thousand friends and relatives attend her funeral. So a lot of people there. So December 5th, 1982. Remember that date? Yeah.

That's the date in that afternoon early. James J. was pulled over. Yeah. Fitting the description of the car seen by Amy and the person seen near Amy, but is not detained and is let go. So December 5th, let's talk about a young lady named Deirdre O'Brien. Yeah. 25 years old. She's an artist.

She's a, she's a graduate from Seton Hall University where she majored in art history. So being that she went to school for art history, she's a waitress. Obviously. Yeah. That's, there's not a lot of jobs in art history,

but any art degree. Yeah. It's tough. It's a tough go. It really is. So, um, but she lives in Menden, obviously yeah because that's there's not a lot of jobs in our history but any art degree yeah it's tough it's a tough go it really is so um but she lives in mendon mendon township with her parents they're pretty affluent um as we'll see they're kind of a they have like a a family rents a cottage from them that's in their prong their property they're they're pretty affluent here but right would that be right rent my cottage yeah i wish i could knew somebody that had one of those when i was that age and i could that would have been the greatest so no they own it though so she does that and from what i understand she's a pretty

talented artist too she's pretty good um she lives in mendham township with her parents james and georgia o'brien and her brothers uh she has a brother, James, and sisters, Aaron and Maureen. So she's got a full family life here. She graduated from Mount St. John Academy of Gladstone and Seton Hall University and worked as a waitress at the library, which was about a mile away from the shopping mall where Amy Hoffman was employed. So they all were kind of in in that area the two of them and uh although uh unlike uh amy though she uh o'brien here this saturday night of the fifth she's not working she uh she's not working at all she's still in the

area of this yeah there anyway but she's not hanging out sometimes she doesn't have it yeah maybe you can get a couple of free drinks if you're yeah if you're a waitress at a bar that's you go on an off night and you know some people nearby yeah yeah the bartender's never going to charge an employee never yeah so um what ends up happening is uh she's in this area and then uh next thing you know there's a rest stop on route 80 in al alamuchi alamucky and uh two truck two truck drivers before 4 a.m end up uh being awoken by pounding on the door of his tractor trailer this one truck driver and he hears screaming that a woman's been stabbed jesus so he gets out of the car and sees her standing there. It's Deirdre O'Brien, 25.

She's been stabbed. She's bleeding. It's four something in the morning. Her car, a gray Honda Civic, was found abandoned about a mile and a half from her home. This is on Washington Valley Road in Mendham Township. Now, this is, like we said december 5th there so uh they end up obviously investigating this a little bit further because once they she they said she just appeared out of nowhere um yeah they the trucker reached a lake uh lake lake hoppacong lake hop hoppacong lake hop hoppet hoppacong base unit operator who called the alamuchi green township

first aid squad that's an out of the fucking way wow she's lucky to be alive well at this point yeah in the meantime here the driver administers whatever first aid he can to her to try to help her covering her with his sleeping bag and attempting her to keep her calm and everything and whatever she said she was cold um uh yeah but they attempting her to keep her calm and everything and whatever she said she was cold um uh yeah but they take her to the hospital where she died oh no of her stab wounds um yeah uh so uh uh 2 10 a.m was when somebody saw her car by the way that was when her car was first reported over there and then she pops up at 4 a.m for something yeah so um they this is the account of the death here is that she was uh apparently uh when they found the car the headlights were on

the driver's door was open keys in the ignition no apparent signs of a struggle wow no apparent signs of a struggle yeah which is an interesting thing because you know how do you how do you get that well you there's a i know people who could get someone to step out of a car with no signs of a struggle and while leaving keys in the ignition and their headlights on the general what happens when you get a ticket yeah or someone thinks you do yeah so um yeah this uh uh anyway the results of the autopsy was that she stabbed several times in the chest. She there is conflicting reports on sexual assault. Like with Amy, the newspaper said no sexual assault outright at first to hold that piece of information, obviously, to know if someone was telling the truth, if they got a confession or something.

Here, it's the same thing. But later on, her parents say she was raped in this so i assume if her parents say so then i'm going to believe them yeah that they've probably seen some sort of report a doctor somewhere has told them that exactly so um basically uh what ended up happening was she was forced off the road they said there was uh some kind of uh she described it like this basically she was thrown in a trunk stuffed into a trunk driven 20 miles to the rest stop where this guy uh stabbed her four times in the chest and threw her out of the car and left her for dead wow so uh she was bleeding to death and she managed to drag drag herself 100 feet to the cab of a tractor trailer.

So this guy did this within 100 feet of a bunch of at a rest stop. There's a bunch of trucks with people sleeping. He doesn't know if somebody's sitting up in there right at that point. It had to take a leak or something. Could be Gary Howard making a podcast. That's what I mean. Who the hell knows what's going on in these trucks? Jason Fuller could be watching YouTube wrestling videos.

We have no idea what's happening. That's ballsy yeah she banged on the uh uh truck's cab like we said he woke up all that sort of shit um she described her attacker as well so she did get a description out um she knew she was dying and she was she said she knew she was dying and thanked her the truck driver for helping her which she was a nice person to the end there. She does succumb to her wounds. Her father has to identify her body. It's fucking horrible.

So people had heard a trucker calling for help on a citizen's band radio at about 2.45 a.m., which is weird. I don't know how that ended up, how that figured into it At 2.45 a.m.? Which is way earlier than that. So she's forced off the road as she was driving. They think it was some kind of lights forced her off the road. They think, basically, they think that someone posed as a police officer with some kind of blue flashing light,

forced her off the road, told her to step out of the car, grabbed her, threw her in the trunk, took her to a remote location, raped, stabbed, and then dumped her to a remote location raped stabbed and then dumped her at a rest stop where unbelievably for her she's still alive enough to be able to drag herself to give a description and a thank you this poor dear joe brian so here are pictures of the ladies jimmy by the way oh jesus yeah they're they're both adorable yeah and they're

both what they're both hair yeah they both have like a similar similar obviously one's asian very clearly asian and one isn't but they have a very similar face about them similar yeah structure structure dark hair that sort of thing so yeah it's uh they're both um deirdre's a couple inches taller but outside that, she's described as an attractive girl with dark hair, that sort of thing. One family who rented a cottage from her family on their property said that she was very nice. She said, quote, the children were so delightful. They were always so good to our family. She said that Deirdre was so nice.

A friend of Deirdre's boyfriend said he thought the couple were planning on getting engaged soon. He said Deirdre had returned home recently after she left a previous job outside the state and that the boyfriend was ready to pop the question. Finally, after a long relationship, one of the teachers she had in high school said, I don't believe what happened. This is Sister Lucille, a former principal at the all-girls private school she went to. Damn it. She said, I just can't believe this happened.

It seems like a repeat performance of the Parsippany girls murder, meaning Amy Hoffman. She's connecting them. She said that everyone at the school is frightened by the latest murder. Feels like a bad sequel. It feels bad. So, Deirdre, by the way, that was December 5th. Yeah. That happened at night right weird so just just talk to the cops yeah so deirdre worked at the store about a year ago this

is a uh a restaurant where she was at like she worked in the office in this restaurant and then she was a she was a waitress somewhere else okay so that's how she did that uh co-workers described her as very likable personable good employee her her boss said she was just a very good employee and a good waitress she had no enemies whatsoever and everyone here liked her she usually went straight home after work neighbor said she comes from a peaceful affluent setting there's horses roaming in backyards doors go unlocked up till now it's's just a, you know, affluent, beautiful area. They said she's described as an excellent student in school,

member of the art and literary clubs on the yearbook staff. Sister Lucille said, quote, she was the ideal girl. She came from a family where Christian values and moral values are stressed. So, yeah. So the two killings are, they be related maybe nah right um this is right from the paper the newspaper at the time this is the daily record uh despite the striking similarities between the circumstances surrounding the murder of o'brien and that of 18 year old amy hoffman of percipany the state police are making no connections between them, quote, at this time. You know, based on the similarities of how they were taken and how they were found, how it was all wrapped together.

No way. We think no connection at this time. How could that be connected? How could they do it? They said, according to Jesus Christ. No connection. And they said, you know, yes, because a because a reporter said well they were both young women dark hair abducted from cars at night keys still in the ignition yeah no sign of robbery

personal on the scene no signs of a struggle raped and dead yeah although it had although it had appeared that uh deirdre's car had been forced off the road as it was turned sharply onto a shoulder that was the only thing there and uh both women were killed by severe stab wounds from the chest at this point the paper says quote neither was sexually molested which isn't true they both were uh but they just didn't have a suspect yet so they're like despite all that we don't know we're not positive apart from the fact it's identical minus where the car is yeah that's it so christ uh they repeatedly said they're being investigated with both concepts in mind that both women were murdered by the same man and that there

might be two murderers they don't know which so they're investigating it equally on both sides just as some an outsider looking in it looks like he's perfecting murdering that uh the other girl he got her in a parking lot maybe i was seen if exactly get her out on the open road and just push that would be better less witnesses way less witness it's totally dark out that's i guarantee his thought and if he got pulled over that day what do you think he did when the cop turned his light on he pulled over and he thought oh genius how could i get a girl to pull over fucking a that guy pulled me over i pulled right over i would have done whatever he asked me to did it god damn it i bet a young woman would really be compliant with a police officer unlike an ex-convict murderer like myself so think about how the psychology there the police are so baffled and under so much pressure they bring a psychic in at one point get out of here bring a

psychic in uh one guy who's working not as a as the strategy but a guy who's kind of they have everybody on this case so one of the guys working around the edges of it a guy named captain jim moore contacted a local psychic named nancy weber who he knew already yeah so um his wife's psychic yeah hey come on over here honey uh another detective bill hughes was brought in on this as well. Weber told the police officers details about Hoffman's death that they didn't even know yet. That was in reports that they hadn't read. After a few initial meetings, they drove together to the crime scene, and Weber gave the police information about Hoffman's killer, telling them, quote, the man who did this, his first name may be james something with a j

what his last name is polish multiple syllables beginning with a k ending with an ish what the fuck yeah she said he came up from the south where he had been in prison before he used to live in this area oh i'm creeped out it's creepy uh this person do this she was uh she was not able not able to give specific areas where he lived, but she generalized stuff. She said she couldn't give us an exact address, but knew he had lived in Wharton, New Jersey, which he had. She couldn't give us specific information on an address, but she knew that he had been arrested in Mount Olive Township, which he had. Coincidentally, she came up with the information as they were driving by the very spot he was arrested wow because they knew where he was arrested and

they went actually he was arrested right fucking there where we just passed also arrest her she knows too much she knows too much she killed these girls she obviously killed these girls uh this was uh mount olive on route 206 had a roller rink we were this is the cop we were driving by the roller rink coming up on 206 and she got a feeling she said he's been arrested here before in mount olive township a long while ago a while back and that was right when they were passing the spot he was arrested as a teenager that is unbelievable that's fucking creepy uh now there's a couple discrepancies later on where the cops will be like, she actually said this and that, but it's pretty close to this.

If we have time, we'll get into that. She said anything near that. I'm blown away. That's what I mean. There's a thing trying to debunk the whole thing, which I'm not real into psychics either, but saying like really parsing the details of what she's saying, what the cop said. She said it's still really freaky. It's fucking freaky saying he's from down south and got arrested down there murder that's enough for

murder down there yeah it's a wrap i believe anything she says that's what and then the very part she came that they passed by yeah so december 8th 1982 there's a report of another abduction. And let me show you a map here. Amy Hoffman here. Deirdre O'Brien here. And this latest one is directly right in between them at Hanover Avenue. God damn it. So that's what they're thinking. They say a police responded to the report of an abduction.

A woman was reportedly witnessed being wrestled by a white male with brown hair, wearing a brown coat into a brown Ford Pinto, just all brown, in a secluded Morris Plain street. According to the reports, a bystander approached the woman and her assailant, at which point the assailant pulled a knife. Police later reported that on their radio that both the bystander and the woman were missing.

But this turns out to be a hoax. The whole thing turns out to be a hoax. There's all these rumors. People are freaking the fuck out now. They said it's a woman being wrestled away and all this sort of thing. It was a fake news story? Somebody just made it up. You cocksucker.

Somebody made it up. Why would you do that to cause the same reason you'd put road flares on balloons to make people think there's a UFO slam your fucking head in a refrigerator door and call it a day slam your nutsack in a refrigerator door never mind your head

you'll be more distracted by your nutsack pain and have no time for this fuckery blow out the pilot light and slam your head in your oven do that please do that you're a fucking asshole and then you're cock when you're i hate you so uh the police chief here said quote i assume if there were another murder committed i would be notified i have no such information so if anyone would know it's me so i think it's fucking false they said despite what observers believe uh are remarkable similarities they say they're still they're still not positive that deirdre and Amy were killed by the same person.

Now, around this area, there were other killings to October 1st. This this one is before he was even out of jail. Christopher Thomas, who was 16 years old, was shot while walking into the Rockaway Town Square Mall. Police are looking for a white male about five nine with dark shoulder length hair possibly a wig and a mustache which sort of fits his description but he's not out of jail yet and he's also not killing dudes no and he's not out of jail then there's another one though well you don't know what is what his pattern is though this is october 21st this is three days after he's home in morristown james r wesco 34 was stabbed in the early morning at the madison train station

police recovered a blood-stained fish filleting knife 300 yards from the station no suspect has ever been found for that so who knows um at this point people start putting up rewards the daily record gives one thousand dollars to the amy memorial fund um the donation raises the fund to about three thousand dollars uh the family is very thankful and um basically they were asking the parents do you you know do you not like this area now because your kid got killed and they were saying how no they're so happy that people are so nice to them and you know their people are caring december 23rd there's twenty one thousand dollars in rewards from the friends of the O'Brien family for Deirdre's recovery or whatever. Donations from three local residents here.

It was originally $10,000, and then they brought it up to $20,000, and then somebody else put $1,000. And the lawyer said, we don't know how much it will take to elicit the kind of information needed for an arrest or conviction, but we intend to continue our efforts to increase the reward fund. You shouldn't need a reward to get a murdering, stalking woman, killing rapist off the streets. You should want that person. If you know the dude does that, you should willingly just do that without money. I would say. Absolutely.

And the surprise store at the morris county mall also posted a five thousand dollar reward for the for amy whoever shit up the toilet yeah whoever shit up the toilet and if they also find out who killed amy and they shit up the toilet it's ten thousand so obviously fear is just this place has exploded with fear. Saturated. They said the stores found that women were not doing Christmas shopping at night anymore. Not by themselves. Husbands were calling home from work four times a day if they had housewives to make sure their wives were still alive. Women had candlelight marches through Morris County to show concern over the attacks. I mean, this was no shit.

to show concern over the attacks and i mean it was it was this was no shit uh the morris county mall a chapter of the guardian angels came down awesome to walk people to their fucking ditch i can't know is it curtis what's his name i don't know yeah yeah i can't with those people i can't i just fucking can't i get it i get it there was some good and some bad but the second you're putting on some crazy outfit and going on tv and yeah you've ended it for me you're going on donahue about it you're an asshole yeah you should have just said nope we're doing our job out here then i would have said no they're trying yeah but they were also there was a lot of questions it was all about them and they were there were criminals too right there were some questionable stuff anyway they were they were walking people to their cars nice basically a lot of they brought like a lot of big guys down there they said baseball bats and

shit giant dudes walking women to their cars here they said there was about 10 members of the group that operated from about 6 to 9 p.m yeah and then you know maybe if there was a few employees too so january 5th 1983 a 28 year old woman named Judy Brown, a telephone company employee, is shotgunned to death in this area as well. Sweet Jesus. Pan over township, yeah. She's shotgunned to death, and they're wondering, is this related? I don't know. It's similar, but it's not a knife.

But, I mean, maybe you'd switch it up if you did that. I'd talk to the husband about that one. Yeah, that's possibly. I'd see if, check the life insurance policy. And where's he been? January 18th, 1983. So this is almost two months after Amy disappeared. A month and a half after Deirdre's gone.

James here, James Kodatech here. JJ. JJ. At 1120 a.m. or 1120 p.m. that day, January the 16th, 1983, I'm sorry, patrolman Kevin Dormer responds to a call from 44 Harrison Street in Morristown. He enters the house. He sees J.J. leaning against the kitchen table with his T-shirt rolled up and Julia Baldwin, who's his mother, was washing a wound on his back.

Now, J.J. told police he'd been driving home on route 24 when he'd been pulled over by a car with a flashing blue light and he was told and he said that the driver of the car had stabbed him and then he got away what yes um he's taken by ambulance to the hospital the sergeant another sergeant also comes to the hospital. The sergeant, another sergeant, also comes to the car. He instructs police officers at the scene to secure J.J.'s clothing and car just in case as possible evidence leading to the arrest of his assailant. Maybe he left a fingerprint on the car.

Who knows? He could have touched the door. We don't know. A hair could have fallen off, something. So due to the similarities in the alleged attack on the on him and the similarities between that and the Hoffman and O'Brien abductions, the detective here, who's also investigating the O'Brien murder, gets called into the police garage to supervise a collection of evidence related to the stabbing. Okay? So he inspects JJ's car. He realizes that the tread pattern is not only similar, but identical to the one made at the impression of the scene of Deirdre O'Brien's abduction.

Uh-oh. Identical. And a comparison of the tire tread with the sketch in a photograph confirmed it to be perfect. Uh-oh. So he was right. He just had a good eye for it. So they notify the prosecutor's office and the state police that maybe we might have something weird here.

Search warrant is obtained for the 1970 Chevrolet. They remove a tire, take it to the lab for extraction of possible fiber evidence or anything like that. The seat cover is removed and the interior is vacuumed. Lab personnel also removed samples of the car's carpet the seat cover and the carpet were taken to the fbi lab in washington dc for analysis yeah now he insists that he was pulled off the road by a car with flashing blue lights and they said well where did this happen and he pointed out the exact spot where deidre o'brien had been pushed off the road so he's trying yeah that's what he's saying so he's like trying to build it like the similarities but he doesn't

realize that he's putting himself at scene they weren't even looking for him dude yeah they weren't even looking at him that's how it's eating him up um he says that he's forced off the road stabbed the man has been the back by a man who got out of the car that was following him. They said when they spoke to him, he was very calm, unlike a man who had just been pulled off the road and attacked by a stranger with a knife. Stabbed. And stabbed in the back. A pathologist, who's an expert in stab wounds, examined the tears in his clothing and the wounds and found that he had stabbed himself.

Yeah, they don't want... He stabbed himself in the back. And yeah, after that, he said he was. They checked his car for evidence and all this sort of shit. Tests show that fibers found on Miss Hoffman's clothes were identical to the fibers found in the carpet of the car and the seat covers. Bits of foam rubber found on her boots were identical to the foam rubber from the backing of the seat in his car. The back of his back seat from the trunk yeah yeah she was kicking it so um yeah so he's arrested only for deirdre's murder right now arrested for deirdre's

murder um uh yeah this is ridiculous though he did it right there like how obvious can you fucking be you dumb shit that's just so stupid um yeah they said that the thank the police thanked everybody for their witnesses and all that sort of shit thank you really we thank the murderer for giving us all the he literally called us to his house to fucking to come get him like how stupid is that holy shit um took 12 hours of talking to him before they ended up arresting him he does not confess though no there's no confession out of him they said that uh they checked the scene the vehicle and that's how they found it what they're doing here they described him as a quote native of morris county and they said he's remanded on a 250 000 bail which it should be i would assume 250 bazillion yeah i mean whatever however much you want to put

now there's witnesses here uh mrs helen cato, she says that in mid-November in 1982, she stopped at the Morris County Mall at about 3 o'clock to do some shopping. She remembered it was a Monday because she visited the friend that she visited every Monday. So she said it was a sunny day. She parked her car and was smoking a cigarette and listening to the radio in the parking lot when she's just hanging in the mall parking lot smoking a cigarette in the car i've done it wow i lived it as a teenager she said that uh she heard a loud voice at that point she saw a man and a young woman walking from the mall toward her vehicle she recognized the young woman as amy hoffman a cashier at the surprise store because she'd been in there the man she says was jimmy jay here um who was in the room with mrs kato here

later on uh when she says this she described him as quote had a quote face like a hawk was wearing blue and white sneakers blue jeans and a denim jacket she said he looked familiar he let she later realized that when he was a young man he had been to her house with her teenage daughter in the mid-1960s jesus uh yeah as a she said as they approached the car mrs kato heard him say loudly come here come here god damn it i said come here i'll kill. At Amy. So she said the woman was unresponsive, Amy, at first, but became flustered and dropped the book she was carrying. She had her

books with her. She picked them up, stumbled and jogged away from the man. And that's all. She didn't think to go fucking follow that. I'd have ran that fucking guy over. If I'm in my car and he's chasing her on foot, I am running that guy over. I'm literally going to get behind him, beep and go, I'm'm gonna run you over if you don't stop chasing that woman i swear to fuck dude i'm gonna hit the gas you're going over my windshield unless you stop this is

why i carry guns james you better stop and explain yourself what are you gonna shoot the guy that you're going to prison he hasn't done anything shoot him right away anything you do with a gun you're going to jail for i'll go to jail for it. I'll go to jail for it. If I save the woman's life. But what if you didn't? I won't. What if you didn't? What if they were playing around? You're in prison.

Never good to shoot people. Then I had a fun day. You know what you should do? You should call the police. Run him over. You're going to jail too. Who you get paid. No, I threatened to run him over.

Hey, beep, beep. I'm going to run you over, dude. I feel like that would be like, oh, maybe I'll stop then. I don't know. You can't shoot people though. you're less likely to go to jail for threatening someone with your car than a gun i bet both no but not not for the length one is only a weapon one is you really have to want it to be put it that way so now amy's friend christine gonzalez she said she was the one that was with her she said uh before

that she said that she didn't approach the police till after initially uh uh after initially because she had never seen pictures of james jay she said that while she uh while all this was going on she suddenly realized that she recognized him as a man she'd seen many times at the mall yeah james j she said that four times in september and october she'd noticed a man with a very long face high cheekbones brownish hair and one or two days growth of beard standing outside the station um there and that she that that that was him yeah basically so she's been hanging out looking at her basically is what she's saying. So the lady that saw this all happen, she just saw him in the mall wandering around. That was weird.

Yeah. That's going. There's a lot of weirdos that hang around. Oh, that's not the one in the parking lot. OK, lady in the parking lot. That's that's my point. I'll kill you. Like, all right, now get involved.

That was a weird night. Yeah. I got to get the hell out of here. Jesus Christ. Yeah. So then there's a woman named Diana Bassard. She says that she stopped in the mall in October, mid-October 82, stopped at the mall to do some clothes shopping. Once in the mall, she looked for clothes in Bradley's, the Fashion Bug, and the Surprise Store as well, where Amy works.

After she entered the Surprise Store at 845, she walked to the back of the store and saw her words not mine quote a young oriental girl with long hair being talked to in a loud voice by an unkempt older looking man what the fuck many people seeing this the man who was tall and thin had dirty blonde brownish hair a

thin face with high cheekbones bones several days worth of growth of beard was speaking in a loud voice about dirt bikes. I'm going to go to the mall and yell at the chick who works at the clothes store about dirt bikes. I'm going to try to impress the young girl. What the fuck?

I'm riding a motorbike. What are you talking about? Got it in the woods. You want to see it? It's a two-stroke. Okay. It's so loud. it smells great when it's running i don't understand it it's not funny but it's fucking ridiculous what kind of she said that the girl was not taking part in the conversation she was basically like he's like the crazy guy who comes in the mall and yells at people and everybody

knows to just ignore him and he'll go away that's kind of what it seems like he is um after several minutes in the store this woman said she left without purchasing anything she and later on when she saw a picture she identified the girl as amy hoffman and the man as of course jimmy jay here oh my now items seized as well during the search warrant at his house first is a a photo album Jimmy J had on his nightstand. The last five pictures, the last five pages consisted of pictures of quote, oriental looking women. Wow.

That's it, different ones, just pictures of them. Yeah, next to his bed on his nightstand. The second item was a letter addressed to him from Japan International and enclosed were three more pictures of Asian women. What? So he's got he's ordering away for pictures of Asian women. Lord.

Yeah. The state's theory here is that this demonstrates his interest in Asian women and explained that everybody here why he pursued Amy Hoffman over other women. Amy, of course, who was obviously asian um so uh yeah they ended up the court though will not let that in a trial they exclude that as no facts to support the contention that he wanted to have sex with her or to abduct her because he was sexually attracted specifically to asian females okay which if he what more do you need he did rape her so that means i would say that means he probably that's why he picked her up right you know do you need lotion and a butt and a pile of tissues next to the fucking book what do you want i'm saying he obviously wax it

to asian chicks he loves it she's an asian nightstand he raped her and killed her it's pretty clear he puts himself to bed here he is by the way jimmy would you like to see a picture of the devil there he is yeah so um yeah he's got like one of those awful beards awful beards and a bad face he's just a bad looking guy fucking beard looks like pubic hair it's so bad it's a terrible beard it's all weak in the cheek yeah no good weak in the cheek in the cheek connected on the on the side of his mouth but his cheeks are weak and the chin's even spaced apart it is you got good you can't have weak cheek beard you have to your beard your cheeks have to be full you can get away with some shit in the middle but your cheeks got to be full he looks like shane from love after

love he looks exactly that beard is exactly like shane if you shave it down it looks like look at his face the rectangle goatee and he's losing his hair the same way by the way that poor shane on love after love he is 22 when he's 25, he's going to have no hair. None. He's combing forward and you see he's got big horseshoes. I'm like, whoa. It's all thin too. He tried to pull a mohawk.

It's real thin in the places where it is there too. It's just overall thinner. I'm like, whoa. It's not good. Not good at all. Bad stuff. He wanted to have three kids with this woman bad stuff bald by the time he's 22 and a half oh god yeah he's like maybe three kids she won't leave me when i'm so bald later six months into this pregnancy you're gonna have no hair none so the trial comes in october 84 yeah now he's arrested for deirdre's murder first but then they charge him with amy's the trial is amy's trial first trial for amy um now they lay out the first part is microscopic

evidence uh obviously they say that uh after he was quote unquote attacked they checked his car they did tests they found the fibers i told you, foam rubber on the boots to the backing of the seat, everything like that. Second part was testimony from eyewitnesses who saw a man who saw him and saw a car that looked like his near places where Miss Hoffman had been seen all the time. They think she was he was stalking her possibly. He's a predator. Yeah. At the end of the at the end of the case, the prosecutor says, when all the evidence is in, I will ask you to find this man guilty of murder. His lawyer, though, says there's more to the story than they're putting forth.

This whole case is based on innuendo. It's based on inconclusive evidence, he says. Yeah, so Harold A. Dedman of Washington, he's the FBI forensic specialist on fiber comparisons. He testifies here to show all the so inconclusive that fibers from the car were similar to the were similar to some found on her skirt. Another expert from the defense said the fibers were too common to be sure where the whether they came from the car or not because it's Chevrolet carpet. Now, there is trial transcripts here that I have of like, I can tell you they said like,

this particular skirt company puts out 400,000 yards of this particular fabric, which regions they go to, what to the odds of what the, dude, we could go on for three hours on the. The odds of that fiber being in his trunk are so slim. That's the thing we could do. They're just saying the fibers common. So it might not have come from the skirt could have come from anywhere.

But why is it in there anyway? So we could do like a two hour bonus episode on just the trial, the forensics and fiber and fiber evidence. I'm not even shitting you. If anyone was interested, we'd do it, but we're not. So we'll get through the story. Okay. defense here this is their arguments number one that uh he doesn't match the description given by witnesses as he was not blonde and had a uh and a beard and mustache he had too they said one state witness was simply mistaken and had overreacted perhaps

subconsciously to the publicity surrounding the case so later on they were you know they realized false you know a false recollection that uh that night he said he had an alibi he'd been home playing atari games with his little brother so lock stock and barrel alibi there you're in and number four that fiber and foam correlations proved nothing and that number, convincing evidence existed that the murder had been committed by another, namely Kevin Sheehan, an assistant football coach at the high school that Amy attended. Oh, yeah. We'll get to that in a second here. So they have to fight to try to get that evidence in. They want to introduce that alternate suspect, but the judge will not allow it because it's testimony about this guy, Kevin Sheehan,

saying that Carol Speak, a friend of Amy's, said that she knew Sheehan and that he had made obscene phone calls to a pay phone near the cheerleader's locker room. That's what it was. Gross. She recalled answering the phone on several occasions. On each occasion, the male voice asked for Ms. Beth Thomas, a fellow cheerleader.

On none of the occasions did the male caller ask for Ms. Speak or Amy. Ms. Speak testified that she never actually heard the caller utter obscenities over the phone. She also said that she did not associate the man's voice with anyone and that she did not recognize the voice as the voice of the football coach so uh she said that she had known mr sheehan since the time he began working at the school as a coach she said however that she never saw him uh observing her or amy she also said that she did not become aware of mr sheehan that he was the person responsible for the phone calls until after amy had died so they also said uh they said that's inadmissible and hearsay and doesn't help any. So they said there's no casual connection or link between the fact that she took two calls in a telephone booth outside the cheerleaders locker room and the death of Amy Hoffman or her apprehension or kidnapping or anything of that nature.

So a man called for somebody else a few times yeah it's got to be that he must have killed her and another woman too that has nothing to do with the school nothing to do with anything so she also said the speak said that amy lived alone for a little while uh for about a month while her parents were setting up because her parents ended up moving down to virginia yeah they were like setting up move. So she was alone for about a month, and that she held at least two large, unsupervised parties that fall as well. Oh, she threw a couple ragers? Oh, boy.

Could have been anybody. So this asshole attorney, this defense attorney, argued that he wanted to show, quote, that the party lifestyle made Amy Hoffman a murder target. Yeah, because she had a high school party. That means she's going to be kidnapped from a mall, stuffed in a trunk, stabbed, raped, and thrown in a fucking over a retention wall. Yeah, that's a reach.

That's a little bit of a reach. Oh, boy. Come on, man. That's insane. Well, he might as well have said, she had a skirt on. I mean, Christ, what do people want? She's an Asian with a skirt. How's anyone going to resist it?

You know what I'm saying? I heard she had purple panties. You know how hot that is? Cowboy boots and everything. You know how that is. Like, what an asshole. Fucking jerk. Jerk, man.

Right now, this is what he says. She had beer with kids. Oh, no. I'm telling you, James. No, I don't believe it. This is what his lawyer says in open court. In court. In front of people.

To people. Other people who've been to law school, too. He said words to them. Wow. Quote, reporters, write it down. Yeah. Quote, right now, before the jury, I have a wholesome cheerleader who's the victim of a crime. I want to show she's like any other teenager.

She's going to buy beer, and she could have an affair with a football coach. Holy shit. No fucking indication of any affair with any football coach. Wait a minute. Did he just say that all high school girls fuck the football coach? Just like any other girl. She's going to buy beer. She might have had an affair with the football coach.

Jesus. Basically, he just said, just like any teenage girl, she's asking for it and it happens. She's a drunk loose woman we gotta show her that's it i mean she was two seconds away from just walking the streets selling her ass i mean what do you want we think she might have had a crack habit we're just saying we don't know she was freebasing all over the like what what an asshole this guy is i mean this is i you have to i feel bad for for a defense attorney in this case because what do you do with something that's fucked what do you do besides go but throw your humanity out

the window how do you do that that's just how do you how do you just trash a poor girl yeah and if that's the approach you your client wants you to take you go no no i can't do that you do in front of a jury disbarred there's gonna be plus there's people you just don't do that you wouldn't say i could never say that in front of a room full of people going to be disbarred. Plus, there's people. You just don't do that. You wouldn't say, I could never say that in front of a room full of people. I would feel disgusting. I have a mother. In this regard,

what I just said. Can we strike that judge? Can you tell them to strike and I know I'm not allowed to. I know I can't. I'm not allowed to strike that. I also am not allowed at Thanksgiving dinner now

because my mother's going to disown me. No shit. Jesus. For what I just said. So Florence Hoffman had to testify. Mom,man had to testify mom right she had to testify crying through the whole thing poor woman talking about how she had talked to

her the day before a lot because she stayed home from school and all that sort of thing she was breaking down repeatedly on the witness stand um james jj here was basically staring right at her through her whole testimony burning burning holes through her. Well, she wouldn't make eye contact with him because she's a nice woman. Yeah, she testified and everything, you know, to what happened, what I described before. Now, there's another thing that he wants to be introduced, James J., into court. That is a call from a quote, unquote, I'm using air quotes, psychiatrist that came into the police station. Listen to how ridiculous this is.

This is a month before he's arrested, by the way. The defense seeks to introduce the testimony of a Lieutenant Raymond DiBiase of the Morristown Police Department who received a phone call on December 14th, 1982 from what he called a quote, self-professed psychiatrist who said that he had a patient, a construction worker who might have committed the murder and that his patient had been attracted to, quote, Oriental women who had continually rebuked him. So they said this argument, this obviously raises the possibility that this was another guy there. obviously raises the possibility that this was another guy there so the judge goes it could also have been him calling the fucking cops because he called the cops trying to throw them off for the other thing excellent point so why why would this be real right you know what i'm saying like it's all he's trying to he put that out nothing happened so he's like okay what do i do now um

i'm gonna why would you do that what a jackass also his stepbrother uh there's a bunch of other they there is witnesses they call like 10 different witnesses for days talking about whether he had a beard or not literally his mother saying he had two days worth of growth on this day but then on Thanksgiving he had no beard or he had a beard he and then they say they had no beard so how could he have grown a beard in three days like they go back and forth on the beard like crazy whereas that's something that someone could see a few great days of growth as more of a beard or less of a beard it depends that's an arbitrary thing in the dark too or quickly sometimes you trim it i mean i mean one could say you have a beard right now it's a stubble but that's definitely a beard yeah you could start a one

that's what i mean yeah and i've got uh two weeks worth on my face at the moment it's a lot of beard yeah but if someone said big long beard you'd probably get a short beard right i could say it's a long beard yeah for me it's a long you know so who knows depends on what long is imagine that in court for three days with multiple people that's why we're not going over it and you gotta be a juror sitting on that fucking painful get it there was a hair on his face. Oh, my God. So this is David Paul Baldwin. It's his stepbrother. He goes to high school and lives at home.

He said that JJ and him, they said that he had a beard that fall, and on the night in question, he was upstairs at home playing Atari most of the evening, at least until 9 o'clock, which doesn't matter because the fucking abduction happened at 945. least until nine o'clock which doesn't matter because the fucking abduction happened at 9 45 so if he'd played he could play atari till nine and then go out and you know act out as asteroids fantasy i have no idea whatever it is um finally though he also testified that the sneakers seized in the search of the house associated with him by a witness were actually a christmas gift to him in december so they couldn't have been that. Mistaken shoes. Verdict comes in.

Jury deliberates for 11 hours here, and they're charged. They retire at 11.20 a.m. While deliberating, they request testimony of a bunch of people, Diana Bussard, Christine Gonzalez, Helen Cato, Timothy O'Grady, a bunch of all those witnesses, basically.ine gonzalez helen cato timothy o'grady a bunch of all those witnesses basically they also requested the testimony of florence hoffman regarding amy's whereabouts blah blah blah they come back after those hours and find him guilty on all counts

murder kidnapping aggravated sexual assault unlawful possession of a weapon with intent to kill. A whole deal. Sentencing comes around here. The aggravating factors are going for the death penalty on him. Lethal injection all the way. One, that the defendant had been previously convicted of murder, which was second-degree murder in Florida. That the murder was committed while he was engaged in the commission of flight or the commission of a sexual assault or kidnapping which he was and that the murder was committed for the purpose of escaping detection and that the murder was outrageously and wantonly vile if any murders outrageously and wantonly vile i'd put these two up there those are them right at the top of the list of basically anyone they anything that you could do to someone over 18 this is as bad as it

gets you know the only way to go worse would be to be younger that'd be the only way we're or a lot Basically, anything that you could do to someone over 18, this is as bad as it gets. The only way to go worse would be to be younger. That'd be the only way. Or a lot, lot older. One of the two. Or do it longer. Yeah, longer. Or have the person be 85 or 7.

Yeah. One of those two. That'd be the only way it would be worse. And even that's obviously subjective. So the jury here, it's the same jury, by the way, four and a half hours of discussion on that and they say, let's see here, you, sir, may fuck off. Death penalty for you, sir. Hell yeah. Death penalty

plus a 30-year prison term with a 15 year period of parole ineligibility on the kidnapping count and a concurrent 20-year term with 10 years of parole ineligibility for the kidnapping count and a concurrent 20-year term with 10 years of parole ineligibility for aggravated sexual assault sentences to run consecutively uh to the sentence for murder should the death penalty death penalty be overturned got it so if it's

overturned and he gets life he's got another 25 years and then before everything before any possibility of parole on top of whatever his murder sentence would be. So even if they say the murder, they just wash the whole sentence off. He's still got 25 years with no parole. Good. So it's a good deal here. Also, he has to pay, levy a fine of $1,050 to payable to the violent crimes compensation board. His brother here, JJ's brother, Jeff, said, said quote i'm very surprised with the verdict are you are you really he said that his brother definitely had a beard at the time of the murder and that the

sperm and pubic hair found on the victim do not match those of his brother even though every science that we've looked at says they do but there's no dna yeah so they're matching types yeah this is uh all very it. It's black and curly. Could be anybody. It literally. And it matches his, you know, characteristics is what they would do. April 85 trial for Deidre here. And I don't mean to cut her short, but it's a lot of the same thing.

It's they testify evidence through the murder tire tracks, paint chips, traces of fibers, all this same sort of shit, basically very familiar to the first trial. They have the truck drivers testify. The defense says the fact that there's no blood in the defendant's car creates reasonable doubt, which not really, because he grabbed them as the murder after they pulled them out of the car and murdered them. That's exactly what happened. Yeah. He said, quote, I don't know why Deidre O'Brien was murdered. I'm just getting it out in front of you, ladies and gentlemen, that these facts exist. What facts are those?

The fact that he's trying to say Deidre O'Brien was into cocaine and someone would have killed her for that. He said that the woman was carrying two vials containing traces of cocaine and a spoon used to sniff cocaine and he wanted that admitted into court and they were like for what spoon to sniff cocaine little the little is that what you did oh the little guy yeah the little guy you said a little glass jar yeah that's that's early 80s style he's talking like a like a dessert spoon like a tablespoon like she's really getting it eating a bowl of fruit loops she's getting into it hard so um yeah uh they said that uh the lawyer says the defendant definitely did not kill this girl god forbid there's no incriminating evidence although he knew exactly where she was pulled over when he was faked the exact same thing that happened to her you know it's so it's kind of a

big deal big deal here that's as good as a good as circumstantial evidence as I'm going to get. There is no way the chances of him picking out exactly just for shits and giggles are zero point zero zero zero. The psychic wasn't even that close. Right. I mean, the prosecutor says everything points to this idiot over here. He might as well have a sign saying, I murdered Deirdre O'Brien because that's what it points to. He might as well have a sign saying i murdered deirdre o'brien because that's what it points to he might as well have a sign saying i murdered her um verdict comes in pocket guilty

yeah just so guilty they just want to kick him in the balls they find him guilty but they cannot sentencing they cannot agree unanimously on the death penalty really uh so he draws you sir a fuck off uh life imprisonment with no chance of parole for 30 years okay so that is 55 years so far and a death penalty with no so he's stacking it pretty good he's really making a mountain for himself he's not climbing out of this no the judge called him quote evil depraved and dangerous yeah yeah good 87 amy's parents sue them all and get 315 000 from him for lack of security brilliant great they should have some goddamn security there um now he appeals the the amy thing uh thing the conviction he appeals it and they hold that there was a bad uh there was a basically the the

instructions on the death penalty weren't good they say that he it was reversible error they charged the jury that mitigating factors must outweigh the aggravating factors in order to them to not impose the death penalty which isn't true they just need to have some that they can weigh not outweigh okay um so that said they uh they toss his death sentence remand him for a new sentencing uh september 1988 state says we're gonna go for the death penalty again fuck this guy 1990 new sentencing you sir again may fuck off life in prison this time without life with okay but it's not until whatever 30 years or something so he's in prison january 2011 he wants a transfer so he to illinois so he could be closer to his family what the joliet i don't know where the hell he went so he wants to uh blah blah where does he want to go i don't know somewhere in

illinois doesn't say to be closer to and they say, probably improves his chances of escape, so no, fuck you. And it pissed the family off big time that he was even asking for it. They went hard at the state, like, you do not fucking give him shit. Don't get him near us. No, and Deirdre O'Brien's parents

are pretty powerful. They got money, so. Good. They were pushing. February 2018, way up, right up till now. Oh, the families of the victims were pushing to keep him there. Yeah, yeah, to keep him there. I, the families of the victims were pushing to keep him there.

Yeah, yeah. I thought you meant his family was telling him to keep him out of Illinois. They probably threw him out. No, we don't want him in Illinois. He wants his DNA tested. He says. Oh, that's ballsy as shit, man. He says, I want my DNA tested.

He's been convicted twice here. He said he will prove that he didn't rape and murder her. The Morris County Prosecutor's Office located five microscopic slides. Remember how I mentioned these microscopic slides? What do you think I mentioned shit for nothing, Jimmy? Not on them. Containing sperm cells recovered from the body of Amy Hoffman. The slides were in the possession of the Medical Examiner's Office.

Now, the Superior Court Judge signed an order calling for them to do it. He's got the right to ask for this. They need the presence of intact sperm cells. The state police unit cannot take any other steps other than examination without a court order. And yes, so he says he requests the DNA in 2013. There's a law that in 2013 allows him to request this. Prominent victims rights advocate who's in touch with the Kaufman family said he's got nothing else to do in prison.

One of the many jailhouse lawyers put this idea into his head. October 2018, the state police lab attempts to test one slide, but because not enough materials there to create a profile to be extracted, it could not be compared with his DNA.

So he was brought into court and uh he has one single remaining slide left that they don't know so he doesn't want it tested because he doesn't want it to be destroyed apparently so he does want to go to the innocence project though so he asked them to help him and uh there he wants help finding an independent lab to test the slide someone better than the medical examiner. If a lab is found that is acceptable, the lawyer said he might renew his motion to have the semen sample tested. Innocence Project guy said that they don't comment on individual cases unless they commit to working on them, obviously. The judge said, I don't think there's closure in these circumstances or in any circumstances where there's a violent crime involving the death of a child be that as it may as far as i'm concerned

at this point in time the case is closed keep fucking off um yeah so i'm so nervous he does not get out there on her on either of these girls being sexually active and having sex with somebody else is that what he's banking on that's what i mean i don't know i think he's got to just be looking for attention or something because he definitely he did this he did this so um yeah the other guy said quote the prosecutor i don't see any validity or possibility for kota titch uh but he's taking shots in the dark he's got nothing else to do in prison okay so uh quickly here uh james o'brien that's Deirdre's father, 10 years after her house formerly deirdre o'brien child advocacy center in morristown new jersey a facility with which assists child victims of violence and witnesses to domestic abuse right they're still active looks like a really great thing it's www.deirdre

d-e-i-r-d-r-e-s house.org so it seems like a good thing to it's that's a tough name to say deirdre i can't do it deirdre's house uh deirdre we don't know where amy is buried we don't have any information they kept that private deirdre is at the hilltop cemetery in mendham in morris county new jersey and james is in prison uh at this point he is eligible for parole on January 27th, 2038, when he is six months shy of his 90th birthday. He's eligible. Yeah. So good fucking luck. Good luck.

He ain't going to make it that long. No. 90 in prison? 90, nah. Nobody makes it there. Nah, it's a bad stuff. So here is, by the way, I won't't go over it but this is all the psychic stuff where they were like she said really that his name had a hard k in it um maybe she said it started with

k but she said he was eastern european not specifically polish it's pretty cool that's what i'm saying it was like she said it's got a k and that he's from eastern europe that's all she said yeah and he said that i think she said it ended with an ish, not an itch. Also, like stuff like that's like, dude, could you say that? That's amazing. She said, quote, she said he was Czech or Polish. And he says that she said more vague, quote, Eastern European descent, maybe Slavic or Russian or Romanian. These are really splitting hairs man i

mean that's pretty i'm i'm impressed that's pretty good i don't know if i believe any psychic shit but i'm certainly impressed that's pretty impressive that is hanover township new jersey really morristown and all that sort of stuff new jersey and that's honestly one of the most disturbing yeah fucking people ever that's. That's a bad man. That's a monster and a predator. You don't have to know him. He just has to find you and hunt you, basically, whether you're at work, where you think you're safe. You're in your car driving a mile from your house.

Right. And he'll come like, this is scary shit. My son likes to go on bike rides around the neighborhood with my daughter. And then he likes to ditch her and thinks it's funny. And I was like, no, motherfucker. Yeah. I'll choke you. Listen to this episode. episode listen to what happens you know what happens they disappear yeah you never get them back absolutely if you agree or if you don't agree either way

tell us about it apple podcast that purple icon we need the reviews they help well we don't need them but they help a lot they help drive us up the charts so why not help us out it's free the hell you gonna do give us five stars say something we don't give a shit what you say say how much you hated this guy that's fine he's awful say something about 1970 chevrolet tire tread but don't just say jj sucks because then people think you mean then you think it's us yeah yeah that's bad something polish so i love that from night shift name of the deceased something polish great movie so anyway uh do all of that thank you for doing that head over to shut up and give me murder.com right now for all of your small town murder needs all of your crime and sports needs uh you can get your tickets to virtual live show of course get

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twilight so listen to that shit as well because i watch twilight for you people come on help me out here to all of that follow us on social media as well we are at murder small on twitter at small town pod on facebook and at small town murder on instagram find us there you'll get all the updates new stuff and you know any new merch and funny stuff that comes around join all the groups groups. Those people are all fun. Talk about the shows. Oh, man. It's insane to see those groups grow like they do. It's cool. And people becoming friends.

Yeah. Over that? Over that. It's bananas. It is. It's wild, man. Thank you. Thank you so much.

So, also, if you want to be a Patreon supporter and get all sorts of bonus content and have your name mispronounced just like everyone's is going to be in a minute here you can do that very easily at patreon.com slash crime and sports you'll get access to all the bonus items for both shows crime and sports and small town murder this week on small town murder we are going to be doing the worst town reviews i can find basically and that's going to be so much fun finding awful town reviews and piecing them together and on and on crime and sports

is we're going to do the UWF which was a defunct wrestling company that was run by a lunatic coke addict maniac and I will talk about his very short run and very very colorful death we'll call it very unique and colorful death that

he had herb abrams in the uwf that's crime and sports worst town reviews i can possibly cultivate on small town murder you get all of that at patreon.com slash crime and sports and jimmy mispronounced your name if you just want to be a great person and be a producer and have your name mispronounced very easy way to do that also over at paypal using our email address crime and sports at gmail.com that said jimmy dammit i need need to hear the names of these people because that was just a lot of crazy stuff i need to hear good stuff hit me with the names of all the good stuff jimmy this week's executive producers are hayley coman rick Rick Giuliani, Danielle Garouge,

Jordan Bennett, Peter Chapman, Laura Howard, Jacob Magyar, Drew Bittner, Aaron Sayre, Kyle Juarez, Debbie Shaley, Karen Crank, Laura Aguilar, Teresa Cheatham, Donette Perry, Peter Mazzei, you know what it is, Joshua Broussard, and Rebecca Ruiz. That's what it is. Joshua Broussard and Rebecca Ruiz. That's what that is. Thank you guys so much, truly.

Other producers this week are James Marder, Peyton Meadows, Carl Kirshner, Michelle Lockhart, Gary Friedman, Zachary Bunea, Tracy Poets, Allie and Roy and Shane in North Carolina, Rabbi Shmuley Olavich. Dina McCord. Bacon Babes Boutique. Backin? I forget. Maybe it's Bacon. It's Tanner McCutcheon's Boutique.

That's what it is. She makes baby clothes. Oh, cool, cool. Lisa Tucker. No, not Bacon. I think it's Backin. It might be Bacon. It might be the town she lives in.

I don't know. It's the Babes Boutique is what it is. Well, thank you. Lisa Tucker. Tara Lathan. Samantha Anderson. William Chisholm. Maria Rasper, Joanne Ahern, Brooke Kale, Janice Hill, Susanna Platt, Patricia Winterbauer, Kaylee, nope, that's Kimberly, Radisky, oh, and it's her eight, she's eight years sober.

Congratulations. Hey, congrats. Hang in there. Stay on the path. Hell yeah. Laura Blakeslee, Lauren Benish, Brandon Benio, I think, Graham Wilding, Anita Martinez, happy birthday, Jessica Monroe, Tracy Lambert, Arias, and Darren Mehal. Happy birthday, guys. Happy birthday. Susan Olgis, Terry Johnston, Jennifer Lamb, Zane Holt, Thomas Smith, Aaron Ishiok.

Never going to get it. is Solpa. Solpa. Solpa. Cameron Smith in Australia. Tim Watson. Justin Garcia. Mary Jo Jenkins. Ali Sabola. Aaron B. Joe Hawk. Nicole Galo.

Gal. Oh, God damn it. Galvaney. Galvany. Galvany. Galvany. Sure. Erica Raleigh.

Kagan Randolph. Chase Cummins. Kimberly Owens Goldstein. Oscar Kochanski, Katero Lynette Crum, Audrey Tarr, Saria Milano, I think. Probably, you know who it is. Alyssa, Julia Olenek, Eric with no last name, Cassie Hewlin. What is this?

Colton Rose, Mike Vandenvond, Ali Riedel, Monica O'Leary, What is this? Anthony Hakala, Nicole Van Noland, Newland, Liz MMX, Noah Tolbert, Jay Hawkins, Anders, or Anders Hansen. It's probably Anders, right? I don't know. Workaholics, it was Anders. April would know last names. Space Warlock, Stephen Sharp, Jeremy Hinkle Running, Kelly Biggers, Brendan would know last name. Carly Boyd. Lily Binkus.

Amber Ray. Davana. Davana Cleary. Anastasia would know the last name. Blake Almond. Corey Adair. Tani. Tani.

Quady. What? Quady? Gentry. Mr. or Mrs. Gentry. That's who it is. Sarah Korbecki. John Gulley. Jasmine Fuse. Nija Clifry? That's who it is. Sarah Korbecki. John Gulley.

Jasmine Fuse. Nija Clifton. That's tough. Joseph Samuel. TJ Veiger. Jessica Walkowski. Cobra Clutch. Christine Huring.

John Miles. Charles Peterson. Carlos Fuentes. Janine M. Andy Gish. Tinkara Kristovich. Crystal Reed. Emmy Whitehouse. Jason Covert. Alila Alkaid. fuentes janine m andy gish tinkara kristovich uh crystal reed emmy whitehouse jason covert alila al-qaeda nope uh shane from detroit shanna house noni arnold what did you want to say to me i'm gonna say i don't i was just about to say i don't want to i don't want to spook you but

you're doing really well and just as i open my mouth you find out lily al-qaidi yeah it's like all right ronda with no last name lily curie curie onion fart what the fuck megan baugh sounds great william valencia chloe scott ryan ryan gaffney timothy timothy smith shelby and brad schweigle uh harrison lee heidi hauser jack cornelius Killian Leaf Kargan, Brad Anderson, Outdoor Mike, Melissa Martin, Kara Joseph, Mary Absher, Gabby or Gabby Malman. Why is Mike outdoors? I don't know. He just he's outdoors now.

He's outdoors now. Ursula Sabic, Becky Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen. Ty Broyles, Kaylin Hall, Lady Vand uh cameron aaron amy and nathan duke

shamus mooney jennifer krimmel yes krimmel uh tom l what leidner i put him on his face it could be tom l eidner it's probably leidner caitlin ligigon uh Andrea Connor Tangina Islam Amanda with no last name Jessica with no last name M Turner Olivia then I fucking how did I do this to your last name Cro-Cruz and Chiasano hey there it is look at you Sarah I don't know where you got that from Cruzan but you pulled it right out of your ass congratulations Sarah firestone haley with no last name benjamin ortiz tammy finally finnally uh kevin the tech ninja tyler moore eva evelyn sidoropoulos joseph murphy elliot walker ashley zabel michelle stymack spoop cast that's not her last name uh chris harrison mallory goats Mallory Goetz. Goetz. Goetz. There she goes. G-O-E-T-Z. Morgan Hess.

Cassara. Darren Parvar. Parvar. Yes. Adam with no last name. Emily Field. Ryan Brent. Davina Way.

Melanie Tamarind Hallstrom. Lori Ivey. Colleen Curry. Gino Baldurada. Baldurada. Me. Stephanie King King, Charles Branch, Gareth Hall, Jacob Van Sickle, Tay with no last name, Ryan Crocker, Teresa with no last name, Heidi Hoffman, Chris Willis, Kelly Fordham, Cola Noble, Heather Phillips, Kristen Mudrick, Jamie Daniel, Kristen Mudrick, Jamie Daniel, Kyler Mulland, Brian Keller, Stephanie Morky, no, Maury,

Sarah Worley, Sarah Kale, Zax, nope, that's ZX Saturn, or it's Zach Saturn. It might be his car. It might be Zach's Saturn. That's nice. Amy Marie, Max Winland, Jen Curry, Jamie Daniel. Save whatever you're giving us and get rid of that Saturn. But they don't even make those anymore. They don't make them.

They don't make the parts. Yeah, it's just for you. Anna Otto, Brian Keller, Kyler Molland. I said that. Ashley Clark, Sierra Varley, Samantha Benn, Jessica Lindsay, Sarah Booker, Danielle Rexidler, Joe Longhorn, Patrick with no last name, Taylor Kirkdorfer, Tara Lathan, Tamsin Andrews, Adriana with no last name, Kalina Lisey, Gary Spurr, Shanna Charles, Simon Maber, Aaron Perry, Steph with no last name, John Geiser, April Jennings, Monster FPV, I don't know what that is, Valerie Woods, Monique Eckert, Zett with no last name, Beth Castro, Don Polson, Goody Goodwin, Connor Sundstrom, Susan McLean, Terry Johnston, D-Minus, Cheryl Prater, Paul Boyle, Liz Cox, Lisa Cox. That's it. Brown, Abut0923, Brianna Foster, Elizabeth Cartwright, Sarah Hahn, Jorge Torres, Jeff Kisselstein, Kia Bolden, Gimbal LeGram, Lou Graham, Lou Graham, Shane Benner, Sarah Jane, Carrie Meyer, Ryan Craig, Dorian West, Darren Rhodes, Chrissy Tate, Susan Mor what the fuck moron gielo konick never i'll never get it right yeah ian woodhams christine eicholz uh dylan link elizabeth richard hayley hoffman kate and b uh cat and b miranda with no last name joni and max price uh justin

spruehl what did i do oh i't know. I've done something wrong. Spurville? What have I done? Leanne Kubiak. Beatrice Roman. Leah Russell. Annalisa Turner. Adam Jones.

Josh Robley. Katie Mancuso. Andrew Dobos. Desiree Dufresne. Samantha Jenkins. Courtney Geary. Adrian Wright. Allie Radcliffe, Calvin Gonder,

Misha White, Vanessa Lawson, Allie Munn, Lana Hazelwood, Jan Jans, Tara Lane, Kate Rourden, Jesus, Elizabeth Whitby, Richard Welsh, Morgan Metzger, Elizabeth, no last name, Jamie Miller, Jeffrey Hauser, yes, David Jackson, Nicole Powels. Pow-eels? I don't know what I did there. Oh, boy. Powers. Ryan Schills, Sarah Groob, Jessica Berry, Autumn Palmer, Jessica Garrison, Cheyenne Meadows, Mike Holbert, Sarah Conway, Rochelle Dobbs, Justin Joshua Meyer, Neil Halliwell, Emma Branaby, Katie Cakes, Allison Ream, Lanny110, I think, Karen Dane, Crystal Leanne, Teresa with no last name, Sammy Mazarly, Angie Jones, Corey with no last name, Karina Gierke, Homestretch, Lindsay Nelson, Molly Stapleton, Jay Lee, nope, Jay Lynn, A's, ass,mmy lee probably not the one uh ray bradway uh ashley

veneman ed o brandon cigars gem with no last name emily booms brady mullins adam rogers brendan brown kevin with no last name joe dawson charissa carissa evans matt brit deanna nope that's dina miller uh robin throckmorton keisha rammer Ramam, Ramam, Ramam, Ramam, Ramam, Keisha, Kaya, Kaya Daly, Amy Long, Courtney Padgett Snyder, Lori Matthew, Talberto, Connor with no last name, Colin McNulty, and Jen Holder, and all of our patrons. You guys are fantastic. Thank you so much. Thank you, everybody, so, so much so much honestly for everything you do for us we could do none of this without you and uh we're just blown away by your

support so thank you for everything and uh please keep supporting the show because otherwise we uh will not be able to eat right so thank you for all that you do you do all of it you do everything people text uh message and and say things like the like we do something amazing it's you guys thank you thank you everything and uh what if they wanted to say anything to you thank you for anything how could you do it on the internet at wisman sucks whisman sucks on twitter and instagram thank you guys truly it's it's it's incredible to see that we have facilitated babies being born that's crazy that's so weird there's people that have gotten married and had babies since they, because of our meeting

at our show. It's wild shit. Where can they tell you about this stuff? At Jimmy P is funny. Just copy and paste my name. You know how to look people up on the internet, everybody. So that said, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for spending 2020 with us and also hopefully all of 2021 with us here because

we're not going anywhere. That said, until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.